February 20, 2025 • 20 mins
Pastors, eh? They’ve got it tough, right? I mean, who knew being a spiritual guide could come with such a heavy backpack of expectations? In this episode, our trio of former pastors—Jean, Byron, and Tullian—dive into the swirling storm of loneliness that often shadows the lives of local church leaders. You know, it’s like they’re expected to be spiritual superheroes, but spoiler alert: they’re just as human as the rest of us! They share stories about how congregation members often want their preachers to be flawless, but the reality is, pastors are capable of the same struggles as everyone else. It’s like they’re juggling flaming swords while riding a unicycle on a tightrope—pretty impressive, but also a recipe for disaster!
The guys get real about the pressure to maintain a perfect image and how that pressure can lead to a sense of isolation. Tullian recalls some sage but misguided advice he received in seminary: don’t confess your sins, because, you know, your people need a perfect role model. Fast forward to today, and he’s like, “What was I thinking?” They discuss how this mindset can actually harm pastors and their congregations, creating a divide that prevents genuine connection. If only everyone could see that the most broken, ragamuffin types are the very ones Jesus came to rescue! So grab your favorite snack, kick back, and join us for a light-hearted yet poignant chat about grace, vulnerability, and the beautiful messiness of being human in ministry.
Takeaways:
- Being a pastor doesn't mean being perfect; we're all messy and need grace.
- Congregants often want their pastors to be flawless, but that's unrealistic and unfair.
- Pastors struggle with the same issues as their congregants, and that connection matters.
- It's crucial to remember that God's grace is for the broken, not just the clean.
- We need to be real about our struggles, rather than putting on a show of holiness.
- The church should embrace the flawed and broken, just like Jesus did with everyone.
Links referenced in this episode:
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
How do you know you're notdisqualified? Shouted off the set.
What would you say to thefolks that are listening?
When I was in my first year ofseminary, a guest preacher of a prominent
church in the area, this isthe guy we all wanted to be when
we grew up. He came to guestlecture, he said to all of us, gentlemen,
(00:21):
don't ever stand behind thepulpit and confess your sins because
your people need someone tolook up to. I was like, hell, yeah,
he's right. I look back nowand think that is the shittiest advice,
the most destructive counselthat anyone could give any pastors
(00:44):
in trouble.
I know that there is a pastorpossibly listening to this right
now who is toying with makingvery bad decisions. That man is out
there. I'm talkingspecifically to you. You're caught
up in this thing. You don'tknow how to get out of it. You don't
know how to unwind it, andyou're still moving forward. And
to you, I would say verycompassionately, you have no ide
idea what you are about to say.
(01:07):
You're listening to the misfitpreachers, Tali and Chavidjan, Jean
Larue and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.Now here are the misfits.
Well, I love to him, will you.I mean, we. In. In that whole sense,
(01:28):
that idea of beingdisqualified for ministry. I think
our producer director Gussaid, you know, how do you know you're
not disqualified? Shouted offthe set. What. What would you say
to the folks that are listening?
I mean, I hear that a lot. Notfrom the people around me or the
people that, you know, Iminister to or lead, but from the
(01:49):
people out there who only knowthe headlines.
Right?
Even though it was nearly 10years ago, they remember it like
it was five minutes ago. Andso from time to time, I will get
the charge that I disqualifiedmyself years ago. And the very fact
that I am preaching, teaching,writing, leading, living, they don't
(02:16):
go that far. But some of themis, is I am disobeying God. I am
going against what the Bibleteaches. The Bible clearly teaches
that you are disqualified. Andhere you are standing in front of
people preaching again and youshouldn't be. And from time to time,
(02:37):
I will respond. I usuallyignore that stuff, let them make
their comments, and, you know,it. Usually before I can even respond,
there are usually people whocome to my defense before I have
to, which is not thatimportant to me, coming to my own
defense. But When I do, when Ican get the sense that this is not
just some asshole, but someonewho seems genuinely confused because
(03:01):
they've heard that if youscrew up the way I did, you don't
get a second shot at this.You've disqualified yourself for
life. So when I get a sensethat the person I'm responding to
is confused, not just being anass. Sincere. Yes, sincere. My response
is always the same. Thepassages that they point to always
(03:25):
are the passages in Timothyand Titus, which list the qualifications
for overseers, elders, churchleaders, that kind of thing. And
I always respond by saying itis impossible to defend exegetically,
theologically, or evenhistorically, much less practically,
(03:49):
it is impossible to defend theidea that a failure at any point
in your life as a churchleader in violation of these qualifications
equals a lifetime ban.Nowhere. There is not one verse in
(04:13):
the Bible that states or evenimplies that a screw up of that magnitude
or in that way as a Christianleader, bans you from leadership
for life. Now, I know peoplewho have screwed up the way I have,
(04:33):
who come back very quickly,and my immediate reaction is this
is going to happen again insome way. Maybe not the same way,
but in some way, because it's.You don't. I know what it. I know
the rehab that goes into, youknow, fixing a broken leg, a broken
back. And it takes time and ittakes a lot of hard work, a lot of
(04:56):
blood, a lot of sweat, a lotof tears, a lot of initial resistance.
It is, as we've said numeroustimes in this podcast, we are recovering.
We have not recovered. Peopleare in a persistent state of recovery.
And so when someone comes backtoo quick and announces that they
went through this, you know,30 day program or this 40 day program
(05:18):
where they took six months offand they've done the work. And I
always think, man, that leg'sgonna break again in the first, at
the first, you know, hit. So Iknow that that's true. There is wisdom
in taking your time doing thework, extended periods of time. But
there is nothing, nothing inthe Bible either in those passages,
(05:42):
Timothy and Titus or any otherpassage in the Bible. And I challenge
anybody out there to show me averse or a passage that essentially
says you are banned from forlife if you violate these qualifications
at any point as a Christianleader. Now, some people will say,
(06:05):
and I heard one pastor makethis qualification. You can sin the
way that we did before. You'rea pastor, and that doesn't disqualify
you. But if you sin the waythat we did as a pastor, you are
banned for life. And I wouldjust ask for evidence of that. And
(06:26):
I'm not talking about youropinion or what you heard some preacher
say. I'm talking about goingback to what God says about it and
show me one place that sayslifetime ban for a failure in these
ways.
My. It's interesting yousaying that, because I wasn't a pastor
when all this happens, so I'min the clear.
(06:49):
Yeah, some of them would saythat. But you know what some of them
would say? Your attempt atjoining a podcast with me with John.
It's not an attempt. We're nottrying. We're doing.
Oh, yeah, they. They don'thave as much hope and confidence
as we do. In fact, they'rehoping we fail. But I mean, there
are those who would say,byron, the amount of people you hurt
(07:13):
because of what you did as arepresentative of Christ, the best
thing you can do to servepeople is to not show your face ever
again. Your very existence isa trigger to people. Go away. I mean,
I've heard that stuff. Sothey're not in because. Because the
foundation under which theydraw their conclusions is shaky.
(07:37):
It's always moving. So itdoesn't matter what we throw at these
people. They will come backwith something, some form of reasoning
why the three of us should goaway forever.
Hence our tagline, which welove. I love. Can't cancel the canceled.
That's fair.
(07:58):
And not afraid to die. I'mdead already.
That's correct. And I dobelieve because I know it to be true.
Which brings me full circle.The things I have learned through
this process, through myfailure, through my sin, through
my delusion, through thepeople I hurt. Because causing pain
(08:20):
causes pain. I have a lot toshare because I've done the work,
too, and have looked at it,and I did not rush to go back at
this point right now, don'teven want to go back because of things
that ministry did to me beforeany of this happened, before any
(08:42):
of it happened. And I'm nothere because I was pining for it.
I wasn't even looking for it.Somebody asked me, and I did not
hesitate at all. Because mythinking was, if I can go through
this, I'm not going to wasteit. And it gives me the opportunity
to say things that I wouldhave never said as a pastor because
(09:05):
I would have been afraid ofwhat I described. I'm going to go
back and deliver truth topeople in general that sounds like
their lives, rather thantheory, that it's delivered with
compassion and experience. Iam you because Pastors will say,
(09:25):
well, I'm human too. But asJohn said, whenever a pastor kind
of confesses their sin todemonstrate their humanity to the
hoi polloi, to connect it,it's. There's all just. You can't
really make it out. It ends upsounding like a virtue. And they
virtuize the confession oftheir sin, but they're never really
(09:49):
honest. And there's no waythat I'm going to live with that
veneer anymore. And, you know,Anthony Bourdain wrote the Chef,
had the show, wrote the bookKitchen Confidential. My experience
in the church, my experiencein large denominations and institutions,
(10:11):
there. There is an underbellyout there that people don't even
know exists. Part of it is thepressure that it puts on pastors.
And I'm here to expose andhelp in that regard.
Yeah, that. I mean, I can giveyou a great illustration of what
that pressure looks like. Ican remember a. This is a conversation
had with me on a Sunday,shaking hands on the way out of church.
(10:33):
And this woman comes up to meand she says, I think I finally figured
out what's wrong with you.
And I said, well, I'm all ears.
I'm all ears. Lay it on me.And she said, we want you to be better.
And I said, what do you mean,better? And she said, like more fixed.
(10:57):
And I said, what do you mean?And she said, you know, you should
be like a personal trainer,like a spiritual personal trainer.
Like, you can do X, Y and Zand you're gonna help us learn to
do this. And I said, you know,I said, I hear what you're saying.
I just happen to think it isbetter to offer to you Jesus Sunday
(11:19):
after Sunday, rather than arevised version of me, because a
revised version of me doesn'tget you anything. But Jesus as a
replacement for me and you isthe gospel.
Yeah, it's.
That perils because it's thepressure of I've. I've got to have
(11:40):
this together. And the realityis if. If the honesty ever, ever
actually kicks in, the bottomfalls out of everything.
I was sitting in a seminaryclass when I was in my first year
of seminary and a guestpreacher of a prominent church in
(12:03):
the area. This is the guy weall wanted to be when we grew up.
He had the big church. He had,I mean, the whole deal. And he came
to guest lecture in one of ourclasses, and at one point he said
to all of us, there were maybe30, 40 people in the class. And he
(12:26):
said, gentlemen, don't everstand behind the pulpit. And confess
your sins because your peopleneed someone to look up to. And at
the time, I'm this youngidealist, you know, had been a Christian
for maybe four or five years.And I was like, hell, yeah, he's
(12:50):
right. Yes, I need to becomeclean. All my words, It's Robert
Murray McShane saying mypeople's greatest need is my personal
holiness. It's that idea.
Yep.
I look back now and think thatis the shittiest advice, the most
(13:12):
destructive counsel thatanyone could give any pastors in
training. It was, it's mindblowing to me that there was a time
in my life where I heard thatand thought that was wise, that was
good. That's not evenbiblical. Forget it being wise and
(13:32):
good. It's not even biblical.What's interesting, and I think the
Christian community shouldtake notes from the recovery community
in this regard, you wouldnever ever, ever find a non alcoholic
leading an AA meeting, ever.What qualifies the person to lead
the meeting is their strugglewith alcohol. The church is the only
(13:56):
institution that requires itsleaders to be clean in order to be
qualified for the struggle tobe behind them rather than in them.
And I think that's the massivedisconnect between the pulpit in
the pew and what comes fromthe pulpit is some ideal of what
life ought to look like. Whenin reality, as you said a minute
(14:19):
ago, we're not really seeingtheir life. We're seeing a version,
the version they want us tosee. We all did it. We gave them
a version that we wanted themto see that they wanted to see as
well, that they wanted to seeit all, that they wanted to see also.
But for a person with moralauthority to stand behind a pulpit
Sunday after Sunday believingthat they are qualified to stand
(14:45):
there because they are clean,because they are pursuing holiness,
because they are practicinggodliness and all of those things
says something to the entirecommunity about who God is. God is
the kind of God who loves anduses clean people who are diligent
(15:08):
in their pursuit of holiness.God only uses pure vessels, that
kind of bullshit, when inreality what we find in the Bible
is that God only uses bad andweak people who fail because there
aren't any other kinds ofpeople. Now you either know that
about yourself or you don't.And I would argue that the person
(15:29):
who has enough self awarenessto know that about themselves and
not believe the delusion thatthey are as holy and as good and
as faithful and as devoted andas righteous as they want to believe
they are, those are the peoplewho I think are Disqualified.
When I. When I told my story,I also shared an experience where
(15:51):
somebody had written a blog.Are we past not saying the name?
Can I say the name of the recent.
Yeah, you could do that.
Steve Lawson made it into the news.
Because who's a pastor that isfamiliar in some circles that we
love, and.
We'Ve all three reached out toand shared compassion and love with
him. So people jumped on that.Right. And they wrote a blog. And
(16:16):
one of the. One of the blogsor posts that was written, I know
this person, he could have putmy name in there. And the basic gist
of it was, you don't want toend up where they ended up. So do
this. Now. There's part of methat says, you absolutely want to
end up where I ended up onthis side of it, because I haven't
seen the gospel as clearly.Haven't loved people as much, haven't
(16:40):
been as free.
True, true, true.
Pursuit of Christ has neverbeen more fluid on the horizontal
level. I totally get that. Ifyou don't want to end up there, and
maybe you will, you need tolisten to me. And so let me. I know
(17:01):
that there is a pastorpossibly listening to this right
now who is toying with makinga very bad decision. It's like Benny
Hinn saying, I feel somebodyin the audience has back pain. Right.
You know that those. That manis out there. I'm talking specifically
to you. You're caught up inthis thing. You don't know how to
(17:22):
get out of it. You don't knowhow to unwind it, and you're still
moving forward in it. To you,I would say very compassionately,
you have no idea what you areabout to suffer. And the pain that
is completely unpredictableand unexpected, one of which is there
is nothing so searing as theinstantaneous evaporation of all
(17:50):
your integrity and all thesocial capital you've built up with
your children. If you could bein my shoes at the moment, my children
stepped into the room as well,for the conversation as well. It
is so searingly difficult. Thehardest thing that I went through,
(18:14):
and there is no way for mepersonally to transfer that experience
to you, except to say itnearly killed me. And of everything
that I lost and everythingthat happened to me and the people
that came after me, none ofthat stuff mattered. But it's a betrayal
of trust that is like yoursoul walking over glass. It's just
(18:38):
a searing.
Yeah, it's one of thehorizontal consequences.
And to that person, I wouldsay you have nobody that you can
go to. So listen to us andlisten to me. And that's reality.
I lived through it. I saw itfrom the other side inside. And the
saying goes, you can't readthe label from inside the bottle.
I'm outside the bottle tellingyou what's on the label. You do not,
(19:01):
under any circumstances wantto make that ridiculous decision.
And the person who's in thethroes of it will not hear what you
just said.
No, it's.
I mean, I didn't. No, I didn'teither. That's how I know. Because
I. I knew all the stories. I'dwatched them all. I knew. I was convinced
if I'm going to go down, I maygo down for this or for that. But
(19:26):
I will never, ever go down asa result of having an affair or being
faithful to my wife. Never.Because I saw what happened to those
people. You've been listeningto the misfit preachers like subscribe
and share more grace centeredresources@prodigalpodcasts.com that's
(19:48):
Prodigal P R O D I G A lpodcasts with an s dot com.
How do you know you're notdisqualified? Shouted off the set.
What would you say to thefolks that are listening?
When I was in my first year ofseminary, a guest preacher of a prominent
church in the area, this isthe guy we all wanted to be when
we grew up. He came to guestlecture, he said to all of us, gentlemen,
(00:21):
don't ever stand behind thepulpit and confess your sins because
your people need someone tolook up to. I was like, hell, yeah,
he's right. I look back nowand think that is the shittiest advice,
the most destructive counselthat anyone could give any pastors
(00:44):
in trouble.
I know that there is a pastorpossibly listening to this right
now who is toying with makingvery bad decisions. That man is out
there. I'm talkingspecifically to you. You're caught
up in this thing. You don'tknow how to get out of it. You don't
know how to unwind it, andyou're still moving forward. And
to you, I would say verycompassionately, you have no ide
idea what you are about to say.
(01:07):
You're listening to the misfitpreachers, Tali and Chavidjan, Jean
Larue and Byron Yan fromProdigalPodcast.com we're plagiarizing
Jesus one podcast at a time.Now here are the misfits.
Well, I love to him, will you.I mean, we. In. In that whole sense,
(01:28):
that idea of beingdisqualified for ministry. I think
our producer director Gussaid, you know, how do you know you're
not disqualified? Shouted offthe set. What. What would you say
to the folks that are listening?
I mean, I hear that a lot. Notfrom the people around me or the
people that, you know, Iminister to or lead, but from the
(01:49):
people out there who only knowthe headlines.
Right?
Even though it was nearly 10years ago, they remember it like
it was five minutes ago. Andso from time to time, I will get
the charge that I disqualifiedmyself years ago. And the very fact
that I am preaching, teaching,writing, leading, living, they don't
(02:16):
go that far. But some of themis, is I am disobeying God. I am
going against what the Bibleteaches. The Bible clearly teaches
that you are disqualified. Andhere you are standing in front of
people preaching again and youshouldn't be. And from time to time,
(02:37):
I will respond. I usuallyignore that stuff, let them make
their comments, and, you know,it. Usually before I can even respond,
there are usually people whocome to my defense before I have
to, which is not thatimportant to me, coming to my own
defense. But When I do, when Ican get the sense that this is not
just some asshole, but someonewho seems genuinely confused because
(03:01):
they've heard that if youscrew up the way I did, you don't
get a second shot at this.You've disqualified yourself for
life. So when I get a sensethat the person I'm responding to
is confused, not just being anass. Sincere. Yes, sincere. My response
is always the same. Thepassages that they point to always
(03:25):
are the passages in Timothyand Titus, which list the qualifications
for overseers, elders, churchleaders, that kind of thing. And
I always respond by saying itis impossible to defend exegetically,
theologically, or evenhistorically, much less practically,
(03:49):
it is impossible to defend theidea that a failure at any point
in your life as a churchleader in violation of these qualifications
equals a lifetime ban.Nowhere. There is not one verse in
(04:13):
the Bible that states or evenimplies that a screw up of that magnitude
or in that way as a Christianleader, bans you from leadership
for life. Now, I know peoplewho have screwed up the way I have,
(04:33):
who come back very quickly,and my immediate reaction is this
is going to happen again insome way. Maybe not the same way,
but in some way, because it's.You don't. I know what it. I know
the rehab that goes into, youknow, fixing a broken leg, a broken
back. And it takes time and ittakes a lot of hard work, a lot of
(04:56):
blood, a lot of sweat, a lotof tears, a lot of initial resistance.
It is, as we've said numeroustimes in this podcast, we are recovering.
We have not recovered. Peopleare in a persistent state of recovery.
And so when someone comes backtoo quick and announces that they
went through this, you know,30 day program or this 40 day program
(05:18):
where they took six months offand they've done the work. And I
always think, man, that leg'sgonna break again in the first, at
the first, you know, hit. So Iknow that that's true. There is wisdom
in taking your time doing thework, extended periods of time. But
there is nothing, nothing inthe Bible either in those passages,
(05:42):
Timothy and Titus or any otherpassage in the Bible. And I challenge
anybody out there to show me averse or a passage that essentially
says you are banned from forlife if you violate these qualifications
at any point as a Christianleader. Now, some people will say,
(06:05):
and I heard one pastor makethis qualification. You can sin the
way that we did before. You'rea pastor, and that doesn't disqualify
you. But if you sin the waythat we did as a pastor, you are
banned for life. And I wouldjust ask for evidence of that. And
(06:26):
I'm not talking about youropinion or what you heard some preacher
say. I'm talking about goingback to what God says about it and
show me one place that sayslifetime ban for a failure in these
ways.
My. It's interesting yousaying that, because I wasn't a pastor
when all this happens, so I'min the clear.
(06:49):
Yeah, some of them would saythat. But you know what some of them
would say? Your attempt atjoining a podcast with me with John.
It's not an attempt. We're nottrying. We're doing.
Oh, yeah, they. They don'thave as much hope and confidence
as we do. In fact, they'rehoping we fail. But I mean, there
are those who would say,byron, the amount of people you hurt
(07:13):
because of what you did as arepresentative of Christ, the best
thing you can do to servepeople is to not show your face ever
again. Your very existence isa trigger to people. Go away. I mean,
I've heard that stuff. Sothey're not in because. Because the
foundation under which theydraw their conclusions is shaky.
(07:37):
It's always moving. So itdoesn't matter what we throw at these
people. They will come backwith something, some form of reasoning
why the three of us should goaway forever.
Hence our tagline, which welove. I love. Can't cancel the canceled.
That's fair.
(07:58):
And not afraid to die. I'mdead already.
That's correct. And I dobelieve because I know it to be true.
Which brings me full circle.The things I have learned through
this process, through myfailure, through my sin, through
my delusion, through thepeople I hurt. Because causing pain
(08:20):
causes pain. I have a lot toshare because I've done the work,
too, and have looked at it,and I did not rush to go back at
this point right now, don'teven want to go back because of things
that ministry did to me beforeany of this happened, before any
(08:42):
of it happened. And I'm nothere because I was pining for it.
I wasn't even looking for it.Somebody asked me, and I did not
hesitate at all. Because mythinking was, if I can go through
this, I'm not going to wasteit. And it gives me the opportunity
to say things that I wouldhave never said as a pastor because
(09:05):
I would have been afraid ofwhat I described. I'm going to go
back and deliver truth topeople in general that sounds like
their lives, rather thantheory, that it's delivered with
compassion and experience. Iam you because Pastors will say,
(09:25):
well, I'm human too. But asJohn said, whenever a pastor kind
of confesses their sin todemonstrate their humanity to the
hoi polloi, to connect it,it's. There's all just. You can't
really make it out. It ends upsounding like a virtue. And they
virtuize the confession oftheir sin, but they're never really
(09:49):
honest. And there's no waythat I'm going to live with that
veneer anymore. And, you know,Anthony Bourdain wrote the Chef,
had the show, wrote the bookKitchen Confidential. My experience
in the church, my experiencein large denominations and institutions,
(10:11):
there. There is an underbellyout there that people don't even
know exists. Part of it is thepressure that it puts on pastors.
And I'm here to expose andhelp in that regard.
Yeah, that. I mean, I can giveyou a great illustration of what
that pressure looks like. Ican remember a. This is a conversation
had with me on a Sunday,shaking hands on the way out of church.
(10:33):
And this woman comes up to meand she says, I think I finally figured
out what's wrong with you.
And I said, well, I'm all ears.
I'm all ears. Lay it on me.And she said, we want you to be better.
And I said, what do you mean,better? And she said, like more fixed.
(10:57):
And I said, what do you mean?And she said, you know, you should
be like a personal trainer,like a spiritual personal trainer.
Like, you can do X, Y and Zand you're gonna help us learn to
do this. And I said, you know,I said, I hear what you're saying.
I just happen to think it isbetter to offer to you Jesus Sunday
(11:19):
after Sunday, rather than arevised version of me, because a
revised version of me doesn'tget you anything. But Jesus as a
replacement for me and you isthe gospel.
Yeah, it's.
That perils because it's thepressure of I've. I've got to have
(11:40):
this together. And the realityis if. If the honesty ever, ever
actually kicks in, the bottomfalls out of everything.
I was sitting in a seminaryclass when I was in my first year
of seminary and a guestpreacher of a prominent church in
(12:03):
the area. This is the guy weall wanted to be when we grew up.
He had the big church. He had,I mean, the whole deal. And he came
to guest lecture in one of ourclasses, and at one point he said
to all of us, there were maybe30, 40 people in the class. And he
(12:26):
said, gentlemen, don't everstand behind the pulpit. And confess
your sins because your peopleneed someone to look up to. And at
the time, I'm this youngidealist, you know, had been a Christian
for maybe four or five years.And I was like, hell, yeah, he's
(12:50):
right. Yes, I need to becomeclean. All my words, It's Robert
Murray McShane saying mypeople's greatest need is my personal
holiness. It's that idea.
Yep.
I look back now and think thatis the shittiest advice, the most
(13:12):
destructive counsel thatanyone could give any pastors in
training. It was, it's mindblowing to me that there was a time
in my life where I heard thatand thought that was wise, that was
good. That's not evenbiblical. Forget it being wise and
(13:32):
good. It's not even biblical.What's interesting, and I think the
Christian community shouldtake notes from the recovery community
in this regard, you wouldnever ever, ever find a non alcoholic
leading an AA meeting, ever.What qualifies the person to lead
the meeting is their strugglewith alcohol. The church is the only
(13:56):
institution that requires itsleaders to be clean in order to be
qualified for the struggle tobe behind them rather than in them.
And I think that's the massivedisconnect between the pulpit in
the pew and what comes fromthe pulpit is some ideal of what
life ought to look like. Whenin reality, as you said a minute
(14:19):
ago, we're not really seeingtheir life. We're seeing a version,
the version they want us tosee. We all did it. We gave them
a version that we wanted themto see that they wanted to see as
well, that they wanted to seeit all, that they wanted to see also.
But for a person with moralauthority to stand behind a pulpit
Sunday after Sunday believingthat they are qualified to stand
(14:45):
there because they are clean,because they are pursuing holiness,
because they are practicinggodliness and all of those things
says something to the entirecommunity about who God is. God is
the kind of God who loves anduses clean people who are diligent
(15:08):
in their pursuit of holiness.God only uses pure vessels, that
kind of bullshit, when inreality what we find in the Bible
is that God only uses bad andweak people who fail because there
aren't any other kinds ofpeople. Now you either know that
about yourself or you don't.And I would argue that the person
(15:29):
who has enough self awarenessto know that about themselves and
not believe the delusion thatthey are as holy and as good and
as faithful and as devoted andas righteous as they want to believe
they are, those are the peoplewho I think are Disqualified.
When I. When I told my story,I also shared an experience where
(15:51):
somebody had written a blog.Are we past not saying the name?
Can I say the name of the recent.
Yeah, you could do that.
Steve Lawson made it into the news.
Because who's a pastor that isfamiliar in some circles that we
love, and.
We'Ve all three reached out toand shared compassion and love with
him. So people jumped on that.Right. And they wrote a blog. And
(16:16):
one of the. One of the blogsor posts that was written, I know
this person, he could have putmy name in there. And the basic gist
of it was, you don't want toend up where they ended up. So do
this. Now. There's part of methat says, you absolutely want to
end up where I ended up onthis side of it, because I haven't
seen the gospel as clearly.Haven't loved people as much, haven't
(16:40):
been as free.
True, true, true.
Pursuit of Christ has neverbeen more fluid on the horizontal
level. I totally get that. Ifyou don't want to end up there, and
maybe you will, you need tolisten to me. And so let me. I know
(17:01):
that there is a pastorpossibly listening to this right
now who is toying with makinga very bad decision. It's like Benny
Hinn saying, I feel somebodyin the audience has back pain. Right.
You know that those. That manis out there. I'm talking specifically
to you. You're caught up inthis thing. You don't know how to
(17:22):
get out of it. You don't knowhow to unwind it, and you're still
moving forward in it. To you,I would say very compassionately,
you have no idea what you areabout to suffer. And the pain that
is completely unpredictableand unexpected, one of which is there
is nothing so searing as theinstantaneous evaporation of all
(17:50):
your integrity and all thesocial capital you've built up with
your children. If you could bein my shoes at the moment, my children
stepped into the room as well,for the conversation as well. It
is so searingly difficult. Thehardest thing that I went through,
(18:14):
and there is no way for mepersonally to transfer that experience
to you, except to say itnearly killed me. And of everything
that I lost and everythingthat happened to me and the people
that came after me, none ofthat stuff mattered. But it's a betrayal
of trust that is like yoursoul walking over glass. It's just
(18:38):
a searing.
Yeah, it's one of thehorizontal consequences.
And to that person, I wouldsay you have nobody that you can
go to. So listen to us andlisten to me. And that's reality.
I lived through it. I saw itfrom the other side inside. And the
saying goes, you can't readthe label from inside the bottle.
I'm outside the bottle tellingyou what's on the label. You do not,
(19:01):
under any circumstances wantto make that ridiculous decision.
And the person who's in thethroes of it will not hear what you
just said.
No, it's.
I mean, I didn't. No, I didn'teither. That's how I know. Because
I. I knew all the stories. I'dwatched them all. I knew. I was convinced
if I'm going to go down, I maygo down for this or for that. But
(19:26):
I will never, ever go down asa result of having an affair or being
faithful to my wife. Never.Because I saw what happened to those
people. You've been listeningto the misfit preachers like subscribe
and share more grace centeredresources@prodigalpodcasts.com that's
(19:48):
Prodigal P R O D I G A lpodcasts with an s dot com.
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