Dannielle Miller OAM: domestic violence prevention masterclass

A masterclass in how individuals & workplaces can identify, support and prevent domestic violence with leading expert Dannielle Miller. 

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
This show discusses sensitive material relating to mental
health, which some people may find triggering.
If anything is distressing, please reach out for help.
All right, we're on it. Something settles, welcome back.

(00:47):
You beautiful animals to anotherepisode of the Mitch Wallace
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We have a range of programs thatwill help you speak about how
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I've authored it. If you want to support the
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So you just go to heart on my sleeve dot-org.
And there's a ton of resources there that you can engage with
this episode is also bought to you by calm water.
That's a supplement that my co-founder and I developed
because I was looking for the ultimate relaxation supplement
and I couldn't find it anywhere on the market.
I wanted something that had the writing.

(01:54):
Radians at the right amount thatwas taken in drink form as
opposed to a pill or tablet thatfelt really clinical.
And I also wanted something thatwould take the edge off, without
putting me to sleep, which is what we call functional
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product. If you want to know more and buy
a pack, go to calm water.org that's see Alm.

(02:19):
Wate r dot org and get yourself a packet.
And today's guest, I'm incredibly stoked to have on
board. Her name is Daniel Miller, she's
freaking awesome. She's the leading expert in
domestic and Family Violence. This episode is the ultimate
education, especially for men inhow to be a male Ally.

(02:43):
But is also incredibly relevant to women who may or may not be
experiencing domestic. Violence situations.
Why I wanted to interview Danielle is because the rain Of
DVR just so alarmingly high and I wanted to learn more and I
wanted to play my small role in helping to eradicate.

(03:04):
This, I don't want to use the word epidemic or pandemic
because it's so overused at the moment.
But when you when you hear the numbers which you will, in this
episode, you will just feel compelled to want to make a
difference. And we need all the help we can
get in eliminating this from oursociety, Danielle is Is an OE M

(03:25):
Medal winner. So for those that aren't
Australian or a familiar with the order of Australia medal,
it's kind of the ultimate recognition that we have here
for outstanding achievement and service.
It was established by Queen Elizabeth, the second.
And Daniel has received the art for her service to women,

(03:47):
education and youth. She's also the Director of
Education and special projects at Women's Community shelters.
She created the walk and talk program for schools and also now
running in corporates which is delivered to the likes of KPMG
she's presented at the Sydney Opera house twice.
She's the co-founder of enlightened education.
Australia's leading provider of in-school.

(04:09):
Workshops 14, since 2003 she's aparenting expert and gets called
on her advice on national television programs for many
years and she's authored five books.
What you'll learn is pretty mucheverything you'll need.
To know around the stats and figures for domestic and Family
Violence the warning signs. And what to look out for, in

(04:30):
someone who might be going through it, how to support
someone, when they're in that, what to do.
If you see this happening and also what to do, if you see
yourself in any of these things and as I refer to in the episode
for men, I really, really encourage you put the pride in
the shame and the guilt away andlet this message in as much.

(04:54):
As you can, if all you can do isbecome a one percent better man
or a 1% better person as a result of this episode.
Then our mission has been achieved for this hour.
I'd also like to flag a few support numbers.
If any of this is triggering andor relevant to you that includes
1-800 respect one eight hundred seven three seven seven three,

(05:17):
two cue life 1-800 1845 27, kidshelpline for Anyone 25 and under
1-800 55 1-800 and men's referral service, 13 hundred
seven, six, six, four, nine one.And of course, women's Community
shelters dot org. Dot a you, which Danielle is a

(05:37):
big part of a lot of those resources are Australian.
So if you're not based in this country, I would encourage you
to Google and research and look out for any resources in your
local area, that can provide youthe support that you deserve.
So with that, I'd like to Welcome Danielle and as always
go slow, go strong one moment ata time.

(06:00):
We are all on the journey you feeling out of 10.
This morning, I'll give myself asolid 7 which I'm okay with what
about you? I would give myself an 8.5
today. That's nice.
And I like the preciseness of this I know.

(06:22):
Well, I feel like reflecting on On the state of your mind,
often, man, I do it way too much.
I think, but the scale out of 10, gives it a little bit of
softness as opposed to like, oh,am I feeling low or gloomy
Ababa? What do you think your life?
Average out of 10 has been mood-wise?

(06:43):
I think. I am very fortunate to be a 8.5
2009. Yeah I am just I am an optimist
and Do you have a strong sense of my own capabilities?
My own resilience and a strong sense that I can make change?
Which is probably why I choose to work in some fairly dark

(07:05):
areas and they don't get me down.
I actually feel really inspired by the work.
Yeah, I can't wait to talk aboutthe work, Danny, the work being
well, let's talk about my intention for this talk.
Good. So as I told you on the call,
before we got on here, I was made aware by a friend of mine

(07:26):
that domestic and Family. Violence has been on the rise
post covid. And during covid, we saw an
enormous Spike and for me that was really unsettling because
never is it acceptable, but I could get some type of inside
and at least peace the puzzles together in understanding this

(07:48):
evil being like, okay, everyone's indoors together.
There's some conflict and nothing makes this right.
That hopefully it's going to go away after, and when it didn't
go away, that made me think. Wow, I feel a huge sense of
responsibility to learn and hearfrom experts, like yourself to

(08:08):
try and Empower more male allyship.
So that it very least, we don't make the problem worse and it
very best. We can do what we can, to
eradicate and end up in a world with 0% family and domestic
violence. So, My job is to listen and be
curious today. And if at any point I don't I'm

(08:31):
not like that. You can tell me.
I just need you to stop and listen, which I think is
probably going to be one of yourmessages today is stop and
listen I would imagine it will be can I provide you some
context for some of the love context?
Yeah, so some of the situation you just described actually you
are quite right that we saw dramatic increase in domestic

(08:52):
and Family Violence during covid-19.
Lockdown. And some of the reason that for
that is simply that people couldn't escape.
So often, we might find our workplaces are really are safe
place, are we visiting our friends, we visiting our family,
we visiting our Sports Club. So all of that was stripped away
from people and as you rightly said, you know, there was this
pressure cooker environment, we had people who were really

(09:13):
financially insecure, we know that drinking dramatically
increased during that time things like gambling increased.
So that's what caused the dramatic rise or some of the
reasons of But for that dramaticrise, that we saw during covid
time. And in fact, just recently, a
survey came out two weeks ago that indicated that in New South
Wales alone. Each during that it's covid.

(09:35):
Lockdowns in 2020, 40,000 people, a sorry, 60,000 women
experience domestic violence forthe first time?
60,000 miles alone in 20/20 Experience, domestic violence in
their homes for the first time. A third of 45% are sorry. 5000

(09:55):
actually found the violence, they were already experiencing
escalated during that period. So you're right that it was on
the rise but what was challenging for organizations?
Like the one that I work with women's Community shelters is
that, of course, we couldn't access people, they couldn't
call us, but he'll they couldn'treach out because the
perpetrator was in the home. So, actually, during those

(10:17):
covid, lockdowns, we did receivesome course for support and
women wanting to flee, their homes to stay, And they were, of
course, covid exceptions. So, that, that could happen.
But actually, we didn't have dramatic increase in people
wanting to come to our shouldersbecause they just couldn't
access the service. So, why we're now seeing an
increase isn't necessarily that the violence in has increased?

(10:40):
Its that the reporting is now a possible that women are now in a
position where they can reach out and they can access support
services and say, hey, I've beenexperiencing is to our last few
years. I need to break a break here or
how do I how do I move on safe? Flee.
Yeah. Okay, so it is that there's been
an underbelly of problem for a long time but since covid has

(11:04):
passed in there in more of a safe space to be able to report
that effectively we're seeing the numbers represent reality.
Yeah, correct. Something that you just said
then you know really resonates with me when you said that that
we've had high rates of domesticand Family Violence for a long
time in Australia and we so have.
And I find that personally enraging You know, I remember

(11:26):
sitting there one of the many jobs that I've had over the
years has been to be a newspapercolumnist and I used to write
for the Daily Telegraph for three years on a Saturday.
And I found myself sitting thereone day about to write yet.
Another column about a woman whohad lost her life at the hands
of a man who wants profess to love her.
And I felt uncharacteristically for me, no optimism.

(11:49):
I just felt fury like this blinding rage and also despair
which is an And I usually experience thinking we are
talking about this constantly and nothing is changing, you
know, we need to move Beyond talk and as is often the case,
when you have these realizationsthe universe conspired for me to
not just talk about this for to act on it.

(12:10):
And so I saw in my local papers that there was going to be a
meeting in our community with the aim of establishing a
shelter for women and children fleeing violence.
So I went across to that meetingput my hands up and joined and
helped. On The Refuge, in my local area,
called The Sanctuary, which is now been open for five years.
And for me, you know, that was areally profound thing to move

(12:34):
from the emotion that perhaps some of your listeners are
experiencing to action on the issue.
And I think I know we're going to talk more, and I'm probably
jumping the gun a little bit, but if I can have one key
message that people, listen to us, we'll take it.
Is that? Here it is.
Sit in this This but please act on this, you know, do something

(12:59):
positive and constructive because I am an optimist and I
believe that we can make changesand we just have to do.
The statistics is so damning that we have to look at this
with a more critical lands and with a lens towards change.
Yes, I totally agree. And one of the reasons why

(13:21):
things don't change is that people get stuck in.
Name. Yes, shame is an emotion that
has good intention. It's designed to keep our
behavior in line with the socialtribe that we are living in.
However, just like all medicine being poisoned.
Depending on the dosage, Shane can be the cloak that binds us

(13:45):
to a narrative that's too painful to move away from.
So if for example a male is listing to this and as we get
into some of the more All thingsaround.
Well, what is it and have you done it before?
And what do you do about it? I think a lot of men go all, I
think, I see, even a little bit of myself in some of what you're

(14:05):
explaining and that's going to bring up a lot of Shame and
guilt and therefore I'm going togo.
No, that's not me. Deny deny, deny you're wrong.
You're the problem. And then we're going to get
further in. So my asked particularly for men
listening to this today is let whatever emotions need to hit
here but don't let it Keep you where you are, what it what can

(14:27):
you do to make yourself one percent, more of a safe, man and
a male Ally, then what you are before listening to this, and
what I also will cave yet, so the people don't tune out
straight away and I want your opinion on this.
I've heard a lot of men asked me.
Why is it that the world is trying to make us less

(14:48):
masculine? Why are they trying to soften us
up to the point of being feminine?
And my response is, I think the world is trying to make us more
masculine, but qualities, in which we need to get there,
like, courage and vulnerability.The strongest things you can do
is act. Even when you're scared, they

(15:10):
are typically called feminine. But it's Actually incredibly
Brave. So what do you think we can do
to help men be fully masculine, but also be safe.
That's a really complex questionand you hit on a lot of things
that I would that sort of flagged conversations that I'd
want to have with you. Firstly, I do get really

(15:34):
frustrating when men are cup about this issue and use
phrases. Like, you know, why are they
trying to change us or what, whyare they questioning us?
Or Not all men, you know, to me,those kind of disclaimers really
missed the mark because, of course, it's not all men, you
know? And of course there's nothing
wrong with Masculinity as such, but the elements of masculinity

(15:59):
that are harming males in their relationships with women are
also harming males in their relationship with themselves and
with each other. Right?
So when it comes to physical violence, for example we know in
Australia that males are actually more likely than
females to experience physical violence.
Statistically one into males in Australia, will experience

(16:20):
physical violence in their lifetime and one in three.
Females. But he's the key difference.
Mitch when males experience, physical violence in over 90% of
cases, the perpetrator is another male, you know, the 90%
of cases when women experience physical violence, the
perpetrator is a current, or former lover.

(16:41):
And when males experience, physical violence is usually in
a public place. So, at a nightclub at a sporting
match coming home from an event.When females experience physical
violence in over, sixty percent of cases it happens.
As in their own home, right? Which should be there, safe
place. Yeah.
So I don't think it does mean any favors to bury their head in

(17:01):
the sand and say there's nothingto see here.
We don't have any problems, you know, we do if you look at the
impact of the patriarchy becausethat's what it is.
It's not mean it's patriarchal beliefs which we need to
question, not masculine beliefs.You know the patriarchy says two
men don't express emotion. Don't express, fun ability.
Don't cry. Well what price do our Pay for

(17:24):
that, we have high suicide rates.
We have high depression, anxietyproblem, making relationships.
So those beliefs aren't serving males either, and we need to
really question and call this out.
Now, I remember is my son sayingto me once it's really
frustrating Mom, when people sort of go on Not all men.
Because when I hear things aboutMen Behaving Badly, I don't take

(17:46):
it personally because I know they're not talking about me.
I've never done those things, but I know that guys like that,
do exist. I see.
See them all the time in my classroom in my workplace, you
know. So the first thing that I think
that men need to do is to be honest and open about looking at
these issues and realizing, no one's personal me.

(18:09):
Questioning them, what we are questioning is patriarchal
believes that don't serve them any longer.
I agree. What, what I find interesting is
understanding where do we get our understanding of what being
a good men, man? Looks like yeah.

(18:30):
Where did that come from? Where did that originate?
Is it true helpful and accurate?Is it serving where we want to
take the male image moving forward?
Yeah and so what in your opinionis a strong man it's What about
physical strength or that alpha male thing?
What the six-pack it's really about moral courage.

(18:51):
It's really about the courage todo what's right?
Even if no one's watching, or if, as you say it, scares you,
it's really about the strength to be yourself to live
authentically, to me. That's genuine strength, and
it's admirable. And it's something that we need
more of what I've been loving doing my work with young young

(19:12):
people. So when I work for women's
Community shelters, I work in the education space.
Which is probably why I managed to remain fairly optimistic
about change. Because I see the best.
I see the best of young lunacy, the best of young men and the
boys we work with. You know, they want to be part
of a change. They want to question these
beliefs that don't serve them and don't serve relationship and

(19:33):
they want to be told how to do things better because you're
right. The scripts we've been fed from
a young age have been incrediblydamaging.
I mean, this is look for a moment, you know, simplistically
at the story of T & the Beast. What does that?
Tell us about relationship. Mitch, we are told that beauty
actually named because what elseshould a female be other than a
decorative object, is virtually kidnapped by the beast from

(19:57):
taken from her family, Force into his castle, where she'll
cook and clean and hang out withcandles, and it's her job to
love him despite his rage, despite his beastly Behavior to
see past that abuse, and if she can, you'll be transformed into
the Some prints. You know, what a destructive

(20:18):
message about the nature of relationships and about the
nature of the females role in a relationship with a partner
who's abusive? You know, we are not your
therapy, you know where? Yeah.
And I think for both Partners ina relationship.
What's an important psychological Point here.
Is that projecting all of your insecurities onto your partner

(20:43):
that you haven't already dealt with is not okay.
Whether that be a woman unto a man, and man onto a woman or
non-binary of course as well. But opting out of doing the hard
work and introspectively going, hey, where could I show up

(21:03):
better? Where am I creating unnecessary
conflict? Where am I insecure?
And that's rubbing people the wrong way and actually, harming
others. I think that's an oath that we
need to take to be strong and soul.
Like, you know, speaking as a man, I think a strong man has
the balls to go toward hard topics that make you feel

(21:26):
uncomfortable with a sense of openness and I want to do
better. Yeah, agreed.
And we have to do better, as I said, I mean, statistics on.
OK. And there is definitely a
gendered pattern to violence andabuse, so it's definitely true.
That males can be victims survivors as well.

(21:46):
So when it comes from, Focus forexample, we know one in seven,
males will report emotional abuse in their relationship, one
in four females, when it comes to sexual abuse, one in twenty
two, males one in five females, it's important to note though,
when it comes to sexual abuse ofmales, you know, the 90% of
cases. The perpetrator is another male.
So there are gendered patterns of abuse that we need to call

(22:07):
out and question. And there are definitely ways in
which we've been raised, which we need to question and to
reconsider, and to create new knowledge.
Narratives for and we do need todo the work on ourselves.
When we come into a relationship, not expect our
partner to fix us or to be responsible for how we manage
our own mood. But we need to question beyond

(22:29):
that to, you know, structures and systems that reinforce power
dynamics, that reinforce privilege and open up that
discussion and it isn't just also as you sort of alluded to.
This isn't just also a straight issue.
You know, one of the things that's really interesting.
Seeing, which is that. So often in Australia, our
conversation around domestic andFamily.

(22:51):
Violence seems to have these heteronormative base where we
assume that it's to heterosexualcouples.
But we know that actually members of the lgbtq I our
community are just as likely to experience relationship abuse.
And so we need to be really open.
Yes, we need to be really open to that conversation.
In fact members of the trans Community are more likely to

(23:12):
experience relationship abuse. So we need to make sure that in
our discussions As we're really inclusive and we understand that
this can happen to anyone regardless of gender.
Sexuality, importantly, regardless of where you live
post code regardless of socioeconomic backgrounds, and
that's been a super interesting thing for me in the last two

(23:33):
years working with corporates ata really senior level because I
do think sometimes we can assumewell this might be happening to
someone else somewhere else. Perhaps in those social
economically disadvantaged You know, over the hill, but not
here in my leafy middle class suburb, or in my powerful
boardroom, and that's not accurate at, all right?

(23:56):
So this can happen to anyone regardless of education and in
fact or all regardless of wealthand privilege.
And in fact, one of the things that was really interesting was
before, participants would come into my training sessions with
corporates, would ask them abouttheir lived experience.
With this issue. And on average, in every session

(24:18):
we found forty percent of peoplewould say, I haven't experienced
this personally and I don't knowanyone else that has but I'm
interested. That's why I'm here.
And which what was really fascinating?
Is that when I would go through and explain what are the signs?
What are the forms? The lights would go on and they
would realize oh wow, actually Ido know someone who's

(24:40):
experiencing this and in fact meitch.
I'm really proud of these because he says, literally
life-saving stuff. I know of at least two
participants, you have realized this is happening to me, right?
I knew my relationship was challenging, but I didn't fully
understand the extent of that orhave a name for this and I need

(25:02):
to get out and then they've beenable to go to their workplace
you know support systems are andwork out a plan work out a
safety plan. They had to remove themselves.
So your work is incredible and Ifeel very lucky that I get to
speak to you today. Particularly for this next part,

(25:22):
which is the, and this is where the rubber meets the road.
Yeah. What is domestic and Family
Violence to you? Yeah.
How can we see it in others and how do we know if we're
experiencing it? Ourself, brilliant questions.
And before I before I explain that to you, I want to also just
to mention for any of your listeners who I have lived

(25:44):
experience that they might find some of this content distressing
and if they do, I would really encourage them as I know you do
in your own sessions, to put on their own oxygen mask first
before thinking, about helping you someone else and reaching
out to support services. So can I just mention quickly?
Some of the support services, people might want to listen,
please. Okay, so you can call one eight

(26:06):
hundred respect, which is our national hotline, which supports
domestic Family, Violence, and sexual, abuse survivors of.
Both genders Q Life, which do excellent work with the lgbtqi
community. So if you're a member of that
Community you might really want to reach out to someone who is
also part of that Community. Who understands you because

(26:26):
relationship of beautiful impacton you in quite different ways
and I'll talk more about that ina minute kids helpline.
Now I know that might seem like a strange thing to call out, but
a lot of people don't realize they can take calls from young
people up to the age of 25. So they think it may be just a
little kids who are being bullied.
Isn't and they will have experienced relationship abuse

(26:46):
advisors as well. And of course there's a men's
referral service, so I don't want to read all of these
numbers out now. But perhaps you might be able to
add them on the screen or put them in your show notes or
something like that. Mitch and I'll send them to you
so that you can do that Italy. I will say too that when I'm
talking to you about this issue,I am speaking to you.

(27:08):
Someone who also has lived experience with this issue.
So I grew up in a home with a violent death.
Dad and I was also a victim of Family Violence.
When I was a little girl, I havethird-degree burns.
My great-grandmother bent knee and I know many of your
listeners of this, as I said, we'll have lived experience to.
But I am calling on the collective wisdom of many of the
survivors that I have had the great privilege of interviewing

(27:32):
and learning about their stories.
And we need to listen to them for so many reasons, one of the
reasons you use, as, you know, Mitch storytelling is how we
shift minds and hearts, right? You know, look at the impact
Rosie batty story had on a nation gray stained story.
So in creating my corporate program I was able to interview
about a dozen Professional Services Workers who are able to

(27:57):
share their stories with me. And I've done lots of feature
writing in the media. I've done two huge cover
features for body and soul magazine.
And so collectively, I've probably interviewed about 25
survivors of family and domesticviolence.
As I said, previously, you know,No, I've interviewed indigenous
young indigenous woman a woman with a disability.
These are groups that we know are at higher risk.

(28:20):
I've interviewed corporate women.
I've interviewed a very successful journalist who I
can't name women of color so this can happen to any of us.
But what are some of the forms of abuse that people experience
with some of them? We will know and will be really
familiar with things like physical abuse, and emotional
abuse, that name-calling that puddling putting down that

(28:41):
belittling and Said sticks and stones may break my bones but
words will never hurt. Me was an idiot because that
stuff can be so incredibly destructive.
I remember interviewing the amazing Roy Atma whose abuse
began when she was just 14 and she was in a refugee camp with
her family. They arranged for her to be

(29:02):
married to a much older man who bought it to Australia, and her
abuse began with the belittling the financial abuse, which I'll
talk about more in a minute, andit did escalate into quite
Stream physical violence. You know me, she shared with me
that sometimes the bruises heal,but those words, those phrases
that can sometimes become your inner voice and it can take

(29:24):
quite some work to heal and recover from.
So, we mustn't dismiss. That type of abuse perhaps is
not being as serious because it can be incredibly destructive
Financial abuse. I mentioned really quickly.
So if you're being financially, you've used your partner might
be controlling all of the incomeand they might only give you a
Allowance to spend or perhaps they'll go through an audit your

(29:47):
bank account and berate you. If you'd spent money on things
that they don't see it as valuable or important.
So, I mentioned a journalist, you know, she was earning very
good money as was her partner, yet he would go through her bank
account and if she'd spent over $15 on lunch, he would fly into
a fury and berate her. So she felt that she had no

(30:08):
Financial Independence. Even though she was earning good
money, if you're being financially, abused, It's your
partner is putting money on joint credit cards without
telling you about that, they might be gambling.
One of the women that I interviewed lost her entire home
because she hadn't realized quite how extreme her partner's
gambling problem was and found herself with two little twin

(30:29):
babies. You know, sleeping in a car and
sleeping on Friends, lounges. And she had been a middle-class
mum prior to that moment. Financial abuse might look like
your partner asking you to sign documents, and you don't really
understand what it is. That you're Off.
So you may end up with, you know, STD sexually transmitted a
sorry sexually, transmitted debtyou know that can be a part of

(30:51):
that there can be damage to property.
You know the punching walls, thethrowing things often
perpetrators will say but I've never actually hit her with that
but by gosh that is so terrifying, right?
That activates our entire flightfright, freeze response and it
can create this atmosphere of deep tension.

(31:13):
Action and uncertainty within the home, there might be sexual
abuse and this is important to recognize that this can and does
happen in relationship. There was a time not that long
ago, meet where it was actually quite legal to sexually assault
your partner. If you're married because it was
considered, then that well that's that's that's your wife.

(31:33):
You can have her body whenever you want to have her body.
But, of course, we know that's not true at all.
That all consent must be enthusiastic.
And if we've got time, I can talk to you about enthusiastic
consent. As well, digital abuse.
This is one. I see a lot with the teens I
work with. So this will be where your
partner might insist on having the passwords to all your social

(31:54):
media accounts, or they might dictate who you can and can't
interact with on socials or fly into a fury.
If they see someone commenting on one of your posts and you
might feel really nervous about that, it might be that they use
your phone to track you to see where you are at all times, or
they're texting you 20-30 times a day asking for updates.

(32:14):
So your phone really becomes there to love surveillance if
you like there's abuse to pets. So it can I say that in ninety
five percent of homes, where there is a pet and there is
relationship abuse. Then the partner will make
threats to that pet, you know, if you leave or kill the dog or
during a disagreement, they might threaten to kick an

(32:35):
animal. And if you're experiencing
relationship abuse, you know, often your pet will be a real
source of Solace for you and Andso that can be one of the many
reasons why those experiencing abuse might feel reluctant to
leave or scared to go. And then there's coercive
control. And this is such an important

(32:56):
one, which it's harder to sort of pin down.
If you have a quiz of their control partner, then there's a
pattern of them wanting to isolate you from others.
So they might not, you know, they might convince you that
your friends aren't good good for you to be around.
Or they're a bad influence or you shouldn't see your family
anymore because they are destructive.

(33:17):
And so you find that your world starts to shrink and you become
more and more in meshed with just this one particular person.
Again they might tell you what you can and can't wear who you
can and can't see where you can and can't work that you've got
to work from home, you can't go back to the office.
I have known coercively, controlling Partners to put up,
video cameras in the home, so they can watch their partner

(33:39):
while they're at work. You know, when they're with the
kids and one or two when they do.
And don't leave the house. The thing with coercive control
and what makes it so dangerous is that if you have a highly
controlling partner that actually has the highest
correlation with homicide, if you leave even if there's been
no physical violence before, right?

(33:59):
So we might have a woman who will come to our shelter and
we'll go through a list and try and ascertain what's been
happening and we might say to them.
Does your partner, tell you whatyou can and can't wear has your
partner ever told you that you can't see the ticular friends.
Did your part? Sure, ask track you or ask you
to report in on an app and so all of these are signs of a
course of the controlling partner and then they might say

(34:21):
that, you know, I can't live like this anymore.
I want to get away and we might say, do you think you'd be safe
to get away? And they might say, well, I
think so because they've never physically hurt me before and
we'll have to point out to them that the research shows in cases
where there's High coercive control that partner is likely
to explode if you try and break that control.

(34:43):
That's what we saw happen to Hannah Clark that beautiful
Queensland mum, who was murderedby her ex-husband, and who
wasn't murdered his own children.
He Set Fire to the car. They were all in and then took
his own life. He'd been highly, coercively,
controlling. He hadn't physically hit her
before. She didn't realize, you'd be so
risk when she was attempting to leave that relationship.

(35:05):
You might have a partner who gaslights you?
So, if your partner's gaslighting you, that's a form
of emotional manipulation, wherethey try and change the
Narrative. So they might say things to you.
Like, what do you mean, you know, I was awful to you last
night, you always exaggerate, you know, why do you want to
make trouble all the time? Or they might say to you if

(35:26):
perhaps, you have mental health issues but you taken your
medication because lately, you seem more anxious, I think you
really need to speak to your therapist.
You know, you're exaggerating how bad things are here or I
think you're getting paranoid. That type of gaslighting
behavior can be. So unsettling because you start
to question our, am I right? Am I the problem?

(35:48):
You know, and it can be really destructive.
So these are all forms of relationship.
Abuse domestic violence Family Violence and they tend to
correlate and they tend to escalate.
So, there might, it might begin with emotional abuse and then it
might ramp up and the coercive control may become more
dominant, and then there may be elements of physical.

(36:10):
Pieces. Well, they can also be would
reproductive abuse where your partner tells you what form of
contraception, you can and can'tuse, or if you get pregnant, you
know? It's just that you have the
child or insist, you terminate, the child, and there can be
spiritual and cultural abuse. And that's for where someone's
spiritual beliefs, or their cultural background is used as

(36:31):
an excuse for the abuse. So in the case of the brilliant
Roy, at my who I mentioned before her hustle up, her
husband, at the time, I am was Muslim and he would say to her,
you know, I'm not a beauty, thisis just our culture, the man is
meant to be the head of the household and she would rightly
say now I know that's not true that some manipulation of our

(36:51):
faith. Yes, it's true.
That the man should be the head of the household but that
doesn't mean that he gets to be abusive or destructive.
That means that he should be loving and caring and respectful
and create a safe home for his house.
Yeah. So a little bit like what you
referred to before, isn't it about how people can?
Say what's just masculinity? People are question masculinity.

(37:13):
That's a manipulation of what itreally means to be a man.
There's nothing about being a man, that means that you should
be destructive to yourself or tothose around you.
You know, we need to call this stuff out.
Great definitions and I think for a lot of people it's
eye-opening to understand that DVD isn't just hitting.

(37:35):
It is a whole range and the wordthat really stuck up for me is
control. Control seems to be at the Hub
of all these spokes in DV where someone tries to take someone's
power away from them. In fact, if you were to ask a
woman to ask or a man to reflecton, if they are experiencing

(37:56):
domestic violence, What would the question be?
Am I in a DV relationship? Because can you finish that
sentence? No, because it's not that
simple. So it's probably a lot of the
things that I've just mentioned.So I'm I mean, I guess
simplistic, you could say, do I feel safe around this partner?

(38:19):
Do I feel safe with this person?Do I feel that I can be my
authentic self with this person.Do I feel that this person has
my best interests at heart, but it's, it's not simple, I guess
because relationships don't tendto be simple and the patterns of
abuse, we're talking about aren't really simple either.

(38:39):
And as I said to you, you write that we do have this perception
that it's all about the physicalabuse.
And exactly what's an interesting exercise is if you
Google domestic violence. And look at the images that will
pop up. It will be the sorts of images
that are often used as stock images in news reports, and it
will usually be a woman coweringin the corner.

(39:00):
And then a man with a raised fist and again, it perpetuates
that myth that if you don't hit them, it's not abuse.
You know, I've had perpetrator say to me, Mitch Yes, yes, I do.
Put it down and I get angry and I throw things and yes, I don't
you know, I don't like her wearing those slutty clothes,
but I've never raised a fist to her.
I've never raised a hand to her is if that makes everything

(39:21):
else. Okay, right.
And so we need to call out that it is much more than just that
that is one form of abuse, but certainly not the only form of
abuse agree. I think what I want to do is
move away from people listening to this and thinking You know
that the shame kicks in and thenwe go black and white.

(39:42):
Oh well, I guess breathing is abuse.
These days. Everything sounds to be abused
and it's like, No, actually, that's not true.
Let's come back to an accessibledefinition, which is a making
someone feel unsafe and so, I guess now, would you ring or
less than so, how would you encourage perpetrators of abuse

(40:04):
unknowingly or knowingly, and, or victims of abuse?
To understand is this normal relationship stuff?
Or is this violence before I do,can I just can I just fired one
thing? You've just said that, I think
is important too because it contributes to us understand
more about this issue. We tend to stick away from using

(40:27):
the phrase victim of abuse and that's because when you hear the
word victim, it has connotationsof being week, perhaps or of
being vulnerable or cowering andthat's so You actually a
deterrent to coming forward because no one wants to think of
themselves as a victim. So the preferred terminology and

(40:47):
this is something that we listento survivors about is a Survivor
or a victim Survivor or those with lived experience and all of
those have connotations of strength or resilience and of
courage. And I'm so I think that's really
important to acknowledge. I'm so glad you called me out on
that. I'm calling you out.
Hopefully, it's no, no, it's good.

(41:09):
No, no, it's good. It's one of the other things I
would say to your listeners. This this is such a nuanced
area, right? And we don't know what we don't
know, and that's one of the things when I go in and talk to
corporates that I say, is, I think Mitch, you're so brave for
having this conversation becauseyou know, that you don't know
everything and you think what ifI get this wrong?

(41:30):
And so what happens is, we become so scared that we might
we might accidentally inadvertently.
Say the wrong thing that we say,nothing, right?
And we can't say nothing anymore.
So we have to be providing courageous and even if we don't
always get it right, be gently open to being called in not
called out. I hate call out culture, right?

(41:51):
Because I think it just makes people, it just makes people
shut down and refused to engage with areas like this one that
are really nuanced and complex. And so, I far prefer to call
people in and just gently explain because you don't know.
And once we know better, we do better.
So hey man. Amen.
Amen. So I'm grateful to be called in

(42:13):
on that terminology and I agree.It's much more true and
empowering to call someone a Survivor.
So coming back to the question normal versus not.
How do we tell it in relationships?
Yeah, to help someone understand.
Is this just normal relationshipstuff or am I in a domestic
violence relationship? Right now?

(42:35):
I think if any of the things I just mentioned are happening
that then that's a Flag that your relationship is not is not
healthy, right? I mean, if you're in a
relationship and you've actuallynormalized, abusive behaviors
and you've dismissed them as being part of what relationship
is like. Then I would ask you to really
rethink that and that needs to be something that we realized.

(43:00):
So, for example, here's an example of what I mean.
So we know that young people between the ages of 12 and 25
are actually the most at risk. Risk of relationship abuse and
that might shock some of your listeners.
We think of young love as puppy.Love as harmless love.
But in fact, that's often not true and amongst the cohort 12

(43:20):
to 25. One in four will report elements
of their relationship is being abusive.
So this matters for a whole range of reasons that I won't go
into now. But my point was that one of the
things that worries me about that, is it normalizes
dysfunctional relationship, doesn't it?
So if your first few relationships, His have had
elements of abuse, whether it beemotional abuse, whether it be

(43:43):
control, you start to think. Well, that's just what
relationships are like. And so then when it happens in
your next relationship, even if it's perhaps escalated, it still
feels fairly within the realm ofnormal to you, right?
Yeah. That's in your own home.
You witnessed abuse. You grew up in an abusive home.
And again, you think that throwing of things that

(44:05):
belittling that putting someone down that dictating what they
can and can't wear to you. That feels kind of familiar.
Mmm-hmm and I want to pick up onthat because I think a lot of
people's First Love is their parents and so some people and
I've been told this by by women who are in toxic relationships

(44:28):
where they've grown up with usually a father sometimes a
mother who is abusive and that that's how they learned love.
And I've actually had one friendasked me.
I feel biologically hardwired tonot only see traumatic

(44:48):
experiences as an adult as love,but I almost find them
attractive. I almost find that toxicity.
Something I'm drawn to. How do we help people?
Not feel like that. I think Buy.
Educating them about the fact that this stuff is abuse so that

(45:10):
it does feel less normal, right?That can be part of it.
I think. Also for me as someone who also
works with parents, it is about explaining to parents that, you
know, you can't hit your child and call that love.
You know, sometimes we do make the mistake of parents are
saying. Well, I do this because I love
you. I'm only treating you this way
because I love you, right? We should never equate love with

(45:33):
violence or abuse, you know, love elevates.
Often say to young people. To me, love is like helium.
It lifts things up, everything Rises with love, it doesn't use
its fist. It doesn't call names, it
doesn't put you down and just because we are parents, that
doesn't mean that we are excusedfrom treating our child with

(45:54):
great respect. Yeah.
And honoring that and and it canbe really tough.
I've got two kids, it can be really tough sometimes to not
smack and to not want to isolateand and all of Those things but
we have to dig deep because you're right.
These are foundational relationships and they said tone
for future relationships. That's not to say if you have
grown up in an abusive home but that's destined to be your path,

(46:18):
you know, like I certainly grew up with an abusive dad and
that's not been my path. In fact, I have a very good
radar for what I think might become an abusive or destructive
relationship and I can see the flags from 10 miles off and I
don't go anywhere near that, right?
But that is also taken some education and some work to

(46:40):
understand. Well, what are those flags and
social work go through? I don't believe at all the myth
that women end up with abuses because they lack self worth.
In fact, most of the survivors I've interviewed are phenomenal.
Women, you know, incredibly confident incredibly powerful
incredibly. In fact, often the research

(47:01):
shows that abuses can be very much drawn to women like that,
right? Because they see that almost has
a bit of Challenge. Well, they might initially be
drawn to her confidence and Drawn to her her success.
And then find that that challenges their own sense of
self and their own sins Securities.

(47:21):
May might want to want to bring her down a little bit, so when
we ask questions like that and again I'm calling you inmate.
I'm not calling you out. It also can be seen as a form of
victim blaming. So what we're doing then is we
are Sing all of our attention on, what could be wrong with the
victim Survivor rather than the perpetrator.

(47:42):
And there is so many things likethat, aren't there where we fall
often with really good intentioninto asking questions, like,
well, why wouldn't they just leave or, why would they go out
with these people in the first place?
And the truth is the answer to those things is really complex.
So one of the things that I really like to do when I'm in a
session is to say, look, here weare in this respectful place and

(48:05):
I'm in a respectful place. You now so we can do this.
Let's just for the sake of the argument tease out, why might
someone find it hard to leave anabuser?
What do you think? Mitch?
What might be some reasons? Why, if you're in an abusive
relationship, it could be hard to leave.
Well, I've studied up so this isan unfair question and I know

(48:26):
that the the least safe time foran experiencer or Survivor of
domestic violence is when They try and leave.
Yes. And that is because the
perpetrator feels the least sense of control.
And therefore, inflamed all of the manifestations of what that

(48:46):
relationship or losing that relationship represents.
So her not leaving is I'll become more unsafe and he'll
become more enraged my children and my ability to have access to
even pets and orchids that I love will be limited.
I financially kind of afford to do that.

(49:07):
And again, what are the family, the family gonna think, and then
even and this is for my understanding.
So call me and if it's this isn't true.
But over the course of the abusive relationship, I have
started to change my internal narrative around, whether I
deserve to be free of this relationship, who am I without

(49:28):
him or her? And so, for a number of reasons
you start to feel like this is my only option.
Correct, spot on. The other reasons could include.
And this is one that I think, you know, it can be hard for us
to come to Tennessee but we needto because you love them, right?
It could be, just that simple. You think about it.

(49:49):
Mitch, if you are with an abusive partner, they don't
abuse you on the first date. If they did, that would be easy,
wouldn't it? Because you go.
Wow, that person was awful. I'm not going back, they don't.
So you have fallen in love with this person and then the abuse
begins and it and it might be, it might Start small.
It might start with emotional abuse.
And after there is an incident of emotional, not that emotional

(50:12):
abuse is small, but it might start with a small example of
emotional abuse. And then after that, abuse after
there is an abusive episode. What do you think?
The partner says? I'm so sorry that will never
happen again. I love you just sliding me.
Well, I mean, I think in that moment, it's a desperate plea,

(50:32):
right? And so, what do we do?
When we listen, we want to believe the best in the We want
to believe that they are sorry. And what we also find in the
cycle of abuse is that after that episode of abuse, they'll
be this honeymoon period where actually your partner will treat
you beautifully, you know, theremight be flowers, there might be
a presence. There will be great love and

(50:54):
adoration. And then, of course, it will
build up to another episode of abuse, so it can be very hard to
leave. Because sometimes we might love
this person too, and for all of the reasons you said, you know,
financially, 'You might be deciding, do I stay here which
doesn't feel very safe or do I sleep in the car with the kids?
That doesn't feel very safe either.

(51:15):
Maybe I'll try and make the bestof things here.
As you rightly said. You know, they might have
convinced you don't deserve any better.
No one else is going to want you.
You might feel scared to speak out.
They might have isolated to you so much.
You've got no one that you feel.You can talk to mmm-hmm.
And that is why all of us who have colleagues who have friends
need to know what some of the warning signs.

(51:36):
Might be and we need to know howto handle disclosures.
So we can connect with with people that are experiencing
this and redirect them to support.
So they can go on till you've life's Beyond this and break
this pattern and my true in believing that a domestic
violence Survivor can attempt toleave.

(52:00):
But on average between 7 to 12 times before successfully
departing. Is that correct?
It's a really interesting. One because we often hear in
this sector, the statistic that on average, someone will try and
leave seven times before they leave for good funnily enough.
I just recently wrote a report and I could not find any
academic evidence to support this, so I'm not 100% sure.

(52:21):
It's certainly commonly thrown around in the sector, but I'm
not sure if the origins of the statistic, what I would say with
certainty from speaking to our shelter, managers and case
workers who work with women is that there will be multiple
attempts to leave whether Then you know, I don't know where
that statistic originally came from, but definitely, it can be

(52:41):
complex and it can take multipleattempts, which is why I mean,
it's one of the first things we should not do.
If we do have a conversation with someone who shares
relationship abuse with us, is say to them.
You've got to leave this person now.
It's going to be tempting. You might be thinking it but if
you say that what you are then doing is Trying to control their

(53:05):
decision-making and they alreadyknow they probably need to leave
and they need to work through that process but more than that
Mitch, if they can't, or if theydo leave and then go back there,
probably not likely to come to you for support again because
they might feel a great sense ofembarrassment.
I don't know if you've ever donethis much, I know, I have where
you've got a friend, they break up with someone that you never

(53:26):
really liked and then you say tothem, you know what, I never
really liked that person and then they get back together the
next week and it's all shades ofawkward.
Thinking I wish I'd never said that so we need to be really
careful that we put our judgmentout that we refrain from passing
judgment. If we are, if we are given a
disclosure and as a supporter and my also right in

(53:50):
understanding that it is helpfulto ask, someone directly do you
think that you're currently experiencing abuse or violence?
It depends on the context of therelationship you have with that
person. So if it's a work colleague I
probably wouldn't say that I would follow their lead.
The truth of it is to that as much as this might hurt us to no

(54:14):
survivors, don't owe us their stories.
So they might choose to share with us.
They might not choose to share with us and that's okay.
It's their narrative to tell when they're ready to whom
they're ready to talk to but it is really important.
If you've noticed signs to perhaps talk about those signs.
So you might say, hey, I noticedthe other day, when we went out
your partner, seemed really angry that you are home.

(54:36):
Late, is everything okay? Or do you feel safe at the
moment? So you might, as you said, be
really specific about some of the things that you've observed
and use that as a launching pad to initiate a conversation and I
think of some of the signs. So some of the signs that
someone is experiencing domesticviolence.
And some of the things that we talked about in the past might

(54:56):
include, you might notice Obvious changes in their mood.
They might seem more depressed or more anxious or more
withdrawn. They might not be engaging with
the things. So she they used to like to do
so they might drop out of your sporting team or they might not
want to do drinks on a Friday night with the girls anymore.
You might notice that they seem to always be texting their

(55:17):
partner and looking anxious and upset as they're doing that or
having to answer a lot of friends, you'd phone calls.
You might notice that they, whenyou are asking to how their
partner is or what do they do onthe Can they might sort of seen
shut down or quiet about that. You might notice dramatic
changes in the way they dress you know, perhaps dressing or

(55:39):
conservatively or changing theirsense of style or going off,
social media and sort of saying that their partner doesn't like
it anymore. Giving those sorts of reasons
for that. You might notice that in the
workplace that their performancehas really changed that they
seem really distracted. So, any of these things to me I

(56:00):
think. Think of as invitations just to
have a conversation and check into see how someone's going
knowing that they might not wantto tell you, but if they do want
to tell you, it's really important that we have the
skills to know how to manage that conversation and manage
that. Absolutely.
Yeah. Absolutely.
I think and those were really helpful, even more warning,

(56:24):
signs to look out for my question was less about, hey, I
want you to tell me the details of your Chip, I guess my
question was more. I was educated that saying is
someone hey this sounds like domestic violence to me is
actually helpful because they might not even say I know this

(56:46):
has happened to me previously. I've actually asked someone, do
you feel like you're in a domestic violence relationship?
Because to me, these relate, these behaviors sound more than
just normal conflict stuff. This sounds abusive and that was
really Helpful for them to be like, well, I actually never
thought about it like that and Ithink that's what I mean.

(57:07):
Right now, are they helpful Reflections for a supporter to
give? I think it would again, depend
on that your relationship with that person and your closeness.
If it was a close friend, I think you probably could be that
candid, right? If it was a work colleague, I
would be reluctant to label thatfor them.
I would be definitely letting them take the A tan on what they

(57:33):
wanted to sort of turn that relationship as being like and
looking like, because that couldbe really confronting straight
up. Yeah.
But if you've got a close relationship with that person,
then you might feel that you canbe that can dude.
Yeah, call me in. I'm going to keep going down
this line of questioning becauseand I'm happy for to be pulled
up on it, but I feel like, you know, if I go deep into my, my

(57:58):
area, which is our area in a way, which is mental health.
One thing I advocate for is courage and that there is no
healing without going toward thehard stuff.
And, and I pride my charity heart on my sleeve and me as a
speaker is getting up and talking about things that most
people don't because we want to feel good when we're listening

(58:20):
to, you know, just meditate and walk around the block and
everything's fine. I'm like that's bullshit.
It. Yeah, that's not actually true.
Before this before our chat thismorning, I was on the phone to a
friend and I was like, you know,he's saying I work sucks and
things going bad and I go, hey, I know that you might not want
to hear this, but one of the things I value about you most is

(58:43):
your ability to straddle the creative and analytical side of
your brain. And right now, I'm seeing so
much talent wither away. Because you have a unique gift
that I feel like the world has to offer and he's like oh that
hurts to hear because I know it's true and I'm like good
that's good pain, that's grow pain.
So I guess that's a long way of coming back to this.

(59:07):
Yes I agree at work we would need to be super conscious of
professional relationships and boundaries and not putting
anyone in a position where they feel like they're forced to
justify something personal to you.
We agree on that. but I I'm a fan of things, feeling

(59:28):
uncomfortable in the service of growth and I feel like if
sometimes it's awkward or confronting to get asked hey are
you in an abusive relationship right now?
That's a growth and that's a discomfort or even a even if
they think worse of me as a result of that and they're like

(59:48):
I don't want to hang out with Mitch is like, but if that means
that our relationship suffers inorder for me, It's a potentially
interrupt the cycle of pattern for them to go.
Whoa this requires some thought and in a way if there is
defensiveness around that question that's a good signal
that we might be in that territory because they know that

(01:00:11):
that's possibly true. So should we go toward the hard
thing and holding up the mirror sometimes in service of growth
you keep asking me this questionand I Have to just keep
deflecting because I think we'retalking about different things.
This is a really nuanced area with people who are potentially

(01:00:33):
at high risk and who may be experiencing a lot of trauma.
And so, I don't think it's our place to push them.
I think it's our place to listenand learn and you don't want to
actually risk alienating alienating that person any
further from connecting with youif you are in a discussion with
someone that's disclosed to you the Things that I would like you

(01:00:55):
to remember, to say to them, are, I believe you.
You are not to blame for this, and you are not alone.
So, by pushing too hard, then you're probably saying, unless
you missed your sort of Oh, prepared to agree with me, that
that's what this is, then you will be alone, right?
So I think if we want to say, you know, I believe you, you're

(01:01:16):
not to blame, you are not alone in that disclosure moment.
It's our job, Mitch to connect with that person, and then to
redirect to suppress, professional Support Services.
Now, then they may, we'll pose that exact questions, that's
probably where that will come in.
So it's our job is the friend, or the Ally to connect and then

(01:01:36):
redirect to professionals, not to try and manage.
That ourselves and the professional Support Services
will undoubtedly. Say you've told us this this
this and this this is relationship abuse.
You know, we need to have a conversation about this.
We need to get you support but Ido believe that as the friend or
the Ally that we want to be the connection piece rather than the

(01:02:00):
the piece that tries to label what they're experiencing for
them. I think we're saying the same.
It's also I don't think we're disagreeing, I actually think
we're saying the same thing. Also, you know, given the
context, that my whole life is dedicated to helping people

(01:02:20):
understand that connection is the therapeutic component, not
the fixing. So I'm not the problem, solver
guy, I'm the opposite of that. I spend my nine-to-five helping
people connect, I guess, some ofthis is also coming from my own
perspective of supporting a friend, out of a domestically,
abusive and violent relationship, and the impact
that took On on them for sure. But the pain it was in me seeing

(01:02:43):
someone that I love dearly, and there was no disclosure because
they didn't believe that, that'swhere they were.
There was no help-seeking because there was nothing to
seek help for and it wasn't until we had a Frank
conversation and subsequently, Ihad to extract them from a house

(01:03:04):
and call emergency services and in retrospect.
Spectre like oh that was DV. So I guess I'm coming from a
context of of Decline it out being helpful.
That's what I love about you. Sharing that story than a few
things. Thank you, for sharing it.

(01:03:24):
What I love about that is that you are using your personal
experiences to share what you'velearned in order to help people
grow. And that can be a really great
tool as an ally to use in this. So you could use that story, you
know, when you're talking to other to other males, for
example, you know, to explain what you witnessed in terms of

(01:03:46):
the impact of their behaviour, that evening, In if the partner
didn't necessarily label, it, asabuse was very clear that it had
a devastating impact on them andthat you witness that impact,
and it did escalate and to the point where you had to remove
them from the house. So you're sort of gone on that
Journey with them, haven't you? And it's obviously had a strong
impact on you just as it did. And this is the thing, right?

(01:04:07):
It's the same with mental healthissues.
This is ripple effect, isn't it?Doesn't just affect the couple.
It affects everyone around the couple as well, and how we feel
about whether we did Noah I didn't know whether there were
signs whether there weren't signs.
So in that situation you know, it did take your friend by the
sounds of things some time to realize and acknowledge what

(01:04:29):
they were experiencing and that's actually not uncommon.
Mmm. Yeah.
Talking about. I'd like to lift up the hood a
little bit if you actually I don't want to go there just yet.
I want to round this out to makesure the people have actionable
steps. So the biggest thing we can do

(01:04:51):
to help someone in a domestically abusive or violent
relationship. Whether it's labeled as that or
not simply just understanding someone's level of distress is
information enough. I guess the first step is always
to listen and to validate and I love the words I believe you
I've heard from many trauma survivors that I believe you is

(01:05:12):
is the difference between a healing experience and a
non-healing experience. And so we listen, we connect
even if we've never been there. Ourself we use curiosity
presence and compassion to explore what their reality is
like and to try and understand. And so I imagine that that's the

(01:05:33):
primary offering you can give and then encouraging them to or
asking more Curious questions around.
What do you think would be helpful right now?
What are you most afraid of whatrole can I play?
If any, and supporting, you build, your plan.

(01:05:55):
Moving forward. So we're empowering empowering
empowering instead of trying to take control of that situation.
Yeah, yeah. Yes.
Vote on. And what I think in terms of an
actual step is that something wecan all do?
And it's right up. My, my Ally is an educator is,
we're talking about the pointy tip of the iceberg.

(01:06:15):
If you like, we're talking aboutrelationship abuse.
Sexual assault violence. But underneath that are a whole
lot of gender stereotypes sexistbeliefs that don't serve us and
contribute to this culture, thatallows that to happen, right?
So what we can all do, whether we know someone who's in an
abusive relationship or not is question that stuff, speak out

(01:06:38):
about that stuff because the standard we walk past is the
standard we set, right? And if we call this out, then
it's less likely to escalate. Wait, to become normalized to
culminate in relationships, which are built on an imbalance
of power and control, and that can become so destructive.

(01:07:00):
And so dangerous, and it does start with the little things.
And we can't turn a blind eye tothough.
So that's what I would encouragepeople to do is to, you know,
not laugh at the sexist joke to call it out.
And when you do call out, this is a good tip for you mix.
If you do call out sexist Behavior or a sexist joke,
Aren't you find a defensive? Don't put the offense on to the

(01:07:22):
group that's been targeted. So for example, if you saw a
group of guys, making some sexist comments, you know,
rather than say, Hey, you shouldn't say that because if
the girls here, they could be, they could get offended.
So much more powerful to say, hey, that's offensive.
Not you know if you say it thoselittle snowflake e fragile girls

(01:07:42):
might get upset you're saying hey I find it offensive.
I don't think that's cool Behavior.
There's some of the things that we've all learned in our life
experiences, you know, some of the stories you shared about
things that have impacted on youwith your mates, talk to them
about that, let them know that this is where this stuff could
culminate to be. This is the impact it has on

(01:08:02):
people when we behave in this way.
Use questions, you know, question people, why would you
be acting that way? Or why do you think that's funny
or what do you hope to gain by that?
And also being a good example. Damn pool.
You know, in our workplaces, in our homes, being that difference

(01:08:24):
and not buying into these outdated sexist stereotypes,
that don't serve women and they don't serve me and I are hmm.
I know for me, it took a long time for me to get comfortable
enough in myself and and I almost feel shame that it's
taken this long to say, hey, even to my closest friends.

(01:08:47):
Us or even a complete stranger that I meet and they think it's
okay to be like, you know, excuse my language but that slut
that bitch fuck her. It took me a longer than I would
like to admit to be able to say We don't do that here dude.
I don't know if you know this but in like no that's not going

(01:09:08):
to fly with me and thankfully now my friends know, just to not
go there like and I think part of that is because At the end of
the day, all men are in relationship to women as mothers
sisters, daughters, Etc. And if anyone called my mother

(01:09:29):
or my sister or my girlfriend, those things I would be irate
and I'm sure they would too. But above that, what gives
anyone the right to degrade someone to that level
specifically if it's gender loaded in the terminology So my

(01:09:51):
Call to Arms there is guys if you're listening to this I get
that it could be uncomfortable. But who do you want to be if you
want to be a man, a man is beingbrave and courageous and
potentially going against the pack and service to what's,
right? So I think it's I think we have
to start stepping up more and calling people in, but also

(01:10:13):
calling them the fuck out. Sometimes sometimes Fisher and
I'm so not just Just honoring and respecting women because
they could be our mothers, our sisters, our Dolphins, it just
because they are human and they worthy of respect.
Yeah. Regardless, if their
relationship to you, you know what I mean?
And I can do is my second part. Yeah, yeah, you talk to say, no,

(01:10:34):
I get it. I get it.
And sometimes it might take, youknow, it might take me a minute
to realize that we respect women, not just because they are
related to us, or because they were a particular type of woman.
And we also the other point, I would make on that meat cheese
that we don't need. Men necessarily to be chivalrous

(01:10:55):
either and protect us. We just want them to respect us.
Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah, no.
I hope my comment didn't come across as did not believe in the
sense of, I can only understand this because I have female in my
life. It's I can understand this
because humans, inherently of value and deserve respect.

(01:11:19):
Aspect and putting anyone down is not cool.
Let alone someone based on gender which is just is
incredibly bad, so where I wanted to go before if we can
because then it was Parts. Really important is Lifting Up

(01:11:39):
the hood on the nuances of sexual interaction because I
think there's a lot of micro things that happen that men
don't understand are like not. Okay, I've seen amazing.
In campaigns, for example, on the train that like leap, you
know, pressing up against someone in a crowded train is
like fucking wrong and it's amazing that a campaign has to
call that out. But like don't do that, I don't

(01:12:00):
stare at someone and not break eye contact when you know, that
they're feeling uncomfortable, don't look down their top
because you're taller than them,you know to and it's like yeah
fucked. If the we really need campaigns
around this but obviously we do and I apologize like that almost
on behalf of my gender that we do.
But enthusiastic consent is really interesting and I want to

(01:12:25):
talk about consent because I'm Ialso, you know, consent can
change it anytime and I'm a big believer in that even leading up
to this interview were talking about some of the things.
And I said, whatever we agree onif that changes at any time,
like that's totally fine. Because a yes, is only as a yes.
As long as it is that and it canbecome a knowing when it's a no,

(01:12:45):
it's now and no one. Yes, doesn't mean an always-on?
Yes. So, as a man, I've been thinking
about this and reflecting on this a lot in that, like, you
know, if I'm in relationship to my partner, which is a woman, or
when I'm single, for example, I find it sexy to sometimes engage

(01:13:12):
in sexual behavior without sitting down and saying, you
know, are you comfortable with this now?
Do you want this now? Now and getting it out loud
verbal. Yes, sometimes it's nice just to
feel the moment and break into sex and and that be a really
natural organic thing. So how do we, what's your
perspective on keeping it natural and light and fun and

(01:13:34):
sexy and not over prescriptive. But also having an under pinning
of consents at all times. Yeah and I don't think it's as
complex as people try and pretend that it might be and I
do believe that sometimes the people that say oh it's all
outrageous now and we're Jasper.They just use these is as an
excuse or as a bit of a mask to try and dismiss what's actually
a really important and significant discussion that we

(01:13:57):
need to have about consensual relationships and respectful
relationships. So, can I tell you how we don't
want to be teaching this? And that is the way that the
Federal Government tried to withtheir ridiculous milkshake ad
campaign. I don't know if you remember
that, but it caused a furor. They spent millions of dollars
trying to teach teenagers about consent via an ad that featured

(01:14:17):
a girl throwing a milk, shake itup.
Partner and trying to convince him to drink it when he didn't
want to. It was nonsense.
I think a lot of the time in thepast, the mistakes we've made
are using a lot of metaphors. Particularly when we talking
about this, with young people, things like cups of teas or
talking about tacos or rather than talking authentically about
what sexual consent should look and feel like and I think it's

(01:14:39):
really important and young, people have demanded that we be
more open and that so let's be kind of open all of that being
said, I'm not going to use a metaphor, but I am going to use
a Well respected acronym, which is fries.
All right? And an acronym for those that
don't remember, their English isjust a memory technique to
remind us of the terminology. So it's freely given reversible,

(01:15:02):
informed enthusiastic and specific and I'll talk you
through what, all of those mean?So, first of all, consent needs
to be freely. Given what that means is.
If you say to someone, hey, unless you let me do this with
you, I'm not going to drive you home, obviously, that's not
freely given in a Relationship. If you say to your partner, if
you don't, let me do this with you, I'm going to break up with

(01:15:23):
you, that's not freely given, right?
So, the person needs to be able to freely, give their consent to
engage with you, not feel that they are going to lose something
or be punished or dismissed in any way if they don't write.
It needs to be reversible. So, as you rightly said, you
know, you can say yes at the beginning and change your mind
at any point and that's okay. And that might sound simply

(01:15:46):
like, hey, I'm not that into it anymore or I'm not really Let's
take a break, right. It needs to be informed.
So obviously, your partner can'tversions they obviously, because
clearly, it hasn't always been obvious your partner, can't be
heavily intoxicated, you know, they can't be off their face on
drugs. They can't be asleep, they can't
be unconscious. Right?
They need to be able to give informed consent.

(01:16:08):
It needs to be enthusiastic. What that means is just because
they didn't say no, and they didn't fight you and they didn't
try and run away, doesn't necessarily mean they've
consented. We No, that particularly if we
feel traumatized we might freezeup.
Yeah. And so this means when you're
with your partner, you need to basically be to be a good lover,

(01:16:31):
a good communicator. So you need to be able to read
their body language. Like if she looks really Frozen
and stiff. Is she still into it?
Maybe just check. Right if she's shaking, maybe
not into it, just check if she'scrying clearly, not into it,
right? So you need to read your
partner's body language. And if in doubt, you ask
questions, does this? Also nice, where would you like
me to touch you? You want me to slow down?

(01:16:52):
You want me to do more? What would feel better, right?
So this is just an ongoing dialogue.
That makes you a good lover. I remember when I was talking to
some teenagers about this recently a girl in year 12 got
the giggles and I said to her, what are you giggling at?
And she said, I just think I'd be so embarrassed to say those
things to my partner and I said to her, well, with all due
respect, then you're probably not ready to have sex yet.

(01:17:14):
If you can't have that kind of conversation with your partner,
And it needs to be specific. So just because you've said yes
to one thing doesn't mean everything is on the menu.
So if you want to change from, you know, kissing to oral sex,
you just need to check in with your partner again, and it
doesn't always have to be particularly if it's a long-term
partner and your commuted doesn't always have to be

(01:17:35):
necessarily A whole discussion. It can be reading their body
language, yeah, as well. So if they're not really wanting
that and they're pulling away orthey're trying to like wiggle
around the bed, so you can't getnear that part of their body.
Pretty good signal, they're not really into it.
The difference, he's too and I love the example, you gave me,
which I had it recently from a teacher as well.
It's a great one. You know, when you are in an

(01:17:56):
ongoing relationship, especiallyI don't think it's realistic.
That every single time you're going to kiss them or touch
them, you're going to have a whole conversation, right?
But I do think what you're also need to be open to is
understanding that if you end up, you know, to your partner
and you just had to give her a big kiss and she wasn't really
in the mood and she said, not atthe moment, Mitch you'd be cool
with that. Like a fair call you know, you'd

(01:18:19):
understand that it's still her body.
It's not your body and it's her rules and you need to negotiate
that those sexual relationships with each other.
And so the consent particularly in an early relationship, I
think this should be quite a bitof talk going on.
Yeah. Doesn't mean you're chatting the
whole time, but it's just a discussion is about learning
about your lover. Do you like this?

(01:18:39):
Do you not like this? What do you like, show me talk
to me and reading their body andreading their interactions with
each other which does make you agood lover and Six better for
everyone. So nothing is to me is punitive
to me, it's pretty hot. Yeah, I agree.
And you know, many of my friendsknow, this about me, the biggest
compliment a woman can give me and I'm grateful that I have

(01:19:05):
received this a lot, and I've worked hard to be.
This person is you feel really safe?
Yeah, that's beautiful. And, and that is For me
everything because that's the person I want to be.
And sometimes it does require a bit more communication than

(01:19:26):
maybe what you're used to and itmeans checking and particularly,
if things are leveling up quickly and it's, you know, a
new partner, it's like, is this,are you comfortable with this?
Is this something you're excitedabout?
And yes, some of it's just like don't being read body language,
have enough EQ to be like, is this feeling good?
Is this flowing? And if unsure, I just checking

(01:19:48):
and I'm actually certain that they'll appreciate that.
They won't see that as a turn off, they'll see that as well.
He respects me. This is bringing me emotionally
closer. I love it and I can imagine you
would be a safe guy. You certainly come across as
very respectful in your dealingswith me so far which I really

(01:20:09):
appreciate it. But I think it's important to to
know and maybe it sort of almosta nice note to finish on the
truth of it is that the vast majority of guys are so Safe and
respectful. You know I wrote a newspaper
column once about the fact that as a young girl in my 20s you
know I could be pretty well thattimes Mitch and there was many
occasions where I would be really drunk at nightclubs.

(01:20:31):
And thankfully, no one took advantage of me.
They would get me home safely ormy male friends.
Would be the ones to say that you've had enough Danny, you
need some water. Like you drive you home, there
would be times where I'd be at parties and I would have a
boyfriend who was being abused. You've and, you know, screaming
at me and some guy would come upand go do, don't talk to her

(01:20:52):
like that. That's not on and so what I
think we need to do is normalizethe good guy stuff, the
respectful stuff. Yeah.
Because not all men, but enough men do the wrong thing and those
good guys need to be more vocal and they need to be more
celebrated and we need to acknowledge so that the standard

(01:21:13):
the community standard becomes that this is what we and this is
actually what the majority are already doing.
You're the one that's the outlier behaving this way.
Yeah so before we close up I just want to say how grateful I
am for all of this and it's not your role as a woman nor your

(01:21:36):
role as a Survivor to have to educate men and me but you've
chosen to do that and given me your time.
So thank you very much for for that.
And I know that this is going tobe helpful to a lot of people.
So the way I like to close out is a few quick rapid-fire

(01:21:57):
questions, okay. So if you had access to a
billboard over the main Highway,let's say I'm in Sydney and you
could put one thing on that billboard.
What would it say? I don't know.
I'm not good at rapid fire questions and I'm going to

(01:22:17):
acknowledge that because, you know, you know what, I'll have
you to play though. If I don't know, I'm going to
say, I don't know. And you know why?
Because I think we live in a culture probably thanks to
Twitter where we're all asked toform an opinion and get it out
there in a few seconds without actually reflecting and
contemplating. And I think that is such a if I
had if I had a billboard over Highway, then I'm probably spend

(01:22:40):
weeks thinking about what I wanted to say because that An
amazing sight for exposure. So I'm going to, I'm going to
say that, I would come back to you on my, my billboard
marketing pitch. You know what?
That's a hundred times better than answering the question
because what is just displayed is a you setting a boundary be
me reframing that I could have asked you that question by

(01:23:03):
saying, hey I hope I can ask yousome rapid fire questions.
How do you feel about them? I didn't actually ask you some
rapid fire questions. I don't get it.
But I will say that if I don't know, I would say, I don't know
because, you know what, I wish the world would do that more
often. I one of my pet hates Mitch is
that we live in this culture where people just fire to head

(01:23:25):
off and they do it on Twitter all the time.
They don't think they don't reflect, and I think we should
reflect, and we should pause sometimes before we before we
preach. Yeah, amen.
Okay. So you're comfortable to get a,
let's go again. If I did, if I don't know the
answer to the next one, will give up on this game, but we'll

(01:23:46):
try one more time. Okay.
One more? Yeah.
Um, is there a manager that you live by?
Yes, there is. So, there you go.
We're lucky. And it's quite beautiful, I
think. And can I tell you a little bit
about why it's become my mentor,my mantra', and I'm going to
feel teary telling you this because it touches me in a very
deep emotional way, is simply You'll be okay, you'll be.

(01:24:11):
All right when I was little Mitch, I was burnt, as I said,
you have got third-degree Burns and I spent six months in
hospital as a little girl at to all by myself in that hospital
room and back then I'm 52. The treatment was quite
primitive. You know I couldn't have my mom
with me all the time or my dad. I was alone a lot of the time

(01:24:33):
and for whatever reason and it probably saved me.
I remember that was mine. At trial, you know, I would lay
there often in excruciating painbecause burns are incredibly
painful and back. Then there wasn't really a lot
of treatment and I had to have four surgeries.
But I would say to myself, you'll be okay.

(01:24:54):
You'll be your and it's really soothing voice.
I suspect it was the voice of a nurse who perhaps would say that
to me, and then that became my inner voice, my internal voice,
but it has remained my inner voice.
You know, my Eternal voice and it's, um, It makes me emotional
because it is so healing and so caring and it's and to me, it's

(01:25:21):
an inner voice. That Mother's me.
Yeah. It's really beautiful and I'm so
glad that that that little girl who still lives inside of you in
some way, is hearing that from your adult self.
Totally, I think care of her forme.

(01:25:42):
Anyway, I became The adults thatI needed when I was little.
Yes. Yeah.
And what an adult that is down, your beautiful, beautiful human,
and incredibly strong and insightful, human being.

(01:26:04):
And you helped a lot of people every day and we need more
people like you in the world. So appreciate this.
And if people want to reach out I'll get in contact with you is
social media, the best place to do that.
Yeah, absolutely. So I wear a few different hats,
I work, my own company is unlikely education and we work
in schools on well-being and respectful relationships.

(01:26:27):
But I also am the director of education for women's Community
shelters, who do incredible workon domestic and Family Violence
and run that corporate training.So they can contact me on any of
my social has. I'm a big LinkedIn fan, and very
active on there, or they can contact me by women's Community
shelters as well. Fantastic and will put all that
in the show notes. So, Danny see you soon.

(01:26:51):
Thanks so much. Meat was really beautiful
emotions. Have a natural tendency to
dissipate unless they get reinforced.
And so if there's more thoughts,more stories, your intentions
alone, so the act of how am I leaving it?
Alone is an act of not act, adding more stories, adding fuel
to it, so it might not go in twominutes, but it had begins to

(01:27:12):
relax with dissipate And so rather than being the person who
has to fix, it would become the person who makes space for their
heart, the mind to relax and settle away itself.