July 7, 2025 • 35 mins
In Asia’s fragmented payments landscape, cross-border trade can be challenging for small businesses. As CEO of the Emerging Payments Association Asia, Camilla Bullock is on a mission to change that. Using what she calls “the network effect”, Camilla brings together regulators, thought leaders, and innovators to find solutions to enable seamless cross-border payments and empower small businesses to trade more freely. In today’s episode, Camilla explains why data is both the key to progress and one of the biggest hurdles in payments, why diversity is essential for better innovation, and how an emerging technology could hold the key to unlocking smoother payments for businesses across the region.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Trade is good for everyone, but there is no trade without
payments and there is no payments without a movement of
data. The biggest thing we can do is
an industry is to crack. Digital identity is the Holy
Grail of payments. Nobody would set out to try to
conquer Asia if they really understand how big and
fragmented it is. When we start to talk about B2B,
it's different size of the corporations, it's different
(00:22):
corridors, cash rich time pours,all the different things that
impact how you would like to seeyour perfect payment.
But here comes the challenge. This week we're joined by
Camilla Bullock, the CEO of EPA Emerging Payments Association.
Asia, We are the peak body for the payments industry in AIPAC
(00:44):
and we bring the industry together around policy and
advocacy in general. We have that vision of improving
lives everywhere through payments.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Money Travels
presented by Visa. I'm rich.
I'm Max Camelia, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much. For those who who don't know
(01:05):
what the EPAA is, maybe give a, a quick a quick intro to, to to
them, but also like how you cameto be there after kind of your
background and how you end up kind of working for someone like
the EPA. We are the peak body for the
payments industry in AIPAC and we bring the industry together
around policy and advocacy. We work towards a level playing
(01:29):
field. We have North stars like
interoperability and harmonisation and I think in
general we have that vision of improving lives everywhere
through payments. So we have about 70 members now
from across the value chain and across the region.
We have some of the very well known big organisations like
Swift, JP Morgan, Standard Chartered, HSBC.
(01:50):
It's a really big end of town. Then we have PayPal, we have AD
Group, we have the newer players, Tunes and Neo, but then
also supporting services like for example Equinix that host
many of those pay techs in theirdata centre for cross
connectivity. AWS is the cloud provider, but
here it's a lot of global names.But then we also have a lot of
(02:11):
smaller ones, like Flip for example in Indonesia doing
cross-border payments or Hyperface in I1.
Of the things we wanted to focuson with our conversation with
you was, you know, Asia is a super fragmented region.
So how do you go about approaching that because you,
you said you've got 70 members, I'm guessing across seven or
eight kind of sub regions of of Asia?
(02:31):
I think that almost ties into tothe question how, how I came
about to do this because I thinkif I knew back in 2018 what I
know now, I'm not sure if I would have taken this job
because it's been more challenging than I expected.
But but on the other hand, joking aside, I absolutely love
what I do. But how it came about it was
(02:53):
Tony Craddock met my Co founder John Ryan at Money 2020 back in
2018 and he asked John then likehow do I go about to set up the
emerging payments association inAustralia.
So I'm based in Australia and John replied back that there's
no need for a payments association in Australia because
(03:15):
we already have a strong body asAUS Paynet.
But there is a need in the region because the region is
fragmented both of technology and culture and countries.
Just what you what you alluded to there.
But I think setting up then whatI found is that it's, it's so
fragmented in so many different ways.
(03:36):
And also where the region are inthe evolution of payments,
Australia and Hong Kong and Singapore, for example, has gone
more traditional way like Europe.
Why if we're looking at emergingmarkets like for example
Indonesia and Philippines, they still are evolving their digital
payments. They dig a big loop, a big jump,
(03:57):
which I think we'll talk about during this show like jumping
over the cards. But then you also have two of
the most leading innovation markets in the world in payments
and alluding there to India and Thailand also is leading in real
time payments uptake. You come from, I'm not going to
say, very different backgrounds.When we look at your career and
(04:18):
what you've done so far, you know, coming out from Sweden,
going to Australia, you know, running consultancy firm and now
jumping into this world, I almost want to ask why, why,
why, why did you do that? I think I'm very much a yes
Sayer, so if somebody has something that sounds exciting,
(04:40):
I catch it and I run. But yeah, we had the opportunity
to set up EPA in APAC and John, who I refer to my Co founder,
thought it was a brilliant idea.I said no, we had set up this
consultancy, we just have a portfolio of clients, why would
we do that? And he said, oh, oh, if you
(05:01):
don't want to do it, I will still do it.
And I was like, you can't go away and do something else when
we have this organization together.
Said, OK, I do it 4 hours a weekand now 6-6 years later or seven
years later, he left the organization and I do it eight
days a week. I would say I shouldn't say I
think most I might have one of the most interesting jobs in
(05:25):
payments because I get to sit insome of the most cutting edge
discussion with some of the mostinnovative organisations.
In the same time we're trusted by regulators in central banks
and we get to be that voice for a full region.
I mean, that is super exciting and all the people we work with
wants to work with us. They they pay to work with us.
(05:47):
So that's actually really exciting as such.
But but it's what you said abouthow I came with no background
from payments because I had Neilbackground from payments.
So I had a huge imposter syndrome in the beginning and
used to say like, Oh, I don't know anything about payments.
Then I started to see all conversation always landing in
(06:07):
digital identity, which I knew alittle bit more about.
And now I say like every discussion lands in data and and
payments is the movement of data.
And I do understand data, of course, it's a lot more to
payments technology than just moving data.
But I think now, seven years later, I overcome the imposter
syndrome. At least I think I am where I'm
(06:28):
supposed to be. So do you think there is a bit
of naivety from people A not from the payment space, but even
people from the payment space coming into a market like Asia
and just having their eyes, you know, really push wide open
saying wow? Absolutely nobody would set out
to try to conquer Asia if they really understand how big and
fragmented it is. And even being Swedish, coming
(06:51):
to this region in the beginning and not having spent time at
all, when I came out, I was in London 10 years before this.
I sort of bundled Singapore and Hong Kong together.
It's massively different market or people think around Indonesia
and Malaysia is the same, again massively different markets.
So each market has its payments flavour, but also maturity,
(07:14):
flavour and regulatory frameworks and and also how you
do business. What is said in a meeting in a
round table compared to what's actually is happening is very
different from market to market.What does it mean for the the
end users? You know the small businesses?
Why does? Why is fragmentation it's such a
such a challenge when it comes to them, you know, essentially
(07:36):
making a living? We did this survey or research
project together with PayPal where we need to use some SMEs
across the region and in generalan SME has to adhere to around
if you're starting to do cross-border payments in in a
larger scale to run 100 different regulation per market.
So that is a challenge by itself.
(07:57):
We spoke to 1 gentleman in Singapore who was exporting
digital medical services and he said it was harder to get access
to payments as a doctor than it was to actually get access to
the licenses to deliver his services.
Or we spoke to a lady in in India selling sarees and she was
(08:19):
active and I think it was about 7 different markets across
Southeast Asia. And she was still at this stage
where she rather send her salespeople to bring the cash
home then creating connectivity and have access to cross-border
payments. So, so there are still
challenges there and those were still fairly well versed people
(08:40):
as we did find them. What the fragmentation does
mean, there's a huge and huge amounts of opportunity and that
certainly every guest we speak to in the region is just excited
by the, the level of opportunity.
But you know, you, you step off the plane, you after the second
time of asking, you agree to kind of set up the EPAA.
Where do you start? I think we started around the
(09:03):
player that was leaning in. So like if I looked at our
member and we had a lot of global members actually that
came to us early on. So PayPal for example, was one
of our funding members and I think they had seen and
understood how challenging the region is.
So they wanted to have a home orpayments, a common platform that
(09:23):
the industry could come togetherto make sense of what's going
on. It's about enhancing the
industry and lifting all players.
Like just looking at cross-border payments, for
example, we're not looking for each individual to to grow their
slice of the pie, we're looking for the pie to grow.
Where do you put the focus? Do you start with consumers?
Do you start with government? Do you start with businesses?
(09:44):
Small. Big, how?
How do you prioritize all of this?
What we're saying is that we locate the challenge and
opportunities where we add most value, where we have a unique
voice. There's no point for us to lean
into a discussion where there isalready a shaped consensus for
the industry. So that was one of the leading
(10:04):
stars we have. And then it's it's again where
the members are active and wherewe can make a difference for
them. And as well also where where we
are invited in as a special voice, one of our tag lines or
whatever you call that is that trade is good for everyone.
That opens the door when we talkabout trade.
(10:25):
Trade leads to prosperity, but there is no trade without
payments. And now this year, I mean who
doesn't talk about trade. So I think we have a very unique
position first in the region where we have this opportunity.
So just look at Australia, we have election year and we we
talk about trade and saying you need to put the payment system
(10:46):
in the middle of this election campaign because we need that
connectivity in the region. It shouldn't be easier to go far
West than it should be to go to our neighbors and specifically
when we have some of the fastestgrowing GDPS in our region.
So I think that is one of those discussions that we're well,
(11:07):
we're well suited for because it's trade is another community
by itself. If you look at it like free
trade agreements and the WTO andthe OCD discussions, different
people sitting in those room. They're sitting in the, for
example, the G20 cross-border payments discussion.
They're talking about the same thing, but they're using
different language and everything is in in the detail
(11:30):
of what is actually the challenge or the bottleneck for
an SME to do trade. They need the payments or for a
payments to to move that data across the border in a smooth
and efficient and secured way. I think the work that the EPAA
are doing is really interesting because it sounds like there is,
you know, a, a, a really good collaboration between everybody
(11:52):
in the ecosystem. It sounds like they're they're
participating in the organization to generally just
make payments, trade cross-border money movement
better for for everybody. And it's not a case of someone
coming there to win market share.
People have a genuine interest in making you know this better.
Absolutely, We talk about PPPs, the passionate payments people.
(12:14):
So it's definitely about leaningin and and how can we enhance
this industry together. But I think we also created a
forum, a trusted forum for a dialogue.
So people know when you come to our discussion, it is to do
progress together. The members and the participants
we invite into our room agree on80%, but then it will always be
(12:36):
that 20% that is a little bit like, oh, but we take on more
risk or you come on to commercial discussion, which we
try to stay away from and just focus on that 80% that could
drive the industry. Yeah, of course 1.
Question I think is getting moreand more important, especially
if we put that SME, SME in focus, is that who's in the
(12:57):
room? I just came back from Money
2020, so a fantastic conference and really cutting edge
discussion. But there is very few treasurers
in there, very few SMEs and it'sthat of very few merchants.
Some discussions need to actually have the person that's
making the payments. People won't necessarily think
(13:17):
of it as a payment. They, you know, it's part of a
buying process if you will, but so they don't have someone
dedicated that really think thatthrough.
Or is it because we are guilty as an industry not to identify
the right people and, and you know, reach out to them to, to
basically help them? I think it's very hard if, if we
(13:37):
look at corporate specifically, small or big, rarely they have a
payments person. So who do you talk to?
Do you speak to the CFO? Do you speak to somebody looking
after the customers operations? So, so one question is that do
you have a payment strategy? Most people they don't think
about it. So for the payments industry to
go and say, do you want to come and sit in our room is the
(14:00):
wrong, wrong question to ask. I'm still trying though, to find
as soon as I go to barbecue, I'mI'm a PPPI talk about payments
and I try to find in your organization who would like to
come and talk about payments. You're one of those people,
PPPI, really like that. Actually it sounds like you.
You really enjoy discussing withlike minded people how we
(14:24):
actually climb this huge mountain.
How successful have you been? What are some of the big wins
you've? Had I think we're really it's
created that trusted regional voice for the industry and
looking at bringing the industrytogether something we're very
proud is that we have a seat on the three G20 task forces, the
(14:45):
one around legal, regulatory andsupervisory and the pipe for the
infrastructure as well as their API expert panel.
And in those discussion, I thinkwe've been very important in
representing the region's voice and in tiny things like sounds
tiny than saying that we don't all use Latin languages in APEC
(15:06):
or we do not have the same address format in Japan as most
of Europe has. So small of those things that
gives the regional flavour into those global discussions because
I know when the G20 project was launched, so this was 2019 and
we were invited very, very luckybecause it shapes a lot of what
(15:27):
we're doing to panel together with Tara Rees, who wrote one of
those first reports out from FSB.
And she said that in this paper,the private sector in APEC is
underrepresented. And I know coming away from that
and thinking like, oh, that's us.
OK, let's enter into this discussion with messaging that
(15:48):
just we can deliver. So I'm very proud of of having
been a voice for the region in those discussions.
Why does it matter so much to you?
What is? What is it that drives you?
I'm. Really proud when I can match up
the conversation then make something happen that wouldn't
have happened if we wouldn't have paired those people
(16:12):
together. So it might be to central banks
talking on the sideline about something that's moved the
industry or it might be a scale up that have solved the problem
that we can connect to and invest that has been looking for
yes, for that. So it's actually the the real
value created around of bringingdifferent people together.
(16:34):
I love when I look at our round tables discussion and I look
like, Oh my God, we have all those people together.
They've never been together before and they achieved this
great discussion. It might not be that our boom
there was a product created or apartnership that they go away
and they feel enriched by the discussion.
(16:55):
And I like that. I like when I know that they
will come back when people say afterwards, oh, can we host the
next discussion? So it's not so much about
payments as connecting the the people, I think.
Is it also about, is it also about innovation?
Because when we hear everything you said and and you know,
(17:16):
almost the recipe to be APPP, itfeels like innovation is and and
yeah, innovation is is part of it.
Am I right? Yeah.
I mean, you absolutely have to be curious and and you have to
know that you're never the smartest, smartest person in the
room because it is that everybody's holding a different
piece. It is almost like having the lid
(17:37):
of the puzzle box, and I know who's holding the puzzle pieces
and I even know who's holding the corner pieces like the
central bank, the regulator, thestandard setting body.
She tried to move those togetherand I think the the the ultimate
goal would be to get all the side edges together and then
invite everybody with their puzzle pieces to build a
(17:58):
beautiful picture. Talk to us about kind of what
you're doing to reduce the the because the gender gap in in
thought leadership in this space, because you have a really
interesting initiative. It's meet her, she knows
payments. I always say meet her.
She knows payments is absolutelynot about diversity.
It's not a diversity project. It's all about optimal
(18:20):
innovation. But for optimal innovation, you
need to have diversity. And the biggest underrepresented
group on those thought leadership tables are still
women. What's happened like this?
We're hosting an event here in Sydney.
So this gentleman pulled me aside and said, Camilla, why are
there so few women involved in EPA?
And I had not seen it because the problem was my network was
(18:43):
95% men. So I thought like, I really need
to figure out how to get to knowthe most brilliant women in the
industry. And I thought that is around
hosting the most cutting edge discussions.
So every time we invite one amazing female leader to just
talk about innovation in her space and then another 11
amazing women. So it means I get to know 13
(19:07):
brilliant, awesome payments leaders that happens to be
women. And it's just created a really
good momentum and a good community.
And we never lack women to on our panels or a discussion.
As you said, it's not about diversity, but about cognitive
diversity effectively and a diversity of thought on, on not
just the panels, but involved inthe work that you guys are doing
(19:28):
and kind of member participants.We do the same actually when we
look at the composite of do we have enough small banks as big
banks, Do we have the merchants,do we have the people from those
markets compared to this. So we never want to have, if we
have a regional discussion, we can't just have people from
Singapore. We're trying to find people from
(19:50):
Korea and Vietnam and so on. So it's a little bit on the same
way, like it's innovation, but it is so much energy in this
project. I love it.
Fantastic. Well, listen, credit to the work
that you've done there. It sounds brilliant.
So we started talking about the just the the fragmentation
across Asia is like scary for people who you don't don't know
it, but also for people who liveand breathe it.
(20:11):
Have you seen that evolve over the last kind of seven years and
how you're going to tackling? Even if it's just kind of
knowledge around how to navigatethat fragmentation.
I think for a lot of global players that we have in our
membership, they got more connected to to local players.
We do a lot of those connectionsbehind the scenes also.
But I think to bring different policy makers together with a
(20:36):
broader set of APEC payments player is something we achieve
well. And also bringing the discussion
like recently and related to theto the G20 targets LEI, the
Glide Foundation is part of our membership.
And I think to bring that big discussion from the G20 down to
(20:59):
like fintech association level. So we work with 14 Fintech
association across the region and that is our way of staying
connected to the more start up scale up players that that has
not been as well represented in our membership as globally
established. And that has been a really good
(21:19):
way of us like we do the big G20discussion and make sure that
they land also in smaller scale up in Indonesia and Philippines
and India and so on and so forth.
Another thing I'm very proud of is we just launched last week at
the G at the Money 2020, that's called India Connect.
And I think this is one thing not understanding a market and
(21:40):
this was us not understanding India.
I thought we understood India. I mean, being based in this
region, we followed the demonetization, the setup of the
India stack and also the newer layer of the open data data
layer or account aggregation. But then when I came to I2 years
(22:01):
ago for Global Fintech Festival,the first time it was mind
blowing. It was so much more that I could
ever have imagined how the Indian ecosystem works together.
They they have the India stack that they build on.
But then how they in partnershipis reaching all the different
pockets in the country and as well as reefing all the
(22:23):
different consumer groups and usas the association going and
seeing this and talking about itin other markets created this
demand of understanding India. So we created this report just
to try to translate what happened during the last, what
is it like 9 years in India thathas created this phenomenal
(22:45):
factory or pay tech and also a phenomenal uptake on real time
payments. I mean, there's no other market
that transacts so many real timepayments transactions a day and.
And do you see, do you see everything that you discover in
India? How do you see that like you
(23:07):
know, expanding to to the regionor do you see that expanding to
the region? So I actually think that the the
Indian story is not fully understood outside of India.
I think you hear the story beingtold about UPI, but it's heard
differently. So it's like sort of lack in in
interpretation. Yeah.
So I still think it's a lot of learning and partnerships that
(23:29):
can be made. There are challenges again
because I mean there's regulatory dis alignment between
markets globally and and in our region.
But then you also have the challenge, what are the
precondition that was in India compared to precondition in
other markets. It's not that you can just lift
and shift the blueprint, but youcan learn from that blueprint
(23:53):
and see what things can we borrow, what should we
replicate, what could we enhance?
And as well, how can we plug into some of the holes that that
still exist in the Indian marketbecause they still have so much
evolution that will happen over the next 10 years?
Yeah, it's really understanding the leapfrog, right?
Going over 1 technology to go straight to the next one.
(24:15):
But you, sometimes it's easier to do when you, you don't have
the legacy systems, easier to just adopt this new technology
and, and, you know, bring that new innovation to, to the table.
But, but, but it, it also startswith where the consumers and
businesses are as well and wherethe needs are, right?
It's not just innovation for theinnovation's.
(24:37):
Sake, yeah, absolutely. Like as Australia is working
through uptake or real time payments now it's, I mean you
say it's so used to using cards and it's so seamless and you
have it in your upper wallet already.
If you don't travel, you just struggle to see what is the
actually big 10X value for me tochange my habits.
(25:00):
So I definitely think that will sit on those added on services
that that will come out of having more Intel about the end
consumer or businesses. We've shown a, you know, a
glowing light and a lot of the work you're doing.
Is there ever any frustration that creeps in?
(25:20):
I asked that because you have 70of, you know, the the biggest
and best minds as members of theEPAA who could probably use four
or five whiteboards to spell outthe challenges that need to be
be addressed and probably ways to do it.
Yet it still takes time to go and solve this stuff.
(25:42):
Is there any kind of frustrationthat creeps and say why aren't
we moving quicker? Totally, because sometimes it
feels like we're talking about the same thing.
And when I was at Thomson Reuters Refinity long time back,
I did ISO 22 migrations for corporate actions and still I'm
here doing ISO 20 to 2 migrationdiscussions.
So of course there is frustration, but I think there's
(26:04):
so much hope and opportunity allthe time in technology solving
this. What's more frustrating I find
is the geopolitical environment that we have and some things
that here maybe the naivety coming in, like how can some of
the biggest markets that does somuch trade together and not
agree on certain data data flows?
(26:26):
Or how can we not make purpose codes when payments goes in and
out of a country available for all participants in a
standardized format? I mean, those are basics like
how can't we not get those right?
And when it is politics that comes between, that makes me a
little bit frustrated. And, and those are the details
(26:46):
that, you know, again, focusing on that end user, those are the
details that they don't see or know about as a small business
or as individual. You just want your money to go
from A to B. I've often used the swan
analogy, and it's our job to make sure that the top of the
water is this nice serene bird that's going across underneath.
The little legs are flapping andit's that flapping.
(27:07):
That's me. That's me.
That's you. That's you and the members
talking about it flapping. What I often say is an analogy.
When I moved to Australia, it's a long time ago actually, but so
the mobile phones were too expensive to call on.
So I would. And I lived really high up, 42nd
floor and I didn't have a key card for the lifts.
I had to walk in the stairs, 42 levels go down to call my
(27:29):
parents down the street to a coin phone and I would have this
scratch card to scratch the code.
Then I would dial A number that was to connect me to Sweden.
And then I would do the 14 digitcode and it would say, OK, you
have 10 minutes left on the 10 minutes on the card, it gives
you 25 minutes. It'll connect me to my mum and
it would be a echo on the line and I would hang up and redo
(27:50):
that all again. And that you can hear that was
pain. You could hear how painful.
And now I use WhatsApp and it doesn't cost me any money at
all. So that is the hope I think.
And back then I thought it was amazing that I could even call
them because earlier on I, I hadmy grandparents in Norway and we
(28:10):
used to call them once a year because it was so expensive.
So I think if we're looking at that industry, it's really an
industry that I think we'd like let's try to borrow as much as
possible because they did it seamless, but of course they had
less challenges than the payments industry.
Love it. Where are we then if you compare
that phoning home to Sweden and you compare kind of where we are
(28:33):
on A and let's talk about maybe cross-border payments because I
think that's where you know, especially across within the
Asian region, that's where that fragmentation really plays a
part. Where are we on the scratching
off the 14 digits, the echo in line to a free, you know,
Internet enabled cool. Are we when it comes to
payments? I think we are on the scratching
card still. There is still a long way to go.
(28:56):
I so much more could be done, but here comes the challenge and
and so much time when we talk oncourse like this or in round
tables or even in the G20 project, we get stuck on
remittance because it's so closeto home and we felt the the
pain. It's another layel again when we
start to talk about B to B because it's different size of
(29:17):
the corporations, it's differentcorridors, it's cash rich, it's
time poor, it's all the different things that impact how
you would like to see your perfect payment.
I'm, I'm going to steal this analogy now because I really, I
really like it because I think, I think I remember actually
those days of having to scratch off yesterday.
That's your phone call. You think we're we're still on
(29:38):
the 14 digit scratch off code walking down 42 flights of
stairs in a high rise Australianbuilding.
I think, but it's very fancy that I lived in the penthouse
when I was a student. I have to add that one with we
did share a room three of us. So what needs to happen even to
get it down to, you know, a three digit scratch off what
(29:59):
what are the steps that that youand them and the EBAA members
are talking about that kind of because you've got the vision of
the the free Internet enabled phone call, but we're not going
to get there tomorrow. So what are the kind of
immediate kind of challenges that you and the team are
working on? So many challenges come down to
(30:21):
missing data or data that we can't share or data that is
entrusted. But I mean I could say oh,
interoperability, harmonisation,all those catchy words that we
use a lot. But I would say definitions and
definitions of different kind ofpayments and risk.
And with risk is like what what defines the risky payments?
(30:42):
So we can start to look at how can they be done smoothly
because some payments takes longer because they are riskier
also. But I think definitions around
what is sensitive data because there are some of the data that
are today can't travel cross borders, but might actually not
be sensitive. And then one of my favorite
(31:03):
words or acronyms for the last two years is pets.
And if we as an industry, this is something we're doing this
year's like really looking in more what what is privacy
enhancing technology? It was a thing for the last two
years when I used this acronym. I used to think of it like
privacy enhancing technology that will solve it because then
(31:25):
the privacy intact. But apparently so many different
flavours of privacy enhancing technology and coming back to we
need standards around it and then we need regulations and
policy how it can be used. But I do think it is something
in that technology that we haven't haven't looked close
enough on. Is that something that could
(31:46):
really enable more efficient andsecure cross-border payments?
I yes, hope that it will solve some of the challenges I'd
always seen as privacy enhancingtechnology 1 technology that
would make the data private and give you see a reproof answer to
questions like is Camilla older than 18?
(32:08):
Yes, you don't have to know my actual age and date, but it's
it's much more neons to that. We don't want to give the
sensitive data away, but we wantto have the proof.
Can I conduct this payment or not?
I would love more members. There are experts in privacy
enhancing technology because we as an industry need it to make
that data flow, which means payment flows and do.
(32:31):
You think that technology existsin other industry and it's a
matter of bringing what other industries have been through
into payment? Or do you feel it's definitely
net new builds and like innovation coming in this field
for us? I know, perfect question because
it's coming back to what I said before, it's to have the right
(32:53):
players in the room. So spoke to to one hopefully
member in the future. Terminal 3, I'm talking about
you. And they have been, they have
been very active within the government space and I think
even they've been active within the military and defence space.
And when we talked about what they've done there, I really had
(33:14):
the feeling like come and understand our industry.
Yes, as well as I'm saying our industry should go and
understand the corporates or or whoever they're dealing with.
Please you technology providers,take it, take a step in and
really see what the challenges is and the bottlenecks for that
data to flow. So the title of this podcast is
Money Travels and we always liketo ask our guests if they would
(33:41):
like to see someone in this showto talk about how money travels.
Who would you like to invite in this show?
Wow, this is like a little gift to get to get to do the wish
list. I think two female leaders that
I really look up to and that I think it would be great to have
on the show and for them to telltheir stories.
I would say Monica Yasuya, who'sbased in Delhi and knows
(34:05):
everything about the Indian payments landscape, but also
with a global lens that she's been with PayPal and MasterCard
before. She's a fantastic PPP.
And then I would also call out Kerry Swain, who's with Ant
Group and leading their government affairs team, and
that is on the call from going to market to market in different
(34:26):
regulation and building that network effect.
I think they've done a phenomenal work.
Yeah. So those would be the two
people. Listen committed.
Thank you so much for joining. It's been fantastic talking to
you. We've got a new kind of acronym
of PPP and I've got a great new analogy to steal of scratching
(34:47):
our 14 digits to call home from Australia and how that relates
to the famous industry. It's been really, really
interesting. Thank you for having it.
So that's it from Max and I thisweek.
To keep the conversation going, you can follow us on our socials
that are appearing on the bottomof your screen.
And also don't forget to follow the show on Spotify, subscribe
(35:10):
on YouTube. As always, if you've enjoyed
what you heard today, leave us areview.
Tell your friends or better still, do both.
We'll be back next episode to explore more life changing
innovations in digital finance. So wherever your travels take
you, remember to join us for thenext installment of Money
Travels presented by Visa.
Trade is good for everyone, but there is no trade without
payments and there is no payments without a movement of
data. The biggest thing we can do is
an industry is to crack. Digital identity is the Holy
Grail of payments. Nobody would set out to try to
conquer Asia if they really understand how big and
fragmented it is. When we start to talk about B2B,
it's different size of the corporations, it's different
(00:22):
corridors, cash rich time pours,all the different things that
impact how you would like to seeyour perfect payment.
But here comes the challenge. This week we're joined by
Camilla Bullock, the CEO of EPA Emerging Payments Association.
Asia, We are the peak body for the payments industry in AIPAC
(00:44):
and we bring the industry together around policy and
advocacy in general. We have that vision of improving
lives everywhere through payments.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Money Travels
presented by Visa. I'm rich.
I'm Max Camelia, welcome to the show.
Thank you very much. For those who who don't know
(01:05):
what the EPAA is, maybe give a, a quick a quick intro to, to to
them, but also like how you cameto be there after kind of your
background and how you end up kind of working for someone like
the EPA. We are the peak body for the
payments industry in AIPAC and we bring the industry together
around policy and advocacy. We work towards a level playing
(01:29):
field. We have North stars like
interoperability and harmonisation and I think in
general we have that vision of improving lives everywhere
through payments. So we have about 70 members now
from across the value chain and across the region.
We have some of the very well known big organisations like
Swift, JP Morgan, Standard Chartered, HSBC.
(01:50):
It's a really big end of town. Then we have PayPal, we have AD
Group, we have the newer players, Tunes and Neo, but then
also supporting services like for example Equinix that host
many of those pay techs in theirdata centre for cross
connectivity. AWS is the cloud provider, but
here it's a lot of global names.But then we also have a lot of
(02:11):
smaller ones, like Flip for example in Indonesia doing
cross-border payments or Hyperface in I1.
Of the things we wanted to focuson with our conversation with
you was, you know, Asia is a super fragmented region.
So how do you go about approaching that because you,
you said you've got 70 members, I'm guessing across seven or
eight kind of sub regions of of Asia?
(02:31):
I think that almost ties into tothe question how, how I came
about to do this because I thinkif I knew back in 2018 what I
know now, I'm not sure if I would have taken this job
because it's been more challenging than I expected.
But but on the other hand, joking aside, I absolutely love
what I do. But how it came about it was
(02:53):
Tony Craddock met my Co founder John Ryan at Money 2020 back in
2018 and he asked John then likehow do I go about to set up the
emerging payments association inAustralia.
So I'm based in Australia and John replied back that there's
no need for a payments association in Australia because
(03:15):
we already have a strong body asAUS Paynet.
But there is a need in the region because the region is
fragmented both of technology and culture and countries.
Just what you what you alluded to there.
But I think setting up then whatI found is that it's, it's so
fragmented in so many different ways.
(03:36):
And also where the region are inthe evolution of payments,
Australia and Hong Kong and Singapore, for example, has gone
more traditional way like Europe.
Why if we're looking at emergingmarkets like for example
Indonesia and Philippines, they still are evolving their digital
payments. They dig a big loop, a big jump,
(03:57):
which I think we'll talk about during this show like jumping
over the cards. But then you also have two of
the most leading innovation markets in the world in payments
and alluding there to India and Thailand also is leading in real
time payments uptake. You come from, I'm not going to
say, very different backgrounds.When we look at your career and
(04:18):
what you've done so far, you know, coming out from Sweden,
going to Australia, you know, running consultancy firm and now
jumping into this world, I almost want to ask why, why,
why, why did you do that? I think I'm very much a yes
Sayer, so if somebody has something that sounds exciting,
(04:40):
I catch it and I run. But yeah, we had the opportunity
to set up EPA in APAC and John, who I refer to my Co founder,
thought it was a brilliant idea.I said no, we had set up this
consultancy, we just have a portfolio of clients, why would
we do that? And he said, oh, oh, if you
(05:01):
don't want to do it, I will still do it.
And I was like, you can't go away and do something else when
we have this organization together.
Said, OK, I do it 4 hours a weekand now 6-6 years later or seven
years later, he left the organization and I do it eight
days a week. I would say I shouldn't say I
think most I might have one of the most interesting jobs in
(05:25):
payments because I get to sit insome of the most cutting edge
discussion with some of the mostinnovative organisations.
In the same time we're trusted by regulators in central banks
and we get to be that voice for a full region.
I mean, that is super exciting and all the people we work with
wants to work with us. They they pay to work with us.
(05:47):
So that's actually really exciting as such.
But but it's what you said abouthow I came with no background
from payments because I had Neilbackground from payments.
So I had a huge imposter syndrome in the beginning and
used to say like, Oh, I don't know anything about payments.
Then I started to see all conversation always landing in
(06:07):
digital identity, which I knew alittle bit more about.
And now I say like every discussion lands in data and and
payments is the movement of data.
And I do understand data, of course, it's a lot more to
payments technology than just moving data.
But I think now, seven years later, I overcome the imposter
syndrome. At least I think I am where I'm
(06:28):
supposed to be. So do you think there is a bit
of naivety from people A not from the payment space, but even
people from the payment space coming into a market like Asia
and just having their eyes, you know, really push wide open
saying wow? Absolutely nobody would set out
to try to conquer Asia if they really understand how big and
fragmented it is. And even being Swedish, coming
(06:51):
to this region in the beginning and not having spent time at
all, when I came out, I was in London 10 years before this.
I sort of bundled Singapore and Hong Kong together.
It's massively different market or people think around Indonesia
and Malaysia is the same, again massively different markets.
So each market has its payments flavour, but also maturity,
(07:14):
flavour and regulatory frameworks and and also how you
do business. What is said in a meeting in a
round table compared to what's actually is happening is very
different from market to market.What does it mean for the the
end users? You know the small businesses?
Why does? Why is fragmentation it's such a
such a challenge when it comes to them, you know, essentially
(07:36):
making a living? We did this survey or research
project together with PayPal where we need to use some SMEs
across the region and in generalan SME has to adhere to around
if you're starting to do cross-border payments in in a
larger scale to run 100 different regulation per market.
So that is a challenge by itself.
(07:57):
We spoke to 1 gentleman in Singapore who was exporting
digital medical services and he said it was harder to get access
to payments as a doctor than it was to actually get access to
the licenses to deliver his services.
Or we spoke to a lady in in India selling sarees and she was
(08:19):
active and I think it was about 7 different markets across
Southeast Asia. And she was still at this stage
where she rather send her salespeople to bring the cash
home then creating connectivity and have access to cross-border
payments. So, so there are still
challenges there and those were still fairly well versed people
(08:40):
as we did find them. What the fragmentation does
mean, there's a huge and huge amounts of opportunity and that
certainly every guest we speak to in the region is just excited
by the, the level of opportunity.
But you know, you, you step off the plane, you after the second
time of asking, you agree to kind of set up the EPAA.
Where do you start? I think we started around the
(09:03):
player that was leaning in. So like if I looked at our
member and we had a lot of global members actually that
came to us early on. So PayPal for example, was one
of our funding members and I think they had seen and
understood how challenging the region is.
So they wanted to have a home orpayments, a common platform that
(09:23):
the industry could come togetherto make sense of what's going
on. It's about enhancing the
industry and lifting all players.
Like just looking at cross-border payments, for
example, we're not looking for each individual to to grow their
slice of the pie, we're looking for the pie to grow.
Where do you put the focus? Do you start with consumers?
Do you start with government? Do you start with businesses?
(09:44):
Small. Big, how?
How do you prioritize all of this?
What we're saying is that we locate the challenge and
opportunities where we add most value, where we have a unique
voice. There's no point for us to lean
into a discussion where there isalready a shaped consensus for
the industry. So that was one of the leading
(10:04):
stars we have. And then it's it's again where
the members are active and wherewe can make a difference for
them. And as well also where where we
are invited in as a special voice, one of our tag lines or
whatever you call that is that trade is good for everyone.
That opens the door when we talkabout trade.
(10:25):
Trade leads to prosperity, but there is no trade without
payments. And now this year, I mean who
doesn't talk about trade. So I think we have a very unique
position first in the region where we have this opportunity.
So just look at Australia, we have election year and we we
talk about trade and saying you need to put the payment system
(10:46):
in the middle of this election campaign because we need that
connectivity in the region. It shouldn't be easier to go far
West than it should be to go to our neighbors and specifically
when we have some of the fastestgrowing GDPS in our region.
So I think that is one of those discussions that we're well,
(11:07):
we're well suited for because it's trade is another community
by itself. If you look at it like free
trade agreements and the WTO andthe OCD discussions, different
people sitting in those room. They're sitting in the, for
example, the G20 cross-border payments discussion.
They're talking about the same thing, but they're using
different language and everything is in in the detail
(11:30):
of what is actually the challenge or the bottleneck for
an SME to do trade. They need the payments or for a
payments to to move that data across the border in a smooth
and efficient and secured way. I think the work that the EPAA
are doing is really interesting because it sounds like there is,
you know, a, a, a really good collaboration between everybody
(11:52):
in the ecosystem. It sounds like they're they're
participating in the organization to generally just
make payments, trade cross-border money movement
better for for everybody. And it's not a case of someone
coming there to win market share.
People have a genuine interest in making you know this better.
Absolutely, We talk about PPPs, the passionate payments people.
(12:14):
So it's definitely about leaningin and and how can we enhance
this industry together. But I think we also created a
forum, a trusted forum for a dialogue.
So people know when you come to our discussion, it is to do
progress together. The members and the participants
we invite into our room agree on80%, but then it will always be
(12:36):
that 20% that is a little bit like, oh, but we take on more
risk or you come on to commercial discussion, which we
try to stay away from and just focus on that 80% that could
drive the industry. Yeah, of course 1.
Question I think is getting moreand more important, especially
if we put that SME, SME in focus, is that who's in the
(12:57):
room? I just came back from Money
2020, so a fantastic conference and really cutting edge
discussion. But there is very few treasurers
in there, very few SMEs and it'sthat of very few merchants.
Some discussions need to actually have the person that's
making the payments. People won't necessarily think
(13:17):
of it as a payment. They, you know, it's part of a
buying process if you will, but so they don't have someone
dedicated that really think thatthrough.
Or is it because we are guilty as an industry not to identify
the right people and, and you know, reach out to them to, to
basically help them? I think it's very hard if, if we
(13:37):
look at corporate specifically, small or big, rarely they have a
payments person. So who do you talk to?
Do you speak to the CFO? Do you speak to somebody looking
after the customers operations? So, so one question is that do
you have a payment strategy? Most people they don't think
about it. So for the payments industry to
go and say, do you want to come and sit in our room is the
(14:00):
wrong, wrong question to ask. I'm still trying though, to find
as soon as I go to barbecue, I'mI'm a PPPI talk about payments
and I try to find in your organization who would like to
come and talk about payments. You're one of those people,
PPPI, really like that. Actually it sounds like you.
You really enjoy discussing withlike minded people how we
(14:24):
actually climb this huge mountain.
How successful have you been? What are some of the big wins
you've? Had I think we're really it's
created that trusted regional voice for the industry and
looking at bringing the industrytogether something we're very
proud is that we have a seat on the three G20 task forces, the
(14:45):
one around legal, regulatory andsupervisory and the pipe for the
infrastructure as well as their API expert panel.
And in those discussion, I thinkwe've been very important in
representing the region's voice and in tiny things like sounds
tiny than saying that we don't all use Latin languages in APEC
(15:06):
or we do not have the same address format in Japan as most
of Europe has. So small of those things that
gives the regional flavour into those global discussions because
I know when the G20 project was launched, so this was 2019 and
we were invited very, very luckybecause it shapes a lot of what
(15:27):
we're doing to panel together with Tara Rees, who wrote one of
those first reports out from FSB.
And she said that in this paper,the private sector in APEC is
underrepresented. And I know coming away from that
and thinking like, oh, that's us.
OK, let's enter into this discussion with messaging that
(15:48):
just we can deliver. So I'm very proud of of having
been a voice for the region in those discussions.
Why does it matter so much to you?
What is? What is it that drives you?
I'm. Really proud when I can match up
the conversation then make something happen that wouldn't
have happened if we wouldn't have paired those people
(16:12):
together. So it might be to central banks
talking on the sideline about something that's moved the
industry or it might be a scale up that have solved the problem
that we can connect to and invest that has been looking for
yes, for that. So it's actually the the real
value created around of bringingdifferent people together.
(16:34):
I love when I look at our round tables discussion and I look
like, Oh my God, we have all those people together.
They've never been together before and they achieved this
great discussion. It might not be that our boom
there was a product created or apartnership that they go away
and they feel enriched by the discussion.
(16:55):
And I like that. I like when I know that they
will come back when people say afterwards, oh, can we host the
next discussion? So it's not so much about
payments as connecting the the people, I think.
Is it also about, is it also about innovation?
Because when we hear everything you said and and you know,
(17:16):
almost the recipe to be APPP, itfeels like innovation is and and
yeah, innovation is is part of it.
Am I right? Yeah.
I mean, you absolutely have to be curious and and you have to
know that you're never the smartest, smartest person in the
room because it is that everybody's holding a different
piece. It is almost like having the lid
(17:37):
of the puzzle box, and I know who's holding the puzzle pieces
and I even know who's holding the corner pieces like the
central bank, the regulator, thestandard setting body.
She tried to move those togetherand I think the the the ultimate
goal would be to get all the side edges together and then
invite everybody with their puzzle pieces to build a
(17:58):
beautiful picture. Talk to us about kind of what
you're doing to reduce the the because the gender gap in in
thought leadership in this space, because you have a really
interesting initiative. It's meet her, she knows
payments. I always say meet her.
She knows payments is absolutelynot about diversity.
It's not a diversity project. It's all about optimal
(18:20):
innovation. But for optimal innovation, you
need to have diversity. And the biggest underrepresented
group on those thought leadership tables are still
women. What's happened like this?
We're hosting an event here in Sydney.
So this gentleman pulled me aside and said, Camilla, why are
there so few women involved in EPA?
And I had not seen it because the problem was my network was
(18:43):
95% men. So I thought like, I really need
to figure out how to get to knowthe most brilliant women in the
industry. And I thought that is around
hosting the most cutting edge discussions.
So every time we invite one amazing female leader to just
talk about innovation in her space and then another 11
amazing women. So it means I get to know 13
(19:07):
brilliant, awesome payments leaders that happens to be
women. And it's just created a really
good momentum and a good community.
And we never lack women to on our panels or a discussion.
As you said, it's not about diversity, but about cognitive
diversity effectively and a diversity of thought on, on not
just the panels, but involved inthe work that you guys are doing
(19:28):
and kind of member participants.We do the same actually when we
look at the composite of do we have enough small banks as big
banks, Do we have the merchants,do we have the people from those
markets compared to this. So we never want to have, if we
have a regional discussion, we can't just have people from
Singapore. We're trying to find people from
(19:50):
Korea and Vietnam and so on. So it's a little bit on the same
way, like it's innovation, but it is so much energy in this
project. I love it.
Fantastic. Well, listen, credit to the work
that you've done there. It sounds brilliant.
So we started talking about the just the the fragmentation
across Asia is like scary for people who you don't don't know
it, but also for people who liveand breathe it.
(20:11):
Have you seen that evolve over the last kind of seven years and
how you're going to tackling? Even if it's just kind of
knowledge around how to navigatethat fragmentation.
I think for a lot of global players that we have in our
membership, they got more connected to to local players.
We do a lot of those connectionsbehind the scenes also.
But I think to bring different policy makers together with a
(20:36):
broader set of APEC payments player is something we achieve
well. And also bringing the discussion
like recently and related to theto the G20 targets LEI, the
Glide Foundation is part of our membership.
And I think to bring that big discussion from the G20 down to
(20:59):
like fintech association level. So we work with 14 Fintech
association across the region and that is our way of staying
connected to the more start up scale up players that that has
not been as well represented in our membership as globally
established. And that has been a really good
(21:19):
way of us like we do the big G20discussion and make sure that
they land also in smaller scale up in Indonesia and Philippines
and India and so on and so forth.
Another thing I'm very proud of is we just launched last week at
the G at the Money 2020, that's called India Connect.
And I think this is one thing not understanding a market and
(21:40):
this was us not understanding India.
I thought we understood India. I mean, being based in this
region, we followed the demonetization, the setup of the
India stack and also the newer layer of the open data data
layer or account aggregation. But then when I came to I2 years
(22:01):
ago for Global Fintech Festival,the first time it was mind
blowing. It was so much more that I could
ever have imagined how the Indian ecosystem works together.
They they have the India stack that they build on.
But then how they in partnershipis reaching all the different
pockets in the country and as well as reefing all the
(22:23):
different consumer groups and usas the association going and
seeing this and talking about itin other markets created this
demand of understanding India. So we created this report just
to try to translate what happened during the last, what
is it like 9 years in India thathas created this phenomenal
(22:45):
factory or pay tech and also a phenomenal uptake on real time
payments. I mean, there's no other market
that transacts so many real timepayments transactions a day and.
And do you see, do you see everything that you discover in
India? How do you see that like you
(23:07):
know, expanding to to the regionor do you see that expanding to
the region? So I actually think that the the
Indian story is not fully understood outside of India.
I think you hear the story beingtold about UPI, but it's heard
differently. So it's like sort of lack in in
interpretation. Yeah.
So I still think it's a lot of learning and partnerships that
(23:29):
can be made. There are challenges again
because I mean there's regulatory dis alignment between
markets globally and and in our region.
But then you also have the challenge, what are the
precondition that was in India compared to precondition in
other markets. It's not that you can just lift
and shift the blueprint, but youcan learn from that blueprint
(23:53):
and see what things can we borrow, what should we
replicate, what could we enhance?
And as well, how can we plug into some of the holes that that
still exist in the Indian marketbecause they still have so much
evolution that will happen over the next 10 years?
Yeah, it's really understanding the leapfrog, right?
Going over 1 technology to go straight to the next one.
(24:15):
But you, sometimes it's easier to do when you, you don't have
the legacy systems, easier to just adopt this new technology
and, and, you know, bring that new innovation to, to the table.
But, but, but it, it also startswith where the consumers and
businesses are as well and wherethe needs are, right?
It's not just innovation for theinnovation's.
(24:37):
Sake, yeah, absolutely. Like as Australia is working
through uptake or real time payments now it's, I mean you
say it's so used to using cards and it's so seamless and you
have it in your upper wallet already.
If you don't travel, you just struggle to see what is the
actually big 10X value for me tochange my habits.
(25:00):
So I definitely think that will sit on those added on services
that that will come out of having more Intel about the end
consumer or businesses. We've shown a, you know, a
glowing light and a lot of the work you're doing.
Is there ever any frustration that creeps in?
(25:20):
I asked that because you have 70of, you know, the the biggest
and best minds as members of theEPAA who could probably use four
or five whiteboards to spell outthe challenges that need to be
be addressed and probably ways to do it.
Yet it still takes time to go and solve this stuff.
(25:42):
Is there any kind of frustrationthat creeps and say why aren't
we moving quicker? Totally, because sometimes it
feels like we're talking about the same thing.
And when I was at Thomson Reuters Refinity long time back,
I did ISO 22 migrations for corporate actions and still I'm
here doing ISO 20 to 2 migrationdiscussions.
So of course there is frustration, but I think there's
(26:04):
so much hope and opportunity allthe time in technology solving
this. What's more frustrating I find
is the geopolitical environment that we have and some things
that here maybe the naivety coming in, like how can some of
the biggest markets that does somuch trade together and not
agree on certain data data flows?
(26:26):
Or how can we not make purpose codes when payments goes in and
out of a country available for all participants in a
standardized format? I mean, those are basics like
how can't we not get those right?
And when it is politics that comes between, that makes me a
little bit frustrated. And, and those are the details
(26:46):
that, you know, again, focusing on that end user, those are the
details that they don't see or know about as a small business
or as individual. You just want your money to go
from A to B. I've often used the swan
analogy, and it's our job to make sure that the top of the
water is this nice serene bird that's going across underneath.
The little legs are flapping andit's that flapping.
(27:07):
That's me. That's me.
That's you. That's you and the members
talking about it flapping. What I often say is an analogy.
When I moved to Australia, it's a long time ago actually, but so
the mobile phones were too expensive to call on.
So I would. And I lived really high up, 42nd
floor and I didn't have a key card for the lifts.
I had to walk in the stairs, 42 levels go down to call my
(27:29):
parents down the street to a coin phone and I would have this
scratch card to scratch the code.
Then I would dial A number that was to connect me to Sweden.
And then I would do the 14 digitcode and it would say, OK, you
have 10 minutes left on the 10 minutes on the card, it gives
you 25 minutes. It'll connect me to my mum and
it would be a echo on the line and I would hang up and redo
(27:50):
that all again. And that you can hear that was
pain. You could hear how painful.
And now I use WhatsApp and it doesn't cost me any money at
all. So that is the hope I think.
And back then I thought it was amazing that I could even call
them because earlier on I, I hadmy grandparents in Norway and we
(28:10):
used to call them once a year because it was so expensive.
So I think if we're looking at that industry, it's really an
industry that I think we'd like let's try to borrow as much as
possible because they did it seamless, but of course they had
less challenges than the payments industry.
Love it. Where are we then if you compare
that phoning home to Sweden and you compare kind of where we are
(28:33):
on A and let's talk about maybe cross-border payments because I
think that's where you know, especially across within the
Asian region, that's where that fragmentation really plays a
part. Where are we on the scratching
off the 14 digits, the echo in line to a free, you know,
Internet enabled cool. Are we when it comes to
payments? I think we are on the scratching
card still. There is still a long way to go.
(28:56):
I so much more could be done, but here comes the challenge and
and so much time when we talk oncourse like this or in round
tables or even in the G20 project, we get stuck on
remittance because it's so closeto home and we felt the the
pain. It's another layel again when we
start to talk about B to B because it's different size of
(29:17):
the corporations, it's differentcorridors, it's cash rich, it's
time poor, it's all the different things that impact how
you would like to see your perfect payment.
I'm, I'm going to steal this analogy now because I really, I
really like it because I think, I think I remember actually
those days of having to scratch off yesterday.
That's your phone call. You think we're we're still on
(29:38):
the 14 digit scratch off code walking down 42 flights of
stairs in a high rise Australianbuilding.
I think, but it's very fancy that I lived in the penthouse
when I was a student. I have to add that one with we
did share a room three of us. So what needs to happen even to
get it down to, you know, a three digit scratch off what
(29:59):
what are the steps that that youand them and the EBAA members
are talking about that kind of because you've got the vision of
the the free Internet enabled phone call, but we're not going
to get there tomorrow. So what are the kind of
immediate kind of challenges that you and the team are
working on? So many challenges come down to
(30:21):
missing data or data that we can't share or data that is
entrusted. But I mean I could say oh,
interoperability, harmonisation,all those catchy words that we
use a lot. But I would say definitions and
definitions of different kind ofpayments and risk.
And with risk is like what what defines the risky payments?
(30:42):
So we can start to look at how can they be done smoothly
because some payments takes longer because they are riskier
also. But I think definitions around
what is sensitive data because there are some of the data that
are today can't travel cross borders, but might actually not
be sensitive. And then one of my favorite
(31:03):
words or acronyms for the last two years is pets.
And if we as an industry, this is something we're doing this
year's like really looking in more what what is privacy
enhancing technology? It was a thing for the last two
years when I used this acronym. I used to think of it like
privacy enhancing technology that will solve it because then
(31:25):
the privacy intact. But apparently so many different
flavours of privacy enhancing technology and coming back to we
need standards around it and then we need regulations and
policy how it can be used. But I do think it is something
in that technology that we haven't haven't looked close
enough on. Is that something that could
(31:46):
really enable more efficient andsecure cross-border payments?
I yes, hope that it will solve some of the challenges I'd
always seen as privacy enhancingtechnology 1 technology that
would make the data private and give you see a reproof answer to
questions like is Camilla older than 18?
(32:08):
Yes, you don't have to know my actual age and date, but it's
it's much more neons to that. We don't want to give the
sensitive data away, but we wantto have the proof.
Can I conduct this payment or not?
I would love more members. There are experts in privacy
enhancing technology because we as an industry need it to make
that data flow, which means payment flows and do.
(32:31):
You think that technology existsin other industry and it's a
matter of bringing what other industries have been through
into payment? Or do you feel it's definitely
net new builds and like innovation coming in this field
for us? I know, perfect question because
it's coming back to what I said before, it's to have the right
(32:53):
players in the room. So spoke to to one hopefully
member in the future. Terminal 3, I'm talking about
you. And they have been, they have
been very active within the government space and I think
even they've been active within the military and defence space.
And when we talked about what they've done there, I really had
(33:14):
the feeling like come and understand our industry.
Yes, as well as I'm saying our industry should go and
understand the corporates or or whoever they're dealing with.
Please you technology providers,take it, take a step in and
really see what the challenges is and the bottlenecks for that
data to flow. So the title of this podcast is
Money Travels and we always liketo ask our guests if they would
(33:41):
like to see someone in this showto talk about how money travels.
Who would you like to invite in this show?
Wow, this is like a little gift to get to get to do the wish
list. I think two female leaders that
I really look up to and that I think it would be great to have
on the show and for them to telltheir stories.
I would say Monica Yasuya, who'sbased in Delhi and knows
(34:05):
everything about the Indian payments landscape, but also
with a global lens that she's been with PayPal and MasterCard
before. She's a fantastic PPP.
And then I would also call out Kerry Swain, who's with Ant
Group and leading their government affairs team, and
that is on the call from going to market to market in different
(34:26):
regulation and building that network effect.
I think they've done a phenomenal work.
Yeah. So those would be the two
people. Listen committed.
Thank you so much for joining. It's been fantastic talking to
you. We've got a new kind of acronym
of PPP and I've got a great new analogy to steal of scratching
(34:47):
our 14 digits to call home from Australia and how that relates
to the famous industry. It's been really, really
interesting. Thank you for having it.
So that's it from Max and I thisweek.
To keep the conversation going, you can follow us on our socials
that are appearing on the bottomof your screen.
And also don't forget to follow the show on Spotify, subscribe
(35:10):
on YouTube. As always, if you've enjoyed
what you heard today, leave us areview.
Tell your friends or better still, do both.
We'll be back next episode to explore more life changing
innovations in digital finance. So wherever your travels take
you, remember to join us for thenext installment of Money
Travels presented by Visa.
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