July 31, 2025 • 59 mins
This week on Mixed and Mastered, host Jeffrey Sledge sits down with journalist, tastemaker, and cultural force Emil Wilbekin for a deeply personal and powerful conversation. From his roots in Cincinnati to shaping the voice of Vibe Magazine during hip-hop’s golden era, Emil reflects on the journey that made him one of the most influential Black voices in media.
They talk fashion, identity, HBCU pride, and breaking barriers—especially what it meant to be an openly gay Black man in a historically homophobic industry. Emil opens up about the support that carried him, the resistance he faced, and the legacy he's building through Native Son, a platform created to empower Black queer men.
This is Mixed and Mastered with Emil Wilbekin.
Mixed and Mastered is produced and distributed by Merrick Studio, and hosted by music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to the discussion on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @MixedandMasteredPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://mixedandmasteredpod.buzzsprout.com/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week, on Mixed and Mastered, we're talking with
Emile Wilberkin, a culturalforce who helped shape how we
see fashion, music, media andidentity.
From leading Vibe magazine tobecoming an editor-in-chief at
Giant magazine and a New YorkTimes bestselling author,
emile's career has spannedeverything from BET, essence,
(00:22):
afropunk and beyond, bet,essence, afropunk and beyond.
Emil is also the founder ofNative Son, a platform
empowering Black, gay and queermen, and a professor at FIT,
shaping the next generation ofjournalists.
This is Mixed and Mastered withEmil Wilberkin.
Welcome to Mixed and Mastered,a podcast where the stories of
(00:44):
the music industry come to life.
I'm Jeffrey Sledge, bringingyou real conversations with the
people who have shaped the soundof music.
We're pulling back the curtainon what it takes to make it in
the music business.
These are the stories you won'thear anywhere else, told by the
people who live them.
This is Mixed and Mastered.
Live them.
(01:04):
This is Mixed and Mastered.
Mixed and Mastered with a bigmaca maca.
Emil Wilberkin, how you doing,man, I'm good, jeff.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming on.
I really appreciate it, man,let's jump right into it.
So you're born in Cincinnati,ohio, or born in Cleveland?
Were you born in Cleveland orCincinnati.
So that's a great question.
I was born in Cleveland, bornin Cincinnati, ohio, or born in
Cleveland?
Were you born in Cleveland orwere you born in Cincinnati?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So that's a great question.
I was born in Cleveland, raisedin Cincinnati.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, yeah, my mom, that's a long story.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Are you going to tell it?
Well, I mean, so I was adopted.
So I was born in Cleveland andthen my adoptive parents came
from Cincinnati to adopt methere.
So I have a lot of love forCleveland, but I was raised most
of my life in Cincinnati, gotit, got it, got it, got it.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, my mom's side is from Kentucky, so I would go
down there and see her and we'dcome up as a kid, we'd go to
Kings Island or Kings theamusement park, yeah.
I've been there.
It's the great amusement parkthat would be the highlight of
our summer.
Exactly you might have crossedpaths with kids that have not
(02:18):
even known it exactly.
So I was reading and I wasreading and you, you got into
the fashion side of things veryearly.
Um, as a teen, I guess, likeyou know, kind of figured out
that was one of your, one ofyour big passions.
I wanted you to talk to me alittle bit about that.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So I have to give credit where credit is due.
My interest in fashion solelywas inspired by my mom.
My mom was um.
You know my mother was.
She had her her undergrad andher master's in music.
She was the minister of musicat our church.
(02:56):
She also was an administrativelaw judge for the state of ohio.
So my mom had her doctorate inpsychology.
Like my mother was gangster.
But my mother from Des Moines,iowa, met and married my dad in
New York.
So my mother dressed like a NewYork woman, like even back in
(03:17):
Cincinnati.
So she would go to work andhave on like a Halston red,
ultra suede wrap dress with likeknee-high boots, big sunglasses
, a wig and a mink coat on hershoulders, like she was killing
it.
So I almost didn't have achoice.
This is how my mom's wasdressing all the time and even
(03:39):
if she was dropping me off ofschool she would have on like a
nightgown and put a mink coatover it and have like this
sparkly hat with red lipstickand big Christian Dior glasses.
The kids in Cincinnati thoughtmy mom was crazy.
She was fly, but they don'tknow what fly is there like that
.
So a lot of my interests camefrom my mom, right, the big kind
(04:02):
of my big, big falling in lovewith fashion really came through
the movie Mahogany with DianaRoss and Billy Dee Williams,
right, and it's classic.
And just seeing that wholejourney of her, you know loving
fashion and studying fashiondesign and illustration, and
then you know, not becoming afashion designer but becoming a
(04:27):
model, but being immersed inthat whole world and then having
her own collection.
That really stuck with me.
And then at the same time oneof my cousins in St Croix was
studying fashion in Miami at, Ithink at Parsons, and so she was
showing me how to do fashionillustration.
So it was all of those thingstogether and I mean, at 12 years
(04:49):
old I was reading GQ and Ebonyman and I was like I just I fell
in love with fashion.
And then the last part was oneof my high school teachers, mr
Ferguson, was in the EbonyFashion Fair.
He was the fashion fair model.
So he was in the Ebony FashionShows, he had been photographed
(05:10):
in GQ and he studied paintingunder Picasso.
So those were the yeah, sothese were like all the things
that just really got meinterested in fashion.
And then, I think too, comingof age when music videos were
starting right, so it was alljust seeing all of these things
together.
There was something I wanted todo in fashion.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Let me start by a quick question.
Do you think Mahogany could bemade again Like could that be a
remake, or is it just twodifferent time periods?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
No, I think there are definitely conversations that
people want to do a remake ofthis two different time period.
I think no, I think there aredefinitely conversations that
people want to do a remake and,um, I think it could.
These remakes scare mesometimes because they steal the
moment.
I think part of the moment thatmade mahogany so amazing was
that time period right in thelate 70s, early 80s, and the
(06:03):
fashion and even how billy dwilliams is dressed, but her
fashion and her style was justreally off the chain yeah, I
agree, I agree and and kind ofmahogany, kind of exposing the
european side of things and howthey.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
yeah, it's kind of weird and stuff that we we know
that a lot more now, but backthen that was like seeing
another planet.
It was like, oh, we didn't evenknow it got down like that.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
And the racism and all that yeah exactly Racism and
all that stuff.
Yeah, it was interesting, man,wait, I don't want to know if
I'm going to speak about it asan influencer.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
You know what I mean.
That was my point.
See, it would change and itwould be that, and that's why
I'm like ah, you know, a millionfollowers on Twitter.
I don't know if I'll you know.
That's not what this was.
That's not what that was.
We're on the same page.
We're both proud HBU grads Iwent to.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Morgan, I went to Hampton.
That's right HBCU.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
When you went, it was still HSU.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
No, no, no.
I think the year before I wentis when it shifted.
Okay, jeff, what you're goingto learn about me on this
podcast is most of my influenceis from my family.
That's great.
That's great.
Yeah, no, it's great.
So my dad went to Hampton, myolder brother went to Hampton.
(07:35):
I basically come from a Hamptonfamily.
I was the eighth person in myfamily to go to Hampton, so my
aunt.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
You have legacy.
You have legacy, kim.
Oh, I Hampton, so I'm superlegacy.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
My uncle was head of ROTC, my aunt met her husband,
my uncle there.
It's just I'm legacy.
So when I was growing up, likewe would go to Hampton for, like
my father's you know,graduation anniversaries, when
my brother went I would go andwe would drop him off, so always
going down there to pick him up.
(08:05):
So I was raised in a superHampton family and there was a
joke that my mother would say,because my mother, you know, she
went to Drake in Des Moines, soshe's like I'm mad, I miss my
HBCU experience.
But her sister went to Hampton,right, so she would say you can
go wherever you want, anyschool you want in the country,
in the world, your tuition willbe paid at Hampton.
(08:29):
And so, you know, I was like,say less, like I'm going to
Hampton Because I was raised inthat world, like the Hampton
choir would come to Cincinnatiand would stay at our house and
like we would have dinner forthem with all the alumni.
So I was really raised in thatenvironment.
So I actually wanted to go toHampton and it was a beautiful
(08:53):
experience.
But it changed from HamptonInstitute the year before I went
.
I got you, got you, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, I went to visit Hampton's camp to like.
Two of my best friends wentthere and this girl I dated in
high school went there.
So I went there one time and Iliked it.
It was, but it was veryinteresting because that camp is
very isolated, yeah, like it'svery kind of in its own world
kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
And in the country, right.
So you know, I would call myparents and be like it's cool,
but like everyone say hello tome, like what is going on, and
they're like you're in the South, like you say hello back sir,
and I was like, oh, okay, but itwas great.
I mean I met so many peoplefrom New York you know, because
it's very DMV heavy and New York, new Jersey, tri-state,
(09:44):
connecticut.
I DMV heavy and New York, newJersey, tri-state, connecticut.
I met Angelique there, many ofmy.
Jocelyn Glooper was my bigsister at Hampton.
Wow, Wow.
Yeah, like.
And I met her on the yard, likeso by the time I graduated from
high school.
Now I'm like super fly, right,I'm wearing Willie Smith, I got
(10:04):
a high top fade, I'm doing allthe things right.
So Jocelyn Cooper walks up onme on the campus and is like
where are you from?
And I was like Cincinnati.
Like what an attitude.
And she was like there's no way, you're from Cincinnati dressed
as fly.
And I was like I'm fromCincinnati, ohio.
And from that minute on she'slike I'm your big sister.
(10:27):
And she took me under her wing.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, Beautiful, that's beautiful, and I read
that when you, after yougraduated, you spend a little
time, you did the schoolnewspaper correct and, hampton,
were you part of the school in?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
the mass media arts department.
So the fashion thing kind ofgot killed because my parents
you know both my parents werelawyers.
My father was also anarchitectural engineer.
So they were like the fashionthing we're not so big on that.
You know, traditional Blackfamily, caribbean family they're
like you need to do somethingpractical.
(10:58):
So I ended up studying massmedia arts and so Hampton has
one of the best.
Now it's the Scripps HowardSchool.
They have one of the best massmedia arts and communications
schools at HBCU them and Howardand so I studied that.
I became the editor of theschool paper and I figured that
(11:20):
through internships at theCincinnati Enquirer people were
like you should probably go intomagazines because you like
fashion and style and culture,newspapers and fires and board
meetings and all that may not beyour thing.
And then I realized I mean, Inever thought about like I've
been reading GQ.
Like I said, since I was a kidI never thought about, oh, I
(11:42):
could actually do that as a job.
So I really leaned into that.
When I graduated I was editorof the school paper, I was the
official fly boy at that pointand my goal was to move to New
York and that was as a kid Iwanted to live in New York
(12:02):
because I would just see it onTV and go to family reunions and
think about fashion.
Everything was in New York.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And then you spent a little time in London before
grad school, correct?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah.
So my goal was like, how do Iget to New York?
So I applied for jobs.
So I was interviewing at CondéNast, at Vogue, and I was
interviewing at Rolling Stoneand Newsweek and all these
places.
And then I applied to gradschool.
So I applied to NYU forAmerican Studies.
I applied to ColumbiaJournalism School, so I get into
(12:32):
Columbia.
But I was so busy focusing ontrying to get to New York that I
didn't have a plan for like, oh, I got into grad school, I
don't have anything to do forthe summer.
So, as I said, my father's fromSt Croix, my mother's from Des
Moines, iowa, you're going towork.
This ain't.
No.
What do they call it?
Skip year, jump year, whateverit is.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
You're going to work.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
So I found an internship program through
Boston University where youcould study British media and
advertising in London and internat a magazine.
So I got the internship, whichwas great, wow.
And Jeff, let me tell yousomething, because you're a
music person, a culture personthis is the Batman rave summer.
This is the summer when soul tosoul is at its height, and I'm
(13:21):
in London at that moment in time, right, and I'm in London at
that moment in time.
So it's like it's cool to beblack and it's like all these
raves and ecstasy and all thisstuff.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
And that's the fly you know fly.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I mean, it was an Afrocentric thing was happening
with hip hop, so it was a really, really great time to be in
London, so I studied there andthat's how I spent my summer
before I came to great time tobe in London, so I studied there
, and that's how I spent mysummer before I came to New York
to go to Columbia.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
It's like you hit London at theperfect time, right, yeah, it
was a setup.
It was a setup, yeah.
So then you come back and go toColumbia, yeah so then you come
back and go to Columbia.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, go to Columbia and study magazine journalism,
journalism and magazinejournalism.
So it's a one year program.
So I get my master's and I justmeet all these amazing people
because I'm my friend.
His mother was like I think shewas head of either programming
(14:26):
or advertising at BLS at thetime, so I was able to go to all
these like parties.
I remember going to a party inthe village for Heavy D.
I remember going to Red Alert's, like big birthday party at the
Red Parrot, like.
So I'm doing all this while I'min grad school.
So my professors are like, whatare you doing?
(14:47):
And I was like I'm outside,like I'm young.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I'm outside.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I'm young.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, I'm in New York City.
What are?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
we doing, you know.
And then I was friends withfrom Hampton Wendell Haskins and
Jack Benson, so they wereputting me on and so I was just
like going to all these flyparties.
And so I had a cultural affairsreporting professor named
Samuel G Friedman.
He's still at Columbia.
He said why don't you writeabout hip hop?
(15:15):
He's like you're going to allthese parties, like why don't
you write about it?
And that changed everything,because at that moment I just
started leaning in and because Ihad so many plugs in the music
industry jocelyn, everybody, Iwould just they would hook me up
to do interviews with people.
So I'm like writing all thisstuff as a grad student new to
(15:38):
new york from cincinnati, by wayof anthem, and that literally
changed the whole trajectory ofmy career.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
That's incredible, man.
That's you've been in the rightplaces.
You've like been in the rightplace at the right time.
It kind of keeps working inyour favor.
That's a beautiful thing.
I'm going to skip forward justa tad because I really want to
hear.
I know you were part of theinitial core group for Vibe
magazine and I want to hearabout that.
(16:08):
But I also want to hear about,like the conversations you guys
were having in developing Vibeand like what the mission
statement was, what you wantedit to be.
I want to hear about that, okay.
And the conversations withQuincy.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And the conversations with Quincy as well, of course,
of course.
So I mean.
So basically it was JonathanVan Meter who was chosen to be
the first editor.
It was very controversialbecause he was a white gay guy,
but he, I had met him through abunch of folks who worked in
magazines and there was thisthing called the Last Thursday
of the Month Club and we wouldgo and just have drinks and we
(16:44):
were all young and like someoneworked at Rolling Stones,
someone worked at Vandy Fair, acouple of people worked at the
Village Voice, and in that groupwe were also going out to clubs
because, you know, early daysof hip hop, club music is
thriving, all this thing, djculture, and so we would just go
out and we were like, wouldn'tit be dope if we had our own
magazine that focused on musicand fashion?
(17:06):
And that was really how itstarted.
So that's us going to the Roxyand then all these other places,
and then we would go back tohis place and like order
breakfast and just chop it up.
And that's how the idea of uscreating our own magazine,
parallel Path, time Warner,forms, their merger and they're
(17:30):
developing new projects.
They have a magazine wing, sothey develop Martha Stewart
Living out of that.
So they had a call out to startnew magazines and then Quincy
and Russell together went tothem and said we want to do a
magazine that focuses on Blackmusic and culture and
(17:51):
specifically hip-hop.
So then it gets all politicright with white business folks
with Black culture and all thethings, and so they're like, yes
, we want to do this magazine,but they start looking for
editors.
And then it's Time Inc.
So they want somebody who'slike super duper, dope editor.
(18:11):
And they end up landing withjohnson.
So then that is kind ofcontroversial because it's like
a white gay guy is going to editthis hip-hop magazine.
So russell's like I'm out.
And then quincy's like I reallybelieve in this.
And so johnson said, well, Ihave all these friends that work
in different places and they'resuper talented and this and
(18:32):
that, can they come work here?
And they said, well, they haveto go through the editorial
process and hiring andinterviewing like everybody else
, but if they're qualified,let's bring them in vibe.
With the addition of ScottPolson, bryant, joe Morgan,
(18:54):
kevin who else?
Kevin Powell, greg Tate wasbrought on to write and a lot of
other folks, right, a lot ofother iconic folks.
So that was how it started.
The initial idea was hip-hop wasthe center, and then how did it
(19:15):
touch film, fashion or allthese writing, literature, all
of that?
But hip-hop and r&b were thecore, and so that was really
interesting, even on like tryingto pick the first cover because
we knew it had to be hip hopbut we didn't want it to be like
(19:36):
commercial out the gate and hiphop was kind of borderline
commercial at that point.
And so the idea I think,talking to Tommy Boy Records and
stuff like that, the idea cameabout about Tretch, about about
tretch and somebody that wasreally hard on the streets had
(19:57):
not fully blown up yet, but itwas kind of the perfect storm as
well.
Opp was bubbling, so that's howwe landed on the track.
He was a great looking kid.
He was a great looking, greatlooking kid, yeah, yeah, and it
was, you know, and he kind ofrepresented hip-hop.
But he, like black american manand and the the secret sauce of
vibe, was really the greattalent that we were covering.
(20:19):
But it was also the photography, the graphic design and the
writing and that's what this.
This moved us out of the wayfrom everybody because quincy
wanted it to kind of feel likeRolling Stone means Vanity Fair,
but through this black lens,and that's.
That was kind of the formula.
(20:39):
Yeah, I remember, I rememberthat.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I remember how the magazine was bigger, like it was
actually bigger than like thesource.
It was like bigger and they andit was very Vanity Fair-ish, it
was very fashion-y.
You could look through it.
It was like you would lookthrough it and then you would go
back and read the stories,right, right.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
You would look at the pictures and you know the thing
is the great writing, a lot ofthat was taken from the work
that was done at the VillageVoice with you know, with Greg
Tate and with Joan Scott waswriting there so many brilliant,
brilliant Barry Michael Cooper,like all these amazing writers.
(21:23):
And so having that type ofsensibility with the writing and
then really bringing in likenew writers and just kind of
having something that wasdifferent, including dancehall,
reggae into it, underground clubmusic, but it always had to be
from the center point of likehip hop and black music.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
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Speaker 1 (22:24):
So now I read that you were the fashion person when
it first started.
No, am I wrong?
Okay, okay, correct me, correctme.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
So I started.
This is going to be funny.
I started as the news editor.
I was really because I've goneto columbia and I've been
writing for, like the new yorktimes, chicago tribune ap.
I had like I was really intolike news.
So, okay, the very first issue Idid the front of the book news
section and the back of the booknews section and then, right
(22:52):
time, me and my right time, LisaCambridge sends over a cassette
tape of what's the 411.
And I get it and I had like alittle mini boom box.
I am running through the officeplaying it so loud for anybody
to listen.
I was like I don't know whothis woman is, I don't know what
(23:14):
this is, but I've never heardanything this amazing before in
my life.
And everybody was like you'reright.
And we ended up and at the timeScott Poston Bryant was doing
the new talent section, so heassigned it to John Morgan to do
Mary for the very, very firstin the next section.
(23:36):
And something happened whereJoan and Mary they couldn't do
it on the same day and I got todo it and everybody was like she
don't like nobody and she lovesyou, Like what is going on?
And we just bonded and so whenwe launched the magazine so that
(23:58):
was the first issue Then we hadlike all this testing and
consumer marketing and stuff.
When we launched the magazinethey asked me to be the next
editor.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I was about to say Mary's reputation back then was
like you said she didn't likeeditor.
I was about to say Mary'sreputation back then was like
you said she didn't like nobody,she was trying to fight people.
You know what I'm saying.
It's incredible that youconnected with her like that
because she was a rough cookieback then.
Yeah, uh-oh, yeah, we got it.
It's cool.
She was a tough cookie backthen, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah.
So then that changed my wholetrajectory as well, because I
then became the new talenteditor.
So when I'm new talent editorediting the next section, I did
everybody Maxwell before he hada record deal right Usher,
brandy, swv, destiny's Child,outk outcast all of those people
(24:54):
are great and and now that wasa really again right place,
right time because having my earto the ground but but they
trusted me to choose thosepeople and all those people end
up miss the elliot.
Everybody blew up and it wasreally, really dope because that
would lead to later down theroad a really great situation
(25:15):
for me because everybody knew mefrom the beginning.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, you were kind of an A&R person before magazine
.
I was, you were I was yeah, youwere finding the talent and
picking it early.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Tell me about your path to getting to becoming the
editor-in-chief.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
So that's where the curve happens that you thought.
So that's when I.
So then I decided I want to gointo fashion.
I still love fashion.
I didn't love any of the fashionI didn't.
I wouldn't say I didn't lovethem, but I just knew I could do
better.
And so I went into Jonathan'soffice and I was like I want to
be the fashion director becausethe fashion director just left.
(25:56):
And he was like you don't knowhow to do that because there's
all this stuff that you have todo when you're a magazine
fashion editor.
And I was like I'll figure itout.
Like I'm black, I'll figure itout.
And so they were like why don'tyou create your own title and
your own, whatever you want todo to be the path to become the
fashion director?
So I came up with this title ofstyle editor and I wanted to
(26:20):
bridge music and culture andfashion together, because I
thought there was a greatopportunity at this time, with
music videos happening, with newartists bubbling up, and then
just the style, the innate styleof hip-hop and R&B, like let's
do it.
So the first shoot I styled wasTyson Beckford when he signed
(26:43):
his deal with Polo.
Wow, that's.
That's an easy layup, becauseit's Tyson plus Polo.
That's easy.
The first cover I style isBiggie and Faith in the
Convertible.
You did that, I did that, damn.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Damn bro.
That might be the mostmemorable cover vibe.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
There's plenty of them, but like that one is like
man and basically the dude theyhired to be the fashion director
, didn't want to do Biggiebecause he's like he's too big.
And I was like what Are youcrazy?
And I was like what, I willdefinitely do that.
And so, right place, right time, I had shot Faith style Faith
(27:36):
the week before for her nextpiece, because I was doing her
for next and because of that.
And then she started bubbling.
They were like, well, let's dothem together.
And so, yeah, it was the themeof the shoot.
Stylistically, the mood boardwas Bonnie and Clyde meets Pulp
Fiction.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
And craziest shoot of my life probably I can imagine,
Can you?
Speaker 1 (28:05):
give me one mini spicy story, without
incriminating anybody orsomething like that, about that
shoot.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I'll say the spiciest thing about the shoot.
I'll tell you a good story.
So you know, vibe was stillyoung, so we didn't have proper
permits, all this and that.
So we're shooting under theBrooklyn Bridge and the cops
pull up.
They're like because we gotlike a location van and it's all
these, you know, it's tons ofpeople and cars, and they're
(28:31):
like what's going on?
And so we tell them and luckilythe cop was like the biggest
biggie fan and he was like yo,y'all, good, y'all can stay here
all night, I'll cover for y'all.
Like.
So that was the energy of thatshoot, right, and I was so happy
(28:53):
because I had never styled acover before.
And then everybody has yourreaction when I tell them like,
they're like, wait, you did that.
Eric Johnson was a photographer.
It was just amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
That's amazing, that's that's special.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
That's special.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
How did it?
How did it, I guess, how did it, how did it feel, I guess, to
become the editor-in-chief ofthis massive cultural magazine,
and how did your life change?
Of course, I'm sure you mademore money and stuff like that,
but how did your life?
Change, being at that highlevel.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
So, real quick, after I became style editor, I became
fashion director.
So the fashion director you getto go to Europe, to the shows.
All this stuff is all long,complicated.
I won't go into the details,but you're sitting front row at
the shows in Europe.
You've got cars and drivers,you're flying business class.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So all of that really changed.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
That was my come up right the first time I got to go
to Milan for the fashion showsas fashion director, quincy came
with us.
So, again, right place, righttime, because Quincy's with us.
I'm sitting having lunch withTom Ford and Quincy, I'm at the
Missoni's house for dinner inLake Cuomo, I'm sitting with
(30:07):
Donatella Versace and Quincy.
I'm in right.
So I was really knighted in away, and so all of these things
again work for my benefit and myfavor.
That when I so, I was inparachuting a story and I got a
call from danielle smith, whowas the editor-in-chief, who was
(30:29):
one of my mentors, she I wrotethe first mary cover for, um, my
life.
So that's the other thing.
It's like the journalism andthe fashion and the styling all
come together and daniellecalled me and said I quit, um,
and I was like I'm quitting too,I'm tired of this, it's too
many changes.
She's like no, no, no, no, no,no, no, do not quit.
(30:52):
I put your hat in the ring, Imean your name in the hat to
succeed me.
So it was kind of interesting,like because she gave me a heads
up, I had a chance to writeeverything down In my mind.
I always wanted to be an editorof my own magazine.
I think, having worked at allthe different parts of the
(31:15):
magazine, I knew all the thingsand I also was, at this point,
kind of high profile because ofthe fashion part and a lot of
people forgot that I was ajournalist first and so when I
became editor-in-chief, my wholelife changed.
I was a journalist first and sowhen I became editor in chief,
my whole life changed.
Like I had a wardrobe budget Ihad, I was flying everywhere.
Suddenly, I'm invited toeverything, right, I'm going to
(31:37):
every record release, every bigparty, every you know anything
in Miami, la, I'm at the Grammys, it's like all the different
things, and then I'm sittingfront row at all the shows.
So my whole life changed.
It was really it was like theDevil Wears Prada in a way, but
it was also different because itwas hip hop right.
So the ability to go to thehood to hear a new artist and
(32:01):
then be sitting front row at afashion show during fashion week
made it a big difference.
It was hard for my friendsbecause it was just different.
When I would go out, peoplewere pulling on me and wanted me
to listen to stuff and handedme tapes and CDs and wanted to
take pictures.
And my friends were like, yo,this is not fun for us.
And so I had to work with myfriends to be like, okay, y'all,
(32:23):
come to the party with me, I'mgoing to be over here working,
y'all have fun.
We're going to have a signal.
Be like, okay, y'all, come tothe party with me, I'm gonna be
over here working, y'all havefun.
We're gonna have a signal if Ineed y'all to come get me.
But I wanted or I had to stoppeople like yo, these are my
people like you, gotta be cool.
It was.
It was a hard adjustment but itwas also a lot of fun.
It was in the golden era ofhip-hop like it was the best
(32:45):
time to be editor-in-chief ofthat magazine and then to have
access to quincy that way, right.
So now I'm like quincy'scalling me, I'm having meetings
with quincy, I'm like it's.
It was incredible.
It was the biggest love affairof my life was having being the
editor-in-chief of vibe.
And then, on top of it, we wonthe national Magazine Award for
(33:07):
general excellence and beat outthe New Yorker Wire, jane and
Gourmet.
And no black magazine ever hadwon that award.
General excellence, never won.
It Beat out the New Yorker.
Never happened before.
And again, my family, my momand my grandmother I had them
(33:28):
come with me to that award.
I didn't know if I was going towin or not.
Like they don't tell you untilyou're in the room and you know.
Like Susan Taylor was there,gayle King was there, like all
these people you know andthey're like yo, he won.
It's like Vibe won.
(33:53):
And the Beyonce face, like atthe Grammy's, like vibe one, and
the beyonce face, like at thegrammy's, like what right?
Yes, it was definitely thebeyonce face of the gram and so,
yeah, so it was.
I mean it's you know, I'm sograteful for the opportunity but
also to be able to lift upblack people, black music
culture, black style, black joy,in a way that we had never seen
before.
It was amazing.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
That's incredible.
Wow, I always wanted to ask youthat how does it feel to be at
that rare air?
It's got to just be for lack ofa better term just a mindfuck,
Just to be all these peoplecoming at you and people calling
you.
This must be a lot to process.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It was a lot to process.
The biggest thing is that Ididn't really have a lot of role
models who had beeneditor-in-chiefs of magazines
that could tell me A lot of it.
It was run and gun.
It's like you're dealing withall these power broker music
label heads because at that timeit was really, really bad and
(34:53):
then you're also dealing with,like these fashion houses.
You're dealing with heads offilm companies and tv divisions
and a lot of advertising stuff,and then you have to keep it
real too, right like, right Like.
You can't get too flomp, flompflomp because the streets ain't
going like that, and so it was alot of pressure.
(35:16):
It was a lot of pressure, butit was.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
It was fun.
It's funny because I meantalking about it.
It's kind of like also remindsme a bit of Mahogany, because
she went to paris and and justgot italy, or she just kind of
got caught up in that world andyou said, unlike you, she didn't
.
Then she had to go back home tochicago and be regular.
(35:39):
You know, it was kind of justright.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's amazing but I think the
difference is you had to stayreal, you had to stay home in it
because of hip hop Like hip hopis not going to let you get too
, dom Perignon because it's likeyou know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
So then you're going to become the editor-in-chief
correct me if I'm wrong of GiantMagazine.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
So, yeah, so I left.
I went to work with Mark Echofor like a year, worked on his
cut and sew, did marketing andall that, okay.
Then I went to Giant Magazine,yeah.
And then I went to Essence.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Okay, so I want to get to the Essence part, but
there's a question I do want toask.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess I'm trying to.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I don't want to be a dickhead, because I know you've
talked about this a lot.
How were you able to deal withthe homophobia in hip-hop during
that era?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Let's definitely not skip over that.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I didn't want to skip I got it on my list.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I was like I got to talk to him about this Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
So this was the other part.
So I'm openly gay, so that'sthe thing.
So, but becoming editor inchief, like that was.
When I'm processing, like I'mlike yo is people, are people
going to come after me becauseof that, like, is it going to be
cool?
So it was this weird thing oflike and I just recently started
talking about this I was alwaysafraid that somebody was going
(37:08):
to hurt me, that somebody wasgoing to attack.
I was always like looking overmy shoulder because I didn't
know right.
The other part was it was areally great opportunity for me
as an openly Black gay man, toeducate the community.
So there were moments where I'dbe in the studio with artists
(37:29):
and they would play the musicand it would be like these crazy
lyrics that were homophobic andmisogynistic and stuff like
that.
And I was sitting there and I'mlike yeah, nah, that's not okay
.
Y'all it's not okay.
And I will say this to thecredit of some of the A&Rs, some
of the label heads, some of theartists listening and having
(37:50):
that conversation with mechanged culture, right, and it
wasn't always easy Break thatdown, break that down, break
that down.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
I would change culture.
I want to hear that.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Well, because, first of all, there's a whole bunch of
black gay men in the musicindustry and women Right gay men
in the music industry and womenRight, and so and I knew they
were that was also in the wholeDL.
Who's the gay rapper, wendyWilliams, all that stuff was
going on.
And so that witch hunt made iteven more crazy.
And for me to be sitting in theseat of power and to be the
(38:25):
person deciding who's on thecover, who's in the pages of the
magazine blah blah, it changedthe power dynamic Right on the
cover, who's in the pages of themagazine blah blah, it changed
the power dynamic right.
And so when I heard peoplerhyming about beating up
faggots' asses andda-da-da-da-da and all this
stuff, or killing women andcrazy stuff, and then to say,
y'all, let's have a conversationaround this.
Let me tell you why this isfucked up, right.
Let me tell you why we're notgoing to kill each other as
(38:45):
Black people.
And some people were having it,some people weren't.
There were fights on setsometimes and disagreements
about people thought I wastrying to make them look gay,
and that I think a lot of thearticles that we did about DL
culture, about HIV and AIDS,about aggressive lesbian culture
(39:07):
, trans artists, all that stuff.
This was way back then, right.
So this is all the stuff now.
That's like normal.
We talk about all this stuffnow.
We identify people by theirpronouns, we're fighting for our
trans sisters, but this isstuff that I was doing in the
90s, right, yeah, 30 years ago,right.
(39:27):
So I think that's how it helpedshift and change culture.
Because, you know, billy Portertells a story now of when he
was in Next and was scared to dothe shoot with Vibe because he
thought it was going to behomophobic.
And then when I show up at theset, he's like exhales and then
(39:48):
thought he was going to do allthe most.
I was like, brother, trust me,you're going to look fly.
And so that stuff meanssomething.
Kevin Avianz, right, featuredon Renaissance.
All this and that was in vibebecause of me, right.
And so that's what I mean.
It's like I was.
I'm grateful that I had theforesight to push for all of
that stuff early so that we thenhave language that we can
(40:12):
understand diversity, equity,inclusion within the Black
community and all ourintersections.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know if fortune is the
right term, but like coming up.
I grew up in this big, bigapartment building 12 floors, 12
apartments per floor, and itwas you know, plus the block.
So there were, you know, gaykids around, I think, the woman
who should take care of me atthe school, one of her sons.
(40:38):
So I never tripped, I never.
I never tripped Right.
But I know that I'm an anomaly,right, you know hip hop, I'm
not an anomaly.
So I was going to ask you howyou dealt with that, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Yeah, and there were people that really had my back
and really covered me, Right.
And I will say, and two peopleI will call out specifically,
Kevin Lyles would meet with meat least once a month to make
sure I was good mentally,emotionally, psychologically.
He was like I just, and it wasno real agenda.
(41:14):
He's like I can push my artists, but you got music editors and
I'm going to send you the stuff.
Julie will send you the stuff,all the things, but are you good
, Right?
And the other part, Sylvia Rohn, would do that too, Right.
And the other part, Sylvia Rohn, would do that too and that.
So, between those two and Quincy, you know people have my back
and I think they knew it wasn'teasy.
(41:35):
You know it wasn't.
I remember, you know, having afight argument on the phone with
Chris Lighty, because he said Iwas trying to out Q-tip one
time and I was like what are youtalking about?
And he's like no, but you puthim on the cover in this article
.
I said, but Chris, did you readthe article?
And he said I hadn't read thearticle.
I said, bruh, get off my phone,read the article, call me back.
(41:59):
But those are the things that Iwas dealing with on top of
everything else.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, wow, well, everything else, yeah, wow, wow,
I'm glad.
I'm glad there was a supportsystem there for you, though,
you know.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
I'm grateful, tell me about Essence.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
All right.
So you know, I've been workingon my own.
I've been working at thesesmaller magazines and
publications, and Angela ByrneMurray was the editor-in-chief
of Essence when I went there.
She went to Hampton so we wouldbe judging at the National
Magazine Awards and then wewould just be talking about like
(42:36):
Chris Brown and Rihanna andjust different things, and like
I have my ear to the ground andshe's, you know, she's like
black, middle-class womanworking at Essence and living in
New Jersey with her husband andtwo kids.
So I'm like here's what's goingon on the streets.
So she was like, would youconsider coming to Essence?
And I was like, hmm, let methink about that.
I was like, so what's the deal?
(42:57):
And she's like, well, you wouldcome and oversee the website
because we need somebody thatunderstands younger culture,
younger women, what they're into, music, all the things.
And you have the pedigree andthe knowledge and I thought
about it and I thought you knowwhat it's a legacy brand?
(43:17):
It's a brand obviously I grewup with.
One of my first writing pieceswas in Ebony.
It was, in essence, underHarriet Cole.
Okay, gordon Chambers was theirkind of new talent editor, so
he would write for me, I wouldwrite for him.
But I just had so much respectfor Susan Taylor and what she
(43:38):
and the owners had created right, what these Black men and this
Black woman created and Ithought you know what?
Let me do it, I'm going to gothere, let me learn.
And I thought you know what?
Let me do it, I'm going to gothere, let me learn.
And it was great.
It was great being there Againanother golden era of the
Essence Festival.
So I started working on thewebsite.
We did three makeovers of thewebsite, redesigns.
(44:01):
I'm the one that launched theirTwitter account and their
Instagram account, because thatwas happening at that time and
they weren't on.
Let's go, black women are overindexing on Twitter.
Let's get it.
Yeah, all of that Exactly.
And so I did that stuff.
(44:22):
And then they realized I didn'thave all the talent connections.
So they were like would youconsider moving to the magazine?
And I was like what's the role?
So Mickey Taylor had just leftand they needed someone to book
the covers and oversee all thecovers, but also to manage
celebrity relationships acrossthe brand.
So that included the magazine,the covers, exclusives for the
(44:47):
website, work on the festival,work on Black women in music and
Black women in Hollywood.
So I was like let's go, it waswonderful, right, let's go, it
was wonderful, right.
And I Michelle Ebanks wasreally my mentor there and
really took me under her wingand taught me so much about
business which then enabled meto, once I left Essence, to
(45:09):
build my own business and my ownbrand.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Wow, Wow, Okay.
And I saw you went to India,did a little little.
You pray love in India.
How long?
Speaker 2 (45:18):
were you in India?
Speaker 1 (45:20):
He prayed love in India.
How long?
How long were you in India?
I was there for six weeks.
That's a nice run.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
That's a nice run.
My Indian friends are like wecan't believe you stayed there
that long.
But it was transformative andit was a moment that I needed to
reach.
I needed to just a readjustmentin my life and I got it there
and I came back and was a newperson.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Well, just give me a little bit like this what was it
like in India?
Like I've never been, like howwas it?
It's so.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
India is very my Indian friends say this, so no
one will attack me they say it'svery confronting the culture
and the environment there.
So it is very, very rich andit's very, very poor and the
poverty is abject poverty, Likeit's nothing you've ever even
can imagine in New York right,or in the US.
(46:13):
And so it's walking betweenthose worlds, but it's also
deeply spiritual, so it's Idon't know, but it's also deeply
spiritual, so it's I don't know.
It's almost like being in amovie, bro.
It's like it's so beautiful.
The people, the culture is soold, the history is so old, they
know who they are and it was.
It's very family oriented, butthen it's the music, the culture
(46:35):
, the colors, the fashion.
People are like doing bigtechnology, like all this stuff
is really happening there.
So it was just really for me itwas like seeing the world
through a different lens andreminding myself that I could do
whatever I wanted to do.
Right, I just had to likereally dream.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Yeah, yeah, and when you get back from India again.
Correct me if I got thetimeline wrong.
You work at Afropunk.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
So I started Native Son and then I go work at
Afropunk and so that was atAfropunk from 2018 to 2020.
And then COVID hit, and thenthat was the end of Afropunk.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Afropunk was great.
It was great, great.
I went in 2018.
It was brooklyn.
It was crazy.
I was like this is crazy, thisis amazing.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah and it's just to organize a community who
loved punk music, who lovedrock and roll, who loved black
music and black culture and werefreedom fighters, right, and
about equity and inclusion anddiversity before all.
(47:45):
That was the thing around theglobe, right?
So we were brooklyn, london,paris, atlanta, johannesburg,
and I would get to go to allthose spaces.
So then, to be with blackpeople in all those spaces in
one year, it was amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
It was incredible.
That's yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
Tell me about native son.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
So, native son, I'm in India, I'm trying to figure
out what I'm going to do and Ithought about all the black, gay
and now you say queer men whocame before me that didn't have
the privilege to live out and bewho they authentically were, a
lot of them who died during theAIDS crisis.
And then I could be like Edwin,chief of Vibe, right as a black
(48:33):
gay man.
And so I thought what I learnedat Essence was seeing Black
women support other Black women.
I wanted something like thatfor my community and that didn't
exist.
So I kind of took like what Ilearned at Essence, what I
learned at Vibe, what I learnedat Afropunk, and use all of that
(48:54):
the marketing, the organizing,the principles, the mission of
it.
Who just won the Tony and theOscar for Wicked?
(49:23):
Derek Adams, dr David Johns,phil Wilson, all these men right
, and we had Duran Bernardperform and it was amazing and
it went to our surprise, colemanDomingo with his award, but we
had 3.6 billion mediaimpressions, damn.
So it's a thing.
It's a thing thing and it'sabout to be a real thing.
(49:45):
I'm about to say I know you'reabout to ratchet it up even
further Yesterday's price ain'ttoday's price To think that
there's a community out therethat didn't feel seen, that
didn't know kind of who they areand had to hide in the closet
(50:08):
for safety and for their lives,that now they don't have to do
that and that it could be thisbig it's a blessing, man.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
It's a blessing.
That's great.
That's great.
Now, did you do something withthe Met Gala this year?
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Were you involved with the?
We did.
We did like a brunch the daybefore where we invited all
these Black queer influencersand stylists and stuff like that
.
And then I still write too.
Like I still write fordifferent magazines and stuff
like that.
You know, I'm just I'm reallyfocused on telling amazing Black
stories for different magazinesand stuff like that.
You know, I'm just I'm reallyfocused on telling amazing Black
stories and amplifying them andsupporting and uplifting Black
(50:46):
creativity and culture and ourhistory.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
And now you're coming full circle.
You're a professor at FIT, I'ma professor at FIT.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
That's crazy.
Listen, I'm West Indian Tenjobs, but I teach journalism.
I teach journalism, I teachmagazine feature writing, public
relations work.
I'm full-time faculty.
I have four classes.
I have like 80 students.
I'm there three days a week andI love it.
(51:14):
I love being around youngpeople and I learn stuff from
them.
They learn stuff from me.
There's not a lot of Blackprofessors there and in academia
across the industry, I thinkless than 3%.
So what's happening, which iskind of cool, is most of my
students are POC or LGBTQ andthey feel safe with me.
(51:38):
I bring in other Black andpeople of color professionals
and media to talk to them andthey feel safe with me.
I bring in other Black andpeople of color professionals
and media to talk to them andthey love it.
That's dope man.
So tell me what's next?
I'm in Mexico City writing abook and that's the next big
thing is, you know, I've neverwritten my own book.
I've done four words for peopleand other things, so I'm doing
that.
It's hard because it's a lot ofstories that people don't know
(52:02):
about my journey, about my life.
So I'm going to bare my souland I think it's important
because, again, I just want tokeep inspiring the next
generations.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yo, I really appreciate it.
This was good.
This was good.
I learned a lot.
Even my research.
I still kept learning shit.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
You had good research , though.
You had good research, yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
I always like to research.
I don't like to.
I notice a lot of podcasts.
People just kind of talk andI'm like I want to have a focus,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
And I don't want people to be like damn, you
didn't know that it was kind ofmore basic stuff.
Like you being from Cincinnati,how do you not know that you
went to Hampton, we went toblack schools.
We know that type of shit.
Got two things Give me one morespicy story and then I got two
or three quick shot questions.
(52:55):
Again, don't incriminate nobody, don't hurt nobody like that.
It could be anything you know.
Again, don't incriminate,nobody, don't hurt.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
You don't know that.
You know it could be anything.
I'll say, when I was in Milanwith Quincy, one of the best
moments was we were at theMasoni's house for dinner and
Naomi and I are running aroundhanging out and then she's like
come into the bathroom with meand I was like okay, girl, like
(53:22):
what's happening?
And then she sits down to usethe bathroom and is just
straight talking to me like I'mher girlfriend.
And I was like yeah, and I waslike this is crazy and will
definitely be in the book.
I mean it's silly, but it's alittle spicy.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
Yeah, yeah, okay, that's cool.
Okay, these are the three quickburns, and then we're done.
Give me one or two of yourfavorite artists of all time.
Ooh, okay.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
I'm going to say Mary J Blige.
Okay, like my life, to me isundisputable, right Cover to
cover undisputable.
So I'm going to hands down tentoes down.
Mary J Blige is one.
Wow, can we say Quincy's anartist.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
Say anything, it's your call, your list.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
I'm going to say Quincy, because what I think is
amazing about Quincy is his earright To think about, you know,
soundtracks from movies to thinkabout.
We Are the World to think aboutMichael Jackson, to think about
his own accused juke joint, allRight, and the fact that he
(54:46):
also was humanitarian was aboutcommunity and culture and
lifting other people up.
Even so, he died, was stilldiscovering new talent.
I have to give it up to Quincynew talent.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Um, I have to give it up to quincy, okay, okay and
and I agree with you, 100, I'dsay 10 tones down.
My life is the best producedalbum puffing them ever did.
Period.
Top to bottom.
Top to bottom, you know, andthat's great they done.
They did a lot of great albums.
Yeah, top to bottom.
That is that's my pinnacle.
Like this is the best thingthey've ever put together.
(55:23):
Yeah, give me one or two ofyour favorite authors, oh well.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
James Baldwin.
So native son is named afterJames Baldwin's notes of a
native son.
So that was his firstcollection of essays.
That's the type of book I'mworking on is a collection of
essays so kind of inspired JamesBond went to me for sure, and
then I'm going to say MayaAngelou.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Okay, okay.
Yeah, he probably lived inHarlem and a lot of people
didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
I know which is crazy , that people didn't know that.
People did not know that.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
I found out I was on a video set I can't remember who
it was, but it doesn't matterand I was talking to one of the
guys in the production, whiteCat actually, and he lived in
Harlem.
He lived on that block on 120th, and he said that when he went
to look at the apartment, therealtor told him okay, you know,
they made it, he made off withit, they accepted and he said
(56:22):
okay, listen, you have to becool and quiet because my angel
lives on this block, so youcould literally walk out your
door and see Oprah coming up ina car and all those kind of
luminaries coming up in a car,but you can't trip out.
You got to be cool.
And that's what I found outthat she lived on that block.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
Amazing yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
Last question Give me one or two of your favorite
designers.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
So you know, I listen to your podcast, so I'm trying
not to relish.
I'm not going to try to relish,it's good.
So I'm going to steal one ofhis, which was Tom Ford.
I think tom ford, you know justthe pinnacle of luxury
understands the assignment,understands how to create
(57:09):
something and make it go viral.
Basically, um, I would say cocochanel, because to create
something that was reallycreated for women, by women,
like by a woman for women, butto grow it out of that era like
(57:30):
post um, nazi Germany and allthis and that, and really grow
her own brand as a woman and theway that it stands up now I
would say her.
And then, third, trying to thinkof who I want to crown for the
last, okay, I'm going to sayVirgil Abloh.
(57:51):
And I'm going to say VirgilAbloh because, just, I mean the
fact that he could take fashionand culture and art and commerce
and put it all together, andthe fact that it took them so
long to even get to Pharrell toreplace, because they were like,
who do we get that?
(58:11):
Can understand this assignment?
You got to give it up forVirgil Abel.
And to be the first blackdesigner, the head of creative
director of a European fashionbrand like that.
That was cool, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
I still marvel at how he did so much in such a short
period of time Incredible,really incredible.
He was doing OV, he was doingthe Nike stuff, he did all the
white, he was DJing.
It was like how did you do thisstuff, bro, here?
Thank you, thank you, man.
Speaker 2 (58:40):
I appreciate that.
Thank you, brother.
Speaker 1 (58:41):
Yes, I really enjoyed that.
I really enjoyed that Good,good.
Thank you, jeff, for having me.
This is good Thank you man.
Have fun in Mexico City.
Good luck with the book.
I can't wait to read it.
Yes, it's going to be.
You can catch Mixed andMastered on Apple Podcasts,
spotify, iheart or wherever youget your podcasts.
Hit that follow button, leave areview and tell a friend I'm
(59:05):
your host, jeffrey Sledge.
Mixed and Mastered is producedand distributed by Merrick
Studios.
This week, on Mixed and Mastered, we're talking with
Emile Wilberkin, a culturalforce who helped shape how we
see fashion, music, media andidentity.
From leading Vibe magazine tobecoming an editor-in-chief at
Giant magazine and a New YorkTimes bestselling author,
emile's career has spannedeverything from BET, essence,
(00:22):
afropunk and beyond, bet,essence, afropunk and beyond.
Emil is also the founder ofNative Son, a platform
empowering Black, gay and queermen, and a professor at FIT,
shaping the next generation ofjournalists.
This is Mixed and Mastered withEmil Wilberkin.
Welcome to Mixed and Mastered,a podcast where the stories of
(00:44):
the music industry come to life.
I'm Jeffrey Sledge, bringingyou real conversations with the
people who have shaped the soundof music.
We're pulling back the curtainon what it takes to make it in
the music business.
These are the stories you won'thear anywhere else, told by the
people who live them.
This is Mixed and Mastered.
Live them.
(01:04):
This is Mixed and Mastered.
Mixed and Mastered with a bigmaca maca.
Emil Wilberkin, how you doing,man, I'm good, jeff.
Thank you for having me.
Thank you for coming on.
I really appreciate it, man,let's jump right into it.
So you're born in Cincinnati,ohio, or born in Cleveland?
Were you born in Cleveland orCincinnati.
So that's a great question.
I was born in Cleveland, bornin Cincinnati, ohio, or born in
Cleveland?
Were you born in Cleveland orwere you born in Cincinnati?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
So that's a great question.
I was born in Cleveland, raisedin Cincinnati.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Yeah, yeah, my mom, that's a long story.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Are you going to tell it?
Well, I mean, so I was adopted.
So I was born in Cleveland andthen my adoptive parents came
from Cincinnati to adopt methere.
So I have a lot of love forCleveland, but I was raised most
of my life in Cincinnati, gotit, got it, got it, got it.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, my mom's side is from Kentucky, so I would go
down there and see her and we'dcome up as a kid, we'd go to
Kings Island or Kings theamusement park, yeah.
I've been there.
It's the great amusement parkthat would be the highlight of
our summer.
Exactly you might have crossedpaths with kids that have not
(02:18):
even known it exactly.
So I was reading and I wasreading and you, you got into
the fashion side of things veryearly.
Um, as a teen, I guess, likeyou know, kind of figured out
that was one of your, one ofyour big passions.
I wanted you to talk to me alittle bit about that.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So I have to give credit where credit is due.
My interest in fashion solelywas inspired by my mom.
My mom was um.
You know my mother was.
She had her her undergrad andher master's in music.
She was the minister of musicat our church.
(02:56):
She also was an administrativelaw judge for the state of ohio.
So my mom had her doctorate inpsychology.
Like my mother was gangster.
But my mother from Des Moines,iowa, met and married my dad in
New York.
So my mother dressed like a NewYork woman, like even back in
(03:17):
Cincinnati.
So she would go to work andhave on like a Halston red,
ultra suede wrap dress with likeknee-high boots, big sunglasses
, a wig and a mink coat on hershoulders, like she was killing
it.
So I almost didn't have achoice.
This is how my mom's wasdressing all the time and even
(03:39):
if she was dropping me off ofschool she would have on like a
nightgown and put a mink coatover it and have like this
sparkly hat with red lipstickand big Christian Dior glasses.
The kids in Cincinnati thoughtmy mom was crazy.
She was fly, but they don'tknow what fly is there like that
.
So a lot of my interests camefrom my mom, right, the big kind
(04:02):
of my big, big falling in lovewith fashion really came through
the movie Mahogany with DianaRoss and Billy Dee Williams,
right, and it's classic.
And just seeing that wholejourney of her, you know loving
fashion and studying fashiondesign and illustration, and
then you know, not becoming afashion designer but becoming a
(04:27):
model, but being immersed inthat whole world and then having
her own collection.
That really stuck with me.
And then at the same time oneof my cousins in St Croix was
studying fashion in Miami at, Ithink at Parsons, and so she was
showing me how to do fashionillustration.
So it was all of those thingstogether and I mean, at 12 years
(04:49):
old I was reading GQ and Ebonyman and I was like I just I fell
in love with fashion.
And then the last part was oneof my high school teachers, mr
Ferguson, was in the EbonyFashion Fair.
He was the fashion fair model.
So he was in the Ebony FashionShows, he had been photographed
(05:10):
in GQ and he studied paintingunder Picasso.
So those were the yeah, sothese were like all the things
that just really got meinterested in fashion.
And then, I think too, comingof age when music videos were
starting right, so it was alljust seeing all of these things
together.
There was something I wanted todo in fashion.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Let me start by a quick question.
Do you think Mahogany could bemade again Like could that be a
remake, or is it just twodifferent time periods?
Speaker 2 (05:43):
No, I think there are definitely conversations that
people want to do a remake ofthis two different time period.
I think no, I think there aredefinitely conversations that
people want to do a remake and,um, I think it could.
These remakes scare mesometimes because they steal the
moment.
I think part of the moment thatmade mahogany so amazing was
that time period right in thelate 70s, early 80s, and the
(06:03):
fashion and even how billy dwilliams is dressed, but her
fashion and her style was justreally off the chain yeah, I
agree, I agree and and kind ofmahogany, kind of exposing the
european side of things and howthey.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
yeah, it's kind of weird and stuff that we we know
that a lot more now, but backthen that was like seeing
another planet.
It was like, oh, we didn't evenknow it got down like that.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
And the racism and all that yeah exactly Racism and
all that stuff.
Yeah, it was interesting, man,wait, I don't want to know if
I'm going to speak about it asan influencer.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
You know what I mean.
That was my point.
See, it would change and itwould be that, and that's why
I'm like ah, you know, a millionfollowers on Twitter.
I don't know if I'll you know.
That's not what this was.
That's not what that was.
We're on the same page.
We're both proud HBU grads Iwent to.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Morgan, I went to Hampton.
That's right HBCU.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
When you went, it was still HSU.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
No, no, no.
I think the year before I wentis when it shifted.
Okay, jeff, what you're goingto learn about me on this
podcast is most of my influenceis from my family.
That's great.
That's great.
Yeah, no, it's great.
So my dad went to Hampton, myolder brother went to Hampton.
(07:35):
I basically come from a Hamptonfamily.
I was the eighth person in myfamily to go to Hampton, so my
aunt.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
You have legacy.
You have legacy, kim.
Oh, I Hampton, so I'm superlegacy.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
My uncle was head of ROTC, my aunt met her husband,
my uncle there.
It's just I'm legacy.
So when I was growing up, likewe would go to Hampton for, like
my father's you know,graduation anniversaries, when
my brother went I would go andwe would drop him off, so always
going down there to pick him up.
(08:05):
So I was raised in a superHampton family and there was a
joke that my mother would say,because my mother, you know, she
went to Drake in Des Moines, soshe's like I'm mad, I miss my
HBCU experience.
But her sister went to Hampton,right, so she would say you can
go wherever you want, anyschool you want in the country,
in the world, your tuition willbe paid at Hampton.
(08:29):
And so, you know, I was like,say less, like I'm going to
Hampton Because I was raised inthat world, like the Hampton
choir would come to Cincinnatiand would stay at our house and
like we would have dinner forthem with all the alumni.
So I was really raised in thatenvironment.
So I actually wanted to go toHampton and it was a beautiful
(08:53):
experience.
But it changed from HamptonInstitute the year before I went
.
I got you, got you, yeah, yeah,yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Yeah, I went to visit Hampton's camp to like.
Two of my best friends wentthere and this girl I dated in
high school went there.
So I went there one time and Iliked it.
It was, but it was veryinteresting because that camp is
very isolated, yeah, like it'svery kind of in its own world
kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
And in the country, right.
So you know, I would call myparents and be like it's cool,
but like everyone say hello tome, like what is going on, and
they're like you're in the South, like you say hello back sir,
and I was like, oh, okay, but itwas great.
I mean I met so many peoplefrom New York you know, because
it's very DMV heavy and New York, new Jersey, tri-state,
(09:44):
connecticut.
I DMV heavy and New York, newJersey, tri-state, connecticut.
I met Angelique there, many ofmy.
Jocelyn Glooper was my bigsister at Hampton.
Wow, Wow.
Yeah, like.
And I met her on the yard, likeso by the time I graduated from
high school.
Now I'm like super fly, right,I'm wearing Willie Smith, I got
(10:04):
a high top fade, I'm doing allthe things right.
So Jocelyn Cooper walks up onme on the campus and is like
where are you from?
And I was like Cincinnati.
Like what an attitude.
And she was like there's no way, you're from Cincinnati dressed
as fly.
And I was like I'm fromCincinnati, ohio.
And from that minute on she'slike I'm your big sister.
(10:27):
And she took me under her wing.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, Beautiful, that's beautiful, and I read
that when you, after yougraduated, you spend a little
time, you did the schoolnewspaper correct and, hampton,
were you part of the school in?
Speaker 2 (10:38):
the mass media arts department.
So the fashion thing kind ofgot killed because my parents
you know both my parents werelawyers.
My father was also anarchitectural engineer.
So they were like the fashionthing we're not so big on that.
You know, traditional Blackfamily, caribbean family they're
like you need to do somethingpractical.
(10:58):
So I ended up studying massmedia arts and so Hampton has
one of the best.
Now it's the Scripps HowardSchool.
They have one of the best massmedia arts and communications
schools at HBCU them and Howardand so I studied that.
I became the editor of theschool paper and I figured that
(11:20):
through internships at theCincinnati Enquirer people were
like you should probably go intomagazines because you like
fashion and style and culture,newspapers and fires and board
meetings and all that may not beyour thing.
And then I realized I mean, Inever thought about like I've
been reading GQ.
Like I said, since I was a kidI never thought about, oh, I
(11:42):
could actually do that as a job.
So I really leaned into that.
When I graduated I was editorof the school paper, I was the
official fly boy at that pointand my goal was to move to New
York and that was as a kid Iwanted to live in New York
(12:02):
because I would just see it onTV and go to family reunions and
think about fashion.
Everything was in New York.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
And then you spent a little time in London before
grad school, correct?
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah.
So my goal was like, how do Iget to New York?
So I applied for jobs.
So I was interviewing at CondéNast, at Vogue, and I was
interviewing at Rolling Stoneand Newsweek and all these
places.
And then I applied to gradschool.
So I applied to NYU forAmerican Studies.
I applied to ColumbiaJournalism School, so I get into
(12:32):
Columbia.
But I was so busy focusing ontrying to get to New York that I
didn't have a plan for like, oh, I got into grad school, I
don't have anything to do forthe summer.
So, as I said, my father's fromSt Croix, my mother's from Des
Moines, iowa, you're going towork.
This ain't.
No.
What do they call it?
Skip year, jump year, whateverit is.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
You're going to work.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
So I found an internship program through
Boston University where youcould study British media and
advertising in London and internat a magazine.
So I got the internship, whichwas great, wow.
And Jeff, let me tell yousomething, because you're a
music person, a culture personthis is the Batman rave summer.
This is the summer when soul tosoul is at its height, and I'm
(13:21):
in London at that moment in time, right, and I'm in London at
that moment in time.
So it's like it's cool to beblack and it's like all these
raves and ecstasy and all thisstuff.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
And that's the fly you know fly.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I mean, it was an Afrocentric thing was happening
with hip hop, so it was a really, really great time to be in
London, so I studied there andthat's how I spent my summer
before I came to great time tobe in London, so I studied there
, and that's how I spent mysummer before I came to New York
to go to Columbia.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
That's amazing.
That's amazing.
It's like you hit London at theperfect time, right, yeah, it
was a setup.
It was a setup, yeah.
So then you come back and go toColumbia, yeah so then you come
back and go to Columbia.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Yeah, go to Columbia and study magazine journalism,
journalism and magazinejournalism.
So it's a one year program.
So I get my master's and I justmeet all these amazing people
because I'm my friend.
His mother was like I think shewas head of either programming
(14:26):
or advertising at BLS at thetime, so I was able to go to all
these like parties.
I remember going to a party inthe village for Heavy D.
I remember going to Red Alert's, like big birthday party at the
Red Parrot, like.
So I'm doing all this while I'min grad school.
So my professors are like, whatare you doing?
(14:47):
And I was like I'm outside,like I'm young.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
I'm outside.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I'm young.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yeah, I'm in New York City.
What are?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
we doing, you know.
And then I was friends withfrom Hampton Wendell Haskins and
Jack Benson, so they wereputting me on and so I was just
like going to all these flyparties.
And so I had a cultural affairsreporting professor named
Samuel G Friedman.
He's still at Columbia.
He said why don't you writeabout hip hop?
(15:15):
He's like you're going to allthese parties, like why don't
you write about it?
And that changed everything,because at that moment I just
started leaning in and because Ihad so many plugs in the music
industry jocelyn, everybody, Iwould just they would hook me up
to do interviews with people.
So I'm like writing all thisstuff as a grad student new to
(15:38):
new york from cincinnati, by wayof anthem, and that literally
changed the whole trajectory ofmy career.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
That's incredible, man.
That's you've been in the rightplaces.
You've like been in the rightplace at the right time.
It kind of keeps working inyour favor.
That's a beautiful thing.
I'm going to skip forward justa tad because I really want to
hear.
I know you were part of theinitial core group for Vibe
magazine and I want to hearabout that.
(16:08):
But I also want to hear about,like the conversations you guys
were having in developing Vibeand like what the mission
statement was, what you wantedit to be.
I want to hear about that, okay.
And the conversations withQuincy.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And the conversations with Quincy as well, of course,
of course.
So I mean.
So basically it was JonathanVan Meter who was chosen to be
the first editor.
It was very controversialbecause he was a white gay guy,
but he, I had met him through abunch of folks who worked in
magazines and there was thisthing called the Last Thursday
of the Month Club and we wouldgo and just have drinks and we
(16:44):
were all young and like someoneworked at Rolling Stones,
someone worked at Vandy Fair, acouple of people worked at the
Village Voice, and in that groupwe were also going out to clubs
because, you know, early daysof hip hop, club music is
thriving, all this thing, djculture, and so we would just go
out and we were like, wouldn'tit be dope if we had our own
magazine that focused on musicand fashion?
(17:06):
And that was really how itstarted.
So that's us going to the Roxyand then all these other places,
and then we would go back tohis place and like order
breakfast and just chop it up.
And that's how the idea of uscreating our own magazine,
parallel Path, time Warner,forms, their merger and they're
(17:30):
developing new projects.
They have a magazine wing, sothey develop Martha Stewart
Living out of that.
So they had a call out to startnew magazines and then Quincy
and Russell together went tothem and said we want to do a
magazine that focuses on Blackmusic and culture and
(17:51):
specifically hip-hop.
So then it gets all politicright with white business folks
with Black culture and all thethings, and so they're like, yes
, we want to do this magazine,but they start looking for
editors.
And then it's Time Inc.
So they want somebody who'slike super duper, dope editor.
(18:11):
And they end up landing withjohnson.
So then that is kind ofcontroversial because it's like
a white gay guy is going to editthis hip-hop magazine.
So russell's like I'm out.
And then quincy's like I reallybelieve in this.
And so johnson said, well, Ihave all these friends that work
in different places and they'resuper talented and this and
(18:32):
that, can they come work here?
And they said, well, they haveto go through the editorial
process and hiring andinterviewing like everybody else
, but if they're qualified,let's bring them in vibe.
With the addition of ScottPolson, bryant, joe Morgan,
(18:54):
kevin who else?
Kevin Powell, greg Tate wasbrought on to write and a lot of
other folks, right, a lot ofother iconic folks.
So that was how it started.
The initial idea was hip-hop wasthe center, and then how did it
(19:15):
touch film, fashion or allthese writing, literature, all
of that?
But hip-hop and r&b were thecore, and so that was really
interesting, even on like tryingto pick the first cover because
we knew it had to be hip hopbut we didn't want it to be like
(19:36):
commercial out the gate and hiphop was kind of borderline
commercial at that point.
And so the idea I think,talking to Tommy Boy Records and
stuff like that, the idea cameabout about Tretch, about about
tretch and somebody that wasreally hard on the streets had
(19:57):
not fully blown up yet, but itwas kind of the perfect storm as
well.
Opp was bubbling, so that's howwe landed on the track.
He was a great looking kid.
He was a great looking, greatlooking kid, yeah, yeah, and it
was, you know, and he kind ofrepresented hip-hop.
But he, like black american manand and the the secret sauce of
vibe, was really the greattalent that we were covering.
(20:19):
But it was also the photography, the graphic design and the
writing and that's what this.
This moved us out of the wayfrom everybody because quincy
wanted it to kind of feel likeRolling Stone means Vanity Fair,
but through this black lens,and that's.
That was kind of the formula.
(20:39):
Yeah, I remember, I rememberthat.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I remember how the magazine was bigger, like it was
actually bigger than like thesource.
It was like bigger and they andit was very Vanity Fair-ish, it
was very fashion-y.
You could look through it.
It was like you would lookthrough it and then you would go
back and read the stories,right, right.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
You would look at the pictures and you know the thing
is the great writing, a lot ofthat was taken from the work
that was done at the VillageVoice with you know, with Greg
Tate and with Joan Scott waswriting there so many brilliant,
brilliant Barry Michael Cooper,like all these amazing writers.
(21:23):
And so having that type ofsensibility with the writing and
then really bringing in likenew writers and just kind of
having something that wasdifferent, including dancehall,
reggae into it, underground clubmusic, but it always had to be
from the center point of likehip hop and black music.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
And we'll be right back, ready to launch your
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And now back to our show.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
So now I read that you were the fashion person when
it first started.
No, am I wrong?
Okay, okay, correct me, correctme.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
So I started.
This is going to be funny.
I started as the news editor.
I was really because I've goneto columbia and I've been
writing for, like the new yorktimes, chicago tribune ap.
I had like I was really intolike news.
So, okay, the very first issue Idid the front of the book news
section and the back of the booknews section and then, right
(22:52):
time, me and my right time, LisaCambridge sends over a cassette
tape of what's the 411.
And I get it and I had like alittle mini boom box.
I am running through the officeplaying it so loud for anybody
to listen.
I was like I don't know whothis woman is, I don't know what
(23:14):
this is, but I've never heardanything this amazing before in
my life.
And everybody was like you'reright.
And we ended up and at the timeScott Poston Bryant was doing
the new talent section, so heassigned it to John Morgan to do
Mary for the very, very firstin the next section.
(23:36):
And something happened whereJoan and Mary they couldn't do
it on the same day and I got todo it and everybody was like she
don't like nobody and she lovesyou, Like what is going on?
And we just bonded and so whenwe launched the magazine so that
(23:58):
was the first issue Then we hadlike all this testing and
consumer marketing and stuff.
When we launched the magazinethey asked me to be the next
editor.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
I was about to say Mary's reputation back then was
like you said she didn't likeeditor.
I was about to say Mary'sreputation back then was like
you said she didn't like nobody,she was trying to fight people.
You know what I'm saying.
It's incredible that youconnected with her like that
because she was a rough cookieback then.
Yeah, uh-oh, yeah, we got it.
It's cool.
She was a tough cookie backthen, you know.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah.
So then that changed my wholetrajectory as well, because I
then became the new talenteditor.
So when I'm new talent editorediting the next section, I did
everybody Maxwell before he hada record deal right Usher,
brandy, swv, destiny's Child,outk outcast all of those people
(24:54):
are great and and now that wasa really again right place,
right time because having my earto the ground but but they
trusted me to choose thosepeople and all those people end
up miss the elliot.
Everybody blew up and it wasreally, really dope because that
would lead to later down theroad a really great situation
(25:15):
for me because everybody knew mefrom the beginning.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah, you were kind of an A&R person before magazine
.
I was, you were I was yeah, youwere finding the talent and
picking it early.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Tell me about your path to getting to becoming the
editor-in-chief.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
So that's where the curve happens that you thought.
So that's when I.
So then I decided I want to gointo fashion.
I still love fashion.
I didn't love any of the fashionI didn't.
I wouldn't say I didn't lovethem, but I just knew I could do
better.
And so I went into Jonathan'soffice and I was like I want to
be the fashion director becausethe fashion director just left.
(25:56):
And he was like you don't knowhow to do that because there's
all this stuff that you have todo when you're a magazine
fashion editor.
And I was like I'll figure itout.
Like I'm black, I'll figure itout.
And so they were like why don'tyou create your own title and
your own, whatever you want todo to be the path to become the
fashion director?
So I came up with this title ofstyle editor and I wanted to
(26:20):
bridge music and culture andfashion together, because I
thought there was a greatopportunity at this time, with
music videos happening, with newartists bubbling up, and then
just the style, the innate styleof hip-hop and R&B, like let's
do it.
So the first shoot I styled wasTyson Beckford when he signed
(26:43):
his deal with Polo.
Wow, that's.
That's an easy layup, becauseit's Tyson plus Polo.
That's easy.
The first cover I style isBiggie and Faith in the
Convertible.
You did that, I did that, damn.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Damn bro.
That might be the mostmemorable cover vibe.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
There's plenty of them, but like that one is like
man and basically the dude theyhired to be the fashion director
, didn't want to do Biggiebecause he's like he's too big.
And I was like what Are youcrazy?
And I was like what, I willdefinitely do that.
And so, right place, right time, I had shot Faith style Faith
(27:36):
the week before for her nextpiece, because I was doing her
for next and because of that.
And then she started bubbling.
They were like, well, let's dothem together.
And so, yeah, it was the themeof the shoot.
Stylistically, the mood boardwas Bonnie and Clyde meets Pulp
Fiction.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
And craziest shoot of my life probably I can imagine,
Can you?
Speaker 1 (28:05):
give me one mini spicy story, without
incriminating anybody orsomething like that, about that
shoot.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
I'll say the spiciest thing about the shoot.
I'll tell you a good story.
So you know, vibe was stillyoung, so we didn't have proper
permits, all this and that.
So we're shooting under theBrooklyn Bridge and the cops
pull up.
They're like because we gotlike a location van and it's all
these, you know, it's tons ofpeople and cars, and they're
(28:31):
like what's going on?
And so we tell them and luckilythe cop was like the biggest
biggie fan and he was like yo,y'all, good, y'all can stay here
all night, I'll cover for y'all.
Like.
So that was the energy of thatshoot, right, and I was so happy
(28:53):
because I had never styled acover before.
And then everybody has yourreaction when I tell them like,
they're like, wait, you did that.
Eric Johnson was a photographer.
It was just amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
That's amazing, that's that's special.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
That's special.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
How did it?
How did it, I guess, how did it, how did it feel, I guess, to
become the editor-in-chief ofthis massive cultural magazine,
and how did your life change?
Of course, I'm sure you mademore money and stuff like that,
but how did your life?
Change, being at that highlevel.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
So, real quick, after I became style editor, I became
fashion director.
So the fashion director you getto go to Europe, to the shows.
All this stuff is all long,complicated.
I won't go into the details,but you're sitting front row at
the shows in Europe.
You've got cars and drivers,you're flying business class.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
So all of that really changed.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
That was my come up right the first time I got to go
to Milan for the fashion showsas fashion director, quincy came
with us.
So, again, right place, righttime, because Quincy's with us.
I'm sitting having lunch withTom Ford and Quincy, I'm at the
Missoni's house for dinner inLake Cuomo, I'm sitting with
(30:07):
Donatella Versace and Quincy.
I'm in right.
So I was really knighted in away, and so all of these things
again work for my benefit and myfavor.
That when I so, I was inparachuting a story and I got a
call from danielle smith, whowas the editor-in-chief, who was
(30:29):
one of my mentors, she I wrotethe first mary cover for, um, my
life.
So that's the other thing.
It's like the journalism andthe fashion and the styling all
come together and daniellecalled me and said I quit, um,
and I was like I'm quitting too,I'm tired of this, it's too
many changes.
She's like no, no, no, no, no,no, no, do not quit.
(30:52):
I put your hat in the ring, Imean your name in the hat to
succeed me.
So it was kind of interesting,like because she gave me a heads
up, I had a chance to writeeverything down In my mind.
I always wanted to be an editorof my own magazine.
I think, having worked at allthe different parts of the
(31:15):
magazine, I knew all the thingsand I also was, at this point,
kind of high profile because ofthe fashion part and a lot of
people forgot that I was ajournalist first and so when I
became editor-in-chief, my wholelife changed.
I was a journalist first and sowhen I became editor in chief,
my whole life changed.
Like I had a wardrobe budget Ihad, I was flying everywhere.
Suddenly, I'm invited toeverything, right, I'm going to
(31:37):
every record release, every bigparty, every you know anything
in Miami, la, I'm at the Grammys, it's like all the different
things, and then I'm sittingfront row at all the shows.
So my whole life changed.
It was really it was like theDevil Wears Prada in a way, but
it was also different because itwas hip hop right.
So the ability to go to thehood to hear a new artist and
(32:01):
then be sitting front row at afashion show during fashion week
made it a big difference.
It was hard for my friendsbecause it was just different.
When I would go out, peoplewere pulling on me and wanted me
to listen to stuff and handedme tapes and CDs and wanted to
take pictures.
And my friends were like, yo,this is not fun for us.
And so I had to work with myfriends to be like, okay, y'all,
(32:23):
come to the party with me, I'mgoing to be over here working,
y'all have fun.
We're going to have a signal.
Be like, okay, y'all, come tothe party with me, I'm gonna be
over here working, y'all havefun.
We're gonna have a signal if Ineed y'all to come get me.
But I wanted or I had to stoppeople like yo, these are my
people like you, gotta be cool.
It was.
It was a hard adjustment but itwas also a lot of fun.
It was in the golden era ofhip-hop like it was the best
(32:45):
time to be editor-in-chief ofthat magazine and then to have
access to quincy that way, right.
So now I'm like quincy'scalling me, I'm having meetings
with quincy, I'm like it's.
It was incredible.
It was the biggest love affairof my life was having being the
editor-in-chief of vibe.
And then, on top of it, we wonthe national Magazine Award for
(33:07):
general excellence and beat outthe New Yorker Wire, jane and
Gourmet.
And no black magazine ever hadwon that award.
General excellence, never won.
It Beat out the New Yorker.
Never happened before.
And again, my family, my momand my grandmother I had them
(33:28):
come with me to that award.
I didn't know if I was going towin or not.
Like they don't tell you untilyou're in the room and you know.
Like Susan Taylor was there,gayle King was there, like all
these people you know andthey're like yo, he won.
It's like Vibe won.
(33:53):
And the Beyonce face, like atthe Grammy's, like vibe one, and
the beyonce face, like at thegrammy's, like what right?
Yes, it was definitely thebeyonce face of the gram and so,
yeah, so it was.
I mean it's you know, I'm sograteful for the opportunity but
also to be able to lift upblack people, black music
culture, black style, black joy,in a way that we had never seen
before.
It was amazing.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
That's incredible.
Wow, I always wanted to ask youthat how does it feel to be at
that rare air?
It's got to just be for lack ofa better term just a mindfuck,
Just to be all these peoplecoming at you and people calling
you.
This must be a lot to process.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
It was a lot to process.
The biggest thing is that Ididn't really have a lot of role
models who had beeneditor-in-chiefs of magazines
that could tell me A lot of it.
It was run and gun.
It's like you're dealing withall these power broker music
label heads because at that timeit was really, really bad and
(34:53):
then you're also dealing with,like these fashion houses.
You're dealing with heads offilm companies and tv divisions
and a lot of advertising stuff,and then you have to keep it
real too, right like, right Like.
You can't get too flomp, flompflomp because the streets ain't
going like that, and so it was alot of pressure.
(35:16):
It was a lot of pressure, butit was.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
It was fun.
It's funny because I meantalking about it.
It's kind of like also remindsme a bit of Mahogany, because
she went to paris and and justgot italy, or she just kind of
got caught up in that world andyou said, unlike you, she didn't
.
Then she had to go back home tochicago and be regular.
(35:39):
You know, it was kind of justright.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's amazing but I think the
difference is you had to stayreal, you had to stay home in it
because of hip hop Like hip hopis not going to let you get too
, dom Perignon because it's likeyou know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
So then you're going to become the editor-in-chief
correct me if I'm wrong of GiantMagazine.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
So, yeah, so I left.
I went to work with Mark Echofor like a year, worked on his
cut and sew, did marketing andall that, okay.
Then I went to Giant Magazine,yeah.
And then I went to Essence.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Okay, so I want to get to the Essence part, but
there's a question I do want toask.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess I'm trying to.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
I don't want to be a dickhead, because I know you've
talked about this a lot.
How were you able to deal withthe homophobia in hip-hop during
that era?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Let's definitely not skip over that.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
I didn't want to skip I got it on my list.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I was like I got to talk to him about this Okay.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
So this was the other part.
So I'm openly gay, so that'sthe thing.
So, but becoming editor inchief, like that was.
When I'm processing, like I'mlike yo is people, are people
going to come after me becauseof that, like, is it going to be
cool?
So it was this weird thing oflike and I just recently started
talking about this I was alwaysafraid that somebody was going
(37:08):
to hurt me, that somebody wasgoing to attack.
I was always like looking overmy shoulder because I didn't
know right.
The other part was it was areally great opportunity for me
as an openly Black gay man, toeducate the community.
So there were moments where I'dbe in the studio with artists
(37:29):
and they would play the musicand it would be like these crazy
lyrics that were homophobic andmisogynistic and stuff like
that.
And I was sitting there and I'mlike yeah, nah, that's not okay
.
Y'all it's not okay.
And I will say this to thecredit of some of the A&Rs, some
of the label heads, some of theartists listening and having
(37:50):
that conversation with mechanged culture, right, and it
wasn't always easy Break thatdown, break that down, break
that down.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
I would change culture.
I want to hear that.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Well, because, first of all, there's a whole bunch of
black gay men in the musicindustry and women Right gay men
in the music industry and womenRight, and so and I knew they
were that was also in the wholeDL.
Who's the gay rapper, wendyWilliams, all that stuff was
going on.
And so that witch hunt made iteven more crazy.
And for me to be sitting in theseat of power and to be the
(38:25):
person deciding who's on thecover, who's in the pages of the
magazine blah blah, it changedthe power dynamic Right on the
cover, who's in the pages of themagazine blah blah, it changed
the power dynamic right.
And so when I heard peoplerhyming about beating up
faggots' asses andda-da-da-da-da and all this
stuff, or killing women andcrazy stuff, and then to say,
y'all, let's have a conversationaround this.
Let me tell you why this isfucked up, right.
Let me tell you why we're notgoing to kill each other as
(38:45):
Black people.
And some people were having it,some people weren't.
There were fights on setsometimes and disagreements
about people thought I wastrying to make them look gay,
and that I think a lot of thearticles that we did about DL
culture, about HIV and AIDS,about aggressive lesbian culture
(39:07):
, trans artists, all that stuff.
This was way back then, right.
So this is all the stuff now.
That's like normal.
We talk about all this stuffnow.
We identify people by theirpronouns, we're fighting for our
trans sisters, but this isstuff that I was doing in the
90s, right, yeah, 30 years ago,right.
(39:27):
So I think that's how it helpedshift and change culture.
Because, you know, billy Portertells a story now of when he
was in Next and was scared to dothe shoot with Vibe because he
thought it was going to behomophobic.
And then when I show up at theset, he's like exhales and then
(39:48):
thought he was going to do allthe most.
I was like, brother, trust me,you're going to look fly.
And so that stuff meanssomething.
Kevin Avianz, right, featuredon Renaissance.
All this and that was in vibebecause of me, right.
And so that's what I mean.
It's like I was.
I'm grateful that I had theforesight to push for all of
that stuff early so that we thenhave language that we can
(40:12):
understand diversity, equity,inclusion within the Black
community and all ourintersections.
Speaker 1 (40:18):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I don't know if fortune is the
right term, but like coming up.
I grew up in this big, bigapartment building 12 floors, 12
apartments per floor, and itwas you know, plus the block.
So there were, you know, gaykids around, I think, the woman
who should take care of me atthe school, one of her sons.
(40:38):
So I never tripped, I never.
I never tripped Right.
But I know that I'm an anomaly,right, you know hip hop, I'm
not an anomaly.
So I was going to ask you howyou dealt with that, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Yeah, and there were people that really had my back
and really covered me, Right.
And I will say, and two peopleI will call out specifically,
Kevin Lyles would meet with meat least once a month to make
sure I was good mentally,emotionally, psychologically.
He was like I just, and it wasno real agenda.
(41:14):
He's like I can push my artists, but you got music editors and
I'm going to send you the stuff.
Julie will send you the stuff,all the things, but are you good
, Right?
And the other part, Sylvia Rohn, would do that too, Right.
And the other part, Sylvia Rohn, would do that too and that.
So, between those two and Quincy, you know people have my back
and I think they knew it wasn'teasy.
(41:35):
You know it wasn't.
I remember, you know, having afight argument on the phone with
Chris Lighty, because he said Iwas trying to out Q-tip one
time and I was like what are youtalking about?
And he's like no, but you puthim on the cover in this article
.
I said, but Chris, did you readthe article?
And he said I hadn't read thearticle.
I said, bruh, get off my phone,read the article, call me back.
(41:59):
But those are the things that Iwas dealing with on top of
everything else.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yeah, wow, well, everything else, yeah, wow, wow,
I'm glad.
I'm glad there was a supportsystem there for you, though,
you know.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Yeah, no.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
I'm grateful, tell me about Essence.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
All right.
So you know, I've been workingon my own.
I've been working at thesesmaller magazines and
publications, and Angela ByrneMurray was the editor-in-chief
of Essence when I went there.
She went to Hampton so we wouldbe judging at the National
Magazine Awards and then wewould just be talking about like
(42:36):
Chris Brown and Rihanna andjust different things, and like
I have my ear to the ground andshe's, you know, she's like
black, middle-class womanworking at Essence and living in
New Jersey with her husband andtwo kids.
So I'm like here's what's goingon on the streets.
So she was like, would youconsider coming to Essence?
And I was like, hmm, let methink about that.
I was like, so what's the deal?
(42:57):
And she's like, well, you wouldcome and oversee the website
because we need somebody thatunderstands younger culture,
younger women, what they're into, music, all the things.
And you have the pedigree andthe knowledge and I thought
about it and I thought you knowwhat it's a legacy brand?
(43:17):
It's a brand obviously I grewup with.
One of my first writing pieceswas in Ebony.
It was, in essence, underHarriet Cole.
Okay, gordon Chambers was theirkind of new talent editor, so
he would write for me, I wouldwrite for him.
But I just had so much respectfor Susan Taylor and what she
(43:38):
and the owners had created right, what these Black men and this
Black woman created and Ithought you know what?
Let me do it, I'm going to gothere, let me learn.
And I thought you know what?
Let me do it, I'm going to gothere, let me learn.
And it was great.
It was great being there Againanother golden era of the
Essence Festival.
So I started working on thewebsite.
We did three makeovers of thewebsite, redesigns.
(44:01):
I'm the one that launched theirTwitter account and their
Instagram account, because thatwas happening at that time and
they weren't on.
Let's go, black women are overindexing on Twitter.
Let's get it.
Yeah, all of that Exactly.
And so I did that stuff.
(44:22):
And then they realized I didn'thave all the talent connections.
So they were like would youconsider moving to the magazine?
And I was like what's the role?
So Mickey Taylor had just leftand they needed someone to book
the covers and oversee all thecovers, but also to manage
celebrity relationships acrossthe brand.
So that included the magazine,the covers, exclusives for the
(44:47):
website, work on the festival,work on Black women in music and
Black women in Hollywood.
So I was like let's go, it waswonderful, right, let's go, it
was wonderful, right.
And I Michelle Ebanks wasreally my mentor there and
really took me under her wingand taught me so much about
business which then enabled meto, once I left Essence, to
(45:09):
build my own business and my ownbrand.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Wow, Wow, Okay.
And I saw you went to India,did a little little.
You pray love in India.
How long?
Speaker 2 (45:18):
were you in India?
Speaker 1 (45:20):
He prayed love in India.
How long?
How long were you in India?
I was there for six weeks.
That's a nice run.
Speaker 2 (45:28):
That's a nice run.
My Indian friends are like wecan't believe you stayed there
that long.
But it was transformative andit was a moment that I needed to
reach.
I needed to just a readjustmentin my life and I got it there
and I came back and was a newperson.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
Well, just give me a little bit like this what was it
like in India?
Like I've never been, like howwas it?
It's so.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
India is very my Indian friends say this, so no
one will attack me they say it'svery confronting the culture
and the environment there.
So it is very, very rich andit's very, very poor and the
poverty is abject poverty, Likeit's nothing you've ever even
can imagine in New York right,or in the US.
(46:13):
And so it's walking betweenthose worlds, but it's also
deeply spiritual, so it's Idon't know, but it's also deeply
spiritual, so it's I don't know.
It's almost like being in amovie, bro.
It's like it's so beautiful.
The people, the culture is soold, the history is so old, they
know who they are and it was.
It's very family oriented, butthen it's the music, the culture
(46:35):
, the colors, the fashion.
People are like doing bigtechnology, like all this stuff
is really happening there.
So it was just really for me itwas like seeing the world
through a different lens andreminding myself that I could do
whatever I wanted to do.
Right, I just had to likereally dream.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Yeah, yeah, and when you get back from India again.
Correct me if I got thetimeline wrong.
You work at Afropunk.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
So I started Native Son and then I go work at
Afropunk and so that was atAfropunk from 2018 to 2020.
And then COVID hit, and thenthat was the end of Afropunk.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
Afropunk was great.
It was great, great.
I went in 2018.
It was brooklyn.
It was crazy.
I was like this is crazy, thisis amazing.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah and it's just to organize a community who
loved punk music, who lovedrock and roll, who loved black
music and black culture and werefreedom fighters, right, and
about equity and inclusion anddiversity before all.
(47:45):
That was the thing around theglobe, right?
So we were brooklyn, london,paris, atlanta, johannesburg,
and I would get to go to allthose spaces.
So then, to be with blackpeople in all those spaces in
one year, it was amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
It was incredible.
That's yeah, yeah, that's crazy.
Tell me about native son.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
So, native son, I'm in India, I'm trying to figure
out what I'm going to do and Ithought about all the black, gay
and now you say queer men whocame before me that didn't have
the privilege to live out and bewho they authentically were, a
lot of them who died during theAIDS crisis.
And then I could be like Edwin,chief of Vibe, right as a black
(48:33):
gay man.
And so I thought what I learnedat Essence was seeing Black
women support other Black women.
I wanted something like thatfor my community and that didn't
exist.
So I kind of took like what Ilearned at Essence, what I
learned at Vibe, what I learnedat Afropunk, and use all of that
(48:54):
the marketing, the organizing,the principles, the mission of
it.
Who just won the Tony and theOscar for Wicked?
(49:23):
Derek Adams, dr David Johns,phil Wilson, all these men right
, and we had Duran Bernardperform and it was amazing and
it went to our surprise, colemanDomingo with his award, but we
had 3.6 billion mediaimpressions, damn.
So it's a thing.
It's a thing thing and it'sabout to be a real thing.
(49:45):
I'm about to say I know you'reabout to ratchet it up even
further Yesterday's price ain'ttoday's price To think that
there's a community out therethat didn't feel seen, that
didn't know kind of who they areand had to hide in the closet
(50:08):
for safety and for their lives,that now they don't have to do
that and that it could be thisbig it's a blessing, man.
Speaker 1 (50:16):
It's a blessing.
That's great.
That's great.
Now, did you do something withthe Met Gala this year?
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Were you involved with the?
We did.
We did like a brunch the daybefore where we invited all
these Black queer influencersand stylists and stuff like that
.
And then I still write too.
Like I still write fordifferent magazines and stuff
like that.
You know, I'm just I'm reallyfocused on telling amazing Black
stories for different magazinesand stuff like that.
You know, I'm just I'm reallyfocused on telling amazing Black
stories and amplifying them andsupporting and uplifting Black
(50:46):
creativity and culture and ourhistory.
Speaker 1 (50:49):
And now you're coming full circle.
You're a professor at FIT, I'ma professor at FIT.
Speaker 2 (50:54):
That's crazy.
Listen, I'm West Indian Tenjobs, but I teach journalism.
I teach journalism, I teachmagazine feature writing, public
relations work.
I'm full-time faculty.
I have four classes.
I have like 80 students.
I'm there three days a week andI love it.
(51:14):
I love being around youngpeople and I learn stuff from
them.
They learn stuff from me.
There's not a lot of Blackprofessors there and in academia
across the industry, I thinkless than 3%.
So what's happening, which iskind of cool, is most of my
students are POC or LGBTQ andthey feel safe with me.
(51:38):
I bring in other Black andpeople of color professionals
and media to talk to them andthey feel safe with me.
I bring in other Black andpeople of color professionals
and media to talk to them andthey love it.
That's dope man.
So tell me what's next?
I'm in Mexico City writing abook and that's the next big
thing is, you know, I've neverwritten my own book.
I've done four words for peopleand other things, so I'm doing
that.
It's hard because it's a lot ofstories that people don't know
(52:02):
about my journey, about my life.
So I'm going to bare my souland I think it's important
because, again, I just want tokeep inspiring the next
generations.
Speaker 1 (52:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yo, I really appreciate it.
This was good.
This was good.
I learned a lot.
Even my research.
I still kept learning shit.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
You had good research , though.
You had good research, yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
I always like to research.
I don't like to.
I notice a lot of podcasts.
People just kind of talk andI'm like I want to have a focus,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
And I don't want people to be like damn, you
didn't know that it was kind ofmore basic stuff.
Like you being from Cincinnati,how do you not know that you
went to Hampton, we went toblack schools.
We know that type of shit.
Got two things Give me one morespicy story and then I got two
or three quick shot questions.
(52:55):
Again, don't incriminate nobody, don't hurt nobody like that.
It could be anything you know.
Again, don't incriminate,nobody, don't hurt.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
You don't know that.
You know it could be anything.
I'll say, when I was in Milanwith Quincy, one of the best
moments was we were at theMasoni's house for dinner and
Naomi and I are running aroundhanging out and then she's like
come into the bathroom with meand I was like okay, girl, like
(53:22):
what's happening?
And then she sits down to usethe bathroom and is just
straight talking to me like I'mher girlfriend.
And I was like yeah, and I waslike this is crazy and will
definitely be in the book.
I mean it's silly, but it's alittle spicy.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
Yeah, yeah, okay, that's cool.
Okay, these are the three quickburns, and then we're done.
Give me one or two of yourfavorite artists of all time.
Ooh, okay.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
I'm going to say Mary J Blige.
Okay, like my life, to me isundisputable, right Cover to
cover undisputable.
So I'm going to hands down tentoes down.
Mary J Blige is one.
Wow, can we say Quincy's anartist.
Speaker 1 (54:11):
Say anything, it's your call, your list.
Speaker 2 (54:22):
I'm going to say Quincy, because what I think is
amazing about Quincy is his earright To think about, you know,
soundtracks from movies to thinkabout.
We Are the World to think aboutMichael Jackson, to think about
his own accused juke joint, allRight, and the fact that he
(54:46):
also was humanitarian was aboutcommunity and culture and
lifting other people up.
Even so, he died, was stilldiscovering new talent.
I have to give it up to Quincynew talent.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
Um, I have to give it up to quincy, okay, okay and
and I agree with you, 100, I'dsay 10 tones down.
My life is the best producedalbum puffing them ever did.
Period.
Top to bottom.
Top to bottom, you know, andthat's great they done.
They did a lot of great albums.
Yeah, top to bottom.
That is that's my pinnacle.
Like this is the best thingthey've ever put together.
(55:23):
Yeah, give me one or two ofyour favorite authors, oh well.
Speaker 2 (55:29):
James Baldwin.
So native son is named afterJames Baldwin's notes of a
native son.
So that was his firstcollection of essays.
That's the type of book I'mworking on is a collection of
essays so kind of inspired JamesBond went to me for sure, and
then I'm going to say MayaAngelou.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Okay, okay.
Yeah, he probably lived inHarlem and a lot of people
didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
I know which is crazy , that people didn't know that.
People did not know that.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
I found out I was on a video set I can't remember who
it was, but it doesn't matterand I was talking to one of the
guys in the production, whiteCat actually, and he lived in
Harlem.
He lived on that block on 120th, and he said that when he went
to look at the apartment, therealtor told him okay, you know,
they made it, he made off withit, they accepted and he said
(56:22):
okay, listen, you have to becool and quiet because my angel
lives on this block, so youcould literally walk out your
door and see Oprah coming up ina car and all those kind of
luminaries coming up in a car,but you can't trip out.
You got to be cool.
And that's what I found outthat she lived on that block.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
Amazing yeah.
Speaker 1 (56:43):
Last question Give me one or two of your favorite
designers.
Speaker 2 (56:48):
So you know, I listen to your podcast, so I'm trying
not to relish.
I'm not going to try to relish,it's good.
So I'm going to steal one ofhis, which was Tom Ford.
I think tom ford, you know justthe pinnacle of luxury
understands the assignment,understands how to create
(57:09):
something and make it go viral.
Basically, um, I would say cocochanel, because to create
something that was reallycreated for women, by women,
like by a woman for women, butto grow it out of that era like
(57:30):
post um, nazi Germany and allthis and that, and really grow
her own brand as a woman and theway that it stands up now I
would say her.
And then, third, trying to thinkof who I want to crown for the
last, okay, I'm going to sayVirgil Abloh.
(57:51):
And I'm going to say VirgilAbloh because, just, I mean the
fact that he could take fashionand culture and art and commerce
and put it all together, andthe fact that it took them so
long to even get to Pharrell toreplace, because they were like,
who do we get that?
(58:11):
Can understand this assignment?
You got to give it up forVirgil Abel.
And to be the first blackdesigner, the head of creative
director of a European fashionbrand like that.
That was cool, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (58:25):
I still marvel at how he did so much in such a short
period of time Incredible,really incredible.
He was doing OV, he was doingthe Nike stuff, he did all the
white, he was DJing.
It was like how did you do thisstuff, bro, here?
Thank you, thank you, man.
Speaker 2 (58:40):
I appreciate that.
Thank you, brother.
Speaker 1 (58:41):
Yes, I really enjoyed that.
I really enjoyed that Good,good.
Thank you, jeff, for having me.
This is good Thank you man.
Have fun in Mexico City.
Good luck with the book.
I can't wait to read it.
Yes, it's going to be.
You can catch Mixed andMastered on Apple Podcasts,
spotify, iheart or wherever youget your podcasts.
Hit that follow button, leave areview and tell a friend I'm
(59:05):
your host, jeffrey Sledge.
Mixed and Mastered is producedand distributed by Merrick
Studios.
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