Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on Mixed
and Mastered, I'm talking with
Grace Harry, former MCA Records,jive Records and Def Jam
Records.
Executive owner of Box FreshProductions, artist manager and
joy strategist.
She's worked with Tribe CalledQuest, usher, jay-z, kanye West
and Questlove, guiding theircareers and reshaping modern
(00:22):
music.
Now Grace helps creatorsreconnect with purpose and
protect their joy.
Grace is all about the work andthe energy behind the artist.
This is Mixed and Mastered withGrace Harry.
Welcome to Mixed and Mastered,a podcast where the stories of
the music industry come to life.
I'm Jeffrey Sledge, bringingyou real conversations with the
(00:46):
people who have shaped the soundof music.
We're pulling back the curtainon what it takes to make it in
the music business.
These are the stories you won'thear anywhere else, told by the
people who live them.
This is Mixed and MasteredHello, mixed and Mastered with a
(01:09):
longtime friend I haven't seenin a long time.
I'm very happy to see her today.
Grace Harry, how are you, grace?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I am so good and I'm
so happy to be here.
Thank you, you look great.
You look great, you lookamazing.
Thank you.
Thank you, you have a glowabout you.
You always did, but you do evenmore now.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Thank you, you look
great.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
You look great, you
look amazing.
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
You have a glow about
you.
You always did, but you do evenmore now.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
This is so fun
because it's so rare to be on
someone you know.
We've been in a business whereyou know people for a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
So I've been on so
much podcasts with Toray and
Angie and different people.
Not Angie Angie's podcast, butshe was on mine, which is
exciting.
But this is a whole other thing, because I can honestly say I
have been in the music industryfrom the beginning, alongside
you.
That's a whole differentconversation.
It's a whole different energy.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
What I was noticing
is, when I was researching for
the show, I kept finding stufffrom a certain point in your
career, moving forward, like youknow, with the book and and
then and I was like, no, I wantto talk about the stuff way
before.
So we're going to do that today.
We're going to do that today,so let's start at the beginning.
(02:17):
Where were you born?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I was born in Staten
Island by accident.
My mother was a teenager andshe was I always the story
somehow.
I get it wrong every timeaccording to my mother, but
somehow she was visiting anotherpregnant person and got
pregnant, got, went into laborthere.
So I was born in Staten IslandHospital and then raised in
Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
You're raised in
Brooklyn.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Have to quickly go to
raise in Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Very important,
exactly, exactly.
You know, I will say thisbefore we move forward.
I will always like I see youare very brooklyn to me and I
don't know if anybody sees thatI'm like, let's see brooklyn
girl, but I think people have astereotype of what they think a
brooklyn girl is, whereas it'sobviously very variations of a
(03:02):
brooklyn girl.
To me you are very Brooklyn andI think sometimes people kind
of get confused.
I'm like, if you know Brooklyngirls, then you just that's what
they are.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
I also think that
Brooklyn has, you know, if now
that we're at the senior age,right, and we're the elders.
I can see very much talking todifferent people from different
cultures about what a Brooklyngirl is Like.
I have some friends who haveRussian Polish immigrant
grandparents and that's a veryat that time.
You know what I mean.
(03:33):
Or people who are from Brooklyn, people who moved to Brooklyn,
people who've gentrifiedBrooklyn.
So I think it's a confusion,with each generation, of what is
the heart and soul of the placethat makes you who you are yeah
, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
So tell me your first
um what got you into music yes,
I mean just as a kid, like whatyou're listening to it and what
you know was your mom playingrecords at house.
Or like what was it that gotyou?
You know?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
so my parents were
teenagers so there were always
teenagers around.
So I don't remember a housewithout music.
It just never was a thing.
And even to this day Iliterally make playlists for the
shower and playlists forsleeping and playlists for when
people are over and playlistsfor when I'm cooking.
So I always remember music.
But some of the early momentsthat really excited me about
embodying music, living in music, making a career out of music
(04:23):
which I had no idea what thateven was a thing.
But I remember my mother cominghome with a Spinner's album and
it was a double album and theywere in perforation and you had
to pierce them and make like amobile and it blew my mind.
Or the Grease album that was adouble and it was.
You know those things.
Or early movies my mother weused to go to Brooklyn Law
(04:45):
School had free movie nights sowe could afford that.
So we would go and see whateverwas playing there and I
remember seeing movies likeQuadrophenia or Pink Floyd, the
Wall, or movies that were thewhiz, movies that were so
embedded in the music was themovie.
And those things just blew mymind, and so I've always loved
that connection to there'ssomething that you hear but
(05:09):
there's an experience aroundhearing, and so that's where it
got me.
And then, years later, workingas a chef, I was hanging out a
lot in the music.
In like that time, the musicindustry wasn't a music industry
.
If you were into music or artsof any kind, there was a place
you hung out, so you would, asyou know, you go to a Danceteria
(05:30):
or a Mars or a Reggae Lounge ora Payday or you know these
clubs.
It was a range of people allwho were into this concept.
So I remember there was thisguy named Dante Ross Not was.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
He's still a guy Good
guy.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
A good friend, A good
friend of all of ours.
He was a waiter at thisrestaurant called Tortilla Flats
and it was on Washington.
You remember this.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
Yeah, I didn't
remember he was the waiter there
, but I remember the picture ofTortilla Flats Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
And for some reason
he still dated all my friends.
My friend Jenna Hoffman wasdating him for a moment.
My friend Erica Kennedy was no,yeah, it was like he went
through a million of my friends.
And when he was dating Erica wewent out one night, took a
picture of the three of us me,erica and Leslie and he had it
on his wall.
And this group that he newlysigned, de La Soul, was in there
(06:16):
with a friend of theirs whowasn't signed yet, named Q-Tip.
And then I went out to a partylike a couple of days later and
met Riddler and Russell withDante and then met Paz and Q-Tip
and Africa all together at onceand we just became instant
friends.
And I used to date this guynamed Eves, who's good friends
with Dante, and so Dante toldTip oh no, she's not available.
(06:38):
We had been broken up forever,but he was very like you know.
So we were all hanging out andI just started spending a lot
more time.
You know, being a chef, myhours are a little different, so
I could go out at night and notbe up early.
I think I was 17 at the time andI just started spending a lot
of time with all of these people.
I met Andre Harrell and allthese different people and I
(07:00):
learned that this collectivethat was forming the Native
Tongues.
They were different becausethey were taking from a
background that was moresuburban but they also were
taking from a background thatwas closer to my actual
background.
And being a mixed person in the70s was hard because everybody
wanted you to decide.
I remember it was like a bigthing when you meet people, do
you like rock or disco?
And you had to chooseno-transcript.
(07:50):
I mean, I had no idea.
And then doing the cover andand hanging out and being a part
of all that in the first videoand and then kind of, if you
look at all those albums, theyall ambiguously say thank you,
grace gracie henry not because Idid anything official, but
because I was so a part of, likewidening this musical
opportunity for our voice andwe're gonna go back okay go back
(08:15):
a little bit so we're gonna.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Well, first of all,
you bring up dante.
He's on my list of people toget on this show.
Um, he's a really good friendof mine.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
I'd be loving some
Dante.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
He's funny because you knowlike this era you're talking
about.
He always says I was a reallygood-looking kid.
I was a really good-looking kid.
I was dating all the models.
I was a really good-looking kid.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
He was.
He was a really good-lookingkid.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
He was, yeah, but he
was like this downtown New York.
It's interesting.
Timothee Chalamet, who'sobviously having a moment, I'm
like that's Dante, that's Albie,that's a New York kid.
But if you don't know New Yorkkids, you won't understand that.
He's not new, that's right,he's not new, and I don't say
that to disrespect him becausehe's dope new, that's right,
he's not new and I don't I don'tsay that as disrespect him
(09:06):
Cause he's dope.
I'm a fan of his work.
I'm like that kid's been aroundsince the sixties.
You guys just didn't know, youknow.
But anyway, let's talk aboutthe chef thing.
I want to talk about that CauseI think that's very interesting
.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
The last season.
Yeah, I was 19.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
So tell me about how
that happened.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
So my mother moved to
Haiti when I was 17.
Okay, and I freaked out and Iwas dating this kid.
It's actually funny.
I'm in the home right now of mygood friend that I met in high
school, when I was cuttingschool, to visit my boyfriend.
She went to Stuyvesant, like hedid, and his mother, sophia,
was instrumental in my life.
(09:45):
I was a skinhead.
I was hanging out at CBGBs.
I was just a mess.
I was coming from Brooklyn toManhattan by going into the
subway vent and, like findingthe path, I figured out which
one they could open up.
Right near CBGBs Cuckoo kit,jumping turnstiles, hanging out
with a graffiti artist and trainyards, like doing whatever you
know yeah, and um, so I was.
(10:08):
My mother was newly moved.
Oh no, I don't think she movedyet.
I think she hadn't moved yet,unless he be jeebies.
I go and I meet alex and heseemed fine and then I went to
his house.
He lived on top of the quadtheater on 13th street and I was
obsessed with her his motherlike I'd never met a woman like
that.
She was creative andinteresting and she was a chef.
So I started working with herand getting work all over the
(10:28):
place.
So it really came.
You know, I knew how to cookfrom being a young person.
Me and my mother were both justyoung people together and then
I realized I could do that andmy mother moved to Haiti.
Finally, I dropped out of 10thgrade because now I had to work
and I had to pay bills.
So I got an apartment onThompson Street, between Spring
(10:49):
and Prince.
It was $210 a month.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
My grandmother had
you got an apartment worth now,
you bet.
You wonder, oh my.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
God beyond.
It was a mess.
I had like a crack through thething.
Almost all the native tonguesat one point have stayed there
because I was between all therecording studios.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yeah, you're right,
there there were readers, or?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
yeah, daylar,
everyone, moni stayed there for
months.
Everybody would come and staythere, wow.
So when my mother moved andAlex and I broke up and I had to
kind of figure things out, allI had really in my repertoire
was cooking.
So I started to give myself toevery single catering company
because I could work all thetime and I started ghost chefing
(11:30):
like some fancy person on theupper east side was going to do
thanksgiving but wasn't going toreally cook it.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
That became my thing,
and then I met this woman.
That was a thing.
Oh yeah, people do.
I didn't know that so muchanymore.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
We're a little more
honest about we.
It's kind of cool to not knowhow to do shit, but in those
days you like failed as a wifeor as a like a society woman or
whatever the hell was.
So I'd often was hired to comein stealth life with like one
assistant to prep and make ameal and then go out the back,
go out the servants quarters andlike let them do their thing,
so when the I found a, so myname norma darden, who's a black
(11:59):
woman, amazing, who started acatering company called spoon
bread and and I started workingwith her a lot.
So the Cosby show came to herand she was like I don't know, I
can't do that.
And so she insisted I go forthe interview.
And I just was like there's noway I'm going to get that job.
There's no way.
So I had to do a series ofinterviews and then I had to
cook for the cast and the teamand I got the job.
(12:21):
It was amazing.
It changed my life and stillhave great friends in my life
Malcolm, jamal Warner's one, andjust amazing opportunity.
You were a kid, I was a kid butit was great because I knew I
didn't want to cook anymoreafter that.
It was very intense and so Iwalked around the set to figure
out what else I could do with noeducation.
(12:42):
And that got me to.
I mean, I won't say it soundsrude, but it got me into an
actual, proper job in the musicindustry.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Okay, so what was
your first job in the music
industry?
Speaker 2 (12:52):
So I mean people
would disagree.
Q-tip has a different becausehe has lots of feelings about me
being in the music industry atall.
But I was asked at that time to.
At the time I wanted to figureout how to just get in there and
do some of the creative thingsthat I did, but I didn't know
even what an internship was so Icalled andre harrell and I
asked him if he knew the persondid publicity because, as I
(13:13):
walked around and watchedeveryone's role in the cosby
show, that seemed like somethingmaybe I could do.
And um, he introduced me thiswoman named paula batson who ran
.
You know, they were a JV.
Uptown, records.
So the head of publicity wasPaula Batson, and so my first
official job, even though I feellike I did a lot of stuff with
you all and tried was an internat MCA Records, wow, and Andre
(13:37):
thought I was crazy.
He's like you're going to giveup.
And I had my own cateringcompany at the same time.
Remember Caramu Catering?
Yeah, I remember company at thesame time.
Remember caramu catering?
Yeah, I remember.
Yeah, yeah, so I gave up allthat.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
He was like you're
crazy to do that.
Yeah, because you know andrewas on that fly shit.
He's like, yeah, you wouldcause me, so like you, you fly.
Yeah I could see him yeah, I, Iknow that's what he.
That's how he talked.
I could see him saying that,like what did you talk about
this?
He was disgusted.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
He was literally
disgusted.
Best decision I made one of thebest decisions so you were
interns in publicity at mca.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Who and who did you
uh?
Who did you oversee at thatpoint?
Well, work with at that pointwho was my boss?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
no, you're an artist
with artists yeah, so you know,
mca at the time is massive.
So I worked with everyone fromEric B and Rakim to Guy, to
Bobby Brown, to Elton John,jodeci, mary J Blige Wow,
because all of them used thepublicity department.
They didn't have a publicitydepartment.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Yeah, it was like a
central thing.
For the people who arelistening that don't know.
Mca eventually turned intoUniversal Music Group over the
years.
Eventually turned intoUniversal Music Group over the
years.
So understand that.
That's the company that we'retalking about and the size of
the company that we're talkingabout.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, and it was
interesting because you know
this boggles my mind.
But nobody got a distributioncompany.
I talked about this many times,but so all of them at one point
.
So Uni Distribution wasdistributed all of the MCA,
uptown, everything.
I remember a funny story oncewe had a little sexual issue in
the office and we had to do aworkshop and my particular
(15:12):
workshop, Puffy and Heavy, werein the workshop because now
Shelby Mead left, she went toElectra, so the shell became
coordinator and I became anofficial assistant.
So anyway, I moved all over fromchef, but yeah, so I became a
chef of the Cosby show.
From that experience workingwith Norman Jean Darden at
Spoonbread and learning how tocook through Sophia.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Wow, wow.
So you became an assistant.
So that was your first likekind of official on the books
job at music.
What did you?
What did you think about itbeing this?
You know, this new thing?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Well, because I was I
.
I was this grace who justwanted to be wanted by anyone.
I just would go above andbeyond.
So you know my cateringbackground.
All of a sudden, before I knowit, I'm manning the, their first
grammy party they're doing atthe door and I started doing so
many more things.
I started doing, actually, theystarted sending me out to do
press days for up-and uptownartists like Mary and Jodeci and
(16:06):
Shy.
It was on MCA.
And I learned so much that whenBarry called me and was, like
what are you doing?
Like wait, you're MC.
Like what are you doing there?
Why don't you come to publicityhere?
Like I don't, we have my God.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
I'm blanking Leslie
Leslie.
God bless her.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
So have my god, I'm
blanking leslie, a lovely girl,
just come, just so.
I was like fine, and thenmiguel tried to offer me a job
at columbia at the same time andbarry was not having it, and so
he was like, made up some tourmanager position and the fucking
first story puts me on thistribe and and souls of mission,
that's all yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, I'm still in touch.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Well, obviously I
still.
I'm still talking to Alisometimes and I'm still in touch
with a couple of Souls guys too.
I love that.
Jay and Domino.
Yeah, you know, just say what'sup, kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I love that I talked
to Tip last a week ago.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
You haven't talked to
him in a minute.
I need to reach out.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
He's in a really good
place.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Good, good him some
stuff, so I need to reach out to
him.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
um, I miss that dude
wait, so okay, so you come to
jive and you're working withleslie uh doing publicity, and
how do you like it?
I?
Speaker 1 (17:12):
fucking hated it.
You took the.
I said how do you like it?
Oh my god love her.
She's a genius yes, she passedaway.
She's a great person butcomplicated so then he puts me
with.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
He puts me a dual
role with larry khan and that
guy who ran verity a jazzyjordan?
Speaker 1 (17:30):
no, was it jazzy?
Yes.
Who passed away recently too?
I did not know that.
Yeah, he passed away.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
He passed away like
last year, last year, oh, I'm so
sorry so I, being spoiled, brata jive because, barry, just I
could do no wrong.
And remember, I came in with, Icame with an artist like kind
of.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I didn't know any of
that then.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
So I was such a brat
that I then they he said, okay,
two shorts coming out, and Iwent and did a whole bunch of
research and I was like, uh,this is going to be hard, but I
was so about it and also loved,I love him you know how much I
love him, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
So I was like I'm going tofigure this out and I went and I
went on the weekend and wedidn't have internet, so I just
(18:10):
did all this research and wentto the library and looked at old
records and I found a heavymetal magazine and then I found
like all these old black lightimages of like women as
astrology but like all busty andstuff, and I realized I
couldn't put him with live womento start because he doesn't
interact, really todd with themnot that he doesn't like.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
In a weird way it's
interesting because too short is
.
Has this, you know, pimpish,this pimp persona, and I'm not
saying he doesn't, you know,like women and gay women,
because he does, but it's notwhat you think.
Like you said, it's not.
It's not what you think heain't like come here.
It's not that at all.
He's very respectful.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
It was confusing to
me at first.
I was like and then I went tovisit him in the house, anyway.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
So I decided I did my
own thing and found an artist
that I eventually brought to theart department to draw me too
short and all these women as theastrology signs and make a
special green vinyl, do thosethings.
So I bring it to my two bossesand they were like this is
terrible.
I lost my shit.
By the way, larry is love he's,you know julia is still my dear
friend.
He's in my life.
It was amazing, but I was beinga brat.
Of course I go right to barry,and then barry loved it.
(19:20):
So he was like who do you wantto work for?
And I was like janet kleinbaumin my mind.
I was like she, so spoiled inthere.
But it was great because what Iended up doing was realizing
that the hip hop world was beingsquished again.
Because it's a conversation,right, it was born to be a
revolutionary conversation inour communities with the tools
we had, and now all of a suddenit's rising up to this
(19:42):
incredible space where therecord labels want to bring them
in, but they're trying to applytheir old tools.
So I'm watching them want tomake these videos and it was
looking like hodgepodge becauseit'd be like someone creating a
video and someone doing an albumpackage and someone doing a
single.
And I said to one day.
I said to barry, I was like youknow, if you want to be a
competitive brand, you got to dothe way that the advertising
agencies do it.
Where you create a campaign,everything has to be the tenets
(20:05):
of one campaign becauseotherwise it's confusing to a
consumer If they're not beingfed like who does this the best?
You think of Diana Ross orMadonna?
It's like Rihanna they arecreating.
Or Britney.
When we got to that phase, likethe album cycle, everything
spoke that the font, what theyate, is it a popsicle versus an
ice cream?
Like the details.
(20:26):
We're telling a story.
We're telling a story for youto feel the music.
And he really bought that hook,line and sinker and allowed me
to just come up with what Iwanted and even figure out the
name of it.
And then janet was like it hadto.
I wanted to call it somethingelse, but she wanted to call it
artist marketing.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So I was like great,
so great, so I started doing
this.
Do you remember?
Speaker 2 (20:45):
What did I want to?
I bet Janet does Cause shementioned the last time I talked
to her Okay, I can't remember,but it was something more like
cause.
What it really was was how arewe signing people and having A&R
bring passionate people to usthat they feel are stars, and
then we're not even going totake their lead?
And I'm not saying they knewwhat to do, but they at least
(21:09):
knew what to do to make us feela way to bring them in.
So all I wanted to do was startfrom the beginning.
And if it was a new artist and Idid this throughout my entire
career, all the way, jay-z,mariah, everyone where, when we
had our first meeting, it wasthe first meeting of bringing
you back to the beginning Like,why did you even want to be an
artist?
What did you feel, what itlooked like the first time you
saw yourself on the stage?
What did you wear?
Like, bring me who's yourfavorite artist, who's the first
person who ever made you feellike you could do this?
(21:29):
So I started doing that anddoing that with, and starting
with the A&R people and havingthem bring me in the studio when
ready so that I could come backin the company and say you know
, we, you and I this is kind ofalso what you and I did together
, because you- naturally.
Well, I was speaking to Aaliyah,whatever at the time, and their
vision is this.
So let's come back to them withhow we're going to match that
(21:50):
vision, not like I once saw avideo for this group, aha, and
it was so cool.
So now let's pin it on R Kelly,like that's what was happening.
Yeah, and so that was really.
I hated it.
No-transcript.
(22:30):
Huge boobs and he was like thisvideo is great and I was like
ding, ding, ding, so literallyI'd be in edits for years after
and I'd be, like, put some titsup front so you can just get
that out of the way.
and then and I remember tellingyou that too oh my God.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Oh, my God.
That fucking lyric I always askthis question a little later.
I'm going to ask it again.
But I always ask people likegive me a crazy story.
And I'm going to hedge this onebecause I know you remember we
did a video excuse me, a photoshoot for Too Short.
He had an album called youNasty, you remember this, and
(23:05):
you hired one girl who was anactual porn star and another
girl who wasn't a porn star butwas really pretty and, I guess,
into women, and I didn't tellher boyfriend I don't know if
you remember this and herboyfriend came to the set and
you made them.
You didn't make them, I'm sorry.
Let me change that.
We had them all stripped naked,including Too Short, and that
(23:29):
was the photo on the album cover.
Too Short has no clothes on andwe have a pillow over itself
because you couldn't see it.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I wanted to be sexy
again.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yes, yes, yeah, that
was a crazy photo shoot.
I'll tell you a story of whathappened off camera.
Yeah, that was a wild photo.
I know what happened off camera, oh okay, but I remember the
girl's boyfriend got pissed offand he left.
He was like you better leavenow.
But she was like, no, I want todo this.
And he left.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Yeah, well, what
happened was it was the age of
just backing up to that.
I had just a bad experiencerecently with one of our a-list
artists where all of a suddeneverybody wanted these video
models video vixens, whatever wecalled it at the time and I did
a shoot and I had to negotiateand spend all this money on this
girl and she was so much workand rude, mean and like it was
(24:18):
treacherous, and so that samevideo the artist was upset.
So we had a day one shoot.
The next day I was like, let mego to strip club, Let me just
check it out.
So I went to strip club and Igot bottle service.
I sat in the front and I juststarted talking to a bunch of
girls and I was like they wereso chill and easy and already
naked and not that I neededeveryone to be naked, but I
(24:40):
needed them to be naked, meaningthat they weren't coming in
with their artistic career andtrying to fight and battle with
what the artists want.
They would actually be hiredand do the thing and have a good
attitude.
So I really started to do thatalmost everywhere and even up
until the end with Usher when hedid that song, that Luke song
I'm kidding.
I was important to me thatwe've got actual strippers and
(25:03):
not did some MTV video thingwhere we had some girls dance
but like be in, like give back alittle bit, and so it's always
been my thing.
And that comes with acomplicated price, because often
they're not the most therapizedand they're not in communities
with the most therapized, andwe've had a lot of situations.
Remember Akanele?
(25:23):
Oh, I had a crazy Akanele.
Oh, my god, don't even get mestarted.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I'll let you tell
that story, then we'll move on.
You know he owns King ofDiamonds.
He owns a strip club now calledKing of Diamonds in Vegas.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
It's like a massive
strip club you know, I've been
there and I didn't even knowthat he owns that please do you
talk to him.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
I'm about to talk to,
somebody else talks to.
I forget what someone else whostill talks to them told me and
I was like I can, let he ownsthat you know we have we got
along so well, actuallystrangely remember we just yeah.
Yeah, he was a nut job, but Iliked him nut job.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
I loved him too and
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Speaker 4 (26:33):
And now back to our
show, so wait.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
so you said when did
you go after you left Jive?
Speaker 2 (26:37):
So remember we got a
tip off wink wink not from Barry
that they're about to sell, andbecause Jive was so cheap, I
would go every year and drum upinterest from other people so
that I could have an offer toget a promotion every year.
And so this I got a call fromthis lady.
Fuck, I can't remember her name.
I loved her and I loved workingfor her.
(26:57):
She was a head of marketing.
I can't remember her name.
She left quickly after and thenI'm having like a senior moment
after that.
What's his name?
Anyway, no, she was at MCARecords.
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Okay, okay In LA,
okay Okay.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Now MCA is different,
because now MCA is rolling up
into, because it's universal.
What's his name?
French, who runs all of itKidding.
What's his name?
French, who runs all of itKitting?
It's Nicky Kitting.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Anyway, I'm blanking,
not Bronfman.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
No, french, I also
really like him.
Anyway, he's still the head ofUniversal.
Oh, lucian Grinch.
Thank you, lucian.
What is wrong with me today?
Lucian Love him.
So he rolled it up, and so nowJimmy is essentially over Geffen
and MCA.
Yes, I remember that, so theywant to keep the team, and now
they have all these artdepartments.
They're looking for someone tocome and do what I have done and
(27:53):
now kind of gets famous for,which is rolling art and video
together and making onecommunity and then looking at
everyone they have and decidinglike who's going?
to be this new super team.
Have and deciding like who'sgoing to be this new super team.
So they brought me in to lookat the geffen and mca
departments in art and video andrun them as is until I can make
an assessment of the situationokay and so I went and did that
(28:13):
and loved it I loved it.
And then I worked with thosepeople that I'd known for years
but never worked with, like nowall of a sudden I'm working with
roots and common and most deafwho I knew already but never
worked with them and snoop andblink 182, and like the list
goes on.
Interesting artists, but it wasa shit show.
I'm working for jordan sheerand poly anthony poly anthony,
(28:37):
wow.
And I did this video for talibpauli, called get by, and we had
I'm sorry I going to digresshere, cause this is and so he
says to me oh, we have thisproducer that did this, that did
the track, who I want to be inthe video, so create this video.
I get to the train tracks on125th I think, and we're going
to shoot up there and this kidrolls up with like a suit on
(29:00):
acting crazy Kanye, and we hadthis whole thing, we acting
crazy kanye, and we had thiswhole thing.
We got along, okay.
Three weeks later, here comesrashid coming, kanye's gonna
direct my videos.
So we get into this wholeconversation.
First I think it was one was go, with cassie in it.
Really cassie was in go.
That was a whole notherconversation because she was
dating ryan at the time, and andthen the other one was Go and
(29:22):
another one One was in Chicagoand one was like on a set.
So he comes up with this wholeidea and it's great, but then he
comes to set and wants tostrike everything.
So I tell him hell, no, that'snot going down.
This is not your budget, it'shis budget.
I had to beg and scrap for thebudget I've got.
It's not happening.
So he called polly anthony andI called him immediately, was
(29:52):
like don't ever call my parentsagain.
I would never do that to you.
If you have an issue, you hitme directly.
I didn't give a fuck and we'vebeen, we got on great from there
, but it was just like thebeginning days of all.
That just brings me to like, oh, my early kanye, and then later
on to work with him as anartist years later, but he
definitely was feeling himself.
Then he wanted Cassie,insisting we have Cassie.
It was so hard to get her.
I had to get, like, permissionfrom Ryan.
Then she crossed hands in themiddle with someone else's
(30:13):
girlfriend, so then that persongot involved.
I want to bring it up on herebecause I don't want to get
involved.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Okay, you don't have
to mess, it was such it was so
crazy, but yeah, I went thereand I really loved it.
Did you move to LA or were youstill living in New York at this
time?
Speaker 2 (30:26):
So I tried to move to
LA for a short period of time
because I was going to run thedepartment both.
And then I was newly.
I was divorced.
I was separated now for threeyears from my first husband,
rene, and we were getting alonggreat.
But now I'm dating someone else, I'm going to get married, and
so Renee freaked out and we wentto court and I had to come back
instantly and work, work both,and I tried to quit and just do
(30:47):
my own thing.
But they told me I could bringin a number two.
So I hired this girl namedCiara Pardo.
Amazing, she became my righthand.
I trained her and she wasreally there and I would go
every freaking Wednesday, had tofly to LA for the senior staff
meeting, the marketing meeting,and then, come, the tsa knew me,
it was every week I hope yougot to keep the points.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
What oh you got to
keep the points?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I know of course I
got a lot of points good and
yeah, I left there.
I started my own productioncompany and, with bashley and
anthony mandler and taj and allthese people, was helping
photographers and directorsbuild their own careers so now,
what year is this about?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
when you started the
production company?
You know, like a roundabout.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
Yeah, I would say
like 2002.
Yeah, Because, I ended up doingall this Island Def Jam Mercury
had all these new artists thatsomehow found us.
We were doing all these Rihannaand I was starting all these
killers videos and that's how LAcame to me about coming to IDJ
later on.
It must have been around 2002.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
I forget who I
interviewed on here.
I forget who it was.
We talked about that era andhow that era has spawned so much
that's happening now.
Those people like Avastie, whohad Santos Playhouse and all the
things she had going on as anexample, and all the people that
were in that place are now sobig in like fashion, like I said
(32:11):
, in movies and TV and obviouslymusic and, you see, like
Rihanna and Rocky, and like theywere just kids like hanging out
, and now they've become likethese megastars.
It's a very interesting placeMegastars now they've become
like these uh, mega stars.
It's a very interesting place,mega stars, very interesting um
era in new york city.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
It was great and I
feel like it goes back to a lot
of what I was saying earlier.
It's that now music is so bigwhich is wonderful, all kinds
it's become so genre'd, whereasat that time in new york art was
art.
So if you were a basquiat, ifyou were a Basquiat, if you were
, you know, a Futura, if?
you were a Johnson, if you werea Jeff right, you were a
(32:47):
graffiti artist or a breakdanceror any of these things.
Everyone was in the same place,so it was easy to create.
I remember once sneaking in aslike a 13, some crazy to the
mudroom and see this club and itwas like Tribeca wasn't a thing
, it was dangerous down there,it was all factories.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
I told people all the
time Tribeca and the
Meatpacking District wereterrible, terrible places.
It was horrible.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
So yeah, I saw Grace
Jones in a jello wrestling.
That's how it was down there atthe time.
There was payday hotel Amazon.
You had to know someone to textyou.
It was like you couldn'tadvertise it.
So I think it spawned a timebecause there's so much
imagination, creativity allhappening in pods where it was
all done.
It was baked the movie.
Where you were in the club,there was this artist, someone's
(33:32):
drawing on a napkin, someone'sperforming.
Then you're going outside andsomeone's going to break dance.
It was all happening around you.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Like a Fab Five,
freddy world.
Everywhere you went, mm-hmm,mm-hmm.
It's everywhere you went.
It's like somebody asked you totomorrow I'm shooting a movie.
Come by and you, like you go toa movie set and it's like it
was just so much going on, likeyou said.
But if you had to be in thatcircle, but if you were in that
circle, it was so much happeningin that circle and I remember
um trying to convey that a lotof times at work and that they
couldn't, they didn't understandwhat I was talking about.
(33:59):
I'm like you just because ifyou didn't, you didn't really
even think it was probably real.
It's like because he's justbugging out, he don't really
know what he's talking about,you know.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Oh my God.
And then, years later, I'd bein a senior staff meeting and
someone would be like well, thisweekend I was in the streets
and I was like the streets inScarstown.
The streets, what street?
Because that's the point,no-transcript, You're not in the
(34:30):
zeitgeist of what's making thesound, the art, the film.
Have that thing.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
You managed Vashti.
You said Anthony Mandel, Ididn't manage them.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
I started a
production company to build
their careers and help them getjobs manage them.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
I started a
production company to build
their careers and help them.
They were assigned to yourproduction company.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, box first
pictures and then even when I
went to island after mercury, Itook vashti with me and ciara
also and anthony mandler hasgone on to be a huge director
and you know it was really fun.
I that's something that I lovethe most.
My daughter and my son alwayscomplain like I met this person
they're like your mom changed mylife.
Like that's sparking people andyou and I share that like
(35:06):
helping people figure out theirpassion yeah, I mean, that's a,
that's my drug.
I think that's why I got on withthe native tongues early too,
because that's all I wanted todo is like you and you, you and
you make a thing, you make athing, you do a thing, do a
record together.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
He should, he should
shoot the radio and yeah, yeah,
yeah.
So tell me about, um, uh, goingto def jam with la how that
came about thank you becauseI've always wanted to say so.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
I am now having this
production company.
I'm loving it.
I have a house in woodstock.
I'm pretty much there thursdayto monday if the kids are not in
school driving them, I'm just.
I'm being my perfect hippieself.
I've got my garden.
I'm like I'm good.
I don't want to ever work at arecord label again, right.
So now we've done our thirdRihanna video and like our
second or third Killers video,so you're rolling, you're
(35:53):
rolling, you're rolling.
We're doing so well as acompany.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Which Rihanna videos
did you do?
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Unfaithful, many
unfaithful, many unfaithful is
the first one that came up, butwe did a bunch and um, I get
this call from jeff, jeff.
Uh, jeff burroughs, of course,jeff burroughs I was at la
reed's house in the hamptons youknow, la that sounds like girls
.
I don't know la reed because Idon't go to white parties in
chair like I pour my kids out bynever being able to go to
(36:21):
anything.
So I don't't actually know.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
I'm picking radishes
bro up in Wistock.
I don't know about that.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
Right, I'm at the PTA
, I'm like, oh and at work, and
you know me, I go to work 8 am.
Yeah, I play my music and myteam go in.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
I'm like leaving at
the thing.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
So LA is like I need
you on my team and I'm like that
sounds amazing, but I'm notteam available right now.
I've got my production companyThank you very much, you're
funding it very well.
But if you want, I'm helpingyou find someone.
And he was like not having it.
So, like six of these callslater, I finally have a meeting
with him.
I try to convince him again.
Like let me help you findsomeone.
He's like no, I want you.
And I explained.
I explained.
I was like well, here's how Iwork.
Like I couldn't even come infor the role you want, which I
think is the head of the artdepartment.
(37:06):
That's what he was offering atthe time.
I was like what I do is thisand I explain what I do and I've
trained a lot of people to dothat now and I only work with
people who can do everything.
Like if I, when I went to mcageffen, like it was my thing
that if you were in video or art, you had to learn at the end
how to be a full creativedirector to do it all, because
you weren't leaving my watch notbeing able to actually be
viable in the world, becausenowhere else is there not a
(37:27):
cohesive, creative department atany other company.
You know it's not.
It's not.
So he was like, yes, so I hit.
So I had an attorney at thetime, jennifer Justice, who I
love, but I knew that I had toadvocate for myself big in this
moment.
So I found out who Elaine'sattorney was, which is Kenny
Maisalis, and I reached out toKenny Maisalis and I said this
is what I'm trying to do.
(37:47):
I want to make an offer.
I want to put an offer on thetable that's so obnoxious that
they're going to say no, but yetnot obviously so obnoxious.
It's not somewhere in the realmof other deals.
I don't want you to tell meanyone's deal, but guide me here
.
He said absolutely, and so Igave them this, this, this offer
that I would take the job.
(38:07):
If I roll the departmentstogether, I get this much time
off.
I have like everything I wanted.
And they said yes, everything.
So I prayed and I was like, allright, god, I guess you're
telling me what no pushback.
Zero.
This is probably the last yearof these two.
I have to say, you know, can I?
Speaker 1 (38:25):
tell you a quick
story, please.
I just uh boo acon's brother mygood friend yeah, yeah, of
course, he's a good, great,great dude he came by jive one
day, just random.
I don't even know why he was.
I think he was dead because hewas working with t-pain at the
time.
And he came by and we all juststarted.
You know, we go, you starttalking.
It's like aiding the in theoffice and you know somebody
walks in.
(38:45):
Oh, he started talking and bootold me the exact same story he
said when, when la wanted him tocome to death jam and boo was
like I'm just gonna ask him forlike something crazy.
And he said yes, and boo waslike he said yes yeah, and if he
wants you, he wants you andit's no, nothing's gonna stop
him from getting you, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Oh, my God nothing.
And because I actuallycomplained to Barry about this
once.
I was laughing.
Jive is like working atStanford or MIT, like we're
efficient but we're not a scene,we're not cutthroat.
Even when there's an issue,it's like a little issue.
I walked in that first day.
It was literally like the sceneof the Mean Girls movie where
they're all walking in Like itwas nuts in there.
(39:25):
I've never experienced Like ifyou weren't hot you wouldn't
even be able to go in LA'soffice.
Sometimes it was so fucked.
My second, my first week, I getan email from someone that we
both know.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
I'm not going to out
them.
This woman was marketing forRockefeller at the time.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Ok, ok, rockefeller
at the time.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
Okay, okay.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Send me an email.
All caps she puts on the headof Def Jam, Jay-Z.
The head of Def Jam, thechairman, LA, and Steve Bartels
and me on this email about Jay'svideo.
All caps, like trying to likeshit on me, Like you don't
understand and you think, andyou, this DP, like she was
(40:02):
tearing me a new asshole.
And I remember sitting thereweek one like I should never
have taken this job.
Why the hell did I come here?
And then I was like I'm gonnahandle this way I handle things.
So, instead of like I don'tknow the different, ways I could
handle it.
I was like, got it.
I sent her back an emaileveryone on it thank you so much
for your passion.
I love a company that is so onfire for their artists that
(40:26):
they'll send a very complicatedword and I think in the future
since your office is literallyless than 100 feet from mine
that you and I, as genius,creative women, can handle
things in the future without ourtwo presidents and a chairman
in every email.
I'm praying that.
I'm praying that's somethinglike that Crazy.
At that moment.
I'm praying, that's somethinglike that Crazy.
At that moment, I heardfootsteps running to my door and
(40:47):
Jay was like yo, I've neverseen anyone.
So it was hard, it was a lot, itwas challenging.
Like I come into life verykumbaya, you know like, yeah, I
like working as a collective, Ilove everyone, and it was primed
I'm not even shitting on her.
It was a prime situation tolike beat each other's throats
(41:07):
Like it was set up to be fuckedup and I lost a dear friend who
took his life while I workedthere and I it was literally the
way it was handled that madehim go where he's going Like I
watched the demise of a humanand other humans hand made him
go where he's going.
Like I watched the demise of ahuman and other humans hand.
And when, when he took his life, I called in and said I think
(41:28):
we need to address the companyand was shut down Like he's weak
.
And after that I checked outand I was never going to be part
of the company.
How long were you there?
Three and a half years.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
Yeah, wow, wow, wow
Well.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Three and a half
years.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, wow, wow, wow.
Well, give me one spicy storyabout, besides the one you just
told, which was great about youand the girl.
Give me another spicy storyabout one of the artists or
something I know you got amillion of them.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Oh my God, I have so
many.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Whatever?
Speaker 2 (42:02):
For some reason this
has come to mind, and if it's
not spicy enough, I'll give youanother one.
But we used to have thesemandatory things at our boss's
house in the Hamptons and we hadone now honoring an artist I
think it was honoring Mariah andsomebody whose name you
mentioned earlier, who was notpart of the label but was
invited came to the party withtrays of baked infused brownies
baked infused brownies and Iremember I was in the bathroom
(42:23):
and I said to them be carefulwhere you put that, because the
caterers are here, they're goingto put that into the thing, and
my second husband my friendsused to call wet blanket, and so
I was having no fun and I wasnot going to partake in any of
that anyway, because in thosedays I was really trying to be a
good wife and so I didn't doanything and so I was just so
tired of wet blanket.
by that point I was like let'sgo home and we're going to drive
(42:44):
home.
I get calls three hours laterfrom like Shakir, karen Kwok,
like everyone, that apparentlyeveryone ate these brownies.
Not knowing artists were lyingon the floor, according to Dave
Massey, who I love, dave Massey,he said one artist, who
remained nameless, was like inthe fetal position, like's
happening to me, people nakedrunning down the road.
(43:05):
And I was like, thank you, wetblanket, because of your boring
ass, I didn't do any of thesethings.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
I didn't smoke, I
didn't do anything, and now I'm
going home to watch TV but thereare so many spicy stories.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
I mean that place was
so much fun.
It was treacherous but fun,like, for example, every time
Jermaine did a showcase we werein Atlanta.
He's got that stripper thingset up in his room.
Then we always have like a freemeeting at the strip club and
then we'd go somewhere else andit was just like always an
adventure and everyone wasfucking fun.
I don't know why.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I'm curs christian's
place today everyone was so fun
like when they were on the road.
Artist, you guys had amazing.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Your roster was
insanity insane and I loved
everyone.
We had some people.
Here's some fun stories.
La at one point decides thatevery single person he's ever
loved should get a new recorddeal.
So now, all of a sudden I'msitting in front of terry lewis
and you know I have nothing butrespect for anyone that comes up
for me.
So I've been prepped by la totell him all these things that
he has to do and I'm likeluckily we love each other.
(44:04):
But then three weeks later Iget kenny baby face in front of
me same thing.
And then la is like tell kennywhat he used to do to modernize
all these things.
And I'm just in there like, ohmy god, and I had to like really
have some crazy conversationswith a fellow aries, kenny,
which is not, we're not easy butalso we just we love.
We fell in love like I love himso much.
But that whole process was sohard.
(44:25):
Like I'd give a suggestion he'dget pissed, he'd call la, la
would call me.
He'd have to fake that he wasupset that I have to go such a
mess um things like that.
All the time we were shootingthe kingdom come video, jay-z's
comeback.
We were in monaco and then allof a sudden there was this crazy
storm.
We had to stay another twoweeks and end up being just like
day after day of, like Jay andhis new girlfriend Bea and Trey
(44:46):
Wap and Margo and Chaka Pilgrimand all of us like eating these,
and Tata, who I'm obsessed with.
And he did these amazing meals.
Strategizing this video for dayslooking at this.
Speaker 4 (44:57):
In Monaco.
Speaker 2 (44:58):
In Monaco, like just
amazing things and then really
fun things, like I loved workingwith you know, like just some
interesting younger artists thatwe had and doing the things
that we did in our early days,which I think is what you and I
are acclaimed to fame like itwas very important to you and I
that when artists came out thatwe represented where they were
from, organically, authenticallythem, their people, why we
(45:20):
signed them and I was able tokind of bring where I wasn't
really able to do that so muchin my mca geffen days.
I was able to really come backto that for a lot of the rock
nation roster and a lot of thenew artists and there were so
many a and r people there andthey understood that when I got
passionate I would go Like todigress.
I had this project that Mos Defwas putting out called the N
(45:42):
Word, and he had no budget.
So I stalked this hugephotographer, peggy Sirota, and
did this amazing.
Just got Sue's rendezvous to doa video shoot set up for almost
for free.
So that passion now I'm knownfor.
So it was fun having all theseyoung A&R people from KP to
Jermaine to I can keep goingcoming in like trying to sell me
(46:05):
.
Boo was an intern, not Sterling,but the A&R Ray Romulus, like
all these young, super talentedyeah creative people coming in,
like wanting me to get theirperson, like sitting with them
and really figuring out what.
And even my first meeting withrihanna it was after sos and she
started complaining that, likesome people, remain nameless.
(46:27):
We're not wanting her to wearred lipstick, not wanting her to
be herself and we're puttingher in a box.
And I said to her one line I waslike well, every superstar I've
ever worked with, neverlistened to anyone but
themselves, and the firstproject we did together was good
girl, gone bad.
So stuff, stuff like that, andlike I was all for, like she
kept saying Ellie's gonna fireyou and I was like great, let's
(46:47):
do this Like and we have so muchfun like pushing the edges.
And that brought me back to mychildhood of like, blondie and
you know, even like the Wow Wow.
Wow.
Lead singer Annabelle.
Shor was so ahead of her time.
But women who push the edges,and so it was so much fun to do
that.
Those kind of things.
I could go on and on and on sowhat now which after?
Speaker 1 (47:09):
was that your last
industry job?
Speaker 2 (47:11):
uh, def Jam correct
so what had happened was this
everyone was so obsessed withartists at that place that's the
one thing we signed JanetJackson and different people and
Mariah and I ended up doing alot of projects that weren't so
fun and I was just starting toget tired, and my team now,
because I was talking so much,it grew and I was now the EVP of
creative marketing and digitaland I really had no business
(47:33):
doing marketing at all because Ireally didn't know it.
I'm not good at that.
You have to be a verydetail-oriented person, but I
could.
Also.
I hired karen veezy and someother people, but by that point,
maybe I wasn't fucking theright people, so everything I
did started to be bad.
So now I'm in these marketingmeetings where I'm getting
slaughtered by la like it wasbrutal.
I've heard about those meetingslook literally like slaughtered,
(47:56):
and so I was getting sick andtired of it.
I'd had some complicated thingswhere people had crossed the
boundaries with me in ways thatwere not okay.
So I was already pissed, andthen my love Shakir was like
battling a lot of stuff.
The way he was being handledwas disgusting.
So when he took his life, I hadsome very strongly worded
conversations and I was out andat the same time there was this
(48:16):
artist who, whatever, but hebrought in this kid, he'd signed
and this kid was 14.
His name was Justin Bieber.
So, and he brought this manager, scooter Braun, and I wasn't
going to just trick out money.
This is not the 90s.
Like I didn't operate that way.
The way I operate with all newartists.
as you know is, I'm going totake a tiny budget.
I'm going to do some smallthings and see where we go.
(48:36):
So I wanted to do a video and aphoto shoot for Justin Bieber
to see what he needed.
Did he need training?
Does he need whatever?
And Usher was furious and wasbattling me about it, and I
think Scooter was more open tokind of this, justin was signed
to Usher at this time, correct?
And signed now to Island DefJam.
Speaker 1 (48:54):
Mercury To Def Jam.
Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
I think to Island
actually Okay, to Island Mercury
.
But I think the Island actuallyOkay, the Island Mercury.
But I ran the creative for allIsland Def Jam and Mercury group
Mm-hmm.
When that whole thing happenedI started working very closely
with Scooter and Usher andUsher's career was not going so
well at the time.
It was post-Tamika.
He made a lot of stances.
(49:17):
He was a little bit ahead ofhis time in that now it is so
cool to be about a relationship.
Then it wasn't.
He was a heartthrob.
It was weird.
He did that weird TRL thing andhe kept asking me to help him
and I was like I have a contract, I cannot be helping you.
You know, and frankly I'm not afan.
You know I'm not.
I know I like two songs.
He I pod at the moment I hadtwo songs on there love in the
(49:39):
club and you got a bad.
It was it.
And but then when Shakir passed, I took, I said to him and CR,
and I cause, cause, at one pointRihanna was blowing up and she
really needed dedication andthere was a lot of people who
had the Chris lady thing where Ionly talked to the head, which
I'm not about that.
Talk to her as the best person.
So I had mariah and jay andjanet and kanye.
(50:01):
It was a lot.
At the same time, I think that'sa lot so I introduced rihanna
and ciara and there's a girl thegirl who was doing the justin
bieber stuff, um gabrielleschwartz, and I was like I think
you two be the best rihannateam and put them together.
So now me and ciara are goingto form a company to work with
Usher possibly Kanye in someconversations and Usher.
(50:25):
So I started this littlecompany, we started a company
called Pyre and we started doingthings with them, but I
couldn't have imagined how muchwork that was going to be.
So I was working with LionelRich maybe at the time and I met
Randy who was his manager andhe was bragging.
He had another carve-out and Irealized that what Janetta did
with Usher at the time was tryto bring his touring back to
(50:45):
females and did the Fair LadiesOnly tour.
And that was wonderful inconcept, but you know how
touring is.
So once you're a stadium orarena, if you go to theater, the
promoters think you're theater.
So I had this challenge now.
So I brought Randy in and I wasgoing to just kind of help, you
know.
And now brought Randy in and Iwas going to just kind of help,
(51:06):
you know, and now there was somefunny business happening.
So I'm kind of like agirlfriend ish.
So I was trying to just not bein the thick of it.
And so Randy came in and thatwas fantastic, but it needed so
much more.
I just didn't know.
I was so inexperienced I had noidea.
I think not knowing really whatmanagement really needed was
good for me at the time.
And then I went into fullmanagement when Usher and Randy
just imploded and that was hard,that was, and I I did a
(51:26):
kick-ass job.
I've told you I called Barry.
Barry had always been a championof mine and I called him about
this opportunity and he shit allover my dream, like he's like
no, you're not going to be agood manager, don't do this.
And that fueled the shit out ofme and I was like I'm gonna
make this happen.
And that changed his filmbusiness, got him in movies yeah
the voice you know rearranged,helped him figure out how to
(51:47):
start writing songs.
Climax is the first song hereally wrote the west and salon
remy.
And you know his style artphilanthropy.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Like I really worked
the shit out of that for
multiple years and really did agreat, a great job at really
reinventing him.
Right so he would have stayedon that path previous to when
you got involved.
I don't.
I doubt very seriously he'd bewhere he is now.
I mean I'm not saying that froma vantage point.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
There were conceptual
things that he had to change.
You know humping the steeringwheel.
He hates when I talk about thatand that's not bad.
It's just that there's nothingin life that can stay the same.
You know money is an issue.
You know what People alwayswonder why Michael Jackson's
hanging out with all thesepeople in the least.
But he didn't have a privatebusiness and you only can and I
learned that from Lionel and theonly way that you can have a
(52:36):
private business is to have somepop things that someone wants a
wedding or a thing and thatsounds cheesy, but they're going
to spend three million dollarsalone for your fee for that and
then that's going to afford you,when the grammys and the oscars
and the superbowl is not payinga dime, you're not coming out
of pocket.
So I really wanted to build areal, an ecosystem that was
sustainable forever.
Um, so that, I consider, is mylast label job, because it was
(52:59):
horrible.
I mean, I learned so much and Igot to do some amazing fun ass
shit around the world.
Speaker 4 (53:01):
I mean that I
consider as my last label job
because it was horrible.
Speaker 2 (53:02):
I mean I learned so
much and I got to do some
amazing fun ass shit around theworld.
I mean, you and I could have awhole talk.
I got to do some wild ass shit,but it was just the hardest
thing I've ever done includingparenting.
You know it's the family it was, it was a lot.
Speaker 1 (53:17):
It was a lot.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
And then I left there
mentally, emotionally and
physically broken and I was likeI'm never going to do that
again, I'm never going toneglect myself to that place in
my life again, and I went on ajourney of discovering myself
for the first time.
Speaker 1 (53:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:33):
And see how much, so
much of the shit in the music
industry that I thought was justpar for the course was really
terrible.
Yeah, it is.
It broke.
A lot of us and you know youand I together we have so many
adult friends have taken theirlife and I have a lot of friends
who don't have that and I thinkthere's a lot about what the
music industry pushes, aboutyour validity in the world based
(53:55):
on these relationships, and Ididn't have that part, but I
definitely was so inside of allof it that I was a part of all
that.
Speaker 1 (54:02):
Yeah, for a lot, for
so many people in the music
industry, that becomes yourpersonality, your personality,
and it becomes who you are.
Like I'm Jeffrey Sledge fromWarner Brothers.
I'm, you know, michael Thompsonfrom Def Jam.
It's like that becomes part ofyour name, almost when you're
working and what you do.
It's like if you say you lose agig or something happens and
(54:26):
you lose that, it's almost likepeople are like who am I?
Because I'm not, I don't havemy corporate card, I can't go to
Monaco, I can't go to the videoshoot, I can't go to a party at
the Soul House.
It becomes so ingrained intoyour life that when it's gone,
people feel lost.
People sacrifice families,people don't ever get married.
(54:49):
A lot of women never havechildren because it's about the
job first.
And then you look up and it'slike now I'm you know, no
disrespect, I'm 55.
And I have maybe some goodmoney in the bank, but that's
really it.
Speaker 4 (55:04):
And do you, because
there's also this whole
mentality like LA told us we hadto look a certain way to be the
C-suite.
Speaker 2 (55:09):
Like I had to wear
heels, I had to look a certain
way.
Speaker 4 (55:11):
I heard about that.
People are spending money.
I heard about that.
People are spending money andalso.
Speaker 2 (55:15):
I think too, it's
like, thank God I had friends.
Most of my friends to this dayare friends I've had since I was
a kid and you know amazingfriends that I've amassed, like
you, over the years, but we havea real bond of a real
friendship.
So many people think that youknow, like Chase is your friend
and maybe he is during theproject, but if you're looking
to call him after and you're,you're basing your value on that
(55:38):
you're in trouble.
You know it's funny you saythat about women.
When I first was in the musicindustry and I was at Jive,
julia and I wanted to start acommunity for women who were
starting out and I reached outto Polly Anthony, michelle
Anthony, sylvia Rohn, a fewpeople and I remember Sylvia
saying all of them in differentways, but yeah, give up having a
family, give up wanting to havea family.
(55:58):
You got to really proveyourself as a woman and be 10
toes down and I was like, oh,I'm not going to make it in here
.
Speaker 1 (56:04):
Then Cause I'm
definitely having children.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
I'm definitely doing
all these things.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
You're going to be a
mom not just having children,
but you're a mom Like.
You're like a real mom.
Speaker 2 (56:26):
You have a kid and
the child amazing.
But what?
That's what was being promotedto them exactly and that's
what's trickling down to women.
Speaker 1 (56:30):
Now, like you're
saying yeah, yeah, yeah.
So uh, before we wrap, tell mea little about uh, joy
strategist, you're, you're a joystrategist.
Um, so tell me a little bitabout that.
It's how you came about, cameto be, you've written a book.
Speaker 2 (56:41):
Tell me a little bit
about that.
Speaker 1 (56:41):
It's how you came
about, came to be.
You've written a book.
Tell me about this phase ofyour life.
Speaker 2 (56:46):
Thank you.
Well, first of all, I wrote abook.
It's called the Joy Strategist.
It's on Disney.
I had a bidding war over thebook.
I didn't know that was even apossibility.
The whole thing was surreal.
But really it started for meyears ago and, being a mother
and having young parents, itgave me a wonderful opportunity
to write this new script in alot of ways Like, how do I want
to parent?
And I remember working withthis life coach and she couldn't
(57:09):
get me to get a lot of thingsabout myself.
And then she said you know what?
The one area where you're doingthe thing I want you to do is
in parenting.
And because no one can tell youanything about that, like
there's no touching that and notthat no one could tell me.
I'm listening to people whoolder people have raised kids
and I'm taking information, butno one is attacking my version
of the way, the mastery of it,the way.
(57:30):
I feel, and I realized that Iwasn't doing that with myself,
like I'd missed this amazingopportunity, alongside these
children, to reinvent myself, togrow and expand past this
pre-verbal story.
I told myself when I was a baby, wanting to have love.
Oh, you know what?
They didn't pay attention whenI did that cartwheel, but they
really liked it when I madedinner, they really liked it
(57:50):
when I brought the mail in.
So I taught myself thishyper-vigilant caretaker person
is love and just took that showon the road forever with
partners, with co-workers, witheveryone, and I'd never stopped
to feel like what do I feel?
I was getting divorced now thethird time, happily, because I
tried, I worked hard, hard, hardin all those relationships.
(58:10):
But something's wrong here andI don't believe that anything is
one-sided.
There's nothing that anyone cando to you without some version
of your permission and gettingsomething out of it, even if
it's horrible, you know.
So I had to look at that partof myself that's not sitting
here villainizing ushers beingthe downfall of my life, but
like what did I sign up for?
And it was sad what I saw.
(58:31):
It was sad what I experiencedfor myself.
And then I started talkingabout it with all my friends.
No one could see it becausewe're all so committed to not
seeing it.
And so I really wrote this bookfor my own children, to talk
about my kids right now.
My daughter thinks I walk onwater.
She thinks I'm the best mom inthe world.
My son, he's got a lot ofcomplaints, a lot, and I hear
(58:55):
him and I hold both becausethey're both true, because
that's his experience, that'sher experience exactly and then
I was like, oh, I've neverallowed myself to have that
experience of myself, so thatwas really important and it
really helped me also shedspiritual egoism of wanting
everyone to be a certain way orchange.
Remember, I used to try to fixeveryone's office.
Speaker 1 (59:13):
Oh, yeah oh, yeah, so
now I just like.
Speaker 2 (59:15):
This is what worked
for me and this is how I am, you
know, know, I feel so good, Ifeel so alive, I feel so, but
I've also the mostunder-resourced in my whole life
.
I'm the most like I'm not in arelationship.
I mean, I'm in an intimaterelationship but I'm not in a
traditional marriage.
But all of those things weremaking me move forward in a way
(59:37):
of a life I built.
That wasn't a true life for me.
It was the life that I wassupposed to build, based on the
model of success that I thoughtwas supposed to happen.
And so now I do retreats andworkshops.
I do everything from coupleswork.
I do a workshop called theOracle of Oral, and it sounds
really naughty and it's notreally.
It's more to understand thatbeing intimate with anyone
(59:57):
starts with using your voice andlearning what you feel is good
to you, what do you enjoy, andwe can't even express that to
each other.
So how can we even be mad aboutsomeone not being an incredible
partner or lover or whateverwe're mad about?
And then I do one called theEmpire of Me, which is going
back to Jeff Sledge from day oneand saying let's redo this,
let's start this from scratch.
(01:00:18):
I started my process.
I was swaddling myself, Istarted giving myself a bath
during the pandemic and readinga book.
Like I started just to go backand instead of wah, wah, wah
about my parents, sort of toreintroduce the parenting to
myself that I needed, and I wentback and had a meal with each
of my parents alone, like I'dnever met them before and just
tried to find the humanity andlike where are we?
(01:00:38):
Where do we?
We relate?
let me put down the story ofwhat you didn't do 35 years ago
realizing that everyone is anamateur parent the very first
time everyone.
So how can I approach thisdifferently and not continue
this family karma of my sonhating me or my kids having an
issue and they're just takingresponsibility for that?
So it's been fun, it's beenhard.
(01:00:58):
Pre-pandemic people laughed atme Joy, what yeah?
Now people are like joy.
Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
I'm desperate for joy
.
I need it.
Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
I need it, but even
more than that everyone's issue
is our interpersonalrelationship, so I've been doing
a lot of joy work, more aboutintimacy than anything.
Yeah, intimacy with yourself,honest with yourself, so it's
been interesting.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
It's been interesting
, ronnie.
You know I tell people, I tella lot of my friends now.
You know, you see, you knowpictures of your parents, you
know at a party back in the day,or you know whatever a cookout,
whatever it is, and I'm like yo, bro, like think about it, like
now, now where we are now,we're probably like 15 to 20
years older than they were inthis picture.
(01:01:40):
They were kids, man, exactly,they were kids.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
And I've thought
about that a lot too.
It's like they didn't know.
They were like 20-somethingyears old and they were trying
to do this thing and, of course,making mistakes along the way
because they didn't know, or alot of them had bad examples.
So you can't really like said,you can't be like, oh, my father
(01:02:06):
did this and it's fucked up, mymother did this and she didn't.
You know, they, she, theyhopefully were trying the best
they could and you know, theyjust didn't know.
And now you look at them nowit's like, oh yeah, they were
like 23 in this picture and wealways looked at them as old,
but they were kids trying tofigure it out, you know I also
think that's important too.
Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Like part of what I
was saying of this, I was on the
success model.
We, till this day, live this,this idea of life, especially
promoted by media, movies andthings that were supposed to be
on this happy trail.
But actually the only true pathto happiness is holding your
shadow and your light at alltimes, and there's been a lot of
things in my life that I'm notnecessarily proud of.
But I'm grateful because if Ihadn't had that diamond moment
(01:02:46):
like that forging or thatcracking open, or that I
wouldn't have the awareness tohelp me grow and expand, to
really lean into the magic andjoy I feel now.
And so I've been really workingto feel into things that feel
amazing and things that don'tfeel amazing, and holding them
both as magic.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Well, thank you,
grace, this was fun.
Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
I know I talked your
ear off.
I'm like there's so much.
Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
You absolutely did
not talk my ear off.
You absolutely did not.
You did what I wanted you to do.
I wanted you to share yourstory.
You didn't talk my ear off.
We talked my ear off.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
We could do this for
five hours I know, I was like oh
, I just remember this story.
Speaker 1 (01:03:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but
this was fun.
I really had a good time.
Speaker 2 (01:03:26):
Thank you.
Me too, I always love to seeyou.
Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Always love you.
You can catch Mixed andMastered on Apple Podcasts,
spotify, iheart or wherever youget your podcasts.
Hit that follow button, leave areview and tell a friend I'm
your host, jeffrey Sledge.
Mixed and Mastered is producedand distributed by Merrick
Studios.