May 22, 2025 • 22 mins
We're diving into the nitty-gritty of financial stress and how grace can totally transform our approach to those money worries! You know the drill: bills piling up, that sinking feeling in your stomach, but guess what? We’re here to chat about how grace isn’t just a buzzword; it’s like a warm, fuzzy blanket that can wrap around your financial fears and say, “Chill out, buddy!” We’ll explore why those pesky financial anxieties are like the boogeyman lurking under your bed, and how digging deep can actually help us understand what’s really going on underneath all that stress. So, grab your favorite snack and get comfy, because we're about to unpack some serious life lessons while having a few laughs along the way!
Takeaways:
- In this episode, we dive deep into how grace impacts our financial worries and why it matters.
- We talk about the anxiety that creeps in when we can't pay our bills, and it's a real struggle for many.
- The guys share personal stories about their financial fears and how that connects to deeper issues in life.
- We realize that financial stress isn't just about money; it's about feelings of security and identity too!
- Grace helps us uncover the real reasons behind our anxiety and how to manage it effectively.
- At the end of the day, trusting in grace can lead to a happier, more fulfilled life, despite financial struggles.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
You're listening to the MisfitPreachers, Talian Chavigian, Jean
Larue and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.
Now here are the Misfits.
This is Misfit Preachers.
I'm privileged to be the hostof this dynamic exchange of brilliant
(00:24):
ideas.
On my right is Tullian Chavigiand grateful to be with you.
And on my left is, as always,Jean LaRue.
Hello.
III.
I just love to say it.
It just rolls off the soul.
It's a great name.
Jean says it is the best.
Say it.
Say it.
Say it like you said it whenyou preach and you did it in the
(00:46):
city.
Jean Francois Le Roux d' Trois.
Ah, Byron Yawn.
Just doesn't sounds like someanimal was being killed.
Stepped on a dog's squeaky toy.
Talian Chevidge.
It's very smooth.
Both of these feel very Mediterranean.
(01:07):
Byron Force.
Romantic.
Byron Force.
Seems like you crawled outsomewhere in Arkansas.
We're having greatconversations around how do we saturate
our lives with grace.
The reality of grace livewithin that sort of ecosphere.
And if you get in thatecosphere, if it hits home, if it
makes sense, the freedomthat's available to you to live is
(01:30):
pretty incredible.
Agreed.
It's a very incredibleexperience on the ground.
And so we're working throughsome particulars of life that come
at all of us that are oftencomplicated, painful, create anxiety,
depression, conflicts withother people.
These are the normal, nittygritty on the ground sort of reality.
(01:51):
So we're working through theseto make it practical.
Tully and I love the word practical.
Why do you guys pick on.
I didn't say that.
Look how defensive I was immediately.
We could just do this episodeon Jean being defensive.
I want you guys to think.
I need you guys to think I'm apractical guy, please.
Awesome.
I want the practicality trophy.
That seemed insincere.
(02:12):
You need to work on your delivery.
So one of the things we'regoing to talk about in this episode
and talk in categories aroundit as well, is how does grace work
when I can't pay my bills,like when there is financial struggle.
And now to set this up, Iwould argue that at the end of the
(02:35):
day, if you pulled away everystressor, every anxiety, everything
that troubles you, everythingthat keeps you up at night, and you
pulled all those things offand you got down to the baseline,
the baseline worry of yourlife, like the subterranean thread
of anxiety and stress that youhave, it's going to be financial
stress always there.
(02:57):
Even when you get toretirement and you've done all this
work, you get there, you haveyour savings, your pension, you're
on a fixed income, you getover the hill.
It's the same worry and anxiety.
I know for a lot of peoplethis is real.
It's, it.
Where's, how am I going to paythe bills next month?
(03:18):
The family's expensive, theeconomy is out there.
It's just a constant stressorfor us.
And it, and it creates in ussome anxiety that goes outward to
other people and can createconflict, conflict in ourselves.
So I posed the question hereto the two of you.
How does grace work when Icannot pay the bills?
I think it's important tostate at the outset that when this
(03:43):
subject comes up in religiouscircles, the way it's typically addressed
as a means of solving theproblem and calming the anxiety is
to simply say, you know, Jesuspromised that God close the lilies
(04:04):
of the field, that he providedmanna each and every day.
You know, for the Israelitesin the Old Testament, God is the
great provider, Jehovah Jireh,and our treasures are stored up in
heaven.
That is our great reward.
And it stops there.
I think I've actually preachedthat sermon.
(04:24):
I know I have.
I know I have.
And it, and it stops there.
And it's supposed to makeeverybody feel better.
When you say it stops there,you're affirming that those things
are true.
I'm affirming that thosethings, yeah, I'm affirming that
that is true.
But the, the simplisticconclusion that that is going to
make you feel better doesn'tget anywhere close to where we need
(04:48):
to go with this subject.
Yeah, because my response, ifI was sitting in the congregation
and you delivered that sermon,I walk out with one emotion, guilt
that I did not believe andtrust in God enough.
Right.
That's my only, my onlyresponse to that is, well, I guess
everybody else is trustingJesus, but I sure don't.
(05:09):
Do you think that's a commonresponse of people when they hear
those sorts of things?
If that's not your response tothat particular sermon, then the
other response is self righteousness.
Where you go, huh, thank theLord, it's health and wealth.
I've been trusting the Lord.
That's why I'm blessed.
Are we suggesting that thoseovertures don't pay the bills?
(05:29):
I'm not just saying they don'tpay the bills.
I'm saying when you get underthe surface and go, why does this
make me so anxious?
Why is my fear of not havingenough money or not being able to
pay the bills?
Why in the world is that there?
What is going on inside me indeep places that makes finances the
(05:53):
bottom line for my anxiety?
Why is it chase that for us?
Answer the question.
I was with Jenna, my daughter.
This was a conversation we hadmaybe five years ago.
So she was 17, 18 at the time.
Maybe it was before that.
Maybe she was 16.
(06:14):
But we were having aconversation, and we were talking
about fears.
And she said, my greatestfear, or one of my greatest fears
in life is that I will one daybe homeless.
And, you know, I kind of chuckled.
I'm like, honey, you've gotsuch a big family.
You've got so much.
I mean, if you never madeanother dime in your life, you're
(06:37):
never going to be homeless.
So I kind of explored thatwith her a little bit.
Like, why do you thinkhomelessness, you know, being poor,
Homelessness is the issue.
As we talked about it,dissected it, a lot of it went back
to her mom and I's divorce.
She felt safe, she felt secure.
(06:58):
She had a home, she had her people.
That was now splintered,split, broken up.
There was a deep insecuritythat was developed in her because
of that event.
And where she immediately wentwith that was homelessness, poverty.
She didn't grow up in poverty.
She never knew a day ofpoverty in her life.
(07:20):
But for whatever reason, thatwas the thing.
And so it wasn't primarilyabout the money.
It was something underneath it.
The idea, maybe even theassumption, that if I have enough
financial resources, I cancreate for myself a secure and stable
world that cannot be takenfrom me, that cannot be dissolved,
(07:42):
that cannot be fractured.
The way that my home was fractured.
I mean, certainly in thisparticular conversation, in that
particular case, you know,that's kind of where we went.
But I think you have that sameconversation with a handful of people.
They might not sayhomelessness, but, I mean, I know
one of my fears.
I'm 52, and I know that I'veprobably got maybe 15, maybe 20,
(08:09):
possibly earning years left.
And I've got money, and I'mnot rich, but I've got money in the
bank.
Bills are paid, you know,financially, fine.
And I spend an inordinateamount of time thinking about money
because I'm fearful that Ineed to make enough over the next
15 to 20 years to supply mewith what I need for the rest of
(08:33):
my life, however long, youknow, I live.
Where does that come fromwhere does that fear come from?
That's really the questionthat we're asking.
It's not so much about money.
It's how does grace.
How does grace allow us, giveus the space, the permission to explore
the why underneath the surface?
(08:55):
I totally agree with that.
Money, for me, is.
Is the barometer.
It's.
It's not the thing, but itexposes the thing.
It's diagnostic for me.
So my experience in the sameway is walking down the aisle at
Publix and you pass the catfood and what goes to your mind is,
(09:16):
I wonder what that flavortastes like.
Because you go, eventually I'mgoing to have to retire and this
is going to be dinner.
And then I go, I guess I'llhave to get a cat.
And the reason I'm going toget a cat is not because I like cats,
but because I'm too ashamedthat that's where life has gotten
to.
And at the root of the moneything is my identity, my ability
(09:39):
to be a provider, to be a goodperson, to be someone who's stable.
I mean, I have friends at 54who are now talking about retiring.
Yeah.
What I hate those people andwhat I feel in that is not an incredible
measure of joy for them.
(10:00):
I feel an incredible amount ofshame for me.
And along comes the gospelthat says, you are not the sum total
of the amalgamation of allyour previous employment or how the
stock market has done it isonly in your father who has declared
who you are in Christ in those things.
This same thing happened to me Saturday.
(10:24):
Went to lunch with my in laws.
The check comes.
I mean, we're this misfit.
I mean, like, this is astartup company, all those kind of
things.
And I thought to myself, if Idon't buy lunch, what would it look
like?
Look like, oh, great, so gladour daughter married.
You can't even take us out to lunch.
(10:46):
And immediately what I had tosay was, jean, this is not that.
This check on this table isnot the defining verdict of who you
are.
And it gave me the freedom tobuy lunch without wanting the good
job.
He's a good one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think there is a comfortfor me anyway, when I worry about
(11:11):
the future in knowing that Godhas me.
There is a deep comfort thatcomes when I consider the fact that.
Look at the lilies of thefield, birds of the air, the manna
for the day.
There is comfort in that.
So I'm not saying that stuffis irrelevant or that stuff doesn't
land.
(11:31):
It certainly does.
But I think what we try to doaround this table before we get to
the landing part is to diveunderneath the surface and go, what
is, is it about financial fearthat is so paralyzing?
Have you ever considered thatwhat Jesus is saying in those passages
(11:55):
is not, don't worry about yourcurrent standard of living.
I'm going to take care of it.
But you can live with a lotless than you currently have and
be happy and satisfied.
There's no question.
Now we in the west have atendency to layer our experience
(12:19):
on top of it.
Where, you know, broadlyspeaking, most of us, regardless
of what level of income wefear we're at below average, are
affluent compared to a lot ofplaces in the world.
There aren't people inCalcutta listening to this podcast.
Correct?
Correct.
I think Jesus was assailingthis fear.
(12:42):
I think he was exposing this fear.
I think he brought it up.
That's good because it wascommon, it's common among humanity.
And I think that fear is atthe base of our DNA of just that,
survival, our amygdala.
That's all it cares about.
Now in my experience, which Ishared in my interview and when I
(13:05):
told my story and got into thesituation that I was in and experienced
the situation that I was inwhich I'm kind of walking out now,
in the walking out experience,I realized that financial insecurity
has been with me my entire life.
My mom was a single mom, I wasa child moving from double wide trailers
(13:26):
to this hotel to thisapartment, to my grandparents house
and those sorts of adjustmentslaterally and that influenced my
perspective on things and it'salways been there.
And then I went into ministry,which you don't get wealthy.
It was a dumb idea.
And as I was looking at theforecast of the future wiped out
(13:49):
financially, I realized thatfinancial insecurity was a boogeyman
in my life and I was going tohave to sleep with the boogeyman
for a while and come to terms,not in some sort of flighty way of
faith.
I'm not worried about it.
God's just going to bring itto me.
I've worked hard, I'm workinghard, I'm doing what's necessary.
(14:11):
But it made me come face toface with that reality of me and
it made me push way down deep.
And what I discovered is thatmy concerns about financial insecurity
have how it haunts me.
And those sorts of things arereally me concerned about me in ways
that I never really consideredmy own personal earning power.
(14:34):
What skills do I really have?
I've been in ministry all ofmy life.
And guess what large Fortune500, Fortune 100 companies aren't
hiring a preacher to come inonce a week and paying the millions
of dollars.
And when you begin to dig in alittle deeper to those sorts of things,
you begin to realize, my faithis in me, in this space.
(15:04):
Do I play a role?
Yeah.
I mean, I have to work hard.
I have to do all those things.
But being sequestered in thatspace, I wouldn't say that the fear
is completely gone.
But when you mentioned Jennaand homelessness, I laughed because
some of the financialstruggles that I brought on myself
have taught me the greatest lessons.
(15:26):
That's why I circle back andsay, I think what Jesus was saying
is, you can live with a lot less.
I agree with that.
And be at peace.
I agree with that.
And be at peace with yourself.
That's a lesson that has beenextremely valuable to me.
Now, if you can find anotherway to find that sort of emotional
stability in your life, Ihighly recommend that you do it.
(15:49):
But they say in the recoveryworld that there is a gift of desperation.
And the gift of desperation isexactly what I described.
It pushed me down into thedeep, deep sinews of my struggle.
And there is a curse ofblessing, and the curse of blessing
is the affluence that coversup what these deep struggles are.
I don't know if any of thatdiatribe makes sense, but I've.
(16:12):
I've kind of lived this inreal time.
Absolutely.
I totally.
It makes perfect sense.
Yeah.
I mean, I think faith inourselves has been a problem since
Genesis chapter three, sincethe fall of Adam and Eve.
I mean, we have been wantingto play God in every area of our
(16:35):
life.
And because it's a job that'stoo big for us, way above our pay
grade, we fail all the time.
And the failure to be the Godthat only God can be generates a
significant amount of stressand anxiety.
It's what Martin Luther calledthe life of an unhappy God.
That's us.
(16:56):
And our stresses and ouranxieties are ultimately fueled by
the fact that we can't be God,but we're trying.
And it's.
It's utterly.
That's such a great referenceof Genesis 3, because it really is
utterly in our DNA that intoil and labor that we.
(17:17):
We, the ground will producefor us part of the curse.
So part of the curse is.
Is that we.
Oh, you want to do it for yourself?
Okay, well, this.
This is going to be a burden.
And, you know, I think as wethink about that, as we Think about
how these things apply to ourselves.
I was in a men's Bible study.
One guy was complaining about finances.
(17:37):
I just wish God would stopteaching me lessons with my finances.
And so we're done with theBible study.
The guy was leading.
It started to pray.
And the guy's name was David,and he was praying for David.
And he said, lord, we praythat you would begin to heal David's
finances and teach him lessonswith his health instead of money.
And the guy's like, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa.
(17:59):
And all of a sudden, it justreally crystallized, like, okay,
maybe I should pay attentionto this.
Yeah.
Because the arguments thatScripture is making about the lilies
of the field and all thosethings are from the lesser to the
greater.
Yeah.
If.
If you watch a bird land on alimb today with a.
With a worm in its mouth, howmuch more about God saying, trust
(18:20):
me, trust me, trust me?
Yeah.
And there is a greatliberation in literally having nothing
to lose.
There's a great liberationhaving nothing to lose.
And I think we said in theprevious episode that being around
other people is a laboratoryof self awareness.
Finances is the same way.
And there are four windows of awareness.
(18:42):
There's what I know about you,and you know about you at the same
time.
You're Jean Larue.
You're my friend.
There's what you know aboutyou, but I don't know about you.
And some of that stuff youdon't even really know yourself.
You haven't discovered it, butonly you know that.
And then there's what God only knows.
Right.
The most powerful window inthat pain of self awareness is what
(19:06):
others know about me, but I don't.
That I can't see.
And when you're pointingthings out to me about my life, if
I'm secure enough in Christand can receive it, it will radically
liberate me if I can receiveit in the right way.
Are you saying, like, I lovewhat you're saying?
Are you saying that.
That money or our relationshipto it can serve.
(19:28):
Yes.
As the fourth window, really a mirror?
Yes, it is.
It is exposure in what I don'tsee of myself.
Yep.
And it walks into my life andgoes, byron, what.
What are you worried about?
How much hubris do you have topossess to fear not having as much
(19:56):
as other people have?
I mean, that's kind of theconfrontation that it takes.
Can you not.
Because ultimately, and forme, at least in this space, to not
be wealthy any longer, to nothave the resources that I used to
have, where it really hits meis in my pride.
Comparison.
Oh, by comparison, for sure.
(20:17):
And that's.
That's like.
And the little things.
Because I lost big too.
I don't have what I used to have.
And my inability to do certainthings that I used to be able to.
Even good things.
You know, my grandkids needhelp with paying their, you know,
Christian school tuition.
They don't have to go to aChristian school.
(20:37):
We've decided we want.
Want them to go to one.
But it requires, you know,requires the help of the family to
make that happen.
Can I make an observation?
I hate to interrupt you, butthis is true for, for us, all of
us.
I think what I'm.
The bank account that I'mconcerned about there is not financial.
(20:59):
It's the loss of socialcapital that I had that served me.
Yeah.
In the preservation of finances.
That's what I lost, justifiedme, validated me.
And it was a means to myfinancial security.
And it is, it.
It evaporated.
That's the type of awareness.
It's a great conversation.
(21:20):
Guys.
I want to hear the rest ofwhat he was saying.
I don't remember what I was saying.
About the Christian school foryour grandkids.
Yeah.
I mean that.
So the issue is like, okay, Iwant to be able to provide this.
I don't have the resources Iused to have or I'd pay the whole
bill myself.
That wouldn't be an issue.
I can help pay the bill, but Iwant to be.
I want to be able to do thatand that can serve them.
(21:42):
And I can walk away thinking Ireally want to do a good thing here.
But then I dive a little bitdeeper and I go, why do I want to
be the guy to pay the bills?
It's not just so that they canget a Christian school education,
a private school education.
It's because I want to be a savior.
I want my grandkids to look tome and like and think.
Tutu will take care of any andevery problem I have.
(22:04):
As long as Tutu is around, I'msafe, I'm sound, I'm protected as
long as.
So it's.
It is a form of justificationby works.
That is sobering.
Thanks guys.
I'm gonna go.
Repent immediately.
Foreign, you've been listeningto the Misfit preachers.
(22:28):
Like subscribe and share moregrace centered resources@prodigalpodcasts.com
that's Prodigal P R O D I G AL podcasts with an s dot com.
You're listening to the MisfitPreachers, Talian Chavigian, Jean
Larue and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.
Now here are the Misfits.
This is Misfit Preachers.
I'm privileged to be the hostof this dynamic exchange of brilliant
(00:24):
ideas.
On my right is Tullian Chavigiand grateful to be with you.
And on my left is, as always,Jean LaRue.
Hello.
III.
I just love to say it.
It just rolls off the soul.
It's a great name.
Jean says it is the best.
Say it.
Say it.
Say it like you said it whenyou preach and you did it in the
(00:46):
city.
Jean Francois Le Roux d' Trois.
Ah, Byron Yawn.
Just doesn't sounds like someanimal was being killed.
Stepped on a dog's squeaky toy.
Talian Chevidge.
It's very smooth.
Both of these feel very Mediterranean.
(01:07):
Byron Force.
Romantic.
Byron Force.
Seems like you crawled outsomewhere in Arkansas.
We're having greatconversations around how do we saturate
our lives with grace.
The reality of grace livewithin that sort of ecosphere.
And if you get in thatecosphere, if it hits home, if it
makes sense, the freedomthat's available to you to live is
(01:30):
pretty incredible.
Agreed.
It's a very incredibleexperience on the ground.
And so we're working throughsome particulars of life that come
at all of us that are oftencomplicated, painful, create anxiety,
depression, conflicts withother people.
These are the normal, nittygritty on the ground sort of reality.
(01:51):
So we're working through theseto make it practical.
Tully and I love the word practical.
Why do you guys pick on.
I didn't say that.
Look how defensive I was immediately.
We could just do this episodeon Jean being defensive.
I want you guys to think.
I need you guys to think I'm apractical guy, please.
Awesome.
I want the practicality trophy.
That seemed insincere.
(02:12):
You need to work on your delivery.
So one of the things we'regoing to talk about in this episode
and talk in categories aroundit as well, is how does grace work
when I can't pay my bills,like when there is financial struggle.
And now to set this up, Iwould argue that at the end of the
(02:35):
day, if you pulled away everystressor, every anxiety, everything
that troubles you, everythingthat keeps you up at night, and you
pulled all those things offand you got down to the baseline,
the baseline worry of yourlife, like the subterranean thread
of anxiety and stress that youhave, it's going to be financial
stress always there.
(02:57):
Even when you get toretirement and you've done all this
work, you get there, you haveyour savings, your pension, you're
on a fixed income, you getover the hill.
It's the same worry and anxiety.
I know for a lot of peoplethis is real.
It's, it.
Where's, how am I going to paythe bills next month?
(03:18):
The family's expensive, theeconomy is out there.
It's just a constant stressorfor us.
And it, and it creates in ussome anxiety that goes outward to
other people and can createconflict, conflict in ourselves.
So I posed the question hereto the two of you.
How does grace work when Icannot pay the bills?
I think it's important tostate at the outset that when this
(03:43):
subject comes up in religiouscircles, the way it's typically addressed
as a means of solving theproblem and calming the anxiety is
to simply say, you know, Jesuspromised that God close the lilies
(04:04):
of the field, that he providedmanna each and every day.
You know, for the Israelitesin the Old Testament, God is the
great provider, Jehovah Jireh,and our treasures are stored up in
heaven.
That is our great reward.
And it stops there.
I think I've actually preachedthat sermon.
(04:24):
I know I have.
I know I have.
And it, and it stops there.
And it's supposed to makeeverybody feel better.
When you say it stops there,you're affirming that those things
are true.
I'm affirming that thosethings, yeah, I'm affirming that
that is true.
But the, the simplisticconclusion that that is going to
make you feel better doesn'tget anywhere close to where we need
(04:48):
to go with this subject.
Yeah, because my response, ifI was sitting in the congregation
and you delivered that sermon,I walk out with one emotion, guilt
that I did not believe andtrust in God enough.
Right.
That's my only, my onlyresponse to that is, well, I guess
everybody else is trustingJesus, but I sure don't.
(05:09):
Do you think that's a commonresponse of people when they hear
those sorts of things?
If that's not your response tothat particular sermon, then the
other response is self righteousness.
Where you go, huh, thank theLord, it's health and wealth.
I've been trusting the Lord.
That's why I'm blessed.
Are we suggesting that thoseovertures don't pay the bills?
(05:29):
I'm not just saying they don'tpay the bills.
I'm saying when you get underthe surface and go, why does this
make me so anxious?
Why is my fear of not havingenough money or not being able to
pay the bills?
Why in the world is that there?
What is going on inside me indeep places that makes finances the
(05:53):
bottom line for my anxiety?
Why is it chase that for us?
Answer the question.
I was with Jenna, my daughter.
This was a conversation we hadmaybe five years ago.
So she was 17, 18 at the time.
Maybe it was before that.
Maybe she was 16.
(06:14):
But we were having aconversation, and we were talking
about fears.
And she said, my greatestfear, or one of my greatest fears
in life is that I will one daybe homeless.
And, you know, I kind of chuckled.
I'm like, honey, you've gotsuch a big family.
You've got so much.
I mean, if you never madeanother dime in your life, you're
(06:37):
never going to be homeless.
So I kind of explored thatwith her a little bit.
Like, why do you thinkhomelessness, you know, being poor,
Homelessness is the issue.
As we talked about it,dissected it, a lot of it went back
to her mom and I's divorce.
She felt safe, she felt secure.
(06:58):
She had a home, she had her people.
That was now splintered,split, broken up.
There was a deep insecuritythat was developed in her because
of that event.
And where she immediately wentwith that was homelessness, poverty.
She didn't grow up in poverty.
She never knew a day ofpoverty in her life.
(07:20):
But for whatever reason, thatwas the thing.
And so it wasn't primarilyabout the money.
It was something underneath it.
The idea, maybe even theassumption, that if I have enough
financial resources, I cancreate for myself a secure and stable
world that cannot be takenfrom me, that cannot be dissolved,
(07:42):
that cannot be fractured.
The way that my home was fractured.
I mean, certainly in thisparticular conversation, in that
particular case, you know,that's kind of where we went.
But I think you have that sameconversation with a handful of people.
They might not sayhomelessness, but, I mean, I know
one of my fears.
I'm 52, and I know that I'veprobably got maybe 15, maybe 20,
(08:09):
possibly earning years left.
And I've got money, and I'mnot rich, but I've got money in the
bank.
Bills are paid, you know,financially, fine.
And I spend an inordinateamount of time thinking about money
because I'm fearful that Ineed to make enough over the next
15 to 20 years to supply mewith what I need for the rest of
(08:33):
my life, however long, youknow, I live.
Where does that come fromwhere does that fear come from?
That's really the questionthat we're asking.
It's not so much about money.
It's how does grace.
How does grace allow us, giveus the space, the permission to explore
the why underneath the surface?
(08:55):
I totally agree with that.
Money, for me, is.
Is the barometer.
It's.
It's not the thing, but itexposes the thing.
It's diagnostic for me.
So my experience in the sameway is walking down the aisle at
Publix and you pass the catfood and what goes to your mind is,
(09:16):
I wonder what that flavortastes like.
Because you go, eventually I'mgoing to have to retire and this
is going to be dinner.
And then I go, I guess I'llhave to get a cat.
And the reason I'm going toget a cat is not because I like cats,
but because I'm too ashamedthat that's where life has gotten
to.
And at the root of the moneything is my identity, my ability
(09:39):
to be a provider, to be a goodperson, to be someone who's stable.
I mean, I have friends at 54who are now talking about retiring.
Yeah.
What I hate those people andwhat I feel in that is not an incredible
measure of joy for them.
(10:00):
I feel an incredible amount ofshame for me.
And along comes the gospelthat says, you are not the sum total
of the amalgamation of allyour previous employment or how the
stock market has done it isonly in your father who has declared
who you are in Christ in those things.
This same thing happened to me Saturday.
(10:24):
Went to lunch with my in laws.
The check comes.
I mean, we're this misfit.
I mean, like, this is astartup company, all those kind of
things.
And I thought to myself, if Idon't buy lunch, what would it look
like?
Look like, oh, great, so gladour daughter married.
You can't even take us out to lunch.
(10:46):
And immediately what I had tosay was, jean, this is not that.
This check on this table isnot the defining verdict of who you
are.
And it gave me the freedom tobuy lunch without wanting the good
job.
He's a good one.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think there is a comfortfor me anyway, when I worry about
(11:11):
the future in knowing that Godhas me.
There is a deep comfort thatcomes when I consider the fact that.
Look at the lilies of thefield, birds of the air, the manna
for the day.
There is comfort in that.
So I'm not saying that stuffis irrelevant or that stuff doesn't
land.
(11:31):
It certainly does.
But I think what we try to doaround this table before we get to
the landing part is to diveunderneath the surface and go, what
is, is it about financial fearthat is so paralyzing?
Have you ever considered thatwhat Jesus is saying in those passages
(11:55):
is not, don't worry about yourcurrent standard of living.
I'm going to take care of it.
But you can live with a lotless than you currently have and
be happy and satisfied.
There's no question.
Now we in the west have atendency to layer our experience
(12:19):
on top of it.
Where, you know, broadlyspeaking, most of us, regardless
of what level of income wefear we're at below average, are
affluent compared to a lot ofplaces in the world.
There aren't people inCalcutta listening to this podcast.
Correct?
Correct.
I think Jesus was assailingthis fear.
(12:42):
I think he was exposing this fear.
I think he brought it up.
That's good because it wascommon, it's common among humanity.
And I think that fear is atthe base of our DNA of just that,
survival, our amygdala.
That's all it cares about.
Now in my experience, which Ishared in my interview and when I
(13:05):
told my story and got into thesituation that I was in and experienced
the situation that I was inwhich I'm kind of walking out now,
in the walking out experience,I realized that financial insecurity
has been with me my entire life.
My mom was a single mom, I wasa child moving from double wide trailers
(13:26):
to this hotel to thisapartment, to my grandparents house
and those sorts of adjustmentslaterally and that influenced my
perspective on things and it'salways been there.
And then I went into ministry,which you don't get wealthy.
It was a dumb idea.
And as I was looking at theforecast of the future wiped out
(13:49):
financially, I realized thatfinancial insecurity was a boogeyman
in my life and I was going tohave to sleep with the boogeyman
for a while and come to terms,not in some sort of flighty way of
faith.
I'm not worried about it.
God's just going to bring itto me.
I've worked hard, I'm workinghard, I'm doing what's necessary.
(14:11):
But it made me come face toface with that reality of me and
it made me push way down deep.
And what I discovered is thatmy concerns about financial insecurity
have how it haunts me.
And those sorts of things arereally me concerned about me in ways
that I never really consideredmy own personal earning power.
(14:34):
What skills do I really have?
I've been in ministry all ofmy life.
And guess what large Fortune500, Fortune 100 companies aren't
hiring a preacher to come inonce a week and paying the millions
of dollars.
And when you begin to dig in alittle deeper to those sorts of things,
you begin to realize, my faithis in me, in this space.
(15:04):
Do I play a role?
Yeah.
I mean, I have to work hard.
I have to do all those things.
But being sequestered in thatspace, I wouldn't say that the fear
is completely gone.
But when you mentioned Jennaand homelessness, I laughed because
some of the financialstruggles that I brought on myself
have taught me the greatest lessons.
(15:26):
That's why I circle back andsay, I think what Jesus was saying
is, you can live with a lot less.
I agree with that.
And be at peace.
I agree with that.
And be at peace with yourself.
That's a lesson that has beenextremely valuable to me.
Now, if you can find anotherway to find that sort of emotional
stability in your life, Ihighly recommend that you do it.
(15:49):
But they say in the recoveryworld that there is a gift of desperation.
And the gift of desperation isexactly what I described.
It pushed me down into thedeep, deep sinews of my struggle.
And there is a curse ofblessing, and the curse of blessing
is the affluence that coversup what these deep struggles are.
I don't know if any of thatdiatribe makes sense, but I've.
(16:12):
I've kind of lived this inreal time.
Absolutely.
I totally.
It makes perfect sense.
Yeah.
I mean, I think faith inourselves has been a problem since
Genesis chapter three, sincethe fall of Adam and Eve.
I mean, we have been wantingto play God in every area of our
(16:35):
life.
And because it's a job that'stoo big for us, way above our pay
grade, we fail all the time.
And the failure to be the Godthat only God can be generates a
significant amount of stressand anxiety.
It's what Martin Luther calledthe life of an unhappy God.
That's us.
(16:56):
And our stresses and ouranxieties are ultimately fueled by
the fact that we can't be God,but we're trying.
And it's.
It's utterly.
That's such a great referenceof Genesis 3, because it really is
utterly in our DNA that intoil and labor that we.
(17:17):
We, the ground will producefor us part of the curse.
So part of the curse is.
Is that we.
Oh, you want to do it for yourself?
Okay, well, this.
This is going to be a burden.
And, you know, I think as wethink about that, as we Think about
how these things apply to ourselves.
I was in a men's Bible study.
One guy was complaining about finances.
(17:37):
I just wish God would stopteaching me lessons with my finances.
And so we're done with theBible study.
The guy was leading.
It started to pray.
And the guy's name was David,and he was praying for David.
And he said, lord, we praythat you would begin to heal David's
finances and teach him lessonswith his health instead of money.
And the guy's like, whoa,whoa, whoa, whoa.
(17:59):
And all of a sudden, it justreally crystallized, like, okay,
maybe I should pay attentionto this.
Yeah.
Because the arguments thatScripture is making about the lilies
of the field and all thosethings are from the lesser to the
greater.
Yeah.
If.
If you watch a bird land on alimb today with a.
With a worm in its mouth, howmuch more about God saying, trust
(18:20):
me, trust me, trust me?
Yeah.
And there is a greatliberation in literally having nothing
to lose.
There's a great liberationhaving nothing to lose.
And I think we said in theprevious episode that being around
other people is a laboratoryof self awareness.
Finances is the same way.
And there are four windows of awareness.
(18:42):
There's what I know about you,and you know about you at the same
time.
You're Jean Larue.
You're my friend.
There's what you know aboutyou, but I don't know about you.
And some of that stuff youdon't even really know yourself.
You haven't discovered it, butonly you know that.
And then there's what God only knows.
Right.
The most powerful window inthat pain of self awareness is what
(19:06):
others know about me, but I don't.
That I can't see.
And when you're pointingthings out to me about my life, if
I'm secure enough in Christand can receive it, it will radically
liberate me if I can receiveit in the right way.
Are you saying, like, I lovewhat you're saying?
Are you saying that.
That money or our relationshipto it can serve.
(19:28):
Yes.
As the fourth window, really a mirror?
Yes, it is.
It is exposure in what I don'tsee of myself.
Yep.
And it walks into my life andgoes, byron, what.
What are you worried about?
How much hubris do you have topossess to fear not having as much
(19:56):
as other people have?
I mean, that's kind of theconfrontation that it takes.
Can you not.
Because ultimately, and forme, at least in this space, to not
be wealthy any longer, to nothave the resources that I used to
have, where it really hits meis in my pride.
Comparison.
Oh, by comparison, for sure.
(20:17):
And that's.
That's like.
And the little things.
Because I lost big too.
I don't have what I used to have.
And my inability to do certainthings that I used to be able to.
Even good things.
You know, my grandkids needhelp with paying their, you know,
Christian school tuition.
They don't have to go to aChristian school.
(20:37):
We've decided we want.
Want them to go to one.
But it requires, you know,requires the help of the family to
make that happen.
Can I make an observation?
I hate to interrupt you, butthis is true for, for us, all of
us.
I think what I'm.
The bank account that I'mconcerned about there is not financial.
(20:59):
It's the loss of socialcapital that I had that served me.
Yeah.
In the preservation of finances.
That's what I lost, justifiedme, validated me.
And it was a means to myfinancial security.
And it is, it.
It evaporated.
That's the type of awareness.
It's a great conversation.
(21:20):
Guys.
I want to hear the rest ofwhat he was saying.
I don't remember what I was saying.
About the Christian school foryour grandkids.
Yeah.
I mean that.
So the issue is like, okay, Iwant to be able to provide this.
I don't have the resources Iused to have or I'd pay the whole
bill myself.
That wouldn't be an issue.
I can help pay the bill, but Iwant to be.
I want to be able to do thatand that can serve them.
(21:42):
And I can walk away thinking Ireally want to do a good thing here.
But then I dive a little bitdeeper and I go, why do I want to
be the guy to pay the bills?
It's not just so that they canget a Christian school education,
a private school education.
It's because I want to be a savior.
I want my grandkids to look tome and like and think.
Tutu will take care of any andevery problem I have.
(22:04):
As long as Tutu is around, I'msafe, I'm sound, I'm protected as
long as.
So it's.
It is a form of justificationby works.
That is sobering.
Thanks guys.
I'm gonna go.
Repent immediately.
Foreign, you've been listeningto the Misfit preachers.
(22:28):
Like subscribe and share moregrace centered resources@prodigalpodcasts.com
that's Prodigal P R O D I G AL podcasts with an s dot com.
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