Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
From the WA and M Studio onthe campus of Florida A and M University.
This is Mary Forum Radio, aweekly conversation on the education and research
of medical marijuana being conducted at them. Hi. I'm Heidi Otway, your
host for this conversation on cannabis virtualform, brought to you by the Medical
Marijuana Education and Research Initiative at Floridaand M University. In this conversation,
(00:26):
we're talking about marijuana reclassification and thepotential impact on workplace drug testing. So
let's talk and learn about this subjectwith our guests. Mark Maxim is a
leader in the drug and alcohol testingindustry for nearly thirty years. He gained
extensive expertise and experience in the fieldof drug and alcohol screening and compliance.
(00:51):
Mark, Welcome to the forum.Tell us more about yourself. Thank you
so much for having me. It'sa pleasure to be here. I am
a very honored to be able tojoin today and talk about today's topic.
I got my start in drug andalcohol testing out of law enforcement, and
twenty eight years ago I began myjourney in this field, learning every aspect
(01:15):
that this industry has to provide fromworkplace testing including the private sector as well,
working with rehabilitation facilities, parent networks, in addition to the courts and
legal system as well besides the employmentindustry. So it's been an absolute joy
(01:38):
to provide and give back what I'velearned and what I continue to learn today
to be that individual that has someknowledge around drug testing and alcohol testing and
how it relates to almost anyone inour wonderful country. Yeah, well,
Mark, thank you for being here. I'm so looking for to this conversation.
(02:00):
To everyone joining us on this liveprogram, please share posts and tag
a friend on Facebook to have themjoin this conversation. If you're on YouTube,
share the links so others can joinus as well. During the forum,
we want you to send us yourquestions in the comment box and we'll
do our best to have our gueststo answer them. We also want you
(02:20):
to tell us what you think aboutthis forum by completing the survey that will
be posted in the comments on YouTubeand Facebook. After the live program,
your name will be entered into adrawing on July eleventh, twenty twenty four
to win a one hundred dollars giftcard provided by one of Mary's partners.
Now, let's start this conversation oncannabis. So, Mark, I just
(02:43):
want to plant the flag and findout from you when and why do employers
conduct drug testing of their employees.Sure, so you know, drug testing
is something that dates back to asfar back as the nineteen eighties when President
Ronald Reagan signed the Executive Order creatingthe Drug Free Workplace Act of nineteen eighty
(03:09):
eight, and that was really wheredrug testing kind of was born, so
to speak. And employers choose todo this for a lot of various reasons.
The most important reason is safety,the need and desire to provide a
safe work environment for their valuable assetand that is their employees. But in
(03:35):
addition to that, they also wantedto have productive and high performance individuals that
are drug free. They also doit for insurance benefits. In some cases
they do it to avoid accidents andinjuries and the worker's compensation claims that are
(03:57):
seen from it. There are countlessstudies out there that show, you know,
workers compensation costs increasing and you know, approximately forty four thousand dollars per
medically consulted injuries are seen. Andyou know that's just one where you have
everything eighty five thousand dollars for motorvehicle crashes. So I think, you
(04:24):
know, in a real bigger broadperspective, employers really want to protect against
those things, and so that's reallywhat brought it about. But more importantly,
those employers that work in the transportationsector are required to do it by
federal regulation, and so they havea requirement to conduct testing on the various
(04:48):
different types and when to test andwhat to do so, and that was
by executive order that came down whereit was actually mandated by the presidential order
back at that time. So that'sreally a couple of different reasons why employers
do what they do in the drugtesting arena. So what prompted, well,
(05:12):
what prompted the need, you know, the federal law regarding drug testing
for work workplaces? Sure, Soyou know, back in the nineteen eighties,
we experienced as a country in ourtransportation sector two very prominently well remembered
(05:34):
incidents of derailed subway and a derailedAmtrak train where both of the operators were
under the influence of marijuana. Andso out of those hugely accidents that involved
(05:54):
fatalities, it's what led the actualgovernment back at that time to create the
executive Order and get the ball rolling, which then of course came about the
Omnibus Transportation Employment Act as well knownas OTETA, that came out in nineteen
ninety one, which is really wherewe got our start for the transportation industry
(06:19):
as a whole, and the creationof the regulations and what's required of any
employer that works in the transportation sectorand what they're required to do in order
to maintain compliance, but more importantlyto try and protect public safety. Yeah,
(06:39):
so it's my understanding that these typesof jobs are called safety sensitive.
What other industries, well, ifyou can explain that, but then also
what other industries are also having tocomply with through testing because of the safety
issues. Sure, so you know, we have many different sectors that comply
(07:00):
for various reasons. So obviously wehave the Department of Health and Human Services,
which is what kind of oversees theprogram, and the Department of Transportation
then follows along with the actual regulatorypart. So the DHHS handles and overseas
(07:23):
with the National Certified Laboratory Program forcertifying laboratories, and the Department of Transportation
of course follows a lot of DHHSin some similarities but most of the different
modes, of course have some slightvariations in their actual protocols and regulatory compliance.
(07:48):
But as far as a safety sensitiveposition is concerned, it is really
a job that would impact public safety, such as pilots flying the airplanes,
to air traffic controllers, school busdrivers, people working on pipelines and with
(08:11):
hazardous materials, people in mass transitsuch as the city buses in our cities
or subways, and or government fundedprograms for the Federal Transit Administration, as
well as our trains, and thenof course all of the semis we see
up and down the highways transporting thefreight to and from destinations. Those are
(08:35):
all examples of safety sensitive positions withinthe Department of Transportation purview. Outside of
that, you also have employers thatwill have individuals in safety sensitive functions that
such maybe fit the definition even morein that if they're operating a forklift,
(09:03):
if they're working on a manufacturing linewhere they could actually cause injury to themselves
or others. So these are allexamples of safety sensitive defined positions which then
lead to what the requirements come toplay, and you have to worry about
(09:24):
the state laws as well. Inaddition to the federal requirements for all of
the federal employed individuals. But youalso have to consider the state that you're
in and does that state have arequirement or do you have a government contract
that requires you to have a drugtesting program. So that's really various areas
(09:48):
that you really look at, andsome state laws have clearly defined what a
safety sensitive position is, so itreally becomes important for us to make sure
that we do the research. Yeah, so what are the most common ways
that there are drug tests there?You know, drugs are there's drug testing
for those positions, So what arethe common types of drug testing for sure?
(10:11):
So you know, currently today themost common is a urine drug screen,
but in addition to that, there'salso the ability to test for drugs
in oral fluid so saliva, aswell as hair testing. There is also
the ability to test for drugs witha sweat patch, fingernail testing. So
(10:35):
there's many different methods in where you'reable to detect drugs in an individual based
on any of those testing type methodologies, But for the Department of Transportation today,
the only one that is approved isurine. We are soon going to
(10:58):
see oral fluid as soon as thedevice and the two laboratories get certified.
Oral fluid will then become a partof that as an option for the Department
of Transportation covered employers. Now,when we get into what we call the
non transportation or we call it thenon DOT area, this is those employers
(11:22):
that have forklift operators or manufacturing facilities. But you can also see it in
retail and almost every industry across thecountry. That an employer decides they want
to have a program, so theymay use any of the other methodologies that
I mentioned, because those methodologies ofcourse have a laboratory that is certified and
(11:50):
is able to test those samples forthose employers and provide them with a result.
Yeah. So in these safety sensitivejobs, what is the cadence of
the drug testing of those employees?Sure, so it always starts off with
a pre employment drug test, sothe negative pre employment drug test is needed
(12:15):
before the actual individual begins to performthat safety sensitive function. From there,
then the depending on which mode oftransportation you're working in, the individual will
go into a random testing pool andbased on each of the modes, there
(12:39):
is a requirement for how often thetesting must be conducted, so randomly I
use the example with the trucking industry. So this industry tests those drivers fifty
percent of them per year for drugs, for alcohol, and each of the
(13:01):
modes may be a little different.So but for the purposes with you know,
the trucks and the school buses,those folks, those drivers go into
a pool and fifty percent of themare tested annually, so that cadence really
comes where we do it every quarter, So every three months, there's a
(13:22):
selection that occurs and that employers providedwith the list of individuals that need to
be tested and they will then comply. Now, in addition to that,
the employer also has responsibility with regardsto post accident testing, So whenever there
happens to be an accident defined bythe regulation for that mode, they will
(13:46):
then be required to do drug andalcohol testing. There's also reasonable suspicion,
so employers have their supervisors trained onthe signs and symptoms and being able to
determine when we're going to request atest. And then lastly, for individuals
(14:07):
that do test positive, we thenhave the final two categories which are returned
to duty. This is done afteran individual goes through counseling and then we
have follow up testing, which isthat checks and balance, if you will,
on the individual for a period oftime to ensure that they are complying
(14:33):
with the actual recommendations of the substanceabuse professional. So that's really the cadence
on how it really works within theDepartment of Transportation, and it's almost very
similar, if not the same,in the non transportation sector. Employers still
will choose to do all of thetypes of testing that they wish to do
(14:58):
based on company policy they've written,and they just may have a different percentage
of how many they're going to testwhen they're doing randoms. Okay, I
want to go back to the signsand symptoms, sure, sure, absolutely,
I want to know what are thesigns that someone may be under the
(15:18):
influence of cannabis when they're on thejob. Sure, So you know it.
This one has really become an interestingtopic because there's many different things that
a person can look for. Butwhen we look for what we call reasonable
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suspicion, we look at physical,behavioral, and performance indicators. So there's
three different areas that we train supervisorsto look for. So physically, we
may see individuals who will have dilatedpupils, they will have potentially bloodshot eyes,
(16:03):
they could have drooping of the eyes, there could be the actual appearance
that an individual is very sleepy ortired. But you could also have the
opposite effect because in the higher potencymarijuana, there are studies that are clearly
(16:25):
showing that high potency sativa from theplant really causes individuals to be amped up.
So instead of tired, they maybe amped up. They will experience
hallucinations and other types of experiences verysimilar to PCP, so you'll see that
(16:49):
happening as well. Well. Well, right now, we all know that
the federal government is going through theprocess of reclassifying marijuana. So I'm just
curious to know what are the concernsthat this possible rescheduling of marijuana could have
on safety sensitive you know, employersas well as their employees and others that
(17:15):
require drug testing for safety. Sure. Yeah, so you know, in
today's environment, the rescheduling or reclassificationthat was announced back in May, the
actual effects of that really are afew Okay, first and foremost, it's
(17:38):
it's the first step on a wholelist of what drug will they possibly want
to reschedule or legalize next, Soit's it's the first step for us,
but for the transportations sector, withthe language that it's currently written, there's
(18:04):
no language in there that speaks abouta safety carve out and the need to
protect safety. So what that simplymeans is today the Department of Transportation is
only allowed to test for Schedule oneand Schedule two illegal drugs. Reclassifying to
(18:29):
Schedule three will essentially make it aprescription and so therefore the DOT will not
be allowed to drug test for marijuana. And so what that simply means is
that school bus drivers will be allowedto smoke marijuana before they get on the
(18:55):
bus and start driving the kids toschool, and the employer will not be
allowed to test them. And Markgoing to ask you a follow up just
to that point right there with that, so you know, every state is
different. So here in Florida wehave medical marijuana, recreational adult use is
illegal what and in other states it'sthe same. So would this be for
(19:18):
not you know, medical marijuana andrecreational depending on what state you live in.
Well, we all know that marijuanais still considered federally illegal, right
right. Rescheduling it to a Schedulethree essentially is going to cause the individual
(19:38):
to have to have a valid prescription. Okay for me exactly, Florida,
you have to have a medical marijuanacard and you have to be recommended by
a physician. So right and correct. And so what that really means is
is that if an employer, okay, were to drug test for marijuana under
(20:07):
Schedule three, the medical review officerwho reviews the results and talks to the
donor, would then validate the prescriptionand make the test negative instead of positive,
and therefore employers would have no knowledgethat the individual is using that substance,
(20:30):
okay, and would Florida had tochange their laws if they wanted.
I'm just curious if Florida could dosomething different to change that. Well,
but I'm just curious. Yeah,each state, each state has some varying
different laws that they've written in andso it's entirely possible that the states may
(20:51):
want to go back and reevaluate theircurrent laws and what changes do they maybe
want to make to them, andwhat requirements do they want to put within
that state. So it could verywell be that some of the states will
all of a sudden go well,if there's not going to be a safety
(21:11):
carve out on the federal level.We're going to go after it on the
state level and we're going to dothis and we're going to enact that.
So that's entirely possible. It couldentirely happen. I think it's a matter
that we're all in this wait andsee phase. So tell me more about
(21:33):
the carve out that they could doat the federal level. Sure, So
you know, there's a couple ofdifferent options. I mean, obviously,
on the federal level, they couldenact a presidential order, an executive order
placing a safety carve out, whichwould then allow for the Department of Transportation
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to continue to test for marijuana,and that order could very easily happen.
Otherwise, what would have to happenis there would have to be the presenting
of a bill, so a legislativeprocess, and a bill would have to
(22:18):
be proposed, and it would thenhave to pass through the Senate and the
House before it would become law.So there's kind of a couple of different
ways that they could certainly look todo this, and we as resources and
advocates for this industry that we workin, are definitely wanting to be part
(22:42):
of those conversations, some people arewell informed, so that way we can
make the best decisions for our actualpublic. Okay, well, we have
a question here from Tracy Schell whichaligns with this converse we're having here.
So it says, with this example, don't bus drivers and truck drivers have
(23:04):
a CDL and that's a commercials driver'slicense that would also put some additional stipulations
on their approval for a medical marijuana. Currently, active CTAs can't be approved
for medical marijuana in Florida. Socurrently today, yes, the Department of
Transportation does not recognize medical marijuana cards, does not recognize marijuana on the state
(23:30):
level, and there is actually guidanceon that. However, once this rescheduling
were to go through with no safetycarve out, language that would be removed
and it would then allow for anyonean airline pilot, a truck driver,
(23:59):
Amtrak train operator, school bus driver, charter bus driver, they would all
be then given pretty much a greenticket to use marijuana, and the employer
will not be allowed to test themwithout a safety carve out or some kind
of legislation or executive order, wewould go backwards. So Mark, what
(24:23):
could employers decide for their own legallylegal liabilities to say I'm going to continue
to do the drug testing whether ornot there's a carve out, whether there
is or not a car out atthe five absolutely, so you know,
barring whatever happens with the rescheduling.Okay, whether you're for it or against
(24:47):
it, that's not the topic here. It really doesn't matter, okay.
But what does matter is that theemployer's right to drug tests is still in
play. Okay. We would hopethat there's never going to be a push
to cancel drug testing altogether. ButI think that employers have this liability and
(25:15):
this risk that they want to protect, and so an employer could in fact
rewrite their company policy and their actualstandards that they wish to have as an
employer, and so they could thenof course afford themselves the ability to do
(25:37):
that. It would just not beon the federal level. So we have
a question here about whether CDO driversare allowed prescriptions for opiates, and I'd
be curious to know where opiates falloff the federal schedule for this question right
here as sure, great question.Yes, currently today CDL drivers do and
(25:57):
are allowed to receive a prescription foropioids. Okay. And when we talk
about opioids, we're talking about codeineand morphine as well as hydro codone,
hydromorphone, oxycodone, and oxymorphone.So some folks recognize oxycodone being an opioid
(26:21):
that is prescribed, but hydromorphone isbetter referred to as percocet, so people
understand, you know, the genericterm percocet actually falls into that category for
hydro hydromorphone and hydro codone. Butwhen those drivers have those prescriptions, they
(26:45):
are they are of course told thatthey shouldn't be driving, okay. And
so companies may have a policy thatsays, if you are taking one of
the opioid prescriptions that could cause youto not perform safely, you must notify
(27:07):
us, okay. The employer isnot saying that we want to know all
your prescriptions, okay, because nowwe're invading someone's privacy okay, which the
employer does not want to do.But what the employer does want to do
is protect safety. And there's anadditional process that during the medical review process
(27:33):
with the doctor, if the doctordeems that the individual is taking an opioid
prescription, they may notify the employercalling it a negative. So the employer
doesn't know about the prescription, butthey will put a note with a safety
(27:55):
concern and they will recommend that theemployer have the employee evaluated for what is
called fitness for duty. And sothose things are then in place to again
protect safety should someone be taking theprescription. It's entirely possible that the employer
(28:15):
will never know about the prescription,but there will be a recommendation for a
fit for duty evaluation to be doneto ensure that that individual will be able
to perform their job safely. Yeah, So, Mark, are there is
there any research out there regarding thetesting of cannabis in one's system for these
(28:38):
safety secretive positions when it comes toyou know, how much is in them,
how impaired they may be. Socurrently today there is no test for
impairment. It doesn't exist. Thescience is just not there, okay,
because drugs affect individuals differently for alot of various reasons. How potent is
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the cannabis, how much did theperson consume over what period of time did
they consume it? What is theindividual's body makeup, their weight, their
metabolism, and all of these thingstake into consideration. But there are some
(29:26):
research studies that exist. There's oneout by the University of Sydney that actually,
yes, Sydney, Australia. Yes, they actually did a research study
just recently and they were able toidentify cognitive impairment can be seen from cannabis
(29:51):
use for four to six hours.Now, obviously if individuals are using more
and using more often, that cognitiveimpairment can be seen for even longer periods
of time, you know, morethan the four to six hour period,
(30:11):
but typically you know, for yourinfrequent users. The study actually showed that
individuals had cognitive impairment. And whenwe talk about cognitive impairment, that's having
the ability to you know, docertain functions. So obviously driving a vehicle,
you know, would definitely fall intothat. And so impairment was still
(30:33):
seen and was still there. Andthere's countless other studies and research that's out
there around this topic as well.There was a recent survey done out of
California where they interviewed five hundred individualsabout using cannabis in the workplace and they
(30:56):
were able to discover that fifty threepercent we're using daily at or before going
to work. Wow, eighty sixpercent of those individuals were either smoking it
or vaping it, and forty eightpercent of those surveyed stated that they use
(31:21):
cannabis on their break at work.So we see these statistics and see these
surveys, and they're concerning for employersand the employer population. Because just recently
we had the Senior Human Resource ManagementConference. The annual conference was held in
(31:48):
Chicago now just finished up yesterday,and during one of the presentations, they
were interviewing CEOs on leadership and whatchallenges CEO's face and the top three.
Okay, the number one concern thatCEOs had was hiring and recruiting qualified talent.
(32:17):
The second reason was turnover and recruitmentand absenteeism. But the third reason
the CEOs have been dealing with andstressing was employee substance use. Interesting,
(32:40):
So it was very interesting. Sothere's a lot of data out there that
exists, and it's a matter thatindividuals become informed by looking at that data
so they better understand what we're dealingwith when we talk about cannabis. Well,
that's interesting. That's a great segueinto my followup question on that subject
(33:00):
is what are organizations in the drugtesting industry, you know, the associations
like the one you're that you're elective. What are you all doing to position
yourself as a resource to companies asthe US goes through this rescheduling process,
you know, to help them prepare. Absolutely, so we are, you
(33:21):
know, obviously we're trying to simplybe out there, and we're out here
to educate and be that resource toindividuals who want to be part of the
conversation. We also are advocates.We want to advocate, and so we
(33:44):
advocate through advocacy and visiting with peoplein Washington, d C. Educating them,
letting them know that we are here. And with our association, we
like strategy partnerships and work with otherorganizations such as the Smart Approaches to Marijuana
(34:07):
Network, the Parent Action Network,the Substance Abuse Program Professionals Administration Association Excuse
me. SAPPA is another industry associationlike the National Drug and Alcohol Screening Association,
and we really just want to beout there and make sure that everyone's
(34:30):
voice is heard. We want tomake sure that we're providing actual, good
data and good research around this areaso individuals have a full understanding of what
this looks like, yeah, yeah, So the are you is your industry
(34:52):
thinking about how you may be impactedby the rescheduling or the reclassification of marijuana.
What does that look like? Absolutely? You know, we we truly
believe that, you know, it'sgoing to turn our industry upside down because
it's going to change how policies willneed to be written, it's going to
(35:14):
change how the testing may be done, if at all sometime And it really
is, as a you know,stated earlier, it's actually step one in
what could be next and what drugwill be next? Is someone going to
(35:37):
try and say that cocaine is goodfor certain things and it should be made
medically okay? And which other drugs? So I think that, you know,
we're at the start of something andwe're at a pivotal part in our
country that we need to be outthere and we need to be talking about
(36:00):
this and we need to really extendto everyone that concerns that do exist that
individuals may not be hearing about.And that's really what we're trying to do.
Yeah, So do you have anyclosing thoughts for our listeners and viewers
(36:20):
of the program regarding drug testing formarijuana and the potential reclassification to a less
danger drug. I would just simplysay, do your research. Be open
to conversation. Rather than being insome instances closed minded, be open minded.
(36:50):
Be open to listening and learning andunderstanding what it is that's before us.
Whether you're for something or against something, that is your right, but
make sure that you understand what thatconsequence might look like. And by doing
(37:12):
that, go out and research.Be curious, ask questions, demand answers
so you have a better understanding,and make sure that your voice is heard.
Get out there and have your voiceheard, because each and every one
of us matter. Mark, thankyou so much for being a guest on
(37:34):
this Conversations on Cannabis virtual form,brought to you by the Medical Marijuana Education
and Research Initiative at Florida and MUniversity. Thank you to everyone watching this
program. Tell us what you thinkabout this form by completing the survey that
will be posted in the comment boxeson YouTube and Facebook after this live program.
If you complete the survey, yourname will be entered into a drawing
(37:57):
on July eleventh, twenty four toan a one hundred dollars gift card provided
by one of Mary's partners. Wealso want to encourage you to go to
the Florida Department of Health Office ofMedical Marijuana Use website to learn how to
obtain a legal medical marijuana card inthe state of Florida. We also encourage
you to go to the Florida andM University's merrywebsite to learn more about this
(38:20):
initiative, its educational programs, andadditional information about cannabis use in Florida.
Thanks everyone. The views and opinionsof our invited guests are not necessarily the
views and opinions of Florida Agricultural andMechanical University or the Medical Marijuana Education and
Research Initiative.
From the WA and M Studio onthe campus of Florida A and M University.
This is Mary Forum Radio, aweekly conversation on the education and research
of medical marijuana being conducted at them. Hi. I'm Heidi Otway, your
host for this conversation on cannabis virtualform, brought to you by the Medical
Marijuana Education and Research Initiative at Floridaand M University. In this conversation,
(00:26):
we're talking about marijuana reclassification and thepotential impact on workplace drug testing. So
let's talk and learn about this subjectwith our guests. Mark Maxim is a
leader in the drug and alcohol testingindustry for nearly thirty years. He gained
extensive expertise and experience in the fieldof drug and alcohol screening and compliance.
(00:51):
Mark, Welcome to the forum.Tell us more about yourself. Thank you
so much for having me. It'sa pleasure to be here. I am
a very honored to be able tojoin today and talk about today's topic.
I got my start in drug andalcohol testing out of law enforcement, and
twenty eight years ago I began myjourney in this field, learning every aspect
(01:15):
that this industry has to provide fromworkplace testing including the private sector as well,
working with rehabilitation facilities, parent networks, in addition to the courts and
legal system as well besides the employmentindustry. So it's been an absolute joy
(01:38):
to provide and give back what I'velearned and what I continue to learn today
to be that individual that has someknowledge around drug testing and alcohol testing and
how it relates to almost anyone inour wonderful country. Yeah, well,
Mark, thank you for being here. I'm so looking for to this conversation.
(02:00):
To everyone joining us on this liveprogram, please share posts and tag
a friend on Facebook to have themjoin this conversation. If you're on YouTube,
share the links so others can joinus as well. During the forum,
we want you to send us yourquestions in the comment box and we'll
do our best to have our gueststo answer them. We also want you
(02:20):
to tell us what you think aboutthis forum by completing the survey that will
be posted in the comments on YouTubeand Facebook. After the live program,
your name will be entered into adrawing on July eleventh, twenty twenty four
to win a one hundred dollars giftcard provided by one of Mary's partners.
Now, let's start this conversation oncannabis. So, Mark, I just
(02:43):
want to plant the flag and findout from you when and why do employers
conduct drug testing of their employees.Sure, so you know, drug testing
is something that dates back to asfar back as the nineteen eighties when President
Ronald Reagan signed the Executive Order creatingthe Drug Free Workplace Act of nineteen eighty
(03:09):
eight, and that was really wheredrug testing kind of was born, so
to speak. And employers choose todo this for a lot of various reasons.
The most important reason is safety,the need and desire to provide a
safe work environment for their valuable assetand that is their employees. But in
(03:35):
addition to that, they also wantedto have productive and high performance individuals that
are drug free. They also doit for insurance benefits. In some cases
they do it to avoid accidents andinjuries and the worker's compensation claims that are
(03:57):
seen from it. There are countlessstudies out there that show, you know,
workers compensation costs increasing and you know, approximately forty four thousand dollars per
medically consulted injuries are seen. Andyou know that's just one where you have
everything eighty five thousand dollars for motorvehicle crashes. So I think, you
(04:24):
know, in a real bigger broadperspective, employers really want to protect against
those things, and so that's reallywhat brought it about. But more importantly,
those employers that work in the transportationsector are required to do it by
federal regulation, and so they havea requirement to conduct testing on the various
(04:48):
different types and when to test andwhat to do so, and that was
by executive order that came down whereit was actually mandated by the presidential order
back at that time. So that'sreally a couple of different reasons why employers
do what they do in the drugtesting arena. So what prompted, well,
(05:12):
what prompted the need, you know, the federal law regarding drug testing
for work workplaces? Sure, Soyou know, back in the nineteen eighties,
we experienced as a country in ourtransportation sector two very prominently well remembered
(05:34):
incidents of derailed subway and a derailedAmtrak train where both of the operators were
under the influence of marijuana. Andso out of those hugely accidents that involved
(05:54):
fatalities, it's what led the actualgovernment back at that time to create the
executive Order and get the ball rolling, which then of course came about the
Omnibus Transportation Employment Act as well knownas OTETA, that came out in nineteen
ninety one, which is really wherewe got our start for the transportation industry
(06:19):
as a whole, and the creationof the regulations and what's required of any
employer that works in the transportation sectorand what they're required to do in order
to maintain compliance, but more importantlyto try and protect public safety. Yeah,
(06:39):
so it's my understanding that these typesof jobs are called safety sensitive.
What other industries, well, ifyou can explain that, but then also
what other industries are also having tocomply with through testing because of the safety
issues. Sure, so you know, we have many different sectors that comply
(07:00):
for various reasons. So obviously wehave the Department of Health and Human Services,
which is what kind of oversees theprogram, and the Department of Transportation
then follows along with the actual regulatorypart. So the DHHS handles and overseas
(07:23):
with the National Certified Laboratory Program forcertifying laboratories, and the Department of Transportation
of course follows a lot of DHHSin some similarities but most of the different
modes, of course have some slightvariations in their actual protocols and regulatory compliance.
(07:48):
But as far as a safety sensitiveposition is concerned, it is really
a job that would impact public safety, such as pilots flying the airplanes,
to air traffic controllers, school busdrivers, people working on pipelines and with
(08:11):
hazardous materials, people in mass transitsuch as the city buses in our cities
or subways, and or government fundedprograms for the Federal Transit Administration, as
well as our trains, and thenof course all of the semis we see
up and down the highways transporting thefreight to and from destinations. Those are
(08:35):
all examples of safety sensitive positions withinthe Department of Transportation purview. Outside of
that, you also have employers thatwill have individuals in safety sensitive functions that
such maybe fit the definition even morein that if they're operating a forklift,
(09:03):
if they're working on a manufacturing linewhere they could actually cause injury to themselves
or others. So these are allexamples of safety sensitive defined positions which then
lead to what the requirements come toplay, and you have to worry about
(09:24):
the state laws as well. Inaddition to the federal requirements for all of
the federal employed individuals. But youalso have to consider the state that you're
in and does that state have arequirement or do you have a government contract
that requires you to have a drugtesting program. So that's really various areas
(09:48):
that you really look at, andsome state laws have clearly defined what a
safety sensitive position is, so itreally becomes important for us to make sure
that we do the research. Yeah, so what are the most common ways
that there are drug tests there?You know, drugs are there's drug testing
for those positions, So what arethe common types of drug testing for sure?
(10:11):
So you know, currently today themost common is a urine drug screen,
but in addition to that, there'salso the ability to test for drugs
in oral fluid so saliva, aswell as hair testing. There is also
the ability to test for drugs witha sweat patch, fingernail testing. So
(10:35):
there's many different methods in where you'reable to detect drugs in an individual based
on any of those testing type methodologies, But for the Department of Transportation today,
the only one that is approved isurine. We are soon going to
(10:58):
see oral fluid as soon as thedevice and the two laboratories get certified.
Oral fluid will then become a partof that as an option for the Department
of Transportation covered employers. Now,when we get into what we call the
non transportation or we call it thenon DOT area, this is those employers
(11:22):
that have forklift operators or manufacturing facilities. But you can also see it in
retail and almost every industry across thecountry. That an employer decides they want
to have a program, so theymay use any of the other methodologies that
I mentioned, because those methodologies ofcourse have a laboratory that is certified and
(11:50):
is able to test those samples forthose employers and provide them with a result.
Yeah. So in these safety sensitivejobs, what is the cadence of
the drug testing of those employees?Sure, so it always starts off with
a pre employment drug test, sothe negative pre employment drug test is needed
(12:15):
before the actual individual begins to performthat safety sensitive function. From there,
then the depending on which mode oftransportation you're working in, the individual will
go into a random testing pool andbased on each of the modes, there
(12:39):
is a requirement for how often thetesting must be conducted, so randomly I
use the example with the trucking industry. So this industry tests those drivers fifty
percent of them per year for drugs, for alcohol, and each of the
(13:01):
modes may be a little different.So but for the purposes with you know,
the trucks and the school buses,those folks, those drivers go into
a pool and fifty percent of themare tested annually, so that cadence really
comes where we do it every quarter, So every three months, there's a
(13:22):
selection that occurs and that employers providedwith the list of individuals that need to
be tested and they will then comply. Now, in addition to that,
the employer also has responsibility with regardsto post accident testing, So whenever there
happens to be an accident defined bythe regulation for that mode, they will
(13:46):
then be required to do drug andalcohol testing. There's also reasonable suspicion,
so employers have their supervisors trained onthe signs and symptoms and being able to
determine when we're going to request atest. And then lastly, for individuals
(14:07):
that do test positive, we thenhave the final two categories which are returned
to duty. This is done afteran individual goes through counseling and then we
have follow up testing, which isthat checks and balance, if you will,
on the individual for a period oftime to ensure that they are complying
(14:33):
with the actual recommendations of the substanceabuse professional. So that's really the cadence
on how it really works within theDepartment of Transportation, and it's almost very
similar, if not the same,in the non transportation sector. Employers still
will choose to do all of thetypes of testing that they wish to do
(14:58):
based on company policy they've written,and they just may have a different percentage
of how many they're going to testwhen they're doing randoms. Okay, I
want to go back to the signsand symptoms, sure, sure, absolutely,
I want to know what are thesigns that someone may be under the
(15:18):
influence of cannabis when they're on thejob. Sure, So you know it.
This one has really become an interestingtopic because there's many different things that
a person can look for. Butwhen we look for what we call reasonable
(15:39):
suspicion, we look at physical,behavioral, and performance indicators. So there's
three different areas that we train supervisorsto look for. So physically, we
may see individuals who will have dilatedpupils, they will have potentially bloodshot eyes,
(16:03):
they could have drooping of the eyes, there could be the actual appearance
that an individual is very sleepy ortired. But you could also have the
opposite effect because in the higher potencymarijuana, there are studies that are clearly
(16:25):
showing that high potency sativa from theplant really causes individuals to be amped up.
So instead of tired, they maybe amped up. They will experience
hallucinations and other types of experiences verysimilar to PCP, so you'll see that
(16:49):
happening as well. Well. Well, right now, we all know that
the federal government is going through theprocess of reclassifying marijuana. So I'm just
curious to know what are the concernsthat this possible rescheduling of marijuana could have
on safety sensitive you know, employersas well as their employees and others that
(17:15):
require drug testing for safety. Sure. Yeah, so you know, in
today's environment, the rescheduling or reclassificationthat was announced back in May, the
actual effects of that really are afew Okay, first and foremost, it's
(17:38):
it's the first step on a wholelist of what drug will they possibly want
to reschedule or legalize next, Soit's it's the first step for us,
but for the transportations sector, withthe language that it's currently written, there's
(18:04):
no language in there that speaks abouta safety carve out and the need to
protect safety. So what that simplymeans is today the Department of Transportation is
only allowed to test for Schedule oneand Schedule two illegal drugs. Reclassifying to
(18:29):
Schedule three will essentially make it aprescription and so therefore the DOT will not
be allowed to drug test for marijuana. And so what that simply means is
that school bus drivers will be allowedto smoke marijuana before they get on the
(18:55):
bus and start driving the kids toschool, and the employer will not be
allowed to test them. And Markgoing to ask you a follow up just
to that point right there with that, so you know, every state is
different. So here in Florida wehave medical marijuana, recreational adult use is
illegal what and in other states it'sthe same. So would this be for
(19:18):
not you know, medical marijuana andrecreational depending on what state you live in.
Well, we all know that marijuanais still considered federally illegal, right
right. Rescheduling it to a Schedulethree essentially is going to cause the individual
(19:38):
to have to have a valid prescription. Okay for me exactly, Florida,
you have to have a medical marijuanacard and you have to be recommended by
a physician. So right and correct. And so what that really means is
is that if an employer, okay, were to drug test for marijuana under
(20:07):
Schedule three, the medical review officerwho reviews the results and talks to the
donor, would then validate the prescriptionand make the test negative instead of positive,
and therefore employers would have no knowledgethat the individual is using that substance,
(20:30):
okay, and would Florida had tochange their laws if they wanted.
I'm just curious if Florida could dosomething different to change that. Well,
but I'm just curious. Yeah,each state, each state has some varying
different laws that they've written in andso it's entirely possible that the states may
(20:51):
want to go back and reevaluate theircurrent laws and what changes do they maybe
want to make to them, andwhat requirements do they want to put within
that state. So it could verywell be that some of the states will
all of a sudden go well,if there's not going to be a safety
(21:11):
carve out on the federal level.We're going to go after it on the
state level and we're going to dothis and we're going to enact that.
So that's entirely possible. It couldentirely happen. I think it's a matter
that we're all in this wait andsee phase. So tell me more about
(21:33):
the carve out that they could doat the federal level. Sure, So
you know, there's a couple ofdifferent options. I mean, obviously,
on the federal level, they couldenact a presidential order, an executive order
placing a safety carve out, whichwould then allow for the Department of Transportation
(21:56):
to continue to test for marijuana,and that order could very easily happen.
Otherwise, what would have to happenis there would have to be the presenting
of a bill, so a legislativeprocess, and a bill would have to
(22:18):
be proposed, and it would thenhave to pass through the Senate and the
House before it would become law.So there's kind of a couple of different
ways that they could certainly look todo this, and we as resources and
advocates for this industry that we workin, are definitely wanting to be part
(22:42):
of those conversations, some people arewell informed, so that way we can
make the best decisions for our actualpublic. Okay, well, we have
a question here from Tracy Schell whichaligns with this converse we're having here.
So it says, with this example, don't bus drivers and truck drivers have
(23:04):
a CDL and that's a commercials driver'slicense that would also put some additional stipulations
on their approval for a medical marijuana. Currently, active CTAs can't be approved
for medical marijuana in Florida. Socurrently today, yes, the Department of
Transportation does not recognize medical marijuana cards, does not recognize marijuana on the state
(23:30):
level, and there is actually guidanceon that. However, once this rescheduling
were to go through with no safetycarve out, language that would be removed
and it would then allow for anyonean airline pilot, a truck driver,
(23:59):
Amtrak train operator, school bus driver, charter bus driver, they would all
be then given pretty much a greenticket to use marijuana, and the employer
will not be allowed to test themwithout a safety carve out or some kind
of legislation or executive order, wewould go backwards. So Mark, what
(24:23):
could employers decide for their own legallylegal liabilities to say I'm going to continue
to do the drug testing whether ornot there's a carve out, whether there
is or not a car out atthe five absolutely, so you know,
barring whatever happens with the rescheduling.Okay, whether you're for it or against
(24:47):
it, that's not the topic here. It really doesn't matter, okay.
But what does matter is that theemployer's right to drug tests is still in
play. Okay. We would hopethat there's never going to be a push
to cancel drug testing altogether. ButI think that employers have this liability and
(25:15):
this risk that they want to protect, and so an employer could in fact
rewrite their company policy and their actualstandards that they wish to have as an
employer, and so they could thenof course afford themselves the ability to do
(25:37):
that. It would just not beon the federal level. So we have
a question here about whether CDO driversare allowed prescriptions for opiates, and I'd
be curious to know where opiates falloff the federal schedule for this question right
here as sure, great question.Yes, currently today CDL drivers do and
(25:57):
are allowed to receive a prescription foropioids. Okay. And when we talk
about opioids, we're talking about codeineand morphine as well as hydro codone,
hydromorphone, oxycodone, and oxymorphone.So some folks recognize oxycodone being an opioid
(26:21):
that is prescribed, but hydromorphone isbetter referred to as percocet, so people
understand, you know, the genericterm percocet actually falls into that category for
hydro hydromorphone and hydro codone. Butwhen those drivers have those prescriptions, they
(26:45):
are they are of course told thatthey shouldn't be driving, okay. And
so companies may have a policy thatsays, if you are taking one of
the opioid prescriptions that could cause youto not perform safely, you must notify
(27:07):
us, okay. The employer isnot saying that we want to know all
your prescriptions, okay, because nowwe're invading someone's privacy okay, which the
employer does not want to do.But what the employer does want to do
is protect safety. And there's anadditional process that during the medical review process
(27:33):
with the doctor, if the doctordeems that the individual is taking an opioid
prescription, they may notify the employercalling it a negative. So the employer
doesn't know about the prescription, butthey will put a note with a safety
(27:55):
concern and they will recommend that theemployer have the employee evaluated for what is
called fitness for duty. And sothose things are then in place to again
protect safety should someone be taking theprescription. It's entirely possible that the employer
(28:15):
will never know about the prescription,but there will be a recommendation for a
fit for duty evaluation to be doneto ensure that that individual will be able
to perform their job safely. Yeah, So, Mark, are there is
there any research out there regarding thetesting of cannabis in one's system for these
(28:38):
safety secretive positions when it comes toyou know, how much is in them,
how impaired they may be. Socurrently today there is no test for
impairment. It doesn't exist. Thescience is just not there, okay,
because drugs affect individuals differently for alot of various reasons. How potent is
(29:06):
the cannabis, how much did theperson consume over what period of time did
they consume it? What is theindividual's body makeup, their weight, their
metabolism, and all of these thingstake into consideration. But there are some
(29:26):
research studies that exist. There's oneout by the University of Sydney that actually,
yes, Sydney, Australia. Yes, they actually did a research study
just recently and they were able toidentify cognitive impairment can be seen from cannabis
(29:51):
use for four to six hours.Now, obviously if individuals are using more
and using more often, that cognitiveimpairment can be seen for even longer periods
of time, you know, morethan the four to six hour period,
(30:11):
but typically you know, for yourinfrequent users. The study actually showed that
individuals had cognitive impairment. And whenwe talk about cognitive impairment, that's having
the ability to you know, docertain functions. So obviously driving a vehicle,
you know, would definitely fall intothat. And so impairment was still
(30:33):
seen and was still there. Andthere's countless other studies and research that's out
there around this topic as well.There was a recent survey done out of
California where they interviewed five hundred individualsabout using cannabis in the workplace and they
(30:56):
were able to discover that fifty threepercent we're using daily at or before going
to work. Wow, eighty sixpercent of those individuals were either smoking it
or vaping it, and forty eightpercent of those surveyed stated that they use
(31:21):
cannabis on their break at work.So we see these statistics and see these
surveys, and they're concerning for employersand the employer population. Because just recently
we had the Senior Human Resource ManagementConference. The annual conference was held in
(31:48):
Chicago now just finished up yesterday,and during one of the presentations, they
were interviewing CEOs on leadership and whatchallenges CEO's face and the top three.
Okay, the number one concern thatCEOs had was hiring and recruiting qualified talent.
(32:17):
The second reason was turnover and recruitmentand absenteeism. But the third reason
the CEOs have been dealing with andstressing was employee substance use. Interesting,
(32:40):
So it was very interesting. Sothere's a lot of data out there that
exists, and it's a matter thatindividuals become informed by looking at that data
so they better understand what we're dealingwith when we talk about cannabis. Well,
that's interesting. That's a great segueinto my followup question on that subject
(33:00):
is what are organizations in the drugtesting industry, you know, the associations
like the one you're that you're elective. What are you all doing to position
yourself as a resource to companies asthe US goes through this rescheduling process,
you know, to help them prepare. Absolutely, so we are, you
(33:21):
know, obviously we're trying to simplybe out there, and we're out here
to educate and be that resource toindividuals who want to be part of the
conversation. We also are advocates.We want to advocate, and so we
(33:44):
advocate through advocacy and visiting with peoplein Washington, d C. Educating them,
letting them know that we are here. And with our association, we
like strategy partnerships and work with otherorganizations such as the Smart Approaches to Marijuana
(34:07):
Network, the Parent Action Network,the Substance Abuse Program Professionals Administration Association Excuse
me. SAPPA is another industry associationlike the National Drug and Alcohol Screening Association,
and we really just want to beout there and make sure that everyone's
(34:30):
voice is heard. We want tomake sure that we're providing actual, good
data and good research around this areaso individuals have a full understanding of what
this looks like, yeah, yeah, So the are you is your industry
(34:52):
thinking about how you may be impactedby the rescheduling or the reclassification of marijuana.
What does that look like? Absolutely? You know, we we truly
believe that, you know, it'sgoing to turn our industry upside down because
it's going to change how policies willneed to be written, it's going to
(35:14):
change how the testing may be done, if at all sometime And it really
is, as a you know,stated earlier, it's actually step one in
what could be next and what drugwill be next? Is someone going to
(35:37):
try and say that cocaine is goodfor certain things and it should be made
medically okay? And which other drugs? So I think that, you know,
we're at the start of something andwe're at a pivotal part in our
country that we need to be outthere and we need to be talking about
(36:00):
this and we need to really extendto everyone that concerns that do exist that
individuals may not be hearing about.And that's really what we're trying to do.
Yeah, So do you have anyclosing thoughts for our listeners and viewers
(36:20):
of the program regarding drug testing formarijuana and the potential reclassification to a less
danger drug. I would just simplysay, do your research. Be open
to conversation. Rather than being insome instances closed minded, be open minded.
(36:50):
Be open to listening and learning andunderstanding what it is that's before us.
Whether you're for something or against something, that is your right, but
make sure that you understand what thatconsequence might look like. And by doing
(37:12):
that, go out and research.Be curious, ask questions, demand answers
so you have a better understanding,and make sure that your voice is heard.
Get out there and have your voiceheard, because each and every one
of us matter. Mark, thankyou so much for being a guest on
(37:34):
this Conversations on Cannabis virtual form,brought to you by the Medical Marijuana Education
and Research Initiative at Florida and MUniversity. Thank you to everyone watching this
program. Tell us what you thinkabout this form by completing the survey that
will be posted in the comment boxeson YouTube and Facebook after this live program.
If you complete the survey, yourname will be entered into a drawing
(37:57):
on July eleventh, twenty four toan a one hundred dollars gift card provided
by one of Mary's partners. Wealso want to encourage you to go to
the Florida Department of Health Office ofMedical Marijuana Use website to learn how to
obtain a legal medical marijuana card inthe state of Florida. We also encourage
you to go to the Florida andM University's merrywebsite to learn more about this
(38:20):
initiative, its educational programs, andadditional information about cannabis use in Florida.
Thanks everyone. The views and opinionsof our invited guests are not necessarily the
views and opinions of Florida Agricultural andMechanical University or the Medical Marijuana Education and
Research Initiative.
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