Not Digging on the Duggars

Leah & Amanda are back(ish) with an update on a few changes is the show & to talk about some new exciting things on the horizon for White Horse. Later, we break down the charges against former 19 Kids And Counting star & fundie Golden Boy Josh Duggar. Spoiler alert .,.,., He's icky!

Episode Transcript

(00:06):
Happy Mandy. Everyone, Welcome backto Mom's in Mayhem. I'm your host,
Loophole Leah, and I'm not ina loophole, Amanda wagon Seller,
And we are back for the firsttime. And I don't know how long
is the Fenwags not it's it feelslike forever, but I think it's only

(00:29):
been a couple of weeks, maybea month, maybe a month. Yeah,
it doesn't feel like Yeah, itfeels like a really long time.
But we have a lot of reallyexciting things going on and we're going to
get to that later. But I'msure you notice that it's just two of
us here, so the show istaking a little bit of a turn,

(00:52):
and Robin is not going to bewith us anymore. So she is is
blowing up with her paparazzi, rightWax. I mean she's yeah. I
think she's gone to like three orfour different rankings in the short amount of
time that she's been there. Soshe is going to be taking that and

(01:15):
running with it. And she is, from what I can see, doing
all the things. So we areexcited for her. We appreciate all the
laughs, all the stories, allthe chaos along the way, and I
know I'm excited to see how sheprogresses in this business and how she does.
And you know, we will missher, and we are so thankful

(01:40):
again for everything that she has broughtto the show. Absolutely no question,
so much hilarity and really really funnystuff. So and without her, the
show will be obviously a little bitdifferent. I mean, there is no
question that it's not going to bethe same exact show without Robin. And

(02:05):
things are changing, and that's justI mean, this is how life is.
Things just kind of evolve and peopleevolve, and Robin's doing it.
So she is. If you wantto find her, she's snatched by Robin
on Facebook. All of your paparazzijewelry needs beautiful, fun custom jewelry.

(02:25):
I personally love the little kid's earringsand I wear them myself, do you
really? Yeah, because they're cuteand their dainty, So check it out.
But yeah, we're excited for her, and we're also excited for us.
We're excited to see where this showtakes us, what we are going
to do with it. So yeah, I think, but again, the

(02:49):
show is going to be a littlebit different. So we are going to
kind of tell you what we're expectingthe show to kind of be a little
bit um, so Wags, doyou want to kind of explain what you
think is going to happen first?I'm gonna let you go first. Um,
So we and we're going to talkabout this later. We have a

(03:10):
lot of projects in the works,um, not only within Moms and Mayhem,
but White Horse Media Group as awhole, So our time is going
to be very limited. Um.But you know, I think what we
want to do hasn't been necessarily determined. I don't think we've really said,

(03:30):
like, this is how we're goingto take the show. We're just going
to let it go where it goesorganically. But we still want to bring
everything that we have been bringing youstill going to bring you incredible guests.
We we're going to talk later.We have some phenomenal people that for whatever
reason are willing to come and talkto us, like people that I never

(03:50):
thought would respond like to me slidinginto their DM. So I've gotten very
cocky. So I'm she has ideagot everyone at this point. But yeah,
so it's you know, again,it's different, but we're just gonna
go along with it, and ifthere comes a point when we decide that

(04:11):
it's not going in the direction thatwe wanted to go, we either decide
to stop change it, or youknow, we kind of make that decision.
And I'm excited to see where wego. Yeah, I'm really excited
to see where this goes. It'snot going to change completely. Look,
I mean, we are who weare, right so it's still going to
be a chaotic shit show when itcomes to my life, and it's going

(04:34):
to be a lot of wags lookingat me with her to her judge eyes
going like Leo, why do youdo this to yourself? I don't understand.
They're not judging, they're concerned.They're concerned eyes. So yeah,
I mean, at this point,we don't really know when our next episode

(04:56):
is going to come out. Again, we are pretty busy, So we're
just going to take it for whatit is, and if you would like
to continue the journey with us,we'd love to have you. We'd love
to, you know, get moreof what you want to listen to,
things that are you're interested in talkingabout, because Aliah and I agree on
a lot of things and we seethings the same and we like the kind

(05:20):
of crazy reality fundy craziness and that'sgoing to come in the next segment.
But we're also very different, sosometimes it'll be nice to have someone to
kind of balance us out and sariseour wonderful producer. We'll be joining in
on occasion with us. So we'reexcited. But I have to say,

(05:42):
there's something I'm not excited about rightnow, what seasonal allergies, because I
feel the need that I have towear a mask says allergies, not COVID
when I'm in this store. Forexample, I was in CBS the other
day and I couldn't stop sneezing.I could not stop sneezing, and then
I was coughing because I was sneezingso much. And I was like,

(06:05):
oh my god, I don't haveCOVID, Like that's not it, It's
just allergies. There were people,yeah, and I had all three kids
in tow and Brennan is like,he's good about wearing a mask, but
he had it like below his nose, like pull it up. And then
Jake, for whatever reason, decidedlike he was going to take it down.

(06:27):
And I'm like, okay, youcan take a mask break like that's
fine or not around anyone, andthen he like didn't put it back up,
and I turned around. I waslike, what are you doing?
I forgot mom, And I waslike, so now I'm sneezing, coughing,
and yelling at my children in thestore. So that sounds like a
day in the life of my life. Yeah, it totally is a very

(06:50):
Leah momentum. But I'm so thankfulthat you're you're sharing your chaos with me.
I am my aunt. My chaosis contagious. Um, it is
definitely contagious. But like the maskthing, so Jake is if Jake gonna
be ten or is he going tobe eleven? Is he the same age?
He'll be eleven in August? Okay, yeah, so so um,

(07:13):
our kids actually have very similar andsame birthdays. So Charlotte's birthday is the
fifteenth of this month, which istwo days before Nina's, and then Jake
and Gigi share birthday. They're exactlya year apart, which is kind of
awesome. So anyway, I wantedto ask you, like, Nina is

(07:35):
breaking out because she's at that ageright, like you know, puberty and
acne and stuff. So the masklike gets all like you could see it
like from wearing it all the time. Is he talking about that too?
No, he's he hasn't. Hehasn't really had any issues with that.

(07:56):
Um lucky. I also think that'smore of like a puberty a thing.
And I will not air my child'sdirty laundry, but I will tell you
that the kid has smelly armpits.And I tell him double swipe every day.
You need to swipe so that dudewrite on your armpits. Yeah,
this house, because I was like, what I thought it was me?
Because you know, sometimes I don'tget to shower till the afternoon and I

(08:20):
am sniffing my armpit. I meanI was even trying to sniff my crotched
that that odor was not resonating forme, and I'm like it has to.
It's not me. I'm like,who is it? Yeah? You
know. And my middle daughter isgoing through that phase too, and she
does not I don't know what itis, but she hates that she has
to wear it like she fights itand it's like, girlfriends, you're gonna

(08:43):
be the smelly kid in school.Like I don't want that to happen to
you. Like, just put iton at the arm and hammer like clinical
protection, like you just need tospray her, like as she's coming in
and out the door, I'm like, you just you have to wear it.
But yeah, he hasn't had thatissue. I do. Like I

(09:05):
don't get out much, but whenI do, I'm always irritated. I
always have like irritation, and thenI get like acne, like kind of
like right around you guys can't seeme. I'm touching my face right now,
but like right around like the appleson my cheeks and like down around
my mouth, and then all mychin and yeah, right under my chin.
So now I have like chin hairand acne. But I have to

(09:28):
like pluck my chin hair and thenthere's acts. So I just don't look
at me up close, like I'ma much better far away looking person,
like don't get close to me.We have this discussion before the show started
because she has seasonal allergies, andyou have them pretty bad. You've pretty
intense allergies. When they flare up, they really bother you. But it's

(09:50):
it's miraculous. Everybody I know whohas allergies, their eyes or their nose
they get puffy, right, It'slike a normal thing. Wags does not
puff when you're when you're a plussized queen, you don't need to worry
about having puffy based your face.I drink a gatorade in my fears up.

(10:18):
Oh my god, my eyes closeup close because they're they're a little
blood shut from the allergies. Butsure it's from allergies. Sure, that's
definitely, sure, definitely from allergies. So what have you met? What
have we missed? What is theaudience missed in the day in the life
of a wonky over the past month, um nothing. Honestly, we've been

(10:43):
so busy that I literally have noidea what I've accomplished and what I have
not. I have taken up puttingwallpaper up in my house, but like
random strips. So like my bathroom, my half bath downstairs is half painted
for Lucky Year because I didn't finishit. I went, honestly that I

(11:03):
couldn't get into corners because I wasbaked to fit with the sink in the
wall. So I just stopped.Um, and then I was like,
let me try this wallpaper. SoI bought wallpaper and I got it at
Walmart. So it's not like realwall it's like contact paper, like you

(11:24):
could wrap a school book with itor put it on some like random item,
but not so it's like it alreadypeeled off. Oh, it is
like one strip at the very topand all the way down. And then
I was like, I don't wantto do something with my backsplash, so
I bought more wallpaper to do thebacksplash in my kitchen. So I put

(11:48):
it up only one half. ButI couldn't get my body between the cabinets
and the counter. Literally my boobsare too big that I could not like
put myself. I was like sandwichin the needle position trying to put this
up. So I'm gonna I'm gonnatempt that again with the help of a
small child. I might have toborrow Nina, because I feel like she

(12:11):
would She would listen and she woulddo it like meticulously what I would mean.
Jake would not, He would justbe like Nina. Full disclosure,
folks, Nina is obsessed with auntWags, like literally obsessed with her.
So we're going child she is.We're gonna get into this later, but
we are going to film a moviein August, and the movie is based

(12:37):
around a young girl and we haveno money. So Nina is our star,
which thank you, Jeff for makingmy daughter even more of a diva
than she already fucking is. Butshe is a star. She is she
thinks she is, but she getsto spend more time getting to know everybody

(13:00):
m and with Wags. She justshe's been around Wags quite a bit,
but every time there's just something thereor that, she just adores Wags like
she adores you. And she actuallysaid to me once, Megan, if
you're listening, I'm sorry, butshe actually said, I love Aunt Megan,

(13:20):
and I love Aunt Deane Dreams mysister, but Aunt Wags is my
favorite. Don't tell anybody I saidthat I love Aunt Wags. Take that.
I'm not humble at all. Wagslike you treat her like an adult
is what it is, you reallydo. You treat her like an adult
and she just absolutely loves that.But so if you asked her to do

(13:43):
like wallpaper, it would be donelike like perfectly. It'd be like Project
Makeover level shit. If I askedher to do it, it would sit
on the floor for two days andshe would sit there on her phone texting
someone. So you can try andstick her into your nook and cranny and
have her do it for you,but it will be a project among projects.
So I like the wallpaper idea.Yeah, I mean it's if you

(14:09):
do, if you have the timeand you can deal with working out the
bubbles and everything and lining everything up. It's a great way to like spice
up an area. I don't knowspice up an area is the right word,
but like it's a it's a nicespruce, spruce, spruce it up.
If anybody wants to join us thathas vocabulous, well, well we

(14:33):
will always take someone. Like wouldn'tthat be something someone could just pop on
and be like the word you're lookinggreg starter, Uh, I didn't need
you to sit on Man's and justgive us better words to you. Yeah,
just pop in and be like theword you're looking for is spruce and
then just disappear you just like alittle cloud bubble. He just comes in
and goes out. But yeah,I think I think wallpaper is a great

(14:56):
way to just kind of change thingsup. And it's not permanent. You
know, you can still take itdown now when you take if you've ever
taken wallpaper off, you know it'sa bitch. Yeah, Yeah, it's
it's a pain in the ass.But if you get good quality and you
put it up, it looks nice. So yeah, I mean, other

(15:18):
than that, this really went offon a tangent. I'm not really.
We're just busy and I'm working andi have kids, and I'm trying to
like figure out what the hell I'mdoing with my life, and I'm going
to therapy sometimes twice a week.Um, so I'm tired of myself,
Like I'm really tired of myself.I'm I'm starting to analyze other people in

(15:39):
my life because I feel like Ihave a new set of skills with my
new therapist that like, oh,you want to analyze me. That's scary.
Maybe I would like to keep myfriendship with you, so I don't
now And in all I think,in all honesty, I think over the
last couple of months, I've startedunderstanding more. And I said this on

(16:02):
our last episode where I cried halfthe time, that I've realized that a
lot of times I put my emotionsand my expectations on other people, and
I can't do that, Like youcan't. You can't make someone be the
way that you want them to be. There's nothing wrong with you, that's
who you are. You're going tobe late, You're going to piss someone

(16:26):
off by something that you say whenyou don't even realize that you're doing it.
That's just who you are. AndI'm learning to just love and accept
that. Not that I didn't before, but like I understand, Like if
you don't text me back, I'mgoing to give you twenty four hours and
then I'm going to be like,where the hell are you. I'm going
to come and burn down your house. I think that that far. But

(16:49):
you know a lot better about respondinglately. I have, you have and
it's because I told you this ishow I feel when you don't talk to
me, or not that when youdon't talk to me. But like,
if I have something I need tosay to you, I and this is
everyone in my life. Like ifI'm putting my emotion out there and I'm

(17:11):
giving my piece of myself to you, regardless if it's a quick text message
or ad paragraphs long, I justwant to be acknowledged. I just want
to say, Okay, I gotit, I understand right right. Yeah,
So that's not necessarily I don't wantpeople to think I'm saying that's you.
I'm just saying that's in general ingeneral, but it makes it easier

(17:34):
because we you and I are verydifferent. I want to just take everything
on and fix everything, and youneed your time to process. So yeah,
and that's just everything. That's anevery day like I'm very impulsive,
which, by the way, Idid my official testing for adhd oh really

(17:56):
and add yeah, I haven't gotthe results back at the last appointment that
I had with my therapist was likedollars, girlfriend, Yeah, I think
and I like explain things in likeschool and childhood, and they were like,
yeah, yeah, you you've probablyhad this for a while, but

(18:18):
you have to be like officially diagnosed. So it's starting to make sense.
Like I just want to Okay,what do you want me to do.
Let's do it right now. Right. Not everyone's like that, no,
but it definitely um that part ofwho you are is I'm gonna say eighty
five, if not more, percentof why we're able to do what we

(18:41):
do at white Horse. And I'mserious, Like you are crying, I'm
gonna leave the show and it's justgoing to be used to make me cry.
Oh do you listen if it's justme? One person said, we'll
listen out of hate, out ofhate exactly. But yeah, like you

(19:06):
are just so like on top ofyour shit, like you want to get
it done. You want to getit done. Now you have like we
have no idea. We're always flyingby the seat of our pants with TEA.
But Wags, thank Wags, we'renot. It's like Wags is like,
you're doing this episode next week onthis the outlines are made in advance.
It's amazing. She is our hero. You read what I want and

(19:27):
I'm manically typing in the group chator the side chat, oh while we're
recording and say this, and they'relike, why don't you just come on?
And I was like, it's notmy show, but to say this.
Yeah, she tells us what tosay. We have an interview on
tee with m A State Representative MaryIsaacson, which oh god, it was

(19:48):
so good. I was so fuckingnervous, like sick to my stomach,
nervous, like worse than my veryfirst interview with Jake and Cathy, like
really really scared um. But Waxwas like, skip question two and three
and move up like to the sidechat, and I was like I didn't
even know what to do. BecauseI was an outline and I was reading

(20:08):
it exactly. I was so nervous. That wasn't me. That was Greg
Sterner. Oh that was Sterner.I can't take credit for that. I
would have said that, but heYeah, that was Sterner. I was
so scared. I was. Butit was a great interview. If you
guys don't listen to Tea, youshould. She's she was an amazing woman.
And thank you Representative Isaacson for comingon our show and talking to us.

(20:30):
By the way, that was socool, honestly, And Dad was
going to bring that up when Iasked you, like about what's going on
with you? So when we stoppedtalking about me, oh sorry, it's
like about me now, let's goto Leah. But yeah, I mean,
how was that? It was?You? Like? That was a
big big deal because she's not onlyin the House A Representatives, like doing

(20:56):
the work every day in sessions,doing all that, but she's also incredibly
passionate about what she's doing. She'sjust not showing up to show up.
She's showing up to do the damnwork. So I like, how was
that? I know you were nervousand you were anxious, and I was
there. I was there producing,But how was that for you? Just

(21:18):
to hear someone kind of almost likereiterate and kind of give like a sense
of Okay, I understand how youfeel and this is how I want to
how to make it better. Howwas that for you? It was?
It was an incredible feeling. There'sno other way to explain it. Like
I if you guys don't know,I am a political junkie. So we

(21:41):
don't really talk about it on thisshow much because I get that out on
Tea, right, I don't haveto do it there. But I am
extremely far left and I am passionateabout politics. So to be able to
speak to someone that isn't just sayingit, she's actually living it and actually

(22:03):
doing it and working so hard foryears to be to better our state as
a whole. And I think shereally believes in what she's doing and for
sure, and she's on the twocommittees that she's on, she is on
the environmental and education, which aretwo huge hot button issues for me.

(22:30):
I was nervous for months leading upto it, but I almost wanted to
not be there, like to notdo the questions. I wanted to be
you. I would have loved tojust sit back and listen to it because
it was in the moment there wereso many things running through my head you
want to ask them, but wehad a specific outline because we only had

(22:51):
her for so much time, andyeah, we didn't want to do any
gotcha questions, even if it wasaccidental, we didn't want that. So
afterwards, when listening back to it, it was like, oh, I
should have asked her this, andI should have asked her this, and
you know what I mean those things. But she is an amazing woman,

(23:11):
I think, and it was justsuch a really cool experience to have a
legit politician and who gets to havethat kind of conversation with with your political
leaders in such an intimate you know, setting in a in a real way.
It was it was a very uniqueexperience. It's probably my favorite thing

(23:33):
we've done so far on any othershows. I think it was just really
cool to experience. For me.Yeah, I think it not everything that
you said I completely agree with.And I also think when she was asked
about what happened at the Capitol thatand so moving it. It was so

(23:56):
powerful in this sense that she waslike very like open and you know,
she put herself in a situation whereit wasn't like, Okay, I'm just
going to be a politician and saywhat you want to hear, you know,
she said this was very serious andlike this really affected her and her

(24:18):
colleagues. And when she said,she said something along the lines of the
Capitol Building is for the people,like this is people's building. It's the
people's building. And I feel likethat is such a powerful statement in this
sense that it wasn't just an itwasn't just a let's show up and make

(24:41):
our voices heard. It was alegitimate attack on the American people, the
same people that the cowards that showedup to Carl's arm exactly, That's exactly
what it is. So when shethought, I was like almost like like
I felt like validated, And yeah, that I felt because you hear politicians,

(25:06):
Democrats and some very few, veryfew Republicans who make who have made
those statements. But when you're havinga conversation and you hear someone who was
not only like I said, she'sjust not someone that shows up and just
does work. She shows up.Yeah, like all caps shows up.
She does. And that is sotrue about that. The part that really

(25:29):
got me is when she was sayingthat she has armed military officers walking around
with you know, machine guns guardingthe Pennsylvania Capitol Building, and she's like,
I don't like having them there,but I really don't like that.
What I really don't like is thatthey have to be there, that there's
a reason for that. And thething about her too is Jeff Astor.

(25:52):
At the end, it was like, I wouldn't be doing my job if
I didn't ask, or do youwant to run for governor? And she
gave a very I think the standardpolitical answer. You know, I'm happy
where I'm at. However, Ithink that she meant that, oh right,
yeah, that was sincere. Thatwas she knows she's doing the right
work and she's in the right places. And I think, yeah, I

(26:15):
think more people in politics should knowtheir place, yea, Like you know
where they are best serve and wherethey best serve the people who put them
in that position. She cares abouther constituents, not her ambitions, and
I think that's what we need inpoliticians. She was just I can't say
enough about her. She's she's amazing. I would vote for if she ran

(26:37):
for governor. I would because Ithink she's so great at what she does.
She has a great track record,She's amazing. So and kudos to
our very own Abby Starner, yesforgetting us that interview. Thank you,
Abby, you are our I don'teven know what was she like the mascot.
I don't even know what we wouldcall her. I don't think we

(26:59):
should call her be the masket ofwhite doors. Um. She may not
appreciate that, but she she wouldprobably appreciate being a valuable asset to our
team. That's that's much better,wagset and better. Yes, that's why
Leah has me here in my life, so she doesn't just start calling people

(27:22):
white. Of course, I thinkwe should take a little bit of a
break. I agree with you.I think it's break time here from our
sponsors, and when we come back, we are going to run down the
achiness. Josh Trucker. Yes,yes, and Um, I will pretense

(27:47):
this that this conversation is trigger warning. Across the board. There will be
conversation and discussion about um sexual abuseand related to children. So if you
are not in a place that youwere able to hear that, just skip
through and get us at the endfor our ending segment. And it's it's

(28:12):
yeah, we'll be right back.Welcome back to Moms and Mayhem. So
Wags and I are here to discussJosh Jugger. So, like we said
in the beginning, trigger ikey warning, I'm just gonna say it. This

(28:33):
guy is a fucking predator. Thereis no other way to put it.
And he has been enabled his entirelife. And we'll go through the rundown
and we'll give our opinions at theend. But I think Jim, Bob
and Michelle Dugger are just as guiltyas Josh. So what, Wags,

(28:56):
you did some fabulous notes on this, and I'm going to let you run
it down and I'll throw in somecommentary here and there, but I think
you should take it from here.Okay. So again, I'm one more
trigger because these things trigger me,and I make the conscious decision to have

(29:19):
the conversation because I know it's importantand not everyone follows stories like this like
we do. But again, itbefore I go into this list, it
goes to show that there are peoplelike Josh Dugger everywhere and what these predators

(29:41):
are capable of as much more thanmost people can comprehend. And yeah,
it's just a little bit easier becausehe's in the limelight. But just just
keep that in mind. So hewas arrested last week the end of April.
So he was arrested on charges ofpossessing and receiving child pornography. According

(30:07):
to court docs, the material hepossessed depict it sexual abuse of children under
twelve. Just as a note thathe has previously admitted to fondling in quotations
other miners, sisters, babysitters,but asked for forgiveness. So before you
go further on that one, that'san important thing to remember. If anybody

(30:30):
doesn't know who the Duggers are,little backtrack. They are the family from
the TLC reality show I believe itended with nineteen kids and Counting started with
like seventeen and there's a new showcalled Counting on which Josh is not on.
He was kicked off the show atsome point because it was exposed that

(30:56):
he had molested three of his sistersand a babysitter. Charges were filed by
a babysitter, but there were statuteof limitation issues and also his parents.
You can go on YouTube or whereverand you can see the interviews where his

(31:17):
parents discuss that they did not callthe police, they did not send him
to therapy. In this religion,that they are fundamental Christians, they believe,
they don't believe in mental health atall. In any way, there
is no such thing as a mentalhealth. So to them, they sent

(31:37):
him to a priest and he prayedabout it. That is what happened.
He asked for forgiveness. Yeah,and the Lord and this is a patriarchal
society and his sisters were forced tolive with him afterwards and have a relationship

(31:57):
with him afterwards because the men arein charge. I'll just remember that,
keep going. So UM. Afederal agent testified this past Wednesday that multiple
pornographic images, including toddlers, weredownloaded to a computer that was located at
a car dealership that Josh owned aroundMay twenty nineteen. Josh and his father,

(32:22):
Jim Bob. Yes. So backin regards to UM, the computer,
So, Josh had previously cheated onhis wife, yes, actually scandal,
Yes, and in doing so partof his and he admitted that he

(32:43):
had a sexual addiction to pornography.Um, which we'll get into that a
little bit later. The definitions ofthat kind of stuff, Um, so
in order to kind of make everyonefeel better, he had his computer setup
that anything he was working on anythingon that computer, there would be reports

(33:07):
that would go to his wife Anna, just to kind of prove like,
hey, I'm not doing this wellanyone that has any inkling to technology and
Lee and I are not. That'snot us. However, So on this
computer, actually I put in mynotes, I put this bastard and she

(33:30):
did this is not my this isnot my official reporting. Installed a system
to allow his computer basically to havetwo hard drives, so like a left
and a right. So on theleft side he was doing work work for
his his car dealership, legitimate businesstransactions whatever that those were what was going

(33:52):
on. Report on the other sideis where he was downloading, receiving whatever
to these horrific, abusive, sexuallyabusive images. According to the officials that
are involved, the evidence is saidto be some of the worst that they

(34:12):
have seen. Think about that,these are FBI agents, US marshals.
Yeah, these are people that haveseen this kind of shit, some of
the worst they have ever seen it. So let's go. So that's what
is known so far, um andI will I will gladly share some links

(34:34):
in the description of the show towhere I got some of this information.
Um, I do look at theactual news, but there are YouTubers that
I do follow that I believe,um um Emily the lawyer that I know.
Leah is not a huge fan ofEmily. Yes, she's given some
and I trust what she's reporting becauseshe is a lawyer and she's taking it
from that. But also Katie Joy, Katie Joy has followed this story for

(34:58):
a very long time, not thisstory in particular, but has followed the
Duggers. She actually in twenty intwenty nineteen, she was saying that there
was an FBI raid and blah blahblah. In her room was like,
there's nothing to it. There's nothingto it. So she's known for two
years. So yeah, and shehas Yeah, she has some um professional

(35:21):
I would say, relationship with somepeople associated with the Duggers where a cousin,
one of the cousins. Yeah,yeah, that I believe that she's
actually And again, if you wantto get into more detail about those specific
things, we're not going to goover them right now, but you can
go and we'll again we'll put linksto where you can go to find breakdown
because I'm telling you there are pagesand pages and pages of this um so

(35:45):
to the plea in the bond.So he pled not guilty, of course.
UM. I want to add thisin here. I didn't put this
on the on the notes, butI want to add that there was some
discussion that Okay, yeah, thoseimages were on his computer, but they
were not his. Right. Therewas a discuss a co worker, a

(36:06):
landscaper. He didn't know the name, he didn't know when he was working
there, but he said someone elsehad done that. Someone else, a
landscaper. I believe, and Icould I could be wrong. Um,
but someone else went and essentially programmedhis computer to have two separate everything right,

(36:27):
So keep that in mind. Sothe judge granted him bond with the
third party custodian. With addition tothat there's no contact of miners, including
siblings, nieces and nephews. Heis allowed to have contact with his children
under the supervision of his wife.Yeah. The custodians are friends of Jim

(36:53):
Bob and Michelle Dugger. They aremembers of this um cult. It's a
cult. There's no other way toput it. So, according to the
ruling, he's allowed to leave thehouse. He's not allowed to have access
to any internet devices, guns,drugs, alcohol. According to the ruling,

(37:14):
he's allowed to leave the house forchurch and work. His hearing is
set for July sixth, So weare now beginning of May. Yes,
so until July six who knows whatelse is going to be happening. So

(37:35):
first off, before we go intoour specific commentary, I want to say
that when you say when I hearchild pornography, it makes me gross,
feel gross, but not in thesense of oh my god, child pornography.
When I think of porn, Ithink about consensual porn pleasure. I

(37:58):
don't think about someone taking pictures ofchildren videos of children as something that people
can view for entertainment. Yet thisis not pornography. Yeah, I get,
this is sexual abuse. This isit is documented sexual abuse without a
doubt anybody watching it, And youcan go back and listen to Teat and

(38:22):
hear our thoughts about it on ourepisode about pedophilia. If you are looking
at I won't even call it childpornography because I think that's a bad word.
I think pornography, like you said, is too consenting adults um in
most cases, So right, rightright, depending on what you want,

(38:45):
and an adult watching it, everyonedoing involved is consensual. If there are
children involved in it, there isno ability to give consent. Therefore it
is not pornography. It is isThere has to be another word for it.
It's assaults. Every time you lookat it, you are assaulting that

(39:06):
child. Continue. Yeah, so, and I again going back to that
that episode of Teeth was heated.I actually had to step away from producing
because I was I was not eveninvolved in the conversation, and I was
so overwhelmed with emotion and rage,honestly because I understood where where other people

(39:29):
were trying to give examples of this. This is a disease. But this
is the problem that people like JoshDugger have the ability to receive. Who
knows, maybe even make his ownI don't want to make that assumption.

(39:52):
I don't want anyone to slander melawsuit for that. But at this point,
so my first my first question iswhy the fuck is he out?
Why is he out? But notonly is he out, he's under the
care of family, friends, withthe ability to leave to go to church

(40:13):
and work and to see his children, his minor children. His children are
the same ages of the children thathe had acted of sexual abuse. He
has six children. His wife ispregnant with her seventh child. I kind
of want to get into that fora little minute, for a quick minute.

(40:36):
A lot of people are asking whyAnna Dugger stays by her man.
Anna Dugger was raised in this cult. And Bill Gothard is the leader of
this who kind of he formed thissect of fundamental Christianism, and he is

(41:00):
a fucking sociopath and a total misogynist. This is a misogynistic society. And
really quick one of the things thatthey truly believe is that if Anna Dugger
were to leave her husband, shewould have to put her kids, she
would have to get a job,and she would have to put her kids
into the public school system. Theybelieve that the public school system, they

(41:23):
are taught, they are indoctrinated,not believed. This is indoctrinate indoctrination,
that the children in public school willimmediately be tempted by the devil, they
will lose all belief in God.And if she is not home, this
is in the teachings of the church. If she is not living at home

(41:45):
with her father in law or herfather or her husband, she will be
raped and murdered by someone because shedoes not have a man to protect her.
That is what they are taught.So my skin crawl. Oh my
gosh, I know, I know. It is so repulsive, and I

(42:06):
am definitely one of those people thatbelieves, like, just fucking leave,
how are you? And a lotof people are like, how is she
not putting her children first? Inher eyes, she is by staying with
her husband, she is protecting herchildren. That is how deep this indoctrination

(42:27):
and abuse goes and wags and Ihad discussed, um, we want to
talk about this further, but wereally would like to wait until we have
Sharie with us. I would loveto get her her thoughts on this.
Do you agree? Oh yeah,yeah, for sure. Because Sharis and
people like her who have been inreligions that are very specific and very yeah

(42:59):
do this or nothing like this?Is that you don't have an option.
I've read a lot of things aboutpeople saying that they feel sorry for Anna,
that she is essentially an abused woman. That's how I feel. I
don't disagree, but I also feelat some point you have to you have

(43:23):
to read the signs and if youaren't capable of doing that, and this
is all out there, even ifit's to say, you know what,
I'm not going to let the childrensee you. And if you are truly
innocent, then you should be okaywith that, just like I get innocent
until proven guilty. That was somethingelse I wanted to touch on. I

(43:47):
get that, I understand why it'sin our justice system, and this is
something that again was brought again.You guys have to go back and listen
to the episode of TEA about pedophiliaand we could put a link in here.
Excuse me about that if you ifyou were innocent and you were being

(44:09):
accused of this, I personally woulddo whatever I needed to do if it
meant that I had to stay injail for X amount of time because it
loves children, Because it's that serious. This is not a drug crime.
This is not you had some weedon you or you had a dui all

(44:30):
things that could be very serious.But this is like the worst or the
worst. Like to me, thisis worse than murder. This is the
worse than taking someone's life, likeby killing them, because you ruined life.
Those children in those those photos,they're in some cases they're dead they

(44:52):
just don't know it yet. They'rejust breathing. And yeah, and you're
facilitating that act, whether you're lookingat it or you're taking the photos,
you have a hand in ending andruining that life. It's that simple,
m But what came up in thatteed episode was about voluntarily having a chemical

(45:15):
castration. It's to me, thisis the same thing if if you and
again you have to listen to it. I'm not going to tell you what
it was said because it was thatgood. You had me looking her oh
um, but you should almost wantto do that, Like why is this
man allowed to be out? Whyis he allowed to I mean, if

(45:38):
if these things are happening with hiswife being present, how is she a
good supervisor for that. I'm notsaying she's a bad mother. I am
not mom shaming her at all whenit comes to this, but there has

(45:58):
there has to be something again,and this is a conversation for another day.
So I don't well, and Ihave a problem with the judge allowing
him to see his children because itis on record he has admitted that he
has molested his own sisters. It'snot that far the leap to think that

(46:25):
he would do it to his ownchild? Why put the children in that
situation? And he has siblings andso he lives on the Dugger compound.
He lives like in a warehouse onhis parents' property. His siblings live on
that property that are miners. Theyoungest one, Josie, is like Nina

(46:51):
and Jake's age, maybe a littlebit older. Yeah, I think the
judge was I don't know. Ithink this is an example of money and
power, because the Duggers have alot of it in Arkansas. Yeah,
I mean, could you imagine likethe people that took him in, like,

(47:12):
oh, yeah, we'll take him. You can't tell me that they
are not benefiting from doing this fromthe Dugger people. Absolutely, I meant
there has to be Again, thisis a conversation that we'll get into later
another time. But that's the information. That's where it's at now. And

(47:34):
I feel like for anyone that's everhad to be put in into a position
where their abuser is free to walkaway, even if that child does not
know that he is viewed, justto know that that is out there.
And I'm sorry, you can ifyou can get cell phones and I can

(48:00):
watch prison TikTok. Yeah, youcan't tell me that he is not going
to have access to something. Andthat is a long time to wait until
this trial. I get it,it takes forever to get a hearing.
We all know that situation. ButI'm very curious to see what comes out

(48:21):
of this and how far this goes, because I feel like he is just
the top of the iceberg, kindof like he is just right there.
And if they've been looking at thissince twenty nineteen, all of those all
of those different you know, governmentagencies are involved in law enforcement, that

(48:45):
that doesn't happen with the blink ofan eye, like there's it's going to
be so much deeper. And Ijust I hope he spends the rest of
his life in prison personally, andthat has happened where you know, they're
charged for each photograph and they getso much time for each each download or

(49:08):
whatever. I hope that's what happenswith this guy. Because the family has
already proved that they're just going tosweep it under the rug and pretend it
doesn't exist. That's all they willdo. There is no help. He's
not going to see a psychiatrist becausethey don't believe it. It is a

(49:30):
sin. It is an absolute sin. Psychiatrists are an aspect of the devil
in this religion. We should doan episode where we talk about Bill Gothard
and his beliefs. I think thatmight be interesting. Maybe maybe Sharis should
do it on her show and we'llpop on with her. Because it's it's

(49:54):
I can't it's I can't even explainit to me. It's the worst of
the worst when it comes to thefundis. Yeah, and I again,
we're gonna follow this story as aswe're able to, primarily because we're both
interested in it anyway. So ifwe're going to have a conversation, why
not record it. And if youhave a different opinion or you have anything

(50:17):
you want to share in addition tothat, like share that with us.
We would love to talk to otherpeople, normal everyday people about it.
And I just want to kind ofput a little disclaimer at the end here
for those of you who don't knowwhat RAIN is. RAIN is Rape Abuse

(50:37):
and Incests National Network, and theyare a pretty incredible organization that provides support
and help, and we will Icould actually probably even put them give you
the number now in there, becauseagain, sometimes people don't know that they're

(50:58):
being abused. They don't know thatwhat they're experiencing is abuse. And if
he's capable of doing this in thecapacity that is being put forth now,
you just don't know. So againif the number, and I just feel

(51:19):
like this is very personal to me, it's one eight six five six Hope,
which is four seven sixty three.Again, an organization that you can
donate money too. They offer alot of resources therapy. I just imagine
that if your picture of you asa child ends up in this sexual abuse

(51:42):
network of trafficking pictures and despicable things, and you become an adult one day
and you find out that your picturewas used in something like that, I
mean, it goes so much deeper. And even if again, even if
the children never know that the pictureshave been taken or shared, there's still

(52:04):
a victim, absolutely, and weneed to protect them, and we need
to protect any child that comes after. And on that, I think we
should end it there, and we'regonna take a quick break and we'll be
right back with the end of theshow. And we're back with the end

(52:28):
of the show. So again wedon't have ending segments for you, because,
like we said, we're kind ofI don't want to say revamping the
show, because we're still going tohave them. We just don't know exactly
what they're going to be or howthat's gonna work. I think if you're

(52:49):
a listener and you like a certainending segment or don't like one, let
us out go on our social mediaand let us know what we should keep
or shouldn't keep. And so,I mean, I want to keep some
of them, but maybe there's somebetter ones out there. Maybe some of
our listeners have an idea for usor something. Wags, what do you
think? Yeah, I'm all,I'm all for that. We're just giving

(53:10):
you like on demand, ma'am's rightnow, like when we're able to grace
you with our beautiful, wonderful presence, right we will? I we do.
Wags has Um been booking guests left, right and center, and people
are like, sure, sure,we'd love to, like do you know

(53:34):
who I am? Did we sureyou want to come on our show?
Are you? Yeah? It's it'sactually been incredible, And I contribute this
to my mental breakdown and also mymental wellness progress that I'm making that I'm
just going for it like the worstthey can do is say no or ignore
me, right, But I mean, I I think especially I want to

(54:00):
talk to people that are fascinating tome, and I think that our listeners
would be interested in talking to AndI want to talk to people that maybe
I have no idea what they door how they do it, but I
want to learn more from them.And I think that we have this opportunity
that we can bring people on thatwant to share their story, They want

(54:23):
to share their experiences, and theywant to share their trade, kind of
taking an example from leaders by design, just having people that are just badass
and what they do and just havinga conversation. So some of it will
be like it will be like havinga guest co host on and other times

(54:43):
it will be an interview. Butif there's someone that I'm drawn to,
I know that Leah is going tobe interested in them, and that our
listeners are going to be interested.And then if you're not, like,
then don't listen. But the peoplethat we have, like I'm telling you
that there are some names that aregoing to come on our show that you're

(55:06):
gonna be like, oh my gosh, like I know who that person is.
And then they're going to be namesthat come on our show that you're
not going to know who they are, but you're immediately going to be a
fanatism Yeah, And I mean welive in a time that we are literally
a few clicks, a few sometaps away from connecting with with anyone Brian

(55:30):
and Christina Rigi exactly. Codan apparentlyis not doing his show anymore. There
was some speculation about his show ending. I don't know, Like I called
him and I left him a veryserious message from Pookie in Paradise, So
I may have to just keep callinghim. You may have to. Maybe
he'll maybe he'll want to come workunder White Horse. That's what we should

(55:51):
offer him. Keep bring him onhere, Like he doesn't call Jeff back,
but he comes on. MAM's like, ah, that'd be amazing.
I just want that because, honestly, and this is so cheesy and so
cliche, but at the end ofthe day, this is like our baby,
this is our our love child togetherand I've been saying I want a

(56:13):
baby. Maybe this is just whatit is. Maybe we just have to
nurture to this podcast and we bothuse it as an outlet, as a
therapy session and a lot of times. The conversations that we have now and
then I know that we plan onhaving in the future is just going to
be eavesdropping on a conversation between bestfriends, and like, I can't believe

(56:36):
that they actually air that. Yeah, a lot of it's good to beat
that, Like, like Leah hadthe great idea to teach me how to
edit episodes, so I may haveto pool Aliah and just leave some stuff
in just for shifts and giggles,but absolutely should. That's the where Shoe
is just a Leah out of everythingjust because of me talking to myself.

(57:00):
I mean, the possibilities are endless. But yeah, we have we have
that, and then we talked aboutearlier. We have Girl on the Farm,
which is um and I'm completely unbiasedat this point wink wink, But
truly, the script is incredible.It's dark, it's twisty, but it's

(57:20):
also really fucking powerful and you're makingme cry with reading the words on the
page. It's good. Let's justput it that way. Like, and
I have read it now at leastfifteen or sixteen times. Um. It's

(57:40):
intense and it's so well written,and I am so so proud of Jeff
and Sterner like, oh my gosh, absolutely, this is the best thing
they've done, clearly the best thingthey've done. It is so I don't
know, I can't. I feellike a I don't even know what,

(58:01):
like a giddy schoolgirl about it.I'm so proud of both of them.
It's it's and Jeff's constantly telling meI'm biased, but I can see when
something's good, and this is reallygood and I really hope the audience likes
it as much as we do becauseit is so good. It really is.
I I definitely it's it's a storythat's that's different, but it's also

(58:28):
relatable to times and to you know, it has some similarity similarities to other
shows and movies that are out there, but it's a different twist on it.
And again, I think when whenit's done, or when we have
the opportunity to share a little bitof it before we take it to film
festivals, like we're taking a moviethat we are working on, like what

(58:52):
right? Use me? Um?And I'm allowed to say this and not
be a stage mom, but Ninamakes me so proud when we are doing
these table reads. She's I mean, she's almost eleven, she's so good
and she's reading the script and youcan hear the emotion and the first table

(59:15):
read, I cried when she wasreading her lines and just reading them,
not acting, just reading them becauseI could picture her in the moment when
we are filming. I was like, I can't be doing this. I
need to get these emotions out nowbefore we are filming, because the last
thing that anyone needs, especially Rick. It's like he's already looking forward to

(59:42):
yelling at us, but I don'twant to give him any more reason to
do that. But it's I amjust I'm so proud of her, Like
I can't even imagine actually being hermother and to hear her and to know
and again it's it's it's dark.It's it's it's very it's very dark.
And she is giving ideas that I'mlike, girl, Yeah, I was

(01:00:07):
like even impressed. Yeah, wellwhat if we did this? And does
she feel this? And I feelthat this is happening. There's there's a
character in it. Jeff plays herfather, um, and there's another character
in it. And it wasn't writtento be romantic, but and Stirner's like

(01:00:32):
every woman that reads it though,gets this kind of icky cheating vibe a
little bit, kind of a littlebit, and Nina picked up on it.
Oh, Nina was like yeah andadded something to it like it was
her that was like, could wemaybe like if she hears this, maybe
she responds this way. And Iwas so impressed by her. I didn't

(01:00:54):
see that coming. I didn't knowshe was going to say that. I
was so proud of her. Iwas blown away by that. So yeah,
I had I was like, whoyou like? And then you know,
just you know, this is somethingI've never done before. I mean,
I was a supporting actress in theHouse Troll yes and too. I

(01:01:15):
didn't do that. You were amattress actress and actress literally literally a mattress
actress. I'm dead in this one, which is beautiful, so spoiler alert,
but you know, just to seehow things progress, and I don't

(01:01:35):
want to go into too much detail, and I don't want to keep talking
about teat because apparently that's what we'redoing today. But we did a little
impromptu like behind the scenes episode lastweek, so this time it'll be two
weeks ago about kind of like what'sgoing on, and there's more information about
some of the projects that we're workingon there. But it's it's that thing
like you don't know that you're passionateabout something until you're given the opportunity to

(01:02:01):
do it, and then you're like, this is really good, like this
is what I want, this iswhat I want to do. And then
to hear Nina again, she's noteven eleven yet, and she's like,
this is how I feel, ormaybe my character can do this because this
is what I would do, right, And Jeff and Starner weren't writing it

(01:02:22):
as an eleven year old girl.They don't know what it's like to be
an eleven year old girl. Andthe fact that Nina is capable and she
has that mindset and that insight tobe like, well, this is what
I would do, and that's onlygoing to add to it. So I
am so excited for our audience tobe able to see it, but I'm
really excited to get it out thereto other people, because again, I

(01:02:45):
know it seems like we're biased andwe're tooting her own motherfucking horn, But
it's good. It's good. Itis so good. And to what you
said, I wasn't on that episodeof TEA And if you get a chance
go listen. It's it's the WhiteHorse Media backstage past episode of Teat.
It's actually one of my favorite episodesof all the podcasts M mostly because Sterner

(01:03:08):
and and Wags just tell tell theworld how wonderful I am but also believe.
But also m Wags makes a reallygood point that you know, Jeff
brought us all together and he isHe allowed us all to kind of live

(01:03:31):
a dream we didn't know we had. UM and it's not even just us
anymore. It's my daughter, UM. And that's just so cool. It's
such a really fucking cool experience andso beautiful to watch and um even more
beautiful to lift. So you know, kudos the Jeff and Starner for giving

(01:03:52):
us this opportunity. It's it's awesome. I'm excited about it. And we
have we also have another really bigthing that we can't go into too much
detail about, but we have createda reality show that we are pitching to
actual like fucking networks, which islike unfucking real. So that's why we're

(01:04:20):
so busy. We're busy doing thisstuff, making movies and doing other stuff.
Yeah, I mean, it wasliterally an opportunity that was like presented
to us, and it's like,either you do this or you don't,
or you know someone else will likeit's that kind of a good idea.
So we we are. We arevery busy, but we are also UM

(01:04:45):
very appreciative of being being busy,being as busy as we are, because
I mean, just know that ifwe're if we're not putting out ma'am at
episodes, we are seriously working untilwee hours in the morning doing everything because

(01:05:06):
of course everything is on a timecrunch. Everything. Of course, everything
is very time sensitive, and we'restill trying to live through a fucking pandemic.
So get your fucking vaccine. Yes, yes, I get backsided,
don't a predator, don't abuse children. Yeah, get your vaccine. Oh

(01:05:27):
and vote. The primaries are comingup. Yeah, that's important. Also,
UM, pay attention because when wedo come back at some point,
we flags and I are going onvacation with UM, the Sterners and Jeff
and we're taking all of our childrento the outer Banks and it is going

(01:05:47):
to be a shit show come tolife. And I just can't wait for
all that. So I'm sure we'regonna have talk about I was under the
impression that UM you mean, Abby, we're going on vacation and starner and
death. We're keeping all the kids, So I may need to have my
people talk to your people because Idon't. I was in for the ship

(01:06:11):
show that was going to be daddyDaycare. Oh that's that's totally gonna happen.
They don't know it. It's justhappen at the beach like they're gonna.
Okay, yeah, so we Imean, we have we have we
have work stuff, we have lifestuff, we have all of this stuff.
Um, but we're going to bedoing it together and we are going

(01:06:33):
to give you all of it,good, bad and different. Um typically
probably not bad. I think weare you know, we are going to
respect our own boundaries and share whatwe want to share when we share it.
And I think and I don't think. I know. I'm excited and

(01:06:55):
I'm ready to take on the motherfuckingworld. I couldn't agree more so the
show. Um, as of rightnow, like I said, we have
at least five people that have agreedto come on, So we're gonna do
some interviews and it'll be just usshooting the ship too. Um, but

(01:07:16):
we're hoping that we can put itout bi weekly as of right now at
the very least, Um, butyou know that may not happen, but
we're gonna try bi weekly and ifnot, I don't know, you'll hear
our voices at some point just thethose are too narcissistic to stop doing it.
What's going to happen is, youknow, Pip is also kind of

(01:07:39):
in the same boat as ma'am isthat we're just kind of taking the time
and the same people are all theshows involved somehow, Um, so I
foresee what's going to happen is we'renot going to let teet go at this
point. We're gonna still keep pumpingout teat so I may just put myself
on screen a little bit more.Now there you go. You see irrelevant
things you like, and this iswhat's going on in the It'll be like

(01:08:02):
something completely not related, like Ineed to speak, I need my airtime.
I was really gassy today and we'regoing to talk about that right now,
Like that's gonna be back. Idid some time traveling, Okay,
I just get on and I'd belike, what do you guys want to
guess this underneath my boobs today?Like what I'm doing in there Oh,

(01:08:24):
can we do a teat episode ofWhat's the Bonky's Teets? An investigative piece,
a detective mount that mounts has togo inspect them. He gets lost
there. You guys just all haveto like crawl up and find him,
and one of each one of youget lost. I think it's so we

(01:08:47):
need to end this show because it'sa Saturday afternoon and we're going off the
rails and this has happened. SoI'm thankful to it was good. It
was good to have a conversation andknow that other people were going to hear
it. And I don't know ifthat's actually a good thing. Um it
is. It's a beautiful thing.Yeah, but we just wanted to come

(01:09:09):
on and just let you know what'sgoing on, how things are a little
different. But um yeah, they'regonna be good. They're gonna be amazing.
So pay attention to our lives,like it's on social media. Listen
to the other shows if they're out. If they're not, go back and
listen to old stuff. Yeah,i'll give you. I'll give you my
top three favorite episodes. Oh,we should do that of each show.

(01:09:32):
That's a good idea. We shouldput that on Mom's and Mayhem. Don't
mean the shows that I'm the episodesI'm not on that you're not, that's
finery. Usually once I'm not onto I would be like, um,
so remember that time I went tothe beach and Christie Koi came on and
you guys talk for eighteen hours andI wasn't there and you talk about all
the things. I'm still waiting forKrista to do my numbers. So yes,

(01:09:56):
I feel like my chakra is notaligned because I yes, So we'll
have to get her on to doit. She could do Charies's too.
We should do that again and thatand we are also going to be doing
um. We have to work onit. So I'm putting into the universe
a Women's a white Horse crossover episodes. We've been talking about it for a
while. Scheduling is awful with allof us, you know, well,

(01:10:19):
we'll make it a point. Sothat would be something fun because all three
shows are very different, extremely different, very different, so we'll be interesting.
But they're all doing Charisse and Kristaand Ali their shows are incredible.
So if you're not listening to us, go listen to Leaders by Design and
the Extessential Ginger podcast. You know, so good buyer merch do that We're

(01:10:45):
gonna make towels so we can takethem to the beach and you can buy
them too. Oh, speaking ofmerch, we are working on a man's
inspired graphic tea wine. So wehave a couple like fun graphic tis already
made, so we're gonna get acouple more done and then we're just gonna

(01:11:06):
drop them and they're just fun.Like. The one is my absolute favorite
is I'm Pretty but I Cry alot? Yes, that one. I
can't wait wait to share that withy'all. So, yeah, we should
link that, maybe even into theepisode. We'll post a link check it
out. If not, go toour Facebook page. We'll post links there

(01:11:28):
and other than that by Little Doves