August 27, 2024 • 28 mins
In this episode of the Mom Owned and Operated podcast, Rita Suzanne and Annie Hillman discuss raising a family, running a business and remembering yourself.
Annie is the founder + CEO of 1428 Financial, a virtual bookkeeping agency helping business owners embrace their CEO status and focus on the things in their zone of genius instead of spending hours googling how to categorize transactions in Quickbooks.
She started college as a math major, wanting to be a teacher, but found accounting and fell in love. While finishing her degree, she took a temporary accounting job at a winery, working her way up to staff accountant. While that job was interesting, she left in 2020 to start 1428 Financial and feels blessed to get to spend every day helping people treat numbers like a tool, not a threat, so they can run empowered, profitable businesses with confidence.
You can connect with Annie on her website, on Instagram and LinkedIn.
Send a text message! Email, if you want a reply though. ;)
P.S. You can find more interviews at momownedandoperated.com and learn about working with Rita at ritasuzanne.com/apply/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Rita Suzanne (00:01):
Hi, this is Mom Owned and Operated.
I am Rita, suzanne, and today Ihave my guest, annie Hillman,
with me.
Annie, I'm so excited to chatwith you all about knowing your
numbers and all of the things.
Please tell everyone all aboutyou, your family and your
business.
Annie Hillman (00:20):
My name is Annie.
I started my business fouryears ago.
Previously, I worked in wineryaccounting, which was a really
fun job, but I knew that Iwanted more freedom and
flexibility once we had kids andI have a daughter who's two and
I started my business beforehaving my daughter, which I
always say was like my bestdecision I've ever made, because
(00:41):
all the moms out there whostart a business when they
already have kids props to you,you're like amazing and so yeah,
so I've been running mybusiness for four years.
We do bookkeeping and CFOservices for business owners.
We primarily work with onlineservice providers, so this could
be operations agencies, thiscould be social media managers,
(01:06):
brand and web designers anythingreally that falls into that
online service provider bucket.
Rita Suzanne (01:13):
I love it.
So let's just go back to whyyou felt like it was better to
start your business prior tohaving your daughter, to having
your daughter?
Annie Hillman (01:23):
Yeah, that's, that's a great question.
So I was working, you know, 10hours a day.
I joke very dramatically that Iwas chained to my desk for 10
hours a day and I kind of justhad this thought of you know, if
I'm going to have children,don't, I want to spend time with
them and be with them, and Iknow there's a lot of people out
(01:43):
there who love that corporatelifestyle and that's worked for
them.
For me, I knew that I didn'twant that.
That's not how I wanted to livemy life.
So it was kind of ahappenstance thing.
I started doing a friend of myhusband's books, just kind of on
the side, for a little extraside money, and then I was like
wait a minute, this is reallyfun, I could do this and I could
(02:04):
help small business owners and,like I said, my, my previous
job was really interesting andit was fun.
But now that I get to servesmall business owners and help
them and it's it's reallyamazing because I get to, it's
where it.
These are the people that needhelp and I love that I get to
(02:25):
just serve such a diverse likeclientele.
It's not just one businesswhere we're doing one thing and
we're, you know, selling bottlesof wine, which is great and it
was exciting, but I just.
It's so much more fulfillinggetting to do what I do now.
Rita Suzanne (02:41):
So is it that you can kind of problem solve at the
same time while you're doingtheir books and stuff for them?
Annie Hillman (02:49):
Exactly and it's getting to really.
You know, when you work for ahuge corporation or a you know a
big company, most of the timetheir CEO knows a lot about
finances, and for me I love that.
Working with small businessowners, I get to like not only
help them make sure their booksare on track, make sure
(03:10):
everything's up to date fortaxes, but also that education
piece is really, reallyfulfilling to me because once
upon a time in college I wantedto be a teacher.
I wanted to.
I was planning to teach highschool math, which I'm glad I
kind of was deterred from doingthat because high school
teenagers are fun but, I thinkteaching small business owners
(03:33):
is so much more fun.
Rita Suzanne (03:36):
No, I agree.
Plus, you get a lot morefreedom and flexibility and you
get to spend time with yourdaughter, which is the most you
know fulfilling part, I think,of our businesses as moms.
I think that that's the drivingforce for most of us.
When we start our businesses,you know whether it's after or
before we have our children.
(03:56):
I always tell my clients, whenwe're even talking about goals,
one of the things that theyshould look at is their numbers
every single month to make sure,kind of look and see what is
selling the most for them anduse that as a barometer of what
they should kind of focus on andyou know what's not selling.
(04:19):
So what are the reports thatthey should be looking at?
Like what numbers should theybe looking at?
Like what?
do you like, let's get into allof that, yeah, I love this
question.
Annie Hillman (04:30):
So I would say, like everything you said, I
completely agree with you wantto know, not only like how much
revenue you're bringing in, butwhat of your different offers
are bring is bringing in themost revenue.
And let's say, for example, youhave one offer that you don't
even market that much but it'skind of bringing in the bulk of
your revenue, then maybe whatwould happen if you shifted your
(04:51):
marketing and said I'm going tofocus on this and you could
bring in even more?
So having that level ofvisibility on what you know,
what offers are performing well,or maybe there's one that
you're pouring so much into andis not doing anything for you,
where could that energy bebetter spent?
So I definitely echo that.
(05:12):
The reports I would say the onereport that you're going to
want to look at on a monthlybasis, no matter what is your
profit and loss.
Sometimes it's also called theincome statement, and so this is
going to give you the meat ofthe data that you want and
that's going to help you runyour business.
Of course, to look at your P&Land have an accurate P&L, you
have to have your bookkeepingdone, whether you have a
(05:33):
bookkeeper or you are doing ityourself, and you have to do
that first, and then you canlook at your P&L and what it's
going to show you is first yourrevenue, all the revenue that
you what level you're breakingit down to you can see those
(05:54):
different offers and how they'reperforming.
And then, after your revenue,you're going to see your all of
your expenses.
So this is going to beeverything that goes into
running your business.
So this is going to besubscriptions.
Let's say you use Canva foryour business and you pay a
monthly fee for that.
Let's say all of your Stripefees If you use Stripe as a
payment processor, you take aclient out to lunch that's going
(06:17):
to be in there, all of thoseexpenses that it takes to run
your business.
And then what's left over isgoing to be your profit.
So you have all of your revenueminus your expenses and you're
left with your profit.
So this is why that P&L is goingto give you so much information
, because it's giving you all ofthat data and you can look at
all of those and kind ofscrutinize them and say you know
, I am happy with my revenue, Iwould like to increase it, I
(06:41):
would like to maintain it atthat, and you can do the same
with your expenses.
It's really, if you're notlooking at your numbers, it's
easy to just kind of fly blindlyand just say, okay, you know
I'm doing pretty good.
But looking at your P&L andseeing all of your expenses, you
(07:02):
can say I, on a at leastquarterly basis, like to tell my
clients to look at theirsubscriptions and we do this
together and just say do I needall of these subscriptions?
Am I using them?
Am I going to like, is thereany that I can get rid of?
Is there any that I'm payingfor something where this one
actually already does the samething?
So I can get rid of this one.
And so just having that level ofvisibility on your expenses is
huge and is really going to helpyou to operate like at a level
(07:25):
of profit.
It's going to help you withyour profitability and making
sure that it's where it shouldbe and where you want it to be.
So that's the biggest report Irecommend looking at.
There's also one more reportcalled the balance sheet, that
can give you a lot of data,specifically if you have any
credit card debt or if you haveloans, or if you want to know
(07:46):
how much you're paying yourselfthrough owner's draws.
You're going to find all ofthat information on the balance
sheet, so that's a really goodone to look at as well on the
balance sheet, so that's areally good one to look at as
well.
Rita Suzanne (08:00):
Yeah, so it made me think of when you were
talking about the profit andloss and comparing the
subscriptions and all of thatstuff.
One question that I always getwhen I'm recording these
podcasts is why am I usingGoogle Meet instead of Zoom?
Right, because most people areusing Zoom, but a speaking topic
that I always that I love totalk about is finding your
(08:23):
profit leaks, right, and so onething that kind of initiated me
looking at the comparisonbetween Zoom and Google Meet was
I could not update my computerwith Zoom.
I could not.
I could not get it to update.
So then I started looking at allof you know everything else,
(08:45):
and then I realized I'm alreadypaying for Google workplace,
which includes Google Meet.
Why am I fussing over here withZoom when Google Meet does the
exact same thing?
And I was paying double foryears and didn't even realize
that I was, and so I use that asa prime example of double
(09:08):
paying for something that youreally don't need to and for
maybe just for the convenience,because everybody else is using
Zoom.
So why shouldn't I use Zoom?
Annie Hillman (09:18):
Absolutely no, I completely agree, and that's
that's something that we gothrough with our clients pretty
often, just to kind of make surethat you're not, like you said,
double paying for for thingsthat you don't actually need.
Rita Suzanne (09:30):
I think a lot of times it's for the convenience,
right, or because everybody elseis using it, and the same thing
happened to me when I firststarted.
Everybody was using Dropbox andso I signed up for Dropbox and
I wish I would have just signedup for Drive and instead, I did
the same thing.
Annie Hillman (09:48):
I was like why am I using Dropbox?
Rita Suzanne (09:52):
Yeah, it was both of them.
I ended up canceling usingDropbox.
Yeah, it was both of them.
I ended up, you know, cancelingmy Dropbox, you know, but I had
them for years because severalof my clients had Dropbox
accounts and then I just endedup switching over, I mean.
So, yeah, lessons learned, youknow, throughout the years, but
I think it's important to havesomebody who's going to help you
figure out, like, what thingsto do and what not to do.
(10:15):
So one thing that you mentionedwas owner's draw, because I
think that oftentimes peoplefeel like that profit of the
business, like that's theirincome, right, and like that's
the money that I get, so what,how do they end up paying
themselves?
Like, yeah, is that reallydepend on the structure of their
(10:35):
business?
What do you?
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, so it does depend on thestructure of your business.
Annie Hillman (10:40):
So you know, when you're kind of starting your
business, you're either going tobe a sole proprietor or a
single member LLC, and this iskind of dependent on what state
you live on.
Mostly live in mostly, andthat's because there's varying
fees, Like we just previouslytalked about how we both lived
in California.
California has pretty insaneLLC fees.
(11:01):
So for some people that's notfeasible in the beginning.
I do recommend, if possible, toget an LLC, like other States.
It's like 50 bucks and it'sit's nothing.
So if possible, I recommendgetting an LLC in the beginning.
But you might be operating as asole proprietor.
So for those two, the way thatyou pay yourself is called an
owner's draw and it's reallysimple.
(11:21):
You just transfer money fromyour business account to your
personal account.
It's not an expense.
So make sure that if you'redoing your own bookkeeping, that
it's categorized as an owner'sdraw because it's it's
technically falls under what'scalled equity, so that's your
stake in the company.
Once you move up to somethinglike an S corp which I think is
very much a buzzword these daysin in the online industry Once
(11:46):
you move up to the S corp,you're going to pay yourself
through a salary and so this isyou.
You could pay.
You could do this yourself andcalculate all the taxes.
I don't recommend doing that.
Use something like Gusto.
Their fees are pretty cheap.
They calculate all the taxesfor you.
They pay the taxes on yourbehalf.
It's really straightforward andthere is a there's kind of a
(12:11):
threshold.
I recommend starting to thinkabout becoming an S-corp once
you've hit 60 to 70,000 inprofit.
It's really variable because itdepends on where you live.
It depends on what your job is,how much you're working.
So this is where we bring in aCPA that's going to give you
what's called a reasonablecompensation number and they're
going to tell you, based on allthose factors, this is how much
(12:32):
you should be paying yourself.
The cool thing is, once youreach that level of being an
S-corp, you are going to besaving in taxes.
But you have to make sure it'sat you do it at the right moment
.
If you do it too early, it'snot really your, it doesn't
really make sense, and so you'repaying more in fees for, like,
the salary excuse me, for thepayroll fees, for things like
(12:57):
you know, the fact that you haveto do a different tax return,
all those things.
So when you get to that 60 to70 profit margin is where it
kind of starts to make moresense.
But a CPA is going to come inat that point and kind of tell
you okay, this is what you needto pay yourself.
This is when it makes sense,but it's, like I said, very
variable.
That's why we recommend notonly having, like, a good
(13:17):
bookkeeper on your team, butalso having a CPA, because
they're going to the two of themtogether are going to really be
able to have the mostwell-rounded financial support
for you.
Rita Suzanne (13:27):
So what is?
I feel like I know the answerto this, but what is the biggest
thing that holds people backfrom hiring a bookkeeper?
Annie Hillman (13:37):
Yeah, this is a great question.
There's a couple things I think.
One of them is cost.
I think you know it's anythingin our business we kind of
hesitate to outsource.
I know I've done it before.
I've now since become.
I've seen the other side and Iunderstand how valuable
outsourcing can be.
(13:58):
But in the beginning, whenyou're just starting a business
and you're like, okay, I have tomonitor every single dollar
going in, now I can't reallyafford to pay a bookkeeper $400
a month.
It seems like a lot.
So that's, that cost is goingto be one thing, and but I
always like to look at the otherside of it.
Yes, Okay, you are spending,like I said, 300, 400, $500 a
(14:20):
month on a bookkeeper.
That feels like a lot of money.
However, what are you going todo with that time you get back?
So I had this experience acouple of weeks ago and I shared
this on my Instagram stories,where I had someone I was going
to replace my front door.
I had it in my mind I'm goingto replace my front door and I
got doing the project and I waslike you know, this is a little
bit more complicated than Ithink it could be.
(14:42):
I thought it was going to be.
Let's just hire it.
So we found a handyman.
He ended up doing it.
I think it was for like $200,$250.
During that time I was on adiscovery call with a client and
it ended up turning into astrategy call and I charged 300
for my strategy calls.
So in that time even though,yes, it was kind of hard to be
like, okay, sure, I'll pay him200, $250 to fix my door for me
(15:06):
I ended up making money becauseI spent that time instead on my
business.
And this is this is so common.
If you are using, let's say,three to four hours, maybe more
of your month to do your books,it doesn't feel like that much
time when you're in it, butwould you rather be spending it
elsewhere?
Would you rather be spending itselling, working on that new
(15:28):
project you have, coming up oreven just at the park with your
kids, Because that's what youfeel like doing that day?
So I know that the cost canseem scary, as with anytime you
outsource something, but I liketo look at the other side of it.
What do you?
Rita Suzanne (15:44):
get back, but it's also an expense, and I think
that oftentimes, like peopledon't have enough expenses to
offset their income, and so theyneed to also think about that
Right, absolutely.
Annie Hillman (15:55):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's why we have a lot of
resources for people who are inthe beginning in our DIYing.
Because I don't, I would, I willnever look down upon someone
who, just who wants to DIY theirbooks.
I think that there's a time anda place, just like there was a
time and a place when I did myown social media.
Now I don't.
There's just there's a time anda place, and I think that if
(16:20):
you're making the effort to doit, you put a monthly money
meeting on your calendar everymonth, like go you, because
you're making the effort to getit done.
And that's why it's really bigfor me not only to structure our
like free content for to helpeducate those people who want to
DIY, but also to provideresources for people who want to
, because we completelyunderstand it's not always
whether you want to or not cansometimes be irrelevant when it
(16:43):
comes to outsourcing.
It's whether you actually canafford it.
And so if you are able to kindof do it for yourself and do it
on your own and have theresources to be able to do it,
well then that's great and and Iwill never, never say no to
that or never think that that'sa bad idea as long as you're
doing it.
Rita Suzanne (17:01):
Yeah, the thing I was thinking was that I think
oftentimes people are soembarrassed of the state of
their current books that theydon't want somebody to see it.
Annie Hillman (17:11):
Yeah, and that's that's so valid, honestly.
But that's what, that's why wedo what we do.
We're we're never here to judge, we're never here to look down
upon someone, like I said, who'sdoing it themselves.
Because you're doing the bestthat you can.
You're as a business owner.
You have 5 million things onyour plate.
You have you're wearing all thedifferent hats.
(17:38):
If you don't do it like as well,we don't expect you to do it as
well as a bookkeeper would.
Um, but as long as you havesome visibility because it's
helping you as well to see yournumbers Um, not only is it, you
will meet where you're at.
Basically is, if, if youhaven't touched them ever,
that's okay, we'll come in andwe'll start from scratch.
Um, if you've been doing it andyou're not really sure what
you're doing, we do every timewe start working with client, we
do a comprehensive review thatkind of goes back and says like,
okay, reviews everything thatyou've done, or, if you have a
(18:01):
previous bookkeeper, whatthey've done, just to kind of
make sure we're starting off onthe right foot.
So we're just here to meet youwhere you're at, no matter where
that is in your business,whether that's wanting to DIY
and just needing help, orwanting to move forward with
monthly bookkeeping and ready tostart that.
Rita Suzanne (18:23):
Yeah, and you have some free resources for those
who still want to actually do itthemselves until they're ready,
right?
Yeah, absolutely so.
One thing that I've been askingrecently is all about kind of
diving into how, as a mombusiness, we're able to like.
What software or tools are youusing in your business that are
(18:44):
making it easier for you?
Is it a project managementsystem?
Is it some kind of organizationthing Like?
What are you using that you canshare with everyone?
Annie Hillman (18:53):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I have um.
I have a couple that I am inlove with, obsessed with Um.
The first one is Dipsado.
I just love it for onboarding.
I originally went um.
I had someone set up my Dipsadofor me and originally I just
wanted to get kind of streamlinemy onboarding process.
But now that I'm I'm in it andI've been using it, it's so
robust that there's so much youcan do.
(19:14):
I now do my invoicing in there.
I do.
You know, like when I sendemails to a client, it's a lot
of them are through there.
So that's really streamlinedthings and saved me a lot of
time.
And the automation is like thefact that you know it
automatically sends remindersand stuff is huge.
I don't have to think aboutthat.
Very much love Dubsado.
And then along with that is myCRM and I use ClickUp.
(19:37):
It's kind of like my life nowit's just in ClickUp.
But the first thing I do when Isit down on my computer is I go
to my ClickUp and say, okay,this is what I need to do today.
And that's helped me as well,because I'm not just kind of
sitting down and saying, oh well, maybe I'll do this.
Oh, I kind of want to work onthis.
It gives me a plan and each weekI spent some time on Mondays
(19:58):
where I set out okay, this iswhat I'm going to do each day.
So those two tools have beenhuge in helping me to just kind
of.
You know, cause his moms werejust pulled in a million
different directions and thingscome up and, oh my gosh, the
baby's sick.
Today I can't do any of thework that I was planning to do.
Okay, let me just go into clickup real quick and shuffle
things around so that I knowthat, okay, this is what I can
(20:18):
expect the rest of the week.
So those two have been huge forhelping me manage that.
Rita Suzanne (20:24):
Yeah, I find that a lot of times, clients of mine
are very reactive in the waythat they work, and so like
planning things out and gettingthings prepared is a lot better
versus just like just respondingto things and just reacting as
they happen.
Just working ahead will saveyou a lot more stress and
(20:49):
pressure.
And I heard this analogy and Ithought that it was just so
profound and I shared it withsomebody a couple of weeks ago,
and I think it fits in here aswell, where you can either work
like the cow or you can worklike the lion, and I don't know
if you have you heard thatbefore.
I haven't.
Okay, so the cow is constantlygrazing, right, they're just
(21:13):
constantly grazing, grazing,grazing, grazing, grazing, right
, they're just constantlygrazing, grazing, grazing,
grazing.
And the lion, the way that theyare looking to feed is they're
just lying in, wait, right, andthen when it's time to hunt,
they're ready to pounce.
And so instead, what we shoulddo, instead of like constantly
(21:34):
grazing, constantly working,working, working, working,
working, working, which thenburns us out is then we should
take that time, take that spaceto kind of lie in rest, and then
we'll be ready when it's timeto pounce.
Right, it'll, will be, uh, willeffectively be able to have
(21:54):
that energy for that burst to go.
And yeah, I often feel like youknow, our mentality is like the
grazing, the constant.
So I keep telling myself don'tbe the cow, don't be the cow.
Annie Hillman (22:09):
I need that on a post-it note on my computer.
I like that, I know.
Rita Suzanne (22:12):
I'm like.
First of all, this analogyworks multiple ways.
Annie Hillman (22:15):
But yeah, exactly .
Rita Suzanne (22:20):
But yeah, I think that that's great, so let's move
on to one of my other questionsis what is what are you
currently listening to orreading at the moment?
Annie Hillman (22:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I, um, I have a bad habit ofreading like four books at a
time.
Um, I've been really gettinginto like thrillers.
So I'm reading this one calledthe housemaid, and then I'm
reading a book called how totalk so your little kids will
listen, or I think it'ssomething along the lines of
that.
And then, as far as like, Ilike to have like a fiction, a
(22:51):
parenting book and a businessbook, and so, as far as like,
like, the business book I'mreading right now is called
boundaries.
It's like I think it's justcalled boundaries.
It has like a pencil on thecover I can't remember who wrote
it and it's not specificallyjust business book, but it
definitely applies both businessand life and all three of them.
I feel like I I just want toread all day.
(23:12):
I have to remind myself that Iactually have to do other things
too.
Rita Suzanne (23:16):
I love it.
Annie Hillman (23:17):
I love it.
Rita Suzanne (23:18):
So one of the reasons why I started this
podcast was to because I waslike going through this
traumatic time in my life and Icould not, for the life of me,
understand how other moms wereable to like do all the things
because I was failing soepically right, and I needed to
know how they were able to raisetheir families and run their
(23:40):
businesses, but also rememberthemselves.
And so I never leave an episodewithout asking other moms like
how are you taking care ofyourself?
Like what are you doing justfor you?
Annie Hillman (23:52):
Yeah, that's such a great question because I feel
like, as moms, we just it kindof falls to the back burner.
We we worry about taking careof, about everyone else, but
putting out the fires, workingon our business.
So I definitely think it'ssomething that I it's a constant
work in progress for me and Ithink I have to remind myself
and give myself grace about that, because it's not going to be
(24:14):
perfect every day.
There's some days where I don'tI don't do the things that I
need to do to take care ofmyself.
But something I've beenprioritizing is actually reading
.
I think I got into a.
I tend to get into a spot whereeverything has to be productive
.
I have to be productive 24seven.
Even if I'm resting, my resthas to be productive and it's a
horrible place to be in.
(24:35):
But I think, as moms, becausewe are pulled in so many
different directions, it's socommon for us to feel this way.
So getting back into readingmore fiction has really been
just like.
It's just been my time to justkind of do what I want to do and
do something fun, and remindingmyself that it doesn't have to
always be productive.
(24:55):
The other thing that I've beenprioritizing lately is just
making sure that I'm getting mymovement and my workouts in
throughout the week.
I love, like it's one of myfavorite things to do, is work
out and move my body, and Ithink a lot of times it falls to
the back burner because it'slike, oh, I don't need to do it.
I could work on this projectthat I'm working on.
I could, you know, do X, y, z.
So the last couple of monthsI've been really making sure
(25:18):
that time is in my calendar.
It's blocked off and I don'tdip into it unless it's an
absolute emergency.
And that has given me.
It's so interesting because Ifeel like once we do those
things for ourselves that weneed to do, we feel so much
better about everything else.
We feel like that thing thatwas daunting in the back of our
head it's, it's actuallymanageable, we can do it.
(25:40):
And because I, you know, took45 minutes to get a workout in,
I have all those endorphinsrunning through me and I feel
like I can do all the thingsthat I need to do and it's not
just scary and daunting anymore.
Rita Suzanne (25:51):
Yeah, I, um, and you know, and it's definitely a
transition period for youbecause your daughter is so
young, and so I just would say,just give yourself a little bit
of grace, because you're stillin that moment of you know, just
kind of getting things together.
One thing that I remember whenmy kids were younger that I
(26:15):
implemented right away and Iused to do because it made me
feel accomplished, no matterwhat was the miracle morning.
And I don't know if you've heardof it but that helped me, even
though it's just five minutes ofexercise.
You know, it was like doingsome kind of like quick Tabata
or something.
You know, when I made somethingfast, I then, if I wasn't able
(26:36):
to do a full workout, then Ifelt like, okay, at least I did
that, at least I journaled, atleast I meditated, at least I
did something, you know.
So I I want to get back intothat practice.
It's just really hard for menow because of just the space
I'm in at the moment, but Ithink that for some people I
think it's a great practice ifthey can incorporate it, you
(26:59):
know at their time.
I completely agree.
Yeah, so where can everyonefind you?
Where are you at online?
Annie Hillman (27:09):
Yeah, so my website is 1428financialcom.
On Instagram we are1428financial and that's 1428,
not spelled out, just thenumbers.
Um, instagram is where we'remost active, um, but we also
kind of hang out a little bit onPinterest, linkedin, those
things.
But I'm still learning LinkedIn.
It's it's new to me, so, uh,I'm not exactly up to date on
(27:33):
that one.
But definitely Instagram, weshare a lot.
Like I said, we share a lot offree content on there that's
really educational and justhelpful, whether wherever you
are are at in your financejourney perfect, and then they
can find all of the free giftsand stuff on your website and
all of the links will be in theshow notes.
Rita Suzanne (27:53):
Thank you so much for being a guest.
It's been amazing.
Annie Hillman (27:56):
Yeah, this is such a fun conversation.
Hi, this is Mom Owned and Operated.
I am Rita, suzanne, and today Ihave my guest, annie Hillman,
with me.
Annie, I'm so excited to chatwith you all about knowing your
numbers and all of the things.
Please tell everyone all aboutyou, your family and your
business.
Annie Hillman (00:20):
My name is Annie.
I started my business fouryears ago.
Previously, I worked in wineryaccounting, which was a really
fun job, but I knew that Iwanted more freedom and
flexibility once we had kids andI have a daughter who's two and
I started my business beforehaving my daughter, which I
always say was like my bestdecision I've ever made, because
(00:41):
all the moms out there whostart a business when they
already have kids props to you,you're like amazing and so yeah,
so I've been running mybusiness for four years.
We do bookkeeping and CFOservices for business owners.
We primarily work with onlineservice providers, so this could
be operations agencies, thiscould be social media managers,
(01:06):
brand and web designers anythingreally that falls into that
online service provider bucket.
Rita Suzanne (01:13):
I love it.
So let's just go back to whyyou felt like it was better to
start your business prior tohaving your daughter, to having
your daughter?
Annie Hillman (01:23):
Yeah, that's, that's a great question.
So I was working, you know, 10hours a day.
I joke very dramatically that Iwas chained to my desk for 10
hours a day and I kind of justhad this thought of you know, if
I'm going to have children,don't, I want to spend time with
them and be with them, and Iknow there's a lot of people out
(01:43):
there who love that corporatelifestyle and that's worked for
them.
For me, I knew that I didn'twant that.
That's not how I wanted to livemy life.
So it was kind of ahappenstance thing.
I started doing a friend of myhusband's books, just kind of on
the side, for a little extraside money, and then I was like
wait a minute, this is reallyfun, I could do this and I could
(02:04):
help small business owners and,like I said, my, my previous
job was really interesting andit was fun.
But now that I get to servesmall business owners and help
them and it's it's reallyamazing because I get to, it's
where it.
These are the people that needhelp and I love that I get to
(02:25):
just serve such a diverse likeclientele.
It's not just one businesswhere we're doing one thing and
we're, you know, selling bottlesof wine, which is great and it
was exciting, but I just.
It's so much more fulfillinggetting to do what I do now.
Rita Suzanne (02:41):
So is it that you can kind of problem solve at the
same time while you're doingtheir books and stuff for them?
Annie Hillman (02:49):
Exactly and it's getting to really.
You know, when you work for ahuge corporation or a you know a
big company, most of the timetheir CEO knows a lot about
finances, and for me I love that.
Working with small businessowners, I get to like not only
help them make sure their booksare on track, make sure
(03:10):
everything's up to date fortaxes, but also that education
piece is really, reallyfulfilling to me because once
upon a time in college I wantedto be a teacher.
I wanted to.
I was planning to teach highschool math, which I'm glad I
kind of was deterred from doingthat because high school
teenagers are fun but, I thinkteaching small business owners
(03:33):
is so much more fun.
Rita Suzanne (03:36):
No, I agree.
Plus, you get a lot morefreedom and flexibility and you
get to spend time with yourdaughter, which is the most you
know fulfilling part, I think,of our businesses as moms.
I think that that's the drivingforce for most of us.
When we start our businesses,you know whether it's after or
before we have our children.
(03:56):
I always tell my clients, whenwe're even talking about goals,
one of the things that theyshould look at is their numbers
every single month to make sure,kind of look and see what is
selling the most for them anduse that as a barometer of what
they should kind of focus on andyou know what's not selling.
(04:19):
So what are the reports thatthey should be looking at?
Like what numbers should theybe looking at?
Like what?
do you like, let's get into allof that, yeah, I love this
question.
Annie Hillman (04:30):
So I would say, like everything you said, I
completely agree with you wantto know, not only like how much
revenue you're bringing in, butwhat of your different offers
are bring is bringing in themost revenue.
And let's say, for example, youhave one offer that you don't
even market that much but it'skind of bringing in the bulk of
your revenue, then maybe whatwould happen if you shifted your
(04:51):
marketing and said I'm going tofocus on this and you could
bring in even more?
So having that level ofvisibility on what you know,
what offers are performing well,or maybe there's one that
you're pouring so much into andis not doing anything for you,
where could that energy bebetter spent?
So I definitely echo that.
(05:12):
The reports I would say the onereport that you're going to
want to look at on a monthlybasis, no matter what is your
profit and loss.
Sometimes it's also called theincome statement, and so this is
going to give you the meat ofthe data that you want and
that's going to help you runyour business.
Of course, to look at your P&Land have an accurate P&L, you
have to have your bookkeepingdone, whether you have a
(05:33):
bookkeeper or you are doing ityourself, and you have to do
that first, and then you canlook at your P&L and what it's
going to show you is first yourrevenue, all the revenue that
you what level you're breakingit down to you can see those
(05:54):
different offers and how they'reperforming.
And then, after your revenue,you're going to see your all of
your expenses.
So this is going to beeverything that goes into
running your business.
So this is going to besubscriptions.
Let's say you use Canva foryour business and you pay a
monthly fee for that.
Let's say all of your Stripefees If you use Stripe as a
payment processor, you take aclient out to lunch that's going
(06:17):
to be in there, all of thoseexpenses that it takes to run
your business.
And then what's left over isgoing to be your profit.
So you have all of your revenueminus your expenses and you're
left with your profit.
So this is why that P&L is goingto give you so much information
, because it's giving you all ofthat data and you can look at
all of those and kind ofscrutinize them and say you know
, I am happy with my revenue, Iwould like to increase it, I
(06:41):
would like to maintain it atthat, and you can do the same
with your expenses.
It's really, if you're notlooking at your numbers, it's
easy to just kind of fly blindlyand just say, okay, you know
I'm doing pretty good.
But looking at your P&L andseeing all of your expenses, you
(07:02):
can say I, on a at leastquarterly basis, like to tell my
clients to look at theirsubscriptions and we do this
together and just say do I needall of these subscriptions?
Am I using them?
Am I going to like, is thereany that I can get rid of?
Is there any that I'm payingfor something where this one
actually already does the samething?
So I can get rid of this one.
And so just having that level ofvisibility on your expenses is
huge and is really going to helpyou to operate like at a level
(07:25):
of profit.
It's going to help you withyour profitability and making
sure that it's where it shouldbe and where you want it to be.
So that's the biggest report Irecommend looking at.
There's also one more reportcalled the balance sheet, that
can give you a lot of data,specifically if you have any
credit card debt or if you haveloans, or if you want to know
(07:46):
how much you're paying yourselfthrough owner's draws.
You're going to find all ofthat information on the balance
sheet, so that's a really goodone to look at as well on the
balance sheet, so that's areally good one to look at as
well.
Rita Suzanne (08:00):
Yeah, so it made me think of when you were
talking about the profit andloss and comparing the
subscriptions and all of thatstuff.
One question that I always getwhen I'm recording these
podcasts is why am I usingGoogle Meet instead of Zoom?
Right, because most people areusing Zoom, but a speaking topic
that I always that I love totalk about is finding your
(08:23):
profit leaks, right, and so onething that kind of initiated me
looking at the comparisonbetween Zoom and Google Meet was
I could not update my computerwith Zoom.
I could not.
I could not get it to update.
So then I started looking at allof you know everything else,
(08:45):
and then I realized I'm alreadypaying for Google workplace,
which includes Google Meet.
Why am I fussing over here withZoom when Google Meet does the
exact same thing?
And I was paying double foryears and didn't even realize
that I was, and so I use that asa prime example of double
(09:08):
paying for something that youreally don't need to and for
maybe just for the convenience,because everybody else is using
Zoom.
So why shouldn't I use Zoom?
Annie Hillman (09:18):
Absolutely no, I completely agree, and that's
that's something that we gothrough with our clients pretty
often, just to kind of make surethat you're not, like you said,
double paying for for thingsthat you don't actually need.
Rita Suzanne (09:30):
I think a lot of times it's for the convenience,
right, or because everybody elseis using it, and the same thing
happened to me when I firststarted.
Everybody was using Dropbox andso I signed up for Dropbox and
I wish I would have just signedup for Drive and instead, I did
the same thing.
Annie Hillman (09:48):
I was like why am I using Dropbox?
Rita Suzanne (09:52):
Yeah, it was both of them.
I ended up canceling usingDropbox.
Yeah, it was both of them.
I ended up, you know, cancelingmy Dropbox, you know, but I had
them for years because severalof my clients had Dropbox
accounts and then I just endedup switching over, I mean.
So, yeah, lessons learned, youknow, throughout the years, but
I think it's important to havesomebody who's going to help you
figure out, like, what thingsto do and what not to do.
(10:15):
So one thing that you mentionedwas owner's draw, because I
think that oftentimes peoplefeel like that profit of the
business, like that's theirincome, right, and like that's
the money that I get, so what,how do they end up paying
themselves?
Like, yeah, is that reallydepend on the structure of their
(10:35):
business?
What do you?
What are your thoughts on that?
Yeah, so it does depend on thestructure of your business.
Annie Hillman (10:40):
So you know, when you're kind of starting your
business, you're either going tobe a sole proprietor or a
single member LLC, and this iskind of dependent on what state
you live on.
Mostly live in mostly, andthat's because there's varying
fees, Like we just previouslytalked about how we both lived
in California.
California has pretty insaneLLC fees.
(11:01):
So for some people that's notfeasible in the beginning.
I do recommend, if possible, toget an LLC, like other States.
It's like 50 bucks and it'sit's nothing.
So if possible, I recommendgetting an LLC in the beginning.
But you might be operating as asole proprietor.
So for those two, the way thatyou pay yourself is called an
owner's draw and it's reallysimple.
(11:21):
You just transfer money fromyour business account to your
personal account.
It's not an expense.
So make sure that if you'redoing your own bookkeeping, that
it's categorized as an owner'sdraw because it's it's
technically falls under what'scalled equity, so that's your
stake in the company.
Once you move up to somethinglike an S corp which I think is
very much a buzzword these daysin in the online industry Once
(11:46):
you move up to the S corp,you're going to pay yourself
through a salary and so this isyou.
You could pay.
You could do this yourself andcalculate all the taxes.
I don't recommend doing that.
Use something like Gusto.
Their fees are pretty cheap.
They calculate all the taxesfor you.
They pay the taxes on yourbehalf.
It's really straightforward andthere is a there's kind of a
(12:11):
threshold.
I recommend starting to thinkabout becoming an S-corp once
you've hit 60 to 70,000 inprofit.
It's really variable because itdepends on where you live.
It depends on what your job is,how much you're working.
So this is where we bring in aCPA that's going to give you
what's called a reasonablecompensation number and they're
going to tell you, based on allthose factors, this is how much
(12:32):
you should be paying yourself.
The cool thing is, once youreach that level of being an
S-corp, you are going to besaving in taxes.
But you have to make sure it'sat you do it at the right moment
.
If you do it too early, it'snot really your, it doesn't
really make sense, and so you'repaying more in fees for, like,
the salary excuse me, for thepayroll fees, for things like
(12:57):
you know, the fact that you haveto do a different tax return,
all those things.
So when you get to that 60 to70 profit margin is where it
kind of starts to make moresense.
But a CPA is going to come inat that point and kind of tell
you okay, this is what you needto pay yourself.
This is when it makes sense,but it's, like I said, very
variable.
That's why we recommend notonly having, like, a good
(13:17):
bookkeeper on your team, butalso having a CPA, because
they're going to the two of themtogether are going to really be
able to have the mostwell-rounded financial support
for you.
Rita Suzanne (13:27):
So what is?
I feel like I know the answerto this, but what is the biggest
thing that holds people backfrom hiring a bookkeeper?
Annie Hillman (13:37):
Yeah, this is a great question.
There's a couple things I think.
One of them is cost.
I think you know it's anythingin our business we kind of
hesitate to outsource.
I know I've done it before.
I've now since become.
I've seen the other side and Iunderstand how valuable
outsourcing can be.
(13:58):
But in the beginning, whenyou're just starting a business
and you're like, okay, I have tomonitor every single dollar
going in, now I can't reallyafford to pay a bookkeeper $400
a month.
It seems like a lot.
So that's, that cost is goingto be one thing, and but I
always like to look at the otherside of it.
Yes, Okay, you are spending,like I said, 300, 400, $500 a
(14:20):
month on a bookkeeper.
That feels like a lot of money.
However, what are you going todo with that time you get back?
So I had this experience acouple of weeks ago and I shared
this on my Instagram stories,where I had someone I was going
to replace my front door.
I had it in my mind I'm goingto replace my front door and I
got doing the project and I waslike you know, this is a little
bit more complicated than Ithink it could be.
(14:42):
I thought it was going to be.
Let's just hire it.
So we found a handyman.
He ended up doing it.
I think it was for like $200,$250.
During that time I was on adiscovery call with a client and
it ended up turning into astrategy call and I charged 300
for my strategy calls.
So in that time even though,yes, it was kind of hard to be
like, okay, sure, I'll pay him200, $250 to fix my door for me
(15:06):
I ended up making money becauseI spent that time instead on my
business.
And this is this is so common.
If you are using, let's say,three to four hours, maybe more
of your month to do your books,it doesn't feel like that much
time when you're in it, butwould you rather be spending it
elsewhere?
Would you rather be spending itselling, working on that new
(15:28):
project you have, coming up oreven just at the park with your
kids, Because that's what youfeel like doing that day?
So I know that the cost canseem scary, as with anytime you
outsource something, but I liketo look at the other side of it.
What do you?
Rita Suzanne (15:44):
get back, but it's also an expense, and I think
that oftentimes, like peopledon't have enough expenses to
offset their income, and so theyneed to also think about that
Right, absolutely.
Annie Hillman (15:55):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's why we have a lot of
resources for people who are inthe beginning in our DIYing.
Because I don't, I would, I willnever look down upon someone
who, just who wants to DIY theirbooks.
I think that there's a time anda place, just like there was a
time and a place when I did myown social media.
Now I don't.
There's just there's a time anda place, and I think that if
(16:20):
you're making the effort to doit, you put a monthly money
meeting on your calendar everymonth, like go you, because
you're making the effort to getit done.
And that's why it's really bigfor me not only to structure our
like free content for to helpeducate those people who want to
DIY, but also to provideresources for people who want to
, because we completelyunderstand it's not always
whether you want to or not cansometimes be irrelevant when it
(16:43):
comes to outsourcing.
It's whether you actually canafford it.
And so if you are able to kindof do it for yourself and do it
on your own and have theresources to be able to do it,
well then that's great and and Iwill never, never say no to
that or never think that that'sa bad idea as long as you're
doing it.
Rita Suzanne (17:01):
Yeah, the thing I was thinking was that I think
oftentimes people are soembarrassed of the state of
their current books that theydon't want somebody to see it.
Annie Hillman (17:11):
Yeah, and that's that's so valid, honestly.
But that's what, that's why wedo what we do.
We're we're never here to judge, we're never here to look down
upon someone, like I said, who'sdoing it themselves.
Because you're doing the bestthat you can.
You're as a business owner.
You have 5 million things onyour plate.
You have you're wearing all thedifferent hats.
(17:38):
If you don't do it like as well,we don't expect you to do it as
well as a bookkeeper would.
Um, but as long as you havesome visibility because it's
helping you as well to see yournumbers Um, not only is it, you
will meet where you're at.
Basically is, if, if youhaven't touched them ever,
that's okay, we'll come in andwe'll start from scratch.
Um, if you've been doing it andyou're not really sure what
you're doing, we do every timewe start working with client, we
do a comprehensive review thatkind of goes back and says like,
okay, reviews everything thatyou've done, or, if you have a
(18:01):
previous bookkeeper, whatthey've done, just to kind of
make sure we're starting off onthe right foot.
So we're just here to meet youwhere you're at, no matter where
that is in your business,whether that's wanting to DIY
and just needing help, orwanting to move forward with
monthly bookkeeping and ready tostart that.
Rita Suzanne (18:23):
Yeah, and you have some free resources for those
who still want to actually do itthemselves until they're ready,
right?
Yeah, absolutely so.
One thing that I've been askingrecently is all about kind of
diving into how, as a mombusiness, we're able to like.
What software or tools are youusing in your business that are
(18:44):
making it easier for you?
Is it a project managementsystem?
Is it some kind of organizationthing Like?
What are you using that you canshare with everyone?
Annie Hillman (18:53):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I have um.
I have a couple that I am inlove with, obsessed with Um.
The first one is Dipsado.
I just love it for onboarding.
I originally went um.
I had someone set up my Dipsadofor me and originally I just
wanted to get kind of streamlinemy onboarding process.
But now that I'm I'm in it andI've been using it, it's so
robust that there's so much youcan do.
(19:14):
I now do my invoicing in there.
I do.
You know, like when I sendemails to a client, it's a lot
of them are through there.
So that's really streamlinedthings and saved me a lot of
time.
And the automation is like thefact that you know it
automatically sends remindersand stuff is huge.
I don't have to think aboutthat.
Very much love Dubsado.
And then along with that is myCRM and I use ClickUp.
(19:37):
It's kind of like my life nowit's just in ClickUp.
But the first thing I do when Isit down on my computer is I go
to my ClickUp and say, okay,this is what I need to do today.
And that's helped me as well,because I'm not just kind of
sitting down and saying, oh well, maybe I'll do this.
Oh, I kind of want to work onthis.
It gives me a plan and each weekI spent some time on Mondays
(19:58):
where I set out okay, this iswhat I'm going to do each day.
So those two tools have beenhuge in helping me to just kind
of.
You know, cause his moms werejust pulled in a million
different directions and thingscome up and, oh my gosh, the
baby's sick.
Today I can't do any of thework that I was planning to do.
Okay, let me just go into clickup real quick and shuffle
things around so that I knowthat, okay, this is what I can
(20:18):
expect the rest of the week.
So those two have been huge forhelping me manage that.
Rita Suzanne (20:24):
Yeah, I find that a lot of times, clients of mine
are very reactive in the waythat they work, and so like
planning things out and gettingthings prepared is a lot better
versus just like just respondingto things and just reacting as
they happen.
Just working ahead will saveyou a lot more stress and
(20:49):
pressure.
And I heard this analogy and Ithought that it was just so
profound and I shared it withsomebody a couple of weeks ago,
and I think it fits in here aswell, where you can either work
like the cow or you can worklike the lion, and I don't know
if you have you heard thatbefore.
I haven't.
Okay, so the cow is constantlygrazing, right, they're just
(21:13):
constantly grazing, grazing,grazing, grazing, grazing, right
, they're just constantlygrazing, grazing, grazing,
grazing.
And the lion, the way that theyare looking to feed is they're
just lying in, wait, right, andthen when it's time to hunt,
they're ready to pounce.
And so instead, what we shoulddo, instead of like constantly
(21:34):
grazing, constantly working,working, working, working,
working, working, which thenburns us out is then we should
take that time, take that spaceto kind of lie in rest, and then
we'll be ready when it's timeto pounce.
Right, it'll, will be, uh, willeffectively be able to have
(21:54):
that energy for that burst to go.
And yeah, I often feel like youknow, our mentality is like the
grazing, the constant.
So I keep telling myself don'tbe the cow, don't be the cow.
Annie Hillman (22:09):
I need that on a post-it note on my computer.
I like that, I know.
Rita Suzanne (22:12):
I'm like.
First of all, this analogyworks multiple ways.
Annie Hillman (22:15):
But yeah, exactly .
Rita Suzanne (22:20):
But yeah, I think that that's great, so let's move
on to one of my other questionsis what is what are you
currently listening to orreading at the moment?
Annie Hillman (22:28):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So I, um, I have a bad habit ofreading like four books at a
time.
Um, I've been really gettinginto like thrillers.
So I'm reading this one calledthe housemaid, and then I'm
reading a book called how totalk so your little kids will
listen, or I think it'ssomething along the lines of
that.
And then, as far as like, Ilike to have like a fiction, a
(22:51):
parenting book and a businessbook, and so, as far as like,
like, the business book I'mreading right now is called
boundaries.
It's like I think it's justcalled boundaries.
It has like a pencil on thecover I can't remember who wrote
it and it's not specificallyjust business book, but it
definitely applies both businessand life and all three of them.
I feel like I I just want toread all day.
(23:12):
I have to remind myself that Iactually have to do other things
too.
Rita Suzanne (23:16):
I love it.
Annie Hillman (23:17):
I love it.
Rita Suzanne (23:18):
So one of the reasons why I started this
podcast was to because I waslike going through this
traumatic time in my life and Icould not, for the life of me,
understand how other moms wereable to like do all the things
because I was failing soepically right, and I needed to
know how they were able to raisetheir families and run their
(23:40):
businesses, but also rememberthemselves.
And so I never leave an episodewithout asking other moms like
how are you taking care ofyourself?
Like what are you doing justfor you?
Annie Hillman (23:52):
Yeah, that's such a great question because I feel
like, as moms, we just it kindof falls to the back burner.
We we worry about taking careof, about everyone else, but
putting out the fires, workingon our business.
So I definitely think it'ssomething that I it's a constant
work in progress for me and Ithink I have to remind myself
and give myself grace about that, because it's not going to be
(24:14):
perfect every day.
There's some days where I don'tI don't do the things that I
need to do to take care ofmyself.
But something I've beenprioritizing is actually reading
.
I think I got into a.
I tend to get into a spot whereeverything has to be productive
.
I have to be productive 24seven.
Even if I'm resting, my resthas to be productive and it's a
horrible place to be in.
(24:35):
But I think, as moms, becausewe are pulled in so many
different directions, it's socommon for us to feel this way.
So getting back into readingmore fiction has really been
just like.
It's just been my time to justkind of do what I want to do and
do something fun, and remindingmyself that it doesn't have to
always be productive.
(24:55):
The other thing that I've beenprioritizing lately is just
making sure that I'm getting mymovement and my workouts in
throughout the week.
I love, like it's one of myfavorite things to do, is work
out and move my body, and Ithink a lot of times it falls to
the back burner because it'slike, oh, I don't need to do it.
I could work on this projectthat I'm working on.
I could, you know, do X, y, z.
So the last couple of monthsI've been really making sure
(25:18):
that time is in my calendar.
It's blocked off and I don'tdip into it unless it's an
absolute emergency.
And that has given me.
It's so interesting because Ifeel like once we do those
things for ourselves that weneed to do, we feel so much
better about everything else.
We feel like that thing thatwas daunting in the back of our
head it's, it's actuallymanageable, we can do it.
(25:40):
And because I, you know, took45 minutes to get a workout in,
I have all those endorphinsrunning through me and I feel
like I can do all the thingsthat I need to do and it's not
just scary and daunting anymore.
Rita Suzanne (25:51):
Yeah, I, um, and you know, and it's definitely a
transition period for youbecause your daughter is so
young, and so I just would say,just give yourself a little bit
of grace, because you're stillin that moment of you know, just
kind of getting things together.
One thing that I remember whenmy kids were younger that I
(26:15):
implemented right away and Iused to do because it made me
feel accomplished, no matterwhat was the miracle morning.
And I don't know if you've heardof it but that helped me, even
though it's just five minutes ofexercise.
You know, it was like doingsome kind of like quick Tabata
or something.
You know, when I made somethingfast, I then, if I wasn't able
(26:36):
to do a full workout, then Ifelt like, okay, at least I did
that, at least I journaled, atleast I meditated, at least I
did something, you know.
So I I want to get back intothat practice.
It's just really hard for menow because of just the space
I'm in at the moment, but Ithink that for some people I
think it's a great practice ifthey can incorporate it, you
(26:59):
know at their time.
I completely agree.
Yeah, so where can everyonefind you?
Where are you at online?
Annie Hillman (27:09):
Yeah, so my website is 1428financialcom.
On Instagram we are1428financial and that's 1428,
not spelled out, just thenumbers.
Um, instagram is where we'remost active, um, but we also
kind of hang out a little bit onPinterest, linkedin, those
things.
But I'm still learning LinkedIn.
It's it's new to me, so, uh,I'm not exactly up to date on
(27:33):
that one.
But definitely Instagram, weshare a lot.
Like I said, we share a lot offree content on there that's
really educational and justhelpful, whether wherever you
are are at in your financejourney perfect, and then they
can find all of the free giftsand stuff on your website and
all of the links will be in theshow notes.
Rita Suzanne (27:53):
Thank you so much for being a guest.
It's been amazing.
Annie Hillman (27:56):
Yeah, this is such a fun conversation.
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