June 9, 2025 • 53 mins
This episode, "Revelation Leads to Conversion," explores the second crucial principle for an amazing and spiritual mission experience. Your sole purpose as a missionary is to help others come unto Christ.
In this deep dive, you'll learn:
•
What is Conversion? It's more than just a testimony; it's a "mighty change of heart," a change in our very nature, becoming more like the Savior. It's about coming to Christ and living in a covenant with Him.
•
The Only Way to Come to Christ: Scripturally, the only way to conversion is through faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Faith is the essential first step; "faith without repentance is absolutely worthless".
•
The Power of Revelation: Revelation is receiving a confirmation of the truthfulness of the gospel from God. It's not just intellectual understanding, but a spiritual "knowing" that leads to action. It's the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"—more powerful than what you can see or hear.
•
Revelation Leads to Conversion: Revelation is the only way to begin growing the faith that ultimately leads to repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost.
•
How to Invite Revelation: Missionaries can help others receive revelation by inviting them to feast upon the words of Christ (especially the Book of Mormon), pray sincerely, and get to church. These actions invite the Spirit, which in turn grows faith.
•
Identifying the Holy Ghost: Learn how to help others recognize and identify the Holy Ghost's influence, whether it's a "peace," "joy," "still small voice," or simply when "everything just clicked" and "made sense".
•
Faith and Revelation are Intertwined: Your faith grows as you receive revelation, and you receive revelation according to your faith and action. You must actively cultivate faith; it doesn't grow passively.
•
Practical Missionary Advice: Study Preach My Gospel Chapter 11 on extending and helping people keep commitments. Even singing hymns can invite the Spirit.
This episode challenges listeners, especially youth preparing for missions, to seek their own revelation through faithful action and deep study, emphasizing that this process is essential for personal conversion and effective missionary work.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Yeah, because what becomes before baptism is
repentance.
In order for them to repent,they have to have faith.
And in order to have faith, theyhave to receive revelation
through the Holy Ghost.
And the way that you help themdo that is you invite them to
feast upon the words of Christ,to pray and pray and pray and
ask for revelation and to get tochurch.
But there's somethingsubstantive in my soul.
(00:22):
There's something really there.
Something's happening.
Like something is present.
Something is powerful.
So I love that it says now faithis the substance.
Evidence of things not seen.
It's more evidence than if I sawit.
(00:44):
All right.
Welcome back.
Mission Stories Podcast.
Hey, Lauren.
Good evening.
Good evening.
So exciting whenever we get tosit down and talk about our
missions and talk about theSavior.
It's just great.
It's great, right?
Great time.
Like, even if no one everlistens to our podcast anymore,
(01:05):
the joy to even just gettogether and talk about this
stuff with anybody is so fun.
Like-minded...
equally as enthusiastic peopleabout the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
And it's just, it just feelsgood.
It's just good.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Yeah.
So good.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
You, um, excited today.
We're going to talk about thesecond class that I teach.
This is principle number two inthe series for the mission prep
stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
I love this one.
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
This one's a good one.
This one's a good one.
So this one listeners, we call,this is principle number two,
again, for context, just forcontext.
UNKNOWN (01:41):
Um,
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
My mission was incredible.
It was so special and sospiritual.
And I always ask coming home,why is it that some people
didn't get the same experiencethat I had?
I just felt like that's sounfair.
And over the years I'verealized, oh, okay, well,
there's some things that I didor my companions did that led to
a spiritual and happy experienceand if everyone would do those
(02:07):
things i think that everyonewill have a better chance at a
really amazing missionexperience and so i kind of
compiled these seven eight ninethings and today we're going to
talk about one that i call
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
revelation leads to conversion
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
revelation leads to conversion and i always try and
start with i love being in aclassroom with all these young
kids these teenagers and I lovestarting with going, because
when I was that age, I couldn'tanswer this, but you just start
with this question.
Like, okay, when you all becomea missionary, what is your one
point?
There's one goal, one purpose,one simple thing.
(02:44):
And it's really hard to get theanswer out of that, even though
the answer is really simple andquite direct.
Lauren, what's your one purposeas a missionary?
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
To help others come unto Christ.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
That's it.
That's your one thing we'redoing is leading souls
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
to Christ.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
To Christ, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
And these are all good.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause it's semantics, right?
There's all kinds of differentwords we use in the church,
conversion or testimony orscriptures talk about coming to
Christ or turning to Christ.
It's all kind of talking aboutthe same thing.
But today we're going to talkabout conversion and we're going
to talk about what it is.
(03:22):
specifically what it is, becauseonce we define that, then we
really can drill down andunderstand why this principle,
which is called revelation leadsto conversion.
And in fact, I'll go deeper.
Revelation is the only way tolead to conversion.
Why this is such a powerful,powerful and important principle
that if you don't learn on yourmission, you, how can you learn,
how can you lead people toChrist?
(03:45):
If you don't know how to, what,how conversion happens.
And so this principle is allabout this practical knowledge
of how do you lead people toChrist.
And I'm going to say, Revelationnot only leads people to Christ,
but it's the only way to leadpeople to Christ.
Okay, so let's start off withthis.
Let's just get your opinion.
What do you think that means,Revelation leads to conversion?
(04:07):
What in your minds, your words,what do you think that means?
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Well, I feel like you have to break down what each
of those words mean, right?
Revelation and conversion arekind of two big words that a lot
of people don't fullyunderstand.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Okay, let me ask you.
So let's focus on conversion.
What is conversion?
Is it testimony?
So if you have a testimony, doesthat mean you're converted?
SPEAKER_01 (04:25):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
Is conversion a change of heart?
Is conversion I'm strong andactive in the church?
Is conversion I'm a missionary?
You don't think conversion andtestimony are the same
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
thing?
No.
Okay.
Conversion...
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
But when people get up and say...
Every week, I'd like to bury, ormonth, I'd like to bury my
testimony.
And I know this church is true,and I love my mom and dad.
Like, we get so stuck on a lotof words, like testimony or
conversion, that they almostlose their meaning.
So I'm glad we're starting todefine it.
Sorry, I interrupted you.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Go ahead.
Oh, it's okay.
Conversion, I like to think of,is a change in our nature rather
than just a change in ourbehavior.
I feel like sometimes when wehave a testimony, it can
influence a change in ourbehavior.
But when we're converted, itchanges our very nature.
And so when the scriptures talkabout Alma, when he's going
through his repentance process,he talks about, I had a mighty
(05:18):
change of heart.
And they talk about how the onlyway to come unto Christ, it
talks about it all throughoutthe Book of Mormon, The only way
to come unto Christ is to bereborn and have a mighty change
of heart.
That's conversion.
SPEAKER_00 (05:32):
So what does that have to do with Christ?
Well, we'll get into that.
We'll get into that.
Okay, so your idea of conversionis, obviously, again, your
purpose as a missionary is tolead souls to Christ.
You yourself need to come toChrist.
And in that process, or when wecome to Christ, conversion
happens.
And you're defining conversionas, in the Nephi sense, a mighty
(05:52):
change of heart.
I'll never forget, I don'tremember how long I'd been on
the mission, but we're out inthe street contacting in
Donetsk, Ukraine, and I came tothis man and I just looked at
him and I'm just like, I don'tknow why.
I just love that man.
I don't know why.
I just have a compassion and aheart and a love.
(06:13):
Can I talk to you, please?
And he looked at me and got so,just hatred in his eyes.
And he spit on me.
I'd never been spit on before.
And typically in that situation,you get angry.
Yeah, you get mad.
You get feelings of hurt.
You get feelings of, but Ididn't.
(06:36):
I loved him so much more withsuch compassion.
And all I wanted was hishappiness.
And it's like, there wasn'tanything a guy could do to me.
And I kind of started thinking,oh, maybe that's the change of
heart.
Right?
We go our whole lives as littlebabies.
And all we care about is whatour parents are doing and
(06:57):
thinking and saying.
And then you realize that, oh,there's this whole world outside
of my parents, this socialworld, other people that exist.
And now all you care about iswhat your peers think.
And in this process, it's a veryselfish kind of self-centered
process, right?
It's just all about me and whatam I experiencing and who am I
to them?
And naturally, we all kind ofthink of ourselves.
(07:18):
So when you say mighty change ofheart, I understand that as I go
from a selfish, fallen person tosomeone who thinks about myself
constantly to having a heartthat is more towards Heavenly
Father, Jesus Christ, but othersspecifically.
And in that moment when I talkedto that man, I just loved him so
(07:41):
much.
I think I was like, maybe thisis what the result of the mighty
change of heart is.
What do you think it is?
You said conversion is a mightychange of heart.
What is it?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Well, I agree with everything that you said.
I also think a change of hearthas to do with a willingness to
turn your will to HeavenlyFathers.
I love this principle, the factthat it's revelation leads to
conversion because when youreceive revelation, you're
learning more and more, right?
Yeah.
(08:11):
I think about it like I'mlearning more about my Savior.
I'm learning more about JesusChrist, who he was, what he does
for me, what he did for others,what he continues to do for us,
how he acted towards others, howhe reacted to situations.
And you think about how you canbecome more like that.
So that change of heart isbecoming, I think, more like our
(08:32):
Savior.
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Okay, so I totally agree.
And I think that's one half ofconversion.
It is our heart changing, usbecoming more like our Savior.
I think that's one half of it.
I think the other half is, Ialways like the visual of the
song and the scriptures, thewise man built his house upon
(08:52):
the rocks.
I love it so much becausescriptures refer to this
foundation that if we're on topof, it doesn't matter how hard
the wind blows.
It doesn't matter how cold it isor how big the waves are.
Our house is built firmly onthat foundation.
it will never fail.
Whereas the man who built hishouse on the sand, all of it
will crumble because there's nofoundation, right?
(09:15):
So I like to draw this pictureon the board when I'm doing this
class of a foundation next to asandy ground and the house on
that foundation.
And I go, this here is coming toChrist or slash this here is
conversion.
So I think one half ofconversion is what you said.
It is a mighty change of heart.
It's us becoming like thesavior.
(09:35):
I think the other half is,entails exactly what gospel
means, good news, which is thatI'm not on my own anymore when I
come to Christ.
God doesn't see me in hisjustice and my sins.
He sees me with the Savior.
So the second part is coming tothe Savior and living in a
(09:56):
covenant with him.
This part is even moreimportant.
So the question is this, Lauren,how specifically, again, if our
one goal is to bring souls toChrist, and that is conversion.
What is the way to come toChrist?
And scripturally, it is clearerthan anything that there is only
one way to come to Christ.
(10:18):
Christ even says, it's mydoctrine.
And if you talk of any otherdoctrine, more or less than
this, it cometh of evil.
Like this is my doctrine.
I will preach this doctrine.
He repeats it more thananything.
So I think the second part ofconversion or coming to Christ,
we have to understand how, whatexactly is it?
And I'm not talking aboutrevelation because I'm saying
(10:39):
that revelation leads to the howto come to Christ.
Revelation is not coming toChrist.
Revelation is what starts theprocess of coming to Christ.
So what would you say?
I mean, am I speaking toocryptically?
And is it like, like, what doyou think is the way, the one
and only way to come to Christ?
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Through faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement,
repentance, baptism, andreceiving the gift of the Holy
Ghost.
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
By the end of this class that I teach, um, I make
the class say that 35 timesbecause I've drawn it up on this
board with this foundation inthis house and a person standing
on that foundation.
And I say, how does one come toChrist?
And typically in the church,we'll be like, well, you got to
go to church.
Well, you got to read yourscriptures.
We got to believe you got to doall these answers like these
(11:26):
primary answers.
We won't read the scriptures,but truly what you said is the
one and only way to come toChrist.
It has to start with faith.
Faith is the first principle ofour existence.
It's the first principle of thegospel.
And faith leads to repentance.
We won't repent unless we havefaith in Christ.
We won't.
(11:47):
And faith without repentance istotal bunk.
SPEAKER_01 (11:53):
Bunk?
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
It is.
You tell me, honestly, of whatvalue is faith without
repentance?
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Nobody repents if they don't have faith.
SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
That's right.
And the scriptures don't say tocome to Christ and be converted,
you just need to be faithful.
You just need to have faith.
No, faith is one fourth of therequirement to be converted and
come to Christ.
The second principle isrepentance.
So faith without repentance isabsolutely worthless.
And once you've, through faith,fallen on your knees in humility
(12:23):
and repented, you now can go tothe third step, which is enter
into a covenant with God throughthe ordinance of baptism.
That's what baptism is.
It's entering into that covenantand saying, okay, I promise that
I will continue to have faithand repent my whole life.
And in exchange, Christ says,then I save you.
I will suffer for your sins,right?
And then after that, we get thisgreat, great, powerful gift of
(12:48):
the Holy Ghost.
And we'll go into more detail inanother episode about what that
is.
But okay, so...
Having a mighty change of heartis the process of faith,
repentance, baptism, and get theHoly Ghost.
Conversion is coming to Christthrough faith, repentance,
baptism, and the Holy Ghost.
Have we drilled it in enough?
SPEAKER_01 (13:03):
I think
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
so.
Or should we say it 30 moretimes this episode?
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Y'all will hear it.
Y'all will hear it.
I trust.
SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
Okay, so if we've clearly defined what conversion
is, coming to Christ throughfaith, repentance, baptism, and
get the Holy Ghost, then whatthe heck is revelation?
So before we can tie those twotogether, let's define what
revelation is.
What do you think?
What do you think is revelation?
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
I think of kind of breaking it apart as to
revelation, but also havingrevelatory experiences.
For example, Joseph Smith, whenhe was praying and he was
seeking without Everything thathe had, the truth of the gospel
(13:48):
of what he was learning, he wasable to receive a confirmation
from that gift of the HolyGhost.
So when we're converted to theLord and we have the gift of the
Holy Ghost with us, it's so mucheasier because it's there to
confirm these truths to us thatwe're learning.
And as a missionary, it's kindof embarrassing to admit this,
but honestly, I don't reallycare.
(14:10):
When I went out to the field, Ihad no idea that anything about
the covenant of baptism.
I literally was a baptizedmember of the church and I had
no idea.
That's pretty normal.
The promises that I made, like Ihad no idea that if I did this,
I would receive this.
And these were the specificpromises.
This is what I had to do.
This was what Heavenly Fatherand Christ would do for me.
I
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
had no idea.
But the reason you didn't knowit is because you hadn't up
until that point feasted uponthe words of Christ.
And guess what teaches you whatthe details of the covenant are?
The words of Christ, Scripture,right?
So when you dove into Scripture,you started to learn these
things.
Exactly.
There's nothing magical about amission that teaches us about
faith or repentance or covenantsor revelation.
You just started reading thewords of Christ and started
teaching.
Okay, don't be embarrassed.
(14:50):
We are all at that point.
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
I'm actually not that embarrassed.
It's not that deep.
But anyway, so I'm sitting athis own conference.
This elder gets up and he'stalking and he just invites
everyone.
He says, I studied the doctrineof baptism and it changed my
mission.
It changed the way I domissionary work.
I invite you all to do it.
I don't know how many people didit, but I did.
(15:11):
Nice.
And I remember he, he left acouple of transfers before I
did, but at his last zoneconference, I went up to him.
I was like, you have no idea,but your invitation like changed
my life.
And you can see his, like someof my companions that were like
watching this interaction andthey were like, dude, he totally
just like lit up.
Like anyways, that's not thepoint.
(15:32):
The point is that I studied thedoctrine of baptism and because
I knew that what these promiseswere that we're making when
we're baptized, I recognize,okay, these things have happened
in my life, but also I learnedit and I know that Christ is
true to his promises.
And so then I could testify ofit more powerfully, which then
(15:53):
in turn helped more people getbaptized that I taught.
SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
Okay, I love that.
And this is good because westarted with defining what
revelation is.
We kind of veered off and wentback to conversion.
But I'm glad because you'refocusing on faith, repentance,
baptism.
I love that because what's moreimportant to you listeners than
to learn again?
If the point is you're listeningto this podcast because you're
like, I want to be prepared formy mission, then the main thing
(16:19):
we can teach you is the point ofyour mission is to lead souls to
Christ.
Oh, well, then how do I do that?
Okay, great.
Let's talk about how to do thatand convert people.
faith, repentance, baptism, andget the Holy Ghost.
So the more we talk about allthose four principles, I could
talk about it and nothing elsethe rest of my life, and I would
be satisfied and happy, and Iwould keep learning, and that's
all that matters.
It really is.
But back to the originalquestion.
(16:41):
Define for me what you believeRevelation is.
Because my statement here, theprinciple is this.
Now that we know what conversionis, my statement is that No one
will come to conversion, willcome to Christ through the
conversion of those four thingswithout beginning with
revelation.
And so I really like in my classto go, let's define revelation.
(17:01):
You have to understand whatrevelation is.
What do you think?
Define it.
What do you think?
What do you think?
I pointed at you.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
I think revelation is receiving a confirmation of
the truthfulness of the gospel.
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
So it's like knowledge.
It's knowing.
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (17:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
How does that relate to either faith, repentance,
baptism, or the gift of the HolyGhost, in your opinion?
Knowing, the knowledge thatcomes through a confirmation
through the Holy Ghost.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
I think it leads people to action.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
For
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
example...
I, before the mission, had noidea how to, I didn't really
understand the atonement.
I didn't know how to apply itinto my life.
But I made it a goal to startstudying it because I wanted to
understand it.
Because I knew that, you know,Christ died for me.
I knew
SPEAKER_00 (17:55):
it.
Yeah, you heard the words yourwhole life.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
but I didn't know how it applied to me, right?
And so I took this time to studyit.
And I will never stop talkingabout Stephen Robinson's book,
Believe in Christ, because it'sso good.
It's the best.
He shares the parable of thebicycle.
And he talks about at the end ofexplaining this parable, when
you understand the completehopelessness that we have as
(18:22):
humans, you accept the divinityof the atonement of Jesus Christ
and that we need it.
And so I decided to try toaccept that harsh reality.
Like, okay, well, I'm not makingit back on my own.
Like, I am not perfect.
And then I...
Nice.
Yeah.
(19:02):
It was a moment like that whereI put in the work to understand
what it was, how it applied tomy life.
And then afterwards, I justalways kept a prayer in my
heart.
Like, I want to know this istrue.
I want to apply it to my life.
I want to see the blessings comeout of it.
And I finally had thatexperience or that moment where
I recognized what it was.
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Before we move on from that, give me a little,
like, break it.
Get a little bit abstract andspiritual here.
You said you heard a voice inyour head.
But what was the true, how didyou identify this as revelation
in the Holy Ghost?
Were you experiencing somethingin your heart, in your soul, in
your spirit, or was it all justaudible in your head?
(19:41):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (19:43):
It's, I'd be lying if I said, oh, I felt this
burning in my bosom.
Like, that's personally not howI feel the Spirit.
But everything just clickedinstantly.
Like everything just likeclicked and it all just made
sense.
That's how I recognize that Ifeel the spirit.
Everything just like makes senseto me.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Is it just making sense in your head?
Or are there accompanying whatI'll call substances and
evidences that are not seen?
In other words, we always usethe word feel.
We feel the spirit.
I don't like the word feelbecause feel suggests emotion.
(20:23):
And even though our bodies andminds can express emotion after
we experience the Holy Ghost,the Holy Ghost isn't emotion.
The Holy Ghost is a spirit, likeJoseph Smith said, when God the
Father speaks to us through theHoly Ghost, it's as if his
spirit in the absence of hisbody is speaking directly to
your spirit in the absence ofyour body.
(20:45):
And that experience through theHoly Ghost or through spirits,
the scriptures talk about aslove and peace and joy.
Now, those are inadequate wordsbecause those are kind of
emotional words.
It's not emotion.
It is a power or a peace or astill small voice.
And I love that all throughScripture, they're all
(21:06):
inadequate words, but they'redoing their best to try and
express something that can't beexpressed in mortal terms,
right?
The burning of the bosom, thestill small voice, right?
Peace, joy, love, longsuffering.
All these things are trying toexpress what I experienced or
felt.
(21:27):
So was any of that present whenyou had this experience?
SPEAKER_01 (21:30):
Absolutely.
And there were a ton ofexperiences like that.
And it's like you said, like Ican't really explain what that
feels like because there arejust no words, but everything
just made sense.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
It's powerful too, right?
When it's that much wisdom,clarity, and just light, right?
It's light from God.
SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
It is light.
And then, you know, afterwards,I'd have experiences where I saw
what I learned come into playwith any time that I received
revelation.
And then it was just aconfirmation of, okay, yeah,
that was light.
That was true.
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
Okay, so this is fascinating.
So, again, we defined whatconversion is.
I'm saying that revelation leadsto conversion, so now we're
trying to define revelation.
You're saying that it is fromGod...
a confirmation of truth orknowledge or something.
So let's do this.
In order to tie Revelation intoconversion, we have to, again,
(22:27):
understand how conversionstarts.
Again, what's principle numberone?
What's step number one inconversion?
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
Are you asking me?
SPEAKER_00 (22:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:35):
Oh, sorry, faith.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Faith, right?
So what I'm going to suggest isRevelation and faith are tied
together in such a necessary waythat it's the only way to start
to grow that faith, which willlead to repentance and then the
covenants.
Can you go to Hebrews 11 one?
Or I can read it.
I got it here.
I got it
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
here.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:54):
Okay.
So to me, if we can understandthis first principle of the
gospel, what faith is, then wewill have crystal clear
understanding of what revelationis and why revelation is
necessary to start conversion.
Or in other words, to havefaith.
Okay, so with that in mind, letme read this.
And this is really abstract.
And when I read this in ourclass, it sparks a fascinating
(23:17):
discussion.
So fascinating.
Okay.
But this is such a gooddefinition of what faith is.
This is it.
This is it.
Faith, this is what it says.
Now, faith is the substance ofthings hoped for, the evidence
of things not seen.
Okay, what?
That makes no sense.
(23:38):
And I love talking with the kidsin the class and go, define,
explain that to me.
What, how can you possibly haveevidence in something that's not
seen?
And we go through 20 differentscenarios where they always kind
of come back to, it's notevidence unless you see it, feel
it, touch it, right?
Because we're mortals and welive in this world of senses and
(24:01):
we use that sensory experiencefor evidence, right?
Or we'll give an example of acourtroom where you were a
witness of something.
And the witness is the one thatkind of dictates the way that
trial goes.
Well, you're not a witnessunless you've witnessed
something or seen something,right?
So this scripture seems sodissonant, so conflicting with
(24:23):
what we know as evidence.
Evidence is proof.
Evidence is scientific.
Evidence is something I cantouch, something I can smell and
see.
But this literally is saying theopposite.
Faith is substance of thingshoped for, evidence of things
not seen.
Faith is substance and evidenceof things not seen.
What?
(24:43):
What?
I don't know.
What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
I remember sitting in your class and I was sitting
there so lost.
I'm like, what the heck is thisguy talking about?
SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
It's such a fact.
I love this concept so much.
Okay, let me tell you a story.
Because this story, for me,teaches me so powerfully what
faith is, by this definition,and why revelation is the only
way to come to it.
So I'm going to tell you thestory of how I won my wife.
May I?
(25:16):
I
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
love this story.
SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
I love this story more than you.
SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Probably,
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
yeah.
And Kristen, my wife, agreeswith all of it.
Maybe there's a couple of placeswhere she would try and correct
things.
Okay, so I'd gone back to mymission, living with mission
buddies in Provo at theGlenwood, which was awesome.
We're all dating.
We're all going to school.
We're all just love.
It's so exciting time in thelife.
I was dating a girl and I knew Iwasn't going to marry her.
(25:43):
So I started to get kind ofangsty and kind of like, what am
I doing?
What am I doing?
And I kind of was getting like,I really want to find the right
girl.
Why am I, I keep dating girlsthat aren't the right girl.
So one day kind of being angsty,I was in, I don't remember where
at BYU, I was on campus andwe're sitting there and there's
this group of people having aclub called the swing dance
club.
And I was sitting therewatching, just looking around
(26:06):
with my buddies.
And over the intercom thing,someone on a microphone starts
speaking.
And the voice was so angelic andsweet and beautiful and kind.
I immediately heard it and wasdrawn to it.
And I was like, oh, I like thatvoice.
That girl's voice is awesome.
I like that.
And then I looked over and I seewhere the voice is coming from.
And it was so weird.
I immediately looked at thatperson and said, see, that's the
(26:28):
kind of person I want to marry.
There was something about hercountenance, her spirit, her
voice, the way she looked, allof it.
And I was like, that's the kindof girl I want to marry.
And in that moment, I was like,okay, maybe I'll try to go after
that.
I don't know her.
I have no idea.
So I broke up with a girlfriend.
I weaseled my way into thecircle of friends that this girl
(26:52):
was in.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
Weaseled.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Or rizzed.
How about that?
Is that the proper way to
SPEAKER_01 (26:56):
say it?
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Well, I'm trying to use your language.
You tell me.
You
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
rizzed your way in.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
I was the rizzler.
SPEAKER_01 (27:05):
Who taught you that?
It's
SPEAKER_00 (27:10):
just fun to make fun of your language.
So I taught me that.
Okay.
Have you ever heard
SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
me say Rizzler?
SPEAKER_00 (27:15):
All the time.
No, I'm just kidding.
Never, never.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Keep going with your story, man.
SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
Okay.
So I kind of worked my way intothe circle.
And one day we find ourselves atthis restaurant with all of the
kids in that group.
And at the end, she and I becameacquainted a little bit.
And at the end of this dinner...
I go, hey, is anyone willing togive me a ride home?
Now my memory is Kristenimmediately raises her hand and
(27:40):
is like, I'll give you a ride.
Her memory is like lookingaround, no one's offering.
She's like, I'll give you aride.
So there's that debate to behad.
Regardless, she offered a rideand I was like, sweet.
Now I was still kind of angstyat this point because in my mind
I was like, okay, sitting acrossfrom me for the last few weeks
is the person that I would loveto marry this kind of person.
(28:02):
I'd love to marry that person.
The more I got to know her, themore I knew.
And yet we weren't dating and Ididn't know how to date or
wasn't, you know, maybe I wasn'tthe Rizzler, but I wasn't, I
wasn't succeeding.
And I, and I was just angsty.
So I, we sat in the car, she'staking me home and look this,
you're going to think, or peoplewill think this is just the
(28:24):
cheesiest way of approachingsomeone you like.
whatever, dude.
This is how I was still as freshoff my mission.
And it did work.
I was fresh off my mission.
This is just who I was for likea year.
I was just this nerdy spiritualmissionary guy.
So here's what I did.
I said, Hey, Kristen, I read, Idon't usually like, I'm not
doing this for any ulteriormotive.
(28:45):
I literally just who I am.
I read something that likereally powerful in the
scriptures this morning.
I'd love to share it with you.
And I was kind of angsty.
Like, I don't care what shethinks.
I'm never going to marry thisgirl anyway.
So she's like, sure.
I said, okay, Kristen, my wholelife I've studied the Joseph
Smith story, and I love him as aprophet.
And I've always kind of beendisappointed with the way that
(29:07):
he expressed what happened in1820 in New York when he claimed
to see God the Father and JesusChrist, that they appeared to
him.
I'm like, that's like the mostimportant event to any of us on
the planet.
And yet I'm really, I've alwaysbeen very disappointed with the
way he described what happenedthere.
And I said, here's why.
(29:28):
When he talks about it, he says,I saw with my eyes and I heard
with my ears God and the Son.
And I said, Kristen, allthroughout my studies of
Scripture, I know for a factthat our faith isn't built on
what we see or hear.
I can give you 3,000 examples ofpeople who saw and heard, never
(29:49):
came to Christ, never came tofaith.
And so I was like, Kristen, it'sso disappointing that Joseph
wasted this opportunity, thisone most powerful restoration
event, that he wasted it andsaid, the reason I know this was
God and Christ is because I sawthem and I heard them.
Like, that's not, that's like,obviously what he should have
said was, I felt the Holy Ghost.
(30:11):
The Holy Ghost burnt it into mysoul, right?
Because that's how thescriptures teach us.
We can only learn truth throughrevelation and through the
Spirit.
And I'm like, Joseph, what awasted opportunity.
Why did you, no, really?
Like it bothered me all thetime.
And then I said, Kristen, as Iwas studying this morning, I was
studying this story.
And after many years of me notliking this, the Lord answered
(30:32):
me and taught me in pure wisdom,the most powerful thing I've
ever heard.
I said, well, let me read it toyou real quick.
And she's like, sure.
So I pulled open Joseph Smithhistory and it said this.
The power of the catacombovercome him when he started to
pray, and it said this.
It, the dark power, no soonerappeared than I found myself
(30:53):
delivered from the enemy whichheld me bound.
When the light rested upon me, Isaw two personages, see there's
the saw, whose brightness andglory defy all description.
Standing above me in the air,one of them spake unto me,
calling me by name, saying,pointing to the other, this is
my beloved son, hear him.
I was like, so Christen, I readthat this morning because I have
(31:14):
a million times and I focused inon the, I saw God, I heard God.
But this time in my humility andin my prayers, the words, the
following words jumped out at myheart with more power than
anything.
And it's when Joseph said this,when I saw the two personages,
their brightness and their glorydefied description.
(31:36):
And I said in my heart, whywould he even say that?
Well, first of all, why would itdefy description?
What do you think?
Why would it defy description?
What does that mean?
He can't describe it, right?
What does that mean?
Why would he say it defiesdescription?
SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
He can't find the words to describe what happened.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
But he did.
He tried brightness and glory.
But then he says those are weakwords.
That's what I kind of got out ofthat, right?
I don't know how to express whatI'm going to try and express
inadequately, which is I wasexperiencing brightness and I
was experiencing glory.
And the reason they defieddescription is because he was
(32:19):
having a spiritual revelation.
And the best words he couldpossibly think of were
brightness and glory.
If you look up in scripture whatthe definition of glory is, it's
this.
Glory is the outwardmanifestation of the presence of
God, which is Holy Ghost.
The presence of God is HolyGhost.
And when he said brightness,it's like that was just the best
(32:41):
word I could use to express whatwas happening in my soul.
It's not that he saw brightness.
He was experiencing brightness,which is love and peace.
And I looked at Kristen and Isaid, so Kristen, he really was
saying inadequate words and evenqualified it by saying it defies
description.
I can't describe what I'mexperiencing here.
(33:03):
But when he attempted to saybrightness and glory, he
literally there was saying theHoly Ghost is was confirming to
me that this is the Father andthe Son.
And so I looked at Kristen and Isaid, so Kristen, if Joseph
Smith, through brightness andglory or the power of the Holy
Ghost or revelation, knows thatJesus Christ lives and God the
Father lives, then I know justas powerfully as he does.
(33:27):
And I looked at her and guesswhat?
She was crying.
And I had her.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
Oh my
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
gosh.
I had her at that point becausethen she looked at me and said,
well, If that's true, if that'sthe doctrine, she said, then I
also know that God lives becauseI have felt the brightness or
the glory.
She's like, I don't describe itthat way.
I've said it feels warm or itfeels joyful.
But if Joseph is expressing itin brightness and glory, we're
(33:56):
all talking about the same thingthat defies description.
Our mortal words can't describeit, but we're all talking about
the same thing, which isrevelation from God.
So now if I go back to thedefinition of faith, faith is
the substance of things hopedfor, the evidence of things not
seen.
So could Joseph have been blindin that experience and had the
(34:18):
same powerful conviction thatthat was God the Father and
Jesus Christ, do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (34:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
Why?
SPEAKER_01 (34:26):
Because he wasn't relying on...
his senses.
Like he wasn't relying on hiseyes to be like, Oh, I saw God
check.
Like he's real.
I saw Jesus Christ check.
He's real.
I mean, you just spent like 10minutes talking about it.
Like he felt a confirmation andhe felt the Holy ghost
confirming that it truly washeavenly father and his son,
(34:47):
Jesus Christ.
And you don't need your eyes tofeel the Holy ghost.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
So how perfect is Hebrews one 11 or 11 one
defining faith as it's asubstance, right?
When I feel the Holy Ghost, Ican't see it or feel it or touch
it or hear it.
But there's somethingsubstantive in my soul.
There's something really there.
Something's happening.
Like something is present.
(35:13):
Something is powerful.
So I love that it says now faithis the substance of something
that I'm just, I hope it'sthere, right?
But it's the evidence of thingsnot seen.
It's more evidence than if I sawit or heard it or touched it.
The evidence that is unseen isthe Holy Ghost.
That's the Holy Ghost.
So if the definition of faith isthat, then I'm claiming that
(35:38):
revelation is necessary in orderfor us to have faith.
That substance and that evidenceis revelation of the Holy Ghost.
So in order for me, oh, by theway, the story ended very, very
well, because guess what?
We dated and we dated and we gotmarried.
Now, 26 years later, We're likeparadise on earth.
(36:00):
It's heaven on earth.
SPEAKER_01 (36:01):
I love
SPEAKER_00 (36:01):
Kristen.
She is an angel.
She's perfect person.
So yeah, that story taught me.
Oh my goodness.
So as a missionary, then youlisteners, your goal as a
missionary, again, is to leadsouls to Christ.
Okay.
How do you lead souls to Christ?
Faith, repentance, baptism, thegift of the Holy ghost.
Okay.
How do I lead someone to faith?
UNKNOWN (36:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:24):
What you do is you help them receive revelation.
Now, Lauren, there were certain,you had said in the beginning,
what would you say?
Something about an action,something of action, like it
causes us to act.
I don't remember what you said.
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
Revelation leads us to act.
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
Is that what you said?
I think so.
So what are the things that, onyour mission, that best, what
are the best ways to helpsomeone receive revelation,
which then leads to faith,repentance, baptism, and get the
Holy Ghost?
SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
The invitations, you extend them, which is some of
the most important.
Reading their scriptures,specifically the Book of Mormon.
Praying, going to church.
SPEAKER_00 (37:06):
And that's the fascinating thing, that if I can
help my friends or myinvestigators keep commitments,
I invite them, and if I can helpthem keep commitments to do
those three things, those threethings, not me, not the church,
not anything else, but thosethree activities are will invite
the Spirit or revelation intotheir hearts.
(37:27):
And when they experience it,their faith grows.
And guess what happens whentheir faith grows?
SPEAKER_01 (37:33):
They're converted.
SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
Yes, because they repent.
And then they get baptized andreceive the gift of the Holy
Ghost.
SPEAKER_01 (37:39):
Hey, and a little Preach My Gospel shout-out.
Chapter 11, all about extendingcommitments and helping your
friends keep them.
If you can study...
This is my witness.
Let me show you all.
But if you...
can study and learn from chapter11 of Preach My Gospel, if you
can find out the best way toextend commitments, you will
(38:01):
become an effective missionaryfast.
SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
Nice.
SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
You will not waste any time with those who are not
keeping commitments.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
Why?
Because what does keepingcommitments do?
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
It helps people prepare to be baptized.
SPEAKER_00 (38:12):
Yeah, because what becomes before baptism is
repentance.
In order for them to repent,they have to have faith.
And in order to have faith, theyhave to receive revelation
through the Holy Ghost.
And the way that you help themdo that is you invite them to
feast upon the words of Christ,to pray and pray and pray and
ask for revelation and to get tochurch.
When they do those things, whenthey come to church and they
witness, I love the scripture inthe D&C that says, the power of
(38:36):
godliness is manifest in theordinances of the priesthood.
So whenever there's an ordinanceof the priesthood happening, the
opportunity to feel the presenceof God or revelation of the Holy
Ghost is there.
Well, if we invite them tochurch and they see the
ordinance of sacrament, thepower of godliness will be
manifest if they're looking forit.
(38:56):
Oh, it's so good, dude.
It's so powerful.
This is the secret of doingmissionary work.
Invite them to do these threethings.
That will lead them torevelation and their faith will
grow.
Then they'll repent and come tobaptism.
It's so great.
It's so great.
Let me give you a little furtherevidence of this principle.
Matthew 16, 13 to 17.
When Jesus came unto the coastsof Caesarea Philippi, he asked
(39:19):
his disciples, saying, Who domen say that I, the Son of Man,
am?
And they said, Some say thatthou art John the Baptist.
Some say you're Elias, andothers, Jeremias, or one of the
other prophets.
And then Christ said unto them,Whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered andsaid, thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God.
(39:39):
And here's what Jesus answered.
He said unto him, Blessed artthou, Simon Barjona, for flesh
and blood hath not revealed itto thee, but my Father which is
in heaven.
What do you think that means?
SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
I mean, the same as what you're talking about,
Joseph Smith.
It wasn't that he saw JesusChrist.
It wasn't through his flesh andblood that he knew that it was
the Christ.
It's because he received theconfirmation that it was.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
How powerful is that?
Yeah.
It doesn't matter that we'rewalking and talking with Christ,
Peter.
The Holy Ghost that is burnt onyour soul, God's existence and
the Savior's existence, is whatgives you the knowledge and the
wisdom and the happiness thatJesus lives.
What a powerful, powerfulprinciple.
(40:26):
Any thoughts on this?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's
SPEAKER_01 (40:35):
just so good.
It's so clear.
It
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
really is.
It's so clear and it's so good.
I'll tell you, you know what?
I think this is a perfect placeto end, right?
Instead of going into adifferent story, I've got a
couple here, but keep listeningto the podcast, you guys,
because we're just going to keepbringing stories and experiences
that confirm and verify allthese ideas and principles.
(40:59):
And today, I think our purposewas to just introduce this
principle to you that revelationis what leads to conversion.
And man, if you can understandthis, you will be an effective
missionary.
But before you can be aneffective missionary, guess
what?
All of you listeners, you 16,17, 18-year-old, 19-year-old
(41:20):
youth, you also have to followthis process in order for you to
come to Christ.
I don't care that we've beenborn and raised in the church.
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
That doesn't mean anything.
SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
It doesn't.
Because if you don't comethrough the process of feasting
on the words of Christ andpraying for answers and
participating in the ordinanceof the priesthood with real true
intent, then you won't feel orrecognize the Holy Ghost, which
then your faith doesn't grow,which then you'll never be led
to repent yourself, which thenmeans your covenants don't
(41:55):
really exist.
That's a harsh thing to say,right?
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (42:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
How would you edit me or correct that?
No, I
SPEAKER_01 (42:06):
wouldn't say anything.
SPEAKER_00 (42:06):
You're not going to say anything?
SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
I can say your covenants can't justify you.
SPEAKER_00 (42:11):
Without faith and repentance, those are the
requirements on your end.
That's what you commit to do.
So if you don't have faith andrepentance, what good is your
baptism?
Yeah, I know.
That's controversial to say,right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:24):
It's true, though.
And I will say, I know yousaid...
thoughts and i said nothing butsomething just came i love the
way that literally when you sayfaith is the foundation of
everything like it is thefoundation of everything and i
was thinking it's true that wereceive revelation according to
(42:46):
our faith
SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
yeah yeah
SPEAKER_01 (42:48):
so if i'm they're intertwined right okay yeah i
mean it's just like a huge likecircle that just like keeps on
What's that, like an electriccircuit, how it just keeps going
and going and going around?
It is, yeah.
Like, say I'm reading myscriptures on a Tuesday morning,
and I have this question, andI'm kind of just—
SPEAKER_00 (43:07):
Wait, what time is it?
Because that's an interestingdetail that it's a Tuesday.
What time?
SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
8.42.
Okay,
SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
keep going.
In the morning, a.m.
Now I understand the story.
Okay, cool.
Keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (43:16):
Say—oh, this is just hypothetical.
It's not an actual story.
Don't worry.
But say I'm reading— Tuesday at
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
8.45, got
SPEAKER_01 (43:24):
it.
42 okay sorry
SPEAKER_00 (43:25):
um
SPEAKER_01 (43:29):
say i'm just reading the book of mormon and i just
reading it to read it reading itbecause my mission president
told me reading to reading itbecause i know i should and i i
want something out of it but idon't have the faith that i'll
actually receive anything
SPEAKER_00 (43:44):
nice
SPEAKER_01 (43:44):
i'm not gonna receive anything awesome yeah
great point like the I alwaystalked about this in the field,
but the intention that you placebehind every action matters.
SPEAKER_00 (43:57):
And let me bring in the other side and show how
they're entwined.
When I truly was like faced togo on a mission, I was like, my
life's pretty good.
I'm not sure if, you know, Isaid, well, there's, I've been
told if I'll just pray, I'll geta revelation.
And if I get revelation that I'mgoing and I'll be a good
missionary.
So I decided without anypreparation, without any work,
without any reading thescriptures or serving other
(44:19):
people or I would just go andask God, hey, do you exist?
Tell me you exist, and Christlives, and the church is true,
and the Book of Mormon's real,and I'll go on a mission.
And so I went up and prayed.
Nothing.
I didn't get revelation.
I didn't get the Spirit.
I didn't get anything.
You know why?
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
How do you say nothing in Russian?
SPEAKER_00 (44:35):
Ничего.
SPEAKER_01 (44:36):
Ничего.
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
Вообще ничего.
But you know why I didn't getanything?
SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
Why?
SPEAKER_00 (44:43):
Because I wasn't exercising any faith unto the
words.
I wasn't reading.
I wasn't doing anything.
Faith, the principle of action,wasn't applied at all.
So I liked your point that faithand revelation are like this
intertwined, important firststep.
And it emphasizes more that thisprinciple is true, that
revelation leads to faith,repentance, baptism, and get the
(45:05):
Holy Ghost.
Because it wasn't until I wentback down off that mountain and
started to exercise a littlefaith by opening up the
scriptures and reading them andserving other people, like I
started just this little seedsof faith.
Then the answers came to thequestions that I asked up on
that mountain.
But not until I had a little bitof faith.
But like you said, when thatHoly Ghost came, that first time
(45:28):
that I really recognized it,man, did my faith grow.
And then I wanted more.
And I would apply more faith andread more scripture and pray
more and serve more.
And then more revelation wouldcome.
And it just rolls and rolls androlls.
That brought to mind one morequick story.
Okay, I was in the MTC.
And Man, I wish I could find,one of my teachers, her name was
(45:50):
Sister Wrencher.
And I wish I could find herbecause she is amazing, man.
Changed my life.
And she had this really uniquelook.
Really, really, like we all,she's an attractive girl, so we
all liked her.
But she had this haircut whereher bangs, like super straight
hair, kind of to her shoulders alittle bit, but her bangs were
like almost covering her eyesand just cut straight across.
(46:12):
So super straight.
It almost reminded me of aMuppet a little bit.
A little bit.
A little bit.
And she also had very tan skinand this just huge smile.
And so I picture in my mind, I'ma designer, I'm an illustrator.
So I picture in this mind, this,this, this Muppet hair with this
just huge smile face.
And that's it.
That's all I see.
Just this big smile.
(46:32):
I've drawn the picture manytimes before.
Anyway, Sister Wrencher, all notimportant.
Sister Wrencher, one day we'rein the MTC and she was teaching
us and we were going through theBook of Mormon and we were all
just kind of going through theroutine and following along,
participating.
It was good, really good.
And she gets to a point in thirdNephi where Christ has come to
the people and she startsreading and she's reading and
reading.
And then she slows down a littlebit and I'm following along.
(46:54):
I'm remembering, oh, this issuch good stuff.
This is very powerful.
And when she got to one point,she stopped and she said,
everyone close your eyes and letme read that again.
She's like, seriously, everyoneclose your eyes.
So we all, I closed my eyes.
She read it again.
And then she said for the firsttime, no one had ever done this
to me before.
She said for the first time,someone had said this to me in
(47:15):
my life.
She says, Do you feel that?
Elder Record, do you feel thatright now?
When I say these words ofChrist, she says, that is the
Holy Ghost.
And immediately I turned mythoughts inward and went, oh,
that is the Holy Ghost.
Like I'm recognizing it andfeeling it now.
(47:35):
And my mind, like in a movie,like flashed back over my whole
life at all the different timesthat I had recognized the Holy
Ghost.
I remember being in the parkinglot of Disneyland for the first
time, holding the hands of myparents, walking in the park of
Disneyland.
I was so happy, but that was theHoly Ghost testifying of
Disneyland.
(47:55):
No, testifying that I was withmy family.
I remembered like 15 otherevents in my life and I was
like, my goodness, at the time Ididn't recognize that that was
the Holy Ghost because SisterWrencher just now identified it
for me or helped me identify it.
I now know exactly what thosewere.
And moving forward in my life,The rest of my life, I now know
(48:16):
how to identify it.
The reason I bring that up isbecause as a missionary, if
revelation leads to faith,repentance, baptism, and get the
Holy Ghost or conversion, if youcan become good at inviting,
like you said, chapter 11,invite people to do the things
that invite revelation.
But if you can also be good athelping them identify it, that's
(48:36):
the spirit.
That's the Holy Ghost.
Their faith will grow all themore because it's based in this
revelation from God.
powerful idea help othersidentify the Holy Ghost pretty
cool
SPEAKER_01 (48:51):
and people think all the time oh wait I don't know
how to like I don't know how tohelp people identify the Holy
Ghost whatever because maybe Ifeel it differently or I don't
feel it the you know the Lordpromises that the Spirit will be
with us to confirm truth rightso as long as you're keeping
your covenants it's promised tobe with you and so in those
(49:12):
moments where you feel that Andmaybe you don't feel it, but you
know that you're testifying of atruth.
You literally can just say, hey,this in the room right now, like
the fact that you know this istrue, that's the Holy Ghost
confirming it to you.
Like this is the Holy Ghost.
When I started doing that, whenI started being able to help my
(49:32):
friends recognize what the HolyGhost was and, you know, telling
them there's more than one wayto feel it and whatnot, that's
when I started seeing success as
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
a missionary.
Fascinating.
Fascinating.
And sometimes the feeling of theHoly Ghost, no, not sometimes,
all the time, requires faith.
Right?
This intertwined idea of faithand revelation is so powerful to
understand.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:57):
I mean, it's like a principle of almost everything
in life.
I was thinking about it.
Like, I'm a 32 comparing it to aseed and to a seed growing.
Like, one day if I want to be asbig and strong as Sean Record,
but I never go to the gym or Inever...
you know, do all the thingsthat, that he does to be big and
strong.
(50:18):
Like I'm never going to getthere.
Like if I'm driving in the carand I get a flat tire, but I
never get out of the car to fixit, I'm not going anywhere.
My car's not getting fixed.
I'm not getting to mydestination.
Like every, you can apply faithto every single aspect of life.
And it just makes sense toconfirm and like reconfirm and
reconfirm this idea that youneed to act and If you want, if
(50:42):
you want to have strong faith,like I remember I teach this
lesson all the time because someof our friends wouldn't keep
their commitments or whatever.
And I wouldn't say straight totheir face, like, Oh, you don't
have faith, but kind of alongthe lines of that, I'll be like,
so what do you believe in?
SPEAKER_00 (50:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:59):
And they, you know, kind of give me this like little
answer, whatever.
But then I'd be like, You dorealize, and I kind of explained
this principle, that faith is aprinciple of action and power.
And they'd recognize, okay,well, my faith's not going
anywhere if I'm not doinganything.
And I had one friend at onepoint, and he was like, We can't
(51:26):
just lay back and relax and...
like wait for like our faith togrow, right?
To feel this faith grow.
Because you don't sit back andhave your faith grow.
You have to actively pursue it.
You have to actively cultivateit.
SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
Do the things that Jesus Christ taught us will grow
our faith.
Serve other people, read andfeast upon his words, pray
constantly, be a part of theordinances, right?
These things, sing hymns, singpraises of God.
There was one point on mymission where me and my
companion were like, All we'redoing here is helping them feel
and then identify the HolyGhost.
(52:05):
And so if they're not keepingcommitments, let's go a level
deeper.
We literally, with the beginningof each one, say, hey, this is
going to be really awkward andembarrassing for all of us in
this room, but would you mind?
Did you
SPEAKER_01 (52:14):
sing?
SPEAKER_00 (52:15):
I said, would you mind if we sang you a song?
I've done that before.
And these Ukrainians, theseex-Soviet Ukrainians look at us
like, what?
You want to sing to us?
And they'd be like, sure.
And guess what?
Every single time when we endedand I looked at them and said,
how does that make you feelinside?
(52:36):
All of them were shocked andwent, actually, it feels really
lovely.
Like there's something nice inthere.
Lovely.
And it wasn't my singing.
It was the fact that we had justsaid the word Jesus Christ or,
you know, we were singing hymns,right?
And the Spirit always came in.
And we were like, oh mygoodness.
We can embarrass ourselves insinging hymn, and it invites the
spirit to the point where we canidentify it for them or help
(52:57):
them identify it.
And that always started off themeeting so spiritually.
I love it.
It's so good.
Okay, well, this was a gooddiscussion.
Thanks for joining us, you guys,on the podcast.
Our challenge, I guess, would bethis.
You have to seek your ownrevelation, and you do that by
taking action, faithful action.
(53:18):
Start with feasting upon thewords of Christ.
Start with asking God the Fatherif he lives.
Ask if Christ lives.
Ask if the scriptures are true,if Joseph's a prophet, if
President Nelson's a prophet.
But do it with all your heart,mind, and strength.
And I promise you, you willreceive the Holy Ghost through
revelation, and this will growyour faith.
(53:43):
joining me.
Yeah, because what becomes before baptism is
repentance.
In order for them to repent,they have to have faith.
And in order to have faith, theyhave to receive revelation
through the Holy Ghost.
And the way that you help themdo that is you invite them to
feast upon the words of Christ,to pray and pray and pray and
ask for revelation and to get tochurch.
But there's somethingsubstantive in my soul.
(00:22):
There's something really there.
Something's happening.
Like something is present.
Something is powerful.
So I love that it says now faithis the substance.
Evidence of things not seen.
It's more evidence than if I sawit.
(00:44):
All right.
Welcome back.
Mission Stories Podcast.
Hey, Lauren.
Good evening.
Good evening.
So exciting whenever we get tosit down and talk about our
missions and talk about theSavior.
It's just great.
It's great, right?
Great time.
Like, even if no one everlistens to our podcast anymore,
(01:05):
the joy to even just gettogether and talk about this
stuff with anybody is so fun.
Like-minded...
equally as enthusiastic peopleabout the gospel of Jesus
Christ.
And it's just, it just feelsgood.
It's just good.
SPEAKER_01 (01:20):
Yeah.
So good.
SPEAKER_00 (01:22):
You, um, excited today.
We're going to talk about thesecond class that I teach.
This is principle number two inthe series for the mission prep
stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (01:31):
I love this one.
SPEAKER_00 (01:32):
This one's a good one.
This one's a good one.
So this one listeners, we call,this is principle number two,
again, for context, just forcontext.
UNKNOWN (01:41):
Um,
SPEAKER_00 (01:42):
My mission was incredible.
It was so special and sospiritual.
And I always ask coming home,why is it that some people
didn't get the same experiencethat I had?
I just felt like that's sounfair.
And over the years I'verealized, oh, okay, well,
there's some things that I didor my companions did that led to
a spiritual and happy experienceand if everyone would do those
(02:07):
things i think that everyonewill have a better chance at a
really amazing missionexperience and so i kind of
compiled these seven eight ninethings and today we're going to
talk about one that i call
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
revelation leads to conversion
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
revelation leads to conversion and i always try and
start with i love being in aclassroom with all these young
kids these teenagers and I lovestarting with going, because
when I was that age, I couldn'tanswer this, but you just start
with this question.
Like, okay, when you all becomea missionary, what is your one
point?
There's one goal, one purpose,one simple thing.
(02:44):
And it's really hard to get theanswer out of that, even though
the answer is really simple andquite direct.
Lauren, what's your one purposeas a missionary?
SPEAKER_01 (02:55):
To help others come unto Christ.
SPEAKER_00 (02:57):
That's it.
That's your one thing we'redoing is leading souls
SPEAKER_01 (03:00):
to Christ.
SPEAKER_00 (03:01):
To Christ, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
And these are all good.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause it's semantics, right?
There's all kinds of differentwords we use in the church,
conversion or testimony orscriptures talk about coming to
Christ or turning to Christ.
It's all kind of talking aboutthe same thing.
But today we're going to talkabout conversion and we're going
to talk about what it is.
(03:22):
specifically what it is, becauseonce we define that, then we
really can drill down andunderstand why this principle,
which is called revelation leadsto conversion.
And in fact, I'll go deeper.
Revelation is the only way tolead to conversion.
Why this is such a powerful,powerful and important principle
that if you don't learn on yourmission, you, how can you learn,
how can you lead people toChrist?
(03:45):
If you don't know how to, what,how conversion happens.
And so this principle is allabout this practical knowledge
of how do you lead people toChrist.
And I'm going to say, Revelationnot only leads people to Christ,
but it's the only way to leadpeople to Christ.
Okay, so let's start off withthis.
Let's just get your opinion.
What do you think that means,Revelation leads to conversion?
(04:07):
What in your minds, your words,what do you think that means?
SPEAKER_01 (04:10):
Well, I feel like you have to break down what each
of those words mean, right?
Revelation and conversion arekind of two big words that a lot
of people don't fullyunderstand.
SPEAKER_00 (04:18):
Okay, let me ask you.
So let's focus on conversion.
What is conversion?
Is it testimony?
So if you have a testimony, doesthat mean you're converted?
SPEAKER_01 (04:25):
No.
SPEAKER_00 (04:25):
Is conversion a change of heart?
Is conversion I'm strong andactive in the church?
Is conversion I'm a missionary?
You don't think conversion andtestimony are the same
SPEAKER_01 (04:34):
thing?
No.
Okay.
Conversion...
SPEAKER_00 (04:36):
But when people get up and say...
Every week, I'd like to bury, ormonth, I'd like to bury my
testimony.
And I know this church is true,and I love my mom and dad.
Like, we get so stuck on a lotof words, like testimony or
conversion, that they almostlose their meaning.
So I'm glad we're starting todefine it.
Sorry, I interrupted you.
SPEAKER_01 (04:56):
Go ahead.
Oh, it's okay.
Conversion, I like to think of,is a change in our nature rather
than just a change in ourbehavior.
I feel like sometimes when wehave a testimony, it can
influence a change in ourbehavior.
But when we're converted, itchanges our very nature.
And so when the scriptures talkabout Alma, when he's going
through his repentance process,he talks about, I had a mighty
(05:18):
change of heart.
And they talk about how the onlyway to come unto Christ, it
talks about it all throughoutthe Book of Mormon, The only way
to come unto Christ is to bereborn and have a mighty change
of heart.
That's conversion.
SPEAKER_00 (05:32):
So what does that have to do with Christ?
Well, we'll get into that.
We'll get into that.
Okay, so your idea of conversionis, obviously, again, your
purpose as a missionary is tolead souls to Christ.
You yourself need to come toChrist.
And in that process, or when wecome to Christ, conversion
happens.
And you're defining conversionas, in the Nephi sense, a mighty
(05:52):
change of heart.
I'll never forget, I don'tremember how long I'd been on
the mission, but we're out inthe street contacting in
Donetsk, Ukraine, and I came tothis man and I just looked at
him and I'm just like, I don'tknow why.
I just love that man.
I don't know why.
I just have a compassion and aheart and a love.
(06:13):
Can I talk to you, please?
And he looked at me and got so,just hatred in his eyes.
And he spit on me.
I'd never been spit on before.
And typically in that situation,you get angry.
Yeah, you get mad.
You get feelings of hurt.
You get feelings of, but Ididn't.
(06:36):
I loved him so much more withsuch compassion.
And all I wanted was hishappiness.
And it's like, there wasn'tanything a guy could do to me.
And I kind of started thinking,oh, maybe that's the change of
heart.
Right?
We go our whole lives as littlebabies.
And all we care about is whatour parents are doing and
(06:57):
thinking and saying.
And then you realize that, oh,there's this whole world outside
of my parents, this socialworld, other people that exist.
And now all you care about iswhat your peers think.
And in this process, it's a veryselfish kind of self-centered
process, right?
It's just all about me and whatam I experiencing and who am I
to them?
And naturally, we all kind ofthink of ourselves.
(07:18):
So when you say mighty change ofheart, I understand that as I go
from a selfish, fallen person tosomeone who thinks about myself
constantly to having a heartthat is more towards Heavenly
Father, Jesus Christ, but othersspecifically.
And in that moment when I talkedto that man, I just loved him so
(07:41):
much.
I think I was like, maybe thisis what the result of the mighty
change of heart is.
What do you think it is?
You said conversion is a mightychange of heart.
What is it?
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
Well, I agree with everything that you said.
I also think a change of hearthas to do with a willingness to
turn your will to HeavenlyFathers.
I love this principle, the factthat it's revelation leads to
conversion because when youreceive revelation, you're
learning more and more, right?
Yeah.
(08:11):
I think about it like I'mlearning more about my Savior.
I'm learning more about JesusChrist, who he was, what he does
for me, what he did for others,what he continues to do for us,
how he acted towards others, howhe reacted to situations.
And you think about how you canbecome more like that.
So that change of heart isbecoming, I think, more like our
(08:32):
Savior.
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Okay, so I totally agree.
And I think that's one half ofconversion.
It is our heart changing, usbecoming more like our Savior.
I think that's one half of it.
I think the other half is, Ialways like the visual of the
song and the scriptures, thewise man built his house upon
(08:52):
the rocks.
I love it so much becausescriptures refer to this
foundation that if we're on topof, it doesn't matter how hard
the wind blows.
It doesn't matter how cold it isor how big the waves are.
Our house is built firmly onthat foundation.
it will never fail.
Whereas the man who built hishouse on the sand, all of it
will crumble because there's nofoundation, right?
(09:15):
So I like to draw this pictureon the board when I'm doing this
class of a foundation next to asandy ground and the house on
that foundation.
And I go, this here is coming toChrist or slash this here is
conversion.
So I think one half ofconversion is what you said.
It is a mighty change of heart.
It's us becoming like thesavior.
(09:35):
I think the other half is,entails exactly what gospel
means, good news, which is thatI'm not on my own anymore when I
come to Christ.
God doesn't see me in hisjustice and my sins.
He sees me with the Savior.
So the second part is coming tothe Savior and living in a
(09:56):
covenant with him.
This part is even moreimportant.
So the question is this, Lauren,how specifically, again, if our
one goal is to bring souls toChrist, and that is conversion.
What is the way to come toChrist?
And scripturally, it is clearerthan anything that there is only
one way to come to Christ.
(10:18):
Christ even says, it's mydoctrine.
And if you talk of any otherdoctrine, more or less than
this, it cometh of evil.
Like this is my doctrine.
I will preach this doctrine.
He repeats it more thananything.
So I think the second part ofconversion or coming to Christ,
we have to understand how, whatexactly is it?
And I'm not talking aboutrevelation because I'm saying
(10:39):
that revelation leads to the howto come to Christ.
Revelation is not coming toChrist.
Revelation is what starts theprocess of coming to Christ.
So what would you say?
I mean, am I speaking toocryptically?
And is it like, like, what doyou think is the way, the one
and only way to come to Christ?
SPEAKER_01 (10:57):
Through faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement,
repentance, baptism, andreceiving the gift of the Holy
Ghost.
SPEAKER_00 (11:04):
By the end of this class that I teach, um, I make
the class say that 35 timesbecause I've drawn it up on this
board with this foundation inthis house and a person standing
on that foundation.
And I say, how does one come toChrist?
And typically in the church,we'll be like, well, you got to
go to church.
Well, you got to read yourscriptures.
We got to believe you got to doall these answers like these
(11:26):
primary answers.
We won't read the scriptures,but truly what you said is the
one and only way to come toChrist.
It has to start with faith.
Faith is the first principle ofour existence.
It's the first principle of thegospel.
And faith leads to repentance.
We won't repent unless we havefaith in Christ.
We won't.
(11:47):
And faith without repentance istotal bunk.
SPEAKER_01 (11:53):
Bunk?
SPEAKER_00 (11:54):
It is.
You tell me, honestly, of whatvalue is faith without
repentance?
SPEAKER_01 (12:00):
Nobody repents if they don't have faith.
SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
That's right.
And the scriptures don't say tocome to Christ and be converted,
you just need to be faithful.
You just need to have faith.
No, faith is one fourth of therequirement to be converted and
come to Christ.
The second principle isrepentance.
So faith without repentance isabsolutely worthless.
And once you've, through faith,fallen on your knees in humility
(12:23):
and repented, you now can go tothe third step, which is enter
into a covenant with God throughthe ordinance of baptism.
That's what baptism is.
It's entering into that covenantand saying, okay, I promise that
I will continue to have faithand repent my whole life.
And in exchange, Christ says,then I save you.
I will suffer for your sins,right?
And then after that, we get thisgreat, great, powerful gift of
(12:48):
the Holy Ghost.
And we'll go into more detail inanother episode about what that
is.
But okay, so...
Having a mighty change of heartis the process of faith,
repentance, baptism, and get theHoly Ghost.
Conversion is coming to Christthrough faith, repentance,
baptism, and the Holy Ghost.
Have we drilled it in enough?
SPEAKER_01 (13:03):
I think
SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
so.
Or should we say it 30 moretimes this episode?
SPEAKER_01 (13:07):
Y'all will hear it.
Y'all will hear it.
I trust.
SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
Okay, so if we've clearly defined what conversion
is, coming to Christ throughfaith, repentance, baptism, and
get the Holy Ghost, then whatthe heck is revelation?
So before we can tie those twotogether, let's define what
revelation is.
What do you think?
What do you think is revelation?
SPEAKER_01 (13:27):
I think of kind of breaking it apart as to
revelation, but also havingrevelatory experiences.
For example, Joseph Smith, whenhe was praying and he was
seeking without Everything thathe had, the truth of the gospel
(13:48):
of what he was learning, he wasable to receive a confirmation
from that gift of the HolyGhost.
So when we're converted to theLord and we have the gift of the
Holy Ghost with us, it's so mucheasier because it's there to
confirm these truths to us thatwe're learning.
And as a missionary, it's kindof embarrassing to admit this,
but honestly, I don't reallycare.
(14:10):
When I went out to the field, Ihad no idea that anything about
the covenant of baptism.
I literally was a baptizedmember of the church and I had
no idea.
That's pretty normal.
The promises that I made, like Ihad no idea that if I did this,
I would receive this.
And these were the specificpromises.
This is what I had to do.
This was what Heavenly Fatherand Christ would do for me.
I
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
had no idea.
But the reason you didn't knowit is because you hadn't up
until that point feasted uponthe words of Christ.
And guess what teaches you whatthe details of the covenant are?
The words of Christ, Scripture,right?
So when you dove into Scripture,you started to learn these
things.
Exactly.
There's nothing magical about amission that teaches us about
faith or repentance or covenantsor revelation.
You just started reading thewords of Christ and started
teaching.
Okay, don't be embarrassed.
(14:50):
We are all at that point.
SPEAKER_01 (14:51):
I'm actually not that embarrassed.
It's not that deep.
But anyway, so I'm sitting athis own conference.
This elder gets up and he'stalking and he just invites
everyone.
He says, I studied the doctrineof baptism and it changed my
mission.
It changed the way I domissionary work.
I invite you all to do it.
I don't know how many people didit, but I did.
(15:11):
Nice.
And I remember he, he left acouple of transfers before I
did, but at his last zoneconference, I went up to him.
I was like, you have no idea,but your invitation like changed
my life.
And you can see his, like someof my companions that were like
watching this interaction andthey were like, dude, he totally
just like lit up.
Like anyways, that's not thepoint.
(15:32):
The point is that I studied thedoctrine of baptism and because
I knew that what these promiseswere that we're making when
we're baptized, I recognize,okay, these things have happened
in my life, but also I learnedit and I know that Christ is
true to his promises.
And so then I could testify ofit more powerfully, which then
(15:53):
in turn helped more people getbaptized that I taught.
SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
Okay, I love that.
And this is good because westarted with defining what
revelation is.
We kind of veered off and wentback to conversion.
But I'm glad because you'refocusing on faith, repentance,
baptism.
I love that because what's moreimportant to you listeners than
to learn again?
If the point is you're listeningto this podcast because you're
like, I want to be prepared formy mission, then the main thing
(16:19):
we can teach you is the point ofyour mission is to lead souls to
Christ.
Oh, well, then how do I do that?
Okay, great.
Let's talk about how to do thatand convert people.
faith, repentance, baptism, andget the Holy Ghost.
So the more we talk about allthose four principles, I could
talk about it and nothing elsethe rest of my life, and I would
be satisfied and happy, and Iwould keep learning, and that's
all that matters.
It really is.
But back to the originalquestion.
(16:41):
Define for me what you believeRevelation is.
Because my statement here, theprinciple is this.
Now that we know what conversionis, my statement is that No one
will come to conversion, willcome to Christ through the
conversion of those four thingswithout beginning with
revelation.
And so I really like in my classto go, let's define revelation.
(17:01):
You have to understand whatrevelation is.
What do you think?
Define it.
What do you think?
What do you think?
I pointed at you.
SPEAKER_01 (17:08):
I think revelation is receiving a confirmation of
the truthfulness of the gospel.
SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
So it's like knowledge.
It's knowing.
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (17:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (17:20):
How does that relate to either faith, repentance,
baptism, or the gift of the HolyGhost, in your opinion?
Knowing, the knowledge thatcomes through a confirmation
through the Holy Ghost.
SPEAKER_01 (17:34):
I think it leads people to action.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
For
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
example...
I, before the mission, had noidea how to, I didn't really
understand the atonement.
I didn't know how to apply itinto my life.
But I made it a goal to startstudying it because I wanted to
understand it.
Because I knew that, you know,Christ died for me.
I knew
SPEAKER_00 (17:55):
it.
Yeah, you heard the words yourwhole life.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_01 (17:57):
but I didn't know how it applied to me, right?
And so I took this time to studyit.
And I will never stop talkingabout Stephen Robinson's book,
Believe in Christ, because it'sso good.
It's the best.
He shares the parable of thebicycle.
And he talks about at the end ofexplaining this parable, when
you understand the completehopelessness that we have as
(18:22):
humans, you accept the divinityof the atonement of Jesus Christ
and that we need it.
And so I decided to try toaccept that harsh reality.
Like, okay, well, I'm not makingit back on my own.
Like, I am not perfect.
And then I...
Nice.
Yeah.
(19:02):
It was a moment like that whereI put in the work to understand
what it was, how it applied tomy life.
And then afterwards, I justalways kept a prayer in my
heart.
Like, I want to know this istrue.
I want to apply it to my life.
I want to see the blessings comeout of it.
And I finally had thatexperience or that moment where
I recognized what it was.
SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
Before we move on from that, give me a little,
like, break it.
Get a little bit abstract andspiritual here.
You said you heard a voice inyour head.
But what was the true, how didyou identify this as revelation
in the Holy Ghost?
Were you experiencing somethingin your heart, in your soul, in
your spirit, or was it all justaudible in your head?
(19:41):
No.
SPEAKER_01 (19:43):
It's, I'd be lying if I said, oh, I felt this
burning in my bosom.
Like, that's personally not howI feel the Spirit.
But everything just clickedinstantly.
Like everything just likeclicked and it all just made
sense.
That's how I recognize that Ifeel the spirit.
Everything just like makes senseto me.
SPEAKER_00 (20:02):
Is it just making sense in your head?
Or are there accompanying whatI'll call substances and
evidences that are not seen?
In other words, we always usethe word feel.
We feel the spirit.
I don't like the word feelbecause feel suggests emotion.
(20:23):
And even though our bodies andminds can express emotion after
we experience the Holy Ghost,the Holy Ghost isn't emotion.
The Holy Ghost is a spirit, likeJoseph Smith said, when God the
Father speaks to us through theHoly Ghost, it's as if his
spirit in the absence of hisbody is speaking directly to
your spirit in the absence ofyour body.
(20:45):
And that experience through theHoly Ghost or through spirits,
the scriptures talk about aslove and peace and joy.
Now, those are inadequate wordsbecause those are kind of
emotional words.
It's not emotion.
It is a power or a peace or astill small voice.
And I love that all throughScripture, they're all
(21:06):
inadequate words, but they'redoing their best to try and
express something that can't beexpressed in mortal terms,
right?
The burning of the bosom, thestill small voice, right?
Peace, joy, love, longsuffering.
All these things are trying toexpress what I experienced or
felt.
(21:27):
So was any of that present whenyou had this experience?
SPEAKER_01 (21:30):
Absolutely.
And there were a ton ofexperiences like that.
And it's like you said, like Ican't really explain what that
feels like because there arejust no words, but everything
just made sense.
SPEAKER_00 (21:43):
It's powerful too, right?
When it's that much wisdom,clarity, and just light, right?
It's light from God.
SPEAKER_01 (21:50):
It is light.
And then, you know, afterwards,I'd have experiences where I saw
what I learned come into playwith any time that I received
revelation.
And then it was just aconfirmation of, okay, yeah,
that was light.
That was true.
SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
Okay, so this is fascinating.
So, again, we defined whatconversion is.
I'm saying that revelation leadsto conversion, so now we're
trying to define revelation.
You're saying that it is fromGod...
a confirmation of truth orknowledge or something.
So let's do this.
In order to tie Revelation intoconversion, we have to, again,
(22:27):
understand how conversionstarts.
Again, what's principle numberone?
What's step number one inconversion?
SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
Are you asking me?
SPEAKER_00 (22:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:35):
Oh, sorry, faith.
SPEAKER_00 (22:36):
Faith, right?
So what I'm going to suggest isRevelation and faith are tied
together in such a necessary waythat it's the only way to start
to grow that faith, which willlead to repentance and then the
covenants.
Can you go to Hebrews 11 one?
Or I can read it.
I got it here.
I got it
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
here.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (22:54):
Okay.
So to me, if we can understandthis first principle of the
gospel, what faith is, then wewill have crystal clear
understanding of what revelationis and why revelation is
necessary to start conversion.
Or in other words, to havefaith.
Okay, so with that in mind, letme read this.
And this is really abstract.
And when I read this in ourclass, it sparks a fascinating
(23:17):
discussion.
So fascinating.
Okay.
But this is such a gooddefinition of what faith is.
This is it.
This is it.
Faith, this is what it says.
Now, faith is the substance ofthings hoped for, the evidence
of things not seen.
Okay, what?
That makes no sense.
(23:38):
And I love talking with the kidsin the class and go, define,
explain that to me.
What, how can you possibly haveevidence in something that's not
seen?
And we go through 20 differentscenarios where they always kind
of come back to, it's notevidence unless you see it, feel
it, touch it, right?
Because we're mortals and welive in this world of senses and
(24:01):
we use that sensory experiencefor evidence, right?
Or we'll give an example of acourtroom where you were a
witness of something.
And the witness is the one thatkind of dictates the way that
trial goes.
Well, you're not a witnessunless you've witnessed
something or seen something,right?
So this scripture seems sodissonant, so conflicting with
(24:23):
what we know as evidence.
Evidence is proof.
Evidence is scientific.
Evidence is something I cantouch, something I can smell and
see.
But this literally is saying theopposite.
Faith is substance of thingshoped for, evidence of things
not seen.
Faith is substance and evidenceof things not seen.
What?
(24:43):
What?
I don't know.
What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01 (24:48):
I remember sitting in your class and I was sitting
there so lost.
I'm like, what the heck is thisguy talking about?
SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
It's such a fact.
I love this concept so much.
Okay, let me tell you a story.
Because this story, for me,teaches me so powerfully what
faith is, by this definition,and why revelation is the only
way to come to it.
So I'm going to tell you thestory of how I won my wife.
May I?
(25:16):
I
SPEAKER_01 (25:17):
love this story.
SPEAKER_00 (25:18):
I love this story more than you.
SPEAKER_01 (25:20):
Probably,
SPEAKER_00 (25:20):
yeah.
And Kristen, my wife, agreeswith all of it.
Maybe there's a couple of placeswhere she would try and correct
things.
Okay, so I'd gone back to mymission, living with mission
buddies in Provo at theGlenwood, which was awesome.
We're all dating.
We're all going to school.
We're all just love.
It's so exciting time in thelife.
I was dating a girl and I knew Iwasn't going to marry her.
(25:43):
So I started to get kind ofangsty and kind of like, what am
I doing?
What am I doing?
And I kind of was getting like,I really want to find the right
girl.
Why am I, I keep dating girlsthat aren't the right girl.
So one day kind of being angsty,I was in, I don't remember where
at BYU, I was on campus andwe're sitting there and there's
this group of people having aclub called the swing dance
club.
And I was sitting therewatching, just looking around
(26:06):
with my buddies.
And over the intercom thing,someone on a microphone starts
speaking.
And the voice was so angelic andsweet and beautiful and kind.
I immediately heard it and wasdrawn to it.
And I was like, oh, I like thatvoice.
That girl's voice is awesome.
I like that.
And then I looked over and I seewhere the voice is coming from.
And it was so weird.
I immediately looked at thatperson and said, see, that's the
(26:28):
kind of person I want to marry.
There was something about hercountenance, her spirit, her
voice, the way she looked, allof it.
And I was like, that's the kindof girl I want to marry.
And in that moment, I was like,okay, maybe I'll try to go after
that.
I don't know her.
I have no idea.
So I broke up with a girlfriend.
I weaseled my way into thecircle of friends that this girl
(26:52):
was in.
SPEAKER_01 (26:52):
Weaseled.
SPEAKER_00 (26:53):
Or rizzed.
How about that?
Is that the proper way to
SPEAKER_01 (26:56):
say it?
Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
Well, I'm trying to use your language.
You tell me.
You
SPEAKER_01 (27:00):
rizzed your way in.
SPEAKER_00 (27:03):
I was the rizzler.
SPEAKER_01 (27:05):
Who taught you that?
It's
SPEAKER_00 (27:10):
just fun to make fun of your language.
So I taught me that.
Okay.
Have you ever heard
SPEAKER_01 (27:14):
me say Rizzler?
SPEAKER_00 (27:15):
All the time.
No, I'm just kidding.
Never, never.
SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
Keep going with your story, man.
SPEAKER_00 (27:19):
Okay.
So I kind of worked my way intothe circle.
And one day we find ourselves atthis restaurant with all of the
kids in that group.
And at the end, she and I becameacquainted a little bit.
And at the end of this dinner...
I go, hey, is anyone willing togive me a ride home?
Now my memory is Kristenimmediately raises her hand and
(27:40):
is like, I'll give you a ride.
Her memory is like lookingaround, no one's offering.
She's like, I'll give you aride.
So there's that debate to behad.
Regardless, she offered a rideand I was like, sweet.
Now I was still kind of angstyat this point because in my mind
I was like, okay, sitting acrossfrom me for the last few weeks
is the person that I would loveto marry this kind of person.
(28:02):
I'd love to marry that person.
The more I got to know her, themore I knew.
And yet we weren't dating and Ididn't know how to date or
wasn't, you know, maybe I wasn'tthe Rizzler, but I wasn't, I
wasn't succeeding.
And I, and I was just angsty.
So I, we sat in the car, she'staking me home and look this,
you're going to think, or peoplewill think this is just the
(28:24):
cheesiest way of approachingsomeone you like.
whatever, dude.
This is how I was still as freshoff my mission.
And it did work.
I was fresh off my mission.
This is just who I was for likea year.
I was just this nerdy spiritualmissionary guy.
So here's what I did.
I said, Hey, Kristen, I read, Idon't usually like, I'm not
doing this for any ulteriormotive.
(28:45):
I literally just who I am.
I read something that likereally powerful in the
scriptures this morning.
I'd love to share it with you.
And I was kind of angsty.
Like, I don't care what shethinks.
I'm never going to marry thisgirl anyway.
So she's like, sure.
I said, okay, Kristen, my wholelife I've studied the Joseph
Smith story, and I love him as aprophet.
And I've always kind of beendisappointed with the way that
(29:07):
he expressed what happened in1820 in New York when he claimed
to see God the Father and JesusChrist, that they appeared to
him.
I'm like, that's like the mostimportant event to any of us on
the planet.
And yet I'm really, I've alwaysbeen very disappointed with the
way he described what happenedthere.
And I said, here's why.
(29:28):
When he talks about it, he says,I saw with my eyes and I heard
with my ears God and the Son.
And I said, Kristen, allthroughout my studies of
Scripture, I know for a factthat our faith isn't built on
what we see or hear.
I can give you 3,000 examples ofpeople who saw and heard, never
(29:49):
came to Christ, never came tofaith.
And so I was like, Kristen, it'sso disappointing that Joseph
wasted this opportunity, thisone most powerful restoration
event, that he wasted it andsaid, the reason I know this was
God and Christ is because I sawthem and I heard them.
Like, that's not, that's like,obviously what he should have
said was, I felt the Holy Ghost.
(30:11):
The Holy Ghost burnt it into mysoul, right?
Because that's how thescriptures teach us.
We can only learn truth throughrevelation and through the
Spirit.
And I'm like, Joseph, what awasted opportunity.
Why did you, no, really?
Like it bothered me all thetime.
And then I said, Kristen, as Iwas studying this morning, I was
studying this story.
And after many years of me notliking this, the Lord answered
(30:32):
me and taught me in pure wisdom,the most powerful thing I've
ever heard.
I said, well, let me read it toyou real quick.
And she's like, sure.
So I pulled open Joseph Smithhistory and it said this.
The power of the catacombovercome him when he started to
pray, and it said this.
It, the dark power, no soonerappeared than I found myself
(30:53):
delivered from the enemy whichheld me bound.
When the light rested upon me, Isaw two personages, see there's
the saw, whose brightness andglory defy all description.
Standing above me in the air,one of them spake unto me,
calling me by name, saying,pointing to the other, this is
my beloved son, hear him.
I was like, so Christen, I readthat this morning because I have
(31:14):
a million times and I focused inon the, I saw God, I heard God.
But this time in my humility andin my prayers, the words, the
following words jumped out at myheart with more power than
anything.
And it's when Joseph said this,when I saw the two personages,
their brightness and their glorydefied description.
(31:36):
And I said in my heart, whywould he even say that?
Well, first of all, why would itdefy description?
What do you think?
Why would it defy description?
What does that mean?
He can't describe it, right?
What does that mean?
Why would he say it defiesdescription?
SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
He can't find the words to describe what happened.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
But he did.
He tried brightness and glory.
But then he says those are weakwords.
That's what I kind of got out ofthat, right?
I don't know how to express whatI'm going to try and express
inadequately, which is I wasexperiencing brightness and I
was experiencing glory.
And the reason they defieddescription is because he was
(32:19):
having a spiritual revelation.
And the best words he couldpossibly think of were
brightness and glory.
If you look up in scripture whatthe definition of glory is, it's
this.
Glory is the outwardmanifestation of the presence of
God, which is Holy Ghost.
The presence of God is HolyGhost.
And when he said brightness,it's like that was just the best
(32:41):
word I could use to express whatwas happening in my soul.
It's not that he saw brightness.
He was experiencing brightness,which is love and peace.
And I looked at Kristen and Isaid, so Kristen, he really was
saying inadequate words and evenqualified it by saying it defies
description.
I can't describe what I'mexperiencing here.
(33:03):
But when he attempted to saybrightness and glory, he
literally there was saying theHoly Ghost is was confirming to
me that this is the Father andthe Son.
And so I looked at Kristen and Isaid, so Kristen, if Joseph
Smith, through brightness andglory or the power of the Holy
Ghost or revelation, knows thatJesus Christ lives and God the
Father lives, then I know justas powerfully as he does.
(33:27):
And I looked at her and guesswhat?
She was crying.
And I had her.
SPEAKER_01 (33:33):
Oh my
SPEAKER_00 (33:33):
gosh.
I had her at that point becausethen she looked at me and said,
well, If that's true, if that'sthe doctrine, she said, then I
also know that God lives becauseI have felt the brightness or
the glory.
She's like, I don't describe itthat way.
I've said it feels warm or itfeels joyful.
But if Joseph is expressing itin brightness and glory, we're
(33:56):
all talking about the same thingthat defies description.
Our mortal words can't describeit, but we're all talking about
the same thing, which isrevelation from God.
So now if I go back to thedefinition of faith, faith is
the substance of things hopedfor, the evidence of things not
seen.
So could Joseph have been blindin that experience and had the
(34:18):
same powerful conviction thatthat was God the Father and
Jesus Christ, do you think?
SPEAKER_01 (34:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:24):
Why?
SPEAKER_01 (34:26):
Because he wasn't relying on...
his senses.
Like he wasn't relying on hiseyes to be like, Oh, I saw God
check.
Like he's real.
I saw Jesus Christ check.
He's real.
I mean, you just spent like 10minutes talking about it.
Like he felt a confirmation andhe felt the Holy ghost
confirming that it truly washeavenly father and his son,
(34:47):
Jesus Christ.
And you don't need your eyes tofeel the Holy ghost.
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
So how perfect is Hebrews one 11 or 11 one
defining faith as it's asubstance, right?
When I feel the Holy Ghost, Ican't see it or feel it or touch
it or hear it.
But there's somethingsubstantive in my soul.
There's something really there.
Something's happening.
Like something is present.
(35:13):
Something is powerful.
So I love that it says now faithis the substance of something
that I'm just, I hope it'sthere, right?
But it's the evidence of thingsnot seen.
It's more evidence than if I sawit or heard it or touched it.
The evidence that is unseen isthe Holy Ghost.
That's the Holy Ghost.
So if the definition of faith isthat, then I'm claiming that
(35:38):
revelation is necessary in orderfor us to have faith.
That substance and that evidenceis revelation of the Holy Ghost.
So in order for me, oh, by theway, the story ended very, very
well, because guess what?
We dated and we dated and we gotmarried.
Now, 26 years later, We're likeparadise on earth.
(36:00):
It's heaven on earth.
SPEAKER_01 (36:01):
I love
SPEAKER_00 (36:01):
Kristen.
She is an angel.
She's perfect person.
So yeah, that story taught me.
Oh my goodness.
So as a missionary, then youlisteners, your goal as a
missionary, again, is to leadsouls to Christ.
Okay.
How do you lead souls to Christ?
Faith, repentance, baptism, thegift of the Holy ghost.
Okay.
How do I lead someone to faith?
UNKNOWN (36:23):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:24):
What you do is you help them receive revelation.
Now, Lauren, there were certain,you had said in the beginning,
what would you say?
Something about an action,something of action, like it
causes us to act.
I don't remember what you said.
SPEAKER_01 (36:36):
Revelation leads us to act.
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
Is that what you said?
I think so.
So what are the things that, onyour mission, that best, what
are the best ways to helpsomeone receive revelation,
which then leads to faith,repentance, baptism, and get the
Holy Ghost?
SPEAKER_01 (36:54):
The invitations, you extend them, which is some of
the most important.
Reading their scriptures,specifically the Book of Mormon.
Praying, going to church.
SPEAKER_00 (37:06):
And that's the fascinating thing, that if I can
help my friends or myinvestigators keep commitments,
I invite them, and if I can helpthem keep commitments to do
those three things, those threethings, not me, not the church,
not anything else, but thosethree activities are will invite
the Spirit or revelation intotheir hearts.
(37:27):
And when they experience it,their faith grows.
And guess what happens whentheir faith grows?
SPEAKER_01 (37:33):
They're converted.
SPEAKER_00 (37:34):
Yes, because they repent.
And then they get baptized andreceive the gift of the Holy
Ghost.
SPEAKER_01 (37:39):
Hey, and a little Preach My Gospel shout-out.
Chapter 11, all about extendingcommitments and helping your
friends keep them.
If you can study...
This is my witness.
Let me show you all.
But if you...
can study and learn from chapter11 of Preach My Gospel, if you
can find out the best way toextend commitments, you will
(38:01):
become an effective missionaryfast.
SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
Nice.
SPEAKER_01 (38:04):
You will not waste any time with those who are not
keeping commitments.
SPEAKER_00 (38:08):
Why?
Because what does keepingcommitments do?
SPEAKER_01 (38:10):
It helps people prepare to be baptized.
SPEAKER_00 (38:12):
Yeah, because what becomes before baptism is
repentance.
In order for them to repent,they have to have faith.
And in order to have faith, theyhave to receive revelation
through the Holy Ghost.
And the way that you help themdo that is you invite them to
feast upon the words of Christ,to pray and pray and pray and
ask for revelation and to get tochurch.
When they do those things, whenthey come to church and they
witness, I love the scripture inthe D&C that says, the power of
(38:36):
godliness is manifest in theordinances of the priesthood.
So whenever there's an ordinanceof the priesthood happening, the
opportunity to feel the presenceof God or revelation of the Holy
Ghost is there.
Well, if we invite them tochurch and they see the
ordinance of sacrament, thepower of godliness will be
manifest if they're looking forit.
(38:56):
Oh, it's so good, dude.
It's so powerful.
This is the secret of doingmissionary work.
Invite them to do these threethings.
That will lead them torevelation and their faith will
grow.
Then they'll repent and come tobaptism.
It's so great.
It's so great.
Let me give you a little furtherevidence of this principle.
Matthew 16, 13 to 17.
When Jesus came unto the coastsof Caesarea Philippi, he asked
(39:19):
his disciples, saying, Who domen say that I, the Son of Man,
am?
And they said, Some say thatthou art John the Baptist.
Some say you're Elias, andothers, Jeremias, or one of the
other prophets.
And then Christ said unto them,Whom say ye that I am?
And Simon Peter answered andsaid, thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God.
(39:39):
And here's what Jesus answered.
He said unto him, Blessed artthou, Simon Barjona, for flesh
and blood hath not revealed itto thee, but my Father which is
in heaven.
What do you think that means?
SPEAKER_01 (39:53):
I mean, the same as what you're talking about,
Joseph Smith.
It wasn't that he saw JesusChrist.
It wasn't through his flesh andblood that he knew that it was
the Christ.
It's because he received theconfirmation that it was.
SPEAKER_00 (40:06):
How powerful is that?
Yeah.
It doesn't matter that we'rewalking and talking with Christ,
Peter.
The Holy Ghost that is burnt onyour soul, God's existence and
the Savior's existence, is whatgives you the knowledge and the
wisdom and the happiness thatJesus lives.
What a powerful, powerfulprinciple.
(40:26):
Any thoughts on this?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's
SPEAKER_01 (40:35):
just so good.
It's so clear.
It
SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
really is.
It's so clear and it's so good.
I'll tell you, you know what?
I think this is a perfect placeto end, right?
Instead of going into adifferent story, I've got a
couple here, but keep listeningto the podcast, you guys,
because we're just going to keepbringing stories and experiences
that confirm and verify allthese ideas and principles.
(40:59):
And today, I think our purposewas to just introduce this
principle to you that revelationis what leads to conversion.
And man, if you can understandthis, you will be an effective
missionary.
But before you can be aneffective missionary, guess
what?
All of you listeners, you 16,17, 18-year-old, 19-year-old
(41:20):
youth, you also have to followthis process in order for you to
come to Christ.
I don't care that we've beenborn and raised in the church.
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
That doesn't mean anything.
SPEAKER_00 (41:32):
It doesn't.
Because if you don't comethrough the process of feasting
on the words of Christ andpraying for answers and
participating in the ordinanceof the priesthood with real true
intent, then you won't feel orrecognize the Holy Ghost, which
then your faith doesn't grow,which then you'll never be led
to repent yourself, which thenmeans your covenants don't
(41:55):
really exist.
That's a harsh thing to say,right?
Yeah.
UNKNOWN (42:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
How would you edit me or correct that?
No, I
SPEAKER_01 (42:06):
wouldn't say anything.
SPEAKER_00 (42:06):
You're not going to say anything?
SPEAKER_01 (42:09):
I can say your covenants can't justify you.
SPEAKER_00 (42:11):
Without faith and repentance, those are the
requirements on your end.
That's what you commit to do.
So if you don't have faith andrepentance, what good is your
baptism?
Yeah, I know.
That's controversial to say,right?
SPEAKER_01 (42:24):
It's true, though.
And I will say, I know yousaid...
thoughts and i said nothing butsomething just came i love the
way that literally when you sayfaith is the foundation of
everything like it is thefoundation of everything and i
was thinking it's true that wereceive revelation according to
(42:46):
our faith
SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
yeah yeah
SPEAKER_01 (42:48):
so if i'm they're intertwined right okay yeah i
mean it's just like a huge likecircle that just like keeps on
What's that, like an electriccircuit, how it just keeps going
and going and going around?
It is, yeah.
Like, say I'm reading myscriptures on a Tuesday morning,
and I have this question, andI'm kind of just—
SPEAKER_00 (43:07):
Wait, what time is it?
Because that's an interestingdetail that it's a Tuesday.
What time?
SPEAKER_01 (43:11):
8.42.
Okay,
SPEAKER_00 (43:13):
keep going.
In the morning, a.m.
Now I understand the story.
Okay, cool.
Keep going.
SPEAKER_01 (43:16):
Say—oh, this is just hypothetical.
It's not an actual story.
Don't worry.
But say I'm reading— Tuesday at
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
8.45, got
SPEAKER_01 (43:24):
it.
42 okay sorry
SPEAKER_00 (43:25):
um
SPEAKER_01 (43:29):
say i'm just reading the book of mormon and i just
reading it to read it reading itbecause my mission president
told me reading to reading itbecause i know i should and i i
want something out of it but idon't have the faith that i'll
actually receive anything
SPEAKER_00 (43:44):
nice
SPEAKER_01 (43:44):
i'm not gonna receive anything awesome yeah
great point like the I alwaystalked about this in the field,
but the intention that you placebehind every action matters.
SPEAKER_00 (43:57):
And let me bring in the other side and show how
they're entwined.
When I truly was like faced togo on a mission, I was like, my
life's pretty good.
I'm not sure if, you know, Isaid, well, there's, I've been
told if I'll just pray, I'll geta revelation.
And if I get revelation that I'mgoing and I'll be a good
missionary.
So I decided without anypreparation, without any work,
without any reading thescriptures or serving other
(44:19):
people or I would just go andask God, hey, do you exist?
Tell me you exist, and Christlives, and the church is true,
and the Book of Mormon's real,and I'll go on a mission.
And so I went up and prayed.
Nothing.
I didn't get revelation.
I didn't get the Spirit.
I didn't get anything.
You know why?
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
How do you say nothing in Russian?
SPEAKER_00 (44:35):
Ничего.
SPEAKER_01 (44:36):
Ничего.
SPEAKER_00 (44:37):
Вообще ничего.
But you know why I didn't getanything?
SPEAKER_01 (44:42):
Why?
SPEAKER_00 (44:43):
Because I wasn't exercising any faith unto the
words.
I wasn't reading.
I wasn't doing anything.
Faith, the principle of action,wasn't applied at all.
So I liked your point that faithand revelation are like this
intertwined, important firststep.
And it emphasizes more that thisprinciple is true, that
revelation leads to faith,repentance, baptism, and get the
(45:05):
Holy Ghost.
Because it wasn't until I wentback down off that mountain and
started to exercise a littlefaith by opening up the
scriptures and reading them andserving other people, like I
started just this little seedsof faith.
Then the answers came to thequestions that I asked up on
that mountain.
But not until I had a little bitof faith.
But like you said, when thatHoly Ghost came, that first time
(45:28):
that I really recognized it,man, did my faith grow.
And then I wanted more.
And I would apply more faith andread more scripture and pray
more and serve more.
And then more revelation wouldcome.
And it just rolls and rolls androlls.
That brought to mind one morequick story.
Okay, I was in the MTC.
And Man, I wish I could find,one of my teachers, her name was
(45:50):
Sister Wrencher.
And I wish I could find herbecause she is amazing, man.
Changed my life.
And she had this really uniquelook.
Really, really, like we all,she's an attractive girl, so we
all liked her.
But she had this haircut whereher bangs, like super straight
hair, kind of to her shoulders alittle bit, but her bangs were
like almost covering her eyesand just cut straight across.
(46:12):
So super straight.
It almost reminded me of aMuppet a little bit.
A little bit.
A little bit.
And she also had very tan skinand this just huge smile.
And so I picture in my mind, I'ma designer, I'm an illustrator.
So I picture in this mind, this,this, this Muppet hair with this
just huge smile face.
And that's it.
That's all I see.
Just this big smile.
(46:32):
I've drawn the picture manytimes before.
Anyway, Sister Wrencher, all notimportant.
Sister Wrencher, one day we'rein the MTC and she was teaching
us and we were going through theBook of Mormon and we were all
just kind of going through theroutine and following along,
participating.
It was good, really good.
And she gets to a point in thirdNephi where Christ has come to
the people and she startsreading and she's reading and
reading.
And then she slows down a littlebit and I'm following along.
(46:54):
I'm remembering, oh, this issuch good stuff.
This is very powerful.
And when she got to one point,she stopped and she said,
everyone close your eyes and letme read that again.
She's like, seriously, everyoneclose your eyes.
So we all, I closed my eyes.
She read it again.
And then she said for the firsttime, no one had ever done this
to me before.
She said for the first time,someone had said this to me in
(47:15):
my life.
She says, Do you feel that?
Elder Record, do you feel thatright now?
When I say these words ofChrist, she says, that is the
Holy Ghost.
And immediately I turned mythoughts inward and went, oh,
that is the Holy Ghost.
Like I'm recognizing it andfeeling it now.
(47:35):
And my mind, like in a movie,like flashed back over my whole
life at all the different timesthat I had recognized the Holy
Ghost.
I remember being in the parkinglot of Disneyland for the first
time, holding the hands of myparents, walking in the park of
Disneyland.
I was so happy, but that was theHoly Ghost testifying of
Disneyland.
(47:55):
No, testifying that I was withmy family.
I remembered like 15 otherevents in my life and I was
like, my goodness, at the time Ididn't recognize that that was
the Holy Ghost because SisterWrencher just now identified it
for me or helped me identify it.
I now know exactly what thosewere.
And moving forward in my life,The rest of my life, I now know
(48:16):
how to identify it.
The reason I bring that up isbecause as a missionary, if
revelation leads to faith,repentance, baptism, and get the
Holy Ghost or conversion, if youcan become good at inviting,
like you said, chapter 11,invite people to do the things
that invite revelation.
But if you can also be good athelping them identify it, that's
(48:36):
the spirit.
That's the Holy Ghost.
Their faith will grow all themore because it's based in this
revelation from God.
powerful idea help othersidentify the Holy Ghost pretty
cool
SPEAKER_01 (48:51):
and people think all the time oh wait I don't know
how to like I don't know how tohelp people identify the Holy
Ghost whatever because maybe Ifeel it differently or I don't
feel it the you know the Lordpromises that the Spirit will be
with us to confirm truth rightso as long as you're keeping
your covenants it's promised tobe with you and so in those
(49:12):
moments where you feel that Andmaybe you don't feel it, but you
know that you're testifying of atruth.
You literally can just say, hey,this in the room right now, like
the fact that you know this istrue, that's the Holy Ghost
confirming it to you.
Like this is the Holy Ghost.
When I started doing that, whenI started being able to help my
(49:32):
friends recognize what the HolyGhost was and, you know, telling
them there's more than one wayto feel it and whatnot, that's
when I started seeing success as
SPEAKER_00 (49:42):
a missionary.
Fascinating.
Fascinating.
And sometimes the feeling of theHoly Ghost, no, not sometimes,
all the time, requires faith.
Right?
This intertwined idea of faithand revelation is so powerful to
understand.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (49:57):
I mean, it's like a principle of almost everything
in life.
I was thinking about it.
Like, I'm a 32 comparing it to aseed and to a seed growing.
Like, one day if I want to be asbig and strong as Sean Record,
but I never go to the gym or Inever...
you know, do all the thingsthat, that he does to be big and
strong.
(50:18):
Like I'm never going to getthere.
Like if I'm driving in the carand I get a flat tire, but I
never get out of the car to fixit, I'm not going anywhere.
My car's not getting fixed.
I'm not getting to mydestination.
Like every, you can apply faithto every single aspect of life.
And it just makes sense toconfirm and like reconfirm and
reconfirm this idea that youneed to act and If you want, if
(50:42):
you want to have strong faith,like I remember I teach this
lesson all the time because someof our friends wouldn't keep
their commitments or whatever.
And I wouldn't say straight totheir face, like, Oh, you don't
have faith, but kind of alongthe lines of that, I'll be like,
so what do you believe in?
SPEAKER_00 (50:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:59):
And they, you know, kind of give me this like little
answer, whatever.
But then I'd be like, You dorealize, and I kind of explained
this principle, that faith is aprinciple of action and power.
And they'd recognize, okay,well, my faith's not going
anywhere if I'm not doinganything.
And I had one friend at onepoint, and he was like, We can't
(51:26):
just lay back and relax and...
like wait for like our faith togrow, right?
To feel this faith grow.
Because you don't sit back andhave your faith grow.
You have to actively pursue it.
You have to actively cultivateit.
SPEAKER_00 (51:43):
Do the things that Jesus Christ taught us will grow
our faith.
Serve other people, read andfeast upon his words, pray
constantly, be a part of theordinances, right?
These things, sing hymns, singpraises of God.
There was one point on mymission where me and my
companion were like, All we'redoing here is helping them feel
and then identify the HolyGhost.
(52:05):
And so if they're not keepingcommitments, let's go a level
deeper.
We literally, with the beginningof each one, say, hey, this is
going to be really awkward andembarrassing for all of us in
this room, but would you mind?
Did you
SPEAKER_01 (52:14):
sing?
SPEAKER_00 (52:15):
I said, would you mind if we sang you a song?
I've done that before.
And these Ukrainians, theseex-Soviet Ukrainians look at us
like, what?
You want to sing to us?
And they'd be like, sure.
And guess what?
Every single time when we endedand I looked at them and said,
how does that make you feelinside?
(52:36):
All of them were shocked andwent, actually, it feels really
lovely.
Like there's something nice inthere.
Lovely.
And it wasn't my singing.
It was the fact that we had justsaid the word Jesus Christ or,
you know, we were singing hymns,right?
And the Spirit always came in.
And we were like, oh mygoodness.
We can embarrass ourselves insinging hymn, and it invites the
spirit to the point where we canidentify it for them or help
(52:57):
them identify it.
And that always started off themeeting so spiritually.
I love it.
It's so good.
Okay, well, this was a gooddiscussion.
Thanks for joining us, you guys,on the podcast.
Our challenge, I guess, would bethis.
You have to seek your ownrevelation, and you do that by
taking action, faithful action.
(53:18):
Start with feasting upon thewords of Christ.
Start with asking God the Fatherif he lives.
Ask if Christ lives.
Ask if the scriptures are true,if Joseph's a prophet, if
President Nelson's a prophet.
But do it with all your heart,mind, and strength.
And I promise you, you willreceive the Holy Ghost through
revelation, and this will growyour faith.
(53:43):
joining me.
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