Montana’s New Mule Deer Management Plan - Can We Solve Montana’s Mule Deer Issues? - Montana Outdoor Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Manny (00:09):
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Dale (01:11):
Thank you very much, Manny.
Welcome.
Welcome into the Montana OutdoorPodcast Studios.
So glad you could join us todayto explore more of Montana's
great outdoors.
I wanna give a special welcometo our men and women of the
United States Armed Forces.
Love to see you.
Join us here and hope we bringyou a little bit of home while

(01:31):
you defend us all around theworld.
Thank you all for your wonderfulservice and to all of our
veterans as well.
to everyone listening here.
I have a favorite to ask youwhen you get a chance.
Please share this podcast toyour social media and with your
family and friends.
It helps us out a lot.
Today we're gonna cover a topicthat has quite a few hunters in

(01:53):
Montana, a bit concerned.
I appreciate all the emails frommany of you asking that I spend
some time on this, so let's jumpright into it.
With a guy who has been on thepodcast in the past, so some of
you will no doubt recognize hisname.
I'm talking about GameManagement Bureau, chief for
Montana, fish Wildlife andParks, Brian Wakeling.

(02:15):
Thanks again for doing this,Brian.
Uh, what I wanted to do today istalk about a topic that, uh,
well, a great deal of ourlisteners are very concerned
about and are interested to, tolearn what you have to say about
it.
Um, I'm talking about the healthof our mule deer populations in

(02:35):
Montana.
Before we get into that topic,since we've got a, uh, our
podcast has grown dramatically,uh, which is great, and thanks
to all of our listeners forthat, uh, but there's a
possibility that, uh, quite afew of our listeners may not
have met you yet.
Uh, you've been on the podcastbefore.
So let's start with you.

(02:55):
Just, uh, talk a bit about, uh,yourself, uh, what you do for
the FWP, and, and then we'll gofrom there.

Brian Wakeling (03:02):
Yeah, thanks Dale.
Um, so my name's Brian Wakeling.
Uh, I serve as the GameManagement Bureau chief.
I've been in this role withFish, wildlife and Parks now for
a little over five years.
Um, prior to that I also hadserved as the Game chief for the
Nevada Department of Wildlife.
Did it for about five and a halfyears there.

(03:23):
And prior to that I was the gamechief in Arizona Gaming.
Um, I'm kind of trying to stayone jump ahead of the law, I
guess you might say, but, uh,um, have had a little bit of
diverse experience across the,uh, the west.
Um, and, uh, really glad to havethe, the chance here and, and,

(03:44):
uh, opportunity to speak with,uh, speak with you today.

Dale (03:48):
Well, great, Brian.
I appreciate that.
Um, so let's, uh.
First talk about the currentstate of Montana's mule deer
populations.
Now, I've heard all kinds ofpredictions in that, you know,
everybody's got an opinion.
Uh, and I mean, it's been fromthe extremes of boy, our mule
deer populations are on theverge of collapse all the way

(04:11):
to, uh, this is all a bunch of,uh.
To do of nothing.
Uh, our, our herds and, andpopulation numbers are just
fine.
They always fluctuate.
Now obviously you at the FWP,you guys have done a, a lot of
research and keep tabs on this alot.
So I would assume you, youprobably have a, a, a more of a

(04:34):
unique perspective.
Uh, uh, so I, I, I assume I'mright about that.
Uh, give us your thoughts on thecurrent state of the mule deer
populations in Montana.

That's a really good question, Dale, and.
You know, there's that oldstory.
They talk about, uh, the variousblind men that are trying to
describe what an elephant lookslike based

Dale (05:00):
Yeah.

you know, what they feel.
And, you know, so much of it hasto do with what part of the
elephant you're actually workingwith.
And to some degree that's truewith Montana's mule deer or mule
deer throughout the west rightnow.
Back in 1997, the WesternAssociation of Fish and Wildlife

(05:22):
Agencies put together what theycalled the Mule Deer Working
Group.
And the reason they formed thatgroup was because mule deer were
largely in decline throughoutthe west.
And even today, you know, we'rehere we are 28 years later, and,

(05:42):
There's a lot of informationthat that group's put together.
There's a lot of research thathave been conducted by a lot of
the different states throughoutthe west.
Um, and we know an awful lotmore about the particulars about
what drives mule deerpopulations.
Um, but depending upon whereyou're at, mule deer populations

(06:04):
are not looking good.
Mule deer populations may not beas bad when you look at Montana.
Depending upon what regionyou're at, um, region one has
never been a place where we'vehad a lot of mule deer, but if
you look over the course of thelast 10 years, it's probably not
off as much as what it might bein say, region six and seven.

(06:26):
Um, we've seen some, some prettysubstantial declines there.
Um, and so.
Have we seen declines occurbefore?
Yeah, absolutely.
We have.
Um, does that make our concernfor this decline at this point
in time?
Any less?
No.
I mean, anytime we seepopulations fluctuate and that's

(06:47):
what wildlife populations do,um, you know, they, they
fluctuate over time and asmanagers, our goal is try to
model, modulate that as much aspossible so that we can try to.
Keep the lows to be not quite aslow as we as they have been, and
keep the highs from getting notquite as the high.
A lot of people always thinkback to the last time things

(07:09):
were really high and think, wow,that those were the glory days.
That's where we want to be.
But oftentimes those real, realhighs aren't any better for the
deer population in the long runthan what the real lows are.

Dale (07:23):
Well, And, and I, I get that, but on the other hand, I
hear, you know, all the timeabout CWD.
Um, I do some work also withGame and Fish, uh, in Wyoming.
Uh, and so I get a lot of theirpress releases too, and they've
got concerns about it.
What, what do you think, youknow, is your and, and your

(07:46):
team's main concerns about themule deer population right now
in Montana?

Well, chronic wasting disease is certainly a
concern for us.
Um, been really fortunate herein Montana that haven't had the
same challenges that Coloradoand Wyoming has seen to date.
Um.
There was a recent paper thatwas published, uh, this year,
uh, Journal looking at, uh, whatactually works for managing

(08:19):
chronic wasting disease.
And, and there is no silverbullet, there's no

Dale (08:25):
Yeah.

thing that we found at this point in time that
can say, you know, if we just dothis, it goes away.
Um, it doesn't go away.
What we have to do is try tomanage the prevalence of it.
so, uh, places like Colorado,places like Wyoming, we can
benefit from the knowledge thatthey've gained because they've
been dealing with this.

Dale (08:47):
Mm-hmm.

Colorado first saw it in the late sixties and,
um, and they've been, theydidn't even know what it was at
the time.
And so it's, the knowledge hasbeen kind of developing over
time the things that work formanaging prevalence are not
necessarily the things.
That make most hunters feel warmand fuzzy.

(09:09):
It's not the answers that theywant to hear.

Dale (09:12):
Right.

what Wyoming has recently learned off of that
research that they've publishedis that if you harvest bucks
lightly.
It's a place where CWD currentlyexists.
What you see is prevalenceincreased dramatically, um, to
the point that if you areharvesting at, at relatively low

(09:34):
levels, 20% of the total bucks,um, they've seen prevalence get
as high as 60%, uh, in otherareas where they've been
harvesting very, very, uh,aggressively.
For 20 years, uh, trying tokeep, uh, trying to harvest 40%
of the bucks every year.
they've been able to keep.

(09:55):
Prevalence, uh, down below 5%,five to 10%.
And so, our objective with CWDis to keep it at that low level.
Having said all that, and withall those concerns, um, overall,
that is not what's drivingpopulations in Montana today.

(10:15):
You know, we're seeing, um, alot of other factors that play a
role.
Um, habitat, conditions, climateand weather.
Ation.
Um, and those are, those are allof the factors that we're
considering as we're workingwith this moving forward.

Dale (10:34):
Well, and it, it kind of seems to me that.
Uh, with the CWD thing, which bythe way, that's a very
interesting statistic forColorado, that it's been around
that long.
Um, so I mean, it's been around,I mean, has there been any kind
of new research come out aboutit as far as ways to, to control

(10:58):
the spread of that?
Or is it just one of thosethings that's just never been
able to really totally figureout yet?

I would say at this point in time, we haven't
figured it out.

Dale (11:09):
Yeah.

research, a lot of active research being
conducted, um, on a lot ofdifferent fronts.
Um, you know, there's someinformation that, uh, um.
That suggests that, uh, certaingenetic strains, uh, may
actually be more resistant toCWD than others.

(11:32):
the, what we've learned aboutthat so far is that those tend
to be recessive genes.
other words, it's not somethingthat is, that that manifests
itself on a regular basis Noneof those recessive genes that
have, indicated there might besome resistance.

(11:53):
That doesn't mean they're,they're.
They don't contract it, theystill contract it, still die
from it.
It is a hundred percent fatal.
Um, all that means is they maysurvive another eight to 10
months with it, which means theyspread it longer.

Dale (12:11):
Yeah.

other thing with those recessive genes is often
they're recessive becausethey're also associated with
some other fitnesscharacteristic.
That means they are less tosurvive in the wild.

Dale (12:24):
Oh, okay.

it's not just, Hey, if we could get everybody
to have this, they'd be moreresistant.
They might have some othernegative aspects associated with
it as well that might reducetheir fitness.

Dale (12:38):
Well, and I.
I imagine that it's, it's kindof a, a, a tough thing to wrap
your arms around, especiallywith a state like Montana,
that's so huge and very diverseenvironments.
Uh, that, you know, I, I wouldassume, and correct me if I'm
wrong, that it, it's hard to, toreally diagnose what's going on

(13:00):
because of all the differenteffects that you find in
different terrain and, and allthat drought, all that kind of
stuff.

Yeah.
Uh, I mean, when you're lookingat population trends, um, that's
absolutely the case.
I mean, uh, certain, uh,regions, um, we've got portions
of region three portions ofregion six portions of region
one that have, um, higherprevalence of chronic wasting
disease.
then when you look at thelandscape as well, the habitat,

(13:31):
um, you know.
There's obviously bigdifferences between the east and
the west,

Dale (13:36):
Sure.

you look at parts of our northwest, um,
where.
You know, there historicallythere used to be additional, uh,
mule deer present on thatlandscape.
We've, we've also, changed thefrequency with which we, we
treat, uh, our timber in thatcountry.
The logging has changed and somule deer are.

(14:00):
disturbance oriented animals.
If there's, uh, if we're able toharvest trees, if we're able to
have prescribed fire, if we'reable to, um, have those land
management changes on the, onthe landscape kind of disturb
the habitat a little bit.
A lot of times our mule deerrespond really well, so we see

(14:23):
differences, um, the regionsbased upon.
Um, access is another hugeissue.
Um, our ability to go in and,uh, and work with, uh, specific
management tools that we haveavailable to us.
Um, if we don't have access, ifwe can't.

(14:44):
Exercise hunting in certainareas.
If we, you know, if the Forestservice is limited by their
ability to have a silviculturaltreatment, um, logging, um, you
know, uh, you know, and privatelandowners provide so much
habitat and there's, there'ssuch a resource for.
For our, our wildlife.

(15:04):
Um, but they have concerns and,and things that they have to
consider when they're doingthings as well.
And so

Dale (15:11):
Yeah,

of that makes a, as you mentioned, makes a very
complex environment to work in.

Dale (15:17):
well.
Let's talk a bit about the, whatthe future holds for our mule
deer populations right now.
Um, you guys at the FWP aredeveloping a new mule deer
management plan, uh, and, uh,we're gonna talk about that.
But first, uh, could you tell usin a nutshell what a management

(15:39):
plan is and what its mainpurpose is?
What are the typical elementsthat it entails?

Sure.
and that, that's a greatquestion.
Um, uh, there's a lot of effortthat goes into developing those
plans.
Um, but those plans are notregulatory in nature.
So, um, it does is provides ouragency with guidance on how we
should address.

(16:09):
Uh, particular situations, ifyou will.
Um, currently we're operatingunder a, uh, an adaptive harvest
management plan.
Uh, that plan was firstdeveloped in the early two
thousands.
Uh, it was revised in 2021 andupdated, uh, at that time.
You know it, and it focusesmostly on.

(16:31):
Which is what the agency has themost control over.
Um, but one of the things thatwe know is that Hunter Harvest
is among the, the smallestfactors that influence a.
Mule deer population trend

Dale (16:49):
Huh.

trajectory, uh, over time.
And I mean, obviously if we'vegot, uh, female har, you know,
antlerless harvest, um, thatcertainly has a potential.
It's what, it's a lever thatwe've got control over.
We can decrease that or decreasethat.
And that can certainly, uh,influence population trajectory.

(17:09):
Um, but.
The male harvest, um, has verylittle influence on population
trajectory, and so that's alever that we currently and
frequently use a lot.
But habitat, condition, um, youknow, weather and climate, uh,
disease, you know, a lot ofthose factors tend to have a far

(17:33):
more overarching influence onthose deer populations than what
Hunter Harvest does.

Dale (17:39):
Okay, So, is is changing or updating the current plan,
something that that FWP alwaysdoes, you know, on a regular
basis or.
Is the decision to develop thisnew mule deer management plan?
Is it mainly driven because theold one's not working or

So,

Dale (18:01):
reason for it?

yeah.
Yeah.
And again, a great question.
So when, whenever we develop aplan, um, our goal is to make a
plan that's going to be durableand long lasting.
developing a new plan is not acavalier undertaking.
Um, we started this, um.
A little over a year ago withthe Citizens Advisory Committee

(18:25):
that we put together, um, wehad, uh, about, uh, three
meetings over the course of sixdays with, uh, um, 12 people
from across the state trying tohelp us identify what our
guiding principles would be forthis.
Um, now we've, we've taken theirinput along with the input that

(18:45):
we received from, uh, preferencesurveys.
Other experiences we've had withdifferent surveys and what the
public has told us in seasonsettings trying to take that
input and we'll be, um.
We're in the process, uh,currently wrapping up, uh, some

(19:06):
public meetings to see, youknow, hey, we've got these
ideas, um, are we on the righttrack?
Um, is, uh, you know, how, howare we doing with that?
Uh, can you tell us.
Did we miss something?
Is there something moreimportant that we should be
considering?
Then we're gonna go forward.
We're gonna, as we draft thisplan, the goal is to have

(19:29):
something finished, um, by aboutthe end of 2025, early part of
2026 that we can then share witheverybody, get a review on that.
Once we get those review back,then we'll have to go through.
The Montana Environmental PolicyAct review, where it goes
through and looks at the impactsof all of this stuff, especially

(19:49):
the effect on the, the humanenvironment, which will take
another year.
And so our hope is to get thiswrapped up sometime by about the
end of 2026, early 2027.

Dale (20:02):
Okay.

as I said, it's, it's not a cavalier undertaking.
It's, it's a, it's a prettyin-depth effort, but the reason
we wanna.
Revise this one now is notbecause our adaptive harvest
management plan doesn't workwith harvest, but as we pointed
out.
There are other things thatinfluence deer and deer

(20:25):
management than just harvest.
so what we currently don't havean awful lot within the adaptive
harvest management plan isinformation that would guide,
um, how we would provide inputon habitat management.

Dale (20:41):
Okay.

the department does not, um, manage large.
Landscapes.
Um, our biologists are expertson what good mule deer habitat
looks like, and so how should webest engage, uh, with land
management agencies, otherlandowners, timber companies,

(21:04):
uh, to provide that input.
Um,

Dale (21:07):
Okay.

you know, the same thing with disease, the,
the herd health.
Um, we do have quite a bit ofjurisdiction there.
Um, however, You know, wherethere are places where chronic
wasting disease is currently anissue and there's places where
it's not.
Um, do we want the management tobe the same in, in all those

(21:28):
places?
You know, this is, this isinformation that's developing
since, uh, the early twothousands and, and.
More so, uh, than in 2021 whenwe updated the plan.
We've got more information nowtoo.
Um, so harvest habitat health,those are kind of the, the three
biggies.
But we're also looking foranything else that we, um, I.

(21:52):
We haven't considered, we mayhave overlooked.
Um, and so what we want is abroader document that's going to
give us, um, more information,more guidance to the agency, uh,
so that we can use that to moveforward once we get finished
with it.
Like I say, it's not aregulatory document.

(22:13):
The commission can choose toadopt.
Our recommendations or amendthem as they as it, it, doesn't
tie their hands.
They can still do whatever theychoose to do.
However, this gives the agencyguidance and tells the public
how the agency is going toapproach these challenges going
forward.

Dale (22:34):
Okay, well we're gonna take a quick break here.
Uh, I want to.
Chat a bit about one of ourgreat sponsors, a Rocky Mountain
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But when we come back, um, Iwanna talk about what you

(22:58):
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Can be part of in this plan.
Um, and there's some specificthings I wanna address with,
with you, Brian, but also withour listeners about public
input.
Because I hear this on my end.
A lot of, uh, people get some ofthese ideas of what the

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It's time to come fishing.
Back here on the Montana OutdoorPodcast, uh, I've been talking
with Brian Wakeling.
He is the Game Management Bureauchief for the Montana Fish

(26:14):
Wildlife and Parks.
And we're talking about this,uh, developing this Mule Deer
management plan.
And when it was announced thatyou guys are working on this,
um, one of the things that.
That you had announced, and Iknow our listeners have heard me
talk about it.
Uh, as far as, okay, now's yourtime.

(26:34):
Everybody get your, your input.
They, they're having a series ofworkshops that have been going
on, but I, I wanna call up on mysoapbox for just a minute.
Um.
You know, all of you listeners,I love you and you're fantastic
and you really drive thispodcast.
Reason I'm doing this is becauseall of you are emailing saying,

(26:56):
Hey, why don't you talk aboutthis?
I wanna know what's going on.
But some of you get on the, thisus and them attitude, and I, I
gotta tell you, that's just thewrong approach, gang, because.
Everything that I've ever done,and I've talked with FWP, with

(27:20):
Game and Fish in Wyoming, withgame wardens every, we're all on
the same team here.
Everybody's trying to do thesame thing.
So the more inputs you guys giveand you're out there seeing
what's going on, a lot of youare, are landowners.
You're seeing, you know what,what this big game situation's

(27:41):
like if you don't.
Give the input then, you know,Brian's team in some cases is
kind of flying blind, you know,I mean, they, they, they, they
do a lot of research, but you'resome great eyes and ears, so you
gotta get out there and getinvolved.
So, I'll get off my soapbox now,but boy, I hear that a lot and

(28:03):
it, it, it really, um.
I guess it just kind of makes mesad that, that we're, we're not
thinking the way we should be.
We should be thinking that we'reall in this together because we
are.
Um, so anyway, Brian, um, theseworkshops that you, you've had
going, um, tell me a bit abouthow, how, how have the workshops

(28:27):
gone?
Um, what's your feeling So faras far as this public input?
Are you getting a lot of inputfrom people?

So far our, our engagement has been pretty good.
So, you know, we, we did, whenwe did the Citizens Advisory
Committee.
were public meetings.
we, we had those, uh, that weshared, uh, virtually.
And, uh, in the course of that,I think we collected somewhere
in the neighborhood of 170public comments, uh, just

(28:58):
through, through that alone.
Um, and so.
Currently, um, you know, whilewe're sitting here talking,
we're kind of at the, the tailend of our first week of
meetings and, um, we're lookingat, uh, we've probably had about
another, oh, I wanna sayprobably pushing 70 or 80 people

(29:22):
participate, uh, in the, thefirst couple of few meetings
that we've had.
Um, everybody's been respectful.
I mean, to the point you were

Dale (29:33):
Good.

you know, you have the opportunity to engage.
Uh, you, one of the things Ilike to encourage people to do,
uh, when they have theopportunity to speak to the
commission, uh, a lot of people,I don't, I'm not sure what they
think.
Commissioners get out of thejobs that they have, but they're
not.
They're not salaried positions.

(29:54):
Um, they're

Dale (29:55):
Right.

they're volunteering, uh, that's usually
on top of jobs that they'vealready got.
Uh, they're having to travelaround the state and although we
compensate'em for the travel,um, they, they still have to
take time away from theirregular jobs.
And a lot of people get really,really angry with the decisions
they have to make.
Um, and they're really difficultdecisions.

(30:17):
And I've talked with lots ofthem and.
Several different states andthey struggle really hard with
those decisions.
And one of the things that, thatreally can go a long way, at the
end of every commission meeting,there's a call to the public.
You get a chance to comment onthings that were not discussed
at that meeting.
And I encourage people, just getup the, at the podium, introduce

(30:41):
yourself and just say thank you.
Don't

Dale (30:43):
Yeah.

elbow, don't say you screwed this up.
Say thank you, sit down, don'ttake a lot of time.
Um, I think that goes a longway.
Um, and so I kind of jumped onone of my soapbox there, Dale.
I, and I

Dale (30:56):
Yeah.
No, that's, that's, that's fine.
And, and that's what this isabout.

the engagement is so important.

Dale (31:05):
Yeah.
It really is because, uh, Ithink sometimes people forget
that I.
You guys aren't the end alldecision makers here, the
commission, um, you, you presentyour findings and you tell them,
Hey, this is why we think thisneeds to go this way, but they
make that final decision.

(31:25):
So the input that you get fromthe public really helps bolster
and support.
What you're doing.
So that's why it's so importantto interact with, with
everybody.
And if, if we all get in thistogether, and I'm not saying you
have to, you know, for all ofyou out there, I'm not saying

(31:45):
you have to agree witheverything.
I mean, some of you, in fact, alot of you are really smart on
this stuff.
You've spent a lifetime outthere in the outdoors doing
this.
So it's okay to say, I've got adifferent idea.
I, I kind of think it's this wayor that way.
That helps too.
So I'm not saying just shut upand, and go along, get that

(32:07):
input in there.
But, um, I, I really, especiallyin something that, that the mule
deer population in Montana is avery cherished thing.
Uh, you, you talk to mule deerhunters, they are very
passionate about it.

Yes.

Dale (32:22):
They, they love, they love the mul deer and they are a
unique and, and very interestinganimal.
So I, I get it.
So I think if we can all teamtogether, then the commission
really gets that full story andnow we're gonna get it moving in
the right way.

(32:42):
Uh, so go ahead.

important.
A lot of people think that, andI, you hear it all the time,
science should dictate theanswer.
Science is really good athelping us get to the end point
that we establish.
I.
the endpoint that we establishis dependent upon the public.
They, it's a, it's a socialdetermination.
Um, there is no right number ofelk or right number of deer.

(33:07):
You know, we can tell whenthere's too many, we can tell
when there's too few, butthere's a lot of room in
between.
And the same thing withpredators.
And so.
If the public shares with ustheir, their sentiment, um, the
commission can use that to helpmake decisions.
Um, our science helps informtheir decisions, but there's a

(33:28):
lot of social sideboards, um,that we've got room to move in
there.
And, um.
That, that input is, is reallycritical.
The other thing I like to sayis, you know, Montana is a great
big place

Dale (33:45):
Yeah.

we've got a lot of variation as we've been
talking about habitat anddisease and all this other
stuff.
Um, but.
We don't have to do the samething on every square inch of
the state.
We've got room to,

Dale (34:01):
Bingo.
Yes.

special management districts.
We can, we can, you know, haveplaces where we manage for
opportunity.
Um, and so got the ability totry to accommodate a lot of
these interests, um, if we craftit correctly.

Dale (34:19):
Uh, during these workshops so far, is there any, uh, topics
or, uh, themes from input fromthe public so far that, that
have been coming up quite often?
I.

You

Dale (34:33):
Or is it all over the place?

There's some variation amongst the cities
where we've been.
Um, but, you know, there's,there's often a recognition
that, uh, how important habitatis.
Uh, that's one of the thingsthat's Im, that's impressed me
is, is hunters really recognizehow important habitat is to the
overall, uh, health of thepopulation.

(34:58):
Um, they also recognize thatthat.
Predators play a role.
And, um, we need to manage that,those populations, just like we
manage deer and elk populationsor just like we manage, uh, tree
density, you know, all of thosethings.
Um, just.

(35:19):
take our hands off and just letnature take its course.
nature will take its course, butwe're not necessarily gonna like
where it goes.

Dale (35:27):
Right.

I think most of the, the messages and you know,
people certainly recognize that.
um.
Management plays an importantrole.
Um, some of the otherinformation, other consistencies
that I think is, uh, there'sobviously, uh, a real interest
in, in good quality data, bethat in harvest data or be that

(35:52):
in population data, uh, radiocollaring movement data.
Um, the, the hunters, um.
And the participants at thesemeetings all recognize the
importance of good quality data.
you know, from the agency'sperspective, you know, it's,
it's, it's.
Interesting how much hunters arewilling to invest in some of

(36:18):
that.
Uh, sometimes, um, we're, fromour perspective, from a
fiduciary to things, sometimesthe investment may be, uh, a
little bit more than what'sreally warranted.
But the fact that they are socommitted to having good quality
data, uh, that, you know, that'ssomething that's real consistent
too.

Dale (36:40):
Um, so can you, like, one of the things I get a lot, um.
And I completely understandtheir concern.
You know, I, I grew up, uh, inWestern Montana on a cattle
ranch.
Uh, we would see all thedifferent environmental factors
that came into play, uh,weather, habitat, all that.

(37:04):
And so, you know, sitting on aback of a horse chasing around
2000 head of cattle, you, youkinda learn what's going on out
there.
And, you know, sometimes Iwould, I would look at the, the,
uh.
You know, decisions that weremade of how many bucks were
gonna be allowed to be harvestedor dozed?
And I go, wait a minute.

(37:24):
Why, why are they doing it thatway?
How do you address that?
Because I think a lot of timesour listeners, uh, one of their
cri criticisms is, I don't thinkthey're seeing what, what I'm
seeing.
How, how do we rectify that?
Is it, is it they're mistaken?
You're mistaken?
Or do we just need to talk more?

Oh, you know, probably trying to get to a
better common understanding is,uh, is part of the challenge,
you know?
Um.
A lot of people ask a question,how are mule deer looking in
Montana?
Well, if you look in region one,they're doing differently than
they are in region six.

(38:06):
And you know, and so, you know,part of What we're looking at is
scale.
when you are, uh, a landownerand you're working a, a
particular piece of country, um,or if you're a hunter you're
scouting a piece of country thatyou've, you've hunted before and

(38:27):
had really good luck in, um, youmay be looking at that landscape
with a finer scale.
Uh.
Resolution to it than what theagency may.
so when we're looking at a, um,you know, with elk, frequently
we're looking at things on ahunting district level, uh, with

(38:50):
mule deer.
We may be looking at a trendarea or a population management
unit level.
And when we're looking at thingsacross a broader landscape, you
know, you may be absolutelycorrect in this canyon, there
are not the deer that I saw.
The last two years that might bedue to, um, some really small

(39:12):
scale weather changes.
It may have been really drythere.
Uh, there may have been a firethere, there may have, there may
have been some disturbance thatoccurred in there that drove the
animals out of that particulararea.
It could be a localized diseaseoutbreak of some sort.
And so you may see a very, finescale resolution change, but

(39:33):
when you look at it across.
The hunting district.
Well, that kind of levels out,you know, those maal have been
disturbed out of that area andmoved over.
Um, a couple canyons, and we maybe picking up, up on surveys
there.
Um, may have, or drought mayhave been an issue in this
particular area, but in anotherarea.

(39:55):
Um.
had more rainfall at just theright time.
Uh, and consequently, you know,we've seen more recruitment over
there, and yet they're allintermingling over the course of
the year.
So, um, not, we're notdiscounting, you know,
observations that individualsmake, but sometimes it's just
the scale that we're looking atthings on, and sometimes it's

(40:18):
the scale that we can managethings on.
wanna look at things, um,within.
We call population managementunits so that they're, we're
expecting all of the animalswithin that area to largely be
doing the same thing, moving inthe same direction, following
the same, uh, migrationcorridors, uh, responding to the

(40:40):
same.
But even within that, they'resmall scale changes that
sometimes we don't detect.

Dale (40:47):
Well, that's a good point.
And I, I guess, I mean, I'vebeen guilty of it.
Where, you know, I'll,especially when I was younger
and got out and tramped aroundthe, the, the woods, like a wild
man.
Uh, but I had my, my huntingspot, you know, this is where I
go and this is my hunting spot.
And oh, dang it, they messed upmy hunting spot.

(41:10):
But yet, when I'd be be outfishing, I wouldn't think that
way.
I've go, well, they're notbiting here.
Let's move on.
Yet we don't think that way withhunting.
And so, uh, I guess that'ssomething we, we do need to
think about is, you know, thepuzzle changes, the aspects
change.
So maybe we, we, we gotta thinkin more of a broader district

(41:33):
view of things.
I guess I, on the Right.
track here.

Yeah, I think you are.
And I, you know, the other thingis, uh, I like to, a couple of
things I like to share.
One is, uh, I can remember oneof the first, uh, hunt
recommendations I ever presentedto a commission back in Arizona.
And I mean, I poured my heartand soul into that thing, and
the commission took about.
minutes to consider it, changedit and went on about their

(41:58):
business.

Dale (41:59):
Oh, Jesus.

uh, and tried to hold it together.
And as I was getting back to theoffice after that, I was
lamenting to my, my supervisorat the time, and, and she looked
at me for a minute.
She said, Brian, get over it.
Rarely do we screw things up sobad this year that we can't fix
it next year.
And, and that's true.
You know, it is.

Dale (42:21):
Yeah.

changes, but the populations don't respond that
that badly.
Um, sometimes they're, it wasthe right thing to do.
the other thing, um, is a lot ofpeople, you know, I.
The doggone game departmentshave screwed this thing up from
one end to the other.
You know, I am not aware of asingle state or a single

(42:43):
jurisdiction where, uh, wildlifeagencies have been able to
manage mule deer out ofexistence.
They're still there.

Dale (42:50):
Yeah.

and, uh.
Um, that doesn't mean that wedon't need to be responsive and
that we don't need to listen,and we don't need to care about
this stuff.
Um, so I don't mean to be, uh,discounting those points, but,
sometimes mentioned passionearlier.
You know, sometimes we're sopassionate about something,

(43:12):
we're so convinced we're right.
We are so convinced that it,that we've had the epiphany that
everybody else missed.
Um.
It's a big state.
We've got room to do a lot ofdifferent things.
We don't have to do the samething on every square inch.

Dale (43:29):
Good point.
Hey, we're gonna take one lastbreak here.
Uh, and when we come back, uh, Iwanna address and we will wrap
things up, but I, I wannaaddress, um, one, what the
future, uh, input, um,opportunities look like.
And then also let's talk a bitabout if there's any kind of

(43:50):
inklings that, that you and yourstaff are starting to get as far
as.
Some changes that may start tobe proposed in this new plan.
So we'll address that rightafter we, uh, we talk with my,
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(46:25):
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Back here on the Montana OutdoorPodcast, Brian Wakeling is with
me.
And, uh, we have been having agreat discussion about our mule
deer.
And, um, you know, it's, it'sone of those things that, as we

(47:09):
discussed earlier, we all getpassionate about and they are an
amazing critter and we want'emto.
Stay around Montana a long timeand be able to harvest them and
do all that.
So, uh, it's been a great,great, uh, discussion with the,
the, uh, game Management Bureauchief here.
So, uh, before we go though,Brian, let's talk a bit about

(47:32):
what, what you've been hearing,what you've, you know, getting,
gathering all this data.
One, um, tell us again when youthink.
This management plan willactually be completed and, and
out.

Yeah, great question.
Um, so, uh.
As we started this project out,um, it's been, oh, just about a
year ago we had the CitizensAdvisory Committee, and at the
same time we hired a DLcoordinator.
Our DL is Adam Kauf.
and he's been with the agencyfor a year now.

(48:09):
Uh, he's leading the actual, uh,penmanship on the, uh, on the
plan.
And so, um, what we're planningto do.
Is to get that, uh, the firstdraft of something pulled
together off of everything, allthe preference surveys we've
run, all the data, we'vecollected, all of the, the input
we're getting.
Um, then try and get somethingcrafted towards the end of this

(48:33):
year, first part of next year.
So December 25, January 26th,somewhere in there at

Dale (48:39):
Okay.

What we'll do is we'll put that out, uh, and
share that for comment, and thatwill be an opportunity, first
opportunity of to, for people tobe looking at a full draft of,
of what we wanna be talkingabout and what we really.
We want to try to do is identifythe objectives that we want to

(49:01):
attain, and in the process ofidentifying these, those
objectives, then we'll alsoidentify a suite of tools that
we can use in order to getthere.
So, um.
In some places it may be a, abuck to dough ratio, a Fonda
dough ratio, uh, other parts ofthe state where we don't have,

(49:22):
uh, the ability to collect thatkind of data because of the
vegetation and the topography.
You know, it may be I.
that we can get off of, of, uh,camera traps and research we're
doing on that.
Um, it might be harvest levels.
Uh, there's a lot of demographicvariables that we can collect

(49:42):
that we can put into targets.
then, uh, we'll have the suiteof tools that'll help us get
there.
that's gonna be the seasonstructures that we may wanna
have.
Um, you know.
What will they look like?
Um.
It'll be the, the toolsassociated with the habitat.

(50:03):
Um, you know, what can we dowith, with habitat in order to
be able to get the populationlevels that we want See?
Um, it could be, you know,things to do with chronic
wasting disease management inorder to keep prevalence where
we want it to be.
It could involve, uh, changes toseason structure and hunts for

(50:25):
predators, uh, so that we canmanage those so we can get the
responses that we're lookingfor.
And there may be other thingsthat we come up with, uh, as
well.
So I.
That's gonna be the first draft.
We're gonna have that, uh,towards the end of the year, um,
December 25, January 26, get itout.
And that's where we'll, we'lltry to get comments from the

(50:47):
public on that.
Once

Dale (50:49):
Okay.

back and, and anything we receive at that
point in time has the potentialto change the plan.
And so after we finish withthat, then we'll also initiate
the Montana Environmental PolicyAct review.
And that point we will puttogether, uh, a, a draft ea, uh,

(51:10):
we'll share the EA and the plan.
also go out to the public.
that point, the, the public hasthe opportunity to comment, and
again, the plan may change basedon the comment we received
during that period of time,hopefully trying to get that
wrapped up, uh, and get itfinished by December of 2026.

(51:32):
Um, we're currently in abiennial season setting process
whereby, uh, we're planning totake our, uh, season structures
to the commission in December ofthis year.
plan will be complete and willactually be more informative,
uh, for the next biannual seasonsetting process, which will
culminate in December of 27.

Dale (51:55):
Okay, so just to clarify some of the.
Takeaways I, I got from that isone.
Um, there's still plenty ofopportunities coming up that
people can comment, uh, that,that can help, you know,
structure this and, andinfluence it.
Uh, two, two, it's probably alittle too early to tell as far

(52:15):
as specific changes that aregonna be made, if any.
Uh.
three.
There's not really gonna be anychanges to this upcoming season
based on any of this.
Am I correct there?

So the, the, the plan itself will not guide any
changes that we're going torecommend coming up, uh, for the
commission in December.
However,

Dale (52:40):
Okay.

um, as we're going through this process and
the season setting process,they're kind of happening pretty
close to the same time.
Uh, information we get duringthe season setting process might
influence the plan.
And information that we collectcurrently through these public
meetings certainly have thepotential to influence what we
might ultimately propose, uh, inOctober of this year.

(53:05):
And so, um, they're, they'rekind of informing one another,
but the plan won't be finalizedand it won't be the guiding
document that we'll use in thefuture, uh, in 2027.

Dale (53:18):
Do you see any significant changes to the mule deer season
as far as numbers and seasondates and all that for this fall
at all?

I am not necessarily seeing, um, a lot of
radical changes.
Um, we may see some, uh, someseason structures that get
proposed in order to meet, uh,existing objectives within, um,
uh.
Our adaptive harvest managementplan.
And so you'll definitely seesome changes perhaps to season

(53:51):
structure.
Uh, but it's not, at this point,we don't have, we don't
anticipate, um, you know, thatwe'll do, we'll either extend
seasons or we will do away withthe existing seasons.
Um, there may be some regionspecific changes that occur.
Um.

(54:11):
Uh, but we haven't, we haven'tfinished scoping all those ideas
yet either.
So,

Dale (54:16):
Okay.

until we get through that June, july period,
it's, it's difficult to say whatwe're ultimately gonna carry
forward to the commission.
Um, those will be posted, uh,typically around late October.
That's when our proposals willbecome formal.

Dale (54:34):
Okay, so stay tuned here, of course, to this podcast and
also to our live show everySaturday morning, the Montana
Outdoor Radio Show, and we'lllet you know, uh, as, as we get
information too, so that all ofyou.
Can flow back, uh, and bounceback.
What, what your thoughts are onthose.
Um, how about as far as otherstates?

(54:57):
You know, we talked a little bitabout Wyoming, so I'll use them
as an example.
Um, do you guys talk back andforth in, so you know, you're
putting this, this major muledeer management plan together.
Do you try to let say Wyomingknow?
'cause I mean obviously Deeredon't know borders, they go back
and forth.

(55:18):
Do you, uh, do you talk withother, uh, agencies to say, Hey,
this is our plan.
What's your plan?
How can we work together?

Yes, you're absolutely correct.
So, um, you know, earlier I hadmentioned the Mule Deer Working
Group and the WesternAssociation of Fish and Wildlife
Agencies.
And so, uh, we participate, uh.
uh, wwa, um, we, uh, weparticipate on sheep groups.
We participate on, um, on theMul Deer working group.

(55:50):
Adam, I mentioned Adam Kathearlier.
He's our representative on thatgroup.
And so, um, we coordinate and,and work with all of the other
Western states.
So by that we benefit from theresearch that they've conducted,
uh, the things that they'velearned, what works in their
state, what doesn't work.
Um.
the publics in the states tendto differ very much in the

Dale (56:14):
Yeah.

of the season structure tends to be very
different in each state.
Um, but it's often funny howmuch, uh, you'll hear from one
state, like, oh my gosh, I.
Everybody wants, in our statewants to do it the way Montana
does it.
You know, like, well that'sinteresting'cause everybody in
Montana wants to do it the wayyour state does it.

(56:37):
And so,

Dale (56:38):
Yeah.

it's, uh,

Dale (56:40):
Yeah.

a lot of times it's the grass is

Dale (56:42):
old grass is always greener on the other side Yeah,
I hear you.
Uh, lastly, what do you, isthere any one area that you look
at is like the hardest part ofdeveloping a major plan like
this?
What, what do you find is thehardest part?

So in a lot of cases, I think from a biological
standpoint, we can, we can, uh,we could do a real good job of
understanding, uh, where we are,what we'd like to see happen.
but there's, um.
There's largely four differentaspects of any management, uh,

(57:28):
action that you might in, in, inundertake.
the biology is one of them, and.
That's what we all went toschool for.
That's what we trained on.
Um, and most of our, most of ourfolks are really, really good at
that.
And then, um, another part of itI'd kind of mentioned, uh, our
fiduciary responsibility.

(57:49):
You know, it's like, um, what'sthe best investment?
Um.
As far as survey goes or harvestsurveys or what have you.
a lot of times we're looking attrying to make the, the best use
of our finances because there'sa fixed amount of revenue coming
in and we wanna spend as much ofit possible on good

(58:11):
conservation.
you've got the biology then it'swhat people say, we want to use
the best science available.
We don't wanna pay for the mostexpensive science if we don't
have to.

Dale (58:27):
Right.

the science that's adequate and and
appropriate for the situation.
Um, a third aspect of it is, uh,human dimensions.
so most states are starting toget pretty good at understanding
what human dimensions are.
They're starting to get prettydecent at, You know, trying to

(58:51):
recognize that the humanperspectives out there and, and
that they differ depending on,uh, what aspect of the community
you're looking at.
But the thing that, that'sprobably, uh, something that
I've recently been exposed to issomething that's referred to,
um, as normative ethicsnormative ethics really deal

(59:15):
with, you know, what's fair andwhat's right.
So if we say, you know, we wantto allocate opportunity using a
lottery draw, most people thinkthat's fair.
Um, sometimes we think aboutthings like what's, what should
be legal, what should beethical?
What, how, how should we dealwith, just about everybody

(59:38):
agrees that want and waste ofgame meat is.
Is inappropriate

Dale (59:45):
Absolutely.
Yeah.

that's not the thing to do.
But then there's things aboutthings that are unlawful, but
are they right or wrong?
Um, and most people would agreeand most people would wanna
throw the book at someone killeda, a bull elk outta season
simply to get the antlers.
But if that same person killedthat bull elk to get food for

(01:00:10):
their family, you're.
Looking at right and wrongcauses.
Um, and

Dale (01:00:15):
Uh huh.

Brian Wakeling (01:00:16):
that's a huge oversimplification of what
normative ethics are.
Oftentimes we're looking at, um,you know, what, what constitutes
fair chase in a certainsituation?
When is it appropriate to givehunters a a little bit of
additional assistance?
If it's going to be moreeffective at meeting our
management objective, you know,the conservation order for, for

(01:00:39):
light goose, for instance, wecan.
We can hunt light geese in thecentral Flyway in the spring
those geese are having issues onbreeding grounds.
And so we want to be able toreduce that population.
And so, I.
The federal government willallow for, uh, electronic calls.

(01:01:01):
In some instances, they willallow for, uh, no plugging of
your shotgun.
So you can, when you have anopportunity, you

Dale (01:01:10):
Yeah.

more.
And so that gets into the ethicsof the overall situation.
Is it right?
Is it fair?
Um, you know, it.
Night hunting for predators?
Is that an ethical thing or doesthat help us attain an objective
that we're trying to reach?
And so those are the kind of thechallenges and some of that
stuff, there's things that wecan do that help us meet the

(01:01:32):
objectives we're trying toreach.
But some of that can be of thebiggest challenge that, that
we're faced with.

Dale (01:01:41):
That makes sense.
And you know that that's kind ofan age old problem since, since
we were all put

we're only recently recognizing what that
is.
Um, like I

Dale (01:01:53):
mm-hmm.

only explicitly been pointed out to me within
the last year.

Dale (01:02:01):
Wow.
You guys gotta juggle a lot ofstuff.
Wow.
That is interesting.
That, that makes me think a lot.
That's interesting.
Um, well, lastly, is thereanything else that our listeners
can do to help you guys as faras, you know, with this plan
and, and just in, or maybe ingeneral, is there, is there more

(01:02:24):
that all of us out here on, onthis side of the microphone can
help with?

No, I think we've, you know, you hit on it,
uh, earlier on and, uh, wetalked on it a little bit, is,
you know, it.
You know, even the people thatdon't like hunting, but like
wildlife, on the same side that,that hunters are on.
We, the reason we're in this isbecause we enjoy the wildlife,

(01:02:53):
we enjoy the, the lifestyle.
Um, you know, be understandingof one another.
Be patient with one another.
Um.
for the volunteers that areserving as our commissioners
and, and, uh, the leadership forour agencies that aren't
necessarily volunteers, butnevertheless, um, they've really

(01:03:15):
got some pretty thankless jobsand, and just, and be a little
empathetic.
Thank them.
Um, and, uh.
Just, and at the same time, stayengaged.
There's a lot, I

Dale (01:03:27):
Right.

just looking at our, our webpage and then the
amount of information we'retrying to share, and we're
constantly trying to package itdifferently so we can share it
more effectively.
I.
Um, you know, when I, I've gottext messages, I got emails, I
have teams messages.
It seems like every time itcomes up with a new way to, to
send messages out.

(01:03:48):
I don't need more ways to be forpeople to communicate with me.
I just want'em all to use thesame way, in the same

Dale (01:03:55):
Yeah.

keep track of it.
So, um, uh, just keep commuting,stay communicating, stay
engaged, and, uh, be tolerant ofone another.

Dale (01:04:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Amen to that.
And when you hear, hey, it's,uh, we're looking for input on
this, that's the, you know,that's a great indication to
say, okay, yeah, I'm gonna geton that rather than.
Throwing out all this randomstuff, uh, you know, write your
thoughts down, think it through,and then yeah, let'em know
what's going on.

(01:04:28):
Um, so yeah, I, I think we're,we're getting in the right
direction here.
So Brian, I wanna Thank you, forall the time you've taken,
you've taken a lot of time, uh,today with me and, and, uh.
I think, uh, have given us somegreat information and, and some
great insight as to what allgoes into one of these plans
and, um, I'm anxious to now hearall of you that listen to this

(01:04:51):
podcast.
Get your feedback to me, and,and I'll also, uh, uh, put it in
there, uh, uh, uh, Brian'scontact so you can, you know,
send him an email and, and lethim know if you've got specific
questions about this podcast.
But then mainly stay tunedbecause we'll get you all that
input so that.

(01:05:11):
You guys will be able to followthis process along and, and be
part of it.
So at the end of the day whenthis plan comes out, we all had
a hand in it.
So I'm excited for that.
Brian, thanks again.
I.

you, Dale.
Appreciate it.

Dale (01:05:25):
And there you have it, gang.
Uh, that is some reallyinteresting stuff.
Uh, we learned about how thesausage is made and we're gonna
be part of that.
So let me know what yourquestions are.
Uh, Manny will give you my emailaddress and look at that podcast
description, uh, that you sawbefore you clicked and started
listening to this podcast'causethat's got a lot of links and a

(01:05:46):
lot of information in it.
to help you too.
So, until we, uh, talk again.
Thanks for listening.
Be good to each other out there.
Be safe and we'll see you nexttime here on the Montana Outdoor
Podcast.

Manny (01:06:06):
Thanks for listening to the Montana Outdoor Podcast.
It has been brought to you inpart by Superior Hardwoods of
Montana, home of the largestselection of in stock, high end
wood products and flooring inthe western United States.
Let them guide you throughtheWoods@superior-hardwoods.com
and by Rocky Mountain Truck andTrailer in Missoula, home of

(01:06:26):
boss snowplows, cm, truck bedsand diamond sea trailers.
Just go to RMTT e.com for moreinformation.
So what did you think of today'spodcast?
Send your questions and commentsto down
rigger@montanaoutdoor.com.
We should be dropping a newpodcast this next Saturday.

(01:06:47):
Until then, we will see you soonout in Montana's Great outdoors.

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Montana’s New Mule Deer Management Plan - Can We Solve Montana’s Mule Deer Issues?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Montana’s New Mule Deer Management Plan - Can We Solve Montana’s Mule Deer Issues?