Joseph Patel

Oscar-winning filmmaker, producer, and journalist Joseph Patel joins Jeffrey Sledge for a deep, honest, and inspiring conversation about music, media, and finding your true voice.

Patel shares his journey from growing up in the Bay Area to becoming a key part of the college radio and underground hip-hop scenes at UC Davis—where he connected with legends like DJ Shadow and Blackalicious. He opens up about his rise through the industry, from early music journalism to producing groundbreaking content at MTV, including the acclaimed My Block series.

Joseph also talks about teaming up with Questlove to create Summer of Soul, the award-winning documentary that unearthed the lost history of the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival—and went on to win the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature.

Now, he's turning his lens toward the next chapter: directing a documentary on the legendary J Dilla.

🎧 This one’s for the culture, the creators, and anyone chasing the real.

Support the show

Mixed and Mastered is produced and distributed by Merrick Studio, and hosted by music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to the discussion on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @MixedandMasteredPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://mixedandmasteredpod.buzzsprout.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Mixed and Mastered.
Today we have an Oscar-winningfilmmaker, joseph Patel.
He and Questlove won an Oscarfor Summer of Soul and they
dropped their new film, slyLives, on Hulu.
He is now working on anupcoming documentary about the
hip-hop legend, j Dilla.
From music journalist tofilmmaker, joseph's career has

(00:23):
been nothing short of amazing.
This is Mixed and Mastered withJoseph Patel.
Welcome to Mixed and Mastered,the podcast where the stories of
the music industry come to life.
I'm Jeffrey Sledge, bringingyou real conversations with the
people who have shaped the soundof music.

(00:43):
We're pulling back the curtainon what it takes to make it in
the music business.
These are the stories you won'thear anywhere else, told by the
people who live them.
This is Mixed and Mastered.
Mixed and Mastered with my man,joseph Patel.

(01:05):
How you doing, bro?
I'm good man, good to see you.
You too, man.
It's been quite a long time.
You know.
We kind of stay in touch viasocial media, but we haven't
seen each other, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
I mean, I feel like that's a lot of your life right
now.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
I think it's a lot of all of our lives right now.
Hey, so quick.
Do you want me to call youJazzy Bo or Joseph Patel?
Joseph, what do you want?
Joseph is fine, all right, Ithink that's what I've always
called you anyway.
Actually, yeah, so you wereborn in the Bay Area Fresno.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
No, I was born in Pennsylvania, but I grew up in
the Bay Area.
You grew up in the Bay yeah, atown called Fremont.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Fremont.
Excuse me, Now, how far is thatfrom Oakland?
Like 15 minutes.
Oh, so you're right there inthe mix.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, it goes like Oakland Hayward.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Fremont yeah, I've been to Hayward, I've never been
to Fremont.
I took there's a street inOakland that takes you all
through all of thatInternational.
Is it international or justtakes you straight down through
every time?
International and mission.
Maybe I think it wasinternational because, yeah,
because I think mission yeah,and then 14th does that too, but

(02:13):
yeah, yeah, yeah so tell meabout growing up in the bay oh
man.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
So I landed in the bay when I was like five and you
know fremont is this likesuburban town.
It was very immigrant heavy.
You're starting to get veryimmigrant heavy.
When my family moved there andyou know the thing about the Bay
is that it's very diverse.
So, like my, you know schoolexperiences are being in a
classroom with black, white,cambodian, vietnamese.

(02:39):
You know Filipino, big Filipinopopulation.
All the best looking girls inhigh school were Filipino.
And you know, at the bigFilipino population, uh, all the
best looking girls in highschool were Filipino.
And you know, at the same time,it's it the parts of the Bay
are also very segregated too,but nine times out of 10, you're
in a situation where you'rejust with other people of color.
You know it was.
It was a interesting, boring.

(03:01):
You know suburban childhoodLike, but a couple of things
like really, you know I hadreally music, was the thing that
?
That was my sort of gateway outof there.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
So let me, let me.
Let me tell you one quick thing.
When I when I spent a lot oftime in Oakland years ago, but
there was a time when I was outthere a lot and in San, I always
stayed in San Francisco and itwas always get on my back Like
why, are you staying in the city?
Why are you staying in Oakland?
I'm like.
I don't want to stay in the city, but anyway, the one thing I
noticed about Oakland I wonderif I'm saying, say, I wonder if

(03:35):
Fremont was the same way.
If you met somebody fromOakland, like you said, matter
white, black, but they alwayssaid I'm from oakland, oakland
was like the first.
They didn't say I'm like blackfrom oakland, or I'm green or
I'm filipino.
It was like oakland was thecommon denominator for everybody
or even more specific, westoakland or east oakland.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
Right, like everyone I ever met from oakland
specified I'm from west oakland,I'm from east oakland, um
fremont, wasn't that?
Fremont's not as cool as oakFremont?
Like you know, when you're fromFremont you say you're from the
Bay.
You're not really trying to sayyou're from.
Fremont.
But what's funny is, like youknow, music for me was like the

(04:20):
way I was able to learn aboutthe world Right, so I was like a
goth skate kid in high schoolwhere you know I liked.
I liked Bauhaus and Susie andthe Banshees and the Cure and
New Order, as much as I likedPublic Enemy and the Red Hot
Chili Peppers, and you know itwas like it just was a weird mix

(04:42):
like that.
And a lot of that was from youknow, there's two people in my
life that I met where it justlike opened me up to a different
world.
Too short was real big, like weused to play street football
and street baseball in thelittle cul-de-sac.
I grew up in listening to tooshort and run DMC and like you
know so it was just like musiceverywhere and that was sort of

(05:04):
like the thing that saved me, Ithink, from like a boring
suburban life.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
Real quick before we move to the next thing.
Give me your Bay Area MountRushmore, since everybody Mount
Rushmore is kind of a big thing.
Now Give me a Bay Area MountRushmore.
I'm not playing the MountRushmore game, okay.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
I'll give you my, I'll give you my like, I'll give
you like top.
I mean it's funny Cause it'sdifferent now than it was then
for me.
Right, like, definitely.
I mean short is definitely onthere.
Sly, slide stone.
Right, we have the newdocumentary by Sly he's, he's,
he's in, he's in the top five.
Let's see who else you'd.
I've never been a huge Santanafan.

(05:42):
I don't know, man, that's atough question.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
All right, I'll leave .
It All right, I'll leave it LilB.

Speaker 2 (05:48):
Lil B's got to be on there.
E-40.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
E-40.
Yeah, dj.

Speaker 2 (05:52):
Shadow.
I put DJ Shadow on there.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah, I mean, there's Letitia Cole.

Speaker 2 (06:01):
There's Rafael Sadiq.
I mean probably top five.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Right, yeah, the Bay has put out a lot of talent.
So you went to Cal Davis, ucDavis yeah, davis, tell me about
that, and I know that's whereyou kind of tapped into the
college radio thing.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, I mean it's funny.
After the Oscars a couple yearsago, I got an email from the
chancellor of UC Davis, reallyGary May, and he was like you
know, chancellor, would like toinvite you to be the first guest
for the upcoming school year'schancellor conversations.
Wow.
I did not really love myexperience, my academic
experience at UC Davis.

(06:36):
I was a econ major with anEnglish minor and you know I
don't remember learning anythingLike honestly, and you know I
don't remember learning anythingLike honestly.
I learned more about life thanI did about like academics.
Right, yes, but you know Ireally started getting into
college radio when I was in highschool because, living in

(06:58):
Fremont, we had KZSU andStanford you could get, and KFJC
and the Los Altos Hills andKSJC and San Jose and Calix and
Berkeley.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
Calix, I remember that.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, all those stations, depending on which
part of the Bay you were in youcould get, and so I was really
listening to college radio a lot.
So when I got to Davis, firstthing I did I started listening
to college radio and I heard twoshows.
One was from Jeff Chang, dj Zen, and the other was from a woman
.
I forget her real name, but herradio name was Voodoo Child,
and those two shows just rockedmy world Like they were just

(07:32):
incredible.
A lot of hip hop but a lot oflike.
Voodoo Child used to play a lotof like I was really into like
Funkadelic and stuff like that,and so she used to play a lot of
that.
And so I went down to thestation one day when Jeff had
his show and I got to meet him.
He ends up becoming my mentor.
He just was like, takes me in,right, and we would come by the
radio station.
Now who else was at the radiostation was DJ Shadow, who lived

(07:52):
in Davis, josh Davis, and thenChief XL and Lyrics Born Chief
XL from Blackalicious.
Lyrics Born Tom Shmura.
At the time he was Asia born,okay, and we were just like at
the radio station all the timeand I was not a rapper, I was
not a DJ.
I was writing for magazines atthe time.
Okay.

(08:13):
And really just my friends zines.
Jeff was writing for magazines,real magazines.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
I told him I wanted to do what he did and so he sort
of like, showed me the ropes.
And you know, there was somehip hop magazines being born
around that time, early, early90s, right like the bomb hip-hop
magazine flavor out of seattle.
So I started writing.
I started when I startedhanging out with jeff at his
radio show and got to meet allthese other people.
But jeff, you know, he's justsuch a, such a generous spirit,

(08:41):
so like he's, he's not agatekeeper.
Jeff chan is not a gatekeeper.
He's like oh, you want to dothis here.
Let me show you how this worksyeah, he's very free with the
information yeah, so sorry, Igotta turn my phone down, all
right.
So yeah, I just started hangingout the station and I ended up
getting a show and you knowthere was not a lot of hip-hop

(09:03):
shows on college radio at thetime, and so it was jeff.
And then I started doing onechief excel, started doing one
um, and I loved it.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
It was great yeah, it was a good time.
That's when I was doing apromotion.
I would come to the bay a lotbecause we had a I worked a job,
we had a lot of acts out there,but also it was a big you said
college radio scene out thereand then the gavin convention
and all that stuff.
So it was a great chance to goout there and meet people and go
around and see how how itworked.

(09:31):
You know it was.
You know it's obviously verymuch different now, but that was
.
That was a good scene, you know.
And going to leopold's and youknow what I'm saying, and all
that stuff, man, yeah, that wasstill some good times times.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
So I would say the crew that I ended up meeting.
We ended up forming a rap crew,a hip-hop crew.
Okay, soul Sides.
Okay, that was DJ Shadow.
Blackalicious Lyrics Born.
We had a guy named Benj thatwas down with the crew.
He unfortunately passed away.
A few years later.
Gab moved up from Pacoima tojoin Chief Excel.
That was Blackalicious.

(10:05):
Years later, gab moved up frompacoima to join chief excel.
That was blackalicious.
A year after we started soulsides, latif the truth speaker
came, came and was part of partof uc davis.
So he joined our crew and wewould congregate around my radio
show and you know they wouldfreestyle and we started
pressing.
We you know jeff shadow wasdoing mixes for funk and klein
at the time yeah, basic daveyeah, and you know I was writing

(10:28):
for the bomb hip-hop magazineand we were going to the gavin
convention.
It was like really starting tolike feel like I was a part of
something also want to shout outbenny b.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yes, that's my.
You know, I've told that guyforever.
But man, that was my guy.
I miss that guy forever.
Man, that was my guy.
I miss that guy so much.
Yeah, you should reach out tohim I will.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
I haven't talked to him in years, but Benny was
instrumental in creating thisthing called the Bay Area Hip
Hop Coalition, yep, and what hedid was he took all the radio.
You know, like I said, everycollege radio station had at
least one hip hop show.
I'm sorry, I'm like I've beentalking all day, my voice is
going, it's all right.
And Benny, he's like we shouldall form basically a coalition

(11:10):
where we all report the samerecords and we chart
individually, but we chart thesame records.
And what he was trying to do isbasically leverage all the
disparate stations around theBay Area into one voting block.
So what it did was it meant youhave to bring your artists to
the Bay, you have to give dropsto all the stations, you have to

(11:30):
fuck with us, basically.
And for someone who had a newshow on the radio and was
getting drops from De La Souland Tribe and Leaders in the New
School, all my favorite groups,it was incredible, excuse me.
And then during GavinConvention, bay Area Hip Hop
Coalition would throw shows.

(11:51):
And you know, I remember oneshow we did at the
Longshoreman's Hall and it waslike Pete Rock and Seal, smooth
and Main Source and Naughty byNature and you know it was just
incredible.
And so you know, my experienceat college was really, really
about like the radio station andstarting this label and writing

(12:12):
for magazines and being a partof something bigger.
And it was through music andthrough hip hop specifically
that I felt like I belonged tosomething.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
So that's when you got immersed into the hip hop
culture fully.
Yeah, and it was.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
You know it was it was I don't.
You know how do I, how do Idescribe it?
It was like you know you, you,you, you come, you come to UC
Davis as a freshman.
You don't know anybody, andthen, a year later, you're part
of a crew, Like, crew, like.

(12:46):
It just felt good.
You know what I mean.
So and really, the writing tookoff because Jeff was encouraging
me to write Dave Paul, let mewrite for the Bomb Hip Hop
Magazine.
I did a couple of interviewsand I was like I fell in love
with it.
I was like, oh my God, this isincredible.
I get to interview my favoriteartists and talk about the
creative process.
Now, the early years was mereally pretending to be
something?
I wasn't right.

(13:06):
I was writing funny.
I was like adopting an accent,like you know, a hip-hop accent,
and it's just like within, likethe first time I saw I think it
was my first piece I saw and Iwas just like, oh, this isn't me
, you know.
It was really, really, reallyevident to me.
I felt embarrassed and I waslike, okay, let me, I can do
this, still be engaged and nothave to be inauthentic.

(13:30):
Yeah, you found your voice andif I started to find my voice
but realized it had to startfrom a place where I wasn't
pretending to be like a hip-hopkid, you know what I mean.
And so it was, um, it was cool,and and the hustle I had was I
was writing for magazines and,because of Jeff's encouragement,
I was writing for bigger andbigger magazines and more

(13:51):
magazines.
Because I was writing formagazines, I get advances of
albums three months in advanceand I played on my radio show,
whereas radio got their advancesmaybe a couple of weeks before
they'd get the single early, butthey wouldn't get the album
early.
And so I was like, you know, I,I wrote the bio for midnight

(14:14):
marauders, so yeah, and so I gotthe advance, like at the
beginning of summer, wow, and Ilistened to that album all
summer during my internship.
I had a one hour commute eachway and I did a couple of radio
shows that summer at Davis and Iplayed like album cuts that no
one had ever heard yet and itwas like, and it's like I was

(14:35):
like no one in New York is goingto hear this stuff.
So my, my, my listeners and Ihad a little you know, cool,
little loyal following on theair, but like like they got some
treats.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yeah, I mean, I remember those days of getting
records early and I'll leavethem unnamed because I don't
know if the staturations orlimitations went out.
I had a couple plugs at thesource and I would get stuff
early.
I remember and I lost all thatstuff in, but I had the Chronic
early.
Oh yeah, wow.
I remember going to thebarbershop in Harlem and

(15:09):
listening to the Chronic on myheadphones and letting people
skip me Like, no, you go ahead.
Because I was so enraptured bythe album.
I kept listening to it over andover.
I let three or four people skipthe line and jump in front of
me because I was locked in.
You know, those were good times.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah line to jump in front of me because I was locked
in.
You know those were good times.
Yeah, man, I had ilmatic early.
Wow, I had a.
I had a dub of ilmatic fromwhat was the publicist name at
sony at the time?
I think his name was miguelmiguel yeah, miguel gave me an
advance of ilmatic.
I forget who I reviewed it for,or I interviewed naz for
somebody, and I remember we madea trip to la in 94, early 94,

(15:46):
and listen to that.
That's the only record welistened to on a seven hour
drive over and over again.
It was incredible Cause you know, at the time everyone was like
you'll Maddie, go Maddie.
You know it was such a highlyanticipated album and it
delivered really.
Yeah, it's an album that metthe hype and I remember we
listened to that let's listen tothat like 10 times on the drive
down.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
I had Faith on the show last week, so I'll let her
know that's cool.
So tell me about the move fromthe Bay to New York.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
So after I got out of college as a child of immigrant
parents, they could not wraptheir head around the idea that
I was going to be working at arecord label where I wasn't
making any money.
Yeah, they're going to be.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
You're poor, you're going to be in the streets.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, and really they just didn't have the way to
grasp that and honestly, theywere right, Right, they were
correct.
I got left soul sides reallygot kicked out because I was
just really torn between, like,my obligations there and my
obligations to my career as myparents idea of a career, and I

(16:54):
just dropped the ball on on thebunch of stuff and and they were
just like listen, it can't belike this and so you have to
choose.
And I was like I can't stay atthis label, like I can't do it.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
And so.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
I took a job in Silicon Valley.
I worked for Elon Musk actuallyReally For a year.
Did you meet him back then?
Yeah, we used to have weeklymeetings with him.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
He had a company called Zip.
Wow, how was he back then?

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Oh, like, like uh, like a mute, like it was his.
So we, we, I work a little morespecifically.
I worked for a pr company thathad their only client was this
company called zip2 andspecifically we repped kimball
and elon musk.
Kimball is his brother, who'sthe ceo, and elon was like the

(17:41):
genius tech child, cto of thecompany and zip2ip2 did maps
like Google Maps, but beforeGoogle Maps, and he would not
speak in the room.
He was weird, weird, weird, butdidn't speak.
Really he was like he wasn'tthe face of the company and it
just was like it's a funnylittle trivial footnote in my
story, but I had this job atthis Silicon Valley PR company

(18:01):
and it was awful, I hated it andI was writing for magazines and
, like you know, by that time Iwas writing for, I think, the
source and double x or double xlwasn't born yet.
It was like the source and vibeand rap pages and herb magazine,
as well as like the regionalzines flavor and bomb and one
nut, and like I was writing forstraight no chaser in the uk and

(18:24):
, like you know, it was likeincredible to like get records
for free, write about music andsee it my name in print, right,
yeah, yeah, but there's no moneyin that.
And so eventually, a few yearslater, I ended up uh, one of one
of the writers, one of myeditors at ray gun magazine left
to start, went to work for aninternet startup right, this is

(18:46):
the first dot com bubble, okay,99.
Company was called CD.
Now, and he says I want you tobe my hip hop editor at CD.
Now, we're based in New York,I'm going to pay you something
like $75,000 a year and you'removing.
It was great, it was great backthen.
And you're moving expenses.
And I was year, and you'removing, great, great back then.

(19:08):
And you're moving expenses andI was like, okay, I'm moving to
new york.
And you know the thing is is, bythat time I was flying to new
york quite often for stories.
Right, my first time in newyork as an adult is 90s.
I think this might have beenwhen we first met.
I got flown out to interviewtribe off the beats, rhymes and
life record.
Okay, I've never been to newyork before as an adult.
I'm terrified because I'm justlike I don't know how to

(19:31):
navigate this city.
Theola borden, I got put up atthe radisson empire hotel.
Wow, theola borden was likeI'll show you around town.
I'm like cool, I don't.
I've never ridden the subwaybefore.
I don't know how to ride thesubway.
She's like I'll come get you.
Wow, she comes, gets me up atlike 72nd and broadway yep, yeah

(19:52):
, and then shows me how to usethe train.
We go to the west village.
It's like august and we justwalk around and I as hundreds of
people on the street and it waslike I think we must have spent
like ten dollars like on foodand beverages and just walked
around for four hours.
I thought was the greatest cityin the world.
And yeah, I remember tribe cameto my hotel because the old is

(20:14):
like I'm not sending you anymore, I'm just gonna have them come
to your hotel, you and we sat.
They came to the front desk andasked for me and the people who
worked at the hotel were buggingout that Q-Tip was asking for
me.
And we sat in the park acrossfrom the hotel.
Yep, the park, yep, and just, Idid my interview there with Ali
Shahid and Tip.
Wow, I still have the tape.

(20:35):
I still have the transcripts.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
I just dug it out because you know we're working
on this J Dilla documentary andthat's the first interview where
tip mentions dilla to me.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, because he worked on the beats.
Yeah, he mentioned the uma,yeah, you know, and he and I was
asking him but what is the uma?
And you know, I still I wasunder the impression that,
alishah, he did beats.
Yeah, no one really clarifieddifferently, so it was pretty
funny yeah, that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
That's amazing.
So how did you get?
Well, how tell me how you gotto mtv from that?

Speaker 2 (21:07):
so I was firstcom bubble.
I'm working at cd now.
Then uh russell launched his uh360hiphopcom.
I remember that it was calledrs1w initially and um selwyn
hines and sheena lester, whowere previous editors of mine at
the Source and Rap Pages,recruited me to work with them

(21:28):
over there as the hip-hop editor, as the culture editor, and it
was like a murderer's row ofjournalists, right, it was like
Sheena Lester, selwyn Hines,chris X, andrea Duncan-Mau,
myself, serena Kim, johnCaramonicaff, chang dave
tompkins all in one spot, likeall in one spot and it was like

(21:53):
and I did that through 2000,that, and then the bubble burst,
and then I was, went back tofreelancing and then by 2003 you
know, freelancing after 9-11like freelancing budgets went
south.
yeah, and you know what I usedto get paid like a dollar or two
dollars a word for a prettymid-sized magazine was now
paying like 50 cents a word.

(22:14):
Wow, and that's not enough topay rent in new york.
So I took a job at mtv as afreelancer for a two-week stint.
I think I was filling inminya's minya o's old job.
She was a producer there.
I came in as a writer.
Two week stint turned into atwo month stint, turned into a
permalance job.
Um, I was pretty humble becauseI had gone into debt, like while

(22:37):
I was freelancing, and I hadn'tworked at any place.
And so I came into MTVpromising myself I would not try
to be the smartest person inthe room, I would not try to
pretend that I had the bettertaste than everyone that worked
there.
I would just submit myself tothe job until I figured out how

(22:57):
it worked and then figure out itwas just a different strategy,
right, yeah, and so I, for thefirst six months I worked at MTV
.
As a writer, I did everythingthey asked me to do, like
Diddy's releasing a perfume orcologne at Macy's.
You got to cover the red carpetand interview teenagers.
I'm like cool.
Right, like you know, britneySpears is, you know, doing some

(23:20):
publicity stunt in Times Square.
Go cover it.
I'm like cool.
Cool.
And you know, I, I was, Ibasically did it because I was
like you know, I need a job, Ineed bread.
Yeah, you need a bread.
I need a bread, but also Ineeded a career path.
I needed someplace where Icould grow.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
And and have something to aim for, to reach
for and get it.
And then keep doing that.
Because, freelancing, Irealized there's no mentors,
there's no obstacles in front ofyou.
You know how many relationshipsthat I ruined with significant

(24:00):
others because, you know, whenyou freelance, like it doesn't
matter if it's a weekend or not,right, it's like doesn't matter
what time it is now what timeit is.
And so, you know, I was reallywas like looking for a shot.
I'm glad I did it.
I, I think six months in, Irealized that I didn't love
writing, but I lovedstorytelling and I was working
as a writer at MTV News.
I was working a lot withproducers there.

(24:21):
And so, six months in, I'm like, wait a minute, I pitch the
story, do the interviews, Iwrite the script, but someone
else is shooting it and theirname is on the piece, when it
was really your work.
And I'm like, okay.
So I said, what's thedifference?
What producing is?
You're directing the camerasand and you're shooting.
Sometimes I'm like, well, Iwant to do that and so, sorry, I

(24:46):
got noisy neighbors.
Can you hear that?

Speaker 1 (24:48):
oh, yeah yeah, yeah, I thought it was thunder
actually.
No, let's give it one second.
I don't like my neighbors newyork living so I pitched this
story on the roots.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
They were recording their new album in Philly and
this is the piece where Ibasically pitched the story.
I interviewed everybody in thegroup, we shot a bunch of stuff,
I did the script, I went intothe edit and someone else's name
was on it and I was like thisisn't right.
I want to produce.
And my boss actually, he's likewell, writers don't become
producers.
And I said, well, why not?

(25:17):
And he's like yeah, I don'tknow actually, why not.
He's like and and my boss atthe time, ocean mcadams, he
changed my life.
He gave me a shot to produce.
He's like all right, produce,find a senior producer who can
be your training wheels.
He's like but I guess you know,if you know how to structure a
story, his thinking was, if he,if I knew how to structure a

(25:40):
story, it would be easier toteach me how to use a camera
than it is someone who knows howto use a camera, how to write a
story, story exactly.
And I just was like and I youknow he was right like yeah I
was able to to.
My first piece was on a brooklynmarching band high school
marching band called thebrooklyn steppers wow, and it
was about the band leader, theteacher.

(26:00):
He had this band doing hip hopcover songs which they loved.
They loved doing Jay-Z andBiggie songs and in order to
remain in the band which thekids loved you had to do your
homework and have a certain GPA.
But basically what they did wasthey took these kids in as soon
as the final bell rang.
They did three hours ofhomework, mentorship, tutoring

(26:22):
and then band practice for twohours and it was churning out
kids graduating with good gradesand they got to play in the
band and they got out of thestreet, exactly, exactly and so
that was my first piece and iteveryone loved it and it did
well and they okay, we'll doanother one.
And it was just like it wentfrom there.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
So tell me how that?
Well, let me just mention, forthose of you who might not know,
that era of working in MTV thatyou worked in was so dynamic, I
guess is the word I'm lookingfor.
There was so much happening.
The hip-hop was blowing up,like really blowing up, you know
, becoming pop, actually kind ofcrossing over, and you had the
pop acts too, like, say, likebritney and in sync, and blah,

(27:03):
blah, blah, and they wereselling 10, 50 million albums
and mtv awards.
Mtv awards were huge and, likemtv was literally the.
They were the epicenter of, ofpop culture, like for real, like
yeah bands from england likeoasis, and then, like you had to
do mtv america to really crackit.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
You know crack it and mtv news.
We had kurt loder, sujin bach,giddy niego, john norris, swank
halloway who I produced for manyyears shaheem reed, the 1515
boys, ramon dukes yeah, laterjason rodriguez, like it was a.
It was a really fun place to beand, you know, news sort of
stayed out of the mix of most ofthat stuff.

(27:42):
We mostly operatedindependently but, like you know
, you'd go, you'd go out forlunch in in times square, you'd
come back and you'd go up to the29th floor and you'd be in the
elevator with, like gwynethpaltrow and Snoop Dogg and, like
you know, or like you know,you'd hop in the elevator and
it's like you know, um, oh,there's Mos Def and there's, you

(28:03):
know, justin Timberlake andit's just like whatever you know
it's just like weird stuff likethat and it was just such a
surreal place to be.
But I really, I really loved itbecause MTV became my grad
school.
Six months after I produced myfirst piece, I did five pieces
on Houston hip hop for hip hop.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
I want to get to that .
I want to get to that.

Speaker 2 (28:24):
And it became my block.
Yes so six months after I I domy first piece, I'm directing my
first show.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
So tell us.
I know what my block was.
It was actually one of myfavorite shows ever.
I guess they don't even havethem.
You was actually one of myfavorite shows ever.
I guess they don't even havethem.
You can't even look at them, nomore, right.
They're not even on TV.
But tell us what my Block wasand how it developed.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
So I think my Block was a half-hour documentary show
on hip-hop and it focused on.
Each episode was on one city orone region which had never been
done before.
That point and part of that isbecause my love of like
underground hip hop, I knew thatthere were scenes in all these
little cities.
But Houston was about to blowup.

(29:06):
Right, I had all these likemixtapes.
I was a DJ Screw fan, I was aSwish, a House fan.
I heard this song still tipping,didn't think anything of it
because this was when ChameleonAir was still on it, and then I
hear this new version with PaulWall on it and I'm like, oh,
this song is popping right.
It was on all the mixtapescoming out of Houston at the

(29:27):
time.
Then I went home to visit myfolks in the Bay and I heard two
people bumping it and I waslike wait a minute, if it's
being played here, it's about tobe like big.
I think KML was playing it.
I was like, okay, so I pitchedthis Houston story, mike Jones
was big.
And then it's just like we didthese series of stories.
We did Mike Jones, paul Walk,chameleon Air, slim Thug, we did

(29:51):
a whole thing on Slabs and Irealized, like even right off
that first episode, it was likeit's not just about the music,
it's about the city and theculture that gives birth to the
music.
And when you watch multipleepisodes our second episode was
Memphis, you know, and we got togo around with Three, six Mafia

(30:13):
.
And so it's a dream for mebecause I'm directing which I
don't know what I'm doing, butI'm directing for television
stories about hip-hop,underground hip-hop that is now
starting to become big right,and with each subsequent episode
I'm like feeling more confident.
By the time we hit atlanta in2000 I think it was 2006 I'm
like let's do a great day inatlanta, let's get every atlanta

(30:36):
hip-hop artist on a stoop andlet's shoot a great day in
Atlanta.
Let's get every Atlanta hip hopartist on a stoop and let's
shoot a photograph.
And it happened, yeah, and itwas like you know shout out
Whitney Gilbenta, who you knowput in just insane amounts of
work to make that happen.
But it's like I had this ideathat let's recreate this photo
and a hundred artists fromAtlanta show up on a chilly

(30:57):
December morning to like do thisphoto.
And so I love that experienceof my block To this day.
You know, people still rememberthat show, like old heads
remember that show.
I'm really proud of that.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, I mean for me working at a label where most of
our artists weren't from newyork, even though the label's
new york based.
I got to, I got the fortunatechance to go to, obviously, all
these cities.
Like I said, I went to the bay,I went to houston because it's
uk.
I was in new orleans withmystical, I was in our chicago
with our bottom line, so I wasseeing all these different
pockets of culture and so whenyou guys put it on tv, it was

(31:38):
like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,that's how they do it in Houston
, or that's how the cars look inthe Bay.
You know, it was almost likeconfirmation for me.
It's like I told y'all.
It's very different when youleave New York.
How hip hop is, you know,growing?
It's not all New York based.
Everybody is just not enamoredover.
You know, growing it's not allNew York based.
Everybody is everybody's justnot enamored over.

(32:00):
You know what's happening here?
It is pockets of differentculture and you guys put it on
TV.
I was very, very excited aboutthat.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
It was cool Cause for a lot of people, hip, the real
hip hop culture wasn't shownthat way.
Right, and we, and and to someextent we got to when you shoot,
my neighbors are cleaning theirapartment right now.
Man, I'm really sorry and we'llbe right back.

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Speaker 2 (32:57):
But you know, what was interesting is like the
artists that we featured were soproud to show off their city,
yeah, and, and we weren't afraidto go anywhere.
Like we.
We were like take this to yourhood, yeah, like where you're
from, your actual block, yeah,and I think, because we treated
them with respect and allowedthem to be the voice, as opposed

(33:18):
to like what Vice did yearslater, where it felt like a
bunch of dudes on safariTerrible.
It was like we allowed theartists and Sway is the perfect
host for stuff like this, rightwhen we allow the artists to
really tell us where they'refrom, to show us where they're
from and really focus on thecultural aspects, not the
glorified aspects.

(33:40):
And that experience, I think, isI didn't know what I was doing
as a director or makingtelevision.
I learned as I went, you know,because I really basically got
thrown into the deep end of thepool and it's like all right,
you're directing a two camerashoot with the host and you know
you're trying to get all thesestories.
I think in my first show,houston, we shot 40 hours wow

(34:01):
footage for what ultimatelywould be a 21 minute television
show.
Wow, with commercials, right.
And it's like I was like wait,maybe I don't have to shoot that
much, maybe if I actuallyprepare a little bit better, I
don't have to shoot, sorry,right, you know because then
you're just in the edit for likemonths and you're like what are
we yeah?
but that.
But the problem is is that whenwe got to chicago and I wasn't

(34:27):
prepared for this when we gotwhen we got to chicago, people
knew we were in town and so whenI checked into my hotel, there
was this guy waiting for me inthe lobby okay, with his, with
his tape, and he was part of astreet gang rap group crew,
something.
And I, you know, politely tookhis tape.

(34:49):
I did.
He was looking for joseph pateland I said, oh, he's not here
yet.
I'm like, but I'll take thisand I'll give it to him.
Yeah, I got you, I got you andthen he left and then I didn't
do anything with it because Iknew we only had 21 minutes.
We had to, like, focus on whatwe were going to shoot.
And we ended up getting held upa week later by the same dudes.
Wow, they crashed one of ourshoots in Hyde Park to a sneaker

(35:12):
shop.
Someone must have told them wewere going to be there.
They showed.
Must have told them we weregoing to be there.
They showed up.
This dude walks through theframe I'm interviewing do or die
.
This guy walks through theframe, uh and and uh and flashes
his gun at me.
And then two other dudes comeand they take the cameras and
I'm like and whitney god blessher, whitney is there and she's

(35:32):
like she's she.
She dresses him down like likeshe's somebody's mother, right,
like she's, like she's likedidn't your mothers teach you
better?
What are you doing?
Like.
But they were like we just wanthim.
And they're pointing at me,they want, they want to take me
somewhere.
And I was like listen, they'relike you can have the cameras
back, but we want to take himsomewhere.
I'm like take the cameras.
Like I don't, I don't care.
Wow, they're not my cameras.

(35:56):
And then I threw the theconversation and really this is
Whitney's doing.
She's like let's figure outwhat they want.
So she asked them.
It turns out all I want to bewas in the show.
So I'm like okay.
So I say listen, we're going toshoot this Throw to commercial
featuring you guys.
I said that's all I can do.
There's no room in the show foranything else.

(36:17):
I featuring you guys.
I said that's all I can do.
There's no room in the show foranything else.
I said but we'll do this thing.
It'll be quick.
You guys all line up here.
Sway's going to go down theline, he's going to introduce
you guys, he's going to dap youall up and we're going to shoot
it and it's got to be under 30seconds.
They're like fine, so we shootit.
I'm never going to use it.
But I realized this is all theywanted was just to be shot.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yeah, that's funny, because I was going to ask you
to tell me a crazy my Blockstory, but you beat me to the
point.
Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2 (36:45):
So what happens is they give us back the cameras.
I tell them my crew and my crewis funny, right, it's me, it's
Sway, it's Whitney, it's Shaheem, it's our two camera guys who
are like punk rockers, one ofwhom is like painfully good
looking, the other one has ablue mohawk, like it's like it's
a funny ass crew.
So I tell them, I tell the crew, I said we're gonna, we're

(37:05):
gonna shoot this.
That's all they want.
So let's just do it and let'streat it with respect, let's
just do it for real.
I did three takes.
No, no, no, you can't do itlike that.
You gotta, you gotta do it likethis.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
And made sure I was like they knew I was invested
right yeah, yeah, yeah that'sall they wanted.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
We did three takes and then they left and it was
like you know, but chicago wascrazy because, like chicago was
crazy because sometimes, when wewould wait, we would meet an
artist at a corner in their hoodand sometimes we would show up
early you can't wait in your carin Chicago.
And Sway is usually the buffer.

(37:44):
He's like the guy that'll belike no, you know Sway.
And everyone's like, oh, sway,they don't, they didn't give a
shit.
They were like.
They were like keep it moving.
And Sway's like, no, no, fam,we're going to be.
And they're like don't care,keep it moving.
And we're like, okay, so we'redriving around.
And the other crazy one wasMemphis Juicy J same thing.

(38:06):
He's like we don't stayanywhere for more than 10
minutes.
And he says this in the back ofhis Bentley.
He says a sitting duck alwaysgets plucked.
And so I'm like cool, thisSitting duck always gets plucked
.
And so I'm like cool, this ismy second episode ever, right?
I'm like, all right, fine,don't know what he's talking
about.
We have Juicy J and Paul.
Take us to their first house.
They lived in together whenthey formed Three, six Mafia and

(38:30):
they said he's like we're notgoing to be sitting ducks.
We're there for 10 minutes andthen a couple of people come by.
They're like oh, juicy, paul,what up?
10 more minutes.
It's like 20 people.
I'm like, oh, we got to get outof here.
And he's like, yeah, by thetime we leave, we've only been
there 30 minutes.
There's 150 people at the houseall trying to be on camera.

(38:52):
Juicy looks at me.
He's like I told you.
I'm like okay, and so like weall rush into the cars trying to
leave, everyone wants us toshoot them freestyling.
And it's just like, yeah, itwas pretty funny.

Speaker 1 (39:06):
Wow.
So tell me about what did youdo after when you left MTV.
What did you do?

Speaker 2 (39:13):
I left MTV after the inauguration.
Okay, I was the lead producerfor the 2008 election coverage,
which was like a dream of mine.
Okay, yeah, you know, obama wasmy guy and he wins the election
.
We interviewed him two daysbefore the election in Henderson
, nevada, and, like I don't know, I just my thing was always

(39:36):
like stay.
I got hit up by vice a couple ofyears earlier and they wanted
me to come there because theywere starting their video
channel and I didn't want toleave because I was still
learning shit at MTV.
I did live TV, live producing,producing bigger things.
You know, the election was likethe biggest thing I did there
and I realized after theinauguration I'd done everything

(39:57):
I'd set out to do there.
I came in as a writer fiveyears earlier, got out of debt.
Got out of debt.
I actually got hired by MTV asa staff position, which they
don't really do very often, butI accelerated through the ranks
pretty quickly there, mainlybecause I was older.
I was about three to five yearsolder than everybody else, so

(40:18):
it was sort of like I was matureenough to appreciate the
opportunity.
I got you, I got you and so Irealized after the inauguration
I wasn't going to learn anythingmore there and I didn't want to
be a lifer because I'd seen thelifers and I didn't want to be
a lifer.
Yeah, so I took a job at viceand I didn't I actually didn't

(40:41):
do music at all.
Advice, they wanted me to bringthem to television, and so I
spent the next three yearstraveling around the world doing
vice things.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
You know, shooting in favelas in Brazil and asking
the local warlord for permission.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah, tell me one crazy vice story.

Speaker 2 (41:01):
We went to Yemen in 2010.
Me, shane Smith, spike Jonesand our camera guy, matt.
And this is when America isfighting the war on terror.
The Yemeni government isbasically hustling the US for
money, saying there's al-Qaedain Yemen, so give us money to
fight them.
And there isn't and they'rehaving their own problems with

(41:24):
this group called the Houthis,the Houthi rebels, and it's a
sort of corrupt government andso you know, anybody who speaks
out against the government theymurder, right.
And so we went to Yemen to do astory about how, basically, the
war on terror was a farce, andwe interviewed these people who
basically had spoken out orspeaking out against the

(41:45):
government, because thegovernment was like disappearing
doctors and stuff, and it was.
You know, we said we'll bluryour faces out when we put this
on TV, because if the governmentsees your face you're going to
die.
We also decided to do a storyon some skate kids, because
there was like skate culturehappening in Yemen.
Like these teenagers, rich kids, like they bought skateboards

(42:08):
and and and all the old peoplein in sanaa, the capital,
thought the kids doingskateboard tricks was like magic
, like mystical shit, likespirits and shit, wow.
And so it was a really coolstory.
We were gonna go to the northof yemen to interview some
soldiers and and then our fixeron the ground said don't do that

(42:31):
.
And we're like why he's like?
Because I think there's goingto be a battle there tomorrow.
On the way.
You won't be safe and I waslike, okay, that's never stopped
us before, but he was like meand I have Spike Jones in my
crew.
I'm not trying to get himkilled, right?
Well, we entered the country asstudents.

(42:52):
We didn't say we werejournalists, because if you say
you're a journalist, they'regoing to put a government person
on you.
We said we were film students,so we decided not to go up north
.
We went to this island namedSaqqotra instead.
Saqqotra is an island off thecoast of Yemen which has the
most indigenous plant in animallife, second to the Galapagos

(43:13):
Beautiful island, and it's WorldCup season.
So we land in Socotra.
There's one town on the islandand we're watching the World Cup
in this square with everybodyelse.
That's being projected off theinternet.
It was incredible.
We spent two days in Socotragorgeous, goofing around,
swimming in the ocean, talkingto locals, and we then fly back

(43:34):
to the mainland.
On the way back in, we getdetained by national security.
They know we're not students.
They know we're journalists.
They know that someone rattedus out.
Basically, you like to saysomebody was watching.
I think it was one of the kids,the skate kids.
I think he went home braggingabout being interviewed by this
TV channel and his father islike in the security apparatus,

(43:57):
and so they basically detainedus coming into the country.
Never been so scared in my life.
They detained not only us, butthey took our our footage and we
were like shit.
So I actually get releasedfirst because and it's scary,
like in a different country whenyou're like being detained by
national security and you getcaught lying I get released

(44:17):
first because, because of mycomplexion and because I'm
dressed in the local clothing,which is the first thing you do
in any country that we werevisiting, they thought I was a
local so they let me go.
So then then we had a wholecontingency plan in place.
I ended up calling ouremergency contact, who I think
was a CIA agent, even though henever admitted it.
He was a friend of TomFreston's, and Tom said if you

(44:39):
ever get in trouble, call thisguy.
So we're in trouble.
I call this guy, he grabs me,he brings some cash.
Four hours later he gets Matt,shane and Spike released and he
says you have to leave thecountry right away.
So we said well, we can't.
We have this footage that theyhave and it's going to get those
people killed.
So he says come back tomorrowmorning.

(45:00):
So we go back tomorrow.
The next morning he handsanother wad of cash to somebody.
We get the camera back, we getthe tapes back, we download the
tapes onto a drive, we erase thetapes that were there, we put
everything back, so no one's thewiser.
And then we get escorted to theairport to get on a plane to
leave the country and we'rehiding in a utility closet at

(45:24):
the airport.
This guy arranged everythingwe're like, with the workers in
the utility closet and waitinguntil the plane is ready to take
off, and they escorted us tothe tarmac, up into the plane,
into the seats, like everyone'spaid off along the way, and then
we leave the country and it waslike, yeah.
I was like, oh, I'm going todie here.

(45:46):
Wow, that was the craziestthing.
They ever had me.
Advice, that's a good one, yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Jeez, dang buddy, you made it, hey.
So let's fast forward to youdoing these award-winning
documentaries.
So the first one is Summer ofSoul.
Is that the first one?

Speaker 2 (46:04):
Yeah, so Summer of Soul started working on in 2019.
Yep 2018, really, but really wegot started in 2019.
Okay, I was uh, previously atvivo, has had a content over
there, hated it was looking toget back into tv and film.
Hit up my old mtv boss, thisguy, dave seronic, said I'm
itching to get back into tv andfilm.

(46:25):
I'll do do anything.
I'll do any work you have.
He's like well, we have thisidea, we need to do a deck, a
treatment.
He's like it was a lot of workbut for not a lot of money.
But I said I'll do it.
So I took this half-page pitchand wrote a 30-page treatment
and blew their minds away.
I hired my own researcher.
I just really thugged it outand my strategy was if I blow

(46:53):
their mind, we'll get anotheropportunity.
They loved it.
And the next thing I know Davecalls me in the office.
He's like hey, do you know whoQuestlove is?
And I'm like, yeah, he's likewe just hired him to direct his
first documentary feature film.
He needs a producer whobasically can help him put this
together.
Would you be interested?
And that's how summer of soulcame which is what you said.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
So I lived in harlem for at least 30 years, you know
pretty much, and I had neverheard of this yeah, I'd never
heard it.
And after one of the guys inthe doc became a good friend of
mine, musa, musa, yeah, yeah,and but I got, you know, I just
had never, I didn't knowanything about.
It was just a fascinating.
It's a fascinating story andthat the footage is incredible

(47:35):
because you know it's mountmorris park.
It's like it's still there.
It's like, oh shit, like that,that happened, like right, there
was it.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
It was incredible, yeah you know, what was funny is
, when we were making that film,we had to find people, who, who
went yeah, and we?
The first thing we did was youknow, we had facebook and
twitter and everything.
We didn't get anything back.
And we realized, oh, you knowwhat, like this is a generation
of harlem that's not on thesocials?
right so we, um, we printed up aflyer that said you, you know,

(48:08):
do you know about, do you have arelative who talked about
seeing Nina Simone in the parkand you never believe her Right
Like.
So you know, your uncle swearshe saw Stevie in the park for
free.
Yeah.
We would drop that off at socialclubs, at churches, at record
stores, you know, communitycenters.
And we started gettingresponses back and that's how we
found people.

(48:29):
Ashley benbery, kentuck is our,was our associate producer.
She went, you know, she somefolks at like a ballroom dancing
class, like you know, like weput in like boots on the ground
work yeah, yeah, yeah findpeople who went to that festival
, musa.
Finding musa was the mostincredible story in the world
because, yeah, you know ashley'slike, oh, I found this guy
world, because you know Ashley'slike oh, I found this guy

(48:49):
Moussa.
Everyone says you know thathe's the mayor of Harlem, right,
and he knows everybody.
And we're like cool, you know.
He says he was at the festivalas a four-year-old or
five-year-old.
I'm like okay, well, what canhe remember?
And she did the pre-interviewwith him and he, you know, again

(49:13):
, no one's seen the footage.
The footage would just had notbeen broadcast.
Some of it had been broadcastthe week it happened, but the
week after one weekend gotbroadcast but, like, the rest of
it never got broadcast since wehad gotten these new photos
from the new york times that hadnever been published, that
showed vendors around the parkand Moose in his pre-interview
talked about he knew exactlyFifth Dimension was the group

(49:34):
that he remembered.
He remembers going with hismother's boyfriend.
He remembers balloons beinggiven out to kids in the park,
which we have on camera.
He remembers what they werewearing.
He says they were wearingorange, like the Creamsicles and
that's exactly what they'rewearing.
Yeah, he talked about vendorsaround the park and chicken
within the foil and he juststarted naming detail after

(49:56):
detail and I was like there isno way he would know this unless
it's legitimately what heremembers.
Yeah, so we do the wholeinterview with him and then we
show him the footage he startedcrying, that's what bookends the
right is him seeing it and thenresponding to it with tears
Because he realized this memoryhe's been holding for 50 years

(50:16):
is real.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Yeah, and so many people probably never, like you
said, didn't believe him.
Didn't believe him whatever.
And he's like no, bro, I'mtelling you it happened.
So like I'm going to ask maybea silly question, but I've never
met anybody else that won anOscar but you.
How does it feel to win anOscar, bro?

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Yeah, man, you know, never in my wildest dreams did I
think that was going to happen.
We never aimed for it, we neverthought it was possible, we
never talked about it.
And then, you know, we justwant to make a movie that we
loved and that we thought ourfriends would love and our
parents would love.
And we did.
And then we bring it toSundance.
I remember getting the callit's going to Sundance.

(50:53):
I'm like, oh my God, it's thegreatest day of my life.
A movie I made is going toSundance Film Festival.
Then it's virtual that year.
Then we screen it, people loveit.
Then we win the Sundance, notonly the audience award but the
grand jury prize.
I'm like this is the best it'llever get.
And then three days later,there's a bidding war between

(51:14):
Barack Obama's productioncompany and Netflix on one side,
and Hulu and Searchlight on theother.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
What the hell is going on.

Speaker 2 (51:24):
And then we partner with Hulu and Disney and Onyx
Collective and Searchlight.
They're like we're going to putit out in theaters.
It's going to be on Hulu.
I'm like this is the greatestthing in the world.
This is the greatest feeling inthe world.
Movie comes out, people love it.
I'm waiting for the bad reviews.
There's no bad reviews, likepeople you know it's still got

(51:46):
like a 99 on rotten tomatoes orsomething amazing.
There's no flaws five ways we'llsay no, I mean, it's crazy.
I realize and I say this withall humility, like we, because
it came from a genuine place.
I think it's one of the bestmusic documentaries ever made
right, because I think it's astory, for it hits on so many

(52:07):
different levels and it's a.
It's a story about blackhistory and how black history is
american history.
It's also a story about memoryand the things that we remember
and the things that we cherishand like who gets to determine
what's remembered and what's not?
right, it's different levels andnone of it was accidental, it
was very, all of it was veryintentional.
It just it, just it just keptgetting better to get nominated

(52:30):
for an oscar.
I cried.
My mom was up at like five inthe morning her time and like
watching and it just validatedso many.
You know my parents, who didn'twant me to do what I was doing,
I didn't understand it.
Suddenly, you're very proud.
Right, that came full circle.
Really, getting to experiencethe whole thing with the mirror
was incredible because, like youknow, working with your musical

(52:52):
hero is like, and then the, sothe Oscars themselves, and then
what happened at the Oscars isinsane.
Right, we were, we were there.
The Will Smith, that was ourcategory.
That was Chris Rock presentingus the Oscar, and then you know
and then the next day I I hearChris Rock presenting us the
Oscar.
And then the next day I hearChris Rock say something
disparaging where he's like youknow, the winner is Summer of

(53:14):
Soul, amir Questlove, thompsonand four white guys Right, which
is like just such a shittything to say when, like, only a
dozen people had ever won Oscars, south Asian people had ever
won Oscars before.
And he knew better.
He knew better.
Yeah, he said the same joke onstage, at stage at the root show
, two nights earlier.
I I in hindsight, I cut him alittle slack now because he

(53:35):
probably was traumatized in themoment, didn't know what to do.
But also fuck him yeah, um butin.
But you know, and the oscarprofessionally changes your life
, but real talk, it's.
It's great to be, it's greatthat it's happened.
I feel like I don't have toexplain myself now when I want a
meeting or in the roomsomewhere.
Yeah, um, the powers that be,like I can get any meeting that

(53:59):
I need to.
That's a really great um cardto have.
But, honestly, my, the thingthat makes me proudest is that
we made a great movie.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Like, really, it's nice to havethe oscar, it's nice to be in
the history books, it's nice tonever have to explain my, my

(54:22):
ability to somebody ever again.
It frees me up to do the otherthings that I want to do.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
Where's?

Speaker 2 (54:27):
your trophy Right now .
It's downstairs on a shelf youknow where my?
Record player is I should havetold you to bring it on the show
.
I mean it used to be in theZoom shot because I wanted to
make sure no one ever got ittwisted in a pitch meeting.
But I moved recently, so I'mstill a little disorganized.
I moved recently, so I'm stilla little disorganized.

Speaker 1 (54:49):
Tell me how you got from that accolade to doing the
Sly Stone doc.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, so Sly.
Actually he's also amazing,thank you.
Sly got announced afterSundance, so before the Summer
of Soul even came out.
I read in Hollywood Reporterthat Amir has signed up to
direct a Sly and the FamilyStone documentary.
And I call him up, I'm like yo,congrats, do you want me to
work on this with you?
And he's like yeah, of course.
And I'm like, okay, cool, Ineed to be a part of the

(55:18):
conversation next time.
I am not a hired hand, I'm partof the announcement now.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (55:49):
And I didn't know what I was going to do after
Summer of Soul.
I didn Exactly movie comes outand it starts to the award
circuit.
You are expected to promote it.
You don't get paid to do thatthat.
I'm doing sly promotion now andit's taking away from the thing
I'm actually getting paid to do.
Yeah, so I spent a whole yearbefore we even started sly,
after it got announced, but thatwas really because amir wanted
to do it and I didn't know a lotabout sly um.
I just knew the music reallythrough hip-hop and what I heard
on the radio, but I didn't knowa lot about sly um.
I just knew the music reallythrough hip-hop and what I heard

(56:09):
on the radio, but I didn't knowthe story.
And so, you know, I spent thefirst few months really just
trying to get some fluency abouthis story together.
And then the way amir and Iwork is I ask him we have a
conversation, what kind of storydo you want to tell?
And he kept talking about notonly you know, so everyone knows
his ups and downs of sly'sstory.

(56:30):
But like he's like how do weapproach it with some empathy?
And and then it's really thebigger idea is that you know a
lot of these are a lot of blackartists in in america have a
unique burden and he's like, ifyou trace it back, it's probably
Sly is probably the firstartist to have this specific

(56:50):
unique burden.
Post-civil rights rocksuperstar who has to navigate
black audiences, white audiences, white critics, the record
label power structure.
He's like he has no template,he has no one to follow.
He's doing it for the firsttime.
How some of those same issuesthat he dealt with had

(57:11):
reverberated in a decade since.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yeah, I thought that was an interesting angle that
you guys took like the kind ofblack genius thing but him and
D'Angelo and Andre 3000 and likepeople who get even Q-Tip, you
know, people kind of get to thatlevel and Prince, you know,
maybe we can go on and onMichael, we could mention 40 of
them and like you get to thatheight and like how do you do it
?
Because it gets crazy, and likeyou're so removed from who you

(57:41):
were because you're so high upthe ladder.
Now it's kind of like he wasn't.
The guy from the radio DJ fromSan Francisco was like way in.
The guy from the radio dj fromsan francisco was like way in a
in the fucking rearview mirror.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
So, yeah, yeah, that was, it was a very and I was
happy that you guys had tapes ofhim being a radio dj, because I
still don't know how manypeople knew about that part of
it and how how influential hewas when he was doing that, you
know yeah, and it's funnybecause, you know, if you think
about it, he's on the radioplaying black and white music

(58:14):
together and in a way he's sortof like seeding his audience
that he would play to us for hisband a few years later when he,
when, when slime family stonecomes out.
There's a whole bunch of peoplewho are primed to hear that
kind of mix of styles becausethey listen to him on the radio.
And you know, I think, amir,you know we got D'Angelo and

(58:35):
Q-Tip and Shaka and Andre asproxies for Sly.
Yes, because we couldn't talkto Sly.
He's alive, but just not in aplace where you should put him
on camera.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Not healthy, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
And we wanted him to have his dignity right.
We don't want to.
We didn't want to like hang himout there like that.
Yeah, that's what the wholemovie is about.
It's like this man has given usso much.
Let's just let him live inpeace.
Right, yeah, but you knowD'Angelo facing the pressure on
the voodoo tour every night,having to be in perfect physical

(59:09):
condition every night so hecould take his shirt off and do
how Does it Feel to a room fullof screaming fans and how it got
harder and harder for him to dothat.
Andre, everyone wants him torap.
He saw what this did to otherpeople.
He says I don't want anythingto do with this, I'm off the
radar, don't think about me, I'mgoing to go play a flute in

(59:30):
japan.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
You just walk around you know what I?

Speaker 2 (59:32):
mean in tokyo has this line in the film where he's
like when you're black andyou're innovative, they may look
at you like you're odd, likecan you imagine, like you know
how many people call q-tip gayback in the day right, or if
you're just a little different.
they're like oh he's, he's gay,and that was like 20 years ago,
30 years ago, when thehomophobia was at an all-time

(59:52):
high.
Now it's just like oh, thisdude's weird, or you're alt-rap,
like that's the thing, I thinkthat Black artists have had to
deal with in this country thatother artists haven't had to.
I think women have their ownunique issues, even with Nina
Simone.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Now you look back at a lot of the things that she was
fighting for and talking about.
It makes fucking perfect sense.
Isn't that crazy.
You guys were trying to jerkher and she wanted to be
respected and paid for her work.
She wasn't a nut at all.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
And who's the other one for our generation is Lauren
right?
Lauren didn't participate inthe film, but when we were
making the film she had thatviral clip of her in LA where
she's like do you know how hardit is for me to get prepared
mentally to come on stage everynight and perform for you?
And people took it out ofcontext, but her whole rant is

(01:00:50):
actually the theme of our film.
It's like you think you know?
Like yeah, it's, it's, it's aninteresting thing.
And then also, post oscar zamirwas like feeling guilty about
being successful, that wholeidea that success, like be
careful, what you wish forsurvive as a remorse kind of
thing.
Here he is, he gets an oscarright out the gate, his first

(01:01:12):
documentary, and he's like are,is my band gonna treat me the
same?
I feel bad that tariq wasn't apart of this.
This guy I've been with on myjourney for 30 years.
Like you know, are people gonnabe like, oh, that's just a
mirror being a mirror.
You know what I mean.
Like yeah, you know, that'smean.
He ducked away after the Oscarsfor a few months because I
couldn't get a hold of him,because he was just trying to

(01:01:33):
reset.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Trying to deal with it yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
The thing that connects both films is that I
think what Amir and I are reallygood at is how do you tell a
very specific story thatactually resonates to a bigger
idea?

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
yeah, and, and I think both these films are that
so tell us, let's wrap it up,and tell me about the next
project you're working on.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I know, bob, but you, you break it down yeah, so we
um, I'm not working with Amir onEarth, wind and Fire, I didn't
work with him on SNL, um, but uh, we're doing a Jay Dilla
documentary.
We've been trying to put ittogether for three years.
I am directing that one.
Amir is executive producingthat one.
Okay, it's based on Dilla timeby Dan Charnas, our friend.

(01:02:19):
Yes, very thoroughly researchedbook, very.
We just started about two weeksago, hope to be done by this
time next year, which will bethe 20th anniversary of Dilla's
death.
Wow, it's been 20 years, wow.
And really it's about how andit's a, it's a passion project,
but it's like how, you know,it's about dilla and what he did
to music and also why wecelebrate him.

(01:02:42):
Yeah, more in death than inlife, and also it, and also it's
about time.
It's about the way Dillamanipulated time, but also about
the way artists, or the waypeople live their life when they
think they have all the time inthe world, and then what they
do when they realize they don'thave any time at all.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Yeah, the clock is, the sand is running out.

Speaker 2 (01:03:06):
I mean for me COVID was that right, I think.
During COVID I realized, oh,there's not a lot of time left.
Like you will not catch medoing anything, I don't want to
do anymore because time isvaluable, yeah, so being here
with you is because I wanted tobe here with you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
I appreciate it.
I wanted you on here.
I mean, you know, look at us,we got gray hair.
Now I know, but we're stillrocking you know, man yo?
I really appreciate this.
This is a great interview, bro.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
Yeah, thank you, man.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
I appreciate you asking I feel like we could talk
for five hours.
Honestly, I know we could, Iknow we could Listen.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
I will say this I never thought I'd be in a
position where people would wantto hear my story, and I'm
appreciative of it.
I'm appreciative of people wholearn lessons from it.
I spend a lot of my timepost-Oscars honestly mentoring
younger kids Not even youngerlike even people my age too.
I'm part of Sophia Chang'smentorship program.
I'm part of Joey Badass'mentorship program.

(01:04:06):
I meet young South Asianfilmmakers or creatives and they
ask for time.
I'll give them time because Ijust feel like I got blessed.
It's a result of a lot of hardwork, but if I can make that
path a little easier for otherpeople because no one taught me
about the industry, I had tofind out on my own if I can make

(01:04:28):
that path easier for somebodyelse.
So there's more time creatingand less time trying to figure
the bullshit out.
That's my purpose here on theplanet while I'm still here.

Speaker 1 (01:04:40):
That's what sparked me doing this podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Yeah, I think that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
People that I know and respect, that have had
success, but maybe even had topivot, you know, and kind of go
here to figure out the nextsteps and everything, and and
hopefully people listening willhear these stories and be like,
oh OK, and oh, that's, that'sthe guy who did the slide, doc.
You know, like that's, that'sthe whole point of this.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
So I can't wait till it flips around and someone gets
to interview you, because Iknow you got stories yeah, I got
some stories and actually onestory you told me has never left
me.
I remember you told me thestory of when you signed the
pack and and you and you wereyou.
You were like I'm the guy thatsigned tribe called quest, and
they're like who?

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
who?
Who are you talking about?

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
and I.
I will always remember thatstory because it taught me it
was one of the things thattaught me that something
Dreamhampton taught me a longtime ago Hip hop is.
Whatever little black and brownkids say, it is yes, they are
not tied to your history, theyare making their own.

Speaker 1 (01:05:46):
Making their own.
You can't fight it.
You can't be like yo, hot, likeI remember.
Um, we'll wrap it up.
I remember a couple months agopeople were on kai sanat because
he didn't know who big pun was.
Right, I'm like he's 22.
Yeah, you can't be mad at thatdude been dead about that long.
Sadly, like he might not know,he's just, he's a kid, he's a
child and what hip-hop is is forhim.

(01:06:07):
Is you know?
And Playboi Carti andwhatever's popping now.

Speaker 2 (01:06:10):
It's not.
Biggie it's not Biggie man.

Speaker 1 (01:06:13):
Yeah, no, and I can't be mad at him for not being
that for him and his generation.
Yeah, you know.
But yeah, man, thank you, Iappreciate it.
Joe, listen, man, thank you.
You can catch mixed andmastered on apple podcast,
spotify, iheart or wherever youget your podcast.
Hit that follow button, leave areview and tell a friend I'm

(01:06:34):
your host.
Jeffrey sledge.
Mixed and mastered is producedand distributed by merrick
studios.