June 8, 2025 • 49 mins
We’re joined by Matt Baxter to discuss what we thought was a horror film but turned out to be something quite different.Warning: This film and episode deal with suicide, murder, abortion, politics, religion, and pretty much most of the hot potato topics we generally try to eschew. Hopefully we do a decent job of discussing it.
Nefarious (streaming) – Affiliate Link
More on Blaze Media
Some reviews:
7th Day Adventist review
A Christian review with interesting comments
Reddit tackles Nefarious
Horror Obsessive – really didn’t care for the “bait & switch”
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/monstertalk--6267523/support.
Nefarious (streaming) – Affiliate Link
More on Blaze Media
Some reviews:
7th Day Adventist review
A Christian review with interesting comments
Reddit tackles Nefarious
Horror Obsessive – really didn’t care for the “bait & switch”
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/monstertalk--6267523/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Monster House presents.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Okay, James, we offer up a series of temptations, gradually
increasing in terms of duration and intensity, degree of moral
and equity. Essence of baptism in this case allows us
to begin work long before the age of reason. At
three dis five maybe at theft of a toy car
can do a great deal. Then we go into bigger
and better things at eight. Grandmother's gifts of a Ouiji
(00:31):
board gives immediate access to his decision making. So we
began steering them without them all, calling into question exactly
who's doing steering enough? Yes, isn't few enough?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Nos?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Gives increasing rights over the victims physical and mental processes.
Did that track, James?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It seems random almost. I'm focused.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Well, that's what we want you to think.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
We have a letle of focus beyond your comprehension.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
It's actually quite unlike anything.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
We've ever looking before.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
A giant, hairy creature, part ape, part Matt in Luckness,
a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the
Highlands of Scotland.
Speaker 6 (01:12):
It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monstertal.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
Blake Smith.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
And I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
There's lots of stuff going on here at Monster Talk
Manor and I'm working on some classic cryptid content, but
we're a little pressed for time this week, and Karen's
husband Matt suggested that we check out a movie he
was getting a lot of algorithmic nudges on, and that
turned out to be quite the ride. Spoilers. It was
packaged as a horror film, but it turned out to
be more of a stealth evangelical project. It's a twenty
(02:09):
twenty three indie film called Nefarious, and well, I can't
exactly recommend the film is horror, it certainly gave us
lots of stuff to talk about, so some warnings. The
film deals with the death penalty, abortion, suicide, murder, religion,
and politics, so there's going to be discussion that will
touch on many of these topics as well. So I
(02:30):
know we tend to steer away from stuff like this,
but hopefully we managed to navigate these with respectfulness and
you'll find our discussions of interest. Let's get to the Mobsterutle.
We were looking for what to record this week and
I had some ideas, but you problemted us with this film.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
So we blame him.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
You know, I didn't know what to expect because it's
not exactly it's not one of our based on a
true stories exactly, but it is an interesting film for
a lot of reasons, and it's I'm curious before we
get into what it's about, I'm curious, how did you
hear about it?
Speaker 5 (03:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Well, here's the thing. When I'm at work, often I'll
be playing YouTube videos and they go from one video
to the next, and YouTube kind of chooses what I
see next, but based on and often I leave my
office and I'm doing things and I come back and
now YouTube believes that I like all this stuff that
(03:26):
I've never even seen. So it's been telling me this week,
you really do like this movie.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
You really like this movie, so it's advertising for you.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I thought, well, okay, if if you know, YouTube says,
so it's got to be true. And I thought, hey,
let's you know. I got kind of the gist of
it from watching one short clip. I thought, Okay, this
sounds monstrous and we should talk about it.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
So it's not just an algorithm, it's your good plgorithm.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:01):
I had the impression that was a kind of modern
day Exorcist, and I guess I had some parallels to.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
That, a few and a lot of really stark differences that. Yeah,
I'm going to love highlighting because we've got, you know,
several movies that came to mind as I was watching this,
And should we mention what movie it is we're talking
about or should we just keep all the way through it.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Nefarious? Nefarious?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
A twenty twenty three indie horror film. Yeah, no, I
have to say the film.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
I didn't know that it's such good quality.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Well, it's got some money behind it. It's got some
money behind it. It's not like it's not two guys
in their parents' credit cards. It's it's it's.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
What I think of when I think of Indie.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yeah, what I noticed when I looked at the cast
before I hit play on this film, I said, oh,
that's interesting, and beck is in it. That's weird.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So yeah, we were using the same brain cell.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, I was like, that's a strange casting. But
it actually all makes sense. But I think maybe let's
let's let's spoil it after the after let's let's discuss it. Like, okay,
first of all, there's go to these spoilers let's talk
about the film for a little while then piecing together
what did we just say? What the hell does happened?
Speaker 5 (05:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Right, right right?
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
The other thing I noticed before we watch it is
the reviews are like critics are at like thirty three
percent and audiences are at ninety six percent, which is yeah, yeah, yeah,
and we'll discuss that too.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Well, you know, and I personally think that that you know,
high number really does carry through for most of the movie.
And it wasn't until the ending that I lost my
high rating of the movie. So you know, as long
as I ignore the ending, and I did it. They
(06:00):
had a lot of great things about it and a
lot of really scary, scary scary things about it, and.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
In the psychological sense and social yes, facing.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
You know, the reality of the world we're living in. Uh.
And you know, I mean we've all seen the Peace
Soup and Spinning Heads version of possession.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Uh that's the real version.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yeah, we've seen the real thing. But in this case,
you know, it's just yeah, we have to ask that question.
Does evil always have to be you know, loud and grotesque?
And what if it's rational, yeah, even likable? You know,
then Uh, that's pretty frightening in itself, right there, So
he thought, you know a time semon.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Charming.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah, I did adore the Demon at times.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Yeah, I mean so, I guess we should let me
lay down the plot. The basic plot is there is
a man named Edward Wayne Bray, not to be confused
with the comedian and Wayne Brady. He is played by
Sean Patrick Flannery, who people may know from The Bunda
Saints among other things, and he's being interviewed because he's
(07:16):
going to be executed, and according to the plot, they
need to do a last minute make sure he's not
actually mentally ill, he's competent to actually be executed. I
don't think this is like how things normally would go.
You wouldn't do this like hours before the execution, but
what do I know. Yeah, but the regular psychiatrist who's
(07:37):
supposed to be coming in jumps off a building right
before the movie really gets going, and so Sean Patrick
sorry Jordan Belfi is brought in as sort of the
last minute replacement doctor. Only it turns out that this
was all very well orchestrated by the Demon. If we're
(07:57):
to believe the story anyway, The question is, is this
guy crazy or is he really saying but he's possessed
by a really evil entity.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Now I noticed that, you know, the other movies or
pieces of literature that kind of came to mind while
watching this was, of course, The Exorcist, and I'll explain
why in a moment. But there was that. There was
Anne Rice's Memnoch the Devil, and there was Fallen with
(08:29):
Denzel Washington.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Yeah, Fallen especially, I thought, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
And have you ever read or do you know about
the Screwtape Letters.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
You know, it's a shame that I haven't, but I
know the C. S. Lewis wrote them, and that I
think John Cleese did a performance of them. It's supposed
to be quite good.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Oh M to look for that, because you know, it
is heavy on the satire. But the demon reminds me
of Screwtape. And basically what happens in the Screwtape Letters
is you've got this demon named Screwtape who is basically
counseling his nephew, Wormwood on how to tempt humanity and
(09:07):
how to get them going down that path. And there
was just a little bit of that personality in there
with this with this demon, and and it was. It
was really interesting. I mean because there was a real uh,
there was a lot of propaganda in this this. You know,
(09:28):
when The Exorcist came out, the Catholic Church had a
huge number of people converting to Catholicism, and I think
sort of, you know, right wing Christians were really hoping
for the same kind of effect with this.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah, this is heavy on the proselytizing.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yes, it is definitely heavy.
Speaker 6 (09:47):
Well, you've mentioned a number of books that focus on
exorcisms and demonic possession.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
But what I thought of was Sybil.
Speaker 6 (09:55):
So the book, oh, the movie, I thought of that
because they were the personality is Actually yeah, they did
actually mention the disorder disassociated identity disorder. It used to
be known as multiple personality disorders. Yes, so where someone
experiences too or more distinct personalities or identities as a
(10:15):
different different characters. And because we kept seeing this switch
between Edward and the Demon, that was what I kept
thinking of. I guess we'll get into this more too,
just talking about Edward and the Demon, the different characters.
But I certainly felt a lot of empathy for Edward
(10:37):
at times, and even though he's this serial killer who's
killed at least six people, possibly many more. You could
really see as this fiction is playing out that he's
the victim.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Yes, yeah, and it is, you know, heart wrenching at
times when you get to see how much joy Nefarious
gets out of his continued torturing of Edward, even down
to the double cheeseburger.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
Uh yeah, I want let him, let him have his
final meal.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, it's it's it's it is really sad. I mean
there was a lot of things that were very confronting
about this movie. Oh yeah, And I mean you've got
things like, let's let's talk about Fallen just for a moment.
A Zazel in Fallen I think really reminds me a
bit of COVID. You know. It was this thing that
(11:39):
would would just transfer by touch, and it was all
about destroying its host, you know, and so it's really indifferent.
You know the whole way through, Uh, the Exorcist Pazuzu
was about kind of destroying innocence and and you know,
making you feel that despair. Uh, And so it had
(12:00):
a slightly different thing. Now you've got Nefarious, who is
all about making you just kind of forget and not
notice and just numb, numb to what's going on right
in front of you, and not really pay attention to
it or think of it as evil. And I think
that that really unintentionally, I think that it really highlights
(12:27):
the world we're living in right now and how we
are constantly every day being numbed to Yeah, and the
things that are going on, you know, around us, and
we're just kind of you know, it's all theater. It's
all theater to us, and it's it shouldn't be. And
that's the part that hit me hard, even though that
wasn't even in the message. You know. The message was
(12:50):
you know, if you'll, if you'll allow me, you are
all infected with the woke mind virus and you think
that these non Christian things are okay, but they're not,
and it's all part of the demon coming to get you.
That's the bottom line of this whole movie. But the
(13:10):
things that I think we pick up from watching it
in our current you know, a climate is far more
scary than what they were intending to scare us with.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Well, how could they have learn a couple of years ago?
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
How could they from twenty sixteen on? How could they
have known.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Twenty twenty three? Yes, even more has happened.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's interesting that the film itself. Okay, so I kept
getting this vibe. I was like, this reminds me of
the sort of thing when I was growing up. They
would have movies where they would bring them into the
church and they would have like a movie night, and
it would be like some Christian values film would be
(13:59):
shown instead of instead of like, instead of in a
movie theater, you'd show it at.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
The church, a very special episode of Family Times.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Yeah, yeah, but I I I'm not far off. I
mean to say, you know, it's heavy handed propaganda, like
I mean it, I don't there's a very strong It's
weird to me because there's absolutely a very strong Christian
message here, but it's not exactly to the level I
(14:28):
would have expected given the people who put it together. Right,
So it turns out the directors here, Carrie Solomon and
Chuck Consulman, are the people behind God's Not Dead and
that that those fine cinema features and you know, and
so our protagonist in this film, the psychiatrist, is portrayed
(14:50):
as being an atheist, and the demon goes to this
whole thing about you know, you'd have to invite me
in and He's like, Okay, you know, come on in,
you know, and then I'm going to spoil it. At
the end of the film, there's a very tense moment
where it seems like maybe the demon has taken over
and take it. He's he's gonna actually cause him to suicide,
(15:12):
which makes no sense because he told him he was
going to publish his book, and like, so his whole
thing was he wants to publish a book, which is them.
Speaker 6 (15:20):
You know. That was an interesting kind of contrast to
the Bible. I loved him referring to the Carpenter.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah. Yeah, but it's like I don't understand, Like it's
so simplistic in a way. It's like, hey, you know,
you guys have your Bible. We're going to do our
dark evangelism, and we're going to have this book about
me the demon nefarious and how you know how to
(15:51):
take over the world? Right, that's and it's going to
be a book, because when you want to change the world,
you definitely want a book. That's how you do it.
People love to read. People are always sitting down and
reading their books.
Speaker 6 (16:04):
Yes, I guess around for thousands of years, he is.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Not caught up. He should be on TikTok is I
guess what I say.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And that's the thing, you know, being around for thousands
of years, the amount of time that we've been exposed
to TikTok is a very short so he's still just
a little behind.
Speaker 6 (16:23):
I think the whole film was was simplistic and intended
to be that way. I mean, it all centers on
the psycho, one room, one table, prisoner sitting there. I mean,
that is that's hard work for from a writing perspective
and an acting perspective.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
I mean, Sean Patrick Flannery was I mean knocking it
out of the park. But you know it's it's not
Jordan Belfie's fault, I guess, but he felt like he
was on a TV show, and Flannery felt like he
was going for the Oscar. I don't know he was really.
Speaker 6 (16:56):
I mean he could tell when he was the Demon
because he had that twet yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yeah, if and the Heath Ledger joker dry mouth yeah yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
I mean yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
He brought a lot of really clear acting to it.
I mean like he made character tics and like gave
you clear indications when he was hopping back and forth
between his two roles. I don't know. I was very
impressed by him, not so much by the script. And
again I'm super open minded to it doesn't bother me
if a film has, you know, religious undertones or whatever
(17:33):
or overtones if it's a good movie. And I think
what happened at the end, as you say, it sort
of collapsed into a hyper simplistic, predictable conclusion that kind
of spoiled where it seemed like it was going. I
don't know, That's just my take, but I definitely got
the vibe that this would be a thing that you
could have shown at a church, and maybe people did,
(17:54):
and that the ninety six percent approval ready for the
audience is probably Christian love bombing on the review.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Oh yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean,
but but you know, being a demonic possession fan that
I am, as we all are, yes, I did enjoy
a lot of aspects of it, you know, I enjoyed
the points where the demon was leading him down the
(18:23):
path of this is all fake, I'm you know. In
the Book of the Exorcist, uh Pazuzu did that to
Father Karras where they found evidence in her room that
she had been reading about cults and everything, so her
knowledge about this was was not diabolical. Uh, And so
(18:43):
he's thinking this whole thing, I can't do an exorcism,
this is not you know, this is not real. This
girl is is faking. And you know, the demon does
the same thing here. We're calling doubt, you know, into
his mind. And I really appreciated the fact that they
kind of kept that kind of personality or that thought
(19:03):
process of a demon what I And I liked it
too when he said, you know, invite me in, come on,
invite me in. And then he doesn't take him up
onto it and take him up on it, you know,
kind of a much too vulgar display of power. And
he just said, you know, patience, And of course I
knew what was going to happen the minute he said patience.
(19:24):
I knew what was coming. But the fact that this
diabolically intelligent being set things up so beautifully to fail
so stupidly disappointed me, because you know, if he was
really that diabolically intelligent, it would not have ended the
way it did, and we would have been in much
(19:45):
more despair, such as at the end of Fallen you
know where the demon keeps going. Now, it did show
us that the demon was still there and still going.
But then it makes you wonder what was the point
of the whole display.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Yeah, it really.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
Well, it could have gone lots of different ways. I
was wondering if the demon was going to be transferred
into the psychiatrist. I just wasn't really sure what was
going to happen. But what I did like was the.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And that's what the foreshadowing told us.
Speaker 6 (20:13):
Well, yeah, I think it did lead us astray a
number of times, and one of those times was when
the priest came in. I really thought he was going
to factor more into the rest of the movie, but
I thought it was interesting the way that threw a
self balance with him coming in and the demon was
very worked up and fearful of him, but then he
just assured him, Oh, well, these kinds of things don't exist.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
I don't do exorcisms, and he just dismissed all of that.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
So I don't know what his his religious background was,
but he certainly didn't.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yeah, I mean that whole thing to me just kind
of showed that the even the church has been infected,
you know, with this.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
You know, bor skepticism.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, you know, this whole just numbness of what's going
on in front of them. They've all been infected with it.
You know. It's like one of the great quotes bottom line.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
As you're done, it's over. That's it. And we did
it all right to your face, James, And now there's
evil everywhere and no one even cares. Yeah, I don't agree,
proving that we achieved our goal slowly with your movies,
your TV and your media, which sensitized you, redirected your
(21:33):
worldview to the point that you can't even recognize evil
when it's right in front of your face. More to
the point, James, you can't even feel it when you're
doing it. And that's for winners and losers, Bobo. That
gets decided at the time of death. These act numbers
are closely guarded secret. But there are more of you
ending up in my master's house than with the enemy,
(21:56):
a lot more.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
I mean, you know, evil didn't barge in. It just
asked nicely and waited quietly, you know. And that's much
more intelligent and terrifying, I think than just this monster
comes stomping in to have it be really brilliant and
play chess with you, And this demon played chess so
(22:20):
well throughout this movie untill the end.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
But why Okay, So this has been a problem with
the whole demonic possession Faustian bargain thing from the very beginning.
I never understood this exactly, the idea that you would
need to bargain for your soul with the devil in
order to get benefits. Okay, because at least the way
(22:47):
I was brought up as an evangelical, the idea is
because of original sin, if you haven't made a relationship
with Christ and accepted him as your personal ordered savior,
then you're already doomed to hell. So to what advantage
is it to the devil to give you when he bargained,
because he's already got your soul. So it really doesn't
I mean, that has never made any theological sense to
(23:10):
me that you might be able to bargain it away
unless you had given your you know, your heart to
God and now you're like pulling it back to sell it,
you know, like you know, maybe that would make sense.
I don't know, but I mean, in this case, the
demon specifically talks about how that he got this guy,
(23:30):
he got control of Brady, because it started out with
his parents failing to baptize him, and then from there
it was just a series of decisions after decisions until
he had won him over completely and taken control. And
it's like, well, you know, I mean as a metaphor, sure, yeah,
(23:50):
that works great, but from theologically it doesn't really work
great for me.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Right now, we do have to have a nothing another
spoiler here, and that is that this movie is being
reviewed by three atheists.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
Well I have to say at this point, I'm really
glad that I was raised in a mostly secular country.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
You have to think about things like this, and it's
just what it wasted.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Well, you know, we talked about last week about how
with with the Bothy's, how you know, they would make
up stories about a Bothy to keep people away, and
these days they make up stories to draw people in.
And it really kind of makes us, you know, wonder
what numbs us more because I remember they used to say,
(24:46):
you don't don't watch horror films, you're just going to
get numb to it all. And you know, horror films
or or are going to you know, make it so
you don't see what's coming because you think it's all
fake and all that kind of stuff that in the eighties,
I was hit with that a lot. But I have
to wonder what numbs us more horror movies or headlines,
(25:08):
because it seems like we're in an age now where
we're just constantly being numbed. And that's kind of what
Nefarious was telling us. You know, you're being bombarded all
the time with all this stuff that makes everything you
do okay. You know when he says, when when the
psychiatrist says to him about the whole you know, abortion
(25:31):
part of it, trigger.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Warning, there a few of those content warnings.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Yeah, yeah, uh, he says, it's complicated. And that's like
the best, you know, excuse for anything that you don't
want to face is to just say it's complicated. And
you know, of course Nefarius loved that answer, just laughed hysterically,
(25:58):
and you know, and I love how he said, what
was it, uh, hate crimes or hate speech.
Speaker 6 (26:04):
Speech that we invented that ourselves, that wasn't even of Satan.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, it's like we love you for that, you know.
So yeah, there was a lot of interesting things. And
it's funny because I think a lot of Christians believe
that they've got the market cornered when it comes to morality.
And the thing is is that that the morality over
that higher ground is often pretty immoral, you know, they
(26:33):
you know, looking into which a future topic will be
haunted cheets, and itzza looking at how the religious leaders
there mirrored Christianity in terms of keeping people uneducated, keeping
people you know, in their place through promises or fear,
(26:55):
so they right, so they can usurp all the power.
And that's where the the you know, the the morality
doesn't lie, you know, is is there is the fact
that the these these religious leaders throughout history have always
(27:16):
kept truths from the people so they could hold the power.
And so I think it's interesting that you've got this
this Christian group basically making this movie, putting it out
there as another big warning that don't get smart, don't
go get an education now because.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Let's you're exactly right, the psychiatrist is an atheist, and
that seems to put him in special jeopardy, right, yes,
because he's he's ill equipped to fight a demon, although
I think he actually holds his own pretty well. But
what's really confusing to me is at the end when
he's in that Glenn Beck cameo moment, which I assume
(27:57):
means he died and went to Hell, because otherwise, why
does he hang out with glenb Bag exactly.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
A hah.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
But Glen Glenn's like, you know, well, how did you
get through all this? And he's like, well, I'm still
trying to work all that out, you know, And he's like, well,
you know, if you keep at it, you'll get there.
You know. What he basically means is, you know, or
he seems to be implying, you will come to understand
that God is real and that Christ loves you, and
that this is how you've escaped, Except that that doesn't
(28:24):
make any sense because when we last saw him prior
to that jump cut, he was struggling with the police
and was trying to off himself. And the next thing
we know, he's successfully published this book but does not
appear to have reconciled himself with God in any way.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
So, oh no, he was wearing a sweater.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Yeah, well, okay, well here is that That's a good point.
I didn't think about that. Is that coding for he's
accepted Christ.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I think one of the big problems with this review
was we only had a chance to watch it once,
you could watch it more than once, you would notice
things like the sweater.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
That's a good point. It seemed like he was still
on a path towards trying to figure things out.
Speaker 6 (29:11):
And maybe that's why he encountered the demon again on
the way out. Yeah, maybe unfinished business.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Now, I guess we should point out that the author
of this the novel is Steve and I think he's
pronounced d de a ce and he is a conservative
talk show host on Glenn Beck's Blaze Network. So the
novels published. I don't actually know who published the novel,
but he's obviously using the Glymbec Blaze production company stuff
(29:44):
for the for the making of this film, so it seems.
And again from a business perspective, I cannot argue against
consolidating and collaboration and all that stuff that's good. I
just I don't like these films where they're heavy on
the proselytizing and heavy handed. And I guess I don't
(30:06):
mind a film outing a positive message, it's just I
don't want it to be so preaty.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
You know.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
Well, if I may, I went and looked up the
book just then, and so the publisher's Post Hill Press,
so I haven't heard of them before, but their ranking
is that it is. It's listed under political fiction, and
that's literature and fiction and American literature, So I.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Think that that's a little bit of a giveaway.
Speaker 6 (30:34):
I mean, wow, the ratings are really high on this here,
twenty two hundred reviews and almost five stars, So yeah,
I think there's some nefariousness going on behind it.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Well, you know, I have to say that there was
a lot of good stuff in this in this film
in terms of entertainment and being thought provoking and things
like that. But the bottom line is, is is it
a supernatural thriller a thriller? Or is it a theological
(31:09):
pamphlet disguised as a horror film? And I think it's
kind of both.
Speaker 6 (31:14):
Sorry, I'm looking at the reviews and the editorial reviews
of by Ted Cruz Ben Shapiro, So yeah, I think
that tells us which way they swink. But oh, Kirk Cameron,
Oh yeah, I told her what this movie was about.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
She's like, oh, is Kirk Cameron in it?
Speaker 6 (31:33):
And I'm like, no, right, wait, he's the biggest one
great comfort. Yay, what do you think this movie hasn't
it then for our listeners, for skeptics.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
It's not as heavy handed as God's not dead, So
there's that, But.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
I still found it to be, like, is that pretty entertaining?
And I enjoyed a lot of the aspects of you know,
other horror films that I enjoyed being you know, sort
of a called upon in a sense, and so it
was it was a different take on a demon. It
(32:15):
was a kind of a good warning to don't get
numb to the injustices being held right in front of
you in the headlines on the social media every single day.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
They're trying to say too. I mean, that's the irony.
I think that that's how they see us.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yes, yes, it's there. They're you know, in a sense,
looking in a very you know, damaged, dirty mirror. But
it is a mirror, so you know, they're not quite
we're not seeing each other quite the way we should be.
But well, I met there's some similarities.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
I never like it when a movie talks about atheists
though they're they're immoral or amoral, and I'm like, no,
I mean also with any Christian based, you know film,
there's a lot of them have that sort of subtext
that oh, by the way, if you're not one of us,
(33:10):
you're evil. And yeah, by the way, that means, oh,
I don't know, four fifths of the world is evil,
you know. I mean like there's a lot of people
out there who are just simply never exposed to Christianity
and that's never going to be a religion for them,
and so by Christian's theology, they're doomed to hell. So
I mean, it's there's religions complicated. This is why we
(33:32):
usually don't talk about it very much on here, because
I don't believe in it, and I think it's important,
but I don't. I think it's culturally important, and I
understand the comfort people get from it, but it doesn't
work for me. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
So well, you know, if we step back and go, okay,
well I just watched Lord of the Rings. Do I
believe in Hobbits?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
No?
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Did I enjoy Lord?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
I wouldn't let me read the line the witch in
the wardrobe because I had wits in it.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
My mom wouldn't because it had Turkish delight in it.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
I'm just telling you, what what does that mean to you? Diabetes?
What exactly? No?
Speaker 7 (34:26):
I mean, well, we have you right where we want
you then, you know, it's I just think that you know,
I love demonic possession movies, and I think the fact.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
That this is, like I said, a bit of a
a pamphlet for you know, theology. Uh, it is not
that big of a deal to me because I saw
it for what it was in that sense, but the
story itself with the you know, I like, I like demons,
and I like people fighting against them, and I think
it's fun and I I always like dialog.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
There's lots of good dialogue, great dialogue.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
So there's no reason you can't enjoy this movie and
and feel like you have to run out and get baptized.
It's just just sorry.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Do you remember so before Snopes kind of blew up
in weird ways, they used to have a whole section
called Blurges, which would be like someone takes a story
and then they would like not it up to another
level of like over heavy handed, sympathetic or treakily kind
(35:40):
of content. So it's like a thing could be okay
and interesting, but to make to make it go that
extra mile, they would like pump like fifteen to twenty
pounds of extra heartstrings into a five pound sack, right,
it felt like that at the end, like it was
really rare. Mpened it up at the end, and I
(36:01):
think if it had stuck with more ambiguity and maybe
not quite gone so heavy handed in the end, I
think that would have been really cool. I think there
was a lot of good to work with here, and
Briggan hell Sean Patrick Flenny did a great job with
the acting so and.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
Things I do well he did.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
And I just want to raise just how many topics
are in this film. We're very disturbing a lot of
the topics that they raised, but I think most of
all just the death penalty and for me that the
moral and ethical concerns.
Speaker 5 (36:33):
About that, and.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
It seemed to be a good example of wrongful conviction
as well, and just coming from a country where this
is outlawed, it was just very confronting and horrifying to
hear about the nature of this form of execution and just.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
Be exposed to that. I could love that during those scenes.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
It was very disturbing, the depiction of the the Uh,
the execution was harsh. It was definitely harsh, and uh,
you know, it's not the only movie that that's done it. Again.
We can talk about Fallen for that as well. But yeah,
(37:20):
especially when you're I think, yeah, yeah, it really was.
I mean the fact is that a human life was
being taken is one thing. Another thing is feeling like
that human life. The human in there was innocent, he.
Speaker 6 (37:36):
Was going to be the one left to suffer, and
the demon just enjoyed watching and not being well, he
actually enjoyed those experiences.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, yeah, that was that was rough. That was rough, definitely.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
But yeah, I don't know what you stand on things
like maybe we didn't want to go down that philosophical.
Speaker 5 (37:53):
Group, but yeah, I mean the violation of the right
to life.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Well, the film dealt with abortion and the death penalty
and euthanasia. It may really crammed a whole lot of uh,
you know, socially challenging issues in a in a in
a real small package, and you know, it took the well,
(38:20):
this is a sin, so therefore it's wrong kind of ground,
which I guess the point of the atheist character would be. No,
you know, in your world it's a moral question, and
other people's it's an ethical question. In other ways it's
it's you know, it doesn't the mom have you know,
there's all these questions, right.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
It's complicated.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
It's complicated. It is complicated. So you know, in the
simplistic world of of this moral universe, it isn't complicated.
It's there's very clear delineation between what's a sin and
what's not a sin, except that that's not really true either.
I mean, the truth is it sins them get quite complicated,
(39:01):
and the way people work around them gets quite complicated.
The way people self justify gets quite complicated. It's almost
like you need some deity to come around and sort
it out, you know, It's almost it is almost like that.
Speaker 5 (39:12):
Yeah, so I.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Applaud them for trying. I don't know the I again,
it was a little too heavy handed and proselytizing or
heavy handed is the thing I keep coming back to.
It was just a little over the top. But I
really like something.
Speaker 5 (39:32):
Lost towards the end. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Well, you know, one of the things that I want
to kind of relate those to and my personal enjoyment
of the film is, you know, Karen had written a
book years ago called God Bless America, and one of
them that yes, yes, this is a thinly veiled pamphlet
for Karen's books. Now, the thing is with this we
(39:58):
went and we sat in on various different religious gatherings,
you know, from scientology to Amish to you know, various
things along the way and right right, But the thing
about it was we knew what to expect when we
went in, so we weren't surprised by anything that happened.
(40:22):
And damn if we didn't have a good time. And
I think that that's how this film needs to be
looked at. You know what it is, you know what's
going on, but you know what it is, a fun, dirty,
bumpy ride. Go for it. It's fiction. Yeah, so, and
and you know, as long as you don't sort of
(40:44):
fall into their trappings anymore than they claim we've fallen
into trappings, just enjoy the film.
Speaker 5 (40:53):
And anyway, it was not any kind of theological alway.
Speaker 6 (41:00):
I really just hoped it was going to be more
along the lines of The Exorcist.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
The Exorcist converted some people. This film is not going
to convert anybody.
Speaker 5 (41:11):
Yeah, I don't see how it could, but you never know.
In this country.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Well, if you saw it in a church where it
was followed up by some.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Think they would really show something like this.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
But the thing is is, if you're already in the church.
You're not going to get by this film.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Yeah, I guess it's just going to reinforce your belief exactly.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
There's a section in the bookstore that's called Christian fiction
and this always makes my wife laugh, but anyway, that
it's full of litology, you know, and there's different sort
of epithets for it. But things like left Behind, you know,
these kind of stories set in an apocalyptic setting. Uh,
(41:59):
you know there basically leaning and heavy on you know, congratulations,
you've made it to Revelations. You know, Well, you're.
Speaker 5 (42:05):
Making me think.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
You're making me think of Bob Larsen, and he's kind
of Christian porn his books.
Speaker 5 (42:11):
Yeah, what were those coming up for air or something?
Who is books?
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Then you head one about a radio DJ on the
air it was.
Speaker 8 (42:20):
A satanic panic, Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean
he has all of his books and it's difficult to
tell the difference between his fiction and his supposed reality.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
Yeah, his non fiction books, it's all the same.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Like I Martin, I mean, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:40):
Larson's Book of Spiritual Warfare. But yeah, it does remind.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Me of that, Yes, that that book was called Dead Air, Dead.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Air, Yeah, coming up wanted to do after this movie.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
Yeah that's funny, but yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:59):
It's just just through interesting different perspectives. Is to me,
this would just be wholly inappropriate to really show in
any kind of group environment, unless you're just hanging out
with inappropriate.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
You know, you took the words out of my mouth.
I was going to ask that same question.
Speaker 5 (43:15):
Well again, I think.
Speaker 6 (43:17):
Really glad I grew up in mostly secular environments and yeah,
that's just.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
These are all big issues. I mean, the the thing
about Christianity or any religion I guess that has these
prescriptions for behavior is if they're right, Like, you know,
the implications are quite serious, right, so you know I
don't believe them because there's so many religions and uh,
you know I I my parents got upset with me
(43:48):
because you know, I came out as an atheist and
my dad was like, well, maybe you just need to
study the Bible more. And I'm like, no, no, no, I
think you misunderstand. I didn't become an atheist by studying
the Bible rarely. I became an atheist because I read
a lot about the Bible and read the Bible. It's like,
you know, I'm overread, not underread. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
But there is a reason that we have Pascal's wager,
and that's I mean, that's where we stand with this
whole thing. Is it's I'm not sure better safe than sorry,
which is a terrible version.
Speaker 6 (44:26):
Yeah, well, yeah, I think a lot of people are
prone to that. But yeah, certainly I'm starting to have
discussions with our.
Speaker 5 (44:35):
Son about that. Right now.
Speaker 6 (44:36):
I'm talking about all of the various religions in the world,
the world religions and indigenous ones, and they all think
that they're right. How can they all possibly be right
with all the conflicting plans and that they all have
that righteousness and well, and it.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
Can't seem to be left alone at personal choice. It's
these people want to get political power and then and
make their moral choices into the legal choices for everyone else.
And that's that's hardly fair. So if if it was
just about personal, you know, your own beliefs, I don't
think I would care what people believe so much. But
it's when they have their beliefs and now they want
(45:15):
to inflict them on me, that's why I really get
bothered by it.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
So separated.
Speaker 4 (45:20):
Yeah, yeah, allegedly, Yeah, it's Anyway, I don't like politics,
and I don't really like discussion religion because it's so divisive,
and I think we've done a good job of talking
around some of that stuff. And again I don't I'm
not an evangelical atheist. I just that's where I've landed
is in the non believer world. But I still enjoy
(45:41):
going to religious meetings, and I love camaraderie and the
friendship of many Christian communities, and I appreciate.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
A lot of the things too.
Speaker 4 (45:49):
So I just I don't hate Christianity. I just I'm
just I. Yeah, it's not I. I have come down
real hard is I don't believe in this and I'm
not inclined to change.
Speaker 6 (46:02):
And both of you have unique perspectives. Yeah, not much
has changed for me, but for you guys, certainly.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
We've come from some very interesting places in our past
to get to it.
Speaker 4 (46:16):
Stealthy evangelicism through cinema is one of those recurring things,
and I guess this sort of fits into that, Melu.
But as these things go, I enjoyed this one a
lot more than anything I've seen with Kurt Cameron or
Kevin Sorbo or any of these other things. So it's
(46:38):
certainly not the worst. How about that? Well, anyway, I
think that concludes Nefarious You've been forewarned, is forearmed.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
And various film in many ways.
Speaker 4 (46:51):
Yeah, all right, anyway, thanks for listening. We'll see you
again next week.
Speaker 5 (46:55):
Thank you. Mortle.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
You've been listening to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 4 (47:07):
So you just heard Matt Baxter, Karen and myself discussing
the twenty twenty three film Nefarious. A link to the
film and some articles about it will be in the
show notes. Was it a horror movie? It was so close,
But like Matt, I think the ending underminds both its
premise and its potential. We hope you enjoyed this episode
(47:27):
of Monster Talk. Our goal here is to bring you
the best in monster related content with a focus on
scientific skepticism and critical thinking. If you enjoy our show
and want to support our mission, start out by visiting
monster talk dot org forward slash support. That's monster talk
dot org forward slash Support. There you'll find links to
(47:48):
our Patreon page, as well as a donate button if
you'd like to just make a one time contribution. A
great way to support the show is to buy books
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(48:11):
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(48:31):
that keeps monsters away from someone you love. Monster Talks
theme music is by Pete Stealing Monkeys.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Mh, this has been a Monster House presentation.
Speaker 6 (49:32):
You said that you would prove to me your redeemon,
but all you've done is waste my time, my turn.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
I want to talk to Edward Wayne Brady.
Speaker 5 (49:42):
Is Wayne Brady going to have the choke a bit
Monster House presents.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Okay, James, we offer up a series of temptations, gradually
increasing in terms of duration and intensity, degree of moral
and equity. Essence of baptism in this case allows us
to begin work long before the age of reason. At
three dis five maybe at theft of a toy car
can do a great deal. Then we go into bigger
and better things at eight. Grandmother's gifts of a Ouiji
(00:31):
board gives immediate access to his decision making. So we
began steering them without them all, calling into question exactly
who's doing steering enough? Yes, isn't few enough?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Nos?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Gives increasing rights over the victims physical and mental processes.
Did that track, James?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It seems random almost. I'm focused.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Well, that's what we want you to think.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
We have a letle of focus beyond your comprehension.
Speaker 5 (00:58):
It's actually quite unlike anything.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
We've ever looking before.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
A giant, hairy creature, part ape, part Matt in Luckness,
a twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the
Highlands of Scotland.
Speaker 6 (01:12):
It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. Monstertal.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters. I'm
Blake Smith.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
And I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
There's lots of stuff going on here at Monster Talk
Manor and I'm working on some classic cryptid content, but
we're a little pressed for time this week, and Karen's
husband Matt suggested that we check out a movie he
was getting a lot of algorithmic nudges on, and that
turned out to be quite the ride. Spoilers. It was
packaged as a horror film, but it turned out to
be more of a stealth evangelical project. It's a twenty
(02:09):
twenty three indie film called Nefarious, and well, I can't
exactly recommend the film is horror, it certainly gave us
lots of stuff to talk about, so some warnings. The
film deals with the death penalty, abortion, suicide, murder, religion,
and politics, so there's going to be discussion that will
touch on many of these topics as well. So I
(02:30):
know we tend to steer away from stuff like this,
but hopefully we managed to navigate these with respectfulness and
you'll find our discussions of interest. Let's get to the Mobsterutle.
We were looking for what to record this week and
I had some ideas, but you problemted us with this film.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
So we blame him.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
You know, I didn't know what to expect because it's
not exactly it's not one of our based on a
true stories exactly, but it is an interesting film for
a lot of reasons, and it's I'm curious before we
get into what it's about, I'm curious, how did you
hear about it?
Speaker 5 (03:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Well, here's the thing. When I'm at work, often I'll
be playing YouTube videos and they go from one video
to the next, and YouTube kind of chooses what I
see next, but based on and often I leave my
office and I'm doing things and I come back and
now YouTube believes that I like all this stuff that
(03:26):
I've never even seen. So it's been telling me this week,
you really do like this movie.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
You really like this movie, so it's advertising for you.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
I thought, well, okay, if if you know, YouTube says,
so it's got to be true. And I thought, hey,
let's you know. I got kind of the gist of
it from watching one short clip. I thought, Okay, this
sounds monstrous and we should talk about it.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
So it's not just an algorithm, it's your good plgorithm.
Speaker 5 (03:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (04:01):
I had the impression that was a kind of modern
day Exorcist, and I guess I had some parallels to.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
That, a few and a lot of really stark differences that. Yeah,
I'm going to love highlighting because we've got, you know,
several movies that came to mind as I was watching this,
And should we mention what movie it is we're talking
about or should we just keep all the way through it.
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Nefarious? Nefarious?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
A twenty twenty three indie horror film. Yeah, no, I
have to say the film.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
I didn't know that it's such good quality.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
Well, it's got some money behind it. It's got some
money behind it. It's not like it's not two guys
in their parents' credit cards. It's it's it's.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
What I think of when I think of Indie.
Speaker 4 (04:52):
Yeah, what I noticed when I looked at the cast
before I hit play on this film, I said, oh,
that's interesting, and beck is in it. That's weird.
Speaker 3 (05:02):
So yeah, we were using the same brain cell.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, I was like, that's a strange casting. But
it actually all makes sense. But I think maybe let's
let's let's spoil it after the after let's let's discuss it. Like, okay,
first of all, there's go to these spoilers let's talk
about the film for a little while then piecing together
what did we just say? What the hell does happened?
Speaker 5 (05:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:23):
Right, right right?
Speaker 5 (05:25):
Oh.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
The other thing I noticed before we watch it is
the reviews are like critics are at like thirty three
percent and audiences are at ninety six percent, which is yeah, yeah, yeah,
and we'll discuss that too.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Well, you know, and I personally think that that you know,
high number really does carry through for most of the movie.
And it wasn't until the ending that I lost my
high rating of the movie. So you know, as long
as I ignore the ending, and I did it. They
(06:00):
had a lot of great things about it and a
lot of really scary, scary scary things about it, and.
Speaker 5 (06:08):
In the psychological sense and social yes, facing.
Speaker 3 (06:13):
You know, the reality of the world we're living in. Uh.
And you know, I mean we've all seen the Peace
Soup and Spinning Heads version of possession.
Speaker 5 (06:22):
Uh that's the real version.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Yeah, we've seen the real thing. But in this case,
you know, it's just yeah, we have to ask that question.
Does evil always have to be you know, loud and grotesque?
And what if it's rational, yeah, even likable? You know,
then Uh, that's pretty frightening in itself, right there, So
he thought, you know a time semon.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Charming.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Yeah, I did adore the Demon at times.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Yeah, I mean so, I guess we should let me
lay down the plot. The basic plot is there is
a man named Edward Wayne Bray, not to be confused
with the comedian and Wayne Brady. He is played by
Sean Patrick Flannery, who people may know from The Bunda
Saints among other things, and he's being interviewed because he's
(07:16):
going to be executed, and according to the plot, they
need to do a last minute make sure he's not
actually mentally ill, he's competent to actually be executed. I
don't think this is like how things normally would go.
You wouldn't do this like hours before the execution, but
what do I know. Yeah, but the regular psychiatrist who's
(07:37):
supposed to be coming in jumps off a building right
before the movie really gets going, and so Sean Patrick
sorry Jordan Belfi is brought in as sort of the
last minute replacement doctor. Only it turns out that this
was all very well orchestrated by the Demon. If we're
(07:57):
to believe the story anyway, The question is, is this
guy crazy or is he really saying but he's possessed
by a really evil entity.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Now I noticed that, you know, the other movies or
pieces of literature that kind of came to mind while
watching this was, of course, The Exorcist, and I'll explain
why in a moment. But there was that. There was
Anne Rice's Memnoch the Devil, and there was Fallen with
(08:29):
Denzel Washington.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Yeah, Fallen especially, I thought, yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
And have you ever read or do you know about
the Screwtape Letters.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
You know, it's a shame that I haven't, but I
know the C. S. Lewis wrote them, and that I
think John Cleese did a performance of them. It's supposed
to be quite good.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Oh M to look for that, because you know, it
is heavy on the satire. But the demon reminds me
of Screwtape. And basically what happens in the Screwtape Letters
is you've got this demon named Screwtape who is basically
counseling his nephew, Wormwood on how to tempt humanity and
(09:07):
how to get them going down that path. And there
was just a little bit of that personality in there
with this with this demon, and and it was. It
was really interesting. I mean because there was a real uh,
there was a lot of propaganda in this this. You know,
(09:28):
when The Exorcist came out, the Catholic Church had a
huge number of people converting to Catholicism, and I think
sort of, you know, right wing Christians were really hoping
for the same kind of effect with this.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Yeah, this is heavy on the proselytizing.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Yes, it is definitely heavy.
Speaker 6 (09:47):
Well, you've mentioned a number of books that focus on
exorcisms and demonic possession.
Speaker 5 (09:53):
But what I thought of was Sybil.
Speaker 6 (09:55):
So the book, oh, the movie, I thought of that
because they were the personality is Actually yeah, they did
actually mention the disorder disassociated identity disorder. It used to
be known as multiple personality disorders. Yes, so where someone
experiences too or more distinct personalities or identities as a
(10:15):
different different characters. And because we kept seeing this switch
between Edward and the Demon, that was what I kept
thinking of. I guess we'll get into this more too,
just talking about Edward and the Demon, the different characters.
But I certainly felt a lot of empathy for Edward
(10:37):
at times, and even though he's this serial killer who's
killed at least six people, possibly many more. You could
really see as this fiction is playing out that he's
the victim.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Yes, yeah, and it is, you know, heart wrenching at
times when you get to see how much joy Nefarious
gets out of his continued torturing of Edward, even down
to the double cheeseburger.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
Uh yeah, I want let him, let him have his
final meal.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, it's it's it's it is really sad. I mean
there was a lot of things that were very confronting
about this movie. Oh yeah, And I mean you've got
things like, let's let's talk about Fallen just for a moment.
A Zazel in Fallen I think really reminds me a
bit of COVID. You know. It was this thing that
(11:39):
would would just transfer by touch, and it was all
about destroying its host, you know, and so it's really indifferent.
You know the whole way through, Uh, the Exorcist Pazuzu
was about kind of destroying innocence and and you know,
making you feel that despair. Uh, And so it had
(12:00):
a slightly different thing. Now you've got Nefarious, who is
all about making you just kind of forget and not
notice and just numb, numb to what's going on right
in front of you, and not really pay attention to
it or think of it as evil. And I think
that that really unintentionally, I think that it really highlights
(12:27):
the world we're living in right now and how we
are constantly every day being numbed to Yeah, and the
things that are going on, you know, around us, and
we're just kind of you know, it's all theater. It's
all theater to us, and it's it shouldn't be. And
that's the part that hit me hard, even though that
wasn't even in the message. You know. The message was
(12:50):
you know, if you'll, if you'll allow me, you are
all infected with the woke mind virus and you think
that these non Christian things are okay, but they're not,
and it's all part of the demon coming to get you.
That's the bottom line of this whole movie. But the
(13:10):
things that I think we pick up from watching it
in our current you know, a climate is far more
scary than what they were intending to scare us with.
Speaker 5 (13:24):
Well, how could they have learn a couple of years ago?
Speaker 4 (13:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
How could they from twenty sixteen on? How could they
have known.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Twenty twenty three? Yes, even more has happened.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
It's interesting that the film itself. Okay, so I kept
getting this vibe. I was like, this reminds me of
the sort of thing when I was growing up. They
would have movies where they would bring them into the
church and they would have like a movie night, and
it would be like some Christian values film would be
(13:59):
shown instead of instead of like, instead of in a
movie theater, you'd show it at.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
The church, a very special episode of Family Times.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Yeah, yeah, but I I I'm not far off. I
mean to say, you know, it's heavy handed propaganda, like
I mean it, I don't there's a very strong It's
weird to me because there's absolutely a very strong Christian
message here, but it's not exactly to the level I
(14:28):
would have expected given the people who put it together. Right,
So it turns out the directors here, Carrie Solomon and
Chuck Consulman, are the people behind God's Not Dead and
that that those fine cinema features and you know, and
so our protagonist in this film, the psychiatrist, is portrayed
(14:50):
as being an atheist, and the demon goes to this
whole thing about you know, you'd have to invite me
in and He's like, Okay, you know, come on in,
you know, and then I'm going to spoil it. At
the end of the film, there's a very tense moment
where it seems like maybe the demon has taken over
and take it. He's he's gonna actually cause him to suicide,
(15:12):
which makes no sense because he told him he was
going to publish his book, and like, so his whole
thing was he wants to publish a book, which is them.
Speaker 6 (15:20):
You know. That was an interesting kind of contrast to
the Bible. I loved him referring to the Carpenter.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Yeah. Yeah, but it's like I don't understand, Like it's
so simplistic in a way. It's like, hey, you know,
you guys have your Bible. We're going to do our
dark evangelism, and we're going to have this book about
me the demon nefarious and how you know how to
(15:51):
take over the world? Right, that's and it's going to
be a book, because when you want to change the world,
you definitely want a book. That's how you do it.
People love to read. People are always sitting down and
reading their books.
Speaker 6 (16:04):
Yes, I guess around for thousands of years, he is.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Not caught up. He should be on TikTok is I
guess what I say.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And that's the thing, you know, being around for thousands
of years, the amount of time that we've been exposed
to TikTok is a very short so he's still just
a little behind.
Speaker 6 (16:23):
I think the whole film was was simplistic and intended
to be that way. I mean, it all centers on
the psycho, one room, one table, prisoner sitting there. I mean,
that is that's hard work for from a writing perspective
and an acting perspective.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
I mean, Sean Patrick Flannery was I mean knocking it
out of the park. But you know it's it's not
Jordan Belfie's fault, I guess, but he felt like he
was on a TV show, and Flannery felt like he
was going for the Oscar. I don't know he was really.
Speaker 6 (16:56):
I mean he could tell when he was the Demon
because he had that twet yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
Yeah, if and the Heath Ledger joker dry mouth yeah yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
I mean yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
He brought a lot of really clear acting to it.
I mean like he made character tics and like gave
you clear indications when he was hopping back and forth
between his two roles. I don't know. I was very
impressed by him, not so much by the script. And
again I'm super open minded to it doesn't bother me
if a film has, you know, religious undertones or whatever
(17:33):
or overtones if it's a good movie. And I think
what happened at the end, as you say, it sort
of collapsed into a hyper simplistic, predictable conclusion that kind
of spoiled where it seemed like it was going. I
don't know, That's just my take, but I definitely got
the vibe that this would be a thing that you
could have shown at a church, and maybe people did,
(17:54):
and that the ninety six percent approval ready for the
audience is probably Christian love bombing on the review.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Oh yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean,
but but you know, being a demonic possession fan that
I am, as we all are, yes, I did enjoy
a lot of aspects of it, you know, I enjoyed
the points where the demon was leading him down the
(18:23):
path of this is all fake, I'm you know. In
the Book of the Exorcist, uh Pazuzu did that to
Father Karras where they found evidence in her room that
she had been reading about cults and everything, so her
knowledge about this was was not diabolical. Uh, And so
(18:43):
he's thinking this whole thing, I can't do an exorcism,
this is not you know, this is not real. This
girl is is faking. And you know, the demon does
the same thing here. We're calling doubt, you know, into
his mind. And I really appreciated the fact that they
kind of kept that kind of personality or that thought
(19:03):
process of a demon what I And I liked it
too when he said, you know, invite me in, come on,
invite me in. And then he doesn't take him up
onto it and take him up on it, you know,
kind of a much too vulgar display of power. And
he just said, you know, patience, And of course I
knew what was going to happen the minute he said patience.
(19:24):
I knew what was coming. But the fact that this
diabolically intelligent being set things up so beautifully to fail
so stupidly disappointed me, because you know, if he was
really that diabolically intelligent, it would not have ended the
way it did, and we would have been in much
(19:45):
more despair, such as at the end of Fallen you
know where the demon keeps going. Now, it did show
us that the demon was still there and still going.
But then it makes you wonder what was the point
of the whole display.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Yeah, it really.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
Well, it could have gone lots of different ways. I
was wondering if the demon was going to be transferred
into the psychiatrist. I just wasn't really sure what was
going to happen. But what I did like was the.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And that's what the foreshadowing told us.
Speaker 6 (20:13):
Well, yeah, I think it did lead us astray a
number of times, and one of those times was when
the priest came in. I really thought he was going
to factor more into the rest of the movie, but
I thought it was interesting the way that threw a
self balance with him coming in and the demon was
very worked up and fearful of him, but then he
just assured him, Oh, well, these kinds of things don't exist.
Speaker 5 (20:35):
I don't do exorcisms, and he just dismissed all of that.
Speaker 6 (20:39):
So I don't know what his his religious background was,
but he certainly didn't.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
Yeah, I mean that whole thing to me just kind
of showed that the even the church has been infected,
you know, with this.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
You know, bor skepticism.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Yeah, you know, this whole just numbness of what's going
on in front of them. They've all been infected with it.
You know. It's like one of the great quotes bottom line.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
As you're done, it's over. That's it. And we did
it all right to your face, James, And now there's
evil everywhere and no one even cares. Yeah, I don't agree,
proving that we achieved our goal slowly with your movies,
your TV and your media, which sensitized you, redirected your
(21:33):
worldview to the point that you can't even recognize evil
when it's right in front of your face. More to
the point, James, you can't even feel it when you're
doing it. And that's for winners and losers, Bobo. That
gets decided at the time of death. These act numbers
are closely guarded secret. But there are more of you
ending up in my master's house than with the enemy,
(21:56):
a lot more.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
I mean, you know, evil didn't barge in. It just
asked nicely and waited quietly, you know. And that's much
more intelligent and terrifying, I think than just this monster
comes stomping in to have it be really brilliant and
play chess with you, And this demon played chess so
(22:20):
well throughout this movie untill the end.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
But why Okay, So this has been a problem with
the whole demonic possession Faustian bargain thing from the very beginning.
I never understood this exactly, the idea that you would
need to bargain for your soul with the devil in
order to get benefits. Okay, because at least the way
(22:47):
I was brought up as an evangelical, the idea is
because of original sin, if you haven't made a relationship
with Christ and accepted him as your personal ordered savior,
then you're already doomed to hell. So to what advantage
is it to the devil to give you when he bargained,
because he's already got your soul. So it really doesn't
I mean, that has never made any theological sense to
(23:10):
me that you might be able to bargain it away
unless you had given your you know, your heart to
God and now you're like pulling it back to sell it,
you know, like you know, maybe that would make sense.
I don't know, but I mean, in this case, the
demon specifically talks about how that he got this guy,
(23:30):
he got control of Brady, because it started out with
his parents failing to baptize him, and then from there
it was just a series of decisions after decisions until
he had won him over completely and taken control. And
it's like, well, you know, I mean as a metaphor, sure, yeah,
(23:50):
that works great, but from theologically it doesn't really work
great for me.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Right now, we do have to have a nothing another
spoiler here, and that is that this movie is being
reviewed by three atheists.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
Well I have to say at this point, I'm really
glad that I was raised in a mostly secular country.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
You have to think about things like this, and it's
just what it wasted.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
Well, you know, we talked about last week about how
with with the Bothy's, how you know, they would make
up stories about a Bothy to keep people away, and
these days they make up stories to draw people in.
And it really kind of makes us, you know, wonder
what numbs us more because I remember they used to say,
(24:46):
you don't don't watch horror films, you're just going to
get numb to it all. And you know, horror films
or or are going to you know, make it so
you don't see what's coming because you think it's all
fake and all that kind of stuff that in the eighties,
I was hit with that a lot. But I have
to wonder what numbs us more horror movies or headlines,
(25:08):
because it seems like we're in an age now where
we're just constantly being numbed. And that's kind of what
Nefarious was telling us. You know, you're being bombarded all
the time with all this stuff that makes everything you
do okay. You know when he says, when when the
psychiatrist says to him about the whole you know, abortion
(25:31):
part of it, trigger.
Speaker 5 (25:32):
Warning, there a few of those content warnings.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
Yeah, yeah, uh, he says, it's complicated. And that's like
the best, you know, excuse for anything that you don't
want to face is to just say it's complicated. And
you know, of course Nefarius loved that answer, just laughed hysterically,
(25:58):
and you know, and I love how he said, what
was it, uh, hate crimes or hate speech.
Speaker 6 (26:04):
Speech that we invented that ourselves, that wasn't even of Satan.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, it's like we love you for that, you know.
So yeah, there was a lot of interesting things. And
it's funny because I think a lot of Christians believe
that they've got the market cornered when it comes to morality.
And the thing is is that that the morality over
that higher ground is often pretty immoral, you know, they
(26:33):
you know, looking into which a future topic will be
haunted cheets, and itzza looking at how the religious leaders
there mirrored Christianity in terms of keeping people uneducated, keeping
people you know, in their place through promises or fear,
(26:55):
so they right, so they can usurp all the power.
And that's where the the you know, the the morality
doesn't lie, you know, is is there is the fact
that the these these religious leaders throughout history have always
(27:16):
kept truths from the people so they could hold the power.
And so I think it's interesting that you've got this
this Christian group basically making this movie, putting it out
there as another big warning that don't get smart, don't
go get an education now because.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
Let's you're exactly right, the psychiatrist is an atheist, and
that seems to put him in special jeopardy, right, yes,
because he's he's ill equipped to fight a demon, although
I think he actually holds his own pretty well. But
what's really confusing to me is at the end when
he's in that Glenn Beck cameo moment, which I assume
(27:57):
means he died and went to Hell, because otherwise, why
does he hang out with glenb Bag exactly.
Speaker 6 (28:00):
A hah.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
But Glen Glenn's like, you know, well, how did you
get through all this? And he's like, well, I'm still
trying to work all that out, you know, And he's like, well,
you know, if you keep at it, you'll get there.
You know. What he basically means is, you know, or
he seems to be implying, you will come to understand
that God is real and that Christ loves you, and
that this is how you've escaped, Except that that doesn't
(28:24):
make any sense because when we last saw him prior
to that jump cut, he was struggling with the police
and was trying to off himself. And the next thing
we know, he's successfully published this book but does not
appear to have reconciled himself with God in any way.
Speaker 5 (28:44):
So, oh no, he was wearing a sweater.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
Yeah, well, okay, well here is that That's a good point.
I didn't think about that. Is that coding for he's
accepted Christ.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
I think one of the big problems with this review
was we only had a chance to watch it once,
you could watch it more than once, you would notice
things like the sweater.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
That's a good point. It seemed like he was still
on a path towards trying to figure things out.
Speaker 6 (29:11):
And maybe that's why he encountered the demon again on
the way out. Yeah, maybe unfinished business.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Now, I guess we should point out that the author
of this the novel is Steve and I think he's
pronounced d de a ce and he is a conservative
talk show host on Glenn Beck's Blaze Network. So the
novels published. I don't actually know who published the novel,
but he's obviously using the Glymbec Blaze production company stuff
(29:44):
for the for the making of this film, so it seems.
And again from a business perspective, I cannot argue against
consolidating and collaboration and all that stuff that's good. I
just I don't like these films where they're heavy on
the proselytizing and heavy handed. And I guess I don't
(30:06):
mind a film outing a positive message, it's just I
don't want it to be so preaty.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
You know.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
Well, if I may, I went and looked up the
book just then, and so the publisher's Post Hill Press,
so I haven't heard of them before, but their ranking
is that it is. It's listed under political fiction, and
that's literature and fiction and American literature, So I.
Speaker 5 (30:31):
Think that that's a little bit of a giveaway.
Speaker 6 (30:34):
I mean, wow, the ratings are really high on this here,
twenty two hundred reviews and almost five stars, So yeah,
I think there's some nefariousness going on behind it.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Well, you know, I have to say that there was
a lot of good stuff in this in this film
in terms of entertainment and being thought provoking and things
like that. But the bottom line is, is is it
a supernatural thriller a thriller? Or is it a theological
(31:09):
pamphlet disguised as a horror film? And I think it's
kind of both.
Speaker 6 (31:14):
Sorry, I'm looking at the reviews and the editorial reviews
of by Ted Cruz Ben Shapiro, So yeah, I think
that tells us which way they swink. But oh, Kirk Cameron,
Oh yeah, I told her what this movie was about.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
She's like, oh, is Kirk Cameron in it?
Speaker 6 (31:33):
And I'm like, no, right, wait, he's the biggest one
great comfort. Yay, what do you think this movie hasn't
it then for our listeners, for skeptics.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
It's not as heavy handed as God's not dead, So
there's that, But.
Speaker 3 (31:55):
I still found it to be, like, is that pretty entertaining?
And I enjoyed a lot of the aspects of you know,
other horror films that I enjoyed being you know, sort
of a called upon in a sense, and so it
was it was a different take on a demon. It
(32:15):
was a kind of a good warning to don't get
numb to the injustices being held right in front of
you in the headlines on the social media every single day.
Speaker 6 (32:27):
They're trying to say too. I mean, that's the irony.
I think that that's how they see us.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yes, yes, it's there. They're you know, in a sense,
looking in a very you know, damaged, dirty mirror. But
it is a mirror, so you know, they're not quite
we're not seeing each other quite the way we should be.
But well, I met there's some similarities.
Speaker 4 (32:48):
I never like it when a movie talks about atheists
though they're they're immoral or amoral, and I'm like, no,
I mean also with any Christian based, you know film,
there's a lot of them have that sort of subtext
that oh, by the way, if you're not one of us,
(33:10):
you're evil. And yeah, by the way, that means, oh,
I don't know, four fifths of the world is evil,
you know. I mean like there's a lot of people
out there who are just simply never exposed to Christianity
and that's never going to be a religion for them,
and so by Christian's theology, they're doomed to hell. So
I mean, it's there's religions complicated. This is why we
(33:32):
usually don't talk about it very much on here, because
I don't believe in it, and I think it's important,
but I don't. I think it's culturally important, and I
understand the comfort people get from it, but it doesn't
work for me. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
So well, you know, if we step back and go, okay,
well I just watched Lord of the Rings. Do I
believe in Hobbits?
Speaker 2 (34:00):
No?
Speaker 3 (34:00):
Did I enjoy Lord?
Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (34:03):
I wouldn't let me read the line the witch in
the wardrobe because I had wits in it.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
My mom wouldn't because it had Turkish delight in it.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
I'm just telling you, what what does that mean to you? Diabetes?
What exactly? No?
Speaker 7 (34:26):
I mean, well, we have you right where we want
you then, you know, it's I just think that you know,
I love demonic possession movies, and I think the fact.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
That this is, like I said, a bit of a
a pamphlet for you know, theology. Uh, it is not
that big of a deal to me because I saw
it for what it was in that sense, but the
story itself with the you know, I like, I like demons,
and I like people fighting against them, and I think
it's fun and I I always like dialog.
Speaker 4 (35:01):
There's lots of good dialogue, great dialogue.
Speaker 3 (35:03):
So there's no reason you can't enjoy this movie and
and feel like you have to run out and get baptized.
It's just just sorry.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Do you remember so before Snopes kind of blew up
in weird ways, they used to have a whole section
called Blurges, which would be like someone takes a story
and then they would like not it up to another
level of like over heavy handed, sympathetic or treakily kind
(35:40):
of content. So it's like a thing could be okay
and interesting, but to make to make it go that
extra mile, they would like pump like fifteen to twenty
pounds of extra heartstrings into a five pound sack, right,
it felt like that at the end, like it was
really rare. Mpened it up at the end, and I
(36:01):
think if it had stuck with more ambiguity and maybe
not quite gone so heavy handed in the end, I
think that would have been really cool. I think there
was a lot of good to work with here, and
Briggan hell Sean Patrick Flenny did a great job with
the acting so and.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
Things I do well he did.
Speaker 6 (36:19):
And I just want to raise just how many topics
are in this film. We're very disturbing a lot of
the topics that they raised, but I think most of
all just the death penalty and for me that the
moral and ethical concerns.
Speaker 5 (36:33):
About that, and.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
It seemed to be a good example of wrongful conviction
as well, and just coming from a country where this
is outlawed, it was just very confronting and horrifying to
hear about the nature of this form of execution and just.
Speaker 5 (36:54):
Be exposed to that. I could love that during those scenes.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
It was very disturbing, the depiction of the the Uh,
the execution was harsh. It was definitely harsh, and uh,
you know, it's not the only movie that that's done it. Again.
We can talk about Fallen for that as well. But yeah,
(37:20):
especially when you're I think, yeah, yeah, it really was.
I mean the fact is that a human life was
being taken is one thing. Another thing is feeling like
that human life. The human in there was innocent, he.
Speaker 6 (37:36):
Was going to be the one left to suffer, and
the demon just enjoyed watching and not being well, he
actually enjoyed those experiences.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, yeah, that was that was rough. That was rough, definitely.
Speaker 6 (37:49):
But yeah, I don't know what you stand on things
like maybe we didn't want to go down that philosophical.
Speaker 5 (37:53):
Group, but yeah, I mean the violation of the right
to life.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
Well, the film dealt with abortion and the death penalty
and euthanasia. It may really crammed a whole lot of uh,
you know, socially challenging issues in a in a in
a real small package, and you know, it took the well,
(38:20):
this is a sin, so therefore it's wrong kind of ground,
which I guess the point of the atheist character would be. No,
you know, in your world it's a moral question, and
other people's it's an ethical question. In other ways it's
it's you know, it doesn't the mom have you know,
there's all these questions, right.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
It's complicated.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
It's complicated. It is complicated. So you know, in the
simplistic world of of this moral universe, it isn't complicated.
It's there's very clear delineation between what's a sin and
what's not a sin, except that that's not really true either.
I mean, the truth is it sins them get quite complicated,
(39:01):
and the way people work around them gets quite complicated.
The way people self justify gets quite complicated. It's almost
like you need some deity to come around and sort
it out, you know, It's almost it is almost like that.
Speaker 5 (39:12):
Yeah, so I.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
Applaud them for trying. I don't know the I again,
it was a little too heavy handed and proselytizing or
heavy handed is the thing I keep coming back to.
It was just a little over the top. But I
really like something.
Speaker 5 (39:32):
Lost towards the end. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:34):
Well, you know, one of the things that I want
to kind of relate those to and my personal enjoyment
of the film is, you know, Karen had written a
book years ago called God Bless America, and one of
them that yes, yes, this is a thinly veiled pamphlet
for Karen's books. Now, the thing is with this we
(39:58):
went and we sat in on various different religious gatherings,
you know, from scientology to Amish to you know, various
things along the way and right right, But the thing
about it was we knew what to expect when we
went in, so we weren't surprised by anything that happened.
(40:22):
And damn if we didn't have a good time. And
I think that that's how this film needs to be
looked at. You know what it is, you know what's
going on, but you know what it is, a fun, dirty,
bumpy ride. Go for it. It's fiction. Yeah, so, and
and you know, as long as you don't sort of
(40:44):
fall into their trappings anymore than they claim we've fallen
into trappings, just enjoy the film.
Speaker 5 (40:53):
And anyway, it was not any kind of theological alway.
Speaker 6 (41:00):
I really just hoped it was going to be more
along the lines of The Exorcist.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
The Exorcist converted some people. This film is not going
to convert anybody.
Speaker 5 (41:11):
Yeah, I don't see how it could, but you never know.
In this country.
Speaker 4 (41:15):
Well, if you saw it in a church where it
was followed up by some.
Speaker 5 (41:20):
Think they would really show something like this.
Speaker 4 (41:24):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
But the thing is is, if you're already in the church.
You're not going to get by this film.
Speaker 5 (41:30):
Yeah, I guess it's just going to reinforce your belief exactly.
Speaker 4 (41:34):
There's a section in the bookstore that's called Christian fiction
and this always makes my wife laugh, but anyway, that
it's full of litology, you know, and there's different sort
of epithets for it. But things like left Behind, you know,
these kind of stories set in an apocalyptic setting. Uh,
(41:59):
you know there basically leaning and heavy on you know, congratulations,
you've made it to Revelations. You know, Well, you're.
Speaker 5 (42:05):
Making me think.
Speaker 6 (42:06):
You're making me think of Bob Larsen, and he's kind
of Christian porn his books.
Speaker 5 (42:11):
Yeah, what were those coming up for air or something?
Who is books?
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Then you head one about a radio DJ on the
air it was.
Speaker 8 (42:20):
A satanic panic, Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, I mean
he has all of his books and it's difficult to
tell the difference between his fiction and his supposed reality.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
Yeah, his non fiction books, it's all the same.
Speaker 4 (42:37):
Like I Martin, I mean, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:40):
Larson's Book of Spiritual Warfare. But yeah, it does remind.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Me of that, Yes, that that book was called Dead Air, Dead.
Speaker 5 (42:50):
Air, Yeah, coming up wanted to do after this movie.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
Yeah that's funny, but yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:59):
It's just just through interesting different perspectives. Is to me,
this would just be wholly inappropriate to really show in
any kind of group environment, unless you're just hanging out
with inappropriate.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
You know, you took the words out of my mouth.
I was going to ask that same question.
Speaker 5 (43:15):
Well again, I think.
Speaker 6 (43:17):
Really glad I grew up in mostly secular environments and yeah,
that's just.
Speaker 4 (43:24):
These are all big issues. I mean, the the thing
about Christianity or any religion I guess that has these
prescriptions for behavior is if they're right, Like, you know,
the implications are quite serious, right, so you know I
don't believe them because there's so many religions and uh,
you know I I my parents got upset with me
(43:48):
because you know, I came out as an atheist and
my dad was like, well, maybe you just need to
study the Bible more. And I'm like, no, no, no, I
think you misunderstand. I didn't become an atheist by studying
the Bible rarely. I became an atheist because I read
a lot about the Bible and read the Bible. It's like,
you know, I'm overread, not underread. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
But there is a reason that we have Pascal's wager,
and that's I mean, that's where we stand with this
whole thing. Is it's I'm not sure better safe than sorry,
which is a terrible version.
Speaker 6 (44:26):
Yeah, well, yeah, I think a lot of people are
prone to that. But yeah, certainly I'm starting to have
discussions with our.
Speaker 5 (44:35):
Son about that. Right now.
Speaker 6 (44:36):
I'm talking about all of the various religions in the world,
the world religions and indigenous ones, and they all think
that they're right. How can they all possibly be right
with all the conflicting plans and that they all have
that righteousness and well, and it.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
Can't seem to be left alone at personal choice. It's
these people want to get political power and then and
make their moral choices into the legal choices for everyone else.
And that's that's hardly fair. So if if it was
just about personal, you know, your own beliefs, I don't
think I would care what people believe so much. But
it's when they have their beliefs and now they want
(45:15):
to inflict them on me, that's why I really get
bothered by it.
Speaker 5 (45:18):
So separated.
Speaker 4 (45:20):
Yeah, yeah, allegedly, Yeah, it's Anyway, I don't like politics,
and I don't really like discussion religion because it's so divisive,
and I think we've done a good job of talking
around some of that stuff. And again I don't I'm
not an evangelical atheist. I just that's where I've landed
is in the non believer world. But I still enjoy
(45:41):
going to religious meetings, and I love camaraderie and the
friendship of many Christian communities, and I appreciate.
Speaker 5 (45:48):
A lot of the things too.
Speaker 4 (45:49):
So I just I don't hate Christianity. I just I'm
just I. Yeah, it's not I. I have come down
real hard is I don't believe in this and I'm
not inclined to change.
Speaker 6 (46:02):
And both of you have unique perspectives. Yeah, not much
has changed for me, but for you guys, certainly.
Speaker 3 (46:10):
We've come from some very interesting places in our past
to get to it.
Speaker 4 (46:16):
Stealthy evangelicism through cinema is one of those recurring things,
and I guess this sort of fits into that, Melu.
But as these things go, I enjoyed this one a
lot more than anything I've seen with Kurt Cameron or
Kevin Sorbo or any of these other things. So it's
(46:38):
certainly not the worst. How about that? Well, anyway, I
think that concludes Nefarious You've been forewarned, is forearmed.
Speaker 5 (46:48):
And various film in many ways.
Speaker 4 (46:51):
Yeah, all right, anyway, thanks for listening. We'll see you
again next week.
Speaker 5 (46:55):
Thank you. Mortle.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
You've been listening to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.
Speaker 3 (47:03):
I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner.
Speaker 4 (47:07):
So you just heard Matt Baxter, Karen and myself discussing
the twenty twenty three film Nefarious. A link to the
film and some articles about it will be in the
show notes. Was it a horror movie? It was so close,
But like Matt, I think the ending underminds both its
premise and its potential. We hope you enjoyed this episode
(47:27):
of Monster Talk. Our goal here is to bring you
the best in monster related content with a focus on
scientific skepticism and critical thinking. If you enjoy our show
and want to support our mission, start out by visiting
monster talk dot org forward slash support. That's monster talk
dot org forward slash Support. There you'll find links to
(47:48):
our Patreon page, as well as a donate button if
you'd like to just make a one time contribution. A
great way to support the show is to buy books
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(48:11):
can support and raise the profile of the show by
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your podcasts. Positive reviews help keep us visible in iTunes,
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remember to share episodes you really like with your friends
and family. You can help make Monster Talk the nightlight
(48:31):
that keeps monsters away from someone you love. Monster Talks
theme music is by Pete Stealing Monkeys.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
Mh, this has been a Monster House presentation.
Speaker 6 (49:32):
You said that you would prove to me your redeemon,
but all you've done is waste my time, my turn.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
I want to talk to Edward Wayne Brady.
Speaker 5 (49:42):
Is Wayne Brady going to have the choke a bit
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