Lisa Cambridge-Mitchell: Part 2

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In Part 2 of our conversation with Lisa Cambridge-Mitchell, we follow her journey from LaFace Records—where she went from publicity to marketing and helped launch Usher’s My Way—through the politics of Arista, HBO’s digital experiment, and Jive Records. She shares raw stories of industry clashes, the reality of being paid not to work during her most lucrative years, and the constant challenges of being a Black woman executive in a business built on loyalty and power plays. Along the way, Lisa gives us a front-row seat to artist development at its highest stakes, from guiding a teenage Chris Brown to shaping how international audiences experienced some of the biggest names in R&B.

Lisa also opens up about her transition into coaching and why mentorship alone won’t sustain the next generation of creatives. For her, true patronage—the intentional act of surrounding emerging talent with the support they need to succeed—is what built her own career and what’s missing in today’s music and media landscape. It’s a conversation that mixes career highs and industry politics with timeless lessons on leadership, resilience, and the future of creative communities.

This is Mixed and Mastered with Lisa Cambridge-Mitchell.

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Mixed and Mastered is produced and distributed by Merrick Studio, and hosted by music industry veteran, Jeffrey Sledge. Tune in to the discussion on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you catch your podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @MixedandMasteredPod to join the conversation and support the show at https://mixedandmasteredpod.buzzsprout.com/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Last week on Mixed and Mastered.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
I was in Hawaii and he had a show and I reached out
to see if we could get ticketsand this is like a ballroom,
it's like at the Hilton Ballroom, it's not like a real venue.
So we're like in the VIP area.
He comes over, he meets myentire family, he gushes over my
grandmother.
It's just absolutely lovely.
And then the next day I took mymom and my niece were swimming

(00:27):
with the dolphins and he wasthere with his much younger
girlfriend who I think they weretogether until he passed.
And he's got like this is, youknow, we've not, this is pre
video phone, so he's got likethe big camcorder and he's
recording her with the dolphinsand he's like Lisa, you know.
So Tony Bennett was mine for myfamily.
They were just like, wow, likeokay, tony Bennett like, knows

(00:48):
you and takes care of you.

Speaker 3 (00:52):
Welcome to Mixed and Mastered, a podcast where the
stories of the music industrycome to life.
I'm Jeffrey Sledge, bringingyou real conversations with the
people who have shaped the soundof music.
We're pulling back the curtainon what it takes to make it in
the music business.
These are the stories you won'thear anywhere else, told by the
people who live them.
This is Mixed and Mastered.

(01:14):
Now for part two of LisaCambridge Mitchell on Mixed and
Mastered.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
I was at LaFace for six years.
You were there for six years, Iwas.
I was there until they shut downand we're moving on to take
over Arista and LA was reallymad at me because LA was not big
on people leaving.
He was very loyal and heexpected loyalty from people.

(01:50):
And I didn't want to work atArista for a number of reasons.
One of the big ones was we hadwe had so much autonomy at
LaFace so I was bookingeverything.
I was booking the Grammys, Iwas booking the BET awards, I
was booking you know, I at somepoint my I became head of
marketing.
While I was there, I startedout as director of publicity and
then I became a product manager.

(02:12):
Um, and it was funny becauseDeVette again, devette was
torturing me and there was likea big scandal that happened at
the time and, um, she literallyrefused to come back to work.
She was just like I alwaysimagined her like fainting on
the couch Like her, her, herassistant was sleeping with
somebody she shouldn't have beensleeping with and she just
never came back to work, likethat was it.

(02:33):
So LA had kind of wanted he hadgiven me a lot of autonomy.
I was.
I was the only person like Iwas a product manager.
When I, when I became a productmanager, I no longer reported
to to her, which was odd becauseall the product managers
reported to her.
So what they did was they gaveme international um, because
international at that time waspublicity based.

(02:54):
So it was natural that it was anextension of my job as as the
head of publicity and then, um,eventually that kind of led to
me moving towards marketing.
So, so the first, the firstartist that I, the first album
that I marketed, was ushers myway album and that was like my
first, like this is mine from amarketing standpoint, and I

(03:15):
transitioned out of publicity.
And then eventually I took overthe department and I had I used
to joke that I was the silent Eon my face because basically,
you know, video, like everybodyreported to me, like video
production didn't report mebecause Billy was there and he
was amazing, um, but publicityreported to me.
I led all the budget.

(03:35):
You know, I had control overall the budgets.
I was like, you know, if youdidn't have me you couldn't
happen.
And LA and I had a relationshipthat I really appreciated
because and it was always alittle fraught because we'd be
in a meeting and somebody wouldhave an idea and he would be
like that's a great idea, that'scool, Like oh yeah, wow, I love
that.
And then as he walked out of theroom he would just like look at

(03:57):
me and I would be like we'renot doing that, like I would
know, like we had such a a great.
We were so symbiotic.
It was really a great.
It was such a great experienceworking with someone like that.
And so I became the person thatdid all of our international,
all those big internationalmeetings.
Um, I used to do all thepresentations for that, because

(04:18):
he didn't really like doing thatstuff, like he liked to a point
, but he just didn't want toalways have to go to present to
BMG overseas.
And then the head of HR at BMGat the time, iris Allen, really
liked me so he put me in a lotof the advancement programs.
So I got to do a lot oftraining and just I was really

(04:38):
supported.
I was really, really supportive.
So when they started talkingabout me going to Arista, I was
going to be in the black musicdepartment.
I was no longer going to bookGrammys, I was no longer going
to book MTV, I was no longergoing to book like it was like,
basically I was going to bereduced, yeah, but it was a step

(04:59):
backwards, ported to.
So I was just like, um, I thinkI'm going to leave, and LA was
mad at me.
He was really mad at me, um,but you know he was fine and I,
um, I ended up going to, um, hbo.
This was before the time Warnermerger.
Hbo is trying to be in thedigital space on the urban side,
and they started volumecom andso we were like, no, that's not.

(05:26):
No, that was Kevin Dowdell.
Okay, okay, like uh, he was acorporate guy but he hired like
the best of the best.
It was like Riggs Morales wasover there.
I was there.
Um, Dave Watkins was the onethat brought me in.
Yeah, dave walk, and then we hadlike veronica webb was writing

(05:47):
for us and we had like a reallygreat like we were.
We were like we were like twoweeks ahead of the curve, you
know what I mean like we weren'tthat far ahead.
But then when they did the timewhen time warner and aol which
that tells you how old I am andwhen aol and time warner merged,
they got rid of it because itwas like, well, yeah, they
deaded it and it was unfortunatebecause it was almost like I
mean we just had an incrediblestaff, like it was, and I also

(06:11):
made lifelong friends.
I mean, one of my friends is myson's godmother.
Another friend was just at myhouse two weeks ago for you know
, a couple of weeks Like likewe're all, like I built some
really great relationshipsthrough there, um, but but we
had people that had worked atChildren's Television Network,
we had people that had worked onSesame Street, we had people
that came out of LA that hadworked with Cosby.

(06:35):
Everybody was just so energizedand excited.
So it was really sad that itdidn't come together because
they put a lot behind it.
So I was there for a very shorttime, but I was glad to be back
in New York, because the wholetime I was in Atlanta I was like
I want to go back to New York.
And then I, I took a packageand I went and I, I, so they

(06:56):
they folded.
I took a package and LA waslike hey, you know, we're
starting new America with Kennyand I really, you know, I want
you back over there.

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Like Kenny needs help , and so I agreed to go.
That's baby face.
Kenny is baby.
Yeah, baby yeah, sorry yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Baby, yeah, no, no, no.
Okay, I've always called faceto Kenny, yeah, so he was like
he really needs help, he needssomebody who knows how to
structure it, and you would beworking with our staff.
Basically, we were more of anA&R company than anything else.
And he also brought in Andre,and Andre had a when you work,

(07:42):
know when somebody, when youwork with somebody, when you're
when you're really young andthey don't realize that you've
grown up, right.
So he was still dealing with me,like it was you know exactly
and I'm not that person anymoreand I have the same.
You know, I have relationshipswith people who you have
relationships with, and so wereally butted heads and what

(08:03):
they did I was.
It was really unfortunate,because I do, even to this day,
I feel like it was a little bitof a setup.
They wanted, they didn't want,andre had just come off of
Uptown where he was likespending money like a drunken
soldier or a drunken sailor, andso they didn't want him to get
into that trap.
So I was, I was intended to bethe person who was, you know,

(08:23):
the stopgap for spending, and sowe were.
I didn't report to him, we wereco-equals and he just didn't
like it.
He just didn't like it.
And I remember, you know andthis is not to shade face, baby
face in any way, because I lovehim and he was amazing and

(08:44):
working with him was he's justincredible but I remember baby
face.
I was three months into mythree-year deal and baby face
called me to the studio and hewas like well, lisa, you know,
you know that Andre can't workwith women, and that was like it
was so hard.
But I mean, I knew that it wastrue, but it was so hard, right,
and he was like you know, andrecan't work with women and this

(09:05):
isn't going to like, this justisn't going to work.
And I was like, okay, and thenhe wanted me to be, um, his kind
of like his manager assistant.
And basically they startedtelling me about, you know.
I was like well, you'd come tomy house and you'd pack my bags
and you'd make sure.
I was like yeah, yeah, that waspretty much my response.
So when, um, I got a call fromuh, I'll never forget this I got

(09:27):
a call from Clement Williams,who is the head of like Clement,
I think, used to work at theFBI or the CIA or something and
he was head of HR at BMG.
And Clement was like, like youare scared if you heard from
Clement, because he was like nofreaking joke.
And he called me and he waslike, hey, so you know, you're

(09:49):
only three months into your deal.
Uh, we're going to give you 10cents on the dollar for the rest
of, you know, for the remainderof your deal.
And I was like, okay, so I justwant to ask a question.
So when they told me that I wasbeing let go because Andre
couldn't work with women.
What should I do with thatinformation?

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
And he said and I didn't even like.
I was like what do I do withthat?
Like what do I do with that?
And I remember he took a deepbreath inside and he was like,
did he say that to you?
I said absolutely.
And he said okay, uh, I'll callyou back.
I never heard from Clementagain.
I just got the separationagreement that they were going

(10:25):
to pay me my three years.
Full.
So full.
So for three years I was makingmore money.
I was.
I was making way more moneythan I had ever made in my
entire career and I wasn'tworking.
Now, in theory, that's amazing,right, but if that messes with
your head, you know, because Iwas no longer.

(10:46):
I had been Lisa from the face,I had been Lisa from uptown, I
had been Lisa, and now I'm justlike at home.

Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Getting a big ass.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
But you're not doing anything.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
I'm not doing anything and I'm not in the, I'm
not in the community in thesame way, and it was really hard
, it was a really I always likeI struggled with that.
So for three years I was athome just because I they were
like well, if you go back towork, basically they were going
to.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
If I took a job, the money cuts off.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Right so and I just didn't.
There weren't any jobs.
You know, I remember when I gotpromoted to vice president,
when when Dorsey at that point Iwas, was when dorsey james was
at, when I was at la face, heprovoked for me from director
level, vice president level.
He called me in his office.
He was really excited becausehe had lobbied for me and he was
just like lisa, I'm reallyexcited to tell you we're
promoting you and I burst intotears and he was like and dorsey

(11:40):
was a very like, he was just,he was like a, he was like half
like a big brother kind of dadtype personality.
So I burst into tears.
And he was just like what is?
Happening, yeah, and I saidyou're making me unemployable,
right, because how many VPs were?

Speaker 3 (11:55):
there yeah, not many.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
In Black music right.
So I was like you just made meunemployable?

Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yeah, not many.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
So um, so I was home, I wasn't working, and then
Marissa Menture and I you knowMarissa, she was yeah, so
Marissa and I were friendly, shewas good friends Marissa's best
friend is one of my bestfriends and Marissa was at my
house and I remember I said shewas like how are you doing?

(12:22):
And I was like you know what?
I think I should go back towork.
This is too comfortable.
I need to go back to work.
I'm living on 3rd Street.
I have a 1,200 square footapartment that I bought, I'm
chilling.
It was just the right momentthat Marissa was just like wait,
are you serious?
Because Jive is looking forsomebody.

(12:44):
By that point, there had beenso many mergers.
All my artists from Luthien.

Speaker 3 (12:49):
That went to Jive.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
And they hated it.
Hold on one second.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
Give me two seconds um.
Thank you sorry.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
no worries, you came to the job because I was there
yeah, you were there and all myartists were there and they were
really unhappy because itwasn't the same.
It wasn't very different in theface yep, exactly, and so they
immediately had somebody whocould walk in.
That was very different thanthe face Yep, exactly, and so

(14:14):
they immediately had somebodywho could walk in and talk to
all of those artists.

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Yeah, I could talk.

Speaker 2 (14:20):
Like I could walk in and deal with Barry but I could
deal with Usher.
Yeah, exactly that.
I had the relationships, whichwas great timing for me.
I mean it was a step back interms of title and pay and stuff
like that, but it was like Ihad been employed for three
years, so it made sense that itwas a step back.
And um, going there was, was itfelt very.
It felt like that was wow, Ireally worked hard to get like I

(14:45):
, I it really made me appreciateall of the success that I had
been a part of up until thatpoint in my career because, you
know, walking in the door, Iknew I knew my shit.
I knew the artists, I knew howto deal with them.
I knew how to deal with themanagers.
Everybody was like you know, soit was I liked that.
I really I enjoyed thattransition.
Um, and Jive was just Jive wasjust like bizarre to me.

(15:07):
I mean, the whole time I was ajob, I was like I just never
forget the label meeting, myfirst label meeting, and you
know the meeting's supposed tobe at two and we go in the
conference room and it's fiveand there's no, there's no, yeah
sitting around like ourmeetings.

(15:28):
we were tight, Like LA LaFacewas tight, we ran everything.
Like we were like boom, boom,boom, everything.
So I'm like sitting there andI'll never forget.
I went to Larry Kahn's office.
I was like I don't know.
I went to Tom Caraba's officeand I was like this is something
you should have mentioned inthe interview.
Like you like, so everywednesday I'm just like a
hostage until like, and so thatwas.

(15:50):
I had a really hard time withthat because it felt so
disrespectful and so, um,entitled like we.
You know, it was like until I'mready right, and when you think
about the capital, the, the, thebusiness capital and the, the
financial capital of all ofthose people who are making a
lot of money sitting aroundwaiting, I was, I was so doing

(16:14):
nothing, just not working.
I was so offended Like Istruggled with that for years.
I was just like you cannot beserious, um, but you know, but I
think you know, my job wasinteresting for me because jive
showed me I hate to say this outloud, but Jive showed me that I
was never going to get to whereI wanted to be in the industry.

(16:35):
Right, because I really my, Ithink my my general aspirations
and this was why I took the NewAmerica job at the time.
Aside from it being Kenny,being baby face, I really wanted
to be a GM babyface.
I really wanted to be a GM andI wanted to be a GM for, you
know, we had all of these likewhen you and I came up.

(16:55):
We had all these boutique labels, you know, like in lifestyle,
and I wanted to be a GM for thenext generation of them, right?
So we had been talking, when Iwas at LaFace, we were doing a
deal, we were trying to do adeal for um, you know, with
organized noise, for red clay,and we had been talking about
being a GM and it didn't workout.
It was fine but but it was likeI really felt like you know, I
had.
I'm one of the few executivesand I say this proudly, I'm one

(17:17):
of the few executives who'vepretty much worked in every
department.
I have worked, you know.
I have done promotion, I havedone international, I've done
marketing, I've run marketing.
I, you know, I've had creativeservices report to me.
I've had video productionreport to me.
I've had publicity report to me, like I have done.

(17:39):
There is not an area of themusic business, when I was in it
, that I had not had significantexperiences that I could not
speak about with authority,right, because I, you know I'd
done in promotion, I'd doneretail, you know, and then in
our in we three, if you neededhelp, like if Vanessa had to
make calls and she didn't haveenough time.
I was on the phone doing collegepromo like radio promo.

(18:01):
So I was really.
I was always, I feel, like Iwas really good at my job
because I understood whateverybody else had to do.
I was never, I never.
They never had to educate andexplain what they needed from me
, and I think that my peersreally appreciated that.
And then in turn, I was alsoable to.
When my artists werecomplaining, I was able to
explain to them what wasactually going on and what we

(18:23):
actually needed to do and why itwas important.
Right and I wanted my, myprofessional goals were to be
not I didn't want to be like aGM at like a dive.
I wanted to be a GM at likethat, that little boutique label
that was as impactful as theones that I had worked for.
And those really didn't exist,um, anymore that that, um, you

(18:45):
know all that money.
I used to say that like peopleused to be like, oh, the music
industry is shrinking.
I said, of course it is Becauseyou know if the white man in
charge of the labels and youknow at the distribution level
and at the, you know at thehighest levels, if they're not
making money they're not goingto let you make money Exactly.
Right.
So that was really hard.

(19:05):
And I remember I just at Jiveespecially, like I could never
get anywhere at that company andI remember going to Tom Carraba
and being like, listen, likeyou got to do more for me, Like
I'm way too experienced to belike so, Tom, I give Tom credit.
Tom was the one that promotedme to SVP, but he gave me the
money first.
He was like, listen, I can giveyou the money before I can get

(19:27):
you the title.
And I always that always stuckwith me Like that's so messed up
, Right.
Like he was like, oh, I'll getyou the money.
So if you're willing to takethe money, the SVP money, and I
promise I will work on gettingyou the title on the next round,
you know, of promotions.

(20:09):
And so that was what he did andhe stood.
He stood true to his word.
He was the one that promoted me.
And after, with all the mergersI don't even remember all the
mergers that happened I neverran a department again.
Like I ran, I had 50 people onmy staff at LaFace.
I never had more than maybe sixor seven people on my staff
after I left Well, LaFace, andeven at HBO I had like 56 people
or something like that.
So I always felt really stuntedand because I felt like the
artists that I had, the artiststhat I worked with, were so
exceptional I wasn't reallyinterested in going someplace
else, right, and I wasn't reallyinterested, like I wasn't

(20:37):
interested in courting anotherlabel to try to, like you know,
advance my career that way again, because I wanted to work with
those people that, like, had aperspective and had, you know,
like I remember, do you rememberlittle mama?
So I always, like I always usethis as an example, like and
this goes back to growing up onthe Upper West Side.
to be honest, Little mama's dad,True, was batshit crazy.
True was insane and True, and Iadored each other, adored each
other, right, and one of thereasons, one of the ways that we

(20:58):
bonded, was we were in a biglabel meeting.
There were all these people inthe meeting.
It was more like junior workmeeting.
There were all these people inthe meeting and I was watching
true and he was getting offendedand I was like, hey, you guys
can we just take a break?
I need a minute with true.
And I pulled them aside, Ipulled in my office, we went to
my office and he was like he waslike true was like a pit bull,

(21:20):
like he was like you know, andand I was like um, true, I just
want to make something perfectlyclear to you.
You can't punch anybody in theface.
This is not that situation.
They will have you arrested,you will have problems.
You cannot come up here andthink you got to play pizza.
Yeah, yeah, thugging it out, andI remember he wanted I could
see him.
Ian Steven was talking and Icould see him looking at Ian and

(21:43):
like tensing, and I was like,and Ian wasn't even like, ian
was just being.
Ian and being honest and kind ofyou know, um, but like that, as
silly as that may sound, thatwas my sweet spot.
Like somebody like that, like Icould use my education and my
presentation and my ability toshow up and make everybody
comfortable and talk to you know, the white, the white

(22:06):
leadership that had no, theydidn't even know any black
people.
That didn't work for them, um,and I could also talk to true
and be like and be like likewhat the fuck are you?
doing and he used to be like andI remember in that conversation
he was like that's why I fuckswith you.
That's why I fucks with you allright, I ain't gonna hurt
nobody.
I was like and don't come uphere with it, because he was
carrying.

(22:26):
And I saw that he was carryingand nobody else saw that shit.
And I'm like don't come up herewith a gun again, please.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
And he was like I'm like not dead ass, like you got
to chill.

Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, dead ass.
Like you can't, like, you can't, like, you can't do that Like
he's got it.
You said to true, I beat, we hada true and I had an agreement
that I was like, if somethingcomes up that you don't
understand, you come look for me.
And he came to me a couple oftimes like, yo, what the fuck
was that?
I'm like okay, this is whatthat was.
This is how international works.
This is why we can't do this.

(22:58):
This is why we couldn't giveyou money for that Um, and I
have that ability to make peoplefeel comfortable, um,
comfortable while also runningbusiness.
So it was always frustrating tome that I didn't kind of take
my career as far as I want.
I remember when Jeff Jotis, whohad been doing digital, was
promoted over me and became myboss, he put me in his office

(23:19):
and he was like I don't know whyyou report to me.
You should not report to me.
I don't even know what to say,but I will not get in your way.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
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Speaker 4 (23:46):
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And now back to our show.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
I like Jeff Doe, I didn't read him well at first
but once I got to know him, alittle bit.
I was like nah, I fucks withyou, jeff.
He was cool, he was cool.

Speaker 2 (24:14):
And he lived.
He only lives like he lives inLewisboro, which is like 20
minutes from my house.
I've never run into him oranything, but when we moved up
here he was like superuncomfortable.
I was like, oh, we moved toRichville.
And he was like, oh my God, I'mgoing to run into you, I'm
going to have to talk to you,I'm going to see you at the
Target.

Speaker 3 (24:32):
You know Exactly.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, so he was really good.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
Before we move on to the next part, tell me I know
there's many of them.
Tell me, because what peopledon't understand is you know?
You see Chris Brown now right,he's a superstar.
I always tell people and it'svery tight, he's probably this I

(24:57):
always say 1A most talentedartist I've ever been around.
The most talented artist I'veever been around was R Kelly,
just talent-wise.
I'm not talking abouttalent-wise, the writing, the
playing, the.
I've seen R Kelly playing NatKing Cole songs, but Chris is
right there, not as far asplaying, but just being a true

(25:21):
artist.
He'd come up to the office,he'd have drawn some dope shit
on his Timbs and he was just soartistic.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
He used to sleep in my office.
He used to take naps in myoffice.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
He was like 15, 16.
He was a child when he signedto Jive.
He was a child, so we literallysaw him grow up, literally
Right.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
My son is 15.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
It freaks me out, I'm always like Usher was 12 when I
met him and chris was 15 andI'm a kid, so and I was just,
you know, then rihanna thinghappened and you know, things
kind of went crazy, um.
But um, I'm glad to see himwhere he is now, because he is
that level of talent to like toput out these records and do

(26:07):
these massive shows, and eventhough they jerk him every year
at the Grammys.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
But do you know, have you ever really thought about
how he's been able to do that?

Speaker 3 (26:17):
I don't, I haven't figured it out.

Speaker 2 (26:19):
So this is the brilliance of Chris, and this is
where Chris does not get enoughcredit.
Chris was the last of theartists on the deals.
He was the last artist thatwasn't on a 360 right true, true
true, right.
So so he was just a straightsign whatever deal straight sign
.
So but when, if you remember,when we were working chris in

(26:41):
the beginning, chris startedmaking mix tapes and we were
like we were like you arekilling us.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
What are you?

Speaker 2 (26:47):
doing?
What are you doing?
Stop it.
And the mix tapes remember hisalbums were all like you know.
You had Yo and he had thedimples and the smile and he was
like the perfect little kid,perfect teenager that you wanted
your daughter to bring home.
And then the mix tapes werelike we're really him.

Speaker 3 (27:05):
That was him for real .

Speaker 2 (27:12):
And what Chris were like, really him, that was him
for real, right.
And what chris what chris wasbrilliant and it continues to be
brilliant about what chris wasat that time brilliant about was
he understood that he had to gohigh and he had to go low,
right, and that if he went highhe could be on radio and if he
went low he would have streetsin the streets.
In the streets, yes, in thestreets, but he would have

(27:34):
Chris's mom.
I mean not Chris's mom, the momwould like yo and the daughter
would like the gutter themixtapes.
Right, it was right at thebeginning of mixtapes mattering
that he started doing that.
So that's one thing that I'vealways thought was really
brilliant about chris, and youknow to your point about him

(27:54):
just being creative and being anartist, because chris chris
could.
Chris chris couldn't draw whenwe first signed him.
Like he grew into this likeamazing graffiti artist, right
like he drew.

Speaker 4 (28:06):
It was like every other dude exactly, exactly, um,
but the.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
So he did that.
And then his work ethic it does.
It never met.
Like chris always wanted to bein the studio and that was
actually one of the bigchallenges when we had the
merger and we went to RCA, thebiggest challenge that they had
with Chris was that Chriswouldn't come to the office.

(28:33):
I will never forget this.
I went to see Chris.
Tina was still managing him.
I went to Chris and I was justlike hey, they want to see you,
they want some FaceTime with you.
And he was like tell them tocome to the studio.
And I was like no, they want todo it.
I think it was Grammys, thestudio.
And I was like no, they want todo it.
It was, I think it was grammysor something.
I was like they want to do itat the grammys.
He was like so they don'tactually want to get to know me.
I was like chris, you got it.

(28:57):
Like and he was like no, Idon't know.
And I had to like literally sitthere and be like chris, can
you do it for me?
Like I need you to.
Like this is these are mybosses, these are people that
control your release schedule.
Like money you have to say hi,yeah, he was like.
Chris was like I don't need totalk to nobody, but you, I'm
good.
I was like no, you're not, youcan't do that.

(29:20):
So chris, chris's entire likewhether he was having problems
or doing whatever he was like,whatever was in insanity might
be going on in his life.
He would always be in thestudio.
He would always be recordingand he was always pro artist and
pro writer right, like chris,respected the writers.

(29:41):
Like you know, I look at whatchris did for seven streeter as
a writer.
Right, he understood, likechris.
I don't, I don't know where itcomes from, because Chris is not
the kind of person who's justkind of like do something for no
reason, like he's.
He's very it's not that he'stransactional, but he's very
like deliberate.
He's really stubborn.
So if he decides he's going todo something, he's going to do

(30:01):
it.
If he decides he's not going todo it, he's not going to do it.
But Chris always supported thesong the writers and the
producers.
He always was out there capingfor them and I think that's like
the.
What he's seeing now, what'shappening in his career now, is
an accumulation of being, youknow, to your point.

(30:21):
He's just undeniable he'sabsolutely undeniable.
Did you see the meme thing thatwas going around last week?
The woman that was like?
She was like she was probablyin her late 40s, like early 40s,
late 30s, and she was at hisshow and she was nearly in tears
because she was like he's beenon stage for three hours and I
got to go to work tomorrow andyou can hear him playing in the

(30:41):
background.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
You can hear him singing songs like in the
background he's on stage andshe's in like the lobby area and
she's like.
I paid 200 for this ticket.
He's already done 400 worth ofshow.
I gotta leave.
I don't like.
And that's chris, like you knowwhat he didn't do one song
still in those three hours.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
He had more shit he could have done.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
He just yeah more shit yeah and did you know that,
chris?

Speaker 2 (31:04):
did you know that when we signed chris I will
never forget this we a?
Do you remember?
We did that big showcase atplanet Hollywood for everybody.
It was like the first time, likewe had signed him and a lot of
people were like he, you know,like no one wanted to believe
that he was going to be amazing.
And I put him in rehearsal andI went by rehearsals and I was

(31:25):
like hey, you know how's itgoing Like.
And Chris was like he's like,oh, it's okay, you know.
And he was using a headset micand, um, I remember I said to

(31:48):
him I was like chris, that thatmic is not, it's not working
like, all right, so what do youusually perform with?
And he was like what do youmean?
I'm like, well, what kind ofmic do you usually use?
He was like for what I'm like?
And this is when you're talkingto a 15-year-old right he's
like for what I'm like.
I think it's an easy question,like when you perform, what

(32:12):
microphone do you like to use?
And finally they clicked and hewas like I've never performed
before.
I was like squeeze me, he'slike I've never performed before
.
Yeah, chris did not come uplike usher.
When I'm at usher he had onecar search.
Like he was right, chris hadnever been on stage until we did

(32:36):
that.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Hollywood Virginia, he was just a kid from Virginia
from.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
Tappahannock, virginia.
I went to Tappahannock, by theway, different story, but but
Chris like.
So, chris, like his talent Imean we had, we were like we had
millions of dollars invested inhim.
And I remember going back tothe label meeting and being like
did anybody know that chrisbrown has never been on a stage
before?
And everyone was like what,yeah, how did?

(33:02):
no one know that yeah, they justeverybody just figured like, of
course he did talent shows.
He had never done a talent show, he he had.
It was wild.
I have never experienced thatbefore, I've never had that tell
me about working at um at titleuh, that didn't really work for

(33:24):
me.
So, in fairness, I have been inone ecosystem for so long.
I have been in that beat sony,bmg, you know bmg, sony,
eventually, ecosystem, and withthe same group of people.
So I didn't know the rocknation people, so I didn't
really have a relationship withthem.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
They're so cult, almost there's.
It's cultish I don't know manyyes and so and ty, ty like a
little teeny bit and pretty muchthat's it.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, I know any of them and uh des hired me, um,
and I actually like I reallyreally liked des, liked Des, but

(34:17):
yo, she is frightening, right.
So I remember when I when, as Iwas getting to know her, we,
you know, we'd be in meetingsand we could be in a meeting and
everybody would have would bebuttoned up Like we could talk
about a project and I'd be likeokay, this, this, I'm like okay,
great.
And then Des would walk in theroom and she'd be like okay,
tell me what's going on, and Iwould defer to the person who
you know I would.
I was very I've always been I'm.
I don't believe that powershould rest with me like I'm

(34:37):
like, if you know we're in,we're working together, I'm
gonna like give everybody theopportunity to shine.
So I remember I turned tosomebody who was like really
dope at their job and I was likeokay, so you should like
explain to Des what we're doing,and they were like gross
because everybody there was soafraid of her
exactly.
And then she would be.

(34:58):
She would be so upset like thendes would be upset because she
would be like nothing's gottendone.
And I'm like no, that's nottrue.
Like these people are so scaredof you.
And she was just like lookingat me like what are you talking
about?
Like why are they scaring me?
I'm like I don't know, butthey're scared of you.
And she was just looking at melike what are you talking about?
Why are they scared of me?
I'm like I don't know, butthey're scared of you.
But when I got there, it was acouple of things.
I got there at a time.

(35:18):
Can we talk about me leavingRCA?
So I left RCA, I was pissed, Iwas pissed, I was pissed.
I was pissed because whatbasically happened was they
hired someone to take overmarketing who had never done

(35:39):
marketing before and what theyou know who that was, and what
they did was the that personreally was, and I had known that
person for almost 20 years atthat point and I was actually
looking forward to working withthem.
And when they when they hadknown that person for almost 20
years at that point and I wasactually looking forward to
working with them and, um, whenthey, when they had him take
over marketing what he did, hedid things that were just grimy,
like, for example, I wasn'tallowed to book me, not just me,

(36:02):
but like you're, like I'm, likean SVP and I'm not permitted to
book conference rooms anymore.
You had to go through hisoffice so that he could decide
if your meeting was somethingthat he wanted to sit in on.
Right, and he was using youknow, I know what I'm being used
Like you can't like, you knowseriously, like, come on, um, he

(36:27):
was, he really was trying touse the capital of other
people's relationships to learnwhat the hell he was supposed to
be doing and also to, um, todevelop relationships, right.
So I stopped having meetings inconference rooms.
I did all my meetings in myoffice, right, and that made him
pissed Like that, pissed himoff.
Pissed like that pissed him off.

(36:50):
And then the other thing heused to do in meetings, which
was like my favorite.
This was like my favorite catand mouse game.
He would be in a meeting and itwould be like, hey, so we're
gonna, you know, we'd have thisbig release coming up and we'd
start talking about it and hewould, basically they would turn
to him as the, you know, headof marketing and they'd be like,
what are we gonna do?
And he would say, hey, yeah,you know, I've been in some
conversations I'm going to usemyself as an example but there

(37:10):
was more than just me involved.
He would say, well, you know,we're trying to, we're trying to
narrow it down.
And so, lisa, you know, hereare the things that, like the
things that we were concernedabout, would come up in the
conversation.
And then he would turn to meand be like so, lisa, for that
project, like what are youthinking?
And at first I was not totallypaying attention and I would be

(37:31):
like, well, I think, blah, blah,blah, we should do this
approach, we should do thatstrategy.
And then one day I was likethis is what he's using.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
He don't know what he's talking about, so he's like
you don't know what he'stalking about.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Right, right.
So what I started doing was heand be like so what are you
thinking?
And I'd say, you know I need tokind of let me this is the
first time I'm really hearingthis.
Let me digest it a bit while.
Why don't you go ahead and you,you take the lead and let us
let him and I remember that lookon his face.

(38:01):
The first time I did that hewas like this bitch like and so,
and so our relationship, itdeteriorated very rapidly.
I would have my artists andmanagers loved me, like they
loved, like we had greatrelationships with them.
So they would come up to theoffice, they'd say hi, they'd
play records, we'd have lunch,like we just.
But I'm also very much a personwith boundaries.

(38:22):
I am real clear that mypersonal life is my personal
life.
Like I'm not that person.
And we I remember we hadTinasasha and her manager came
up to see me.
She was in between records, inbetween singles, I think, and
she came out there.
The management management cameto see me and they were really
excited about some records andhe played them for me and I was
like, oh, that was great.
We were chatting.
We were like, well, what aboutthis, what about that?

(38:43):
And what do you think abouttiming?
And we're just like we weremeeting, but really we were just
hanging out because we had agood relationship.
And after they left, like thenext day he comes out my office
and he was like, why didn't youcall me into the tenante meeting
?
And I was like, cause it wasn'ta meeting, they stopped at my
office.
And he was just like you know,in the future, when you have a
meeting with any manager, anyartists, I need to be informed

(39:05):
so that I can decide if I'mgoing to be there.
And I was just like, okay, okay, okay.
And the final straw is I willnever forget this Like we had an
issue, chris, cause youremember, chris, he just put
records out and we'd be like, ohGod, right.
So Chris just like put a recordout and I was chasing it down to
get it at iTunes and Spotifyand everything.

(39:26):
And we did, we, we, andeverything.
We got it.
It was live.
Art was there, all the thingswere there.
He called me, not Chris, theother person he called me and he
said, hey, so international.
So there's a problem with howyou handled the Chris Brown
release.
I was just like okay, and hesaid you know it has been said.

(39:50):
It has been said I'm like beensaid it has been said, because
I'm like who said it?
Who, who, who is they and what?
Get them on the phone.
So he's like well, it's beensaid that you did xyz and you
should have done it this way.
And I was just like, but that'snot how it works, that's not
because at the time, like applehat was very strict at that time
and so you could get up tospotify within 24 hours, but

(40:10):
apple was just a couple of daysand you know, it was just like
the quality control it wasalways like a thing.
And he was just like well, itshould have gone up everywhere
at once and I was like that wasnot a possibility because Chris
put the record out.
You know, that was not never.
That's not how it works.
And I said, okay, you need toput whoever has this issue on
the phone with me, because Idon't know, I don't do that, I

(40:31):
don't play games.
I was like I don't play games.
If I have a problem withsomebody, you know, for better
or worse I come straight at you.
So I was just like okay, youknow.
So he puts me on the phone.
He calls Monica I love Monica.
He calls Monica Cornea and acouple other people.
She actually he called her andshe was in someone else's office
who worked in sales, and theyput it on speaker and and I sat

(40:52):
quietly cause I knew I wasn'twrong, and he was like yeah, so
I'm talking to Lisa and I'mtelling her that you know this,
she should have done this and Ineed you to really like you know
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
And he like just talked himselfinto a corner and they were
like that's not how it works andthat's not what we said.
We said that we wish that Chrishadn't done this so that we

(41:13):
could get the record up properly.
But what, lisa?

Speaker 3 (41:16):
did the only thing that we could do was.
That's not how it works.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Right and he was pissed because I didn't say
anything.
I just sat and listened andsaid nothing and he was pissed.
So fast forward.
We're moving into the newbuilding and I was, uh, standing
at caroline williams office.
We were, I was in her doorwaytalking to her and I saw the
head.
I saw amory weiss walk by andhr had already left the building

(41:43):
.
We were the lab.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
I don't know you weren't there.

Speaker 2 (41:46):
We were the last.
We were the last company tomove into the building because,
basically, tom corson was likey'all are not gonna have us be
guinea pigs.
We got too many things going on, so we want to move last.
Well, after you guys figuredout the internet and figured out
all the shit, that's not gonnawork.
So, um, I was standingcarolyn's office in amory, walk
by, and I remember thinking likewhy is she here?

(42:07):
Right, because I knew they'dalready moved.
And then my assistant came overand was just like I had left my
phone in my office.
My assistant was like I've beenlooking for you.
You know he wants you in hisoffice.
And I was like I turned toCarolyn and I said I think I'm
going to get laid off today andshe looked at me with like
horror because it meant that shewould have gotten all my
projects Right.
So she was just like what?

(42:28):
Like I can't take all your.
I was like.
She was like don't even play,I'm like all right, let me see
how it goes.
So I've I have always felt thiswas my finest hour.
I walked in the office and HRwas there.
The person that was the head ofmarketing there was there, and
I think that was it.
I mean, I've been one otherperson, I don't remember and I
walked in and I stood at thedoor and I was like oh, okay, am

(42:48):
I going to be working here whenthis conversation is over?
And he said can you just comein and sit down?
I was like no, no, no, no, no,I cannot.
Am I going to be working herewhen this conversation is over?
Will I continue?
Will I still be employed here?
And he said well, you know,we're making some changes.
And I was just like okay, theanswer is changes.

(43:11):
And I was just like okay, theanswer is no.
And he was like and you couldjust see man because we had
already fired her Like I want to.
I wouldn't know.
So he was like well, he waslike well, he just was like so
exasperated.
He was like, well, no, you'renot.
Was like okay, then I don'tneed to speak to you.
What are we talking?
She needs to speak with myattorney.

Speaker 3 (43:31):
He's like well, can you just?

Speaker 2 (43:32):
yeah.
He was like, well, can you comein?
I was like no, and I didn'teven close his door.
I was like no, no, I can't, I,there's nothing for us to talk
about, and part of where thatcame from was he took me to
lunch.
I'll never forget this.
He took me to lunch and he saidyou know, lisa, he took me to
lunch and he said you know, lisa, this might not work out.
And I'm like I am not the one.
So I was like, um, I agree, Iwill let you know how I feel

(43:56):
about it.
And from that point, like hewas just undone and I had
documented everything I have,like I had gone to HR about it,
I had gone to Tom Corson, I gotto everybody about it, I
documented it all.
I had, like you know, a runningdiary, everything was going on.
Like really just inappropriate.
Yeah, and what they did wasbecause his role didn't exist.

(44:16):
What they did was they pulleddown from the GM, right, so he
got, he took on a lot of likeCorson stuff and then they
pulled up from the SVPs.
So I used to sit in the likeSony worldwide planning meetings
and have like a landscape.
I understood the landscape ofglobally, what we were doing.
Suddenly, I'm not in thosemeetings anymore and I was

(44:36):
pissed because I was just likeso I'm just a product manager, I
happen to be an SVP, but I'mjust like you have reduced me to
a product manager who cannotbook a conference room, like no,
no.
And so I was really bitter,really really bitter.
Um, and I got, uh, I got agreat package.
There was no, you know, theydidn't play with my money.

(44:57):
I got my bonus, um, but theydid try to.
Um, they tried to tell MarkPitts I'll never forget Mark.
Mark was pissed and they triedto tell Mark that they were like
well, you know you need tounderstand that he had a tough
decision to make.
He had to.
He had to choose betweenCarolyn and Lisa, and so you
know Mark is loyal and I'veknown Mark since Uptown, so you

(45:22):
know, mark was, when he wasmanaging Biggie, like I knew him
from then when Biggie was onUptown.
So Mark was immediately ready tolike go to fight for me and I
was like listen, don't let themtrick you.
I said the problem is they haveto pay for him now.
I said they need my money.
This has nothing to do with atough decision between me and
Carolyn, don't let them lie toyou.
That has nothing to do with it.
They created a position thatthey didn't have the money for

(45:45):
and now they need my salary,right.
And they they let they laid off.
Like, if you do the math, theylaid off that day they laid off
me and one other person and thatwas about the right number,
right.
So I was like don't, don't letthem bamboozle.
You Like it's just you, yousupport Carolyn, cause he wasn't
.
He wasn't like Carolyn.

Speaker 3 (46:14):
We weren't, like we weren't, I wouldn't call us
friends.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Yeah, we were always on the same side, we always saw
what was happening, Um, and thatwas really disheartening and it
kind of like you know Iremember talking to.
I ran into Sylvia Rohn once atthe beach in a vineyard, and I
was like you know, Sylvia, Isaid I got to tell you, as much
as I want to like sell in thisbusiness, I'm not willing to
sacrifice what you sacrificed.
I want a family.

(46:38):
I want to you know, there areall these things that I want for
my life.
And Sylvia was like it was soamazing Cause she got real quiet
, no-transcript.

(47:13):
It was literally like working.
It was like the nineties, likepeople would call you and scream
on you and I was like this isnot 1991.
You are not going to talk to melike that.
It was also one of the thingsthat was really interesting
about working at title at thattime.
One of the things that wasreally interesting about working
a title at that time was therewas this kind of like in, like

(47:34):
this influx, but they werereally working with um.
I can't, uh, what is his name?
I can't think of his name.
He's a Dominican artist, um,actually Usher did a record with
him, um, and so there were this.
There was this like kind ofDominican artists, latin artists
that they were cultivating andit was really awkward because I

(47:54):
grew up in a Dominicanneighborhood, so I understood
everybody, I understood whatthey were trying to do and I
understood the culture, but Idon't speak Spanish so I was
always kind of not really ableto be part of those
conversations because they wouldeventually you know, flip it
into Spanish and I would just belike fuck.
So that that was hard.
And then I got sick, um, I havelupus, and I ended up, um, I

(48:18):
was on my way home and I endedup having like a a little health
crisis and was, you know, inthe hospital I actually resigned
from title from the hospital.
Um, because I was, because Ididn't know them.
If I had been at sony, you know, or rca, when I got sick, I
would have just taken a leaveand you know.
But I didn't know the titlepeople and I didn't.

(48:41):
I didn't enjoy being there,like it felt.
It just was so, like, not thatit was toxic, but it was just so
like, not that it was toxic,but it was just so like nobody
trusted anybody.
Everybody's like screaming onpeople and the team was great.
It was an amazing group ofpeople there.
They went on to do some reallygreat things with Tidal and

(49:03):
Tidal I don't know if you'veever really used it.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
The sound quality of Tidal is like it's for autofiles
.
Yeah, it sounds way better thaneverything else.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
It's way better than everything else.
Um, but I just I wasn't in aplace where I could ask them to
understand because I did notknow them.

Speaker 3 (49:22):
I didn't know them at all.
Persistent joy, persistent joy.
Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Yeah, persistent joy.
So I started when I left and Iwas sick for I was probably sick
for about two years after Ileft Idol and I really I started
thinking about what I wanted todo next and one of the things
that what I loved about my jobalways was artist development.
I loved being able to sit downand talk to an artist and have

(49:51):
someone come in.
You know I would say like Iloved, you know, you know, have
pink come in the door and she'sin a group and the group is
really not very good and she'strying to figure out who she
wants to be and you know,connecting her with David Myers.
And you know, like I, like Iloved that part in addition to
just the logistics, like I lovelogistics.

(50:11):
I love a plan.
I love executing a plan, but thebiggest thing I saw was I said,
well, I want to continue tosupport creatives.
And at the time, like now, 10years later, which is crazy,
coaching is so kind of.
I mean, first of all, you havepeople that are just like I give
good advice, I'm a coach.
That's not what it is.
I went and I got my trainingand I understand the modality of

(50:32):
coaching and what coachingreally does more than anything
else is it says okay, what do wedo from this point forward?
It doesn't really look at thepast except for information,
right?
So that's the probably biggestthing is we say, okay, what do
you want to do now?
And holding people accountableand getting them to to, um, get
rid of their, their blocks.
And I, I it.

(50:53):
It spoke to me.
I kept saying to people I waslike I want to help artists and
I didn't realize at the timewhen I was saying that that I
was describing coaching.
Um, and, having gone to UVA,our alumni association does
these like career developmentprograms every once in a while,
and I was on this call and I wasjust like you know, a little
bit like I don't know what I'mgonna do with myself, because I

(51:13):
couldn't, you know, we live anhour and a half from the city.
I couldn't, I can't you knowhelp you every day yeah, I can't
.
I there's, I have a lot of likeI I have to rest, like I'm a
person, I now you know whateverum, but I kept saying it to
people.
And then I went to this, like Idid this webinar, and there was

(51:34):
this woman and she was talkingabout coaching and I was like,
holy shit, that's what I've beensaying to people, that's what
I've been trying to describe.
So I ended up, um, and I'm notwoo woo, so I didn't want to do
the like you know we're going totalk about your aura Like I

(51:59):
wanted to actually have it basedin science, based in um, in
helping people in a way that was, you know, do no harm and
helping, you know, like I justwanted to help, like I just I'm
a helper and that's what Iwanted.
And, um, I did my training andthen I just started putting it
out there that I was coachingand I ironically, I have only
done a couple of things in themusic business, like I usually
there I did like a seminar, Imean a webinar for um, universal

(52:19):
music that Toya Summers, umconnected me with them, and I
did like a you know.
I had like 500 people on a callor something crazy, um, but most
of my clientele are filmmakersand storytellers, and so I work
with, which isn't really thatmuch different, honestly, um,
but I work with.
I primarily work with women,mostly women of color, Um, and I

(52:42):
work with a lot of fellowships.
This current climate is alittle hard because a lot of the
funding for the programs that Iwould work with are they were
diversity based.
So they're being attacked.
But I've done work with theCanadian Academy, which is like
their version of the Oscars.
I've worked with indigenousindigenous filmmakers and

(53:07):
editors and storytellers throughthem, which I loved.
I've worked with the center forAsian American media, which was
such a learning lesson.
Like you know, I'm um mygrandparents were immigrants, so
I'm second generation and I waslike you know, initially, when
I started pitching business toto the center for Asian American
media, I was like they're nevergoing to hire me, like this

(53:27):
black woman, like they're goingto be like you don't get us and
then was like they're nevergonna hire me, like this black
one, like they're gonna be likeyou don't get us.
And then I found that theconversations were the same.
You know, they were like, yeah,the same conversations.
So, yeah, so I've been doingthat and I'm in the process of
kind of pivoting it.
I I think what I would like myplatform to develop into over
the next, you know, the nextphase of my company and my

(53:47):
career, is making this movementfrom from like mentorship.
I feel like we've done a reallygood job at mentoring.
I think that the, the, thecreative community, the black
creative community, thecommunity of color we mentor we
do a really good job ofmentoring, what I don't think we

(54:08):
do.
I think we are in a time rightnow, particularly with the
current climate, where we needto move to a patronage model,
meaning like putting people inplace to succeed, not just being
there to help them when they'resucceeding, but actually like
doing, because that's what thewhite boys do they decide.
You know, I look at myexperience at RCA.
They decided that he was goingto be the leader and they

(54:33):
surrounded him with everythingthat he needed to take that role
.
That's what patronage lookslike.
That's not mentoring.
That's what patronage lookslike.
So I don't know what thatpractically means for me, what

(54:53):
that practically means for me,but I feel like with every bone
in my body I know that patronagewas what made my career
successful.
It was Andre, you know, withall of the flaws of working at
all the crazy shit, it was Andrelooking at me and saying you're
groomed for greatness, youshould be a publicist.
And I'm like, okay, I'll giveit a shot.
Right, it was LA being like hey, you know what?
You're really good as apublicist, but I think you would
.
But I see that the corporateguys really gravitate to you,

(55:17):
you know cause they were allGermans.
My mother worked for Germanairline, all of her, her
professional people.
So, I could talk to the Germansand I could read German.
I could read German, so I wouldget like I would, I would.
They would get like memo, youknow.
Something would go around andit was in German and be like, oh
, we forgot to translate, andI'd be like, no, I can read it,
you know.
So they liked me, um and it.

(55:39):
It was all patronage Like ifyou think about, even if you
think about your own success.
there was some point wheresomebody just saw something in
you and they became your patron,right, and I don't think that
we as a as specifically as ablack community, in
entertainment and in, I wouldargue, in music, but even in

(56:00):
politics, everything, I don'tthink that we tap into patronage
enough.
I think that we feel that, youknow well, you know they've got
to pull themselves up and theygot to do and they got to prove,
and then I'll help them, right,because we're so conditioned to
think that we have to be, youknow, twice as good as everybody
, which we do, right, but butthere is also that place where

(56:22):
we can decide that someone'sgoing to be our next leader.
That's what happened with Obama.
I, like I've always shared thatum, I've shared this story many
times with people that obama'ssuccess was almost the result of
.
I mean, there was patronage,but he went to.
He came to new york I'll neverforget this.
Uh, my mom again, everybody.
She moved to political circles.
He came to new york to kiss thering for all of the black

(56:45):
politicians to say I want to runfor president and they told him
not to those all, all thoselike Charlie.
Rangles.
Hillary and all that, DavidJenkins.
All that they told him, itwasn't his turn.
Do you know who they told him?
Do you know?
Did you ever know, like who?
They said whose turn it was?
David Patterson, who's on toDavid Patterson?

(57:05):
Right, it was one of hisgovernors and they were like no,
so it's his turn exactly it'shis turn, because they never
believed that they could elect apresident.
So they were trying to putpeople, they were trying to
amass power, but they neverbelieved in a black president,

(57:27):
and I've always felt reallystrongly that what the the?
The beauty of Barack Obamabeing elected and I went to a
couple of fundraisers for himthe beauty of it was that he
always knew he could bepresident and the people that
supported him knew that he couldbe president and so he didn't

(57:51):
need those other people.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
In my opinion, that's what's happening now with
Mondami in New York.
He didn't go through thosepeople the usual preachers and
politicians and all those guysbut he didn't go through any of
those guys and him and his crewChe Osei Reggie's son and his
crew, che Osei Reggie's son andhis crew they're like, nah, he
could be the mayor, he could bethe mayor he's not kissing the

(58:17):
rings and they're like that'swhere they're pissed, because
they're like if he gets in, hedon't owe us no favors.
He's not beholden, so now, whatare you going?
To do that's right.
He ain't got to come back.
And's right, because you didthis, I'm gonna do this.
He don't have that on his back.
So it's a very similar thingwe're seeing, and I think we're
gonna see that kind of repeatitself moving forward before we

(58:40):
wrap up but that's what we did.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
But I just have to say that that's what we did in
the music business in the 90s.
That was patronage.
Those boutique labels, thoselike the faces and the depth.
They decided to put money in aplace that they didn't
understand necessarily andbecause they knew that there was
an upside, I always I wanted.
I was having this conversationwith my son recently and I was

(59:05):
like you have to understand thatwhen I was in the music
business, when I was starting mycareer, record labels and
distribution labels sold littleshiny discs.
They didn't give a shit whatwas on them, they just sold
little shiny discs.
And the reason that thecollapse of it was like and you
think about the margin on alittle shiny disc that cost like
a dollar 25 to make.

(59:25):
That was wholesale for 6.99,retail for sometimes 15, you
know, from 9.99 to retail forsometimes $15, you know, from
$9.99 to $15.
I was like those margins werethere when that became a file
and you no longer controlled themedium.
That was the demise of themusic business.
That's why you don't haveartist development anymore.
That's why you don't have, youknow, breakthrough artists.

(59:47):
That's why you have peoplechasing TikTok numbers, you know
, and signing somebody based onSoundCloud and stuff like that,
because you don't have theability to have that patronage.
You don't have, you know, TLCmade out as possible.
Right, you don't have thatanymore because you don't have
those margins.

(01:00:07):
You don't have the money's notthere anymore.
But I do believe that thatmindset in our community we've
gotten.
We got complacent because wethought that we were doing okay,
Right.
And this current climate madeit a hundred percent clear we
are not.
We are vulnerable, Right.

(01:00:27):
So I'm really, so I'm reallyinterested in that commitment to
patronage, in that commitmentto creating vehicles for other
people to succeed beyondmentorship, right when there's
money on the table.
So I don't know what that lookslike.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
You're right, mentorship doesn't always mean
cash.
It means time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Mentorship means somebody you guys want to talk
to.

Speaker 3 (01:00:52):
That's cool and that's valuable, but, like you
said, if there's no cash behindit, it kind of runs its course
pretty quickly.
You know what I'm saying?
It's kind of like eh yeah but Idon't know.
But my kind is jammed up andtalking to this person over a
cup of coffee is not reallyhelping that.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Exactly Before we not really helping.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
that you know, I mean um, exactly before we wrap up,
um two of your favorite artistsoh, that's easy.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
My absolute, like every day that I miss, is miguel
.
I miss miguel.
I love Miguel, um and um, myfavorite artist to work with.

Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Usher and my favorite artist is a person Okay, t-boz.
Okay, I love that, I love mesome T-Boz, but I always, I
always struggled because I feltlike I couldn't be a real friend
to her because my role, but Ialways loved her.
I felt like I couldn't be areal friend to her because my
role, but I always loved her,she was she's just dope.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Tell me cause you're about to experience it Um two of
your favorite places inMartha's Vineyard.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
All right, let me see , I'm not going to get you.

Speaker 3 (01:02:10):
She might not say it because she don't want your
niggas over there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Oh really, oh damn, I shouldn't have.
All right, I'm not going to getyou.
Well, number one is my house.
You know I'm a homebody, myhouse, I'm happy to be up in my
house and, um, there's arestaurant called guard east
that nobody goes to.
This is like I should gatekeepit.
That I want.
Like a lot of people tend notto go there because they don't

(01:02:34):
think there's parking, becausewhere the restaurant is there's
only like four parking spaces.
But you actually park acrossthe street and it's like right
on the water and you can haveoysters and drinks, and so
that's become a place that welike to kind of post up and you
know, it's basically like we'regonna be, there for like three,
four hours just chilling, yeah,hanging out, um, and then my

(01:02:56):
other one would be honestly anyfriend that's, that's what house
porch like.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
It's just, it's the house, it's the house, yeah
that's what it is, the househopping.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
You know, it is it porch?
It's the house hopping.
Yeah, that's what it is, it'sthe house hopping?

Speaker 3 (01:03:06):
It is, it's the house hopping.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
It's the house hopping and there's a lot of
politics to house hopping youdon't just walk up on somebody's
porch.
You stand a respectabledistance back until you are
invited to ascend to the porch.

Speaker 3 (01:03:19):
You don't go and keep a towel on your head.
You got to be invited or bewith somebody invited and you
get properly introduced andpeople are going to ask you
where you went to school.
They're going to ask you thesethings.
Don't be offended, it just iswhat it is.

Speaker 2 (01:03:36):
And they're not going to ask you what you do.
That's the nuance.
They don't want to know whatyou do.
They want to know where youcame from and how you got here.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
You're doing something, so we don't really
need to kind of figure that partout.
We'll get to that maybe anothertime.
We don't want to figure out howyou got here, how did you get
here?
But who are your people?
It's very interesting now withthe venue because of you know,
obviously a few years ago, withthe publicity of the Obamas
going every summer, and now youhave this year, you had the
series Forever and you know, inthe Ralph Lauren collection.

(01:04:10):
So now it's like a newspotlight on the vineyard, you
know, because it was all and sosome of the people were like, oh
, the vineyard is like and Ihate to sound like a dickhead,
I'm like yo, it's been going onfor like 60 years, bro, you're
kind of late.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
More than that.
It's like 200 years.
It's like multi-generational.
It's like multi-generational.
It's 100 years.
It's at least 100 years.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
You're kind of late and that's fine.
Yeah, you know, but just go upthere and, like I hope,
somebody's given the the newbiesfor lack of a better term these
lessons like what to do andwhat not to do, and it's not
about being bougie.
It's not that.
There's a kind of a protocol toit.
You know, it's all you know, so.

Speaker 2 (01:04:55):
Yeah, most people.
What I find is like most peoplebecause we've suddenly become
the old school people, which Ithink is hilarious, because I
don't feel that way.
Um, I still like we bought ahouse that belonged to another
family and there's a full onlike three generations of people
who, if they're like, where areyou living at?
I'm like we live in the Pope'shouse, and they're like oh, I

(01:05:18):
know that house.
I used to go there when I was akid.
So it's really funny becauseeven at this point, we're still
talking to people who livedthere 20 years ago.
But the thing about thevineyard what happens is people
get on the island and either youimmediately get it and you're
like oh, this is for me, or youdon't, and you're like what's

(01:05:38):
the hype?
I know plenty of people whothink it's a slum.

Speaker 3 (01:05:42):
They're just like there are no good hotels,
there's not a lot, it's notgoing to be a W.

Speaker 2 (01:05:45):
It's hilarious.
It's not for that, no, no.
And but what's happening that'scrazy is all these West coast
people, because of the filmfestival, like to your, like,
take a step back even further.
It's on the forever trackbecause it, because of the film
festival, it kind of seeped intothat creative community.
And you have.
I believe, Canyon Barris has ahouse there now, like you see

(01:06:09):
all of these like Hollywoodpeople who are coming there.
But let me tell you how now theTexas people are coming there.
Somebody built an East Shop.
They built a full-on somebody.
I don't know if this is true,but my friend told me that
they're from Sugar Land and theybuilt a Sugarland texas house.

(01:06:29):
In the middle of east top, withall these quaint new england
cottages, is this gigantic housewith two-story doors and glass
and the windows are tinted andyou're like it's so texas, it's
really funny.
So there's like a wholedifferent, like the wet, where
it used to just really be eastcoast.
I've met so many people fromthe West coast who came for the
film festival, fell in love,figured it out.

(01:06:49):
But yeah, it is really it's aspecial place.
It's really there's nothing likeit.

Speaker 3 (01:06:57):
I hope you enjoyed it .
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
This is fun.
You're the best.
You're the best I did.
I really enjoyed it and I feellike you know you're also.
You're really good at this andjust thank you it's just
wonderful, it was reallywonderful.
I've never really threaded the,I've never thought about the
threads of my career and youknow it's just like just keep

(01:07:22):
your head down.

Speaker 3 (01:07:25):
Just shutting up.
Like I listen to the podcastand I hate the podcast hosts
that don't shut up or alwaysuh-huh like, like dude, just
shut up.
Like we're here, we want tohear what, the, what, the what
the guest has to say.
We don't need exactly what youmean just shut up, let them talk
, that's we got them there and alot of people don't do that,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
I will.
I will literally turn off thepodcast when they do that let
the person talk, but thank youand I love.
I love one of the things I loveabout what you're doing.
I just have to say this too,that one of the things I love
about what you're doing.
I just have to say this too,that one of the things I love
about what you're doing is, youknow, yes, there are artists,
but, like, if you look at, if Ilook at my career, and I think

(01:08:10):
of all the artists whose lives Itouched and impacted, like that
it's so incredible to be a partof that community and to have
had the opportunity to changepeople's lives.
And my check-in with newartists was always um, how's the
airport?
That was always my measure.
I'd be like how's the airport?
And they used to always like Iwould never explain.
I would just be like how's theairport?

(01:08:30):
And they'd be like why do youalways ask me that?
I remember asking Chris that Iwas like what's the airport?
Like, how's the airport?
I can't even walk through theairport sky caps.

Speaker 3 (01:08:51):
The lady at Annie's presser was like oh my god, you
know you get the job.
You know you get the jobexactly.

Speaker 2 (01:09:01):
I did my job.
That's how I know I did my job,and when you can't walk to the
airport, I am a success.
So but thank you, jeff, andthank you for all of the support
over the years as well.
You've been a wonderful friendand love you to pieces.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
I love you too, lisa.
You can catch Mixed andMastered on Apple Podcasts,
spotify, iHeart or wherever youget your podcasts.
Hit that follow button, leave areview and tell a friend.
I'm your host, jeffrey Sledge.
Mixed and Mastered is producedand distributed by Merrick
Studios.