July 30, 2023 • 53 mins
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We're turning the clock back and diving deep into history, with a person who lived the pages of a time many of us only know from books, my uncle. Coming of age in the tumultuous '60s in Memphis, Tennessee, his experiences paint a vivid picture of segregation and the civil rights movement. His anecdotes about a divided downtown and the terrifying aftermath of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination are not just tales from the past, but potent reminders of a history we must never forget. His journey from the streets of Orange Mound to the hallways of University of Memphis in the '80s provides an unfiltered look at the socio-political landscape of that era.
The journey takes an even more intriguing turn as we uncover our shared family history. We discover our ancestor Solomon Sir Jones, a Baptist minister, businessman, and filmmaker who documented African-American communities in Oklahoma from 1924 to 1928. The emotions that flood in as we reconnect with our past are powerful and palpable. Through our exploration, we also examine our family's unique cultural practices, from the mystical allure of Voodoo Village to the natural wisdom of my great-grandmother's herbalism.
It's a rich tapestry of heritage, cultural insights, and personal experiences, both inspiring and sobering. Our family's story, like many African American families, is one of resilience, perseverance and pride. It's a journey that transcends time and space, and one that you're invited to join. Listen, learn, and let the past speak to you through the voices of those who lived it. Discover how the echoes of history continue to shape our present, and how we, in turn, can shape the future.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Hey, hi, it's me Mama Q.
I welcome you to Moments and QIn Q today.
Hi, why?
And Tales of the Dot Dot Dot1960s.
Hi, why.
I give you the green of the dayand I'm explaining the why of
this episode.
It's all right to tell a man tolift himself by his own
(00:51):
bootstraps, but it is cruel justto say to a bootless man that
he ought to lift himself by hisown bootstraps, in quote by Dr
Martin Luther King Jr.
This is my first interviewepisode ever and I'm not talking
to my uncle about the 1960sbaby.
I want to hear his experienceswith segregation, the fear of
(01:14):
any when Dr MLK was assassinatedand, of course, my favorite
topic, who.
Do you please enjoy it and bepatient with me because, yeah,
uncle is up in age, but it'sit's.
It's a great interviewNonetheless.
Can you dig it?
Yes, we can.
Can you dig it?
Yes, we can.
(01:39):
Tales of I initially came upwith Tales of many me from talk
about many me on social media.
I would always share withfriends and family some of the
damnest things she would say.
So it's stuck.
So, therefore, when I dointerviews on my Thursday
podcast and I'm not saying it'sgoing to always be interviews on
(02:02):
Thursdays, but anyway, when Ido them on Thursdays it'll
always say tales of dot dot dot,what it is, and ellipses and
stuff.
So I just want to share thelives of people.
So again, like I said, this willbe me sharing the life of my
uncle, a 1960s baby living inMemphis, tennessee, and having a
(02:28):
decent memory about things.
So enjoy, hey, how are youdoing?
Hey, babe, cool.
Well, first I want to say thankyou so much for taking time out
to want to talk to me aboutthis.
I'm like super excited to hearit, because the problem is, some
(02:48):
people I don't know why theythink that when you think about
the civil rights movement, thatit was so long ago and it's like
no, you were born in the 60s,you remember this.
This is not like we're not sofar removed.
Me being an 80s baby, you knowI'm removed from it.
Obviously that was before mytime.
But in my family I have parentsand uncles and aunties who
(03:12):
remember this and they stillhave the right mind, so that we
are not as far as removed.
So like I'm super excited forthis and I can't wait to talk
about our family.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And I can interject Civil rights never stops.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, that's true, and it never stops.
As a 60s baby, tell me how lifewas for you.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
As a 60s baby, I thought my life was perfect.
Ok.
But that's the mindset of achild, and as I progress from a
child to a teenager, therose-colored glasses, as they
say, came off.
Right.
And then all was revealed to me.
The 60s was a very hard time.
(03:54):
Even before my arrival, youknow, education was still very
prevalent.
I remember when I did become abigger child and mama would take
me with her, especiallydowntown.
I recall seeing separate this,separate that, black and white.
(04:19):
You know, this is where you goto take a leak to eat.
I remember being told to sit inthe back of the bus.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
And I as a child one day said up front and mama said,
no, you gotta come back here,yeah, and how did that make you
feel to be told, even though itwas told by grandma, your mother
that, yeah, you can't sit inthe front?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You know as a child when she would take me on these
outings, because she lovedhaving me with her.
Yeah.
I wasn't in the world like I amnow, yeah, and to be black and
riding the bus with white folks.
We were very quiet then.
You know movies portrayalsbeing vocal and having I'll say
(05:12):
you know, some of that's nottrue I recall being more sedate
than they are today.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Okay.
And was that?
Do you when you recall that?
Was that just from you viewingit around your surroundings, or
what you saw on TV?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
No, that was me.
Like I said in my roll callglasses one.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Oh, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
But the roll call glasses at the time was being
worn by the child.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, that makes sense A relative child I
was.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Downtown was pretty much sedugated.
Oh yeah.
And certain days or certaintimes like mama used to go
shopping at Lourdes thing, whichwas the big brand, and Memphis
at the time.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
So with Lawrence, what would that be equivalent to
Macy's?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, oh, okay, and I remember the packaging with
these brown boxes.
I'm just laughing.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
No, no, no, no, I'm just laughing.
No, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But you know, and it had Lawrence on it, and if you
and Well there are certain times, because you had said earlier
that there were certain times.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Were there certain times that, like people, could
only shop, or certain days?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I don't remember as a child, I don't know if it was
certain days, but I know youcouldn't.
It might have been Okay, butyou couldn't interact with the
white people.
When you did oh wow, and whenwe were allowed to gain entry to
the Lourdes things and theGoldsmiths and a lot of time.
(06:50):
Yeah.
Which were high brands.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, I remember Goldsmiths.
I think Goldsmiths is nowDillard's or Macy's, I don't
know, but either way, yes, Iremember Goldsmiths.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
And to be able to shop there and then, like I said
, when my rose color glasses on,when I would take them off.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I'm like yeah, what is that?
Yeah, so when you shopped, wasit okay.
So the times that you wouldshop with Grandma, was it only
black people shopping?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yes, oh, wow, but you would also have to deal with
white salesmen.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Oh, yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
And being in that Rara, I remember Mama biting her
tongue a lot.
Yeah, not that she was tense orintent on saying anything, but
to be more docile in herdemeanor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
And so I noticed these thingswhen she would take me downtown,
(07:50):
I remember, like I am now, thetall buildings, yeah, which
don't appear so tall, but yeah,they are.
They're like they weretremendous yeah and and I'm
looking and stuff like that andWatching people and stuff, and
at that time your grandma wasn'tvery, very protected for me.
(08:14):
Yeah, that makes sense, and and,but she wanted me to be with.
One thing comes to mind to thisday, by this time, mama had the
four of us.
Yeah, there was a kid ridingthe back.
We live on cable Avenue, dan,mm-hmm, awesome boys riding the
(08:36):
bike river.
And mama loud Him to give me aride mm-hmm and she said would
you like a bike?
Mm-hmm.
By this time I'm selling anelementary school, but I was
aware of my economic status.
(08:58):
Yeah, poor, yeah, and she waswilling to get me a bike and I
said no, and, and, and.
Then I was afraid yeah whichbrings me to now.
I still can't ride.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
You can't ride a bicycle.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
No, I never wrote one , oh cuz we couldn't afford one
and never asked for one.
Okay.
I knew Dan.
I'm very conscious of Us beingpoor and even though she was
willing to try to get me one,that would have been an expense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah take awayeconomically from other areas,
(09:43):
so I didn't ask for things likethat.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Okay okay, so you had mentioned earlier about cable
Avenue, so I'm getting ready togive people some history about
Orange Mound and then I'll askyou some more questions.
Okay, so there's this bookcalled African American life and
culture in Orange Mound casestudy of a black community in
Memphis, tennessee, 1890 to 1980, by Charles Williams, and so
(10:08):
let me tell you about OrangeMound.
Orange Mound, developed as aNegro subdivision at the turn of
the century, was formerly a5,000 acre plantation owned by
John George Dettrick, bounded bythe southern railway on the
north, airways on the west parkon the south and good one on the
east.
Memphis oldest and best knownAfrican American community
(10:30):
received its names from the rowof mock orange shrubs in the
Side yard of the dead Rick home.
Okay, so Growing up in OrangeMound, how was that experience
for you?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
When I was a child it was a good place to live.
Okay, pretty much like where Ilive now orderly, clean houses,
pristine, even though the housesand speaking of stood on the
brick blocks.
You know, maybe four to six oreight, and then you Put the
(11:06):
foundation that you could lookon the oh yeah in the house,
okay yeah some of the houseswere had theirs Enclosed, where
you can look it.
Okay, yeah and these were themore wealthier Orange Mountains
yeah, I'm out.
There is whatever you want tocall them.
(11:27):
I House stuck out.
Yeah, as distinct and Maybebetter structures than the ones
Everybody else was living inwhere the ones everybody else
were living in, where theshotgun houses.
They were here and there, oh,okay, but we grew up in a
shotgun house okay and the firsthouse we stayed in is the house
(11:52):
that belonged to grandma'smother, and I followed, I guess,
and.
But we had to move from thehouse because either taxes
weren't paid and then, eitherway, they lost the house.
Yeah and it was nice big lot.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, I saw.
Maybe a few years ago I did seethe lot.
Nothing is there, it's just agrassy lot.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
But yeah, I saw it was a big lot yeah and If this
was the house on this side,that's where we Left that house
and moved to a duplex.
Okay which are great.
I Guess she was my great, greatAh.
Which which brings us to Lizzieand Celeste Vining.
(12:45):
Big mama, all sisters.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Now who is big mama?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
because I've heard that mama was one of the real
name.
I don't know, I can't remember,but the women that previously
named all sisters of the, mygrandmother's mother, yeah, cuz
I never met?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, cuz I do have our family tree.
And let me see Ain't viney.
We already named her.
Ain't Lizzie, mm-hmm.
Ain't Celeste, mm-hmm.
There's two more boys, butwe're ain't Alma.
Does that sound good?
Then I be okay.
But wait, did you ever meetain't animal?
Wait, I'm sorry, I said they'rewrong.
The big mama that you'retalking about could be no but
(13:31):
did you ever meet her?
Oh yeah, okay, so it wasn'tain't not tall.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Okay, so all the ones before short.
She was tall.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Hmm, I don't know who she could be, cuz ain't Elmo
died before you were born.
Ain't May Lou died before youwere born.
I don't know, I don't knowwhich, I don't know who that
could have been.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well, you have to ask your grandma her name.
Okay, but I remember her.
Okay, okay, I'm listening shopdressing tall Woody's hats.
Back then they wore hats.
Uh-huh and Look good whenstepped up.
Yeah, and, and you know, andall all of this To me as a child
(14:15):
gives you a sense of a to me,mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
And when you reach, when Ireached that age where the
Always had my sense of style,mm-hmm, now that I want to Feel
good, look good you, but Iwanted my mind.
(14:37):
Yeah to be good right, thatmakes sense and and because it
was during the time when a childwas seen, but not hurt.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yep, remember those.
Yeah, and so growing up inOrange Mountain, as we already
established, it was a majorityBlack neighborhood.
So when the assassination of DrMartin Luther King happened,
how?
How was it like in Orange Moundand pretty much the city as a
whole?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
scary scary.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Okay, can you describe?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Oh yeah, I remember that.
I remember they came homeTelling mama and grandma about
teachers being attacked theteachers that were being
attacked, or white at the time,because white teachers were more
predominant than black teachersin a black neighborhood.
Mmm.
(15:29):
Okay, now I don't know if theseteachers were being Called out
for working there.
You know what I mean.
When they could work, you knowI I don't know, but there were
reports about the black youth ofthat time wrecking the school,
(15:50):
tanned up stuff, attacking whiteteachers.
They're running for their livesand and old mills.
At the time it was terrible.
I mean, like I said, the blackkids Attacked the white teachers
.
Mm-hmm who worked in thebuilding.
Mm-hmm, ran them off.
They were running for theirlives to up the school.
(16:12):
Then that night your grandmanot in possession of a firearm
or any kind yeah, stood watch onthe porch.
Yeah, the mixing to see that noharm came to grandma, us and
you know, you know how boys atthe time was still there, but
(16:35):
they weren't.
Me and me again, yeah yeah andand mama stayed up to ensure
that I Guess white people didn'tcome through orange mound
acting of food.
Yeah, and did they?
No, okay Well that's but youknow, when that happened, with
(16:56):
dr King passing, you didn't knowwhat was gonna happen.
Yeah, yeah because by that timeBlacks were no longer silent.
Then it was starting up.
Yeah you know, it was, I guess,what they call black pride and
Mm-hmm, uh, whichever factionyou wanted to join the Stokely
(17:19):
calm Michaels?
Yeah.
A dr King, yeah, you know.
Mindset of non-bibes.
Yeah and and Then anotherorganization that was probably
doing with black pampers.
Yeah, yeah and so they they werecutting up.
(17:40):
When it won't, like today, theysay he said he didn't shoot him
.
Okay, your ass was the one thatwas caught.
Okay, right, so you're gonnapay.
Yeah, you're gonna be the badtaste when people say your name
in Regarding to dr King yeah,okay.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So, as you know, I had already showed you the book
of orange mound, and so I showedyou that some of our ancestors
are in this book.
How did they make?
How does, how does that makeyou feel?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I Love what you're doing yeah.
Because I grew up seeing someof these people.
Yeah and to this day, like whenyou show me pictures, my mother
would tell me that you weren'tborn and I would tell mama I
(18:38):
know who that is.
Yeah and she'd be shot.
She looked at me like youweren't born.
I say, okay, keep saying that.
Yeah, I identified all that wasin the picture.
And she like, how do you knowthese people and not you?
I said I don't know what totell you, but if Anselis ain't
(19:00):
Lizzie, big mama and and I'mdining all around, I remember
these people because when westart, when they start dying off
yeah, I.
Didn't know who, what theconnection was, and, and I
wasn't always nicely swimbecause I didn't understand who
(19:20):
they were and what they were me,because I found out later they
were part of the legacy whichwe're speaking of now.
Yeah, and these were, the womenwere and men Were my
grandmama's, mother, siblingsand, like today, with us
(19:50):
discussing when we came from andthen who they were.
That was not a discussion.
Sure, when you looked atpictures, sometimes, because it
used to be they had a photoalbum of black and white
pictures.
Yeah and it was never open up tous to teaching us.
(20:16):
Yeah, no, I know these peoplebecause maybe grandma, mama's
mother Did that yeah, that wasmy thing growing up.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I always wanted to know about our ancestry and so
before Greg, grandmother hadpassed, and even before she had
dementia and Alzheimer's, I wastrying to get as much
information as I could from her.
But luckily, grandma I'm stillin her right mind now was able
to help put the pieces togetherfor me to even be able to Learn
(20:51):
about the orange mouth book.
To be honest, I can't evenremember how I learned about
this orange mouth, but I justknow some way, somehow I learned
about it.
Um, and then I bought it redditand by this time I had enough
Names in our ancestry in thestreets that that our ancestors
had lived.
On that I'm like, oh mygoodness, this is our family and
(21:11):
so for me.
That brought me a lot of joyand the ability to know that
they will continue to live onbecause this book is gonna be
printed.
I mean, it's in print now.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Even the it takes you back to what orange mouth Was
not to like, not to what it isnow.
Yeah because I don't know whothese damn people who live in
there yeah, probably thesentence of some of the people
With whom I grew up with.
(21:45):
Yeah, but I don't see how youget there.
I Know, I know how you getthere, but I don't see it.
Yeah, because I just don't getit.
Yeah okay.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, okay, that's fine.
Okay, so, um, all right.
So you went to Memphis StateUniversity.
Now we're gonna put a pin in itbecause I have to explain to
people, so, um, then they yes.
So let's see.
First of all, let me also putsome context in behind this is
that I went to University ofMemphis website and I want to
(22:19):
say that in 1959 the Universityof Memphis admitted its first
black students and in 1966 theyadmitted the first doctoral
programs and, and let's see, in1994 Memphis State University
became the University of Memphis.
So that's a little, that's agood thing, of history and
(22:40):
background.
So we can Understand.
If you say because I knowGrandma does this too where
grandma was still called it,grandma was still called it
Memphis State University andstuff.
So I'm trying to provide thelisteners some context that when
you say Memphis State they'relike I've never heard of that.
That's University of Memphis.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So okay, so that was the first name.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm trying to let the
listeners know, so how was?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
it.
Well, we had someone that wentthere before I even thought I
could ever attend there, and hewould take us there.
I would look around, I wouldsee all these people walking,
(23:29):
talking, but these words wereintellectuals, the cream of the
crop.
So to speak I think.
But when I saw that I didn'tsee the prejudice and attitudes
(23:51):
or way of thinking until Igained interest or acceptance to
University of Memphis.
And in my classes oh yeah, alot of the professors let me
know that they didn't want myhands in the class.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Now, when did you go like what?
In the 80s?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I did my first year in 1979 at the morning on.
Okay.
And good school, but I didn'tfeel Wow, wait.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
This is my first time .
I thought I didn't even knowthat you went to the morning
this is my first time.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, I'm about this far.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Okay, okay, I'm listening.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I went to the morning on and was in 10th and
graduating because yourgrandmother time wanted me to
graduate from an old black.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Oh, HBCU.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, okay, gotcha, and I did, and I did well, I
made straight A's without trying.
Okay.
I would go to class and thensit there and I'm like, is this
the way it's supposed to be?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
You wanted to be challenged.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Very much Okay, and even if it made me look stupid,
it's still with the exposurethat I needed to further develop
me and my mindset.
Okay.
So I transferred transferred tothe University of Memphis.
Okay, I got C's when I went toMemphis State, but also A's and
(25:30):
B's, yeah, okay, and I was beingchallenged, which is what I
knew I needed.
Yeah.
University of Memphis, memphisState at the time let me know
they didn't really want my A'sthere and the financial aid man
(25:50):
I can't remember his name but Iremember his face, he told me.
He said I'm gonna tell youright to that, not many blacks
come over here looking as goodas you do on paper.
He said what you mean?
He said, man, you know you gotit.
I said I know I got something.
Yeah, but on paper you looklike you got it, yeah.
(26:11):
He said I don't see too manytranscripts of black students
with all these damn A's and B'son here.
Yeah.
And he said at the time I onlysee one C.
Yeah.
Sometimes I see a lot of D'sand C's, maybe some B's.
But one C.
Yeah, yeah, and that prettymuch was the history.
(26:34):
When I went to Memphis State Imade some D's, yeah, but they
still didn't deter me because Ididn't know how to be afraid.
Your grandma was afraid for me.
She said you go into thatwhite-eyed school and they're
gonna let you know they don'twant your A's there.
(26:56):
And I'm like I'm still going.
Yeah.
And I said I don't set my sightson getting that piece of paper.
Yeah, and sitting in theclassroom, yeah, with these
white-eyed people gonna tell mewe don't want your A's here, I
don't give a fuck.
Yeah, that was me Right.
Little quiet as me sitting in acorner in all my classes and
(27:21):
did my thing.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Okay, now we're gonna take a small break, and then
we'll get back to the secondhalf of this.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
This I wasn't in order.
So I have to go back to talkabout our ancestors a little bit
because during ancestry I foundSolomon Sir Jones and it was
pretty interesting how I cameacross this.
So his sister was my a lot ofgreats grandmother, where I
descended from, and I saw herBichuwary off of newspaperscom
(27:58):
and in her Bichuwary I saw thatshe had a brother and it said SS
Jones.
So I did some digging andlearned that the SS stand for
Solomon Sir Jones and then fromthere I was able to find more
things about him and I don'tknow what it was.
But on newspaperscom I pressedthe wrong button and next thing,
(28:21):
you know, I see reasons andhere it is something about him.
He was off, he did manuscripts,which I'll read in a little bit
, but he had not manuscripts,I'm sorry.
He did videos and somebodyfounded who ended up giving it
to Yale University off of theirB Nick Rare book and manuscript
(28:41):
library.
So let me do a background ofthat.
Solomon Sir Jones films from1924 to 1928.
This consists of 29 silentblack and white films documented
African-American communities inOklahoma from 1924 to 1928.
Solomon Sir Jones, 1869 to 1936,was a Baptist minister,
(29:04):
businessman and amateurfilmmaker.
Jones was born in Tennessee toparents who had once been
enslaved.
He grew up in the South beforemoving to Oklahoma in 1889.
Jones became an influentialBaptist minister, building and
pasturing 15 churches.
He was head of the boardfaction of Negro Baptist in
America and was a successfulbusinessman.
(29:26):
All right.
So I ended up showing somevideos to my uncle here about
our ancestors, so we're gonnacontinue with part two.
So, uncle, when I showed youthe videos, how did that make
you feel, seeing uncle Solomon,sir, and then also seeing some
(29:48):
of our ancestors that youremembered growing up?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
It made me realize the connection between the
factions in the family.
And Mr Solomon, sir, I see himand his I guess will be his
great, great, great grandson andcause he looks they look just
(30:14):
like and it just lets you knowwho they were.
Because the story I was toldthat something happened business
wise to break these familiesapart.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Well, the side that I'm talking about, the side
you're talking about, are on theopposite ends.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Well, I was told at one time, they always connected
somehow.
And then, and you know, asfamily grow and expand, they
lose track of one another.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yeah, so, solomon, sir, he's on the side of the
sister of our great Peggygrandmother.
The side that you're talkingabout is her husband's side,
which is Wash Jones, so they'reon two different sides.
Oh, okay, so, but as we saw inthe video, as we, as we saw in
(31:20):
the video, it showed Otheraunties that you remember
growing up.
So how did that make you feel,seeing their names and seeing
them?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I'm gonna be good.
Yeah as a child.
I really didn't know at thetime the connection between my
mama, grandmama, with thesewomen in this man, because when
I came, only two males survivedand these were brothers of my
(31:57):
grandmother's mother, and theywere uncle dusting, uncle Benny,
and Uncle who, uncle Benny.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Oh, okay, yeah, that's the, oh, that's the uncle
in law.
Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Okay, I'm tracking, and.
And as for Uncle dusting, hefit the mode If you go back and
remember how tall yourgrandmother, your great
grandmother, was.
Now she's a little bit oneshort.
Yeah he was sure.
(32:36):
Okay.
I could be a little short, soyou still see it today, this
height different to what I'mtalking about, and certain,
certain Children have acquiredthis gene, you know, and Even
(32:57):
though I'm tall, I Still see it,you know yeah the legs are the
way in which I'm created.
Yeah.
But they weren't very tall.
The height in the family comefrom Marriage.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
What was the question ?
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Okay, so the question was you were talking about how
it made you feel seeing some ofthe aunties that you remember
seeing and how they made youfeel seeing them on.
Uncle Solomon sir Did silentfilm in black and white because
you remember seeing them whenyou were younger.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
So you feel good.
I mean anybody that wants toknow the family history, either
directly or indirectly.
And as a child I would listento these people because I met
them right then, when I didstart asking, I remember being
told who they were, theconnection to me, to my mom or
(34:08):
my grandmother at the time, andit became clear to me that who
they were, because growing up Ireally had no idea, you know,
and it didn't hit me until, likeI got as I grew and when these
(34:29):
individuals died, who they wereand you know, sad.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, for me it was an amazing feeling To see again
from the book of the orange manbook that we talked about
earlier, and even seeing theblack and white films now,
because of course I don't knowwho any of these people are.
I do have some pictures, butthe pictures I have I couldn't
(34:58):
match them up to people.
But it was just amazing to mebecause we're looking at 99
years later.
The entire world can now seeour ancestors and maybe even
their ancestors if they rememberhow they look Same thing with
in the African-American life andculture in orange man book, how
it's like wow, again otherpeople not just me, but other
(35:21):
people can see their ancestorsand kind of get a glimpse of how
they lived and what they werelike.
Because I call myself theself-proclaimed griot of our
family as far as collecting ourancestry and trying to tell the
stories of our Ancestors.
So it was.
It was very amazing for me tosee it.
It made me happy.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
To the day.
Your grandmother have Books ofphotos.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, and I went over to her house and I wrote down
everybody's name on the back ofit so that that way, if anybody
else want to pick up where Ileft off and stuff that, at
least they can get a generalidea.
And for the aunties in thefamily, or the well, the women
in the family that married, Ieven put in parentheses they're
a maiden name so that everybodycan know who is.
(36:12):
So on the next thing we'regonna talk about Speaking of
ancestry, we're gonna talk aboutwho do.
So I want to know that when youthink of who do, what do you
think of?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
at the time.
This is what they were exposedto, what they brought from where
they came.
Okay, and practice the.
When you think about it, if youwere collecting African-made
and women and children fromAfrica, mm-hmm.
(36:46):
It wasn't a large Christianitypopulation in Africa at the time
.
The practice of voodoo Muslimswanting Islam's, rather, those
might have been the mostprevalent.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, which, and I had mentioned this on a previous
episode of my podcast.
But I have recently learnedthis year that some enslaved
Africans, um, were Islamic.
This lady I went to collegewith, she wrote this book and
she had talked about.
Unfortunately, I forgot thelady name, but it's okay, it was
in my podcast episode, butanyway she had mentioned it and
(37:28):
I was like interesting, becausegrowing up I Was told about who
do, of course, and aboutChristianity in the enslaved
Africans, but I did not knowthat the enslaved Africans, some
of them, practice Islam.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
So that was interesting that you brought
that up right, and history booksdon't like that, the ones that
put it in there, those practicesvoodoo and Islam and whatever
Religious practices existed backthen.
The white man Saw this andDidn't want no part of it.
(38:11):
Mm-hmm.
But once again, how are yougonna kill a true culture that
you brought here Exactly becausethat's already been ingrained
in the mindset, because when youstole them and brought them
here, you expose them to yourmindset and Try to convert them
(38:36):
To what you wanted to bereligious, wise and Everything,
everything, thank you, and.
But at night, history tells youthat they practice where they
came from.
Yeah the religion, culturalaspects and and this is how we
(39:00):
have some sense of that todaybeing still exhibited.
But now it's more prevalent togo what you think your people
came from.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, cuz the thing is now it's it's two-sided,
where some of the enslavedAfricans they either practiced
Biosynchronizing withChristianity so it could look
like they were practiced in thereligion, or they practice it in
secrecy.
But the thing is I read thatsome of the enslaved Africans,
(39:36):
in order for them to get theirfreedom, if they renounced their
religion that they brought over, they had to convert.
And then even in the book thatI'm talking about, there were
times where that the Hulupractitioners would get arrested
.
So again, they had to hidetheir practice or they practice
(39:59):
it.
They decided to practice inChristianity where, like I said,
they synchronized it, whereagain it looked like they were
practicing, or some of themunfortunately, have been
brainwashed and or it ingrainedin them to practice Christianity
and see anything of Africanculture from the ancestors as
demonic.
And now some of the whitepeople are capitalizing off of
(40:23):
it and trying to teach it backto us.
And even now some blackChristians are saying like what
I do is considered demonic,which is very funny to me
because Hulu is ingrained withinthe black church and it's
unacceptable.
(40:43):
Yeah, so it's like they, thethings that I do and the things
that they do, have similarities,but they don't see it that way
because it's been ingrained inthem through media, through
hearsay, through newspapers,just all these things, about it
being demonic, and so I feellike that's a way to keep people
(41:07):
quote unquote dumb bycontinuing to practice
Christianity.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
So for the black culture to say that's not of God
.
At the time that was all theyknew of God or how they knew to
honor him.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
And they also had to do that as a way to get out of
enslavement and the things thatwere happening to them.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, and it's like even today if you don't know a
thing, I would tell anybodyexpose yourself to a thing.
I can't say what a thing is,because what I need exposure to
may be different from you oranybody else, and I tend to
(42:05):
embrace everything like I did asa boy, you know so yeah, okay,
so also in the book they talkedabout Dr Champion.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
So what do you remember about Dr Champion,
which, again, I've mentionedthis in a previous podcast
episode, but yeah, I rememberthe word POTUS.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
And my grandmother, your great grandmother.
She would practice using thosefrom time to time.
Okay, what she remembered, andI loved it.
Somewhere along the line,somebody in Dr Champion's family
exposes man to remedies naturalremedies that work.
(42:52):
Yeah, because at the time whenyou think about it, we didn't
always have this acceptance orexposure to medical anything.
Yeah.
And with the population ofblacks now becoming doctors,
(43:12):
nurses and other acceptable,improbable lifestyles within the
medical community, I like it.
Yeah.
POTUS, and when I think about DrChampion, it was something that
he didn't leave behind when hebecame a pharmacist.
(43:37):
Yeah.
Only he added his knowledge ofthe old ways of creating them to
heal people along with hispharmaceutical practice.
You know, in some cases it mayhave been more acceptable to
people.
And then a lot of the stuff itworked.
(43:59):
Yeah.
Because you know some of us areso high and mighty now in these
days as black people.
You know when you hear peoplesay you've forgotten where you
come from yeah, a lot of us do.
It's just be real.
When you make more money, getmore education, you think
(44:22):
different, you act different andyou don't want the old ways
nowhere in existence in yourlife, your lifestyle or your
babies exposed to it.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Which is very interesting because back then
there were natural remedies asways to heal, and now we have
advanced in technology, but somepeople are still going back to
those old ways because theydon't know what's in some of the
(44:59):
current medicine that they'retaking.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
So they'll go back to using different herbs and
things of that nature in orderto heal themselves because, yeah
, I think having a knowledge ofmaking potas, like Dr Champion
killed and sometimes practicinghis pharmaceutical career is
rather than that.
(45:28):
Other people do it outside ofthe black race and it's more
accepted, so why not ours?
But you have to be someone whohas someone like we did.
You know granting and her forbears.
When you couldn't go to ahospital like we can today, knew
(45:54):
what to do Because grandma, mygrandma, my great grandma, she
and I put saps together.
What's a sap.
A sap is something you put onto a living, having a cold or
the flu to a draw out.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Is that like when you use VIXX?
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, oh, okay, okay, and
granting and how to put thistogether, or hot toddies.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
I know what a hot toddies.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yes, Okay.
And because she used to givethem to me all the time, because
I was a sick little kid andwhen I got sick she knew exactly
what to do Put the sap on me.
I'm gonna make you a hot toddynight baby.
You're gonna drink every bit ofit.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
And the hot toddy had whiskey in it, right.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Not a lot, oh no, I'd love to make what was in you,
which might have been a cold, aflu or even, in this case,
pneumonia, but not extreme.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, to draw itout of you.
Yeah.
And a lot of soup.
Yeah, I don't mean just plainor as.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
No, you can curse.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Chicken soup yeah, granted, we make that up too.
Yeah, and in some cases, broth.
Speaking of broth, I stillpractice using that, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
He opened up his refrigerator.
He keeps showing me things.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I keep, I keep, I remember, that's how she did it,
yeah, and in a way I stillpractice what I saw as a child.
It comes back to me.
Okay.
And it works.
Okay.
I'm not the only one, your auntthe firstborn yeah.
(47:50):
She does it too.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Okay, so another thing that was in the book that
I mentioned was Voodoo Village.
What?
Tell us a little bit aboutVoodoo Village growing up?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I didn't hear about the village until I was about to
come out of high school.
I was going to college, but theword Voodoo I heard throughout
my lifetime.
Okay.
My mama, her mama, were against.
(48:31):
Were against it.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Against it Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah, against it, but I remember incidents where the
weather was quite turbulent likeit is now.
Being, we'll place an axe inthe middle of the floor.
It won't come, you know, wait,okay, I'll give up back in the
(48:59):
day, you know, and but thesewere things that they might have
been told or exposed to, right.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Sounds like hudu to me.
Uh-huh, that is hudu.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Right and uh, but it's not far-fetched because if
it was being displayed as blackpeople, we were only doing what
we knew.
And then, during that time,that aspect of the black culture
(49:31):
was still practicing what theyknew.
I like to call them the ogard.
Okay, the ogard was stillpracticing what they knew with
that because hudu, voodoo orwhatever.
And then the making of poulticeand teas and stuff like that to
(49:52):
alleviate and treat elementsthat didn't require a doctor,
because you had someoneknowledgeable in the family that
knew what to do.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Like an herbalist.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
And she was.
You know who I'm talking about.
Yeah, and because if an elementcame on like the measles, the
chicken pops, a cold or a memoryas a child, I would often get
stripped off.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, because I wassusceptible to everything Mm-hmm
(50:35):
and I found out as a baby I wasthe one, I guess, being the
first.
They didn't know sometimes if Iwas gonna still be here to like
have this conversation with you, yeah.
But I got better, mm-hmm.
(50:56):
And when I got sick, yourgreat-grandmother, my
grandmother, knew what to do,and the only time when I did get
sick, or some of the girls gotsick, that's when she and I love
(51:20):
her for this.
I can't do this.
Johnny coulda doubt.
Yeah, and speaking of mygrandmother, your
great-grandmother, she worked inthe medical field.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
I know, I saw it in the newspaper.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
She was a nurse and I loved her for that, because I
see where I got it from.
Yeah, being you know that'swhat my profession was.
Yeah, and then she would be soproud to learn that certain
granddaughters of hers and mewent into something that she
(51:59):
loved.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
And, yeah, I liked it , but Okay, we're gonna take
another quick break.
Hey, hi, it's me Mama Q.
I welcome you to Moments and QIn Q today.
Hi, why?
And Tales of the Dot Dot Dot1960s.
Hi, why.
I give you the green of the dayand I'm explaining the why of
this episode.
It's all right to tell a man tolift himself by his own
(00:51):
bootstraps, but it is cruel justto say to a bootless man that
he ought to lift himself by hisown bootstraps, in quote by Dr
Martin Luther King Jr.
This is my first interviewepisode ever and I'm not talking
to my uncle about the 1960sbaby.
I want to hear his experienceswith segregation, the fear of
(01:14):
any when Dr MLK was assassinatedand, of course, my favorite
topic, who.
Do you please enjoy it and bepatient with me because, yeah,
uncle is up in age, but it'sit's.
It's a great interviewNonetheless.
Can you dig it?
Yes, we can.
Can you dig it?
Yes, we can.
(01:39):
Tales of I initially came upwith Tales of many me from talk
about many me on social media.
I would always share withfriends and family some of the
damnest things she would say.
So it's stuck.
So, therefore, when I dointerviews on my Thursday
podcast and I'm not saying it'sgoing to always be interviews on
(02:02):
Thursdays, but anyway, when Ido them on Thursdays it'll
always say tales of dot dot dot,what it is, and ellipses and
stuff.
So I just want to share thelives of people.
So again, like I said, this willbe me sharing the life of my
uncle, a 1960s baby living inMemphis, tennessee, and having a
(02:28):
decent memory about things.
So enjoy, hey, how are youdoing?
Hey, babe, cool.
Well, first I want to say thankyou so much for taking time out
to want to talk to me aboutthis.
I'm like super excited to hearit, because the problem is, some
(02:48):
people I don't know why theythink that when you think about
the civil rights movement, thatit was so long ago and it's like
no, you were born in the 60s,you remember this.
This is not like we're not sofar removed.
Me being an 80s baby, you knowI'm removed from it.
Obviously that was before mytime.
But in my family I have parentsand uncles and aunties who
(03:12):
remember this and they stillhave the right mind, so that we
are not as far as removed.
So like I'm super excited forthis and I can't wait to talk
about our family.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And I can interject Civil rights never stops.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Yeah, that's true, and it never stops.
As a 60s baby, tell me how lifewas for you.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
As a 60s baby, I thought my life was perfect.
Ok.
But that's the mindset of achild, and as I progress from a
child to a teenager, therose-colored glasses, as they
say, came off.
Right.
And then all was revealed to me.
The 60s was a very hard time.
(03:54):
Even before my arrival, youknow, education was still very
prevalent.
I remember when I did become abigger child and mama would take
me with her, especiallydowntown.
I recall seeing separate this,separate that, black and white.
(04:19):
You know, this is where you goto take a leak to eat.
I remember being told to sit inthe back of the bus.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
And I as a child one day said up front and mama said,
no, you gotta come back here,yeah, and how did that make you
feel to be told, even though itwas told by grandma, your mother
that, yeah, you can't sit inthe front?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
You know as a child when she would take me on these
outings, because she lovedhaving me with her.
Yeah.
I wasn't in the world like I amnow, yeah, and to be black and
riding the bus with white folks.
We were very quiet then.
You know movies portrayalsbeing vocal and having I'll say
(05:12):
you know, some of that's nottrue I recall being more sedate
than they are today.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Okay.
And was that?
Do you when you recall that?
Was that just from you viewingit around your surroundings, or
what you saw on TV?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
No, that was me.
Like I said in my roll callglasses one.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Oh, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
But the roll call glasses at the time was being
worn by the child.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, that makes sense A relative child I
was.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Downtown was pretty much sedugated.
Oh yeah.
And certain days or certaintimes like mama used to go
shopping at Lourdes thing, whichwas the big brand, and Memphis
at the time.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
So with Lawrence, what would that be equivalent to
Macy's?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yeah, oh, okay, and I remember the packaging with
these brown boxes.
I'm just laughing.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
No, no, no, no, I'm just laughing.
No, it's okay.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
But you know, and it had Lawrence on it, and if you
and Well there are certain times, because you had said earlier
that there were certain times.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
Were there certain times that, like people, could
only shop, or certain days?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I don't remember as a child, I don't know if it was
certain days, but I know youcouldn't.
It might have been Okay, butyou couldn't interact with the
white people.
When you did oh wow, and whenwe were allowed to gain entry to
the Lourdes things and theGoldsmiths and a lot of time.
(06:50):
Yeah.
Which were high brands.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah, I remember Goldsmiths.
I think Goldsmiths is nowDillard's or Macy's, I don't
know, but either way, yes, Iremember Goldsmiths.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
And to be able to shop there and then, like I said
, when my rose color glasses on,when I would take them off.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I'm like yeah, what is that?
Yeah, so when you shopped, wasit okay.
So the times that you wouldshop with Grandma, was it only
black people shopping?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
Yes, oh, wow, but you would also have to deal with
white salesmen.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Oh, yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
And being in that Rara, I remember Mama biting her
tongue a lot.
Yeah, not that she was tense orintent on saying anything, but
to be more docile in herdemeanor.
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
And so I noticed these thingswhen she would take me downtown,
(07:50):
I remember, like I am now, thetall buildings, yeah, which
don't appear so tall, but yeah,they are.
They're like they weretremendous yeah and and I'm
looking and stuff like that andWatching people and stuff, and
at that time your grandma wasn'tvery, very protected for me.
(08:14):
Yeah, that makes sense, and and,but she wanted me to be with.
One thing comes to mind to thisday, by this time, mama had the
four of us.
Yeah, there was a kid ridingthe back.
We live on cable Avenue, dan,mm-hmm, awesome boys riding the
(08:36):
bike river.
And mama loud Him to give me aride mm-hmm and she said would
you like a bike?
Mm-hmm.
By this time I'm selling anelementary school, but I was
aware of my economic status.
(08:58):
Yeah, poor, yeah, and she waswilling to get me a bike and I
said no, and, and, and.
Then I was afraid yeah whichbrings me to now.
I still can't ride.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
You can't ride a bicycle.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
No, I never wrote one , oh cuz we couldn't afford one
and never asked for one.
Okay.
I knew Dan.
I'm very conscious of Us beingpoor and even though she was
willing to try to get me one,that would have been an expense.
Yeah, yeah, yeah take awayeconomically from other areas,
(09:43):
so I didn't ask for things likethat.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Okay okay, so you had mentioned earlier about cable
Avenue, so I'm getting ready togive people some history about
Orange Mound and then I'll askyou some more questions.
Okay, so there's this bookcalled African American life and
culture in Orange Mound casestudy of a black community in
Memphis, tennessee, 1890 to 1980, by Charles Williams, and so
(10:08):
let me tell you about OrangeMound.
Orange Mound, developed as aNegro subdivision at the turn of
the century, was formerly a5,000 acre plantation owned by
John George Dettrick, bounded bythe southern railway on the
north, airways on the west parkon the south and good one on the
east.
Memphis oldest and best knownAfrican American community
(10:30):
received its names from the rowof mock orange shrubs in the
Side yard of the dead Rick home.
Okay, so Growing up in OrangeMound, how was that experience
for you?
Speaker 2 (10:42):
When I was a child it was a good place to live.
Okay, pretty much like where Ilive now orderly, clean houses,
pristine, even though the housesand speaking of stood on the
brick blocks.
You know, maybe four to six oreight, and then you Put the
(11:06):
foundation that you could lookon the oh yeah in the house,
okay yeah some of the houseswere had theirs Enclosed, where
you can look it.
Okay, yeah and these were themore wealthier Orange Mountains
yeah, I'm out.
There is whatever you want tocall them.
(11:27):
I House stuck out.
Yeah, as distinct and Maybebetter structures than the ones
Everybody else was living inwhere the ones everybody else
were living in, where theshotgun houses.
They were here and there, oh,okay, but we grew up in a
shotgun house okay and the firsthouse we stayed in is the house
(11:52):
that belonged to grandma'smother, and I followed, I guess,
and.
But we had to move from thehouse because either taxes
weren't paid and then, eitherway, they lost the house.
Yeah and it was nice big lot.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, I saw.
Maybe a few years ago I did seethe lot.
Nothing is there, it's just agrassy lot.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
But yeah, I saw it was a big lot yeah and If this
was the house on this side,that's where we Left that house
and moved to a duplex.
Okay which are great.
I Guess she was my great, greatAh.
Which which brings us to Lizzieand Celeste Vining.
(12:45):
Big mama, all sisters.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Now who is big mama?
Speaker 2 (12:50):
because I've heard that mama was one of the real
name.
I don't know, I can't remember,but the women that previously
named all sisters of the, mygrandmother's mother, yeah, cuz
I never met?
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Yeah, cuz I do have our family tree.
And let me see Ain't viney.
We already named her.
Ain't Lizzie, mm-hmm.
Ain't Celeste, mm-hmm.
There's two more boys, butwe're ain't Alma.
Does that sound good?
Then I be okay.
But wait, did you ever meetain't animal?
Wait, I'm sorry, I said they'rewrong.
The big mama that you'retalking about could be no but
(13:31):
did you ever meet her?
Oh yeah, okay, so it wasn'tain't not tall.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Okay, so all the ones before short.
She was tall.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Hmm, I don't know who she could be, cuz ain't Elmo
died before you were born.
Ain't May Lou died before youwere born.
I don't know, I don't knowwhich, I don't know who that
could have been.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Well, you have to ask your grandma her name.
Okay, but I remember her.
Okay, okay, I'm listening shopdressing tall Woody's hats.
Back then they wore hats.
Uh-huh and Look good whenstepped up.
Yeah, and, and you know, andall all of this To me as a child
(14:15):
gives you a sense of a to me,mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, okay, yeah.
And when you reach, when Ireached that age where the
Always had my sense of style,mm-hmm, now that I want to Feel
good, look good you, but Iwanted my mind.
(14:37):
Yeah to be good right, thatmakes sense and and because it
was during the time when a childwas seen, but not hurt.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Yep, remember those.
Yeah, and so growing up inOrange Mountain, as we already
established, it was a majorityBlack neighborhood.
So when the assassination of DrMartin Luther King happened,
how?
How was it like in Orange Moundand pretty much the city as a
whole?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
scary scary.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Okay, can you describe?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Oh yeah, I remember that.
I remember they came homeTelling mama and grandma about
teachers being attacked theteachers that were being
attacked, or white at the time,because white teachers were more
predominant than black teachersin a black neighborhood.
Mmm.
(15:29):
Okay, now I don't know if theseteachers were being Called out
for working there.
You know what I mean.
When they could work, you knowI I don't know, but there were
reports about the black youth ofthat time wrecking the school,
(15:50):
tanned up stuff, attacking whiteteachers.
They're running for their livesand and old mills.
At the time it was terrible.
I mean, like I said, the blackkids Attacked the white teachers
.
Mm-hmm who worked in thebuilding.
Mm-hmm, ran them off.
They were running for theirlives to up the school.
(16:12):
Then that night your grandmanot in possession of a firearm
or any kind yeah, stood watch onthe porch.
Yeah, the mixing to see that noharm came to grandma, us and
you know, you know how boys atthe time was still there, but
(16:35):
they weren't.
Me and me again, yeah yeah andand mama stayed up to ensure
that I Guess white people didn'tcome through orange mound
acting of food.
Yeah, and did they?
No, okay Well that's but youknow, when that happened, with
(16:56):
dr King passing, you didn't knowwhat was gonna happen.
Yeah, yeah because by that timeBlacks were no longer silent.
Then it was starting up.
Yeah you know, it was, I guess,what they call black pride and
Mm-hmm, uh, whichever factionyou wanted to join the Stokely
(17:19):
calm Michaels?
Yeah.
A dr King, yeah, you know.
Mindset of non-bibes.
Yeah and and Then anotherorganization that was probably
doing with black pampers.
Yeah, yeah and so they they werecutting up.
(17:40):
When it won't, like today, theysay he said he didn't shoot him
.
Okay, your ass was the one thatwas caught.
Okay, right, so you're gonnapay.
Yeah, you're gonna be the badtaste when people say your name
in Regarding to dr King yeah,okay.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So, as you know, I had already showed you the book
of orange mound, and so I showedyou that some of our ancestors
are in this book.
How did they make?
How does, how does that makeyou feel?
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I Love what you're doing yeah.
Because I grew up seeing someof these people.
Yeah and to this day, like whenyou show me pictures, my mother
would tell me that you weren'tborn and I would tell mama I
(18:38):
know who that is.
Yeah and she'd be shot.
She looked at me like youweren't born.
I say, okay, keep saying that.
Yeah, I identified all that wasin the picture.
And she like, how do you knowthese people and not you?
I said I don't know what totell you, but if Anselis ain't
(19:00):
Lizzie, big mama and and I'mdining all around, I remember
these people because when westart, when they start dying off
yeah, I.
Didn't know who, what theconnection was, and, and I
wasn't always nicely swimbecause I didn't understand who
(19:20):
they were and what they were me,because I found out later they
were part of the legacy whichwe're speaking of now.
Yeah, and these were, the womenwere and men Were my
grandmama's, mother, siblingsand, like today, with us
(19:50):
discussing when we came from andthen who they were.
That was not a discussion.
Sure, when you looked atpictures, sometimes, because it
used to be they had a photoalbum of black and white
pictures.
Yeah and it was never open up tous to teaching us.
(20:16):
Yeah, no, I know these peoplebecause maybe grandma, mama's
mother Did that yeah, that wasmy thing growing up.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
I always wanted to know about our ancestry and so
before Greg, grandmother hadpassed, and even before she had
dementia and Alzheimer's, I wastrying to get as much
information as I could from her.
But luckily, grandma I'm stillin her right mind now was able
to help put the pieces togetherfor me to even be able to Learn
(20:51):
about the orange mouth book.
To be honest, I can't evenremember how I learned about
this orange mouth, but I justknow some way, somehow I learned
about it.
Um, and then I bought it redditand by this time I had enough
Names in our ancestry in thestreets that that our ancestors
had lived.
On that I'm like, oh mygoodness, this is our family and
(21:11):
so for me.
That brought me a lot of joyand the ability to know that
they will continue to live onbecause this book is gonna be
printed.
I mean, it's in print now.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Even the it takes you back to what orange mouth Was
not to like, not to what it isnow.
Yeah because I don't know whothese damn people who live in
there yeah, probably thesentence of some of the people
With whom I grew up with.
(21:45):
Yeah, but I don't see how youget there.
I Know, I know how you getthere, but I don't see it.
Yeah, because I just don't getit.
Yeah okay.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Yeah, okay, that's fine.
Okay, so, um, all right.
So you went to Memphis StateUniversity.
Now we're gonna put a pin in itbecause I have to explain to
people, so, um, then they yes.
So let's see.
First of all, let me also putsome context in behind this is
that I went to University ofMemphis website and I want to
(22:19):
say that in 1959 the Universityof Memphis admitted its first
black students and in 1966 theyadmitted the first doctoral
programs and, and let's see, in1994 Memphis State University
became the University of Memphis.
So that's a little, that's agood thing, of history and
(22:40):
background.
So we can Understand.
If you say because I knowGrandma does this too where
grandma was still called it,grandma was still called it
Memphis State University andstuff.
So I'm trying to provide thelisteners some context that when
you say Memphis State they'relike I've never heard of that.
That's University of Memphis.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
So okay, so that was the first name.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm trying to let the
listeners know, so how was?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
it.
Well, we had someone that wentthere before I even thought I
could ever attend there, and hewould take us there.
I would look around, I wouldsee all these people walking,
(23:29):
talking, but these words wereintellectuals, the cream of the
crop.
So to speak I think.
But when I saw that I didn'tsee the prejudice and attitudes
(23:51):
or way of thinking until Igained interest or acceptance to
University of Memphis.
And in my classes oh yeah, alot of the professors let me
know that they didn't want myhands in the class.
Speaker 1 (24:12):
Now, when did you go like what?
In the 80s?
Speaker 2 (24:17):
I did my first year in 1979 at the morning on.
Okay.
And good school, but I didn'tfeel Wow, wait.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
This is my first time .
I thought I didn't even knowthat you went to the morning
this is my first time.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Yeah, I'm about this far.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
Okay, okay, I'm listening.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
I went to the morning on and was in 10th and
graduating because yourgrandmother time wanted me to
graduate from an old black.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Oh, HBCU.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Yeah, okay, gotcha, and I did, and I did well, I
made straight A's without trying.
Okay.
I would go to class and thensit there and I'm like, is this
the way it's supposed to be?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
You wanted to be challenged.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Very much Okay, and even if it made me look stupid,
it's still with the exposurethat I needed to further develop
me and my mindset.
Okay.
So I transferred transferred tothe University of Memphis.
Okay, I got C's when I went toMemphis State, but also A's and
(25:30):
B's, yeah, okay, and I was beingchallenged, which is what I
knew I needed.
Yeah.
University of Memphis, memphisState at the time let me know
they didn't really want my A'sthere and the financial aid man
(25:50):
I can't remember his name but Iremember his face, he told me.
He said I'm gonna tell youright to that, not many blacks
come over here looking as goodas you do on paper.
He said what you mean?
He said, man, you know you gotit.
I said I know I got something.
Yeah, but on paper you looklike you got it, yeah.
(26:11):
He said I don't see too manytranscripts of black students
with all these damn A's and B'son here.
Yeah.
And he said at the time I onlysee one C.
Yeah.
Sometimes I see a lot of D'sand C's, maybe some B's.
But one C.
Yeah, yeah, and that prettymuch was the history.
(26:34):
When I went to Memphis State Imade some D's, yeah, but they
still didn't deter me because Ididn't know how to be afraid.
Your grandma was afraid for me.
She said you go into thatwhite-eyed school and they're
gonna let you know they don'twant your A's there.
(26:56):
And I'm like I'm still going.
Yeah.
And I said I don't set my sightson getting that piece of paper.
Yeah, and sitting in theclassroom, yeah, with these
white-eyed people gonna tell mewe don't want your A's here, I
don't give a fuck.
Yeah, that was me Right.
Little quiet as me sitting in acorner in all my classes and
(27:21):
did my thing.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
Okay, now we're gonna take a small break, and then
we'll get back to the secondhalf of this.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
This I wasn't in order.
So I have to go back to talkabout our ancestors a little bit
because during ancestry I foundSolomon Sir Jones and it was
pretty interesting how I cameacross this.
So his sister was my a lot ofgreats grandmother, where I
descended from, and I saw herBichuwary off of newspaperscom
(27:58):
and in her Bichuwary I saw thatshe had a brother and it said SS
Jones.
So I did some digging andlearned that the SS stand for
Solomon Sir Jones and then fromthere I was able to find more
things about him and I don'tknow what it was.
But on newspaperscom I pressedthe wrong button and next thing,
(28:21):
you know, I see reasons andhere it is something about him.
He was off, he did manuscripts,which I'll read in a little bit
, but he had not manuscripts,I'm sorry.
He did videos and somebodyfounded who ended up giving it
to Yale University off of theirB Nick Rare book and manuscript
(28:41):
library.
So let me do a background ofthat.
Solomon Sir Jones films from1924 to 1928.
This consists of 29 silentblack and white films documented
African-American communities inOklahoma from 1924 to 1928.
Solomon Sir Jones, 1869 to 1936,was a Baptist minister,
(29:04):
businessman and amateurfilmmaker.
Jones was born in Tennessee toparents who had once been
enslaved.
He grew up in the South beforemoving to Oklahoma in 1889.
Jones became an influentialBaptist minister, building and
pasturing 15 churches.
He was head of the boardfaction of Negro Baptist in
America and was a successfulbusinessman.
(29:26):
All right.
So I ended up showing somevideos to my uncle here about
our ancestors, so we're gonnacontinue with part two.
So, uncle, when I showed youthe videos, how did that make
you feel, seeing uncle Solomon,sir, and then also seeing some
(29:48):
of our ancestors that youremembered growing up?
Speaker 2 (29:51):
It made me realize the connection between the
factions in the family.
And Mr Solomon, sir, I see himand his I guess will be his
great, great, great grandson andcause he looks they look just
(30:14):
like and it just lets you knowwho they were.
Because the story I was toldthat something happened business
wise to break these familiesapart.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Well, the side that I'm talking about, the side
you're talking about, are on theopposite ends.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Well, I was told at one time, they always connected
somehow.
And then, and you know, asfamily grow and expand, they
lose track of one another.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Yeah, so, solomon, sir, he's on the side of the
sister of our great Peggygrandmother.
The side that you're talkingabout is her husband's side,
which is Wash Jones, so they'reon two different sides.
Oh, okay, so, but as we saw inthe video, as we, as we saw in
(31:20):
the video, it showed Otheraunties that you remember
growing up.
So how did that make you feel,seeing their names and seeing
them?
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I'm gonna be good.
Yeah as a child.
I really didn't know at thetime the connection between my
mama, grandmama, with thesewomen in this man, because when
I came, only two males survivedand these were brothers of my
(31:57):
grandmother's mother, and theywere uncle dusting, uncle Benny,
and Uncle who, uncle Benny.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Oh, okay, yeah, that's the, oh, that's the uncle
in law.
Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Okay, I'm tracking, and.
And as for Uncle dusting, hefit the mode If you go back and
remember how tall yourgrandmother, your great
grandmother, was.
Now she's a little bit oneshort.
Yeah he was sure.
(32:36):
Okay.
I could be a little short, soyou still see it today, this
height different to what I'mtalking about, and certain,
certain Children have acquiredthis gene, you know, and Even
(32:57):
though I'm tall, I Still see it,you know yeah the legs are the
way in which I'm created.
Yeah.
But they weren't very tall.
The height in the family comefrom Marriage.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
What was the question ?
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Okay, so the question was you were talking about how
it made you feel seeing some ofthe aunties that you remember
seeing and how they made youfeel seeing them on.
Uncle Solomon sir Did silentfilm in black and white because
you remember seeing them whenyou were younger.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
So you feel good.
I mean anybody that wants toknow the family history, either
directly or indirectly.
And as a child I would listento these people because I met
them right then, when I didstart asking, I remember being
told who they were, theconnection to me, to my mom or
(34:08):
my grandmother at the time, andit became clear to me that who
they were, because growing up Ireally had no idea, you know,
and it didn't hit me until, likeI got as I grew and when these
(34:29):
individuals died, who they wereand you know, sad.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, for me it was an amazing feeling To see again
from the book of the orange manbook that we talked about
earlier, and even seeing theblack and white films now,
because of course I don't knowwho any of these people are.
I do have some pictures, butthe pictures I have I couldn't
(34:58):
match them up to people.
But it was just amazing to mebecause we're looking at 99
years later.
The entire world can now seeour ancestors and maybe even
their ancestors if they rememberhow they look Same thing with
in the African-American life andculture in orange man book, how
it's like wow, again otherpeople not just me, but other
(35:21):
people can see their ancestorsand kind of get a glimpse of how
they lived and what they werelike.
Because I call myself theself-proclaimed griot of our
family as far as collecting ourancestry and trying to tell the
stories of our Ancestors.
So it was.
It was very amazing for me tosee it.
It made me happy.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
To the day.
Your grandmother have Books ofphotos.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yeah, and I went over to her house and I wrote down
everybody's name on the back ofit so that that way, if anybody
else want to pick up where Ileft off and stuff that, at
least they can get a generalidea.
And for the aunties in thefamily, or the well, the women
in the family that married, Ieven put in parentheses they're
a maiden name so that everybodycan know who is.
(36:12):
So on the next thing we'regonna talk about Speaking of
ancestry, we're gonna talk aboutwho do.
So I want to know that when youthink of who do, what do you
think of?
Speaker 2 (36:23):
at the time.
This is what they were exposedto, what they brought from where
they came.
Okay, and practice the.
When you think about it, if youwere collecting African-made
and women and children fromAfrica, mm-hmm.
(36:46):
It wasn't a large Christianitypopulation in Africa at the time
.
The practice of voodoo Muslimswanting Islam's, rather, those
might have been the mostprevalent.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, which, and I had mentioned this on a previous
episode of my podcast.
But I have recently learnedthis year that some enslaved
Africans, um, were Islamic.
This lady I went to collegewith, she wrote this book and
she had talked about.
Unfortunately, I forgot thelady name, but it's okay, it was
in my podcast episode, butanyway she had mentioned it and
(37:28):
I was like interesting, becausegrowing up I Was told about who
do, of course, and aboutChristianity in the enslaved
Africans, but I did not knowthat the enslaved Africans, some
of them, practice Islam.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
So that was interesting that you brought
that up right, and history booksdon't like that, the ones that
put it in there, those practicesvoodoo and Islam and whatever
Religious practices existed backthen.
The white man Saw this andDidn't want no part of it.
(38:11):
Mm-hmm.
But once again, how are yougonna kill a true culture that
you brought here Exactly becausethat's already been ingrained
in the mindset, because when youstole them and brought them
here, you expose them to yourmindset and Try to convert them
(38:36):
To what you wanted to bereligious, wise and Everything,
everything, thank you, and.
But at night, history tells youthat they practice where they
came from.
Yeah the religion, culturalaspects and and this is how we
(39:00):
have some sense of that todaybeing still exhibited.
But now it's more prevalent togo what you think your people
came from.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah, cuz the thing is now it's it's two-sided,
where some of the enslavedAfricans they either practiced
Biosynchronizing withChristianity so it could look
like they were practiced in thereligion, or they practice it in
secrecy.
But the thing is I read thatsome of the enslaved Africans,
(39:36):
in order for them to get theirfreedom, if they renounced their
religion that they brought over, they had to convert.
And then even in the book thatI'm talking about, there were
times where that the Hulupractitioners would get arrested
.
So again, they had to hidetheir practice or they practice
(39:59):
it.
They decided to practice inChristianity where, like I said,
they synchronized it, whereagain it looked like they were
practicing, or some of themunfortunately, have been
brainwashed and or it ingrainedin them to practice Christianity
and see anything of Africanculture from the ancestors as
demonic.
And now some of the whitepeople are capitalizing off of
(40:23):
it and trying to teach it backto us.
And even now some blackChristians are saying like what
I do is considered demonic,which is very funny to me
because Hulu is ingrained withinthe black church and it's
unacceptable.
(40:43):
Yeah, so it's like they, thethings that I do and the things
that they do, have similarities,but they don't see it that way
because it's been ingrained inthem through media, through
hearsay, through newspapers,just all these things, about it
being demonic, and so I feellike that's a way to keep people
(41:07):
quote unquote dumb bycontinuing to practice
Christianity.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
So for the black culture to say that's not of God
.
At the time that was all theyknew of God or how they knew to
honor him.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
And they also had to do that as a way to get out of
enslavement and the things thatwere happening to them.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah, and it's like even today if you don't know a
thing, I would tell anybodyexpose yourself to a thing.
I can't say what a thing is,because what I need exposure to
may be different from you oranybody else, and I tend to
(42:05):
embrace everything like I did asa boy, you know so yeah, okay,
so also in the book they talkedabout Dr Champion.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
So what do you remember about Dr Champion,
which, again, I've mentionedthis in a previous podcast
episode, but yeah, I rememberthe word POTUS.
Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
And my grandmother, your great grandmother.
She would practice using thosefrom time to time.
Okay, what she remembered, andI loved it.
Somewhere along the line,somebody in Dr Champion's family
exposes man to remedies naturalremedies that work.
(42:52):
Yeah, because at the time whenyou think about it, we didn't
always have this acceptance orexposure to medical anything.
Yeah.
And with the population ofblacks now becoming doctors,
(43:12):
nurses and other acceptable,improbable lifestyles within the
medical community, I like it.
Yeah.
POTUS, and when I think about DrChampion, it was something that
he didn't leave behind when hebecame a pharmacist.
(43:37):
Yeah.
Only he added his knowledge ofthe old ways of creating them to
heal people along with hispharmaceutical practice.
You know, in some cases it mayhave been more acceptable to
people.
And then a lot of the stuff itworked.
(43:59):
Yeah.
Because you know some of us areso high and mighty now in these
days as black people.
You know when you hear peoplesay you've forgotten where you
come from yeah, a lot of us do.
It's just be real.
When you make more money, getmore education, you think
(44:22):
different, you act different andyou don't want the old ways
nowhere in existence in yourlife, your lifestyle or your
babies exposed to it.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
Which is very interesting because back then
there were natural remedies asways to heal, and now we have
advanced in technology, but somepeople are still going back to
those old ways because theydon't know what's in some of the
(44:59):
current medicine that they'retaking.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
So they'll go back to using different herbs and
things of that nature in orderto heal themselves because, yeah
, I think having a knowledge ofmaking potas, like Dr Champion
killed and sometimes practicinghis pharmaceutical career is
rather than that.
(45:28):
Other people do it outside ofthe black race and it's more
accepted, so why not ours?
But you have to be someone whohas someone like we did.
You know granting and her forbears.
When you couldn't go to ahospital like we can today, knew
(45:54):
what to do Because grandma, mygrandma, my great grandma, she
and I put saps together.
What's a sap.
A sap is something you put onto a living, having a cold or
the flu to a draw out.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Is that like when you use VIXX?
Speaker 2 (46:19):
Exactly, yeah, exactly, oh, okay, okay, and
granting and how to put thistogether, or hot toddies.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
I know what a hot toddies.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
Yes, Okay.
And because she used to givethem to me all the time, because
I was a sick little kid andwhen I got sick she knew exactly
what to do Put the sap on me.
I'm gonna make you a hot toddynight baby.
You're gonna drink every bit ofit.
Speaker 1 (46:46):
And the hot toddy had whiskey in it, right.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Not a lot, oh no, I'd love to make what was in you,
which might have been a cold, aflu or even, in this case,
pneumonia, but not extreme.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, to draw itout of you.
Yeah.
And a lot of soup.
Yeah, I don't mean just plainor as.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
No, you can curse.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
Chicken soup yeah, granted, we make that up too.
Yeah, and in some cases, broth.
Speaking of broth, I stillpractice using that, okay, okay.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
He opened up his refrigerator.
He keeps showing me things.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I keep, I keep, I remember, that's how she did it,
yeah, and in a way I stillpractice what I saw as a child.
It comes back to me.
Okay.
And it works.
Okay.
I'm not the only one, your auntthe firstborn yeah.
(47:50):
She does it too.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
Okay, so another thing that was in the book that
I mentioned was Voodoo Village.
What?
Tell us a little bit aboutVoodoo Village growing up?
Speaker 2 (48:03):
I didn't hear about the village until I was about to
come out of high school.
I was going to college, but theword Voodoo I heard throughout
my lifetime.
Okay.
My mama, her mama, were against.
(48:31):
Were against it.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Against it Okay.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah, against it, but I remember incidents where the
weather was quite turbulent likeit is now.
Being, we'll place an axe inthe middle of the floor.
It won't come, you know, wait,okay, I'll give up back in the
(48:59):
day, you know, and but thesewere things that they might have
been told or exposed to, right.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
Sounds like hudu to me.
Uh-huh, that is hudu.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Right and uh, but it's not far-fetched because if
it was being displayed as blackpeople, we were only doing what
we knew.
And then, during that time,that aspect of the black culture
(49:31):
was still practicing what theyknew.
I like to call them the ogard.
Okay, the ogard was stillpracticing what they knew with
that because hudu, voodoo orwhatever.
And then the making of poulticeand teas and stuff like that to
(49:52):
alleviate and treat elementsthat didn't require a doctor,
because you had someoneknowledgeable in the family that
knew what to do.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Like an herbalist.
Yes, okay.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
And she was.
You know who I'm talking about.
Yeah, and because if an elementcame on like the measles, the
chicken pops, a cold or a memoryas a child, I would often get
stripped off.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, because I wassusceptible to everything Mm-hmm
(50:35):
and I found out as a baby I wasthe one, I guess, being the
first.
They didn't know sometimes if Iwas gonna still be here to like
have this conversation with you, yeah.
But I got better, mm-hmm.
(50:56):
And when I got sick, yourgreat-grandmother, my
grandmother, knew what to do,and the only time when I did get
sick, or some of the girls gotsick, that's when she and I love
(51:20):
her for this.
I can't do this.
Johnny coulda doubt.
Yeah, and speaking of mygrandmother, your
great-grandmother, she worked inthe medical field.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
I know, I saw it in the newspaper.
Speaker 2 (51:36):
She was a nurse and I loved her for that, because I
see where I got it from.
Yeah, being you know that'swhat my profession was.
Yeah, and then she would be soproud to learn that certain
granddaughters of hers and mewent into something that she
(51:59):
loved.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:02):
And, yeah, I liked it , but Okay, we're gonna take
another quick break.
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