A Paranormal Life

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to everything out there with your host Steve Stockton.
Hello friends, Hello, hello once again, and welcome to everything
out there on the Clyde Lewis Grounds. He wrote Radio Network,

(00:22):
I'm your host, Steve Stalktor. Welcome in tonight, joining me
on the phone. Friend of mine for many years. You
might know her from her work on Caravan of Lore
or some of the scripts she wrote and narrated for
me over on my thirteen Past Midnight YouTube channel. Or
you might know her from her work with Seth Breedlove's

(00:44):
Small Town Monsters. And she's also a classics professor at
Kent State University. Welcome Heather Moser, Heather, come on in.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Hi, Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah. Nice to have you here on the phone with
us tonight. So what's going on in your world? I
haven't seen you in I've probably been over a year.
You and Seth showed up in New Mexico in the
Four Corners area and filmed me for documentary. We're working
on what's happened since that transpired? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, we showed up and we kidnapped you for a
little bit so that you could tell us some stories. Well,
let's see, that does seem like a long time ago.
We have been filming other films, filming other movies and
the one that you're in American Werewolves too, which it

(01:36):
was kind of it should have been out by now,
but then we had an issue with our distributor, so
it's kind of been put on the back burner. It
should be coming out, though very soon. I don't think
I'm allowed to say yet, but we have an official
date now, so it'll be within it'll be within the month.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
I'm looking forward to that. I've been expecting my copy
in the mail just any time. I'm anxious to see
how it turned out. But it was great meeting Seth
and the crew and then getting to meet you in
person finally.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yes, yes, it was great to finally meet you. Let's see,
we went to British Columbia and we filmed there for
on the trail of Bigfoot the Origin, So we've done that.
Right now, we're in the midst of and this is
about the only thing that has my brain occupied at
the moment. We're in the midst of our Kickstarter and
that takes up all of February for us, So that's

(02:30):
the biggest thing right now, trying to get our kickstarter
funded as much as possible and that'll help get us
through the year.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, and I saw the notification on Facebook. I'll put
a link to that in the show notes for the
kickstarter there and everybody go pledge or support to that.
It's a great franchise they've got going there out How
many are they up to now with a small town
Monsters series? Uh?

Speaker 2 (02:56):
How many movies? You mean?

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Oh my goodness, Well, I don't know, it's got to
be close to twenty at this point, if not more.
I don't have the number off the top of my head,
but it's a lot.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
Yeah, I know it's out there. And then there's a
great great cannon have worked there. I've only seen a
few of them, but they are all just incredible movies
and really looking forward to see the one that I'm
in now. Is that going to be premiering like at
some film festivals and things like that, or some conferences,
paranormal conferences or are you allowed to say so?

Speaker 2 (03:28):
American Werewolves two did actually premiere last ball in Kentucky
to an audience and it was very well received, But
as of right now, it's not scheduled for any premieres.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Now, Okay, that's still good to hear though. At least
it's out there, and it did get good reception and
hopefully nobody laughed at my part too hard.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Absolutely not. And our Kickstarter backers they've had access to
it so and it's gotten good reviews from them as well.
So that's the other bonus of kickstarter backing is that
you get access to films, even if we have issues
with the distributor, you get access to the films early.

Speaker 1 (04:04):
So yeah, and I've worked some in film and getting
that coverage right away to see how it plays, that's
just invaluable. Think of those people as your test audience
if you will.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yep, definitely.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
So let's just start at the beginning here. Like I said,
you wrote and narrated some things for me over on
my thirteen Past Midnight channel, which is still on hiatus.
I'm going to be bringing it back, but I'm back
on Missing Persons and Mysteries. I now own that channel,
so that's getting a lot of my time and attention.
Just under two hundred and seventy five thousand subscribers over there,

(04:44):
and then in the interim, I started among the missing,
and I've gotten I think one hundred and four k,
hundred and five k over there now. So I've been
a busy guy that just published my twentieth book this
last year, if you count one that Cisco and I
co wrote, and had a couple other co You're just
in there on some of these recent ones. But yeah,
uh no, moss growing under this rolling.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
Stone and that's good. That's good.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, thank you. But what garnered your interest in the paranormal?
Did it start like so many of us in early
childhood or were you a light blimmer when it came
to all things dark and scary or what's your personal story.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Oh, it definitely started wheneber I was young. It's very
very much tied to what was on TV at a
very young age, unsolved mysteries with something that was on
the TV every week, and that garnered my attention, almost
like a morbid curiosity to a certain extent. I remember

(05:43):
very vividly an episode about the Yeti and being afraid
of the Yeti as a result of that. Also, spontaneous
human combustion was one of the episodes, and I had
this unrealistic fear that that was going to be how
I'd meet my demise at some point in my life, hope.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, that one always scared me too. I remember reading
about that when I was a kid, probably in the
of those readers digest tales of the Paranormal books, or
maybe even the Time Life Library had the picture of
the lady there that I think I legged was all
that was left a burnmark on the chair, and that
used to to scare the daylights out of me. I'm like,
what if I spontaneously combussed that and quicksand? Now I'm

(06:23):
a little bit older than you are, maybe a lot
older than you are. But if you watch TV in
the late sixties in the early seventies, particularly westerns, quicksand
was the thing, and it got a lot of people
and almost got you know, some of my heroes, Daniel
Boone and his son Israel and Davy Crockett and gun Smoke.
People are always getting in quicksand. But yeah, shc spontaneous

(06:45):
human combustion. Bigfoot. I used to actually go out looking
for bigfoot when I was a kid. I don't know
what I've done if I'd found one.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
But that's a great question.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
What would you Yeah, I've wondered about that. These people
that go out looking for it and they play the
mating calls and stuff. Well, what if that works and
all of a sudden an amorous bigfoot comes charging out
of the woods. Do you run? Do you stay in
teck one for the team or in that situation? I
often wondered about that.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, things to think about, for sure. Yeah, another thing
you mentioned Quicksand I do remember also being extremely afraid
of the Bermuda Triangle. Even though I have yet to
go over the Bermutera Triangle, I was positive that if
I did, I would disappear. That was another thing that
was very common when I was younger.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, Charles Burlitt's book about that was out in that
era anyway, And yeah, that one frightened me. I've yet
to fly over it as well. I've been in the
edge of it, but that's about as close as I
want to get. But and some of my research and
things that I've done, there are a lot of triangles
out there. They are all over the place. Here in

(07:57):
New England where I'm at. You've got the Bennington Triangle,
then you've got the Nevada Triangle. There's an Alaskan triangle,
there's a one in northern California. What is it with triangles?
Maybe you can enlighten us from your work as a
professor there and then look back into history or maybe
even prehistory. Is there something mystical about the triangle?

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Well, it's one of the strongest shapes. Right. We've got
pyramids and we're always fascinated by those and how they
were even built. But with these triangle areas, it seems
to be that you've got the a conglomeration of sightings
in one area, and I think, just human nature, we're like, okay,
we're the outer limits of this. Let's make three points

(08:44):
and oh, it's a triangle. It also sounds a lot
better than like the Bridgewater Rahmas or some.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, or the Alaska do decahedron or something like that. Right,
there's something about those being able to find three points.
And I know it's always easy to connect the dots
in reverse, but it does appear to be within a boundary.
And again there there's a mysticism with the triangle. You know,

(09:11):
from a mathematical perspective and then from an alchemical and
metaphysical perspective. But a lot of those pesky triangles out there,
and I hope I don't get caught in any of them.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Well, and that's the one of the things of small
town monsters that we've started in the last At this point,
it's been a couple of years now, we started a
publishing company and one of our early books was The
Texas dog Man Triangle by Aarondese, and that the whole
idea of the dog Man Triangle came about after Aaron

(09:43):
had accumulated all of these stories through historical and modern
day times and realized, oh wait, they're pretty concentrated in
an area, and look, lo and behold, there's three points.
Let's make that the Texas dog Man Triangle.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
I'm saying, I find that fascinating. I haven't I heard
anything about this. I'll definitely have to read that book.
Can you elaborate on that a little bit without giving
too much of the book away?

Speaker 2 (10:08):
So the Texas dog Man Triangle, the points are roughly
around Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, and Houston, So it's
a pretty decent size triangle. But then again, Texas is massive,
so it really isn't that big on the general scale
of things. But yeah, there are stories back from even

(10:30):
the eighteen hundreds of these creatures that are bipedal canine,
half human half canine creatures that have been aggressive. They're
very rarely. I mean, you just don't hear stories necessarily
about them being something that you want to encounter. They're not,

(10:53):
I don't know. They don't seem as friendly as maybe
your local bigfoot, but they're sightings that are accumulated in
that area between those three points that are historical and
modern day. And even after Aaron put the book out,
which I'm sure you can attest to this from being
an author as well. Once you get the book out there,
then you get more sightings. You get more people coming

(11:16):
in that have read the book and they're like, actually,
I live in that area as well, and I had
an encounter.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
So his.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Database of sightings has grown since the book has come
out as well, just kind of adding to yes, this
is a definitive area where there seems to be a
concentration of dog maned sightings.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah, that's been my experience too. People read the book
and then they want to add something to it. Every
single one of my books, and a couple of them
have been updated to new editions. But like Strange Things
in the Woods, that's actually two volumes combined. That was
originally Strange Things in the woods and more Strange Things
in the wood my publisher combined. But I've got enough

(11:56):
for a second volume of those, and that's just things
in the woods. I mean, there's strange things in the water,
strange things in the sky, strange things on the farm,
strange things in the city. It's just strange as a
relative term there. But people seem to be more aware
of it. I don't know. Maybe it's just me since
I've published those books and gone on a lot of
shows and have my own shows and stuff now, but

(12:18):
there seems to be just a higher interest in it.
There was a lot in the seventies, particular nineteen seventy
three that was a big UFO year. There was a
huge UFO flap in seventy three, and even my family
jumped on that bandwagon. My brother lived on the highest
point around where we lived, and a lot of like

(12:42):
a Friday night or Saturday night, we would go over there,
get lawn chairs set out in his yard and watch
the skies and we saw anomal of stuff, stuff that
made no sense, stuff that wasn't airplanes or jets or
anything like that. But then it all just kind of
died down. Those things tend to come in waves like that,
flaps they call them, and I think that's true of
anything cryptid or paranormal. There seems to be certain times

(13:07):
when it's more active or more prevalent. And I hear
from people now that the study that side of it,
that the veil is thin and that's why. I mean,
it's always it's thin around a certain time of year
in the Pagan and Celtic beliefs, but now I've heard
people say that it's getting thinner all the time, all
the time, year round, and that's why all this is

(13:30):
ramping up. Maybe that's so, or maybe it's just with
the advent of the Internet and being able to communicate
worldwide with somebody. I mean, you're sitting in Ohio, I'm
sitting in New England, but we're talking like we're right
here next to each other. I think that's just It
has indeed made the world a smaller place and more
people are willing to share. Because back like one of

(13:51):
the strange things in the woods, a lot of those
stories were from friends of my family and people that
my it's new and things like that. The ninety nine
percent of the people in that book had passed on
now and they were read some to tell those stories.
But the tea I'm kind of going me sometimes it
was like they had to get a log chain and
drag it out of them. And one old gentleman, Auto Daro,

(14:17):
He's been passed for several years, but he would tell
me things when he found out I wasn't going to
laugh at him or make fun of him that he
hadn't even shared with his wife. She'd be sitting there
while we were talking. She's like, you never told me that,
and they'd, you know, have some lib responsible you'd never ask,
or something like that. But I think people are more
open to talking about it now. And has that been
your experience with the small Town Monsters? Is it easier

(14:40):
the longer you do it, Is it easier to find
witnesses to come forward and talk about what they see
or in some cases didn't see.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, I think it definitely has helped that we've I mean,
small Time Monsters has been around since Minerva Monster came
out in twenty fifteen, and just the fact that we've
been around for a while and people can actually look
at our body of work and see that we're not
going to make fun of them has been a boon
for us as far as getting people to feel comfortable

(15:08):
talking to us. As a researcher for small town monsters,
what I've noticed is there are certain cryptids where it's
a lot easier to get people to talk because it
is more accepted. Bigfoot, it's a lot easier to get
people to come forward and tell you that they had
an encounter with Bigfoot because it just seems to be
more socially accepted. Right now, dog Man is a little iffy,

(15:29):
But when you get into other things like sometimes UFOs
can be a little trickier. Although that is starting to
shift as well with everything that's happening in our culture
on the news, you know, the government's coming forward and
saying yes, there's been UFOs or UAPs rather, that's making

(15:50):
it a little easier. But I have stories from people
that had odd encounters of things that don't necessarily fall
into the pop culture look at the at the strange
if that makes sense, and they're more reticent to come
forward with anything. So and then as far as the

(16:10):
movies that we've done, it was difficult to get people
to American werewolves too. That you're in that's titled the
skin Walkers. It was very difficult to get people to
come forward and talk about any type of skin walker encounter,
which is not surprising. But I don't think that that
stigma is necessarily going away, even if we have shows

(16:32):
out there like Skinwalker Ranch. That is just a cultural
thing that isn't going to change.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Yeah, I agree, And just because they put it on
TV and put it where it can be consumed by
a mass audience, I think that raises the awareness and
gets more people interested in people. I spoke to a
guy not too long ago that he thinks finding Bigfoot
or something like that that he'd caught an episode of
and had no interest in it prior to that, and

(17:01):
then suddenly he's hooked and devouring everything he can find
about the subject, reading books, watching other shows, actually going
out in the field and doing some research. So I
think sometimes it's just that little little spark that Genny
ciqua if you will, that excites these people like, Hey,
I didn't know this was out here, and there's all

(17:21):
this work and media that you can consume. And I
don't know if people like that will stay in it,
but at least it's nice to have an interest in
it for a while, even if you go on to
something that I'm on. My personal taste and interest even
in the paranormal change. While I was big into UFOs
as a child, I kind of grew out of that

(17:42):
went more into Bigfoot and then from that into other cryptids,
and that's kind of what got me into the missing
people stuff too. And now I'm kind of circled back
around and coming another interest in UFOs, but I like
the classic cases. I've got a new YouTube channel. It's
not very big, about thirty five hundred subscribers, called from Beyond,

(18:03):
and we're looking at some of the classic UFO cases recently.
First episode we covered the Betty and Barney Hill alleged
abduction from here in New England. The week prior to
that we looked at Rendalstrom Forrest, which has been called
the UK's Roswell, and there's some some good stuff out
there back during that era, you know, before all the

(18:26):
abduction tom foolery and not discounting anybody's beliefs or theories
or anything there. I spoken to UFO conference and met
a lot of abductees that they believe what they say,
and that gives me, you know, the belief in their testimony,
I think, but I like it when it was, you know,

(18:47):
everybody that was men from Mars or moon men or
the Little Green Men and their flying saucers and things
before it got beyond that. And so you mentioned UFO
or UAP. What do you think the reason is for
the name change this far into the game. Why would

(19:09):
they suddenly just start calling it a UAP when we've
been used to UFOs for decades?

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Well, that is that is a great question. I I'm
not sure other than they're trying to make a broader term,
perhaps to cover more things, and maybe UFOs just seemed
outdated for them, or maybe we're actually behind the times
and they don't actually use that anymore. Maybe they're just

(19:39):
throwing us a bone and saying, yeah, we called it
UAPs while you guys are busy calling it UFOs. Could
be that now we have another term.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah. And I had a comment or on one of
my live streams this week on from Beyond he said,
it's to make it harder to search for things in
a four you request a Freedom of Information Act? Thought
about that if you're I hadn't either. If they're calling
it a UAP now, but you're looking for UFO information.

(20:07):
People that just come along and get into it now
maybe not even realize that UFO was the preferred nomenclature
before it went to UAP, So it could be that's
a good point, classic mixed direction there.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, I would not put it past anybody.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
And full disclosure. Do you think that it's coming or
do you think we'll ever find out for sure? Or
is it just too immerse, too hidden from view that
to ever be revealed, because that would destroy a lot
of paradigms, if you will, if we did get full
disclosure in the way that people expect. What's your thoughts

(20:48):
on that.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
I think that that is definitely a concern that it
would cause issues, especially in the religious community. But I
feel like at some point it'll just be I think,
on down the line, not anytime, probably not in my lifetime,
but I think that it'll just it'll be something that

(21:12):
they can't deny anymore and we will all know. We
may not know the extent of anything or but I
don't think that we're going to be able to live
forever with this with blinders on that there's nothing else
in the universe except us, So I think it'll come
out eventually. I think it's kind of it'll probably be

(21:34):
a situation where the government's hand is forced, so to speak.
That would be my guess.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, and I agree with that. And I don't know
at this point what it would take to convince everybody.
I mean, there's been people that have been with people,
have had these first hand experiences and they didn't believe
what they saw. So again, I don't know if if
one landed on the White House lawn and came out
and shook hands with people, people, Oh, that's that's AI

(22:08):
generated at CGI. It's a deep fake or Project Bluebeam?
Are you familiar with that? I am not. It's supposedly
Project Bluebeam one word. It's a type of I don't
know if it's an apparatus or how it works, but
it's a militarized thing where they can project a hologram
that you can't tell the difference from the real thing,

(22:31):
and according to which conspiracy theory you subscribe to, they
can beam it straight into your head. It doesn't even
have to be a physical manifestation. They can cause you
to see it in your brain. I guess I'm not
sure all the ins and outs of it. But you know,
used to they say to believe what was it a
quarter of what you read and half of what you

(22:52):
see or something. Now we can't believe anything that we
see or hear with all the AI. I know a
lot of people they're scared of it, and it can
cause some problems and things, but I see it as
a tool. It can be beneficial. It's like anything like that.
Like when my dad was small, people were scared of electricity.

(23:13):
He said, he's heard creatures in the pulpit talk about electricity.
You know, you're fooling with something you shouldn't fool with it.
It's going to destroy the world. But yet it didn't,
and it change everything. And I heard the same about
nuclear power and things like that, and then that came
to you know what's next, and somebody's going to be

(23:33):
afraid of everything. And there are people that are averse
to any kind of change, and I get that. I
don't like especially swift and sudden change. But I'm open
to new ideas. But what do you think about CERN
and what's going on over there? Do you think they're
tampering with something they shouldn't add to as the saying
goes or what's your belief on that? Is it changing

(23:54):
things like the Mandela effect? I've heard people attribute that
to CERN. What's your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah, that's funny. I didn't realize that people were attributing
that to CERN. No, I think that they're I don't
think that they're messing with something that they shouldn't mess
with over at CERN. I there's I don't know. This
also comes from more of a personal perspective as well,

(24:20):
because there was someone that went through my school that
worked over at CERN for a while, and like I
knew him, and he was super nice and kind, and
I would like to think that he would have the
sense to not mess with something that he shouldn't mess
with and that this is absolutely all in the name
of science and furthering our understanding of the universe. So

(24:44):
that would be my thought on it. I don't how
horrible if they started to mess with something, yeah, and then.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Advocate here though, what if it's compartmentalized and people that
are good and just are working on this project and
don't exactly know what they're working on now. I draw
from personal experience. Both my parents were a part of
the Manhattan Project and they had an idea of what
they were working on the whole of it. But still,

(25:16):
you know, you had this person doing this and that
person doing that, and the people up above who were
coordinating everything. They knew what they were doing. That's why
part of it was an oak Ridge and part of
it was in Los Almos. They wanted to keep those
visionable materials separate until they got ready to arm everything.
But there was a lot of people there was prior.

(25:37):
There was Clinton Engineer Works prior to O R n
L and the AEC and other agencies that worked out there.
But again they knew they were doing something for the
greater good, but they didn't know exactly what they were doing.
So if that many people, No. Coridge at that time
didn't even exist. It wasn't on any maps. It was

(25:59):
a behind the fence and you had guard shacks at
every entrance into town and you had to show a
badger you didn't get in there. So but nobody talked.
I mean, it was again part of the war effort,
and your silence was necessary and people got called on that.
I've heard about people that attended dances inside the fence

(26:21):
and maybe whispered to their date about something they were
working on and then it was found out that they
had again talked a little more than they should have,
and they were chid for that. If not fired or
you could be arrested. My dad he talked about some
of the documents and things that he had signed. Even
far into retirement. He said there were certain things that

(26:42):
are classified and that are still classified that he wouldn't
be able to talk about ever unless he could lose
his pension and his insurance and all that stuff. So
those people, but again they understood they were doing it
for the greater good. But sure people can they told Yeah,
that's what they were told, And I know, it's just astounding.

(27:05):
And then another conspiracy theory that that gave me particular
insight into was Project paper Clip. And I've heard people
debunk that and say, oh, that didn't happen, it doesn't exist.
But yet my dad, who was a scientist at Olkridge
National Laboratory, he worked right alongside some of those German
scientists that were brought over after the war. And personal story.

(27:27):
I went to school, elementary school with a kid who
was from Germany, and I went home with him after
school one day and his dad was a scientist out
there as well, I spoke fluent German and the kid
my age spoke English. His dad had a heavy accent.
But we were down in the basement. They had like

(27:49):
a wreck room. That was the big thing to have
downstairs in the seventies was a family room or rec room.
And he's like, come here, I want to show you
something and I'm like okay. He push us on the
paneled wall back there and it swings open, and I thought, okay,
he's going to show me a bomb shelter. A lot
of houses built after the war had a bomb shelter,

(28:11):
and because of the Cold War and all that going on,
and I thought, okay, he's going to show me his
bomb shehulter. We didn't have one, but I knew other
kids that had a bomb shelter in their basement. So
he opens it up and he flicks on the light
and here is the biggest display of German war memorabilia
that I have ever seen before since. And what I

(28:32):
don't know if his glass or plexiglass case. There was
a uniform, a very high ranking uniform. And I said, wow,
your dad really loves his war memorabilia. And he said, Steve,
you don't understand. He said that was his uniform. So
he had this little shrine to the fatherland in his basement,

(28:52):
yet he was out working at There's No laboratory right
alongside my dad. So that project vapor clip is not
a myth. So again, you never know. There's a lot
of people that keep a lot of secrets out there.

Speaker 2 (29:06):
Yeah, the compartmentalizing thing, I mean, I understand it, but
it's also scary to think that way, to think about
all the things that people may be working on and
not knowing the full extent of it, and then what
the actual purpose is behind it on a larger scale,
and then you.

Speaker 1 (29:24):
Have places like Area fifty one, you know where there's
things going on that again, everybody there doesn't know what
they're working on. But then you have a whistleblower like
Bob Blazaar. What do you think of his testimony? Do
you think that he's on the up and up ors
he just found a way to opportunize all this.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
I was actually just watching Bob Lazar last night, watching
his interview with Oh what is that? Oh? Joe Rogan,
and I would say that if he's not being truthful,
he's come up with a lot of a lot of
de tales that make it extremely believable. Like I, this

(30:06):
is just first first glance at these things. I did
not detect him lying about anything from from that interview anyway,
because there were just too many, like I said, too
many nuances that he had in there that he's either
a fantastic storyteller or a great a great liar, or

(30:27):
he's telling the truth.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
That was my takeaway from that too. He believes what
he's saying, or seems to me, Yeah, I can say
that of a lot of in the in the UFO
culture things. I've heard Travis Walton speak and you know,
saw him at a conference and listen to him speak.
He believes what he says. He believes that that's what's

(30:49):
happened to Either that or he's the greatest actor that
we've ever seen or the most accomplished liar ever. And
there's a lot of people like that. Even Whitley Strieber,
I've heard him speak before. I don't think he as
the conferences anymore, at least he doesn't do them in
Las Vegas because the casinos don't in force of no
smoking policy. He or they didn't when I was there.

(31:09):
But I believe that he believes what he saw, and yeah,
he made a fortune off books and movies and things.
But I think he is telling the truth as he
knows it about those experience he has been starting with
Communion and beyond m.

Speaker 2 (31:23):
I think that's a good way to put it, that
they it's the truth, is they believe it.

Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, And that's like with my own experiences. I've had
people try to debunk stuff that I've seen, like you know,
you didn't see that, or that didn't happen, or how
could you remember it in that much detail. Well, that's
just the way my brain operates. I can remember things
just an infinite detail. I've got a near photographic memory,
so that's one way I can remember all these details. Plus,

(31:50):
when you have one of those encounters or experiences, it just,
I don't know, it crystallizes in the mind. I can
go back to any of my several especially the really
really scary ones and things that I can remember every
little detail of everything around me, what I had for
breakfast that day, what was going on, what I did afterwards.
I don't know how I could not remember all that,

(32:11):
And just the fact to me that I can recall
it in that grade of detail just shows to me
that that's it's real. You know, in my mind, I
was there, I know what happened. I know what I
saw or didn't see or felt or heard, and nobody's
ever going to convince me otherwise.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Right, Yeah, exactly. I mean you were there, you had
the experience.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Yeah, so especially, I don't care if anybody believes it
or not, you know, like Ripley's believe it or not,
this is Stockton's believe it or don't. I don't. I
don't care. That might be a name for a podcast.
I like it, but again, you know, I'm not here
to win any friends or influence any people. I'm just

(32:54):
sharing what's happened to me and hopefully make it a
little easier for other people to share what's happened with them.
And that was one thing I wanted to ask you
with small town monsters, have you ever had a showing
of those, like in a retirement home or an old
folks home or anything like that. No, but that's the

(33:14):
things I do with my books. I like to go
and do a reading, and especially with strange Things in
the woods or even my strange world, and a lot
of times they'll just be like somebody like, ah, what's
this scrap? There's no beingo tonight, And they'll sit there
and they'll do their knitting or their crochet or whatever,
and then they just get up and leave. But usually
there'll be a couple of people hang around after the

(33:35):
reading is over, and I know what's coming up, And
usually it'll be an older gentleman and he'll sidle up
to me and say that story you had about the bar,
and he said, let me tell you what happened to you,
what happened, sorry, let me tell you what happened to
me when I was a kid. And then the story
just comes out, and maybe you know, this guy's been
sitting on it for decades, and yet by hearing me

(33:57):
tell my stories or tell other people's story in the
cases chrange things in the woods, it frees him up.
And otherwise that story might not have ever seen the
light of day. Maybe he didn't tell to anybody could
have taken it to the grave with him. And that's
part of the commission that I'm doing here. I'm getting
these stories out there so that they'll live on longer
than the people that told them, like instoring things in

(34:19):
the woods, or longer than me I'm hoping, you know,
I'm building a legacy here, and I've encouraged other people
to write Cisco Murdock, Mark, Anthony Wyatt. There's a lot
of stuff here that you know, I've kind of been
like a Johnny apple Seed to some of this. But
I wonder what kind of response you would get if
you showed those in that type of setting. If it

(34:39):
would scare the pants off those old people, or if
there would be some that would stick around and share
their stories. You might might want to give that a thought.
Mentioned that the sentence about any things.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Yeah, that would be really interesting, especially because we are
so close to where like Minerva Monster. I mean, I
live in Minerva, so we're not far at all from
where that happens. So to show that and then see
what their reaction would be.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Yeah, And you could do it, you know, in the library,
you could do it in schools. That's another thing. Another
undermined segment. I said, old people or senior citizens are
one of our greatest wealths as far as folklore and
stories and things. But another audience that I found is
the teenagers. I go to a skateboard park or anywhere

(35:25):
where teenagers congregate and say Hey, if you were going
out on a date and you wanted to go parking
someplace spooky, where's the Craybaby Bridge, where's the white Lady
walk or the lady in white or whatever? And those
they know all those places too. I did when I
was a kid, right, The adults didn't pass it around

(35:45):
like kids did. And I think that's the way a
lot of these urban legends. And in the South, particularly
in the Appalachians, there's there's a cry Baby bridge in
every little community. And I don't know if it's like
a version of the telephone game, or somebody heard it
and then just retold it, but they added in a
location that their audience would know, or if there's really

(36:06):
I mean Texas, there's cry Baby bridge there. And then
the same with the tunnel where the or the there
it's a railroad track, I think where the kids put
their hands on the car and push you over.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Oh right, yes, there's a.

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Railroad tunnel in the Kingsport, Tennessee. It's like that since
about tunnel. There's just the same stories in different locations.
So it makes me think somewhere sometimes that really happened
and it just got passed around. Another example, my mom's
from East Tennessee. She grew up, was born in the
CAD's Cove area or the Smoky's like my grandmother. And

(36:39):
then my dad's from Middle Tennessee over on the Cumberland Plateau.
But a lot of the stories that she would tell
that she heard as a child, he had heard them
as a child as well, even though they were six
years apart, but in a local setting, you know, hours
apart by car so again, and this was before the
days of you know, and I guess they could have
heard it on the Red You or something, but this

(37:00):
was stories that they told around the woodstove in the
wintertimer in front of the fireplace. But to me, that's
fascinating the way these stories get passed around and they change.
It is it's like a version of telephone game. Did
you ever play that when you're in school?

Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, things are vastly different sometimes by the
end of the game.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
Yeah, well you mentioned being there enter near Minerva. Now
there's something about you can agree or choose to disagree
with me here. There's something about Ohio in general that
has the strangeness to it that there's the little pockets
of weirdness there. And I mean that in the kindest
and best possible way, that's good. But yeah, I don't

(37:46):
know if you know the brothers from the belief Ale podcast, Chris,
Jeremy and John. They're out of Ohio and they are
among my three favorite Ohioans, and they've investigated a lot
of stuff there and realize that there's just something strange there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, I agree. I think we've got something here between
the we're in the foothills of the Appalachians and then
we've got the rivers all around here. I think when
you get the confluence of all of those things together,
plus the history, just the history in the area, the
tribes that were once here, the mountain builders that were here. Yeah,

(38:25):
we've got We've got a lot going on in this area,
that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
Yeah. And then of course you have stuff around the
West Virginia area and the Kentucky areas that goes over
into Ohio. Moss Man and the point pleasant things and
how that all connects. But yeah, what I was on
their show, they interview me. That's one of my favorite
interviews that I've ever done, if not they favorite. I

(38:50):
said to them that I was sharing some my Ohio
experiences as a child, and I said, you know, any
state they gave us Dean Martin Larry Flint and the
Cramps is a great state. And they laughed at that.
You know, we've had astronauts and presidents and stuff.

Speaker 2 (39:05):
But yep, excuse me, how to.

Speaker 1 (39:10):
Clear my throat? But again, that's just divergent things that
I could think of that make it strange. It's not
like it's not your normal state, if there is a normal,
but there's just there's an extra weirdness there that I
can appreciate, and it sounds like you can too.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Absolutely, Yeah, I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
Now. Minerva Monster, you mentioned that for those of listening
that might not have heard of that. Can you give
us a little background on what the Minerva Monster is?

Speaker 2 (39:40):
Yeah, so it's a bigfoot creature. That was a bigfoot
creature that was seen in nineteen seventy eight in Minerva, Ohio.
And he made his appearance with the and why did
their name just escape my escape my brain? Oh, for

(40:00):
goodness sakes, he made his appearance in Mi Nerva with
a family and they called the local sheriff's department, and
of course people came out and looked and pretty soon
it got in the newspapers and then without fail, people
were showing up from all over the place to try
to hunt this monster. And yeah, that was I mean,

(40:22):
the family faced a decent amount of ridicule and it
wasn't until we had the documentary come out that some
of them actually got a little more let's see, how
do you say, like a little more acknowledgment. I guess
things were put the peace a little bit better when
the documentary came out, Like, oh, okay, I guess maybe

(40:46):
that did happen. You guys weren't just making stuff up
at the time, which why anybody would make that up.
I don't know why anybody would want that kind of attention,
especially then, but that was what happened. It was in
the seventies and there were a rash of sightings. So
it was the Caton family, that's right, the Caton family.

(41:07):
I knew it'd come to me eventually.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yeah, and I enjoy those stories like that kind of
a one off. I mean, I don't know necessarily that
that is or not, but the things where it just
happened over a short period of time and maybe a
handful of people were like here in New England and Massachusetts.
You have the Dover Demon, which was basically spotted over
two nights, and I think it was nineteen seventy seven,

(41:32):
seventy eight, and then it was just gone and nobody
ever saw anything again, although now looking back, there's people
that claimed that something similar to that had been seen
before and since. But the story that I'm familiar with,
it just happened. And I love that sort of thing.
I love to go to those places. I'm more of
a legendarypper than I am an investigator. I like to

(41:54):
just go and if you will, basking the ambiance and say,
you know, I'm in Dover, this is where this happened.
I have interesting story about that. Back in the eighties,
I'd going to visit a friend that was going to
NYU and one weekend they said, hey, we're going to
go to this house party. Go with us, and it
was in Massachusetts. It was a good drive and ended

(42:15):
up we were in Dover. We went to these people's
house out in the suburbs and they're like, so, Steve,
what do you think of Dover? And I'm like, well,
it's it's different, you know, I'm Tennessee. And then it
was kind of lost ball in highways in New York
and even more so at that time in New England.
And I said, oh, I think it's great. I said,

(42:35):
I've heard about the Dover Demon. They're like the Dover Demon,
and they start yelling for this guy. They're like Bill, Bill,
come here, come here, and this guy. And then there
was two guys named Bill, one William and the other
was named Bill. I don't remember which one exactly that
I met, but he was at this house party in
Dover and he came out and he just he seemed
kind of embarrassed or kind of humbled because his friends

(42:56):
are making a big deal. But I spoke with one
of the witnesses about it a year or two after
it happened, and again he believed what he saw, sure,
And I believe it was the one that drew the
initial pictures of it. So if again, there was a
Bill and a William that were eyewitnesses, but I don't know,
you know, lost in the mists of time. I was

(43:17):
in college at the time, and a lot of that
is in a haze.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
I understand the years after the fact. If you were
to come to Minerva now and you would go past
the Caton's house, they still live in the same house.
They've embraced it. Now they have a big foot statue
outside of their home. Yeah, they'll talk to you about
it now.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
And I talked about that it was on this show,
or I do a blog called Around the Campfire. I
might have talked about it over there. How a lot
of times communities have learned to embrace these cryptids or
these strange occurrences and they turn it into something that's
good for the local economy. They saw soupers. They have

(44:00):
a festival and they get people talking about it, like
they have the Mothman Festival and then right the flat
Woods Monster. You know, that's a big deal. And I think,
what better way to share this than to make it
a community wide thing. And yeah, it's kind of kitchen
with the souvenirs and some of that, but it's fun
and it gets an interest up. I mean, kids will

(44:22):
always remember, you know, when I was a kid, they
took me to the Mothman Festival, you know, and we
saw this and we saw that, And I think that's
a great way to continue interest in all things weird
and spooky.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Oh, I agree. I think it's one of the smartest
things that community could do right, especially right now, it
seems that pop culture is wanting more of these stories.
There were wanting to hear about more monsters, and these
festivals are just they're doing well. So you're not only

(44:55):
preserving the story, you're helping, like you said, helping the
local economy. I don't know what a town like Point
Pleasant would be like without the Mothman Festival.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
It'd be a new age mill town without the mill
I agree.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
Yeah, so that's one of the best things that they
could have done for their for their town was to
have that Mothman festival and have the museum and really
embrace it and not shun it so much. Now there
are places where we've been uh Louisiana, Missouri, I believe
is the name of the town where Momo was the

(45:31):
which was another Bigfoot creature in the seventies nineteen seventy two.
I believe they embraced the story of Momo, the whole
craze of it early on after the initial sightings, but
then have shunned it. So when small town Monsters went
over to do the Momo documentary, they were actually told
by some locals, you might as well just leave because

(45:52):
you're not wanted here. But that's another river town that
I think would greatly benefit if they were to embrace
Momo and start to have a festival or something, draw
people in, bring bring tourists, and there's there is something
encrypted tourism, you know that and scared tourism. Good ways
to bring bring in money to the local economy and

(46:14):
then to keep the story alive as well.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah, and especially with some of the places now that
they're doing excuse me, like the the overnight ghost hunts
and things. Those things would have been demolished or just
left to collapse back into the earth, like Brushing Mountain
Penitentiary in Pittross, Tennessee. You know, now you can go.
They've they've getten some wonderful EVPs and experiences and stories

(46:38):
out of there. Some of the true crime locations of
Aliska Axe murder house, you know, the Lizzie Borden House
that's a bed and breakfast. Now, you know, it's just
and it's kind of morbid, but there's I think just
that's one of our characteristics as humans. We haven't innate
curiosity about the darker side of things. Said, I'm thankful

(47:01):
for that. It's provided me the opportunity to go to
a lot of places and talk to a lot of
people in front of a lot of people, and and
you know, write a lot of books and things and mh.
But yeah, embrace the strange.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah, exactly. And having these places open to the public
allows for the folklore to continue, right, We get to
actually be a part of it, morphing and changing, like
in real time, something like Lizzie Borden House or like
you mentioned Brushy Mountain when we're when we're now, it's
focused on ghost hunting in the paranormal. Now that gets

(47:38):
to take on a whole other chapter in the story
of those areas, and that's pretty awesome. We have a
place not far from here, Mansfield Reformatory, which is where
Shoshank Redemption was filmed.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
I heard a lot about it. Have you been there?

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Oh, I've been there multiple times.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
And do you share with our audience a little bit
of your experiences there? I've only seen it on but.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
Wow, sure, sure. Yeah. It's it's a gorgeous a gorgeous
piece of architecture. It just looks like a castle when
you drive up up to it. It's one of my
favorite buildings. But the Mansield Reformatory is where I had
probably the most terrifying encounter that I've that I've had
to that I've witnessed. And it's weird. It's weird to

(48:24):
stay terrifying because I wasn't It's not like a bigfoot
running out of the woods, you know, and trying to
eat you or something. I didn't think that I was
going to die or anything like that. But up in
one area of the Reformatory, it's called the West Attic,
it is where once upon a time, okay, when the

(48:45):
Reformatory was built. It was built literally as a reformatory,
meaning that they wanted to reform the people that came
in there, they had some issues. They would come in,
they'd stay for a while and then hopefully be able
to go back out to society and join the rest
of the world without an issue. It was never meant
to be a place for murderers and those who could
never go back to society. But in the early nineteen hundreds,

(49:09):
the Ohio State Penitentiary, which is where they had death row,
there was a horrible fire. This was around Columbus, a
horrible fire and the place burned down. Lots of people died,
but they had inmates then that needed to be rehomed
for a little while until they could rebuild the penitentiary.
So what they did was they shipped some of these
hardened criminals up to Mansfield and they put them in

(49:32):
the West Attic, which is just one massive room that
is about half the size of the prison itself because
it's all in one wing, the size of one whole wing,
just one big open room, and they shoved all the
guys in there and just kind of left them be
to their own devices. So today, as you can imagine,

(49:54):
from what I understand, the guards didn't even go into
that room. They just kind of let them do their
own thing, but the them up in the West Attic
so that they would be away from the other criminals
that were in the regular cells. They didn't want the
bad influence to infiltrate. So anyway, today, when you go
to mansoord or Formatory and you're going on a paranormal investigation,

(50:15):
if you go up to the West Attic, what it's
most famously known for is you go and sit. There
are no windows at all in this room, there's just
one door in and out, and you go to the
far end of the room. You sit down and you
just watch, and as you're watching, you'll start to see

(50:36):
like ghost lights start to fly around the room different colors,
So that in itself is pretty neat. That's one of
my favorite things to see or like the ghost lights
like that. But what happened when we were there, and
this has happened multiple times now that I've been there,
but the first time that it happened, it was the
most stunning. Of course, we were sitting there and these

(50:59):
lights showed up and then all of a sudden, on
the floor at the far end of the room, this
light being it's like the opposite of a shadow person,
Like a shadow person that you see, it has the
defining characteristics of a human, but it's in shadow. Except
that was this, except it was in light. Because the
room was completely dark. We were sitting there in the

(51:20):
pitch black, and this was illuminated being that was walking
back and forth, and it would walk closer to us,
and it would get within I have no idea how
many feet because it was dark, so it was very
difficult to gauge distance. But when it would get fairly close,
then it would drop down on all fours and crawl
at you, and then it would back up, but it

(51:44):
would pace in the room, and it was illuminated. It
wasn't like I mean, it was a self contained light
system light source, but it illuminated enough that when it
would go by the wall, you could see the walls
start to light up, so we could tell when it
was by the wall. We could tell when it was
by the cross beams that were in the middle of
the room, because those would light up with it. That

(52:08):
was terrifying to me, just because that shouldn't exist, or
at least in my mind, shouldn't exist. And so that
is the probably the most terrified I've ever been on
an investigation. But after I had that experience, I was
not alone. There were other people with me, so at
least I had other people to verify what we had

(52:30):
all seen. But after I had that experience, I would
go on different podcasts or talk to other friends that
are in the paranormal community, and I would try to
explain this, and no one seemed to have a similar story.
They didn't know, like, I don't know what to call this.
I still have no name for it, And people would

(52:51):
talk about it and want to know if they could
see it, if they went as well, and Luckily, I
was fortunate enough to go back to Mansfield just a
few months ago with some friends who had known the story,
and I told them, let's go up to West Attic
and just see if anything happens. You know, I can't
guarantee that you're gonna have the same experience as I did.
I don't know, but the night that I saw it,

(53:13):
we were able to see it multiple times throughout the evening.
We would leave and go to other areas of the
prison and then come back and that figure would show
up again. Well, sure enough, a couple months ago, when
I was there with a whole new group of people,
they all saw it as well. It manifested again. They
all saw it. They were all equally as nervous as

(53:34):
I was, and they it would get close and then
a couple of the women would say, turn the lights on,
turn the flashlight on, flashlight on, and then of course
when the lights on, then you don't see anything. But
that's my scary, scariest story from ghost hunting in general,
but also my story from Mansfield. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Wow, that's amazing And if I'm ever in the area,
I definitely want to check it out. Now, did the
people you were with either time or both times. Did
they see pretty much what you saw or was it
different experiences for different people maybe based on their cognition,
or was it a shared experience.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
So it's interesting that you asked that. The first time
that I was there, the first time I had that experience,
we all seem to see the same thing because we
would sit there and as we're seeing it, we're like,
what are you seeing? What are you seeing? And asking
each other consistently, and everybody's repeating the same things that
they're seeing the same colored same colored lights, same action

(54:33):
of the figure, and so on. So we were all
seeing the same thing this last time that we were there.
Everybody was seeing it, but it seemed to be and
this was odd as well. It seemed to be doing
different things depending on who was seeing it. Like I
could see it walk along the wall, because I could

(54:54):
see the wall illuminate. But as I'm saying that, someone
else is saying, it's coming right down the middle of
the floor, or you know, it's coming to the other
side of the room like they seem to be. Or
the one person said they saw it walk up the wall,
which I didn't see that at all, but they were
seeing different things and sometimes different colors than what I

(55:18):
was seeing, which was odd, and.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
I've always found that interesting. But I liken it to
the parable, if you will, or the Blind Men and
the elephant. You know. Once, oh, it's got a trunk,
I said, No, it's flat and wide. The other No,
it doesn't have a trunk, it has a tail, you know.
So even though they're doing the same thing, there's a
different takeaway, but yet they all experienced the same thing.
I think it's kind of like that, and again, just

(55:44):
a different perception. Maybe it presents itself to different people
in different ways. Some of the things that I've experienced,
I had people right along with me that had either
a lesser experience or no experience at all. And I
came to conclusion a few years ago because every house

(56:04):
I've ever lived in was haunted to some degree, and
I finally decided, it's not the houses that are haunted,
it's me. These things choose to reveal themselves to me
for whatever reason. I lived in a very very active
house in Las Vegas, probably one of the most active
places I've ever lived. Yet the person I shared the
house with that lived there before I did, they'd never

(56:26):
experienced anything. And it's like when I got there, then
all hell broke loose, and then they eventually began to
experience things, or at least that they'd admit to. I
think before maybe they were just in denial of what
was going on there. But again, I don't know what
it is about me. Something imbued to me. Is that

(56:46):
the negative rh factor and the green eyes? Is it
all that? Am I an alien? Or you know? I
subscribe to that theory. I don't think I'm from this planet.
I'm just visiting here, got stranded here or something. Take
me home. As long as I can take my wife
with me, let's go. And she's like me, She's always

(57:08):
been an outsider, even among the outsiders. Is I'm not
from this planet? I would go to family reunions and
things and things. I can't really be related to these people,
can I? And I had had proof, you know, had
pictures of me right after I was born and all
that I used to take. You know, am I adopted
or something? What happened to me? And you know my

(57:31):
father and mother are on a spaceship somewhere. They're gonna
come back for me one day if I get abducted.
They took me home, but no, I was. I was
born there. My grandmother witnessed the birth and according to her,
my mom was knocked out. That was back when they
gave women in labor twilight sleep. But I was born
with a veil over my face what they call it
in southern Appalachina the call just the amniotic sac was

(57:53):
still stretched over my head and had to have it
cut away. But in my superstitious granny's eyes, that was
that marked me as a space child. Out of all
the grandchildren, and there was a lot. My mom came
from a big family, her and nine brothers. I was
the only grandchild born with that condition, and that put
a bullseye on me as far as Granny was concerned,

(58:14):
and I was the one she had to pass her
legacy onto. And a lot of stuff like that that
I've read about, it does tend to skip a generation. Now.
My mom had some precognition and things that I don't
claim to have any special abilities or anything. It just
is what it is. But I know things sometimes that
I have no way of knowing, not as strongly as

(58:35):
my grandmother did. But I think to some degree you
have that and script you wrote for me on thirteen
past midnight. You talked about your children shame things and
experiencing things that leg you believe that maybe they were
reincarnated or had had experiences. You want to expound on
that a little bit for our audience.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Yeah, so this happened. I have three children, and this
happened with two of them, my two oldest. I remember.
My oldest daughter was probably three at the time, two
or three maybe, well probably three because of how much
she was talking, I guess. But we were on our
way home from my parents. It was Christmas, I do believe,

(59:20):
and we were stopped at a stop light and she
looked out the window and she looked at the pedestrian
signal and she asked what that was and I said, well,
that's to let you know whether you should walk or not,
you know whether it's safe to cross the street. And
she was like, oh, okay, yeah, I remember, but I
didn't know. I didn't know what that was like or

(59:43):
how'd she say? I forgot it? I know that now,
but I had forgotten it then. And I'm like, what
do you mean? And she said, well, back before, when
I was really old, I was coming home from getting
groceries and I could see my house across the street.
So I was almost home and I saw that sign
and it was lit up, so it was lit up

(01:00:05):
to say that she shouldn't cross. She's like, but I
forgot what it said or what that meant. So I
crossed the street anyway, and I got hit by a
car and then an ambulance came and picked me up
and took me to the hospital. And she was like,
nobody was at the hospital. I was alone and it
was cold and it was dark. But she and she's like,

(01:00:30):
I was so scared, and I'm like, what do you
And as she's explaining this, she's sobbing, she's just crying,
like hysterically, and we're trying to calm her down because
we're driving and you know, a kid in the back
seat that's freaking out is no fun whenever you're you're
trying to drive home in the middle of the night.

(01:00:50):
But uh, she was. She just kept going on. She
was very hung up on the being cold and dark
and alone part of it. So we eventually got her
calm down, and we'd asked her some questions after that,
and essentially she just had this memory of her death.
Her everything was cold and dark until all of a

(01:01:11):
sudden there was a light and then she was here
with this family, is what she said. So she just
had this story. She said she was very old when
it had occurred. And I think she gave me a
name at one point in time, but it was just
the first name. And that's not enough for me to
go on to find any records or anything like that.

(01:01:33):
But that was her story. And then it was two
years later my son, who was then three as well,
he's the middle child. We were sitting in the car
waiting for his older sister to get out of school actually,
and he said he saw me on my phone. I

(01:01:55):
was playing a game of some sort, like I don't
know if it was candy Crush or something like that.
And he's like, oh, my, my grandma used to play
that or my I think he used the word that
I we never use like I think he might have
said mema or something like that that we don't use
that word. We've never he's never said that before, you know,

(01:02:19):
she used to play games like that. And I'm like,
what are you talking about, thinking about my mom or
my husband's mom, and like they don't play games like this.
He's like, no, no, no, my mema from before used
to play those games. I'm like, okay, well tell me
about her. And he's like, well, she was really she
was really nice and I lived with her and she

(01:02:42):
was she was just really great and I loved her
very much. He's like, it's really sad what happened. And
I'm like, what happened? And he started to get emotional
as well, and he described living with his grandmother, that
they had been a wonderful family and one night or day,

(01:03:02):
I'm not sure if it was a night or day,
but somebody came into the house and had attacked his grandmother,
and he tried to intervene to save her, but wasn't
able to do so in time. Therefore, he then spiraled
and he said he was so upset that he wasn't
able to save his grandma that he got into a
car and he started driving really really fast, and he said,

(01:03:27):
I drove really fast, and then I lost control and
I hit a tree. And he said, I even remember
what it was like when I hit the tree, and
he's like describing in gory detail how he hit the
dashboard and so on. It was horrible. He's like, but
then it's like I flew out of there, and I

(01:03:50):
flew right into your belly. And I'm like, what do
you mean you flew into my belly. He's like, well,
you were sitting in the living room. He's like, you
were sitting here, or you were sitting there in the
lit room and you were watching TV and eating, and
I flew into your belly. And then I was ready
to come into this new family. And what was really
odd is that, in real like an actual time, whenever

(01:04:15):
I went into labor with him, I was sitting in
the living room and I was I had just gotten food,
sat down, started eating, and I was watching wrestling when
the first contraction hit and we had to get to
the hospital right away. He was a very quick labor.
But yeah, both of them had those stories. Now, my
third child, she's she almost seems new to the world

(01:04:38):
in a lot of ways. She doesn't I don't know.
Everything seems new to her, at least from watching her grow.
Everything seems new and exciting. And she's not the old
soul kind of thing that you hear about. But yeah,
both children had that story of what had occurred to
them in their previous life and that they both their

(01:05:00):
their families before so, and they both had a horrible
ending too. It wasn't like they had this nice story like, yeah,
I grew old and I just passed away with my family.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
No traumatic there, But that's still amazing. And to hear
that come out of the mouth of a three year
old that doesn't have any concept of any of this
and just so matter of factly, and you know that's no.
Kids have great imaginations and stuff. But I have a
whole narrative like that, your entire previous story that would

(01:05:31):
that would take some doing there. I believe there's something
to all that. I've had other friends that where their
child would wake up in the night crying for one
parent or another or grandparents. Well they're right here, No,
I mean the ones from before my other mommy, my
other daddy, when I lived, you know, for and again
small children that had no concept of anything like that.

(01:05:54):
It's it models the mind and it gives you something
to ponder, something to think about.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Absolutely, and they grew out of those memories as well,
if you were to ask them now. I'm glad that
I wrote them down when I did and shared them
with you, and they've been recorded because when they got
to a certain age, they lost those memories.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
So and on hearing that now of what's their response
to that anything?

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Yes, Well, my oldest just rolls her eyes. She rolls
her eyes at anything that's weird or strange. So she's like, yeah, okay,
mom my son. He just he's like, yeah, I think
I remember saying that maybe, but he doesn't. It just
doesn't phaze him.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Yeah, and it's strange. A lot of away. A lot
of those memories, early early childhood memories like that lead people.
I've known people that couldn't remember anything before they were
four or five years old. But I can remember a
bit of detail, like when I was still in diapers
and stuff, and just again I've been blessed with a
near photographic memory and it goes way back. Youngest memory
that's when I was six months old.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:07:04):
I remember going to a place with my dad where
a house was being built and they just had the
foundation and I had a roof on it, and they
had part of the interior wall started. It was basically
just a big open space. I remember him to pick
me up and put me up in there and I
ran around on the sub flooring. And I mentioned that
to my dad when I was like probably in my

(01:07:25):
thirties or something. When I was little. Where do we
go to one time? And I described that scenario and
he looked at me and he said, well, that was
the house you grew up in. But he said you
were only six months old. He said, there's no way
you can remember that, but yet I did. So I
didn't know where it was. I didn't know it was
the house I grew up in. I didn't remember that part,
but I remembered being there and describing that situation exactly

(01:07:47):
as it happened. So starring ch house some things like
that will sticking it and other things maybe have no
memory of, or something that I did in elementary school
or even high school, I'll come back to me like,
oh yeah, I remember when that happened. But I've had
that happened too, where I would mention something that happened
in school years and people that was there with them

(01:08:08):
and I don't remember that, like yay, you were right
there with me. We talked about maybe it was just
so traumatic for them they blotted it out. I don't know.
But getting back into the school part of this now,
I mentioned in the introduction there that you're a classics professor,
How do your students feel about your other fields of

(01:08:29):
interest in fields of devort? Is that something you ever
discussed with them or do you keep your lives separate?

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
Yeah, they're pretty separate. They're not aware of it unless
they were to look into my name, I guess, so
that isn't something that comes up now. I did actually
last fall speak with a college class that was not mine.
It was an English class, I believe, just talking to
them about kind of following, following what you enjoy whenever

(01:08:59):
you go out into the professional world, and then hoping that,
hoping that that becomes something that's fruitful later. So they
were asking me all kinds of questions about the world
of the weird and how I got to be in
there and how that actually became a job, because that's
always the hope, right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
Yeah, I love that and it is. It's such a
blessing to get to do what I do and make
a living doing it, you know, Otherwise I'd be working
in a bookstore or a record store or pumping gas
or something, because I'm not fit for any kind of
normal employment, which I've proven over time, and I've worn
a lot of hats. I've been a network administrator, have

(01:09:39):
been technical support for a large medical group. I've worked construction, demolition,
done a little bit of everything, but writing and talking
seems to be my forte. My dad gave me that
when I was little, because I talked a lot and
he said, boy, he said, if you can ever find
a way to get paid for talking, you'll be set.

(01:10:02):
And here I am so thanks that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:05):
Yeah. He called it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Same one that used to accuse me of having the
ability to talk until I knew what I wanted to say.
And that's true. I've always been very good, had the
gift of gab. And one of my favorite classes that
I ever took in college was extraneous speaking. I'm sorry,
extemporaneous speaking. And people were panicking. You know, you had
they gave you your topic on an index card and you

(01:10:31):
had five minutes to prepare. And I said to the prophet,
I said, that's not extemporaneous. You're giving me five minutes.
I said, I want you to hand me my card
when I get on the podium, and he said, you're
sure you want to do this, Yes, sir, I did it,
and I gave a wonderful talk. It was about the
recite peace treaty or something, but I knew enough about
it to compare and contrast and get through it. And

(01:10:54):
he was impressed, and he said, I bet you can't
do it again, and I said, I bet I can.
I could do that every time. And it's just I've
always read a lot and just have a broad base
of knowledge, and it has provided me with ability to
jack of all trades, if you will, polymath. I know
a little bit about a lot of different things, but

(01:11:14):
I'm really not an expert in any area. And in fact,
nothing scares me away any faster than to be described
as an expert in the paranormal or cryptis or anything,
or for somebody to be introduced to me there, well,
this is Joe Smith. He's an expert in the paranormal. Okay.
I don't think there are any experts. I think we're
all on a quest for more knowledge. And I gave

(01:11:37):
up looking for the answers a long time ago, Heather,
I've often said that now I'm just looking for the
next set of questions. If we had all the answers,
my journey, my personal journey, wouldn't have been near as
much fun and enjoyable as it has been, and soriah
Askath from where the road go. He once quipped it,
it's like this big jigsaw puzzle that we're trying to

(01:11:58):
put together. We don't have the box to even see
what the picture is that we're trying to make. And
yet the farther we get into it, we discovered that
some cosmic joker has mixed maybe a dozen puzzles together.
So maybe the one that we're working on there are
pieces that don't fit anywhere. And I thought that was
very good description.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
Yeah, I agree with that. That seems to be definitely
the way it is. Always coming away with more questions
and answers, that's for sure, And that's the.

Speaker 1 (01:12:29):
Way it's supposed to be. And when I've talked about
my first full body apparition, long story short of the
little boy ran out from behind a car that was
stopped at an intersection. The driver didn't act like he
saw it or whatever at all, didn't acknowledge it in
the least ran kund of candy corner down into our yard,

(01:12:50):
fell down and disappeared a small child. I didn't take
my eyes off the spot, went straight to the spot.
Nothing there, Nothing I could have mistaken for a child. Nothing,
no hole or anything that somebody could have followed into.
I knew every inch of that yard, and we lived
quite a way back off the road, two hundred and
thirteen feet from the edge of our garage to the

(01:13:13):
edge of the road. I measured it later in life
when I was doing BMX prints, but I was about
one hundred feet out in the yard. So this happened,
went right to the spot and nothing there. I even
went and got a shovel out of my dad's tool
shed and dug in that spot to see if there
was something buried there or something. And I told that
story Transisco Murdock and she said, you know, stay, you've
never put down that shovel. You're still digging that. I am.

(01:13:35):
I'm still looking for the disappearing child. That was what
started me on my journey. And I asked Mike Granny
about that. She was very intuitive, self described gypsy witch.
I don't know where the gypsy part came in, but
tot fortunes, red tea leaves and coffee grounds, animal and trails,
things like that. And I asked her about that and

(01:13:56):
she said, well, very cryptic answer. Sometimes you see things
that are meant for you to see. Other times you
see things that are meant for other people to see
and you just happen to see it. Sometimes you'll just
see things that there's no rhyme or reason, no explanation,
that you'll never know, even in retrospect. So there you go.
I don't know, and I still don't. But it started

(01:14:18):
me on this journey. What was that? It didn't scare me.
It's just like, what was that? You know, what just happened?
What did I just witness? And off I went.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
How old were you when that happened?

Speaker 1 (01:14:29):
I was four?

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
Wow? Wow?

Speaker 1 (01:14:33):
And that's I see. I've talked to a lot of
people that between the ages of three and five that
seems to be the prime optimal time to have these
experiences that either shut you down where you don't care,
or make you curious for the rest of your life.

Speaker 2 (01:14:49):
Right, Yeah, but.

Speaker 1 (01:14:51):
More so it makes you curious. And said that it
started me on a lifelong quest. And I haven't got
na for I'm still in that yard, digging with a shovel.
It's just somebody else's yard in a different shovel now,
but still looking for your answers.

Speaker 2 (01:15:06):
I like that. I like that a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
Now the you talked about some of your early experiences.
Was that the one that kind of sets you on
this path or where there are several because I had
other experiences. I had more around the age of between
five and six, and then again around seven and eight.
That just it continued on. It just was non stop
at that point and still that way to a degree.

(01:15:31):
But it was you was that your impetus. Was that
your aha moment when you thought, you know, there's something
else out here and I got to find out what
it is?

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Well, I mean I was always intrigued by, like I said,
watching unsolved mysteries, but beyond that, just in a more
personal vein. My mom would tell me since I was
young that she grew up in a haunted house, and
I would ask her questions about that, like how did
you know it was haunted? And she told me this
story about when she was younger that my grandmother had

(01:16:03):
bought them a Ouiji board for Christmas, and she technically
bought it for my aunt, but it was of course,
you know, that's a group effort for to play a
wigi board, but or it should be, I guess anyway,
So they were sitting and playing with the wigi board
my aunt's freaked out about it, but it started to

(01:16:24):
spell out that there was a spirit in the house.
It said that her name was Elizabeth and that she
lived in my mother's room. So Mom would tell me
this story, and she also then ended it with my
aunt got too freaked out and then had my grandmother
burn the board, which whatever she had her burn the board.
So as I would grow up, we would always drive

(01:16:48):
past that my mother's childhood home on the way to
visit my grandparents because they had moved just down the
road into a different house when they got older, and
she would always point to the house and she would
point to the window that was hers, and she'd be like,
that's Elizabeth's room. And I still know because I live
not far from that place now which room was Elizabeth's room.
But I grew up hearing that story, and I was

(01:17:11):
in third grade, I believe whenever Mom bought me my
first Ouiji board, and I would play on that thing
with my dad, with Mom and my mom's friend that
would come over and do her hair. She was really
gifted with tarot cards and Ouiji boards and things like that.

(01:17:31):
We would play on it all the time, and it
just was I guess. There was a Oigi board in
the house, and it was something that we would get
on and talk to every once in a while. It's
not something that I was like addicted to by any
means or anything like that, but it was something that
was there. It existed, and it was what it was.
Mom grew up in a haunted house. She just grew

(01:17:52):
up in a haunted house. There wasn't a question about it.
And I think just growing up in that in that
realm helped precipitate me being in this world that I'm
in now. It just was. It just existed. And then
as far as where Mom grew up, many years later,

(01:18:13):
it was after I had started working with small town
monsters and I started writing for Shannon Legroux for the
Weird Writer Blog. I decided, let me take some of
my skills that I've learned as an adult and see
if I can find any truth to this Elizabeth story.
So I went to the county courthouse and started looking
up land records and I found actually there was an

(01:18:36):
Elizabeth Lighty that lived in that house. She was on
the deeds, which in itself was rare because this was
in the eighteen hundreds to have a female on the deeds,
but she was there. So there was an Elizabeth that
lived in that house for real, And it was like

(01:18:57):
a full circle moment to have that come back around
and see that that was something that I could actually
verify from this childhood story because I just always knew
the name was Elizabeth and she supposedly lived in that house.
And sure enough, there she is on paper. If you
go to the county courthouse, you can find her. But
that's how I kind of grew up with all of
this stuff. It just existed. It was there, and without question.

(01:19:25):
I had a moment whenever I was younger, I was
probably in probably in middle school, I would say, when
my parents had left to go to the store or something.
They weren't home either way, and I was sitting in
the living room, playing with the dogs and the cats

(01:19:45):
and just watching TV, and all of a sudden, all
the animals froze and they looked behind me, and it
threw me off, obviously that they just suddenly stopped and
they're all staring in the same place. So I turned
around and looked in the doorway leading to the dining room.
Right behind me, there was a man standing in the doorway.

(01:20:07):
Now he was in like Native American garb. But when
I first saw him, I just had this calming feeling
of oh, that's just Dad, you know, like it was
just a fatherly type feeling. I wasn't concerned, I wasn't scared.
I just saw him and I was like, oh, And
I turned back around, and then it caught up to me,
Wait a second, that's not Dad. When I turned back

(01:20:29):
to look a second time, it was gone and the
animals had resumed back what they were doing. So we
of course asked the Ouiji Bord about that later, and
I was told that it was a guardian that was there.
But I don't know things like that would happen. I
would hear footsteps go up and down the hallway, because
there's definitely a way to tell the difference between Mom

(01:20:50):
and Dad's footsteps. They sounded differently if they'd get up
in the middle of the night and walk out to
get a glass of water or something, and it always
sounded like Dad getting up and walking. But when I
would get up to check it wasn't Dad, there would
be nobody there. So I would think in my head, Oh,
that's just that guardian walking down the Hallway again. So
stuff like that is kind of what I grew up

(01:21:11):
with and I think helped helped me be the person
I am now.

Speaker 1 (01:21:17):
And I agree if you're around it and you're exposed
to it, especially in the case of my mom, I mean,
their natural was a supernatural. You know. They had regular seances,
table tapping or table tapping, Wuiji boards, card readings and stuff.
They grew up with it and they just didn't know
any different. And her family were a part of the

(01:21:39):
spiritualism movement from around the turn of the last century.
And the way they got into it initially, they had
a relative that never came back from World War One
and they could never find out what happened to and
I think that ended what nineteen eighteen something like that.
I'm a little rusty with my figures here, but that
was how they got into it. And just as a

(01:22:02):
little girl, you know, my mom participated in those things.
He knew about those things and even up till the
time she married my dad. Prior to them getting married,
the first time she ever took him to meet her family,
they were doing a table tapping session. And now my dad,
he grew up hearts gravel, apple Achia, but he got out,
went the University of Tennessee, my alma mater, and it

(01:22:24):
was already on his path to civil engineering and later
a scientist. But he said, I, you know, it just
did mystified him. He said, they sounded like a bunch
of heathens. They were all sitting around the rise table, Rise, Rise, Rise.
But he said he looked around at every angle. He
made sure, you know, nobody had their toe under one
of the table legs making it rise. Nobody had ruler

(01:22:47):
up their sleeve under the table edge, you know, and
making it lift up. An old parlor magic trick or
anything like that. He said, there was something unseen force
raising that table. And he talked about they would even
take some of the grandkids, or maybe even some of
the smaller kids at that time because my mom had
younger siblings, put them on the table and tried to
get it to rise. And he said that old farm

(01:23:09):
table was creaked and groaned and tried every way in
the world to rise up with that added weight on there,
and it just couldn't do it. But he said, I
had no explanation for it. And later in life he
would talk about things that happened in the laboratory setting.
He said that there'd be times when they were doing
an experiment under extremely controlled conditions when things would just

(01:23:31):
happen that weren't supposed to happen. They could never get
it to happen again. They don't know how it happened,
yet it happened. Some anomalous result, he called it. And
there used to be a zine that I read back
in the eighties called the Journal of every Reproducible Results,
and didn't mention things like that. How sometimes despite everything
we do, the natural laws that we've made come up with,

(01:23:54):
they don't always correspond with supernatural laws and things. And
to me, that's just fast that. You know, here's a scientist,
but yet he has a belief in the supernatural, and
I get it. And he experienced things, you know, when
he was growing up. Now, they weren't as steeped in
it as my maternal grandmother and her family, but they

(01:24:16):
had their share of it, and tales passed around and
hauntings and inexplicable things in the woods and stuff. So
it was there. But I said, on the belief whole
thing that I was born out of the union of
science and superstition and I sprang forth with the best
of both and bewildered, and here I still am.

Speaker 2 (01:24:37):
So that's work.

Speaker 1 (01:24:42):
It does. It sticks with you. And I had wage
board experiences too. I got my first one. I don't
think I was quite six years old yet. It was
between kindergarten and first grade, probably that summer. It might
have been the fall that I started first grade I
talk about in one of my videos. But I was
sick that day and been to the doctor. Had ear

(01:25:04):
nosen throat problems my entire life, had to have tomsels
and adenoids out when I was five. That was traumatic.
Don't catch coals or the flu. The only time I've
ever had the flu. I took a flu shot in
nineteen eighty five and got the flu and thought I
was going to die. I haven't had the flu sense,
I haven't had a flu shot since, so either that
one worked really, really good or it gave me the flu.
But I'd been for some ent malady and we had

(01:25:27):
to stop by the drug store to get my prescription filled.
And I'd wandered back to the toy I my mom
was going to let me get something, and I saw
the Weiji board and it was the old box with
the dark background and the stars and like a blue
hooded figure on the front of it, like a robed figure.
What is this? And she kind of explained it to me, like, oh,

(01:25:50):
I want one, Can I have it? So she got
me one, and I still remember sitting in that I
think it was a sixty two Chevy two, sitting in
the back seat that with my wage aboard in my lap.
And then when we got home, opened it up and
she gave me, you know, some caveats. Don't ask anything
you don't want it to know, don't do it by yourself,

(01:26:10):
don't ask it about your death or somebody's close to
you death, things like that. Don't invite anything in that
you meet on the board, you know, just some general
warnings about it. And then that day we used it,
and school must have been in session, because I remember
the first thing I ever asked it was when will
it snow this year? And it gave a date and

(01:26:31):
I marked it on the calendar and I looked forward
to that date as I love snow, still do. Loved
a snow day though, who didn't, Yeah, sure enough? A
couple of days prior to that, No, not going to snow,
No snow in the forecast, but then overnight where we
lived there in East Tennessee, there was a load that
moved south of us. And when that happened and the

(01:26:54):
conditions were right with the barometric pressure in the wintertime,
we get a snow snow dumped ons had a snow
day on the day it said.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
John Pryor, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:27:05):
And then the next thing, there was a record of
circus music that I coveted from kindergarten and wasn't able
to find it at any of the places I bought records.
I was a huge, vital connoisseur even as a child,
even though mostly children's records. But there was this record
that they'd played for us in kindergarten that I just
had to have. So we got the wageboard out, we

(01:27:32):
consulted it, and it gave us the name of a
fairly obscure used record store on a market square in
downtown Knoxville, and sure enough, my mom looked it up
in the phone book, back when there used to be
such a thing as a phone book, And back then,
even though they were just a few miles apart, it
was long distance to call Knoxville from where we lived

(01:27:54):
in Westtox County. We had an Oak Courage number, and
she called the record store and I gave the title
of the record to the guy and he said, I
don't know, I'll look and see. He's like, I've got
thousands of records in here. He used records, he said,
but if I run across it, I'll call you. And

(01:28:15):
I thought, okay, great, you know I'm not even six yet.
That's the end of that. I'll just keep looking. But
sure enough, But if it was later that day or
maybe the next day, we got a call. It was
the guy calling back and he said, I was in
the back. I was looking for something else and I
just happened to spot that because I'd given a detailed
description of what the cover looked like. He said that

(01:28:36):
just it fell open, and there it was in the stacks,
back there in my albums, and I've got it here.
I'll hold it for you if you want me to.
And of course I begged my mom, and a few
days later we took the trip downtown. And this was
back when you shopped downtown. This was before the real
advent of strip malls or any malls you went downtown

(01:28:57):
to went shopping. He had to get dressed up. You know,
my mom would wear he and pearls and everything. But
we went downtown. We went some other places. I think
we went to J. C. Pennies, and we had lunch
at Crestchi's and things like that, just things that you
did downtown. We had a certain lot where Weed Park,
and my mom knew the parking attendant there. Her family

(01:29:18):
had sold produce there. At there was a produce market
not too far from there, a huge one. And sure
enough we got to the record store, the guy had
it and I rode home with it in my lap.
Thank you with you. But again, you know, not everybody
has a good experience or a positive experience. But Cisco
and I've talked about that. It's a tool, and a

(01:29:41):
lot of it goes on the intent what you're going
to do with it. These days, I wouldn't touch one.
I'm not afraid of them. I've had some experiences. Later,
I'll go ahead and tell that story. I was in college,
I was working at a little restaurant part time, and
the guy invited me to party after work. It was

(01:30:01):
at an apartment complex just down the road from before
we were working there in the Cecar Bluff area. Of
West Knoxville. I thought, sure, I'll go. I didn't really
want to go study or anything anyway that night and
I get there. It's in the clubhouse of this big
apartment complex. I didn't know anybody there besides the guy
that invited me from working. I didn't really know him
other than just from work. So they I don't know

(01:30:25):
if they had it with him, or if they found
it or something. But anyway, some girls came up with
a WIGI board and they decided that they would get
three or four of them to do it, and they
would go around this room in the clubhouse and ask questions.
And they got to me, and the only thing I
said was what scared me when I was a child,

(01:30:46):
and I had a specific, very specific incident in mind.
It was the thing in the woods that chased me
out of the woods that I couldn't see. I never
told that story outside the family at that point. My
immediate family knew it, but certainly I never told it
to the guy that I worked with, and none of
the people at the party knew it. But the girls
who are working the board. It starts doing the figure
eight and it spells out W A T E R S.

(01:31:10):
P R I t e and they look at me.
I just kind of shrugged in their water sprite. It's thirsty,
it wants a drink. Ha ha ha ha. And then
they went on to somebody else. But my next day off,
which might have been the next day, I went to
the big library downtown and I went up to the
reference desk and I said, what can you tell me
about a water sprite or a water spirit? The reference

(01:31:34):
library and goes off into the stacks. A few months later,
she comes back. She's got some books there, and she
showed me a bookie you probably know about this kind
of stuff. There was two of them. There was a
naiad and a dryad. One was a spirit of the
water and the other was the spirit of the woods.
They're very similar, but there are elementals, a type of
the fae, if you will. And according to the Luigia Board,

(01:31:58):
that's what chased me out of the woods was a
water spirit. And it wasn't some little gossamer tinker building.
This thing shook the ground and knocked branches out of
the way higher than my head. I could see the
leaves being kicked up in its way. I couldn't see it,
but I could see the effects it was having on
the natural environment. Ran me out of the woods, not once,
but twice, once at eight years old, again at fifteen

(01:32:19):
years old. But according to Ouija board, it was a
faithfolk at all.

Speaker 2 (01:32:23):
Mental any had Yeah, yep there for some reason.

Speaker 1 (01:32:30):
Why only me, my dad my brother both went up
there and looked around. I haven't took I brought a
kid home with me from school one time. I sent
him up there to go and stand with the edge
of the ditch and see if you see anything. And
I stood way down the hill from behind a tree,
and he just looked at it, you know, looking around.
No nothing but nothing came out of the woods and
chased him around the ditch rather and then I even

(01:32:52):
got brave. I went up closer to the edge of
the ditch and had him stand down the hill didn't
chase me. But the two times that I went up
there alone, one a eight and want to get a
fifteen chase me right out in there. What was that?
I mean, what do you know anything about a nyad?

Speaker 2 (01:33:08):
Just basically what you said. Their water spirits than the
dryads or the wood spirits. They're in classical mythology and
normally when they're talked about, they're not I mean, any
spirits from classical mythology don't tend to be like tinkerbellt
type spirits either, as far as that goes.

Speaker 1 (01:33:29):
And that's the thing you dig into the faith folk,
and particularly in Celtic countries where that was almost religion,
may still be. They're evil creatures. You had to appease them,
and they would trick you, and they would. There's only
like one and there's different clans and different types. There's
one type of them that's kind of nice. I think
those are pixies or something, but I don't I can't

(01:33:50):
articulate all I know about it. But they're not nice things.
But they describe things like in Ireland, the story I
wrote from read from the uh these like seventeen hundreds
maybe early eighteen hundreds about some little men and a
horseless carriage that came down from the sky. Well there's
a Ufo experience. Or there were types of them that

(01:34:11):
were big hairy men that lived in the woods. There's
Bigfoot or Sasquatch or Yowie or whatever. It's kind of
an umbrella that everything else fits under. But you can
talk to a bigfoot enthusiast or a UFO experiencer and
mentioned the fae, they'll snicker at you. They're like, oh,
that doesn't I think it does. I think it all
ties together. Do you have any thoughts on that. I'm

(01:34:32):
sorry to put you on spar here.

Speaker 2 (01:34:34):
No, it's fine. No. I think that it all ties together,
and I think that we'd get more. I mean, we
talked about earlier how you end up with more questions
than answers, but I think that we'd end up with
some more answers if we would all kind of work
together and get over this. Well, you know, this is real,
but that's not kind of situation. It's all weird, it's
all strange. So there's definitely corresponding things about UFOs between ghosts,

(01:34:59):
between is that just overlap one another. That if we
were to take the time and actually communicate with one another,
I think we might have more answers. I'm not saying
that we would have answers to everything, but we would
have more than what we have now. At least that's
my belief.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
I agree, and it would fit it within a broader
scope from which to to do those studies and things from.
But yeah, people will fight you over their individual beliefs.
I've seen that happen at Bigfoot conferences and then when
I was spoke at to UFO conference in San Francisco
a couple of years ago. Now, obviously people almost get
into fist fights over stuff, and you know, like, that's

(01:35:35):
not why we're here to argue. We're here to present
our opinion, not necessarily to defend it, and a lot
of people don't get that. On this show, I've had
a couple of pastors on from sialment so far Messianic
ministries and look at the paranormal and UFOs and things
like that from not only a biblical perspective, but from
the perspective of the Tora being Messianic Jews, they follow

(01:35:59):
both thea and the Bible, and they have some interesting
things to say. Again, you know, people, it's it's controversial
and not everybody's going to agree with it. But I
like to keep an open mind. You know. I don't think,
especially when you have something like this, that there are
no experts in their own, no answers, there is no
right or wrong opinion. But I like to hear other

(01:36:20):
people's opinion. I didn't invite them here, any of the
times that they've been on to beat them up about
it or get them to defend it. I just want
to know what that opinion is.

Speaker 2 (01:36:29):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, And it's it's weird, like, not only
do you see the fighting between the different groups between
like UFOs and ghosts and Bigfoot and things like that,
but we also as humans apparently like to fight about
anything we can fight about, and there's infighting even within
those particular communities. In the Bigfoot community, people take a

(01:36:52):
side as to what they think Bigfoot is and then
that's the only way they don't want to hear any
other arguments to it. And the same thing with dog.
I mean, it gets it gets pretty vicious sometimes and
I just don't understand it. I don't get why why
we're so drawn to wanting to fight and have all
of this drama instead of trying to figure things out.

(01:37:12):
Like you said, we don't have experts in this field,
We don't have the answers like that, so what are
we doing well?

Speaker 1 (01:37:20):
It reminds me of the movie from the seventies, The Warriors.
Did you ever see that about the gangs in New
York City? Cyrus, the leader of all the gangs, was
trying to tell them that. You know, they said, we're
here between us. We're fighting over a few square feet
of sidewalk, our turf. He said, but if we banned together,
we outnumber everybody or the police and everything, and we

(01:37:41):
could run New York City. And then they killed him,
and that was the whole movie was the warriors got
blamed for it, and they were trying to make their
way back to their turf, which was at Cody Island.
A great movie. It's very dated, but that's always stuck
with me. You know, we're here fighting over a few
feet of sidewalk. Band together, we're bigger than everything out there. Yeah, exactly,

(01:38:05):
A nice way I worked the name of the show
and there unintentionally everything out there.

Speaker 2 (01:38:09):
There you go, perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
Unintended plug there for my own show. Heather, What have
you got coming up? You mentioned some of the small
town monster stuff. What else is going on for you?

Speaker 2 (01:38:23):
Oh? Well, I recently had a short story printed in
something called The Dark Village. It's an anthology of different
short stories. Congratulacens, thank you, thank you. That short story
is called The Wind to Go. That one was a
lot of fun to write, a different kind of playing
with perspective a little bit on that. So I've got that,

(01:38:47):
and then I have articles in the Feminine Macabre series
in journals one, three, and five. So I talk about
cursed objects, particularly the rocks from the bell Witch Cave
in the first journal, in the third one I talk
about headless ghosts, and then in the fifth one I

(01:39:09):
talk about goat man, which reminds me. I wanted to
ask you, Steve, if you've heard of any goat man
stories from Tennessee.

Speaker 1 (01:39:18):
Not from Tennessee in particular. But let me look into
my research and I'll get back with you on that.
I did something about the goat man or goat men recently.
Martin Nunley wrote a thing for me and I narrated
it for a project I had called Weird World. But
I've got some other stuff. Let me look and see. Yes,
But it's just everything you mentioned there is something that

(01:39:42):
I've looked into at one time or another. You mentioned
the Belle Witch. Now growing up in East Tennessee, that
was a big deal for me, not as much as
it was for kids in Middle Tennessee. But I told
you the story that you'd never heard about, a Bloody
Mary type game that we played in grade school that
was based on the bell and we're the same. You

(01:40:02):
went into a darkened bathroom and you peered into the mirror,
and instead of saying bloody Mary three times, you said
I don't believe in the bell Witch. Three times. She
would supposed to come out of the mirror and scratch
you on the face. And I was at a kid
party one time, on somebody's birthday party. I was maybe
eight nine years old. The little girl went in the bathroom,
did that. Sure enough, she came running out screaming, had

(01:40:23):
three scratches on her face. Now probably self inflicted, but
it scared to pants off all the little kids at
that party. Anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:40:32):
Well, sure, yeah, you definitely don't want to mess with
the bell Witch, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:40:37):
And I also told you the story about how the
library book at the Big Library in Knoxville was perpetually
checked out you couldn't find I can't remember the name
of the book. It was one of the pre eminent
bell Witch books. And the story that was told when
it finally did come back after a couple of years,
it was just said that then it was in the collections.

(01:41:00):
You could only look at it there at the library,
probably because it was a rare book. But the story
that was told on the playground was that when they
finally found it, the guy that had checked it out
for a couple of years was found dead in his
bed and that was what he was reading, and he
had been there for some time. Nothing but a skeleton left.
But they returned the book to the library, and that's
why nobody could check it out because it was cursed.

Speaker 2 (01:41:23):
That's quite a story.

Speaker 1 (01:41:25):
For interesting playground fodder. That would be a book right there.
The strange things on the playground and people recount their stuff.
They heard his kids. I've done stuff about urban legends
and stories, you know, from a friend of a friend,
the gospel truth. Oh no, that really happened. It happened
to our neighbors, cousins, uncle's nephew.

Speaker 2 (01:41:48):
But right, but.

Speaker 1 (01:41:52):
Nothing shattered my world. As John or Jan Harold Brunvan,
he's a think he's a professor of folklore and mythology,
and somewhere in Utah. He put out a book in
the seventies called The Vashing Hitchhiker was the fast on
he did the first one. He did a series of books,
and a lot of those stories I'd heard those as
gospel truth growing up. No, No, that happened to my cousin. No,

(01:42:13):
that one happened to a friend of a lady that
does my mom's hair. These stories happened, but they didn't.
And you know, they served as cautionary tales and kept
me out of some trouble. Probably you know, kept me
out of the lake because of the water moccasins, or
kept me from going to the bathroom at all Mart
because some kid was mutilated and there as part of

(01:42:34):
a gang initiation, a runner to Walmart. We had a
local store there in Knoxville, I think it was local
called all Mart A L M A R T. And
the story was that the kid was around his eighth birthday.
He had gone to the want to go to the
bathroom by himself, like, Mom, I'm too big to go
to the lady's room with you. I'll go by myself.
So she stands there and waits on him. He goes

(01:42:55):
to the bathroom, he's gone, gone, gone, gone, never comes out.
Instead of going in looking for him, next person, the
next mail that starts and she said, sir, would you
tell me if there's a little boy in there, and
describes it guy goes in, he comes running back out.
He said, lady, you better get in there with him.
I'm going to go up front and ask him to
call an ambulance. And as part of a gang initiation,

(01:43:16):
and she had mentioned earlier in the story that she
saw three dirty looking boys come out of there, three
trashy looking boys come out. Well, they've been part of
a gang. And as part of initiation, they castrated this
little boy, Oh my godness, through his member in the
parking lot where it was run over by a car
and couldn't be saved. He had to have a sexual

(01:43:38):
reassignment surgery and change schools. But wow, as a kid
and believed every single word of it. I was just
there with by parents. One time I had to go
to the bathroom. I couldn't even find my mom and dad.
So instead of raving this was the almart on Clinton Highway,
instead of going in there by myself, I went outside
around the building, around in the back in the dark

(01:43:59):
and eat on the wall. It was a much more
danger back there. But yeah, that was so ingrained in
my head that I'm not going to go to the
bathroom in there. I know what happens, and there I'll
go outside be by the dumpster. But again that story
was in there that I think the ever Penis was
the name of it. But again I heard that as

(01:44:21):
gospel truth and believed it. And the one about the
Avon lady that wasn't an Avon lady, that was a
man in a dress, and in his Avon sample bag
he had a hatchet and a hank of rope and
some handcuffs, you know, and all that, Oh my goodness.
And the beauty shop, the beauty parlor, and back in
by day in the late sixties early seventies, a lot

(01:44:41):
of women, particularly in our community in East Tennessee, they
would have those shops in their basement. Not only did
they make a few extra bucks doing hair, but they
got all the neighborhood gossip. I heard similar stories from both.
My mom got her hair done two different ladies because
they were both friends her friends, so she alternated. But
heard those stories at both beauty shops. When I would

(01:45:04):
tell you along and sitting with the dryer chairs, well,
my mom was getting a permanent But again I grow up.
And some of the others are the one about the
kid water skiing and running into a nest of water,
moccasins and dying before they could get them out of
the water. My aunt from Alabama told that that it
happened to a friend that her or kid that her
son went to school with in Scottsboro, Alabama. Never happened,

(01:45:26):
but again, there was just such a part of childhood
and things.

Speaker 2 (01:45:32):
Yeah, that's what you were talking about, the book always
being checked out or reminds me of the book that
was always checked out when I was in elementary school
with scary stories to tell in the dark, and that
that one had very similar things. It had well all
kinds of scary stories, so to speak, but mostly urban legends.
And so there were stories of like the spot, you know,

(01:45:54):
where somebody had what looked like a pimple on their face,
but it was actually spider eggs had been nested on
their face and then it would just explode, and there
spiders everywhere.

Speaker 1 (01:46:05):
Urban legend too, and yep, the deal that I heard
from the sixties was it was a boufont hair. The
girl had her hair piled up and rather than take
it down, she just kept lacquering it with hairspray until
it was just a solid, massive hair and spiders got
in there and laid eggs and hatched out and they
were like eating into her brain or something. I don't know.

(01:46:25):
It was frightening, but yeah, that's another one of those.
Oh it had happened, but it didn't, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:46:31):
Yeah, but learning tools, trying to scare the kids.

Speaker 1 (01:46:35):
Yeah, and I'm just getting into the stories told in
the dark. My wife's from that era. She was born
in eighty five, and I've come to appreciate those in
the Goosebumps series. I never really paid much attention to those,
but she was big into that. So we've got a
collection of R. L. Steinbooks going here. And I loved
the Scholastic stuff when I was a kid, Missus Coverlets,

(01:46:59):
Magicians and what was the other one that I absolutely
adored The Mad Scientists Club by Burton Brindley. And it's
just those books just spurred me on. And there was
a lot of spooky stuff back then too, and Frank
Edwards books Strange World, Stranger than science, Stranger than fiction.

(01:47:22):
I read a lot of that was introduction to a
lot of stuff within the paranormal realm and supernatural for me,
and everything in there wasn't supernatural, so it was just strange.
But had away the David Lang disappearance with the guy
I was walking across the field and disappeared in full
view of his wife and children and the two guys
and a bugy coming up the road. That was the

(01:47:44):
first place I ever heard that was in a Frank
Edwards book. So books of the Key, yeah, were always
an escape for me. I didn't have any friends, but
I had a lot of books.

Speaker 2 (01:47:54):
Yeah. We used to have this, We used to have
this program called riff Reading is Fundamentals. Yeah, And that's
where I got introduced to a series called The Bailey
school Kids. And the first the first book that I
picked up from that series happened to be the first
book from the series, luckily, but it was called Vampires

(01:48:15):
Don't Wear Polka Dots. And it follows these kids that
every time there's like a new teacher, a new janitor something,
they have this theory that they're a vampire. Another one's
like ghostone eat potato chips or whatever.

Speaker 1 (01:48:30):
And she's a fan of those. I need to read those.

Speaker 2 (01:48:34):
They are so good. I have like the first twenty
sum still from whenever I was a child. I've got
them on the shelf over here. But that also brought
me into that world because there was a big foot one,
there was a werewolf one, there was a vampire one,
there was a goblin. I think there was even like well,
I know there was a leprechaun one. But yeah, they

(01:48:54):
they covered all kinds of things like that, and so
I read more of those than I did the Goosebump series.
I did read Goosebumps, but I was into the Bailey
school kids a little bit more.

Speaker 1 (01:49:04):
And this was another touchstone for her. Are you Afraid
of the Dark? Did you watch those?

Speaker 2 (01:49:11):
Yes? Yes I did.

Speaker 1 (01:49:14):
And in fact, that's one of the names she uses
on YouTube is Midnight Society, and that's that's how I
first noticed her when she was coming and listening to me.
That name stood out to me in the chat and
it just kind of went from there. But we watched
those and I'm a big fan. I watch them as
an adult. I was in college, but I love those shows.

(01:49:38):
And DJ McHale, who wrote a lot of those and
a lot of them under a pen name because he
didn't want his name all over everything. He's a friend
of mine. I'm going to have him on the show sometimes.
He influenced the whole generation the kids there, and for
a kids show, and you'll see if you agree here
that was some of the scariest stuff ever on television. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:49:58):
Yeah, they did a good job with that, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:50:03):
And I'd like to talk to ri al Stein too.
I've got some juvenile fiction of that turn in the works,
and my wife's working on a book too, that in
that same vein, and it's gonna be a lot of fun.
And I love the idea of writing for kids, but
I just I don't know. I'll turned sixty last year.
I don't know if I'm so far out of touch

(01:50:25):
that I couldn't write for this generation of kids. But
I'd like to give it a try.

Speaker 2 (01:50:30):
Right, I think you should do it. I support this wholeheartedly.

Speaker 1 (01:50:34):
Okay, well, thank you. But now you mentioned the Weird
Writer Blog. There was some of your articles over there
that I wanted you to do for thirteen Past Midnight,
and you did, thankfully. Do you still write for that?
Does Heather still do that? I've been out of the
loop on a lot of this peripheral stuff for a while.
I'm not sure what's going on.

Speaker 2 (01:50:54):
No, I haven't written for Shannon in a while.

Speaker 1 (01:50:57):
Did I say, Heather? I meant Shannon.

Speaker 2 (01:50:59):
Yeah, yeah, it's okay. She She basically got to a
point where she was like, listen, you need to start
writing for yourself and get get more things out there.
Quit quit writing for me.

Speaker 1 (01:51:13):
Uh good. One that particularly stands out is Witches and
silver Bullets.

Speaker 2 (01:51:20):
Yes, you remember that one.

Speaker 1 (01:51:23):
And I think you narrated that one as well, and
that I you know, always heard about the silver bullet
as you know, the way to fend off the wolf man,
but I'd never heard of it being used against witches.
So that was educational for me.

Speaker 2 (01:51:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's I had found a lot of that
in uh Patrick Gainor's Witches, Ghosts and Signs. There are
stories in there about the silver bullet. And even in
the Bell Witch story there was a guy who claimed
to be a witch hunter came in with a silver
bullet waving it around, saying that he could handle the witch,
and of course she put him to shame and had

(01:51:59):
him running out crying by the end of it. But yeah,
it is something like you said, most people think about
it's keeping the werewolves away, but witches are known to
be that's one of their weaknesses. Of silver bullets.

Speaker 1 (01:52:13):
Now, my granny used garlic and even though she was
a self proclaimed witch, there were other witches that she
didn't want anything to do with. And the old farmhouse
she lived in, old Victorian farmhouse had the old keyholes
in the doors, and she would put a cloak of
garlic in there to keep witches from coming through the keyhole.
Have you ever heard anything like that?

Speaker 2 (01:52:33):
Yeah, well, not putting garlic in there, but definitely heard
about them coming through the keyhole and shape shifting into
like black cats and things like that to get into They.

Speaker 1 (01:52:41):
Could come down the fireplace too. And what was the
other thing she used to do now, of course, when
anybody died, they hung cloth over the mirror, but that
was to keep the spirit from getting trapped in the house.
Their porches, the feeling of the porch, the roof of
the porch, the underneath of it, anyway, was always painted
haint and blue. Have you ever heard of this story
behind that? Yes, that a spirit coming up to enter

(01:53:04):
the house up to no good would look up and
see that and think it was the sky and fly
up through the porch roof and be gone. Must have worked,
because I don't think our house was hatted. But I
really enjoy a lot of the folklore and stuff, particularly
from the Southern Appleatches. I mean, that's where I grew up,

(01:53:25):
but sounds like there's parts of that in the Appleatches
that are close to you there too than the northern part.

Speaker 2 (01:53:32):
Oh yeah, yeah, It's definitely been interesting to look at
some of the overlap between the Northern and the Southern
Appalaches and our stories. It's just that it seems like
there was a higher degree of storytelling in general in
the Southern Appleaches, if that makes sense, and that seems
to be written down more, at least officially written down

(01:53:54):
more in books than there were in the Northern Appalachians.
And I find that kind of sad, and.

Speaker 1 (01:54:00):
I attribute to that to people like, uh, you may
have never heard of them. But there was a guy
in Knoxville that wrote in the paper named Bert Vincent
and he had to call Umn on Sundays. I think
it was like just walking about or something like that.
He had two volumes out of there was a little
bit of everything in there, but there was a lot
of hate and booger and witch tales from the Smokies
in that area. And had both those books growing up,

(01:54:23):
had them around the house. An autograph copy of one
of them that my mom had picked up somewhere. But
it was just a part of that, the oral tradition
and the written tradition. You had people like him look
for him on Amazon. Hey by this interesting Burt Vincent
columns for the Knoxville News Sentinel and another person that

(01:54:44):
kind of carried that on wash And I can't remember
the guy's name now, Sam Sam Somebody had Full of
Thumbs and two left Feet is the name of his book,
But yeah, wrote I call him later in the kind
of the same and bird had picked it up, and
I think Carson Burg or somebody like that. But that

(01:55:04):
opened a lot of tales. Of course, the Foxfire books.
I think it's Foxfire Volume two that has the hains
and witches and stuff in it.

Speaker 2 (01:55:11):
That was also on my shelf right now, I'm looking
right back.

Speaker 1 (01:55:14):
I love that one. And of course Charles own Price
was from the South and he wrote a lot about
little towns, in particular Haunted Jonesborough, Haunted Knoxville, Haunted Nashville,
and his Canada works. I think he's passed on now,
but anybody that's interested in Southern hauntings things are his books. Well.

(01:55:35):
Srry Well then, of course was it thirteen Alabama Ghosts
and Jeffrey. I can't remember the lady's name, but she
did Alabama, Georgia, I think Tennessee too, and Jeffrey was
her resident ghost. But she wrote a lot of those
tales out and then of course in historic Jonesboro, Tennessee.
You have to say that historic part. They're proud of that.

(01:55:57):
They have the International Storytelling Convention October. I've been there
as in the audience, but I've never been there as
a participant. But that is some fun to hear those
stories come to life from good storytellers.

Speaker 2 (01:56:12):
I bet that sounds like a great place to go.

Speaker 1 (01:56:16):
Now we talked about the bell Witch Cave. We're almost
out of time here, but have you ever visited the
Belwitch Cave for the grounds there?

Speaker 2 (01:56:24):
Yes, yes, I've been down to Adams, Tennessee a couple
of times. The first time that I went down, I
actually wasn't able to go to the cave because there
had been torrential downpours in the cave flood.

Speaker 1 (01:56:33):
Red River floods like you wouldn't believe right there. But yeah, Christo,
the owner or her husband own that. She's a friend
of mine and the first time that I went, there
was nobody there who got like a personal tour. She's
got photographs coming back then. This was in the early nineties.
She had a couple of photo albums full of pictures

(01:56:55):
that she had taken, a full of pictures that people
had sent back of anominal of stuff down there. I
had my first digital camera and no Kodak had like
half a megapixel I think. But I got some weird
pictures there too. But if anybody has an interest in
that at all, it's worth checking out. Certainly.

Speaker 2 (01:57:13):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:57:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:57:14):
When I was there and actually got to go to
the cave, it was a similar situation. I had to
wait for more people to show up for them to
do a tour. So I sat with Chris and talked
with her for probably an hour or two hours before
enough people showed up and they're like, Okay, now we
can go into the cave.

Speaker 1 (01:57:30):
Yeah. I think she had a couple of little books
that she sold. I bought those, and then it's before
she had the gift shop, and we sat out there.
There was like a gazebo or a picnic table or
something up there, and she showed me all these pictures
and then talked about all the stuff that people have
taken that's come back.

Speaker 2 (01:57:46):
Yeah, yep, exactly. That's where you get into the cursed objects,
the rocks and things. And even now now, what she
does is she'll get porcelain dolls and paint them up
to look like zombies or something grotesque and sell them.
And they're getting sent back now as well.

Speaker 1 (01:58:03):
That way, should just sell them again.

Speaker 2 (01:58:05):
Yeah, that's exactly what she does.

Speaker 1 (01:58:07):
A lot of times when they're not there and they
locked the gate, she said come back, and there would
be a rock or something with a note tied to it.
So I took this out of the cave. I'm sorry,
please put it back. It was near this place or
that place, and I get it. There's a lot of
places like that, petrified forest, other caves, Mammoth Cave. There's
places where you just don't take stuff because you might
take home more than you bargained with. The troll bridge

(01:58:28):
outside of Portland, Oregon, I've heard weird stories about people
that took troll dolls from there. You're supposed to leave them,
not take them. But anyway, we're almost out of time
for this episode. Thank you for joining us here on
everything out there. Any parting words for the audience.

Speaker 2 (01:58:44):
Well, thanks for having me. I've loved being here. Parting words, man,
just stay weird, stay.

Speaker 1 (01:58:52):
Weird, better weird than plastic. I love it all right.
And I'll leave links to the show notes where you
can find small Town Monsters. And again, Heather, thank you
for joining us. Go ahead and sign off here once again,
you've been listening to everything out there on the Clyde
Lewis Ground zero Radio Network. I'm Steve Stockton. I'll see
you a little further on down the trail. Tell your animals,

(01:59:13):
I said, Hi. Good night everybody,

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