January 23, 2025 • 16 mins
Join three former pastors as they dive deep into the messy reality of life and the overwhelming grace of God. They candidly discuss how the most broken individuals—those who feel like total failures—are exactly the ones Jesus came to embrace. From personal struggles to societal expectations, the conversation navigates the tension between self-condemnation and the liberating power of grace. With humor and honesty, they explore how failure can be a painful form of suffering, yet also a stepping stone to new freedom. This episode is a heartfelt invitation to anyone feeling lost or ashamed, reminding them that true belonging is found in embracing our imperfections together.
Takeaways:
- The shame and isolation experienced by those who fall from grace can lead them to despair and, tragically, even suicide.
- Honesty about our struggles is the key to recognizing our shared humanity and breaking down the barriers of isolation.
- We often anchor our identities in our failures, making it difficult to see ourselves apart from our mistakes.
- God's grace is a liberating force, inviting us to redefine our understanding of suffering and punishment.
- It's crucial to approach those in pain not with judgment, but by being present and offering compassion.
- The belief in karma can overshadow the truth of grace, making it hard to accept forgiveness and healing.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Ashley Madison
- Sampson Society
- Prodigal Podcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
There's a pastor that I knew,and he was in a church that would
be considered conservativeBible teaching and preaching.
And then Ashley Madison camein tonight.
Millions of names, credit cardnumbers, and.
Other information from thecheater website AshleyMadison.com
has been leaked by hackers andhis name made it to the list.
By sundown, the gallows werebeing built.
(00:22):
The shame drove him at the endof it to take his own life.
Living alone, disconnectedfrom family, disconnected from church,
disconnected from everyone.
And he said, they're done with me.
I'm done with you.
The suffering you are goingthrough is God kicking you into a
new frame.
Because if you get to thepoint, like I was, like we all were,
where we were ready to takeour lives in the darkest moment.
(00:46):
The reason is because we haveso anchored our identity in whatever
it is we're losing.
Failure is also a form of suffering.
It's the self inflicted kind,but suffering nonetheless.
And it's unlike the thingsthat happen to you because in that
case, people are bringing youcasseroles and in this case, they
(01:08):
just want you to disappear.
You're listening to the misfitpreachers, Talian Chavigian, Jean
Larue and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.
Now here are the misfits.
A person needs to payattention to their surprise at another
(01:33):
person's failure.
Yes, well said.
Because that is an indicatorthat we're fooling ourselves about
who we actually are.
Yeah, that you, you make thesein your mind, you have these projections
of future moral successes Iwould never like I'm now projecting
(01:57):
out to me from here to my funeral.
I shall never.
Don't write that sentence.
I think to your point, whathappens is the great equalizer here
is honesty.
Because when people arehonest, they're the same.
And what happened, thedissonance that happens is people
(02:19):
aren't honest.
So I'm faking it.
This person's doing this.
And so now I'm forced to be honest.
Body cam, whatever it is, itall comes out.
And the other people, all of asudden they realize there are other
honest people, right, who arehonest about their struggle.
I have a friend who says, youknow, normal is just a setting on
the dryer.
The only, the only normalpeople you know are the ones you
(02:41):
don't know too well.
The conversation made me thinkabout, there's a pastor that I knew
and he was in a church thatwas, would be considered conservative,
would have been consideredBible teaching.
And preaching would have beenconsidered historically conservative.
It would have been very clearin terms of expectations, other things
(03:06):
like that.
And then Ashley Madison cameout, and what was being portrayed
as Christian piety ormoralism, whatever here was not consistent.
And his name made it to the list.
Yeah.
And by sundown, the gallowswere being built.
(03:27):
Yeah.
By Christian people.
Correct.
And there were many, to befair, who loved.
Well, reached out.
Me too.
All that, the shame that couldnot be born, drove him at the end
of it, to take his own life.
(03:49):
Living alone, disconnectedfrom family, disconnected from church,
disconnected from everyone.
And he said, they're done with me.
I'm done with me.
And that's why what Paul's allsaid to me was so helpful, that the
suffering you are goingthrough is God kicking you into a
new freedom.
Because if you get to thepoint, like, I was like, like we
(04:09):
all were, where we were readyto take our lives in the.
In the darkest moment.
Yep.
The reason is because we haveso anchored our identity in whatever
it is we're losing that wedon't know who we are without this
thing or without these peopleor this reputation or whatever.
(04:30):
And that means we're enslavedto it.
Yep.
So that's why Paul's carefullyworded sentence was so liberating
to me.
And for the first time, I sawlight peering through the clouds.
And I had this aha moment.
Oh, okay.
So God's not punishing me as aresult of this.
(04:52):
He's setting me free becauseof this.
Right.
And that changed everythingfor me.
It made me see the painfulprocess that was ahead of me as a
good thing and not a punitivething, a helpful thing, not a hurtful
thing thing.
And.
And I think the reason a lotof people don't end up sort of walking
(05:14):
that road is because theybelieve that God is who they told
us he was.
God is punitive.
God is angry.
God is punishing me.
God doesn't like me as much ashe did yesterday.
He's getting even.
Right?
He's getting even.
He wants his pound of flesh.
We, I firmly believe wenaturally, we believe in karma, not
(05:38):
grace.
Absolutely.
You break it, you buy it.
There's no question thatthat's how this thing works.
There is no question.
There is no question.
No question.
The.
The Freddie Mercury quote.
I found it.
It's actually let me do itaccurately this time because I think
it's even better in that scenefrom Bohemian Rhapsody.
He looks at the recordexecutive and says, when the record
executive says, why should wesign you?
(05:59):
This is what he says, we arefour misfits who don't belong together
and we're playing for other misfits.
They're the outcasts at theback of the room.
We're pretty sure they don'tbelong either.
We belong to them.
And I'm like, that's this.
Yeah, that's this.
That's exactly what this is.
When you.
When the experience that youwent through and you went through
(06:21):
of coming to the realizationthat at least this is how I framed
it in my own mind and havecategorized it, that failure is also
a form of suffering.
Absolutely.
It's the self inflicted kind,but suffering nonetheless.
And it's unlike the thingsthat happen to you because in that
(06:43):
case, people are bringing youcasseroles and in this case they
just want you to disappear.
And it was when I got my mindaround, oh, I had the same epiphany
experience that and like myattitude flipped.
(07:03):
It's.
I was in that dark moment downthat hallway contemplating, I'm done,
I'm worthless, I'm out.
Nobody loves me.
What I'm just taking.
I'm just burning oxygen onthis planet.
But it was in that I had toget to that point to just give up
and, and drop the idols andwhat my identity was then.
(07:25):
And it stripped me of all that.
And I remember the line ineast of Eden, which is like the line
of that book and a lot ofliterature where a character has
failed.
If you know the story andthere's a line that comes, oh, good,
now that you don't know that,you know, you don't have to be perfect.
Go be good.
(07:46):
Yeah, like there's a giganticparadigm shift.
I showed you the pic.
I mean, I can remember in the,in the days leading up to my court
case, I showed you the picture.
I sketched.
I grew up drawing artistic.
And I remember sitting in themiddle of a field in a state park
(08:07):
outside of Nashville with asketchbook and I had sat down to
ostensibly like, okay, let'stotally 180 degrees.
I grew up as an artist.
I'm going to draw the trees ora little boat on the water, whatever.
And I ended up sketching thispicture of a naked man with his hands
down and his face on theground and darkness all around him
(08:30):
and in the middle of asunshiny feel.
And that's what I'm thismacabre picture.
And I was like, that's how I feel.
There are dogs walking by,people throwing Frisbees, and Schroeder
is.
Has got the.
The one rain Cloud above his head.
Lightning.
God is punishing me.
I shall die here.
And there are people out theresketching that picture right now.
(08:52):
Yeah.
They're looking at picturesthrough their phone, and they go,
I remember when I used to be happy.
I remember when life used tobe good.
And.
And they finished the sentenceuntil I destroyed it.
And the karma kicks in, and Ibelieve I deserve it.
Yeah.
And I should be alone, and Ishould be discarded, and I should
(09:14):
be unwanted, and I should be abandoned.
And even though we love Grace,believe in it, want other people
to love it and believe in it.
I still do that all the time.
Every single time one of myadult kids goes through something
difficult and painful in theirpersonal lives, whether it's my oldest
(09:37):
son, Gabe, my middle son,Nate, or my daughter Jenna.
Every time my internal,immediate reaction is, I did this
to them.
They're suffering because ofwhat I have done.
And there's a part of thatthat's true.
Their lives were set on adifferent course.
But the self condemnation,that comes instinctively, naturally,
(09:57):
when they're struggling or.
I have three grandsons, andwe're trying to get them.
We were trying to get theminto a different school, which was
expensive.
And I'm sitting theredepressed as all get out on a Sunday
afternoon.
And Stacy was like, what's the matter?
And I'm like, I blew it.
I blew it.
She said, what do you mean?
(10:17):
And I said, I blew it.
Like, I had all of theresources I needed to be able to
get my grand boys into this school.
I had the connections.
I had the financial resources.
All I would have had to do 10years ago is make a phone call, and
these boys would have been atthe top of the list and in class.
And I said, I blew that.
(10:39):
My grandkids are now sufferingbecause of what I did.
So it is.
The karmic mindset is deeplyingrained in all of us.
My frame is.
That's really, really powerful.
My frame is bent this way.
Yeah.
And if I take the hands of.
Grace off the wheel, it'll gonaturally into the ditch.
(11:01):
And I hear that rumble stripon the side.
Mm.
And I.
I kind of know that I'm there,and I just have to shake myself out
of it and put Grace back inthe seat and.
And get myself back over there.
But it's a constant battle,especially with all the circumstances
that.
That we face now.
We're not saying there aren't earthly.
(11:22):
Oh, my gosh.
The horizontal consequencesare real, and we're living proof
of that.
You don't want them A.
It's a simple math, right?
You do this, the point will happen.
Like, I think it's so helpful.
Cuz we're not fixed.
No.
And that's the.
A week and a half ago, I got a haircut.
It was the second one by thesame lady who had cut it a week earlier.
(11:43):
And it was just.
We.
I mean, I'm.
It's not great, but it was.
It's much better than it was.
Can I tell people how much Iwish I had your hair?
Yes.
I mean, look at it.
Please do.
Okay, go ahead.
Can we start the fan with afan blow?
But you want my hair?
I got hat head.
You want my hair?
Oh gosh, I love it.
No, I want.
And so.
So this woman, I went and Isaid, can you do this?
And so she fixed it.
(12:04):
And this sweet lady who'solive branch, Mississippi, at a strip
mall haircut place.
I mean, nothing fancy about it.
And I got up and I said, okay,I'll venmo you.
She goes, no, you don't owe me anything.
And I said, no.
I came back, I asked her.
She goes, it was my mistakethe first time.
I'm going to pay for it.
She goes.
She goes, looks like there's apreacher who needs to learn to accept
(12:24):
a little grace.
Yeah, that's true.
I was like, thanks.
Don't feel.
I mean, it's one of thereasons why I agreed to do this.
Yeah.
Because I need this.
I tell people all the time thereason I preach the radicality of
God's grace with as muchpassion as I do is because I am doing
everything I can in the momentto convince myself that this is true.
(12:48):
As much as I'm trying toconvince you.
Yeah.
I mean it.
This is.
We don't come into this worldbelieving this stuff.
Right.
In fact, the apostle Paul saysthe law, what to do, what not to
do, and the consequences thatflow from that, that's already written
in your heart.
That's.
That's inside you.
Grace comes from outside of you.
(13:09):
It's otherworldly.
And so we'll wrestle with thisfor the rest of our lives.
There's no question.
We will wrestle with this forthe rest of our lives.
And we.
And that's okay, right?
It's okay.
It's honest to admit thatwe're going to wrestle with this
for the rest of our lives.
And for anybody who'slistening, who's wrestling with.
(13:29):
Why don't I get this more thanI do?
It's okay, right?
Like, it's fine and I've beenin that position that we had talked
about before where we becomevery ungracious toward those people
who don't get grace.
Right.
And you know, if anybody couldn't.
If you can't see it, there wasthis kind of shoulder shimmy when
(13:51):
he went, don't get grace.
Right, right.
Yeah, absolutely.
Don't get grace.
I mean, I think maybe this iswhat we put on TikTok.
Those who don't get grace,let's not be mean girls.
Right.
Okay, keep going.
So I.
I love what we're doing.
I believe it.
I believe in what we're doing.
I know how badly I need whatwe're doing.
(14:14):
And to allow people thefreedom to admit that it's okay to
not be okay, that we will bein recovery for the rest of our lives,
all of us.
And like I said in a previousepisode, there are two kinds of people
in this world.
People in recovery who knowthat they are, and people in recovery
who think that they're not.
(14:35):
But there is no one who is notin recovery.
That's true.
That's true.
Can I put one last bow on?
Please?
Please.
My hope would be everybodyknows that person who's in the darkness,
you know, when they sink intoit, you don't know what to say.
You don't know whether to goover there or not.
I mean, there's all thesethings where you second guess yourself
(14:56):
and everybody wonders, man, isthere any.
Anything.
Is there any sermon?
Is there any song, is thereany stories in your book, any movie,
Anything we could connectthese people with so that they knew
life isn't over?
And I hope what happens isthey just hit send.
Because I'm not sure theywould have listened to a sermon I
preached.
I'm not sure they would havelistened to a lesson in a church,
(15:18):
Sunday school or somethinglike that.
But if their buddy says, hey,listen, there's these three guys
and I know you're not going tobelieve this, they all used to be
preachers, kind of are now,not really like anything you've ever
met, who are frickin honestabout their shit, and they will love
you and help you learn to loveand accept yourself and other people.
(15:39):
Bring it on.
That's why we're here.
The Sampson Society, which isan organization that my friend Nate
Larkin started, posted this awhile back, and I think this describes
very well our posture, or whatwe're hoping our posture is, when
somebody falls apart, don'ttry to put them back together.
(15:59):
In fact, don't try toreassemble them at all.
That's not your job.
Instead, lay on the groundwith them and scoop as many of their
broken pieces into your handsand every now and then, whisper to
those pieces.
This is not forever.
That's it.
Jeez.
(16:19):
Leave it there.
The end.
Leave it there.
So yeah, we'll be back withmore of the same.
Thank you.
You've been listening to themisfit preachers like subscribe and
share more grace centeredresources@prodigalpodcasts.com that's
(16:40):
prodigal P R O D I G A Lpodcasts with an s dot com.
There's a pastor that I knew,and he was in a church that would
be considered conservativeBible teaching and preaching.
And then Ashley Madison camein tonight.
Millions of names, credit cardnumbers, and.
Other information from thecheater website AshleyMadison.com
has been leaked by hackers andhis name made it to the list.
By sundown, the gallows werebeing built.
(00:22):
The shame drove him at the endof it to take his own life.
Living alone, disconnectedfrom family, disconnected from church,
disconnected from everyone.
And he said, they're done with me.
I'm done with you.
The suffering you are goingthrough is God kicking you into a
new frame.
Because if you get to thepoint, like I was, like we all were,
where we were ready to takeour lives in the darkest moment.
(00:46):
The reason is because we haveso anchored our identity in whatever
it is we're losing.
Failure is also a form of suffering.
It's the self inflicted kind,but suffering nonetheless.
And it's unlike the thingsthat happen to you because in that
case, people are bringing youcasseroles and in this case, they
(01:08):
just want you to disappear.
You're listening to the misfitpreachers, Talian Chavigian, Jean
Larue and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.
Now here are the misfits.
A person needs to payattention to their surprise at another
(01:33):
person's failure.
Yes, well said.
Because that is an indicatorthat we're fooling ourselves about
who we actually are.
Yeah, that you, you make thesein your mind, you have these projections
of future moral successes Iwould never like I'm now projecting
(01:57):
out to me from here to my funeral.
I shall never.
Don't write that sentence.
I think to your point, whathappens is the great equalizer here
is honesty.
Because when people arehonest, they're the same.
And what happened, thedissonance that happens is people
(02:19):
aren't honest.
So I'm faking it.
This person's doing this.
And so now I'm forced to be honest.
Body cam, whatever it is, itall comes out.
And the other people, all of asudden they realize there are other
honest people, right, who arehonest about their struggle.
I have a friend who says, youknow, normal is just a setting on
the dryer.
The only, the only normalpeople you know are the ones you
(02:41):
don't know too well.
The conversation made me thinkabout, there's a pastor that I knew
and he was in a church thatwas, would be considered conservative,
would have been consideredBible teaching.
And preaching would have beenconsidered historically conservative.
It would have been very clearin terms of expectations, other things
(03:06):
like that.
And then Ashley Madison cameout, and what was being portrayed
as Christian piety ormoralism, whatever here was not consistent.
And his name made it to the list.
Yeah.
And by sundown, the gallowswere being built.
(03:27):
Yeah.
By Christian people.
Correct.
And there were many, to befair, who loved.
Well, reached out.
Me too.
All that, the shame that couldnot be born, drove him at the end
of it, to take his own life.
(03:49):
Living alone, disconnectedfrom family, disconnected from church,
disconnected from everyone.
And he said, they're done with me.
I'm done with me.
And that's why what Paul's allsaid to me was so helpful, that the
suffering you are goingthrough is God kicking you into a
new freedom.
Because if you get to thepoint, like, I was like, like we
(04:09):
all were, where we were readyto take our lives in the.
In the darkest moment.
Yep.
The reason is because we haveso anchored our identity in whatever
it is we're losing that wedon't know who we are without this
thing or without these peopleor this reputation or whatever.
(04:30):
And that means we're enslavedto it.
Yep.
So that's why Paul's carefullyworded sentence was so liberating
to me.
And for the first time, I sawlight peering through the clouds.
And I had this aha moment.
Oh, okay.
So God's not punishing me as aresult of this.
(04:52):
He's setting me free becauseof this.
Right.
And that changed everythingfor me.
It made me see the painfulprocess that was ahead of me as a
good thing and not a punitivething, a helpful thing, not a hurtful
thing thing.
And.
And I think the reason a lotof people don't end up sort of walking
(05:14):
that road is because theybelieve that God is who they told
us he was.
God is punitive.
God is angry.
God is punishing me.
God doesn't like me as much ashe did yesterday.
He's getting even.
Right?
He's getting even.
He wants his pound of flesh.
We, I firmly believe wenaturally, we believe in karma, not
(05:38):
grace.
Absolutely.
You break it, you buy it.
There's no question thatthat's how this thing works.
There is no question.
There is no question.
No question.
The.
The Freddie Mercury quote.
I found it.
It's actually let me do itaccurately this time because I think
it's even better in that scenefrom Bohemian Rhapsody.
He looks at the recordexecutive and says, when the record
executive says, why should wesign you?
(05:59):
This is what he says, we arefour misfits who don't belong together
and we're playing for other misfits.
They're the outcasts at theback of the room.
We're pretty sure they don'tbelong either.
We belong to them.
And I'm like, that's this.
Yeah, that's this.
That's exactly what this is.
When you.
When the experience that youwent through and you went through
(06:21):
of coming to the realizationthat at least this is how I framed
it in my own mind and havecategorized it, that failure is also
a form of suffering.
Absolutely.
It's the self inflicted kind,but suffering nonetheless.
And it's unlike the thingsthat happen to you because in that
(06:43):
case, people are bringing youcasseroles and in this case they
just want you to disappear.
And it was when I got my mindaround, oh, I had the same epiphany
experience that and like myattitude flipped.
(07:03):
It's.
I was in that dark moment downthat hallway contemplating, I'm done,
I'm worthless, I'm out.
Nobody loves me.
What I'm just taking.
I'm just burning oxygen onthis planet.
But it was in that I had toget to that point to just give up
and, and drop the idols andwhat my identity was then.
(07:25):
And it stripped me of all that.
And I remember the line ineast of Eden, which is like the line
of that book and a lot ofliterature where a character has
failed.
If you know the story andthere's a line that comes, oh, good,
now that you don't know that,you know, you don't have to be perfect.
Go be good.
(07:46):
Yeah, like there's a giganticparadigm shift.
I showed you the pic.
I mean, I can remember in the,in the days leading up to my court
case, I showed you the picture.
I sketched.
I grew up drawing artistic.
And I remember sitting in themiddle of a field in a state park
(08:07):
outside of Nashville with asketchbook and I had sat down to
ostensibly like, okay, let'stotally 180 degrees.
I grew up as an artist.
I'm going to draw the trees ora little boat on the water, whatever.
And I ended up sketching thispicture of a naked man with his hands
down and his face on theground and darkness all around him
(08:30):
and in the middle of asunshiny feel.
And that's what I'm thismacabre picture.
And I was like, that's how I feel.
There are dogs walking by,people throwing Frisbees, and Schroeder
is.
Has got the.
The one rain Cloud above his head.
Lightning.
God is punishing me.
I shall die here.
And there are people out theresketching that picture right now.
(08:52):
Yeah.
They're looking at picturesthrough their phone, and they go,
I remember when I used to be happy.
I remember when life used tobe good.
And.
And they finished the sentenceuntil I destroyed it.
And the karma kicks in, and Ibelieve I deserve it.
Yeah.
And I should be alone, and Ishould be discarded, and I should
(09:14):
be unwanted, and I should be abandoned.
And even though we love Grace,believe in it, want other people
to love it and believe in it.
I still do that all the time.
Every single time one of myadult kids goes through something
difficult and painful in theirpersonal lives, whether it's my oldest
(09:37):
son, Gabe, my middle son,Nate, or my daughter Jenna.
Every time my internal,immediate reaction is, I did this
to them.
They're suffering because ofwhat I have done.
And there's a part of thatthat's true.
Their lives were set on adifferent course.
But the self condemnation,that comes instinctively, naturally,
(09:57):
when they're struggling or.
I have three grandsons, andwe're trying to get them.
We were trying to get theminto a different school, which was
expensive.
And I'm sitting theredepressed as all get out on a Sunday
afternoon.
And Stacy was like, what's the matter?
And I'm like, I blew it.
I blew it.
She said, what do you mean?
(10:17):
And I said, I blew it.
Like, I had all of theresources I needed to be able to
get my grand boys into this school.
I had the connections.
I had the financial resources.
All I would have had to do 10years ago is make a phone call, and
these boys would have been atthe top of the list and in class.
And I said, I blew that.
(10:39):
My grandkids are now sufferingbecause of what I did.
So it is.
The karmic mindset is deeplyingrained in all of us.
My frame is.
That's really, really powerful.
My frame is bent this way.
Yeah.
And if I take the hands of.
Grace off the wheel, it'll gonaturally into the ditch.
(11:01):
And I hear that rumble stripon the side.
Mm.
And I.
I kind of know that I'm there,and I just have to shake myself out
of it and put Grace back inthe seat and.
And get myself back over there.
But it's a constant battle,especially with all the circumstances
that.
That we face now.
We're not saying there aren't earthly.
(11:22):
Oh, my gosh.
The horizontal consequencesare real, and we're living proof
of that.
You don't want them A.
It's a simple math, right?
You do this, the point will happen.
Like, I think it's so helpful.
Cuz we're not fixed.
No.
And that's the.
A week and a half ago, I got a haircut.
It was the second one by thesame lady who had cut it a week earlier.
(11:43):
And it was just.
We.
I mean, I'm.
It's not great, but it was.
It's much better than it was.
Can I tell people how much Iwish I had your hair?
Yes.
I mean, look at it.
Please do.
Okay, go ahead.
Can we start the fan with afan blow?
But you want my hair?
I got hat head.
You want my hair?
Oh gosh, I love it.
No, I want.
And so.
So this woman, I went and Isaid, can you do this?
And so she fixed it.
(12:04):
And this sweet lady who'solive branch, Mississippi, at a strip
mall haircut place.
I mean, nothing fancy about it.
And I got up and I said, okay,I'll venmo you.
She goes, no, you don't owe me anything.
And I said, no.
I came back, I asked her.
She goes, it was my mistakethe first time.
I'm going to pay for it.
She goes.
She goes, looks like there's apreacher who needs to learn to accept
(12:24):
a little grace.
Yeah, that's true.
I was like, thanks.
Don't feel.
I mean, it's one of thereasons why I agreed to do this.
Yeah.
Because I need this.
I tell people all the time thereason I preach the radicality of
God's grace with as muchpassion as I do is because I am doing
everything I can in the momentto convince myself that this is true.
(12:48):
As much as I'm trying toconvince you.
Yeah.
I mean it.
This is.
We don't come into this worldbelieving this stuff.
Right.
In fact, the apostle Paul saysthe law, what to do, what not to
do, and the consequences thatflow from that, that's already written
in your heart.
That's.
That's inside you.
Grace comes from outside of you.
(13:09):
It's otherworldly.
And so we'll wrestle with thisfor the rest of our lives.
There's no question.
We will wrestle with this forthe rest of our lives.
And we.
And that's okay, right?
It's okay.
It's honest to admit thatwe're going to wrestle with this
for the rest of our lives.
And for anybody who'slistening, who's wrestling with.
(13:29):
Why don't I get this more thanI do?
It's okay, right?
Like, it's fine and I've beenin that position that we had talked
about before where we becomevery ungracious toward those people
who don't get grace.
Right.
And you know, if anybody couldn't.
If you can't see it, there wasthis kind of shoulder shimmy when
(13:51):
he went, don't get grace.
Right, right.
Yeah, absolutely.
Don't get grace.
I mean, I think maybe this iswhat we put on TikTok.
Those who don't get grace,let's not be mean girls.
Right.
Okay, keep going.
So I.
I love what we're doing.
I believe it.
I believe in what we're doing.
I know how badly I need whatwe're doing.
(14:14):
And to allow people thefreedom to admit that it's okay to
not be okay, that we will bein recovery for the rest of our lives,
all of us.
And like I said in a previousepisode, there are two kinds of people
in this world.
People in recovery who knowthat they are, and people in recovery
who think that they're not.
(14:35):
But there is no one who is notin recovery.
That's true.
That's true.
Can I put one last bow on?
Please?
Please.
My hope would be everybodyknows that person who's in the darkness,
you know, when they sink intoit, you don't know what to say.
You don't know whether to goover there or not.
I mean, there's all thesethings where you second guess yourself
(14:56):
and everybody wonders, man, isthere any.
Anything.
Is there any sermon?
Is there any song, is thereany stories in your book, any movie,
Anything we could connectthese people with so that they knew
life isn't over?
And I hope what happens isthey just hit send.
Because I'm not sure theywould have listened to a sermon I
preached.
I'm not sure they would havelistened to a lesson in a church,
(15:18):
Sunday school or somethinglike that.
But if their buddy says, hey,listen, there's these three guys
and I know you're not going tobelieve this, they all used to be
preachers, kind of are now,not really like anything you've ever
met, who are frickin honestabout their shit, and they will love
you and help you learn to loveand accept yourself and other people.
(15:39):
Bring it on.
That's why we're here.
The Sampson Society, which isan organization that my friend Nate
Larkin started, posted this awhile back, and I think this describes
very well our posture, or whatwe're hoping our posture is, when
somebody falls apart, don'ttry to put them back together.
(15:59):
In fact, don't try toreassemble them at all.
That's not your job.
Instead, lay on the groundwith them and scoop as many of their
broken pieces into your handsand every now and then, whisper to
those pieces.
This is not forever.
That's it.
Jeez.
(16:19):
Leave it there.
The end.
Leave it there.
So yeah, we'll be back withmore of the same.
Thank you.
You've been listening to themisfit preachers like subscribe and
share more grace centeredresources@prodigalpodcasts.com that's
(16:40):
prodigal P R O D I G A Lpodcasts with an s dot com.
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