June 16, 2025 • 60 mins
This week on the Montana Outdoor Podcast your host Downrigger Dale talks with Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks Fisheries Biologist, Cody Nagel. Rigger and many of you that sent him emails felt it was super important to check in with Cody about how Fresno and Nelson Reservoirs were doing after what we heard Bureau of Reclamation Project Manager Steve Darlinton said on last week’s Podcast. Steve showed us a very large whirlpool that had formed out in Fresno Reservoir caused by the huge amount of water that was being let out of it to get the farmers in the area much needed water for crops and livestock. If you would like to watch last week’s Podcast with guest Steve Darlinton, just click here. With drought conditions already happening and those being made worse because of the St Mary's Siphon being out of operation, there is a serious lack of water in the area and that everyone very concerned. So, with very low water now in Fresno and more water coming out of Nelson, will the fish survive? And what about the rest of the Milk River Basin? Listen to this podcast and get the answers to those and many other important questions about the present and future of these two wonderful fisheries. Plus, Cody also took some time to give a great update on how the Paddlefish season is going and he even gave some tips on how to not get skunked if you are lucky enough to have a tag for his area! Course, his great advice will work no matter where you are going to fish for those big nosed wonders of the deep. There is a TON if great information here so make sure you and mash that play button! If you want to watch the podcast you can do that on YouTube. Click here to do that! We would also love you even more than we already do if you would please share this Podcast on social media and with your friends and family!
Links:
- To learn more about Fresno Reservoir click here.
- Click here to learn more about Nelson Reservoir.
- To learn more about all the new Paddlefish regulation changes that Rigger and Cody talked about click here.
- Click here to watch Cody’s video titled "How to Snag and Release Paddlefish". It has some fantastic information!
- To watch another great video from Cody about how to catch a Paddlefish, and it is perfect to watch on your phone, click here.
- Do you have questions for Fisheries Biologist Cody Nagel? Just Click here to send him an email.
- Be sure and let Rigger know what you thought of this podcast and what your ideas are for future podcast topics!
Remember to tune in to The Montana Outdoor Radio Show, live every Saturday from 6:00AM to 8:00AM MT. The show airs on 30 radio stations across the State of Montana. You can get a list of our affiliated radio stations on our website. You can also listen to recordings of past shows, get fishing and and hunting information and much more at that website or on our Facebook page. You can also watch our radi
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
PC Open Manny Only (00:09):
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Downrigger Dale (01:10):
Thank you very much, Manny.
Welcome.
Welcome into the Montana OutdoorPodcast studio.
So good to have all of you alongwith us again, as we go in and
do us more exploration ofMontana's great outdoors.
I wanna give a special welcometo the men and women of the
United States Armed forces thatare deployed all across the
world.
It is just an honor that so manyof you uh, tune into this
(01:33):
podcast, and I hope, uh.
this brings a little bit of homeback to you as you protect all
of us all across the world.
Also, a big thank you to ourwonderful veterans that are
listening, and thank you foryour incredible service.
Uh, To everyone listening here,I got a quick favor to ask you
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(01:54):
this podcast on social media andwith your family and friends.
That helps us out a ton and um,also.
For those of you that um, wouldlike to see this on video uh,
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(02:16):
for those of you listening audioif you wanna listen later in
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'cause we'll see if we can sharea few pictures and things as we
go along.
And sometimes you get a kind ofa, an interesting view of, of
different things that we talkabout here.
So let's.
Talk a bit about what we'regonna talk about.
Last week we had on SteveDarlington and he is with the
(02:39):
Bureau of Reclamation, and wewere talking about Fresno
Reservoir and water levels andall kinds of things as they
continue to try to um, get allthat done on the, um.
failure of the St.
Mary's Siphon and the um, milkRiver Project and pretty complex
major, major project.
And as a result one of thethings in our discussion we
(03:02):
talked about, and I'll, I'll putup a, a uh, picture of this, but
uh, Steven shared a picture ofa.
Pretty large Whirlpool that hadformed as they're dropping the
level of uh, Fresno Reservoir.
And we, we started talking alittle bit about, you know, how
that might affect some of thefish populations and especially
(03:25):
since, you know, we've got.
Drought conditions on top ofother things.
So will that affect?
And, And our guest today, hisname came up in that discussion.
His name is Cody Ngel, and he isa fisheries biologist for FWP.
And uh, he said, you know.
cody's probably gonna be abetter one to ask, and I had
(03:46):
already had a uh, message intoCody about that.
So let's bring Cody in.
Cody, thank you so much forjoining us.
I know you've been busy uh, withall that you have going on.
Before we get into all the, thehealth of our fisheries around
the uh, region six and the areathat you cover in the, kind of
(04:07):
the haver area and across thehigh line tell us a bit about
yourself.
What you do for the FWP and allthat.
Cody Nagel (04:16):
Yeah.
Well, Thanks.
Rigor.
Um, Yeah, I've been with MontanaFish, wildlife and Parks in the
haver area as the fisheriesbiologist since 2008.
You know, I cut, cut my teethand was introduced to, the
recreation and fishing worldback in North Dakota.
I grew up in Bismarck so, fish,in that Missouri River system.
(04:39):
That's kind of where I peaked myinterest in fish and carried
that through a, a career withFWP now.
So yeah.
Downrigger Dale (04:47):
Mm-hmm.
And the, area that you cover.
That you, you cover the, thePaddlefish and in the Missouri,
and that's from the uh, Fort PacDam uh, going upstream, if I got
that right.
And then you also coverbasically the uh the, Milk River
basin from, what is it aboutFresno to Hinsdale?
(05:13):
Is that where your cover mostly?
Cody Nagel (05:16):
yeah.
So my, my general uh, managementarea is, is kind of, North
Central Montana hill Blaine andPhillips County.
So, uh, I got the Milk Riverbasin, essentially from the
eastern crossing where it comesdown from Alberta, above Fresno,
all the way over to Hinsdale.
And then, you know, all thestreams and cricks and the bear
(05:37):
paws and little rocky mountains.
All the pond fisheries up, up inthis area.
Um, And then yes, thatpaddlefish population above Fort
Peck Dam.
Downrigger Dale (05:48):
And we're gonna talk a bit about paddle fishing,
see how that season's been goingand that, but let's first get
into uh, talking a little bitabout uh, that discussion that I
had with Steve Darlington andFresno Reservoir.
I.
He had showed the, the pictureof that Whirlpool and I've got
(06:09):
it up on the screen now.
So in that picture that I haveup, we're looking at this
Whirlpool, is that still thereor has that gone away, or is it
Cody Nagel (06:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's, there's still a, aslight whirlpool going on out
there right now.
I would expect that to go awayhere though, in the next couple
days.
The releases of water arestarting to, to drop right now.
So I would expect probably inthe next day or two that they'll
(06:41):
probably have minimum flowsgoing out of there and, and the,
amount of water and thus thatwhirlpool will won't, be as, as,
as bad.
Downrigger Dale (06:51):
Now are fish getting sucked down that
whirlpool, do you think?
Cody Nagel (06:56):
And we've seen this on, on a lot of, a lot of our
reservoir systems, you know,when, when, whether it's a high
water event or a draw downscenario.
There is some, some level offish loss uh, or flushing that,
that will occur, whether it'sover a spillway or, or through
an outlet structure.
I mean, Fish sense that, thatpole of that water which kind of
(07:18):
will attract'em.
And then, yeah.
Yep.
And then you're dealing withdifferent sizes of fish.
You know, Right now with, itbeing kind of early or late
spring, early summer, I mean, wehave some small fish in the
system yet that we're.
Just hatched this spring.
So, you know, They're not asstrong as swimmers, so if they
get sucked into that it's, it'svery hard for them to swim out
(07:41):
of it.
Larger fish though they, theymight be able to swim out of
that and thus avoid gettingflushed out of the system.
Downrigger Dale (07:47):
So would they survive going through that
Whirlpool?
Cody Nagel (07:51):
Yeah.
So, um The one thing that'sunique with Fresno is it doesn't
have electric hydropower on itright now.
Um, So you don't have thoseturbine systems in there uh,
that sometimes can, can chop ordisorient fish.
There might be some level of,Mortality.
(08:13):
But it wouldn't be as high assay, you know, a dam that has,
you know, maybe some turbinesystem or a hydroelectric
Downrigger Dale (08:19):
Okay,
Cody Nagel (08:20):
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (08:21):
they, would take kind of a wild and then
Cody Nagel (08:24):
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (08:24):
end up in the milk there.
Cody Nagel (08:26):
Yep.
Yep.
They'll end up just, gettingreleased down into the Milk
River.
The only time that I've, thatI've physically seen uh, any
sort of fish kill through,through that dam system is like
early in the spring, like whenthere's still ice on the on the,
reservoir the, water's deep.
(08:48):
And there's kind of a barometricbarra that, that occurs where,
those fish get sucked down.
And, And the pressure is, whatends up being the mortality of
it, not necessarily the, tripthrough the dam,
Downrigger Dale (09:04):
And so when, you know, when we see a
whirlpool like that, I startgetting comments from, from
anglers, and I guess I kind of,and I love all of you that,
listen, don't get me wrong, butI kinda classify some of you
anglers as a glass is half full,some are, the glass is half
empty or completely empty.
(09:24):
And you know, some people say,oh, well that's gonna suck all
the fish out of Fresno.
We aren't gonna have any morefish in there.
And, And do they really have todo this?
And I think Steve, pretty muchanswered the question of do we
really have to do this?
I mean, They've gotta get waterdown for so farmers can
irrigate.
(09:45):
You know, We just don't havemuch water coming into the, the
Milk River from the St.
Mary's siphon.
'cause that blew up.
Uh.
Well, A little less than a yearago.
And so yeah, you gotta do whatyou gotta do.
The farmers are, we gotta haveour crops.
Uh, In fact, they're, from whatSteve had said, they're probably
only gonna get water for aboutthe first cutting, and that's
(10:09):
gonna be about it just because,combine the drought and the St.
Mary's siphon issue.
And so tell us a bit about howyou feel the overall.
Health of the fish population isin Fresno, given the challenges
we got going on here.
Cody Nagel (10:29):
Yeah so, and that's a good question.
Um, you know, I think you almosthave to take a step back first
and just kinda see how thatreservoir has a historically.
Been managed water operationswise and kind of the age of that
reservoir.
The amount of sedimentation thathas occurred has occurred over
(10:49):
the last a hundred years.
You know, One, we're dealingwith a reservoir that's lost a
third of its storage capacity.
It's not as deep as it once waswhen it was previ, you know,
originally built.
But then on top of that.
On average that reservoirusually is drawn down about 20
plus feet every year.
(11:13):
And That usually occurs inAugust.
A little bit different scenariothis year, you know, it's down
about 30 feet right now.
Probably gonna lose anothercouple of feet yet before it's
all said and done.
But it's a little bit differentin that.
When, historically when, whenthese big drawdowns occur it,
happens in August or September,and then you have to go through
(11:35):
an entire winter under these lowpool elevations.
This year with, with that siphonbeing repaired and hopefully
water getting moved here.
In the next few weeks we'reactually gonna get to see, you
know, a refill of, some sort ofhappen through the summer into
the fall which will set thingsup going into next year better
(12:00):
than, than it has historically.
So I guess, you know, there is asilver lining in all of it.
But there, there, will beimpacts for sure.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (12:08):
And to deal with those impacts.
Have you guys had any plan?
Are you gonna do any kind ofextra stocking into that
reservoir?
Things like that.
Cody Nagel (12:18):
Yeah, so there is a plan.
We'll, see.
We're gonna watch and seeexactly where we end up with,
our pool elevations here in thenext couple weeks.
I will be having crews outthere.
We're gonna be wa uh, monitoringwater quality.
So dissolved oxygen levels, youknow, water temps is gonna be a
(12:39):
big thing.
During that timeframe here,where that.
Where that low water isoccurring.
But we're waiting for thatsupplemental water to show up
how long is that time periodgonna be and, and how hot is it
gonna get?
'cause that that could have, youknow, major impacts on the fish
that remain in the system.
I.
(13:00):
Probably gonna try to get outthere and do a little bit of
netting to see what, we havebefore the refill happens, and
then some additional netting andsurveys in September when, when
more water's in the system, justto kind of give us a baseline
of, where we're at movingforward from this year.
But yes, we do have plans on, ontrying to get some fish stocked.
(13:22):
Uh, We are looking to stock somewalleye here towards the end of
the month.
It's really gonna depend on uh,if our hatchery trucks can get
close to the water.
So that'll be a big thing.
But we also wanted to wait too,because we didn't wanna put any
stocked fish in there withoutflows being high and, and
(13:42):
we're just sending those fishright down the milk River.
Downrigger Dale (13:45):
Yeah.
Cody Nagel (13:46):
So that's, you know, and then, um.
we're also talking with mileCity Hatchery too to see, you
know, potentially if there'ssome surplus or leftover yellow
perch or black croppy so that wecan start to reestablish that
forage base.
Yet this year, you know, thosewould probably be stocked
(14:07):
sometime in late July, earlyAugust.
So you know, already, Alreadytrying to look to the future
and, and, and get thingsreestablished as quickly as
possible.
Downrigger Dale (14:16):
Great.
How about access with these lowwaters you just mentioned, can a
hatchery truck even get closeenough?
Things like that.
So for fishermen, are they ableto launch boats are campgrounds
or areas around uh, fishingaccess sites around Fresno and
well, I guess even the MilkRiver system.
(14:38):
What's that like right now andwhat do you foresee going
through the summer?
Cody Nagel (14:43):
Yeah.
I mean, The campgrounds are allgonna be open.
You can use them.
They're, you know, the access tothe water though might be
difficult.
You know, When the water doesget this low it, gets really
mucky down near the water.
You, You sink really quick.
But you can still get to it.
(15:03):
Boat access is gonna bedifficult though probably for
the next month and a half to twomonths until, until some of that
supplemental water hits thesystem and that refill begins.
But yeah, I would, I would sayaccess is gonna be marginal at
best here for the next couplemonths.
Downrigger Dale (15:22):
Yeah.
I, I, you know, I you know, asan angler you can give it a try.
But you know, There's gonna besome challenges, like you say,
you're gonna sink into softground, things like that.
You need to be pretty carefulwith those kind of things that,
so I guess overall may maybe, isit a better idea for anglers to
(15:42):
kinda.
Pick another spot for a month ortwo until things get stabilized.
Cody Nagel (15:48):
Yeah, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea, at least
on Fresno.
I think access on Nelson will beokay for the summer.
But yeah, Fresno Fresno's gonnabe a little, little more of a
challenge.
Downrigger Dale (16:02):
So let's talk a bit about Nelson.
So, Like you say, Nelson mighthave some effects there as far
as uh, some accessibilities andthat one thing that Steve
Darlington had brought up isNelson has a, as a bit of
advantage in that it kind of hasits own little, uh.
what did he call it?
(16:22):
Kind of a its own little areawhere that holds water within
the reservoir.
So, It might get through thisdrought uh, time and, and all
this water take down time alittle better.
Is that, would you concur withthat?
Cody Nagel (16:39):
Yeah.
I, you know, and, and, and Stevenailed it.
It, It kind of has a natural uh,conservation pool.
We'll, say where.
Yeah, Yep.
Where, you know, they just, howNelson lays out you know,
there's a, pretty significantamount of water that they, they
just can't get to just based onhow it's laid out.
(17:02):
You know, Another, you know,again, another silver lining
with some of these drought yearsis that it, it gives these
reservoirs a chance to establishsome really good terrestrial
vegetation up in that littoralzone, in those shallow water
areas.
So that, you know, it kind ofsets the stage when when the
water does come back there's, anenormous amount of, terrestrial
(17:26):
vegetation that gets inundatedwith that water, which just
makes a huge boost to the entirewater system in that fish
community.
You'll see big better spawninghabitat.
And, And this trophic upsurge,you know, macrophytes
zooplankton and you get thisbaseline established for young
(17:47):
fish, which leads to bettergrowth rates and a better
overall fish community in thelong run.
Downrigger Dale (17:54):
Okay.
So like you say, there are a fewsilver linings around this.
How about the, the milk riverarea for, for the area of, of
the Milk River that you'recovering, that, that basin there
how is it holding up with thethe challenges of drought and
the, the whole ma St.
Mary's siphon issue and that,tell us about that.
Cody Nagel (18:17):
Yeah, so the, milk river, you almost gotta like,
break it up into a coupledifferent sections.
There's a, lot of low head damsand weirs.
You know, Fresno is an Onstreamdam.
I.
Um, where, Where when you movedown to Nelson, it's kind of off
stream.
It's not on the Milk River.
It's, kind of off and, gets fedthrough a canal system.
(18:39):
That's where that getssupplemented.
But you know, below Fresno Dam,we still have a lot of major
tributaries coming out of.
The Bear Paw Mountains out ofSouthern Alberta, Southern
Saskatchewan, that are gonna,you know, maintain flows below
Fresno Dam through the summer.
So I'm not too concerned aboutthat, you know, that that's
(19:00):
actually a pretty good fisherybelow Fresno Dam you're looking
at.
High densities of walleye,Northern pike small mouth bass.
And then as you move downthrough Dodson and into, into
Malta, you know, then you startrunning into like a catfish
fishery and a bunch of otherspecies that, that come out of
the Missouri River up into themilk.
(19:22):
You know, The one section of theMilk River that.
That we've been keeping a reallyclose eye on is that stretch
upstream of Fresno, that reallyrelies on that supplemental
water and mother nature.
And, And we just, you know, lastyear that section of river
essentially went dry and, andthat, river's made up of a lot
of native species um, long nosesuckers, flathead chubs.
(19:46):
So bur, and, you know, it justto see that completely dry it,
was, tough to see and there wassome fish kills that, that
occurred up in there.
So hopefully some of those fishdid find some refuge around Milk
River, Alberta and some poolhabitats or something to, keep
that, that date of species.
(20:07):
Population thriving, movingforward.
Downrigger Dale (20:12):
Well, And I guess that's one of the things
we forget is, you know, fisharen't stupid.
When they sense levels goingdown they kind of naturally seek
out where.
To go next, right?
Cody Nagel (20:25):
Yep.
Yep, they do.
And again it, it habitat's superimportant, whether it's on a, a
reservoir system, a naturallake, or a river.
And those, pool habitats becomereally important.
Um, And if you don't have those,those fish have nowhere to go.
They just end up on a drysandbar.
Downrigger Dale (20:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Then uh, the critters aroundthe, area, they get a, a free
lunch as.
Cody Nagel (20:54):
The, birds and raccoons eat, eat really well
for a few weeks.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (20:59):
Um, So overall you know, looking at, and before
we move off of like Fresno andNelson a bit,'cause Nelson's for
anglers is an importantreservoir in that often it kind
of becomes, you know, one, it isa destination reservoir for a
lot of anglers.
It, It is good fishing.
(21:19):
And this year from the reportsthat I've got back from anglers
uh, the, fishing's been prettydarn good on Nelson.
And then for anglers that reallylove to, to spend most of their
time on Fort P when when thewind happens and they get blown
off of there, Nelson becomes areal, option for a lot of
(21:40):
anglers and they'll head there,especially seeking wildlife.
How do you feel, Nelson,overall, that the health of that
fishery is and, and how wellwill that maintain through the
summer, do you feel?
Cody Nagel (21:53):
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (21:54):
An educated guess, but.
Cody Nagel (21:56):
Yeah.
No, Nelson's Nelson's aphenomenal fishery.
Yeah I, call it a four seasonfishery.
I mean, you can, You can it,fishes really well in the
wintertime.
It fishes well in the spring,summer, fall.
It's a multi-species fishery.
I mean, People love the targetwalleye there.
(22:16):
But there's a really good pikepopulation in there.
Really good perch population.
And, you know, we're starting tosee a, a growing small mouth
bass population as well.
So, Yeah it, it is, it's truly aphenomenal year round.
Downrigger Dale (22:34):
Yeah you know, I, I know that that was a big
concern with, with some of ouranglers that send me emails on a
regular basis and, and they'relike, oh well, is Nelson gonna
be okay?
And, And so that's good to hearthat.
You know, It's, it shouldmaintain.
And I know the good thing is youand bureau of Reclamation and
(22:56):
all that, everyone's beenkeeping a close eye on this.
And you know, I know that uh youknow, Steve had, you know, tried
his best to assure us, you know,they're doing everything they
can to, try to keep everythinggoing.
Of course, their.
is for what these reservoirswere created for, which is
irrigation in that, but they dostill try to keep an eye on the,
(23:21):
the wildlife.
And you guys, do you guyscoordinate with them quite often
as far as, for the fish fisheryside of it?
And, that, I know they kind ofget pulled both ways, but.
Cody Nagel (23:32):
Yeah, no you, you bring up a good point and, and
you know, kind of like you saidthere's, designations and
purposes for, for that waterright now.
And, reclamation and, and eventhe, the irrigators um, across
the, the high line.
I mean, they, They care aboutthe recreation.
(23:55):
When you run into a situationlike we've been in here
recently, I think Reclamation'sdone a really good job of
keeping us informed on what theplan is gonna be, what the water
levels are gonna look like, andit's given us an opportunity to
plan ahead and be prepared sothat we can do our job and, and
get these fisheriesreestablished and rebounded as,
(24:17):
as quickly as we can.
Yeah it's, been a, it's been agood relationship.
Downrigger Dale (24:22):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
That's good to hear.
We're gonna take a quick break.
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Downrigger Dale (26:59):
we are back here on the Montana Outdoor
Podcast.
Um, Cody Nagle is my guest, andwe're talking about the uh, milk
River Basin, talking aboutFresno and, and of course
Nelson.
And that I wanna shift gears alittle bit, Cody, and talk
about.
Paddlefish the, fisheriesbiologist, you know, you, guys
(27:23):
have to kind of be multifacetedand that you deal with
everything from the tiny littlemicroscopic stuff that fish feed
on all the way to these greatbig, huge paddlefish, which
amazes me in the Missouri River.
You, you, as I mentioned before,your main.
Area is from Fort Peck Damupstream.
(27:47):
Now that season got underway,May 1st and ends June 15th,
correct?
I.
Cody Nagel (27:54):
Yep, you're right.
Downrigger Dale (27:55):
Okay.
Now uh, there were a whole bunchof rule changes and, and I think
we have covered those.
Hopefully those of you thatwanna send me emails, by all
means do, and I'll get the, yourquestions answered and we will.
Try to get another update onanything from what you email me,
(28:18):
everyone and, I'll try to makesure we get those answered.
But from your perspective you,don't really get so much into
the rule side of it, but whatwas the reason for the, the
major rule changes as far aswhat you were explaining?
Cody Nagel (28:38):
Yeah.
So again, I think we gotta justtake a step back when it just
comes to Paddlefish um, and thenas a species, and then as a
recreational opportunity, andthen kind of how the, the
Montana FWP approach has beenwith that species for many, many
years now.
There's been several rulechanges and regulation changes
(28:59):
even since I showed up in 2008,whether it's changes to season
structure.
Um Limits on, on gaff use.
We went to snag and releasedfish now have to stay partially
submerged into the water.
We've kind of changed how our,our, how our harvest and and
(29:21):
season structures wanna bebanished between the yellow tag
on the Yellowstone um, and thewhite tag on the Missouri River.
Where, I oversee.
And then, you know, we've addeda new green tag below Fort Peck
gam.
Now that kind of coincides withthe yellow tag in terms of
harvest.
You know, And a lot of that justcomes back to a long lived
(29:44):
species and iconic big rivernative fish that, that anglers
can still enjoy.
And trying to balancesustainability of that
population moving forward.
Giving given, you know, some ofthe challenges that they have
just in terms of reproductionand, and all these other
(30:04):
requirements that need to be metfor them to thrive while also
allowing anglers the ability togo out there and enjoy'em.
Whether that's to harvest afish, the opportunity to harvest
Fish, or the opportunity to goout there and snag and release a
paddle fish.
Downrigger Dale (30:18):
Yeah.
Cody Nagel (30:19):
You know, So that's the balance and, and a lot of
our regulations and rules centeraround that, you know, how do we
sustain this, this iconic fishwhile also allowing public
opportunity.
Downrigger Dale (30:34):
Yeah.
And I know that that has to be,you know, a bit of a juggling
act in that the paddle fish and,and we'll, we'll get into some
of more of the characteristicsin a minute.
But, you know, they, they've hadsome challenges and that, you
know, they.
When God put'em in there, they,there weren't dams, there
weren't a lot of those things.
(30:55):
So there, there's some of thosechallenges that you've had to
deal with.
But I know one of like, one ofthe emails I got from from one
of our listeners said geez,those things the, regulations
got so confusing.
It's almost like they wanted toconfuse us.
Now, obviously that was not theintent, how what, what have you
(31:15):
heard as far as uh, theconversations around the area
have, have.
Anglers kind of adopted to this.
Are they figuring it out?
Cody Nagel (31:24):
Yeah, no, they are figuring it out.
And, you know, when we doregulation changes and stuff, I
mean, we do, we try our best to,to make sure there's some
consistency between the, the,the different snag fisheries and
populations.
But at the same time, there'salso, I.
Certain circumstances where, youknow, what might work on the
(31:45):
Missouri River above Fort Packdoesn't work for the
Yellowstone.
So, you know, There might be alittle bit of deviation from
time to time, but, our intent isnever to make things more
complicated.
If, If nothing else, we'retrying to make it easier and
more and understandable.
Um, So people can just go outthere and enjoy.
(32:06):
The opportunity rather thanworrying about all the
regulations, but um, sometimesthat's hard to balance.
Downrigger Dale (32:13):
Yeah.
But on the other side, this kindof.
Emphasizes the fact that whenyou're asked for public comment.
Give that comment because I knowfor a fact you guys rely heavily
on that from what anglers aretelling you and what they're
experiencing and trying to setsome of those plans.
(32:33):
So, I really have, and I know Ibeat this drum really hard on
this podcast, but I just can'tstress it enough that, you know,
when you get an opportunity asanglers,'cause you know, I'm not
discounting uh, your frustrationat all and.
I won't lie.
Sometimes I get frustrated withchanges, you know, we all get
territorial and that's my areaand I was used to doing it this
(32:56):
way, and so I, I hear you.
But things gotta change to makesure we, we keep that balance.
So just remember folks whenthey're saying, Hey we, we want
this uh, this input on, youknow, this change or ideas or
thoughts.
They're not saying that.
to say it because they have to,they're saying it'cause they
(33:16):
really wanna know.
I know that you, I'm sure getcomments in that those are
helpful to you, right?
Cody Nagel (33:24):
Yeah, no, for sure.
And you hit the nail on the headright there.
During the last regulation cyclewe did, we allowed.
The public, the opportunity tomake proposals to the department
on, on certain regulations.
And I believe at least two ofthose paddlefish regulations
stemmed from public comment andthey were actually submitted as
(33:47):
public proposals.
FWP looked them over and, and,and said, yes, these make sense
both biologically and, wecarried'em moving forward.
And they were, they were movedby the public.
Yep.
Downrigger Dale (34:04):
Overall, how has the paddlefish season gone
and do you have an idea as faras where you're at quota wise
for your area?
Cody Nagel (34:12):
Yeah.
The Paddlefish Sea season hasit, it's been Okay.
You know, The one thing that wereally ran into, at least on
the, on the Upper Missouri Riverthis year is, is.
We kind of came in with some lowflows which, which kept the fish
down near the headwaters of FortPeck and, and they didn't come
up the river until about thesecond week of the season.
(34:34):
And then flows, flows jumped alittle bit to about 10, 11,000
CFS, which usually gets the fishup around the Fred Robinson
Bridge area.
Um.
Then the, the flows kind of justwent flat rate at that time,
about the third week of May.
Um, And anglers did they, didreally good for about a three,
four week period there.
(34:55):
And now we're starting to seeflows go back down again.
I think we're right around 7,000CFS.
Historically, at this time ofyear we're, we're around 20,000
CFS.
So, you know, In terms of asnagging season, it, I would
call it a, a fair year.
But in terms of like, um, theflows we'd like to see for
(35:17):
spawning success and things likethat for the fish it, it, it
hasn't been a good one.
But yeah.
And then when it comes to theharvest cap we do have a harvest
cap on the, on the upperMissouri River.
You know, We're trying toharvest or see, a mortality of
a, of no more than 500 paddlefish each year.
(35:39):
I.
How we do it a little bitdifferently though on the upper
Missouri River is we do itthrough a lottery tag system.
So every year we send out youknow, a thousand people are put
in for that, that tag.
And we, give out a thousandharvest tags but we don't close
the season down.
If you drew a harvest tag, youget to go and, and, and try to
(36:01):
harvest a fish, but we try tokeep that running average below
500 and, we've been Able to dothat and that's.
We've been under that system nowsince 2016, and it's been
working really well.
Downrigger Dale (36:13):
And do you know how many have been harvested so
far then?
Cody Nagel (36:17):
So on average, we're we, usually, it's, it is
typically somewhere between 375and 475 fish is, is what we
typically get for a harvest,
Downrigger Dale (36:30):
I wish all the, those that uh, have a tag for
that area good luck and, and byall means, be sure and send us
pictures.
I, I love to be able to showpictures on future podcasts and
of course we love to post'em onMontana outdoor.com.
So you know, uh, Send us thosepictures'cause those are
awesome.
Now when, uh.
(36:52):
anglers decide to make the trip.
And, And uh, talked to Anglers,of course, all across the state
of Montana and, and even inWyoming.
And, that I also do some, uh,broadcasts for areas of Wyoming
and the Dakotas and that, and.
They will travel all the way upthere.
People come from all over.
(37:13):
That's a, that's an iconicthing.
You get that tag you and you'relike, all right, here I go and,
then you, you get skunked andyou're like, dang, you know, I
spent all that time and money.
What would you say are, are someof the most common mistakes that
us anglers make?
That caused us to get skunkedgoing after those big paddle
fish.
Cody Nagel (37:33):
Yeah.
Um, So the main thing withPaddlefish is just understanding
the areas where those fish aregonna be in, in terms of
relation to flows.
When we don't have really goodflows, it keeps the fish.
In downstream locations.
(37:53):
Sometimes they're just hard tobe, you know, the accessibility
to'em is, is difficult justbecause they're in some really
remote areas.
Um, And then just trying to timeup the flows with some of those
access areas along the MissouriRiver.
I mean That's the, that'sprobably the biggest thing is
just being where the fish are.
(38:14):
It's, you know, especially ifyou don't have a boat or
something like that.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (38:18):
Yeah.
It uh, it, can be a challenge,but it it's sorta an exciting
thing when you can land a, afish like that and see'em they
are a fascinating fish to me.
How, long have they actuallybeen in the, Missouri River?
Cody Nagel (38:41):
I, I, I would say they've been in the Missouri
River of almost as long as theMissouri River's been around.
You know, They have fossilrecords that date back, millions
of years.
I've seen the number fluctuatefrom 70 to over 150 million
years.
They've been around you know,the.
It's probably the biggest uniquething about that Paddle fish
(39:04):
stock above Fort P is, to myknowledge, it's the farthest
north and westerly population inthe United States.
So And it's an isolatedpopulation so, if what's there
is there we don't, get fishcoming in from, from other
rivers or sections.
It's an isolated population.
(39:26):
You know, The other thing that'sreally cool about that Fort Peck
stock is it's completely wild.
We've never stocked Paddlefish.
Downrigger Dale (39:35):
Oh, really?
I didn't know that.
Oh.
Cody Nagel (39:38):
in Fort Peck.
Nope.
That is a completely wild stock.
And, we wanna continue to manageit that way.
You know, That long termsustainability on a, on a wild
stock of fish,
Downrigger Dale (39:52):
Okay.
All right.
I wanna take one more quickbreak here.
And we're gonna chat a littlebit
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Downrigger Dale (42:25):
Back here on the Montana Outdoor Podcast,
Cody Nagel and I have beentalking about all kinds of
things that go on there in theMilk River Basin and Missouri
and all that.
Before we get off that, thetopic of paddlefish, which like
I said, it's just such afascinating fish what, do you
find is as a biologist, of themore interesting things about
(42:48):
that, I guess kind of aprehistoric fish.
Cody Nagel (42:52):
Yeah.
You know, To me one of the, oneof the biggest things is, well
two, two things.
One how old they can live.
I mean, you know, every, Everyyear we ask anglers to I.
Voluntarily submit a section ofthe lower jaw on these fish
from, from the harvested fish.
Anyway.
(43:13):
Um, and, And you know, one, oneof the, you know, the biggest
component of that is to see kindof what the age structure of of
our, population is.
And what we're looking for thereis we wanna see young fish
coming into the system.
These fish don't sexually matureuntil they're, teenagers.
You know, Females don't, don'tbecome, um.
(43:35):
sexually mature till they'reabout 16, 17 years old.
Males about nine or 10.
Um, So we're looking at, youknow, how many young, young fish
are coming into our population,but you know, also, do we have
old fish in the system?
And, and, And every year we seea handful of fish that exceed 60
years old.
Last year we saw a fish that's72 years old and.
(44:00):
As a biologist right now, there,there's possibly some fish that
are gonna hatch this year andrecruit into the population.
And I am gonna be buried in theground.
And, And those fish are gonna beswimming, you know, 40, 50 years
from now.
I won't be here, but they willbe.
So that that's, one reallyinteresting thing about the
(44:21):
fish.
You know, The other is, youknow, you look at the Missouri
River and you're sitting therealong the bank and you're
watching all this turd muddywater coming by you and to, to
think here's all this water.
It looks like how would younotice a difference in a
thousand CFS one way or theother?
(44:41):
But these fish can detect that.
I mean, The slightest changesand flows will make these fish
migrate one way or the other.
If, the water's dropping alittle bit.
And they don't like it.
They'll, move back down riverif, there's a little bit of a
bump or a rise, they will shootup river.
They can travel 15 to 20 milesin a day.
(45:04):
It's just, it they're aphenomenal fish.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (45:08):
Wow.
And I, I guess, around thatlong, millions of years, they
got it figured out by now uh, I,I had no idea.
I mean, They're almost similarto people as far as how long
they live and and all thatstuff.
That's interesting.
I had no idea that, that, sothey, they gotta survive a long
(45:31):
time before they can evenproduce young then.
Cody Nagel (45:34):
Yeah.
You know, And that's one of thebig challenges, you know as a
biologist is, and again, whenwe're looking at.
The recreation component and,allowing folks that opportunity,
you know, we're balancing thelongevity of these fish.
They, They don't reproducesuccessfully every year.
I mean, They try to, but theyneed a lot of to align perfectly
(45:59):
to see, you know, good yearclasses produced.
And we have seen that a handfulof times in the last 15 years.
So it, you know, they're stillreproducing.
They're still doing okay.
But we're just we always keep aclose tab on, you know, what's,
what's being taken out forthrough harvest um, and other
mortality events.
And then what's coming inwhat's, what's the next year
(46:22):
class looking like?
What's the future look like?
Because that's really important.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (46:29):
It's, amazing.
It's, It's cool that we havethose fish so many people.
We, we have viewers andlisteners from all around the
world, that fish probably getsthe most response from people
that, that don't live nearMontana and even in live in
different countries that go,what in the hell is that thing
(46:52):
and how did it get in the river?
You know, it's just, It's justsuch a, a, a, unique thing and
different.
We're kinda lucky to have thatfish, aren't we?
Cody Nagel (47:04):
We are, you know, and you know, some of the
listeners that, have probably,you know, have handled or seen a
few of paddle fishes.
Yeah, no.
Two lookalike there is, a lot ofdifferences.
You'll, You'll see some reallydark black ones, you'll see
light ones, you'll see some withfreckles all over'em.
They're just, there's a lot ofcharacteristics from one fish to
(47:27):
the next.
So it's pretty cool.
I mean, you, you, You catch aperch and.
They all look the same
Downrigger Dale (47:35):
the first.
Cody Nagel (47:36):
for the most part.
But, these paddlefish yeahthey're unique for sure.
Downrigger Dale (47:42):
Wow.
One of the things before we go,I wanted to touch on you know,
we talked a bit about the, MilkRiver and your area and that,
but I, I wanted to, get a littlemore information about that for
our anglers that may have neverthought about uh, you know, fish
in the milk.
I like that area.
(48:03):
I, I do, I think it's, unique.
It's a such a fascinating river.
A lot of people don't realizethat's the second longest river
in Montana.
A lot of people don't know thatone.
Uh, Missouri, of course, beingthe longest what.
Area where, would be the bestspot for anglers to, to have
(48:26):
luck.
If they say well, I don't carewhat a catch.
I just wanna go catch somethingand then talk a bit about all
the different species that theycan find in that river.
Cody Nagel (48:35):
Yeah, so your, best angling opportunities are, are
probably gonna be from FresnoDam.
Downstream um, to the confluenceof the Missouri River.
We do have several fishingaccess sites along the Milk
River.
The tail waters FAS below FresnoDam there's a wildlife
(48:58):
management area that you canaccess uh, right around the
haver area.
There's a fishing access site inMalta.
So you, you know, anglers willhave to do a little bit of
research.
A lot of the land is private.
But, you know, stream access lawdoes apply, you know, so if
you're willing to wade you can,fish different stretches of the
river.
(49:19):
You know, I Would say thoseupstream areas around Fresno
Dam, down through Harlem you'reprimarily looking to catch
probably, you know, pike walleyesmall mouth bass.
But as you move downstream you,you can run into a lot more
different species, catfishpossibly soer maybe some
(49:40):
bourbon.
But you're looking at likebuffalo species goldey drum.
You just never know what mightbe on the end of your line once
you get past Malta on the MilkRiver.
But yeah it's, a really, it'skind of a hidden gem, you know?
I think some of the accessdifficulties um, intimidate a
(50:02):
few people, but if you'rewilling to put in the time and
just kinda see like, Hey, wherecan I legally access it?
Um, And you can find a couple ofpools and holes and, some good
areas you can have a lot ofsuccess on it.
Downrigger Dale (50:14):
Yeah.
One of the, my favorite areas,you know, going up from the dam
on the Missouri, when you hitthat confluence, you can go up
into, you know, by boat into themilk a little ways and where
that kind of all comes togetherand then going on up, that can
be some really good walleyefishing at times really good.
(50:35):
So that, that's a fun place togo.
Yeah.
So I, I encourage you todiscover this river and, and,
don't give up because of thesechallenges, because those, those
are getting taken care of.
In fact I'm, still amazed at howquickly they've moved to repair
(50:56):
that St.
Mary's siphon and the thingsthat they're doing.
Do you uh, see any kind ofchallenges that may happen?
When they are able to turn thatback on and get the flow going,
is that gonna confuse fish atall?
Or what do you think is gonnahappen with all that?
Cody Nagel (51:17):
Yeah.
Um, No I, don't see, I don't seeany impacts with that being
reopening and that water makingit back, back down uh, into
Fresno and, and eventually intothe milk.
Um.
You know, Again it, it justseems like the, long-term
challenges is always gonna be alimited amount of water that can
(51:41):
get carried through the system.
And, you know, just in my timeup here as the fish biologist.
We, whether you're an irrigator,a municipality user an angler or
a fish like it is so important.
Every year we, we, all sit hereand watch the weather, you know,
(52:02):
are you gonna get that timelyrain in May or June?
If you get it.
That can, may have hugeramifications for what your
water conditions are gonna befor the rest of the summer.
If you don't get it, you know,everybody's scrambling going,
okay, now what do we do with thelimited amount of water, you
know, to go around to everybody.
So that's gonna continue to be achallenge.
(52:24):
Um.
Moving forward and, and youknow, again like, communicating
with reclamation and, and someof these irrigation districts
um, those are gonna continue sothat we're, you know, we can
manage these fisheries the bestas we possibly can.
You know, I, I'd also just liketo say like, when it comes to
Fresno, it's gonna be hard tosay right now what the impacts
(52:47):
are gonna look like.
But again I'm, I'm trying tofind silver linings here.
You know, Fresno is really goodat growing fish fast.
Um, even if we have a majorsetback, if we can get, whether
it's natural reproduction nextspring with some stocking
efforts, by two or three years,we can have a, a.
(53:09):
A Fresno walleye is about 15, 16inches.
Downrigger Dale (53:13):
Really.
Cody Nagel (53:14):
yes.
Yeah, so that's a silver lining.
I mean I don't foresee impactsas long as we have decent water
conditions moving forward, youknow, I don't see the impacts
lasting 5, 10, 15 years.
Um, you know, I think it'll bequick.
And, And hopefully folks willget back out to Fresno because
(53:34):
it is it's, it's when, when,everything's going well out
there, it is a phenomenal.
Walleye fishery.
I mean it.
It is a walleye factory for 14to 20 inch walleye.
It is a great place to go.
Downrigger Dale (53:49):
I encourage everyone to to utilize these
areas.
You know, A lot of times we getfocused on the big water but
there's a lot to discover.
Out there for sure.
Cody, I wanna thank you verymuch for the time you've taken
here today and you know, I knowyou're busy, but this is
important for, us.
(54:10):
Just as you know, us anglerslove to have access to water.
We love to have access to thebiologists and that and learn
more about where we're fishing.
One last question I did have, itseems to be in, in.
M maybe I'm just hearing moreabout it or that, but it just
seems like mouth bass seems tobe kind of on the rise these
(54:31):
days.
I hear more and more people onFort Peck, that, that are
finding them uh, really startingto have a lot of fun with that
fish.
They are a fun fish to to catchand to deal with.
Are the small mouth bassnumbers, are they increasing or
are we just talking more about'em these days?
Cody Nagel (54:54):
Yeah.
Um, you know, Like they areincreasing, they're, starting to
get distributed.
I'll, I'll just say that, youknow, and, and, and they're.
They're, a species that canthrive in a lot of different
environments.
They can thrive in a lakeenvironment.
They can thrive in a reservoirenvironment, and we're coming to
(55:15):
find they can thrive in our coolwater rivers.
It's hard to say right now, likewhat the long-term impacts will
be, if any.
But, you know, anytime a newspecies starts to thrive.
Whether, you know, it's, it's a,a fish we like to target or not,
you know, there, there could besome ramifications for other
(55:38):
species but
Downrigger Dale (55:39):
Yeah.
Cody Nagel (55:40):
I know a lot of the folks out in the field in my
position are monitoring thesepopulations, trying to keep
track of'em and I guess as froman angler's perspective go out
and enjoy'em, I guess, you know,they're, they're, here.
I mean, it, It's hard to, it'shard to, hard to get rid of fish
once they start to establishand, and we're finding these
(56:02):
small mouth bass they cannaturally reproduce in a lot of
different environments and, andthey're doing good in'em Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (56:10):
And they might blend a little in a little
better in tho the, your areasand that I know.
Over west of the divide in theMissoula area, bitter Valley
area, they have found some uh,smallies in the Bitter River,
and that be a prettycatastrophic effect because that
(56:35):
fish could, dominate that riverpretty quickly.
And so they, they, have askedanglers to make sure and, and do
not throw any of those back.
Make sure they, they areremoved, but, uh.
Cody Nagel (56:48):
yeah, no, I would, I would say though like, I mean
just looking at another speciesthat we're starting to learn
more about, at least in ourPrairie Stream system, so like
some of these small streams thatconnect to the Milk River is.
Pike do really well in, in thesesystems, you know, so they'll
run up these little tributariesand reproduce and, and then, you
(57:09):
know, you get small pike that,that thrive in these small
prairie systems.
Um, And they're, they're toosmall for anglers to really
target or prefer, I mean, we'retalking like eight to 15 inch
pike, but those pike are bigenough to, to really do some
damage to our, you know, ournative mineral populations that.
(57:29):
That thrive in those prairiesystems that that feed the forge
base to the milk river.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (57:35):
Yeah it's, a never ending deal for you guys.
You're like referee trying toall these fish to deal with each
other, andrs and.
You guys are doing a good job,and we, we certainly appreciate
all you've done for us.
I'm gonna put your email in theum, podcast description, so if
(58:00):
listeners do have some, somequestions for you, hopefully
you'll get time to uh.
get back to'em if they do.
And of course, all of youlistening, you're more than
happy to, you're more thanwelcome, brother, to get back to
me and, and I'll track downanswers for you as as much as I
can, as I always do.
And, And I enjoy doing that.
So be sure and send me those,those emails.
(58:21):
Send me those pictures and letus know what else you wanna know
about this area that uh, Cody'sbeen telling us about.
And, uh, that way when uh, wehave him on again down the road,
uh.
We can answer some of thosequestions for you after you,
you've listened and watched thispodcast.
Anything else before we go,Cody, that you'd like to, we
outta here.
Cody Nagel (58:42):
No I, I appreciate the opportunity.
Yeah, and if anybody has anyquestions or you know, feel free
to email me.
I will, I will get back to youat some point so, yes.
Yep.
Downrigger Dale (58:53):
All right.
Be careful out there in Fresno.
I'll stay away from thatWhirlpool.
Now, I told everybody, don't getyour boat near that thing.
That could be interesting.
Anyway, Cody, thanks so much.
Uh, Thanks for all you do and,and we'll see you next time uh,
when we uh, visit your area.
PC Close Manny Only (59:13):
Thanks for listening to the Montana Outdoor
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(59:34):
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rigger@montanaoutdoor.com.
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Now let's head out with yourhost down rigger Dale and see
what's going on in Montana'sgreat outdoors.
Downrigger Dale (01:10):
Thank you very much, Manny.
Welcome.
Welcome into the Montana OutdoorPodcast studio.
So good to have all of you alongwith us again, as we go in and
do us more exploration ofMontana's great outdoors.
I wanna give a special welcometo the men and women of the
United States Armed forces thatare deployed all across the
world.
It is just an honor that so manyof you uh, tune into this
(01:33):
podcast, and I hope, uh.
this brings a little bit of homeback to you as you protect all
of us all across the world.
Also, a big thank you to ourwonderful veterans that are
listening, and thank you foryour incredible service.
Uh, To everyone listening here,I got a quick favor to ask you
before we get into the podcast,and that is uh, please share
(01:54):
this podcast on social media andwith your family and friends.
That helps us out a ton and um,also.
For those of you that um, wouldlike to see this on video uh,
that's something new we addedjust a few weeks ago.
So the podcast is now on videoand you can uh, catch that on
YouTube and I'll put a link inthe podcast description there
(02:16):
for those of you listening audioif you wanna listen later in
video.
'cause we'll see if we can sharea few pictures and things as we
go along.
And sometimes you get a kind ofa, an interesting view of, of
different things that we talkabout here.
So let's.
Talk a bit about what we'regonna talk about.
Last week we had on SteveDarlington and he is with the
(02:39):
Bureau of Reclamation, and wewere talking about Fresno
Reservoir and water levels andall kinds of things as they
continue to try to um, get allthat done on the, um.
failure of the St.
Mary's Siphon and the um, milkRiver Project and pretty complex
major, major project.
And as a result one of thethings in our discussion we
(03:02):
talked about, and I'll, I'll putup a, a uh, picture of this, but
uh, Steven shared a picture ofa.
Pretty large Whirlpool that hadformed as they're dropping the
level of uh, Fresno Reservoir.
And we, we started talking alittle bit about, you know, how
that might affect some of thefish populations and especially
(03:25):
since, you know, we've got.
Drought conditions on top ofother things.
So will that affect?
And, And our guest today, hisname came up in that discussion.
His name is Cody Ngel, and he isa fisheries biologist for FWP.
And uh, he said, you know.
cody's probably gonna be abetter one to ask, and I had
(03:46):
already had a uh, message intoCody about that.
So let's bring Cody in.
Cody, thank you so much forjoining us.
I know you've been busy uh, withall that you have going on.
Before we get into all the, thehealth of our fisheries around
the uh, region six and the areathat you cover in the, kind of
(04:07):
the haver area and across thehigh line tell us a bit about
yourself.
What you do for the FWP and allthat.
Cody Nagel (04:16):
Yeah.
Well, Thanks.
Rigor.
Um, Yeah, I've been with MontanaFish, wildlife and Parks in the
haver area as the fisheriesbiologist since 2008.
You know, I cut, cut my teethand was introduced to, the
recreation and fishing worldback in North Dakota.
I grew up in Bismarck so, fish,in that Missouri River system.
(04:39):
That's kind of where I peaked myinterest in fish and carried
that through a, a career withFWP now.
So yeah.
Downrigger Dale (04:47):
Mm-hmm.
And the, area that you cover.
That you, you cover the, thePaddlefish and in the Missouri,
and that's from the uh, Fort PacDam uh, going upstream, if I got
that right.
And then you also coverbasically the uh the, Milk River
basin from, what is it aboutFresno to Hinsdale?
(05:13):
Is that where your cover mostly?
Cody Nagel (05:16):
yeah.
So my, my general uh, managementarea is, is kind of, North
Central Montana hill Blaine andPhillips County.
So, uh, I got the Milk Riverbasin, essentially from the
eastern crossing where it comesdown from Alberta, above Fresno,
all the way over to Hinsdale.
And then, you know, all thestreams and cricks and the bear
(05:37):
paws and little rocky mountains.
All the pond fisheries up, up inthis area.
Um, And then yes, thatpaddlefish population above Fort
Peck Dam.
Downrigger Dale (05:48):
And we're gonna talk a bit about paddle fishing,
see how that season's been goingand that, but let's first get
into uh, talking a little bitabout uh, that discussion that I
had with Steve Darlington andFresno Reservoir.
I.
He had showed the, the pictureof that Whirlpool and I've got
(06:09):
it up on the screen now.
So in that picture that I haveup, we're looking at this
Whirlpool, is that still thereor has that gone away, or is it
Cody Nagel (06:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's, there's still a, aslight whirlpool going on out
there right now.
I would expect that to go awayhere though, in the next couple
days.
The releases of water arestarting to, to drop right now.
So I would expect probably inthe next day or two that they'll
(06:41):
probably have minimum flowsgoing out of there and, and the,
amount of water and thus thatwhirlpool will won't, be as, as,
as bad.
Downrigger Dale (06:51):
Now are fish getting sucked down that
whirlpool, do you think?
Cody Nagel (06:56):
And we've seen this on, on a lot of, a lot of our
reservoir systems, you know,when, when, whether it's a high
water event or a draw downscenario.
There is some, some level offish loss uh, or flushing that,
that will occur, whether it'sover a spillway or, or through
an outlet structure.
I mean, Fish sense that, thatpole of that water which kind of
(07:18):
will attract'em.
And then, yeah.
Yep.
And then you're dealing withdifferent sizes of fish.
You know, Right now with, itbeing kind of early or late
spring, early summer, I mean, wehave some small fish in the
system yet that we're.
Just hatched this spring.
So, you know, They're not asstrong as swimmers, so if they
get sucked into that it's, it'svery hard for them to swim out
(07:41):
of it.
Larger fish though they, theymight be able to swim out of
that and thus avoid gettingflushed out of the system.
Downrigger Dale (07:47):
So would they survive going through that
Whirlpool?
Cody Nagel (07:51):
Yeah.
So, um The one thing that'sunique with Fresno is it doesn't
have electric hydropower on itright now.
Um, So you don't have thoseturbine systems in there uh,
that sometimes can, can chop ordisorient fish.
There might be some level of,Mortality.
(08:13):
But it wouldn't be as high assay, you know, a dam that has,
you know, maybe some turbinesystem or a hydroelectric
Downrigger Dale (08:19):
Okay,
Cody Nagel (08:20):
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (08:21):
they, would take kind of a wild and then
Cody Nagel (08:24):
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (08:24):
end up in the milk there.
Cody Nagel (08:26):
Yep.
Yep.
They'll end up just, gettingreleased down into the Milk
River.
The only time that I've, thatI've physically seen uh, any
sort of fish kill through,through that dam system is like
early in the spring, like whenthere's still ice on the on the,
reservoir the, water's deep.
(08:48):
And there's kind of a barometricbarra that, that occurs where,
those fish get sucked down.
And, And the pressure is, whatends up being the mortality of
it, not necessarily the, tripthrough the dam,
Downrigger Dale (09:04):
And so when, you know, when we see a
whirlpool like that, I startgetting comments from, from
anglers, and I guess I kind of,and I love all of you that,
listen, don't get me wrong, butI kinda classify some of you
anglers as a glass is half full,some are, the glass is half
empty or completely empty.
(09:24):
And you know, some people say,oh, well that's gonna suck all
the fish out of Fresno.
We aren't gonna have any morefish in there.
And, And do they really have todo this?
And I think Steve, pretty muchanswered the question of do we
really have to do this?
I mean, They've gotta get waterdown for so farmers can
irrigate.
(09:45):
You know, We just don't havemuch water coming into the, the
Milk River from the St.
Mary's siphon.
'cause that blew up.
Uh.
Well, A little less than a yearago.
And so yeah, you gotta do whatyou gotta do.
The farmers are, we gotta haveour crops.
Uh, In fact, they're, from whatSteve had said, they're probably
only gonna get water for aboutthe first cutting, and that's
(10:09):
gonna be about it just because,combine the drought and the St.
Mary's siphon issue.
And so tell us a bit about howyou feel the overall.
Health of the fish population isin Fresno, given the challenges
we got going on here.
Cody Nagel (10:29):
Yeah so, and that's a good question.
Um, you know, I think you almosthave to take a step back first
and just kinda see how thatreservoir has a historically.
Been managed water operationswise and kind of the age of that
reservoir.
The amount of sedimentation thathas occurred has occurred over
(10:49):
the last a hundred years.
You know, One, we're dealingwith a reservoir that's lost a
third of its storage capacity.
It's not as deep as it once waswhen it was previ, you know,
originally built.
But then on top of that.
On average that reservoirusually is drawn down about 20
plus feet every year.
(11:13):
And That usually occurs inAugust.
A little bit different scenariothis year, you know, it's down
about 30 feet right now.
Probably gonna lose anothercouple of feet yet before it's
all said and done.
But it's a little bit differentin that.
When, historically when, whenthese big drawdowns occur it,
happens in August or September,and then you have to go through
(11:35):
an entire winter under these lowpool elevations.
This year with, with that siphonbeing repaired and hopefully
water getting moved here.
In the next few weeks we'reactually gonna get to see, you
know, a refill of, some sort ofhappen through the summer into
the fall which will set thingsup going into next year better
(12:00):
than, than it has historically.
So I guess, you know, there is asilver lining in all of it.
But there, there, will beimpacts for sure.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (12:08):
And to deal with those impacts.
Have you guys had any plan?
Are you gonna do any kind ofextra stocking into that
reservoir?
Things like that.
Cody Nagel (12:18):
Yeah, so there is a plan.
We'll, see.
We're gonna watch and seeexactly where we end up with,
our pool elevations here in thenext couple weeks.
I will be having crews outthere.
We're gonna be wa uh, monitoringwater quality.
So dissolved oxygen levels, youknow, water temps is gonna be a
(12:39):
big thing.
During that timeframe here,where that.
Where that low water isoccurring.
But we're waiting for thatsupplemental water to show up
how long is that time periodgonna be and, and how hot is it
gonna get?
'cause that that could have, youknow, major impacts on the fish
that remain in the system.
I.
(13:00):
Probably gonna try to get outthere and do a little bit of
netting to see what, we havebefore the refill happens, and
then some additional netting andsurveys in September when, when
more water's in the system, justto kind of give us a baseline
of, where we're at movingforward from this year.
But yes, we do have plans on, ontrying to get some fish stocked.
(13:22):
Uh, We are looking to stock somewalleye here towards the end of
the month.
It's really gonna depend on uh,if our hatchery trucks can get
close to the water.
So that'll be a big thing.
But we also wanted to wait too,because we didn't wanna put any
stocked fish in there withoutflows being high and, and
(13:42):
we're just sending those fishright down the milk River.
Downrigger Dale (13:45):
Yeah.
Cody Nagel (13:46):
So that's, you know, and then, um.
we're also talking with mileCity Hatchery too to see, you
know, potentially if there'ssome surplus or leftover yellow
perch or black croppy so that wecan start to reestablish that
forage base.
Yet this year, you know, thosewould probably be stocked
(14:07):
sometime in late July, earlyAugust.
So you know, already, Alreadytrying to look to the future
and, and, and get thingsreestablished as quickly as
possible.
Downrigger Dale (14:16):
Great.
How about access with these lowwaters you just mentioned, can a
hatchery truck even get closeenough?
Things like that.
So for fishermen, are they ableto launch boats are campgrounds
or areas around uh, fishingaccess sites around Fresno and
well, I guess even the MilkRiver system.
(14:38):
What's that like right now andwhat do you foresee going
through the summer?
Cody Nagel (14:43):
Yeah.
I mean, The campgrounds are allgonna be open.
You can use them.
They're, you know, the access tothe water though might be
difficult.
You know, When the water doesget this low it, gets really
mucky down near the water.
You, You sink really quick.
But you can still get to it.
(15:03):
Boat access is gonna bedifficult though probably for
the next month and a half to twomonths until, until some of that
supplemental water hits thesystem and that refill begins.
But yeah, I would, I would sayaccess is gonna be marginal at
best here for the next couplemonths.
Downrigger Dale (15:22):
Yeah.
I, I, you know, I you know, asan angler you can give it a try.
But you know, There's gonna besome challenges, like you say,
you're gonna sink into softground, things like that.
You need to be pretty carefulwith those kind of things that,
so I guess overall may maybe, isit a better idea for anglers to
(15:42):
kinda.
Pick another spot for a month ortwo until things get stabilized.
Cody Nagel (15:48):
Yeah, that probably wouldn't be a bad idea, at least
on Fresno.
I think access on Nelson will beokay for the summer.
But yeah, Fresno Fresno's gonnabe a little, little more of a
challenge.
Downrigger Dale (16:02):
So let's talk a bit about Nelson.
So, Like you say, Nelson mighthave some effects there as far
as uh, some accessibilities andthat one thing that Steve
Darlington had brought up isNelson has a, as a bit of
advantage in that it kind of hasits own little, uh.
what did he call it?
(16:22):
Kind of a its own little areawhere that holds water within
the reservoir.
So, It might get through thisdrought uh, time and, and all
this water take down time alittle better.
Is that, would you concur withthat?
Cody Nagel (16:39):
Yeah.
I, you know, and, and, and Stevenailed it.
It, It kind of has a natural uh,conservation pool.
We'll, say where.
Yeah, Yep.
Where, you know, they just, howNelson lays out you know,
there's a, pretty significantamount of water that they, they
just can't get to just based onhow it's laid out.
(17:02):
You know, Another, you know,again, another silver lining
with some of these drought yearsis that it, it gives these
reservoirs a chance to establishsome really good terrestrial
vegetation up in that littoralzone, in those shallow water
areas.
So that, you know, it kind ofsets the stage when when the
water does come back there's, anenormous amount of, terrestrial
(17:26):
vegetation that gets inundatedwith that water, which just
makes a huge boost to the entirewater system in that fish
community.
You'll see big better spawninghabitat.
And, And this trophic upsurge,you know, macrophytes
zooplankton and you get thisbaseline established for young
(17:47):
fish, which leads to bettergrowth rates and a better
overall fish community in thelong run.
Downrigger Dale (17:54):
Okay.
So like you say, there are a fewsilver linings around this.
How about the, the milk riverarea for, for the area of, of
the Milk River that you'recovering, that, that basin there
how is it holding up with thethe challenges of drought and
the, the whole ma St.
Mary's siphon issue and that,tell us about that.
Cody Nagel (18:17):
Yeah, so the, milk river, you almost gotta like,
break it up into a coupledifferent sections.
There's a, lot of low head damsand weirs.
You know, Fresno is an Onstreamdam.
I.
Um, where, Where when you movedown to Nelson, it's kind of off
stream.
It's not on the Milk River.
It's, kind of off and, gets fedthrough a canal system.
(18:39):
That's where that getssupplemented.
But you know, below Fresno Dam,we still have a lot of major
tributaries coming out of.
The Bear Paw Mountains out ofSouthern Alberta, Southern
Saskatchewan, that are gonna,you know, maintain flows below
Fresno Dam through the summer.
So I'm not too concerned aboutthat, you know, that that's
(19:00):
actually a pretty good fisherybelow Fresno Dam you're looking
at.
High densities of walleye,Northern pike small mouth bass.
And then as you move downthrough Dodson and into, into
Malta, you know, then you startrunning into like a catfish
fishery and a bunch of otherspecies that, that come out of
the Missouri River up into themilk.
(19:22):
You know, The one section of theMilk River that.
That we've been keeping a reallyclose eye on is that stretch
upstream of Fresno, that reallyrelies on that supplemental
water and mother nature.
And, And we just, you know, lastyear that section of river
essentially went dry and, andthat, river's made up of a lot
of native species um, long nosesuckers, flathead chubs.
(19:46):
So bur, and, you know, it justto see that completely dry it,
was, tough to see and there wassome fish kills that, that
occurred up in there.
So hopefully some of those fishdid find some refuge around Milk
River, Alberta and some poolhabitats or something to, keep
that, that date of species.
(20:07):
Population thriving, movingforward.
Downrigger Dale (20:12):
Well, And I guess that's one of the things
we forget is, you know, fisharen't stupid.
When they sense levels goingdown they kind of naturally seek
out where.
To go next, right?
Cody Nagel (20:25):
Yep.
Yep, they do.
And again it, it habitat's superimportant, whether it's on a, a
reservoir system, a naturallake, or a river.
And those, pool habitats becomereally important.
Um, And if you don't have those,those fish have nowhere to go.
They just end up on a drysandbar.
Downrigger Dale (20:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Then uh, the critters aroundthe, area, they get a, a free
lunch as.
Cody Nagel (20:54):
The, birds and raccoons eat, eat really well
for a few weeks.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (20:59):
Um, So overall you know, looking at, and before
we move off of like Fresno andNelson a bit,'cause Nelson's for
anglers is an importantreservoir in that often it kind
of becomes, you know, one, it isa destination reservoir for a
lot of anglers.
It, It is good fishing.
(21:19):
And this year from the reportsthat I've got back from anglers
uh, the, fishing's been prettydarn good on Nelson.
And then for anglers that reallylove to, to spend most of their
time on Fort P when when thewind happens and they get blown
off of there, Nelson becomes areal, option for a lot of
(21:40):
anglers and they'll head there,especially seeking wildlife.
How do you feel, Nelson,overall, that the health of that
fishery is and, and how wellwill that maintain through the
summer, do you feel?
Cody Nagel (21:53):
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (21:54):
An educated guess, but.
Cody Nagel (21:56):
Yeah.
No, Nelson's Nelson's aphenomenal fishery.
Yeah I, call it a four seasonfishery.
I mean, you can, You can it,fishes really well in the
wintertime.
It fishes well in the spring,summer, fall.
It's a multi-species fishery.
I mean, People love the targetwalleye there.
(22:16):
But there's a really good pikepopulation in there.
Really good perch population.
And, you know, we're starting tosee a, a growing small mouth
bass population as well.
So, Yeah it, it is, it's truly aphenomenal year round.
Downrigger Dale (22:34):
Yeah you know, I, I know that that was a big
concern with, with some of ouranglers that send me emails on a
regular basis and, and they'relike, oh well, is Nelson gonna
be okay?
And, And so that's good to hearthat.
You know, It's, it shouldmaintain.
And I know the good thing is youand bureau of Reclamation and
(22:56):
all that, everyone's beenkeeping a close eye on this.
And you know, I know that uh youknow, Steve had, you know, tried
his best to assure us, you know,they're doing everything they
can to, try to keep everythinggoing.
Of course, their.
is for what these reservoirswere created for, which is
irrigation in that, but they dostill try to keep an eye on the,
(23:21):
the wildlife.
And you guys, do you guyscoordinate with them quite often
as far as, for the fish fisheryside of it?
And, that, I know they kind ofget pulled both ways, but.
Cody Nagel (23:32):
Yeah, no you, you bring up a good point and, and
you know, kind of like you saidthere's, designations and
purposes for, for that waterright now.
And, reclamation and, and eventhe, the irrigators um, across
the, the high line.
I mean, they, They care aboutthe recreation.
(23:55):
When you run into a situationlike we've been in here
recently, I think Reclamation'sdone a really good job of
keeping us informed on what theplan is gonna be, what the water
levels are gonna look like, andit's given us an opportunity to
plan ahead and be prepared sothat we can do our job and, and
get these fisheriesreestablished and rebounded as,
(24:17):
as quickly as we can.
Yeah it's, been a, it's been agood relationship.
Downrigger Dale (24:22):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
That's good to hear.
We're gonna take a quick break.
I wanted to get a chance to, uh,talk a little bit about one of
our sponsors who um, has justbeen fantastic.
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Downrigger Dale (26:59):
we are back here on the Montana Outdoor
Podcast.
Um, Cody Nagle is my guest, andwe're talking about the uh, milk
River Basin, talking aboutFresno and, and of course
Nelson.
And that I wanna shift gears alittle bit, Cody, and talk
about.
Paddlefish the, fisheriesbiologist, you know, you, guys
(27:23):
have to kind of be multifacetedand that you deal with
everything from the tiny littlemicroscopic stuff that fish feed
on all the way to these greatbig, huge paddlefish, which
amazes me in the Missouri River.
You, you, as I mentioned before,your main.
Area is from Fort Peck Damupstream.
(27:47):
Now that season got underway,May 1st and ends June 15th,
correct?
I.
Cody Nagel (27:54):
Yep, you're right.
Downrigger Dale (27:55):
Okay.
Now uh, there were a whole bunchof rule changes and, and I think
we have covered those.
Hopefully those of you thatwanna send me emails, by all
means do, and I'll get the, yourquestions answered and we will.
Try to get another update onanything from what you email me,
(28:18):
everyone and, I'll try to makesure we get those answered.
But from your perspective you,don't really get so much into
the rule side of it, but whatwas the reason for the, the
major rule changes as far aswhat you were explaining?
Cody Nagel (28:38):
Yeah.
So again, I think we gotta justtake a step back when it just
comes to Paddlefish um, and thenas a species, and then as a
recreational opportunity, andthen kind of how the, the
Montana FWP approach has beenwith that species for many, many
years now.
There's been several rulechanges and regulation changes
(28:59):
even since I showed up in 2008,whether it's changes to season
structure.
Um Limits on, on gaff use.
We went to snag and releasedfish now have to stay partially
submerged into the water.
We've kind of changed how our,our, how our harvest and and
(29:21):
season structures wanna bebanished between the yellow tag
on the Yellowstone um, and thewhite tag on the Missouri River.
Where, I oversee.
And then, you know, we've addeda new green tag below Fort Peck
gam.
Now that kind of coincides withthe yellow tag in terms of
harvest.
You know, And a lot of that justcomes back to a long lived
(29:44):
species and iconic big rivernative fish that, that anglers
can still enjoy.
And trying to balancesustainability of that
population moving forward.
Giving given, you know, some ofthe challenges that they have
just in terms of reproductionand, and all these other
(30:04):
requirements that need to be metfor them to thrive while also
allowing anglers the ability togo out there and enjoy'em.
Whether that's to harvest afish, the opportunity to harvest
Fish, or the opportunity to goout there and snag and release a
paddle fish.
Downrigger Dale (30:18):
Yeah.
Cody Nagel (30:19):
You know, So that's the balance and, and a lot of
our regulations and rules centeraround that, you know, how do we
sustain this, this iconic fishwhile also allowing public
opportunity.
Downrigger Dale (30:34):
Yeah.
And I know that that has to be,you know, a bit of a juggling
act in that the paddle fish and,and we'll, we'll get into some
of more of the characteristicsin a minute.
But, you know, they, they've hadsome challenges and that, you
know, they.
When God put'em in there, they,there weren't dams, there
weren't a lot of those things.
(30:55):
So there, there's some of thosechallenges that you've had to
deal with.
But I know one of like, one ofthe emails I got from from one
of our listeners said geez,those things the, regulations
got so confusing.
It's almost like they wanted toconfuse us.
Now, obviously that was not theintent, how what, what have you
(31:15):
heard as far as uh, theconversations around the area
have, have.
Anglers kind of adopted to this.
Are they figuring it out?
Cody Nagel (31:24):
Yeah, no, they are figuring it out.
And, you know, when we doregulation changes and stuff, I
mean, we do, we try our best to,to make sure there's some
consistency between the, the,the different snag fisheries and
populations.
But at the same time, there'salso, I.
Certain circumstances where, youknow, what might work on the
(31:45):
Missouri River above Fort Packdoesn't work for the
Yellowstone.
So, you know, There might be alittle bit of deviation from
time to time, but, our intent isnever to make things more
complicated.
If, If nothing else, we'retrying to make it easier and
more and understandable.
Um, So people can just go outthere and enjoy.
(32:06):
The opportunity rather thanworrying about all the
regulations, but um, sometimesthat's hard to balance.
Downrigger Dale (32:13):
Yeah.
But on the other side, this kindof.
Emphasizes the fact that whenyou're asked for public comment.
Give that comment because I knowfor a fact you guys rely heavily
on that from what anglers aretelling you and what they're
experiencing and trying to setsome of those plans.
(32:33):
So, I really have, and I know Ibeat this drum really hard on
this podcast, but I just can'tstress it enough that, you know,
when you get an opportunity asanglers,'cause you know, I'm not
discounting uh, your frustrationat all and.
I won't lie.
Sometimes I get frustrated withchanges, you know, we all get
territorial and that's my areaand I was used to doing it this
(32:56):
way, and so I, I hear you.
But things gotta change to makesure we, we keep that balance.
So just remember folks whenthey're saying, Hey we, we want
this uh, this input on, youknow, this change or ideas or
thoughts.
They're not saying that.
to say it because they have to,they're saying it'cause they
(33:16):
really wanna know.
I know that you, I'm sure getcomments in that those are
helpful to you, right?
Cody Nagel (33:24):
Yeah, no, for sure.
And you hit the nail on the headright there.
During the last regulation cyclewe did, we allowed.
The public, the opportunity tomake proposals to the department
on, on certain regulations.
And I believe at least two ofthose paddlefish regulations
stemmed from public comment andthey were actually submitted as
(33:47):
public proposals.
FWP looked them over and, and,and said, yes, these make sense
both biologically and, wecarried'em moving forward.
And they were, they were movedby the public.
Yep.
Downrigger Dale (34:04):
Overall, how has the paddlefish season gone
and do you have an idea as faras where you're at quota wise
for your area?
Cody Nagel (34:12):
Yeah.
The Paddlefish Sea season hasit, it's been Okay.
You know, The one thing that wereally ran into, at least on
the, on the Upper Missouri Riverthis year is, is.
We kind of came in with some lowflows which, which kept the fish
down near the headwaters of FortPeck and, and they didn't come
up the river until about thesecond week of the season.
(34:34):
And then flows, flows jumped alittle bit to about 10, 11,000
CFS, which usually gets the fishup around the Fred Robinson
Bridge area.
Um.
Then the, the flows kind of justwent flat rate at that time,
about the third week of May.
Um, And anglers did they, didreally good for about a three,
four week period there.
(34:55):
And now we're starting to seeflows go back down again.
I think we're right around 7,000CFS.
Historically, at this time ofyear we're, we're around 20,000
CFS.
So, you know, In terms of asnagging season, it, I would
call it a, a fair year.
But in terms of like, um, theflows we'd like to see for
(35:17):
spawning success and things likethat for the fish it, it, it
hasn't been a good one.
But yeah.
And then when it comes to theharvest cap we do have a harvest
cap on the, on the upperMissouri River.
You know, We're trying toharvest or see, a mortality of
a, of no more than 500 paddlefish each year.
(35:39):
I.
How we do it a little bitdifferently though on the upper
Missouri River is we do itthrough a lottery tag system.
So every year we send out youknow, a thousand people are put
in for that, that tag.
And we, give out a thousandharvest tags but we don't close
the season down.
If you drew a harvest tag, youget to go and, and, and try to
(36:01):
harvest a fish, but we try tokeep that running average below
500 and, we've been Able to dothat and that's.
We've been under that system nowsince 2016, and it's been
working really well.
Downrigger Dale (36:13):
And do you know how many have been harvested so
far then?
Cody Nagel (36:17):
So on average, we're we, usually, it's, it is
typically somewhere between 375and 475 fish is, is what we
typically get for a harvest,
Downrigger Dale (36:30):
I wish all the, those that uh, have a tag for
that area good luck and, and byall means, be sure and send us
pictures.
I, I love to be able to showpictures on future podcasts and
of course we love to post'em onMontana outdoor.com.
So you know, uh, Send us thosepictures'cause those are
awesome.
Now when, uh.
(36:52):
anglers decide to make the trip.
And, And uh, talked to Anglers,of course, all across the state
of Montana and, and even inWyoming.
And, that I also do some, uh,broadcasts for areas of Wyoming
and the Dakotas and that, and.
They will travel all the way upthere.
People come from all over.
(37:13):
That's a, that's an iconicthing.
You get that tag you and you'relike, all right, here I go and,
then you, you get skunked andyou're like, dang, you know, I
spent all that time and money.
What would you say are, are someof the most common mistakes that
us anglers make?
That caused us to get skunkedgoing after those big paddle
fish.
Cody Nagel (37:33):
Yeah.
Um, So the main thing withPaddlefish is just understanding
the areas where those fish aregonna be in, in terms of
relation to flows.
When we don't have really goodflows, it keeps the fish.
In downstream locations.
(37:53):
Sometimes they're just hard tobe, you know, the accessibility
to'em is, is difficult justbecause they're in some really
remote areas.
Um, And then just trying to timeup the flows with some of those
access areas along the MissouriRiver.
I mean That's the, that'sprobably the biggest thing is
just being where the fish are.
(38:14):
It's, you know, especially ifyou don't have a boat or
something like that.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (38:18):
Yeah.
It uh, it, can be a challenge,but it it's sorta an exciting
thing when you can land a, afish like that and see'em they
are a fascinating fish to me.
How, long have they actuallybeen in the, Missouri River?
Cody Nagel (38:41):
I, I, I would say they've been in the Missouri
River of almost as long as theMissouri River's been around.
You know, They have fossilrecords that date back, millions
of years.
I've seen the number fluctuatefrom 70 to over 150 million
years.
They've been around you know,the.
It's probably the biggest uniquething about that Paddle fish
(39:04):
stock above Fort P is, to myknowledge, it's the farthest
north and westerly population inthe United States.
So And it's an isolatedpopulation so, if what's there
is there we don't, get fishcoming in from, from other
rivers or sections.
It's an isolated population.
(39:26):
You know, The other thing that'sreally cool about that Fort Peck
stock is it's completely wild.
We've never stocked Paddlefish.
Downrigger Dale (39:35):
Oh, really?
I didn't know that.
Oh.
Cody Nagel (39:38):
in Fort Peck.
Nope.
That is a completely wild stock.
And, we wanna continue to manageit that way.
You know, That long termsustainability on a, on a wild
stock of fish,
Downrigger Dale (39:52):
Okay.
All right.
I wanna take one more quickbreak here.
And we're gonna chat a littlebit
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Downrigger Dale (42:25):
Back here on the Montana Outdoor Podcast,
Cody Nagel and I have beentalking about all kinds of
things that go on there in theMilk River Basin and Missouri
and all that.
Before we get off that, thetopic of paddlefish, which like
I said, it's just such afascinating fish what, do you
find is as a biologist, of themore interesting things about
(42:48):
that, I guess kind of aprehistoric fish.
Cody Nagel (42:52):
Yeah.
You know, To me one of the, oneof the biggest things is, well
two, two things.
One how old they can live.
I mean, you know, every, Everyyear we ask anglers to I.
Voluntarily submit a section ofthe lower jaw on these fish
from, from the harvested fish.
Anyway.
(43:13):
Um, and, And you know, one, oneof the, you know, the biggest
component of that is to see kindof what the age structure of of
our, population is.
And what we're looking for thereis we wanna see young fish
coming into the system.
These fish don't sexually matureuntil they're, teenagers.
You know, Females don't, don'tbecome, um.
(43:35):
sexually mature till they'reabout 16, 17 years old.
Males about nine or 10.
Um, So we're looking at, youknow, how many young, young fish
are coming into our population,but you know, also, do we have
old fish in the system?
And, and, And every year we seea handful of fish that exceed 60
years old.
Last year we saw a fish that's72 years old and.
(44:00):
As a biologist right now, there,there's possibly some fish that
are gonna hatch this year andrecruit into the population.
And I am gonna be buried in theground.
And, And those fish are gonna beswimming, you know, 40, 50 years
from now.
I won't be here, but they willbe.
So that that's, one reallyinteresting thing about the
(44:21):
fish.
You know, The other is, youknow, you look at the Missouri
River and you're sitting therealong the bank and you're
watching all this turd muddywater coming by you and to, to
think here's all this water.
It looks like how would younotice a difference in a
thousand CFS one way or theother?
(44:41):
But these fish can detect that.
I mean, The slightest changesand flows will make these fish
migrate one way or the other.
If, the water's dropping alittle bit.
And they don't like it.
They'll, move back down riverif, there's a little bit of a
bump or a rise, they will shootup river.
They can travel 15 to 20 milesin a day.
(45:04):
It's just, it they're aphenomenal fish.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (45:08):
Wow.
And I, I guess, around thatlong, millions of years, they
got it figured out by now uh, I,I had no idea.
I mean, They're almost similarto people as far as how long
they live and and all thatstuff.
That's interesting.
I had no idea that, that, sothey, they gotta survive a long
(45:31):
time before they can evenproduce young then.
Cody Nagel (45:34):
Yeah.
You know, And that's one of thebig challenges, you know as a
biologist is, and again, whenwe're looking at.
The recreation component and,allowing folks that opportunity,
you know, we're balancing thelongevity of these fish.
They, They don't reproducesuccessfully every year.
I mean, They try to, but theyneed a lot of to align perfectly
(45:59):
to see, you know, good yearclasses produced.
And we have seen that a handfulof times in the last 15 years.
So it, you know, they're stillreproducing.
They're still doing okay.
But we're just we always keep aclose tab on, you know, what's,
what's being taken out forthrough harvest um, and other
mortality events.
And then what's coming inwhat's, what's the next year
(46:22):
class looking like?
What's the future look like?
Because that's really important.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (46:29):
It's, amazing.
It's, It's cool that we havethose fish so many people.
We, we have viewers andlisteners from all around the
world, that fish probably getsthe most response from people
that, that don't live nearMontana and even in live in
different countries that go,what in the hell is that thing
(46:52):
and how did it get in the river?
You know, it's just, It's justsuch a, a, a, unique thing and
different.
We're kinda lucky to have thatfish, aren't we?
Cody Nagel (47:04):
We are, you know, and you know, some of the
listeners that, have probably,you know, have handled or seen a
few of paddle fishes.
Yeah, no.
Two lookalike there is, a lot ofdifferences.
You'll, You'll see some reallydark black ones, you'll see
light ones, you'll see some withfreckles all over'em.
They're just, there's a lot ofcharacteristics from one fish to
(47:27):
the next.
So it's pretty cool.
I mean, you, you, You catch aperch and.
They all look the same
Downrigger Dale (47:35):
the first.
Cody Nagel (47:36):
for the most part.
But, these paddlefish yeahthey're unique for sure.
Downrigger Dale (47:42):
Wow.
One of the things before we go,I wanted to touch on you know,
we talked a bit about the, MilkRiver and your area and that,
but I, I wanted to, get a littlemore information about that for
our anglers that may have neverthought about uh, you know, fish
in the milk.
I like that area.
(48:03):
I, I do, I think it's, unique.
It's a such a fascinating river.
A lot of people don't realizethat's the second longest river
in Montana.
A lot of people don't know thatone.
Uh, Missouri, of course, beingthe longest what.
Area where, would be the bestspot for anglers to, to have
(48:26):
luck.
If they say well, I don't carewhat a catch.
I just wanna go catch somethingand then talk a bit about all
the different species that theycan find in that river.
Cody Nagel (48:35):
Yeah, so your, best angling opportunities are, are
probably gonna be from FresnoDam.
Downstream um, to the confluenceof the Missouri River.
We do have several fishingaccess sites along the Milk
River.
The tail waters FAS below FresnoDam there's a wildlife
(48:58):
management area that you canaccess uh, right around the
haver area.
There's a fishing access site inMalta.
So you, you know, anglers willhave to do a little bit of
research.
A lot of the land is private.
But, you know, stream access lawdoes apply, you know, so if
you're willing to wade you can,fish different stretches of the
river.
(49:19):
You know, I Would say thoseupstream areas around Fresno
Dam, down through Harlem you'reprimarily looking to catch
probably, you know, pike walleyesmall mouth bass.
But as you move downstream you,you can run into a lot more
different species, catfishpossibly soer maybe some
(49:40):
bourbon.
But you're looking at likebuffalo species goldey drum.
You just never know what mightbe on the end of your line once
you get past Malta on the MilkRiver.
But yeah it's, a really, it'skind of a hidden gem, you know?
I think some of the accessdifficulties um, intimidate a
(50:02):
few people, but if you'rewilling to put in the time and
just kinda see like, Hey, wherecan I legally access it?
Um, And you can find a couple ofpools and holes and, some good
areas you can have a lot ofsuccess on it.
Downrigger Dale (50:14):
Yeah.
One of the, my favorite areas,you know, going up from the dam
on the Missouri, when you hitthat confluence, you can go up
into, you know, by boat into themilk a little ways and where
that kind of all comes togetherand then going on up, that can
be some really good walleyefishing at times really good.
(50:35):
So that, that's a fun place togo.
Yeah.
So I, I encourage you todiscover this river and, and,
don't give up because of thesechallenges, because those, those
are getting taken care of.
In fact I'm, still amazed at howquickly they've moved to repair
(50:56):
that St.
Mary's siphon and the thingsthat they're doing.
Do you uh, see any kind ofchallenges that may happen?
When they are able to turn thatback on and get the flow going,
is that gonna confuse fish atall?
Or what do you think is gonnahappen with all that?
Cody Nagel (51:17):
Yeah.
Um, No I, don't see, I don't seeany impacts with that being
reopening and that water makingit back, back down uh, into
Fresno and, and eventually intothe milk.
Um.
You know, Again it, it justseems like the, long-term
challenges is always gonna be alimited amount of water that can
(51:41):
get carried through the system.
And, you know, just in my timeup here as the fish biologist.
We, whether you're an irrigator,a municipality user an angler or
a fish like it is so important.
Every year we, we, all sit hereand watch the weather, you know,
(52:02):
are you gonna get that timelyrain in May or June?
If you get it.
That can, may have hugeramifications for what your
water conditions are gonna befor the rest of the summer.
If you don't get it, you know,everybody's scrambling going,
okay, now what do we do with thelimited amount of water, you
know, to go around to everybody.
So that's gonna continue to be achallenge.
(52:24):
Um.
Moving forward and, and youknow, again like, communicating
with reclamation and, and someof these irrigation districts
um, those are gonna continue sothat we're, you know, we can
manage these fisheries the bestas we possibly can.
You know, I, I'd also just liketo say like, when it comes to
Fresno, it's gonna be hard tosay right now what the impacts
(52:47):
are gonna look like.
But again I'm, I'm trying tofind silver linings here.
You know, Fresno is really goodat growing fish fast.
Um, even if we have a majorsetback, if we can get, whether
it's natural reproduction nextspring with some stocking
efforts, by two or three years,we can have a, a.
(53:09):
A Fresno walleye is about 15, 16inches.
Downrigger Dale (53:13):
Really.
Cody Nagel (53:14):
yes.
Yeah, so that's a silver lining.
I mean I don't foresee impactsas long as we have decent water
conditions moving forward, youknow, I don't see the impacts
lasting 5, 10, 15 years.
Um, you know, I think it'll bequick.
And, And hopefully folks willget back out to Fresno because
(53:34):
it is it's, it's when, when,everything's going well out
there, it is a phenomenal.
Walleye fishery.
I mean it.
It is a walleye factory for 14to 20 inch walleye.
It is a great place to go.
Downrigger Dale (53:49):
I encourage everyone to to utilize these
areas.
You know, A lot of times we getfocused on the big water but
there's a lot to discover.
Out there for sure.
Cody, I wanna thank you verymuch for the time you've taken
here today and you know, I knowyou're busy, but this is
important for, us.
(54:10):
Just as you know, us anglerslove to have access to water.
We love to have access to thebiologists and that and learn
more about where we're fishing.
One last question I did have, itseems to be in, in.
M maybe I'm just hearing moreabout it or that, but it just
seems like mouth bass seems tobe kind of on the rise these
(54:31):
days.
I hear more and more people onFort Peck, that, that are
finding them uh, really startingto have a lot of fun with that
fish.
They are a fun fish to to catchand to deal with.
Are the small mouth bassnumbers, are they increasing or
are we just talking more about'em these days?
Cody Nagel (54:54):
Yeah.
Um, you know, Like they areincreasing, they're, starting to
get distributed.
I'll, I'll just say that, youknow, and, and, and they're.
They're, a species that canthrive in a lot of different
environments.
They can thrive in a lakeenvironment.
They can thrive in a reservoirenvironment, and we're coming to
(55:15):
find they can thrive in our coolwater rivers.
It's hard to say right now, likewhat the long-term impacts will
be, if any.
But, you know, anytime a newspecies starts to thrive.
Whether, you know, it's, it's a,a fish we like to target or not,
you know, there, there could besome ramifications for other
(55:38):
species but
Downrigger Dale (55:39):
Yeah.
Cody Nagel (55:40):
I know a lot of the folks out in the field in my
position are monitoring thesepopulations, trying to keep
track of'em and I guess as froman angler's perspective go out
and enjoy'em, I guess, you know,they're, they're, here.
I mean, it, It's hard to, it'shard to, hard to get rid of fish
once they start to establishand, and we're finding these
(56:02):
small mouth bass they cannaturally reproduce in a lot of
different environments and, andthey're doing good in'em Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (56:10):
And they might blend a little in a little
better in tho the, your areasand that I know.
Over west of the divide in theMissoula area, bitter Valley
area, they have found some uh,smallies in the Bitter River,
and that be a prettycatastrophic effect because that
(56:35):
fish could, dominate that riverpretty quickly.
And so they, they, have askedanglers to make sure and, and do
not throw any of those back.
Make sure they, they areremoved, but, uh.
Cody Nagel (56:48):
yeah, no, I would, I would say though like, I mean
just looking at another speciesthat we're starting to learn
more about, at least in ourPrairie Stream system, so like
some of these small streams thatconnect to the Milk River is.
Pike do really well in, in thesesystems, you know, so they'll
run up these little tributariesand reproduce and, and then, you
(57:09):
know, you get small pike that,that thrive in these small
prairie systems.
Um, And they're, they're toosmall for anglers to really
target or prefer, I mean, we'retalking like eight to 15 inch
pike, but those pike are bigenough to, to really do some
damage to our, you know, ournative mineral populations that.
(57:29):
That thrive in those prairiesystems that that feed the forge
base to the milk river.
Yeah.
Downrigger Dale (57:35):
Yeah it's, a never ending deal for you guys.
You're like referee trying toall these fish to deal with each
other, andrs and.
You guys are doing a good job,and we, we certainly appreciate
all you've done for us.
I'm gonna put your email in theum, podcast description, so if
(58:00):
listeners do have some, somequestions for you, hopefully
you'll get time to uh.
get back to'em if they do.
And of course, all of youlistening, you're more than
happy to, you're more thanwelcome, brother, to get back to
me and, and I'll track downanswers for you as as much as I
can, as I always do.
And, And I enjoy doing that.
So be sure and send me those,those emails.
(58:21):
Send me those pictures and letus know what else you wanna know
about this area that uh, Cody'sbeen telling us about.
And, uh, that way when uh, wehave him on again down the road,
uh.
We can answer some of thosequestions for you after you,
you've listened and watched thispodcast.
Anything else before we go,Cody, that you'd like to, we
outta here.
Cody Nagel (58:42):
No I, I appreciate the opportunity.
Yeah, and if anybody has anyquestions or you know, feel free
to email me.
I will, I will get back to youat some point so, yes.
Yep.
Downrigger Dale (58:53):
All right.
Be careful out there in Fresno.
I'll stay away from thatWhirlpool.
Now, I told everybody, don't getyour boat near that thing.
That could be interesting.
Anyway, Cody, thanks so much.
Uh, Thanks for all you do and,and we'll see you next time uh,
when we uh, visit your area.
PC Close Manny Only (59:13):
Thanks for listening to the Montana Outdoor
Podcast.
It has been brought to you inpart by Superior Hardwoods of
Montana, home of the largestselection of in stock, high end
wood products and flooring inthe western United States.
Let them guide you throughtheWoods@superior-hardwoods.com
and by Rocky Mountain Truck andTrailer in Missoula, home of
(59:34):
boss snowplows, cm, truck bedsand diamond sea trailers.
Just go to RMTT e.com for moreinformation.
So what did you think of today'spodcast?
Send your questions and commentsto down
rigger@montanaoutdoor.com.
We should be dropping a newpodcast this next Saturday.
(59:54):
Until then, we will see you soonout in Montana's Great outdoors.
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