July 27, 2023 • 59 mins
Emmy award-winning writer and producer Brett Baer was only 24 when he got the opportunity to audition for the Universal Studios stunt show. Inexperienced and terrified, Brett invoked his time at Deerfield High School, where his attempt to change the narrative of his bullying instilled in him a sense of control. Little did he know that a CNN crew would arrive at the worst possible time and capture one of the most memorable flops of his career.
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Episode Transcript
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Max Chopovsky (00:02):
This is Moral of the Story Interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, max Dripofsky.
Today's guest is Brett Baer, anEmmy Award-winning producer and
writer that has worked on showslike New Girl, 30 Rock, united
States of Terra, joey and more.
Growing up in Deerfield,illinois, brett was so
(00:25):
captivated by television heconverted his parents' basement
into the Hollywood of theMidwest, deconstructing
cardboard boxes to recreate theswamp from mash, the studio set
from Letterman and otherclassics of the day.
And while other kids playedwith Legos, he bribed his sister
and neighbors with Twizzlers tobe his on-air talent.
Fast forward to the early 90swhen Brett decided that the
(00:48):
entertainment industry wasfinally ready, moving to LA to
attend the University of SouthCalifornia's School of Cinema
Television.
After dazzling his classmatesat the Groundlings Sunday
Company, he joined Acme ComedyTheatre, the legendary sketch
group, where he would meet hiswriting partner, dave Finkel.
Moving on to take the world ofanimation by storm, brett wrote
(01:09):
for the Animaniacs and Pinky andthe Brain, earning him a
daytime Emmy nomination for someof the wittiest dialogue.
This Side of Family Guy.
Brett knew that he was destinedfor primetime, however, and
soon made his move to Norm,joining the ABC sitcom as a
story editor.
Stints on Just Shoot Me andHappy Family followed and in
(01:30):
2007, finally vindicated, brettwon the outstanding comedy
series Emmy for 30 Rock, whichhe co-executive produced.
Not satisfied with just oneaward, he took home another Emmy
for his work on the UnitedStates of Terra.
Finally, that mere nominationfor Pinky and the Brain was a
scar healed.
Along with his partner, dave,brett went on to create the hit
(01:53):
series New Girl and, morerecently, bad Sisters, a binge
watchable show now streaming onApple TV+.
Brett isn't just the writer,mind you.
An avid reader with a seeminglyeffortless understanding of
world events, brett enjoys ahealthy discourse on the
intricacies and nuances ofgeopolitical relationships and
offers a balanced view to thosewho seek it.
(02:15):
A fanatical White Sox fan,brett has an iron grip on all
team stats and trivia, and whenit comes to playing he prefers
pickleball, crushing hisopponents likely while regaling
them with the news of the day.
But if you think he's a boringmiddle-aged suburban dad with a
proclivity for watching baseballfrom the living room, lazy boy,
(02:36):
just tell him you're in a hurryto get to the other side of LA,
with an intimate knowledge ofevery artery leading into and
out of the city, brett willproceed to transform into Mad
Max and get you to yourdestination on time, even if you
soil yourself in the process.
And so, a man of many talents,of contradictions embodied in
(02:56):
aspirations achieved.
Brett Bear, welcome to the show.
Brett Baer (03:00):
Oh my God, where did you come up with all of that?
I mean, honestly, I knowexactly where you got it because
I can tell the writing is mypartner, dave Finkel.
He gave you some of that, I'msure.
Oh my God, that's insane.
Max Chopovsky (03:12):
I actually wrote the whole thing myself.
Brett Baer (03:14):
Did you really?
Well, now I'm nervous.
I mean, I can't live up to that.
I wish I was a little drunk.
Max Chopovsky (03:19):
Well, here's the thing.
You don't have to live up toany of it, you've already lived
up to it all.
Brett Baer (03:24):
Oh, I guess that's true technically.
Max Chopovsky (03:27):
Here step ahead of me.
So set the stage.
Is there anything we shouldknow about the story before we
get into it?
Brett Baer (03:38):
Yeah, yeah, I'll give you a little background
real quickly.
You kind of mentioned I grew upin Deerfield, illinois, which
is on the North Shore of Chicago, which I know, max, you know
very well, but for those whodon't, it's the area of the
planet where John Hughes madeall of his movies, right,
breakfast Club, home Alone,risky Business was shot there,
which I was actually in.
I had one line in RiskyBusiness, but that's a different
(04:00):
story, and it's not, you know,admittedly, the toughest part of
town.
It's not the inner city, butthe school I went to had some
very rough kids in it, becausethere were a lot of my
classmates who were the childrenof some very tough people who
were connected to, let's justsay, the Chicago Syndicate, you
know.
So every recess was a littlebit like the Sopranos.
(04:22):
I mean, it was like they wereliterally cracking yardsticks
over each other's heads orcomparing their breastknuckles
with each other under the junglegym.
One kid, tragically his father,went missing and then was found
in several dumpsters around thecity, and you know, that was
like.
So, even though it was justlike John Hughes World, it was
like directed by Marty Scorsese,you know.
(04:44):
I tell you all that to tell youthat I was not like.
I was not one of these tough,rough kids.
I was a slight boy.
I was not the most masculinekid and I was, you know, a bit
of a pixie.
I enjoyed dancing and dressingup in costumes and putting on
shows in my basement and thesetough kids would play games like
and I don't know if you can saythis, but I'll say it anyway
called Smear the Queer, whichI'm just reporting the facts.
(05:07):
That was what the game wascalled, smear the Queer, and you
can only guess who they wantedto smear.
It was me, you know.
So I got beat up a lot, I gotmade fun of a lot, I was bullied
very hard and one day I justkind of lost it.
I couldn't take it anymore andit led me to stand up for myself
eventually and, I believe, alsoled me to one day leap three
(05:28):
stories, almost killing myselfin the process, live on CNN.
Well, I mean, it wasn't, itwasn't live, it was, I almost
wasn't live, but anyway, that'swhere sort of the setup for the
story.
Max Chopovsky (05:40):
Oh my God.
First of all, little did I knowthat some of the meanest
gangsters of Chicago got theirstart on the main streets of
Deerfield.
Brett Baer (05:51):
Yeah, Well, it's actually.
There's a little incorporatedarea next to Deerfield called
Riverwoods where it's verySopranos like and you know,
beautiful big homes, secludedand Floods a lot.
Yeah, so they had a littlefacility and their father would
answer and it would be like 5643and you'd be like, instead of
hello me, five, five, six, four,three.
Okay, am I supposed to place abet?
(06:15):
Can Andy come out and play?
You know that kind of thing.
So yeah, you know, and the kidscould be nice on occasion.
I'm sure some of this is justmy perception as a boy was beat
up all the time, but it feltoddly rough and violent
considering that it was, youknow, it was dear filled.
Max Chopovsky (06:32):
Yeah, I love it.
Into it.
Tell me a story.
Brett Baer (06:36):
All right, I'll tell you a story.
So everything I just told you.
You know, like I said, one day,I just I couldn't take the
bullying anymore and I decided Iwas going to stand up for
myself.
And I, I said to myself, youknow what, no matter what
happens, you're going to fightback.
You are going to just take thehardest take you can, you're
going to jump in there, you'regoing to fist, fly, kick,
(06:56):
whatever you have to do.
And sure enough, you know, Igot picked on one day and I just
I went for it and I lost badly.
I got the shit beaten out of me, as I always did.
But this time was different,because this time I refused to
show any pain whatsoever.
I was like I'm not going to letthem see me hurt.
And every time I got punched inthe face I would just smile.
(07:20):
And then, when the kid was donekicking the crap out of me, I
got up, I brushed myself off andI just walked away and the pain
in my face was so much lessthan the joy in my heart that
this kid felt so impotent.
It was so frustrated that hedidn't hurt me.
And I realized something thatthat might be my survival
(07:41):
technique that could be mycoping mechanism.
So I taught myself to actuallysuppress the pain and I decided
I would dictate these eventsmyself and I started challenging
these tough kids to do whateverthe fuck they wanted to me.
Let them punch me in thestomach as hard as they could,
or kick me down the slide orthrow me down the stairs, and I
(08:02):
would just take it like a ragdoll.
And I actually trained myselfto just absorb all this pain and
a funny thing happened, whichwas they stopped picking on me.
They were just more interestedin like having fun throwing the
office stuff and I could take it.
And it hurt, believe me.
It hurt Like I had the bruisesand scars to prove it, but I
(08:23):
wasn't getting beaten up.
It was me in charge, or so Ithought.
So one day I used all thesetalents that I had developed,
these sick talents, combinedwith some gymnastic skills I had
and some acting comedy chopsthat I'm now using as a writer,
and I actually became a reallygood physical comedian and over
(08:44):
time I started earning money asa physical comic because I could
do this stuff and people wouldhire me to fall down and go
through walls and stuff, and Istudied like the masters, like
Buster Keaton, I studiedreligiously.
Mo Howard of the Three Stoogeswas a great knockabout comedian.
My favorite movie was Hooperstarring Bert Reynolds, which
was about the Hollywood'sgreatest stuntman, and that
(09:05):
became my favorite film of alltime and I watched it 300 times.
So when I was 24 years old I gotthe opportunity to audition for
the Universal Studios WesternStunt Show and I was like, oh my
God, this is my calling, likethis is what I think, this is my
future.
And I did great.
I sailed through the audition.
I was funny, it was fast, Icould pretend to throw a punch,
(09:28):
I could take a punch, I couldfall down, etc.
I could ride a horse.
And on the last day they saidto me OK, so tomorrow you're
going to come back and we'regoing to do high falls into an
airbag.
I was like, huh, high falls intoan airbag.
That I'd never done before.
I'd seen it.
I mean it's a magnificent thingto watch these guys do this
(09:52):
right, and we all see it in themovies and I always wanted to,
but I'd never done it before andI was like, well, what the fuck
do I do?
I mean high falls into anairbag.
I mean people die doing thisstuff.
I don't know if you, if youhaven't seen the movie Hooper.
There's this amazing high fallthat the stunt performer named
AJ Bakunas does, where he jumps230 feet.
It was a world record at thetime off of a helicopter into an
(10:14):
airbag, and it is a thing ofbeauty.
Later, that same year 1978, ajtried to re-produce the record
and he went through his airbagand died.
So I mean, it's dangerous.
And look, look, we were nevergoing to be jumping anywhere
close to that high.
But I didn't know how high wewere going to be jumping.
(10:34):
I had no idea.
So all night long I'm in apanic.
I'm like what the fuck do I do?
Like I can't do this, Ishouldn't do this, I really
shouldn't do this.
But when I left for theaudition that day, I looked
across the street as I wasgetting my car and I saw it like
a little two story roof and Isaid you know what, if it's that
high, I can do it Anythinghigher, I'm just going to have
to walk away.
So I get to this stunt campuswhere we're doing these we're
(10:56):
going to do these high fallauditions and I see the tower
for the high falls and I go.
Oh my God, it's exactly thesame height.
I said I could do this isfantastic.
So they gather us up in.
The stunt coordinator goes OK,ladies, ladies, you'll be
jumping from that tower.
And he points to the tower thatI was talking about just a
minute ago.
And then he goes man, you'll bejumping from that tower up
(11:19):
there and he points way over ourheads and there's a tower that
is so high over my head I didn'teven see it and I'm like, oh my
God, it was like three stories.
I mean, it was a big deal.
And I was like what do I do?
I can't go through with this.
But all of a sudden, that littlekid on the playground.
I looked around at all theseprofessional stuntmen that I was
(11:40):
going to be competing with hereand I was like that.
And they became the guys on theplayground and I was like I
have to, I have to come throughNow.
Look, the stuntmen were great.
They were very friendly people.
They were not the bullies, butin my mind I projected onto them
this was the playground.
Again, I was back on theplayground.
I had to go through with it.
So they gave us some auditionsI'm sorry, rehearsals for the
(12:01):
audition, I should say, beforewe actually had to do our
audition to do the high fall.
When it was my turn, I didn'tknow what I was doing.
I mean, there's a whole way ofdoing this, so you don't get
hurt.
I didn't know, I just knew whatI'd seen in movies.
And I had to climb up thislittle rickety ladder.
That was like swaying and Idon't know if I mentioned this,
but I'm afraid of heights.
So, yeah, that into theequation.
And I keep climbing, and I keepclimbing and I'm like where is
(12:23):
the top of this thing?
What am I doing?
And I get on this little tinyplatform that's about two feet
wide by four feet long.
It's a trapeze artist platformthat you like, you see in the
circus, you know those littleplatforms, that's what I'm
standing on right, and I'm like,well, here goes nothing.
And I do the fall.
Boom, I hit the bag in a flipand it goes well, well enough,
(12:45):
like I survived.
And I was like you know what?
That wasn't so bad.
And I gotta say it doesn't feelgood to land on an airbag.
It's not like jumping into amarshmallow.
It hurts, you know.
It's like smacking a waterballoon with the back of your
hand, you know, but I did it.
I got two more practice runsand I was feeling like you know
what, good enough, like therewere some people who were really
talented.
I was like I didn't even thinkI could do it.
(13:07):
I did it Three stories into thebag.
So now it's comes time for theactual audition.
They've got us all going, oneat a time, boom, boom, boom.
And all of a sudden I look overand a CNN camera crew has shown
up to I don't know why, butthey're tape, they're gonna
videotape this audition.
Like it's a human intereststory.
It's like don't you have aPersian Gulf War to cover?
Or something like that.
(13:28):
So when it's my turn to go andthey call my number, I start
walking over to that littleladder I told you about and all
of a sudden the CNN cameramansome big, dumb guy with a camera
on his shoulder he startsclimbing up the ladder in front
of me and I'm like what the fuckis he doing?
Anyway, I'm like, well, this ismy audition, I don't have it.
Nobody's saying you know, hey,don't go up there, dude.
So now the two of us are on theladder and it's swinging and
(13:50):
I'm like what was scary beforeis now ultra scary.
We get up on this tiny littleplatform I told you about.
He's standing behind meshooting over my shoulder as I'm
gonna do my fall and I'm likethis I really don't need.
I've only done this three timesin my life and it's all been in
the last two hours.
So this stunt coordinator whowas counting people down one,
(14:12):
two, three, one, two, three hedecides all of a sudden, now
he's on camera, stunty McGeeneeds to be funny.
So Stunty McGee starts doinglike a like some stupid Western
improv with me and I'm like, ohfuck.
So I start improv-ing back withhim because we're on camera,
got it, it's my audition, Igotta do it.
And he does one of those dumbjokes where he kind of goes like
he goes you wanna see my quickdraw, and then he doesn't move
and he goes there, you see it.
(14:34):
And I'm like that is thedumbest joke.
And then all of a sudden hegoes bang and I'm like, oh,
that's my cue.
Now I'm like I start going,like I got shot.
I kind of grab my chest and Igo back and I bump into the
camera guy and I'm like, ohright, I forgot he's up.
Oh, and at that moment I'malready going forward.
All of my mechanics are off, I'mtotally jacked up and I'm going
(14:58):
, but I'm like falling and I canremember that feeling of like,
oh, this isn't good.
And I over-rotated so that myfeet hit the bag first, which,
if you can imagine, pushing downon one side of a balloon, the
other side of the balloon comesup right.
So my feet hit the bag first.
The bag comes up from behind meand smacks me in the back of
(15:22):
the head like a Mack truckhitting me.
I'm telling you it was theworst pain I've ever felt.
It hurt hard and I can heareverybody go.
Oh, you know.
And then I don't remember muchbecause the whole world was
spinning, everything was ringing, people were climbing onto the
bag to pull me off and all of asudden Stunty McGee's in my face
(15:45):
making sure that I'm alive,that I'm okay, and the one thing
I can remember from this momentis from the look in his eye.
I was not getting this job.
And the next thing I know thewoman reporter from CNN is like
got a microphone in my face andI'm probably speaking nonsense
and gibberish.
I have no idea what's comingout of me.
So somewhere, probably inAtlanta, there's a tape of me
(16:08):
making a complete ass out ofmyself.
But I didn't die, and that is avictory in itself.
Max Chopovsky (16:15):
What a story.
Okay, I have so many questions.
You answered the first, whichis you don't have the tape.
I think that it's worthwhiletracking it down, because that
has to be incredible.
Brett Baer (16:31):
I think I'm too afraid to look at it.
But yeah, you're right, Ishould call somebody and say hey
, I just wondered, do you havethis piece together?
But I mean, it was not pretty,I did not look good and I got
hurt bad.
I think I was concussed, youknow.
Max Chopovsky (16:47):
Yeah, so did you end up getting it checked out?
Or was this back in the daywhen, like, you're fine, just
walk it off?
Brett Baer (16:52):
No, it was.
You're fine, just walk it off.
I swallowed the pain and Iswear on my life.
45 minutes later I was doinganother stunt for the audition
where we had to do one of thoseI think they call it like swing
for life, which is kind of likeone of those rip line kind of
things and you sweat, you knowyou come down a rip line, but
(17:14):
then there's a release on it andthen you drop into a bag.
That wasn't as high, but I willtell you.
The funny kicker to that storyis, while we were doing that it
wasn't me, but while we weredoing that the airbag would
inflate.
The airbag would inflate, butin the middle of doing it we had
an earthquake in Californiathat day which knocked out the
electricity and knocked out thegenerator on the airbag, and so,
(17:37):
as they were about to do astunt, the airbag started
deflating and a guy almost waslike mid-stunt when that
happened.
So again, like you know, I havesuch respect for these people.
I really love stunt people.
I've had the opportunity towork with a lot of them in my
career and I really appreciatethem and they do everything they
(17:58):
can to protect the safety ofthe people they're working with,
especially the great ones.
My next neighbor is a stuntmanwho doubled Billy D Williams as
Lando Calrissian, and he's agreat guy.
I love these people, I reallydo, and you recognize that there
is no full proof, you know,safety net for them and
(18:19):
something is always possible andthey take that risk which you
know I kind of admire, but it isa sickness.
Max Chopovsky (18:28):
That is crazy.
What acting do you do whenyou're falling off a three-story
tower?
Brett Baer (18:36):
Well, I'll tell you something.
You know some of these guys areso good and so in control of
their bodies that they can dodifferent things in mid-air as
they're falling that make itlook like, you know, they're
scrambling to try and savethemselves.
Or you know, there's differentkinds of falls too.
Like you know, doing a fliphead over tail is one thing, but
(18:57):
there's something that'sactually harder that these guys
do, where they'll fall straightdown face first and then they're
capable of turning their bodiesin mid-air so they land on
their backs without flipping,like a somersault, so they're
just kind of rotating, and thatis like the muscle control that
it takes to be able to do thatin mid-air.
But these guys can do it.
(19:17):
A lot of them were professionalhigh divers who had then
transferred over to like doingstunt work and instead of
landing in water they werelanding.
You know I didn't want to evenget on the high dive growing up
at my local pool, but these guysare like doing flips and I mean
some of them were doing likedouble flips and kips and turns
and this and that, and it wasvery impressive but-.
Max Chopovsky (19:35):
I mean when you're standing and looking at
the high dive at your local pool, it seems completely manageable
.
And then you get up on it andyou're like, oh my God, like the
perspective.
Same distance, but theperspective is outrageously
different.
And I can just imagine lookingat like a two, three story
(19:55):
building, you're like that'sfine.
And then you get up and you'relike, oh my God, I'm about to
die.
Brett Baer (20:01):
I actually was going to tell you this for the proper
perspective to understand whatyou're doing, you can stand up
and put like a throw pillow,like a couch throw pillow, down
on the floor at your feet orlike a large coffee table book.
That was the perspective I had.
Now take a deck of cards andput it in the middle of that
coffee table book.
That's the red target thatyou're supposed to hit, in the
(20:24):
center of the bag.
So you don't, you know, go offthe side or get bounced, and so
when you're standing therelooking down at a deck of cards
at your feet, that's the feelingyou have and I mean I can't
believe I did it.
But I think that those kids likedrilled into me this desire not
to give in and seem or feelweak.
(20:47):
Now I will say it took me a lotof time, a lot of growing up, a
lot of therapy to get to apoint where it was like why are
you so willing to abuse and hurtyourself to be accepted by
other people?
And getting to a point of goinglike, oh, I don't need to break
my elbow or have a crackedvertebrae apparently I have I
(21:12):
can be me Like it was okay to bethat delightful little pixie
but I was terrified intobecoming this thing.
That hurt me in many ways butit protected me and as I got
older I was kind of able to sortof disentangle that
(21:32):
infrastructure of protectionfrom around me and kind of go
like it's okay that I'm not youknow, I'm not some big, tough,
macho knuckle breaker, that'sjust not me.
Max Chopovsky (21:44):
Yeah, it almost seems like it was twofold.
It was having a sense ofcontrol, taking back the control
from the bullies on theplayground, and also not being a
threat to them by allowing themto do whatever it is they
wanted to do, but on your terms,and so that was.
It almost seemed like a copingmechanism.
(22:06):
But what's crazy is when you'restanding on that tower, you
have to give up all control.
Brett Baer (22:12):
Yes, that is absolutely true.
It's so crazy.
It's really this very strangeparadox, isn't it?
Cause it's about like believingthat you have control and yet
you are genuinely not in control.
And I think, ultimately, that'sthe takeaway or the lesson,
which is that, or the moral ofthe story, that all of us
(22:33):
probably find these copingmechanisms that, in the long run
, are more perhaps I don't wantto say damaging, but are not
productive ultimately, and thatthere's a healthier way of
taking one's journey in lifethat probably requires in a
(22:57):
tremendous amount of innerconfidence and strength that
most of us, as young people,when these things get formed,
don't have.
We all grow up just trying toget by, and it goes in many
different ways.
I mean, some people become, forexample, overstudious and they
become dedicated to the A plusin a way that at 30 or 40, a
(23:20):
lifetime of that starts to takea toll and they go, hey, maybe I
need to enjoy my life a littlebit more.
What have I become?
Because I'm kind of thisautomaton, so that's another
version of it.
Obviously, the harder thingslike drugs or alcohol, those are
other coping mechanisms thatprobably feel like they're
working in a moment and then oneday they're not.
(23:42):
So this was definitely somethingthat I realized.
It made me some money.
I will say, dave and I, one ofthe first things we did that I
don't think you mentioned wasthe Saturday morning TV show
where we did silent knockaboutcomedy and throwing each other
downstairs and through walls.
That was the first professional, real professional gig I had,
prior to the sitcom work that Idid, but at what cost?
(24:05):
Because there are times when Iwonder am I going to have mental
problems from all the pratfallsI did and the concussions I
gave myself?
Max Chopovsky (24:14):
Did you end up doing any more stunt work after
that, or was that the end ofyour stuntman career?
Brett Baer (24:20):
No, it wasn't the end.
That was probably in the early90s and Dave and I did our TV
show, I think in 1997.
I had been in sketch comedy andwhen I met David Ackme one of
the things that drew us to eachother was our love of physical
comedy.
One of the first bits he and Iever did together was a bit
called Crazy Monkeys, where Idon't know if you remember this,
(24:42):
but there was a guy named BobbyBarracini who had a monkey act.
He had a Norengatang act thatused to always be on the Tonight
Show.
He performed in Vegas.
So I played Bobby Barracini andDave played all the monkeys and
Bobby Barracini allegedly hadbeen accused of not treating his
monkeys well.
In the sketch I was an abusivecharacter who was beating his
(25:04):
monkeys and the baby monkey atthe end of the sketch had had it
.
I mean, listen to the story,right?
I'm basically telling my storyall over again.
So the baby monkey finallydecides to seek retribution and
then it turns into kind of aMartin Lewis thing where we're
chasing each other all aroundthe theater over seats and
through walls and jumpingthrough windows and shit like
(25:25):
that.
So that was like in the mid-90s.
And then we got the TV showwhere we did more of the same in
a show called Monkey Boys.
Monkeys are a theme in this.
Max Chopovsky (25:36):
Do you think there's any correlation between
your coming to terms with whatall of that playground stuff
meant in your life and the moveaway from the more physical?
Brett Baer (25:48):
comedy?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean aside from the fact thatat a certain age you go like,
oh, I can't do that anymore.
That's part of it.
But yeah, I do think, like Ithink as I got more evolved and
as I grew more to beappreciative of my whole self,
new dynamics and new colors cameto the forefront.
(26:10):
That I think like if you look atthe arc of my TV career, for
example, mine and Dave's TVcareer, we started in hard joke
comedy, not physical comedy, butlike Norm MacDonald, working
for two years on the NormMacDonald show, it was all about
learning hard jokes and so wedid a lot of hard jokes, sitcom
writing.
And then, as we get to about 10years later, we start doing
(26:30):
United States of Terra, which isreally just kind of like a half
hour drama, even though it wascalled a comedy but it was not.
It was way ahead of its time.
It was a very dark, very deepshow that we ended up show
running eventually at the end ofthe series.
And then New Girl was kind ofmaybe a blend of that because it
was emotional and the sort ofthing.
But by the time you get to BadSisters and our being in love
(26:50):
with the material that led toBad Sisters.
I think you see more of acomplexity in the kind of work
we're doing.
That I think kind of got lessreliant on big, broad, wacky,
knockabout stuff and started toget a little bit more
emotionally rich, because Ithink I'll speak for myself I
can't speak for Dave, but I justgot more comfortable being
(27:12):
honest about those parts ofmyself and the feelings I was
having and where I felt like Iwas succeeding and failing in my
life and wanting to explorethat and I think that's probably
to answer your question adefinitive.
Max Chopovsky (27:25):
yes, I mean I think we, on one level, we kind
of have to thank those futuremafiosos for setting in motion
what would eventually becomeCrazy Monkeys.
Brett Baer (27:38):
Well, that's true.
I'm hoping that they had theirown journeys and that they all
discovered their own fullerselves.
And maybe that may.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But again, all I know is what Isaw in the news and who I was
looking at.
I don't know what theirinvolvement was, I just know
that it seemed like there was areally tough life.
(28:01):
Like.
I didn't mention this, but mymain bully was actually an
adorable little, self-avowed12-year-old Nazi, and I only
call him a Nazi because hecalled himself a Nazi and I
think that he was just mostlyangry that he wasn't Italian and
it wasn't allowed into the coolclub and needed an identity.
So he became a Nazi and I'mhalf Jewish anyway, but he
(28:25):
didn't call me half the names,he called me all the names, all
the fun names, and he was themain source of pain in my life.
Max Chopovsky (28:35):
So the band leader, the band leader yeah
Well, it's interesting because,like, on the one hand, you have
them to thank for starting thisfirst part of your career, on
the other hand, it's sointeresting how, as we evolve
and your story touches on thisas we evolve, two things happen.
(28:57):
One, we realize that otherpeople don't care as much as we
think they do Great point.
And in parallel, we start tocare less.
That's exactly right.
Just imagine the shit you usedto care about and what was so
(29:18):
just dominating in your life,the things that would dominate
your thoughts.
And now you look back on that,you're like not only was that
completely irrelevant, butnobody cared about it as much as
I thought they did, becausethey were doing the same thing I
was doing, which they were soself-absorbed that they were too
busy to even think about what Iwas dealing with.
Brett Baer (29:41):
One fantastic point.
I mean the reality of this isand it kind of goes to the
storytelling stuff the realityis everything I just told you is
true, but it's true from myperspective, right, like there
are other kids who went toWilmot Elementary School and
Junior High and Deerfield HighSchool who did not have this
(30:02):
experience, who would say whatare you talking about?
It was all pretty in pink.
I don't know what you're like,you're nuts.
So everything I told you, I sawwith my own eyes or I heard.
But again to your point, max, weblow these things up to this
large scale because that's howimportant they are to us and in
(30:25):
reality maybe this wasn't whatwas happening, maybe it was my
perception of what was happening.
But what's important isrecognizing that we all keep
doing this right and as we getolder we get better at it.
But I think it's human instinctto want to organize and
understand and explain and toput the narrative together in a
(30:45):
way that helps us think weunderstand, like, for example,
in my story.
It's like the reality is Ithought I was in control by
challenging these kids to dothese things to me, but it's
like if you take a step back ina larger scale way, in a more
spiritual way.
I wasn't in control of nothing,like that's sad, that's awful
(31:10):
that I would do that to myselfto feel okay.
And I think if I've learnedanything, it's really to try to
kind of keep reminding oneselfof what you just said.
Nobody's thinking about thisthe way you're thinking about
yourself and these things aren'tas big Like nothing matters
that much yeah.
Max Chopovsky (31:30):
Like you weren't in control of if it happened.
You were in control of when ithappened, or so you thought, and
that you extrapolated that tomean that you were in control,
when in reality that was thesort of control that you thought
you could have to help yourationalize what was happening.
But like to your point, whoknows, maybe those bullies had a
(31:53):
terrible home life and maybethat was there, like if you you
know freaks and geeks.
When the girl invites the maincharacter over to her house and
it's, the dinner starts totallyfine, the parents seem normal
and they live in a trailer, butthe conversation is completely
normal and then it just devolvesso quickly into her just
(32:16):
screeching out of that parkingspace and it's like to people
that don't know where that girlis coming from, what her home
life is like.
They're like she's bitch.
But then the main charactergoes over to her house and she
was like, oh my God, I'm theonly friend she has and this is
just her coping mechanism.
Brett Baer (32:37):
Exactly, exactly, I mean there's no doubt.
I mean just imagine thepressure you must be under
growing up in thosecircumstances that must lead to
measuring up, or who knowsbeyond that, what was going on.
I don't know but something,because why else would you be so
?
Max Chopovsky (32:54):
cruel, you know.
I mean, that's sort of theevolution, right.
If we're lucky enough to get tothat level, we start to expand
our perspective from just us tothose around us.
And when you can do that andyou can have that sort of
empathy, then you start tounderstand where people are
coming from.
And I can't remember where Iread this, but it was something
to the effect of when you seesomebody do something, you have
(33:18):
to give them the benefit of thedoubt, of the most kind
interpretation of the actionthat they're taking.
Brett Baer (33:27):
Ha, that's fantastic .
You just described my wifebecause you know, as you said in
the intro, my driving isaggressive.
I think is fair to say.
But when sometimes somebodycuts me off or isn't driving in
a way that I feel is okay and Isay my words out loud where I
become the bully, my wife willbe like that person might be
(33:50):
rushing to the hospital becausetheir mother is about to go into
surgery and I'm like, why doyou tell me this stuff?
Leave me alone, right, let mejust rant and rave.
And she's probably the mostevolved person I know and it's
like I want to be more like you.
But you know, I wondersometimes too, max, like are
there aspects of my personalitythat are actually copying or
(34:13):
mirroring what I was taught onthe playground?
Do I bully?
Are there times when I'maggressive, or did I learn to
fight back in some ways whereI'm not the most evolved?
Max Chopovsky (34:25):
person I could be .
I think the fact that you'reasking the question means the
answer is no, Ha ha ha.
Brett Baer (34:31):
Okay, I'll take that .
Max Chopovsky (34:35):
It's like everything everywhere all at
once, which I'm sure you've seen.
Yep, At the end you fight withhugs and, like after I watched
that movie, I literally the nextday started like not that I
wasn't hugging my kids before,but I hugged them even more.
And now, like when we havedisagreements or fights or
they're you know, being nasty toeach other, I'll just come up
(34:55):
and come up to them and givethem the biggest hug.
And it's crazy because half thetime it actually works, Like it
just sort of dissolves thetension.
Brett Baer (35:05):
Sure, that's so wise and emotionally intelligent I
should take that, don't give methe credit.
Max Chopovsky (35:11):
I saw it in the movie.
Brett Baer (35:14):
Oh, okay, I'll credit them, but it works, the
Daniels.
Max Chopovsky (35:19):
So you talked about the moral of the story.
Is there anything you want toadd with respect to what you
think the moral of the story is?
Brett Baer (35:28):
Hmm, I guess the moral of the story it's a
cautionary tale which is be trueto oneself Don't try to be more
than you are or you're not.
You'll fly too close to the sunand you will burn up.
Max Chopovsky (35:45):
I think that's probably what I would say.
We all know what happened toIcarus.
Brett Baer (35:49):
Exactly.
Max Chopovsky (35:51):
Why did you choose to tell this particular
story?
Brett Baer (35:55):
That's a great question.
You know it's funny becausewhen we were talking prior to
doing this and you were givingme the parameters of the podcast
, I, you know you go.
Everybody thinks like, oh, I'vegot a great story.
And then when you're forced tolike, think about one story and
go like, well, what story am Igoing to choose?
Like, what story is the storythat defines me or that I want
(36:16):
to share, or whatever.
And it was strange because Ithink, ultimately, there's a lot
of elements to the story that Ithink I hope anyway, are
interesting.
One is the stakes are so highbecause it gets to life and
death almost literally.
There's a crazy, ridiculousrisk factor that most people, in
(36:37):
a wish fulfillment kind of way,are going like I would never do
that, like who was stupidenough to do that.
But then I think the other partof it and I don't always tell
this aspect of it when I'mtelling the story, because you
know I might be telling it tothe people I know, who know me,
so they kind of have abackground on who I am.
You know it's one thing to tella story about a guy who's, you
know, a big, tough, professionalstuntman who's going to do a
(36:59):
high jump for the first time ora high fall, you're not
emotionally really invested inthat because the dichotomy and
the story isn't that strong.
I think the background stuff andgetting prepared for this
podcast forced me to kind of digin a little bit and kind of go
like, okay, well, why did I dothis?
Who am I or who was I?
(37:19):
And it opened up other stuffthat I've talked about quite a
bit, especially in therapy,about who I am and who I became.
That was really connected andso it gave the story maybe what
I would call like a bottom noteor a deeper layer than just
sometimes.
Usually when I tell the story,it's like, oh, yeah, I've done
high falls, what?
Yeah?
(37:39):
And I tell them the story and Igot hit in the head and people
are just like, ah, you're anidiot.
I'm like, yeah, I am an idiot.
But there is something I thinkrich in that concept we were
talking about that, the thingswe do to ourselves to survive
and I think that was definitelyat play here and has been at
play in so much of my life, andso I guess that's why I chose
the story.
(38:00):
It's fun, it has good backstoryand I think you're hooked in by
the risk and it's got a goodpayoff, which is that I get you
know smacked in the head anddon't remember anything.
Max Chopovsky (38:12):
Even though you don't get the part, you get the
lesson there you go, look at you, nice, very nice.
Brett Baer (38:21):
You must do this professionally.
Ha, ha, ha ha.
Max Chopovsky (38:25):
What do you think makes the story work?
Structurally, cause you do alot of professional storytelling
.
You understand how a story hasto play in order for it to
resonate.
So, from a structuralperspective, what makes it good?
Brett Baer (38:40):
I'd say there's several elements that are really
important, and one of them isyou have to start with an
emotional connection to thestory.
And when I say emotional, thatcan like if you're just gonna be
funny for funny sake, like astandup telling a story, then
you can emotionally connect topeople by being hilarious.
But what does really help is ifthe audience is able to put
itself in the protagonist'sshoes and feel like you know and
(39:01):
relate on some human level.
So hopefully, the vulnerabilityof saying like I was a beat up
kid and I was like everybody hasa version of that and so I
think there's some universalitythere.
I think obviously, as I saidbefore, stakes, having high
stakes, is always important instorytelling.
I think, probably from a TVwriting standpoint or dramatic
writing standpoint, stakes isreally the most important thing
(39:24):
of all, because if the stakesaren't high and it's the
question you get asked byexecutives all the time in our
business which like what are thestakes, what's the jeopardy,
what are we rooting for?
And it's all the same questionwhich is like what is the
audience clinging to?
Like I need this answer formyself Like what hangs in the
balance.
So I think that's important.
I think surprises or escalations, like my story doesn't end with
(39:46):
me doing my first high fall.
My story ends after the CNNcrew shows up and that's like a
surprise and an escalation.
It takes like, wow, youactually did the high fall, but
wait, a second hold on, it'sgonna get even crazier.
Listen to this.
So that adds an element.
I think in storytelling youwanna keep turning and twisting.
So once you have the stakes inplace and the character has his
(40:08):
drive to answer the jeopardy andthey're on their way, what are
the obstacles that come along?
Oh, cnn shows up.
Or it's not this tower, it'sthat tower, like.
So those turns and escalationsare especially in dramatic
writing and I assume in allwriting, but specifically for
what we do in our business,everything, right, that's where
you get an act break, like inthe old days when you used to do
(40:29):
commercial TV and you needed tobuild to an act break right,
whoa, shit, that just happened.
Wait, oh yeah, come backafterwards and you'll see what
happens now that they're both upthere on the platform together
with the camera.
So turns, escalations, I think,make a good story and then a
payoff.
I mean, you need a big payoff,you need a climax.
It needs to build to somethingthat's worth landing on.
(40:51):
You don't want your story tofritter out at the end, it's
like.
And so then I, you know, Ithink if I had told the story
and then I did my first highfall and guess what, I lived and
I succeeded and it went okay.
It's kind of like a little flat, a little boring, and the
reality is so much moreinteresting, which is that it
goes on from there and it buildsto a bigger payoff.
So building a story where itstarts kind of small and simple,
(41:13):
we all can kind of relate to it, and then it turns and it
twists and it escalates and thenboom, it pays off in some big,
funny or powerful or dramaticway or meaningful way, you know,
if you can land on somethingdeep, some deep realization or
epiphany, that also works too,and maybe especially if it's not
a fully happy ending.
Max Chopovsky (41:33):
like you, didn't get the part.
Brett Baer (41:35):
Yeah, exactly, I think there's richness in that.
I think you know, there arethose well-made endings where
it's just like and everythingworked out, blah, blah, blah,
and then that could sometimes belike ah, that's lovely.
The reality of life is and Ithink we're seeing this more and
more in the kind of dramaticwriting we're allowed to do,
where comedies and dramas arekind of blending.
The beauty of that is you getsomething that feels a little
(41:55):
bit more organic and a littlebit closer to all of our lives.
It doesn't end like a BradyBunch episode where Jan gets to
star in the play or whatever.
I don't even think that's anepisode, but it should be.
You know what I'm gonna writethat right now.
Let me write that down.
But the endings of a Ted Lassoto Succession or you know that
were left a little bit more hungin the balance is a beautiful
(42:18):
storytelling technique that Ithink feels like life.
It feels like life and alsoyou're not letting the audience
off the hook Right exactly, andif you want them to come back,
it's a great way to do it.
Max Chopovsky (42:32):
Yeah, I also, as a side note, think that there
should be a differentperspective.
The same story should be toldfrom a different perspective of
the CNN cameraman who has neverhad to climb up one of those
towers, let alone with a cameraon his shoulder.
So he was probably using onearm, and then everybody else
(42:53):
that climbed that tower probablyjumped off the platform.
This dude had to climb backdown, knowing that he had
priceless footage that he wouldlose if he dropped the camera or
fell.
So that dude's stakes were high.
And the fact that he did itwithout even asking, when his
producer was like go, I meanprops to that guy.
Brett Baer (43:11):
I love this.
You're a genius because in 30years of telling this story I've
never thought about that.
And he's just the antagonist,the villain of my story.
But the fact is he's got awhole life and, like you're
right, like he did climb up thatladder, it must have been with
one arm, because that camera wason his shoulder.
He was holding it up there.
I don't know how he did that.
(43:31):
I don't know who this guy is.
And, right, what if he had hisown, you know, cross to bear?
You know, and you're right, heprobably did have to climb down.
I don't remember because I was,you know, basically unconscious
and he did have valuablefootage of me almost losing my
life.
Max Chopovsky (43:48):
Yeah, I mean that guy.
Just imagine it was goingthrough his head.
Brett Baer (43:53):
Maybe I need to look him up, go have a beer and say
Well, definitely Probablysomething harder.
Max Chopovsky (43:59):
Yes, yeah, maybe so.
So we've talked a little bitabout stories.
What in your mind, makes for agood storyteller, a good
storyteller?
Brett Baer (44:10):
Hmm, well, I'll give you a couple things here.
First of all, passion and adesire to share and a
willingness to peel back thatfirst outer layer and show and
be vulnerable and expose sometruths that are the kinds of
things that I think all of us inour daily life try to cover up.
(44:31):
So I think being able to kindof maybe pull the curtain back a
little bit and show the deeper,darker stuff that's under there
is rich, and I think audienceslike really appreciate that.
I think another thing thatmakes a great storyteller is
somebody who is willing to justget out there and fail, like
anybody who's like willing tojust throw themselves whole hog
(44:53):
into sharing and experience andisn't afraid to maybe fall on
their face.
I'll give you an example ofthis.
This isn't somebody who wasafraid to fail at all, believe
me, this guy.
So I worked on 30 Rock, tracyMorgan.
I was on set one day and Tracycomes up to me.
I'm just standing there with myscript or whatever, and he
comes up to me and he goes, andI'm not going to try and do a
Tracy Morgan impression, becausethere's some people that do a
(45:14):
very good journey and I don't,but he's like I want to open a
restaurant.
I'm like, oh okay, yeah, likewhat kind of?
And he went into this whole bitabout how he wanted to open a
pancake house, where he wasgoing to do a stage show, where
he was going to ride one ofthose like old people scooters
and jump like Evil Canevilleover phone books while people
(45:34):
reading their pancakes.
And I was like what is he like?
He's clearly out of his mind.
But okay, and I was kind ofegging him along and he was, he
would get more and more detailedabout the pancakes and the sort
of thing.
And somebody else walked overinto the conversation and Tracy
turns to this person and goes Iwant to open a restaurant.
And he starts this story orthis bit or this chunk over
(45:57):
again and I was like, oh my God,he's working on material.
He was using me to bouncematerial and so he starts
telling the same story as he'sdoing that.
He's self editing, right?
Anything I didn't respond to ordidn't laugh at he doesn't
touch.
It's gone.
Anything that I did laugh at.
He not only says again, getsthe same laugh, but then
(46:20):
expounds upon it and goesfurther.
And then a third person comesover to the conversation.
He turns to them and goes Iwant to open a restaurant.
And then we're right back tothe top again and I'm watching
him and I'm going son of a bitch, this guy's he's probably got
like a Conan appearance orsomething like that.
He's working a bit out and heis brilliantly on the fly
(46:41):
determining what's working,what's not, as he tells this
story, this ridiculous, sillystory.
But I'm watching him work and Ithink that's another part of
great storytelling is like, likeI said, I've told this story 30
years now and I, you know thereare parts of it that I leave
out, or there are parts of itthat I add in.
Or, like when I knew I was doingthis podcast, like I said, I
(47:03):
thought, oh, dig a little deeperinto this.
And I think having an awarenessof what the audience is
responding to or not, like wherethe heart of what you have to
share is actually connecting,and that's something that I
think takes practice, which iswhy I think you have to be
willing to fail and you have tobe willing to kind of like, try
(47:25):
it and it's like okay, the rampup to the story is too long, let
me get to the cool part.
Or you know what?
I didn't really nail the ending.
Is there a more profound ormore hilarious way that I can
like button this thing up?
Where's my out?
What's my?
Do?
I need to like spend a littlemore time explaining this so
that people can follow along andactually get the jeopardy you
(47:46):
know Totally.
Max Chopovsky (47:48):
Totally.
It's crazy how you can't getbetter at whatever it is you're
trying to get better at unlessyou are willing to be humbled
and be a beginner, because Ifeel like the older we get, the
harder it is for us.
We might be growing on one sideof things, in terms of
(48:12):
understanding who we are andother people don't care, et
cetera, but on the other end,we're kind of more and more
hesitant to look like beginnersbecause we have all this
experience, we've done all thesethings, we have all these
accolades.
Why should we look likebeginners?
But that's what you have to dofor growth.
And the fact that he came up toyou without, by the way,
(48:35):
telling you what he was about todo.
He just went right into it,which is brilliant, and he just
processed what you were tellinghim and immediately used it, and
he was like I don't care if youthink this shit's not funny.
Maybe you're not my ultimateaudience that I actually want to
perform this for.
Maybe you're just my tester,right?
Brett Baer (48:57):
Yeah, and I'm going to get from you what I can and
it's going to be filed into myhuman computer and I'm going to
come out with a new output forthe next person based on the
feedback you gave me, and I'mgoing to try it again.
You know, I'll say somethingabout your beginner thing.
I'll just I'll let you know alittle thing.
I was terrified to come on thepodcast today, because it's
(49:21):
scary to put myself out herelike this, and I was in a panic
but I'm always in a panic aboutauditions or meetings or, you
know, pitches or whatever.
So I'm used to it at this pointand I've like kind of worked on
the muscle of kind of like okay, okay, you're going to go
through this process, you'regoing to go through this, you're
going to go down seven minutesbefore and you're going to go
(49:41):
blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I have learned to cope withthe pain and the fear of failure
well enough to actually show upand click on the link to start
the podcast with you.
But it wasn't easy and I thinkthat's part of the thing too is
(50:01):
recognizing you know what it'shard.
It's hard to be vulnerable,it's hard to put oneself out
there, and if you're going to bethe storyteller in a situation,
if you're going to try toconnect with people, you're
going to have to share a littlebit and you're going to have to
get vulnerable and personal.
And then you have to just kindof say you know what, and it's
sort of what we've been talkingabout all along this is me and
(50:25):
I'm good enough for me.
And you might not like me atthe end of the story you might
be bored, you might not care,you might think I'm rambling,
you might think this, but youknow what.
This is who I am, this is whatI got.
Somebody will like it, somebodywill love it and it might not
be you, but I got to give it mybest shot.
And then the more comfortableyou get with the process of
(50:46):
saying I'm going to jump in hereand just I know I think I can
entertain you.
I mean, I think for me that'sultimately the largest goal is
entertainment.
Because you know you say themoral story.
I know you often ask in thepodcast like, do it's every
story have to have a moral?
And that you know I think no,they don't.
But you could probably find amoral in any story if you look
(51:08):
for it.
On the other hand, I kind ofsubscribe to the Seinfeld
approach of like, no hugging, nolearning.
That it's maybe not our job whenwe're telling a story or
writing a story to proselytizeor to teach a moral or a lesson.
Our job is to tell anentertainment that then people
(51:31):
can derive from it what it meansto them, and then somebody's
going to have a differentopinion or a different takeaway,
and that's the good thing.
But what you can offer is ahuman truth that then can be
absorbed by the audience, andthen that's their business.
That's sort of their like.
I had English teachers to saychewing gum should be done in
the privacy of one's own bedroom, and I'm like what?
(51:53):
But maybe deciding what themoral of the story is also
something that should be done inthe privacy of one's own
bedroom, because I think whenyou write to it you're not doing
the fundamental job ofcapturing an audience and taking
them on a ride.
Max Chopovsky (52:12):
Perhaps Correct, and if you're good enough as a
storyteller to write a storythat has that bottom note, then
you don't need to sort of cramthe moral down the audience's
throat, because different peoplemight come away with different
morals.
Some people might not see atakeaway at all, and that's okay
(52:32):
.
What is one of your favoritebooks?
That is a really good storythat gets storytelling right.
Brett Baer (52:43):
Well, if you don't mind, I'm going to cheat a
little bit.
And it is a book, but it's aplay.
It's a book.
That is a play that I read whenI was in high school.
I found it in my high schoolpublic library, which is
stunning to me in this day andit brings Chicago back around
again too which is AmericanBuffalo by David Mamet.
Which the thing about DavidMamet that I fell in love with
(53:05):
as a kid, besides all the swearwords, which are just beautiful,
luscious sentences of foulmouth genius, but what Mamet
gets so right and is such a, bythe way, I want to say, I know
that politically and otherwise,david might be sort of like a
lightning rod right now, butlet's just talk about the work.
(53:27):
I don't know the man.
The writing is so lean and sotight and so unfat that reading
and understanding AmericanBuffalo or Glengarry Glen Ross,
especially the stage version, issuch great tutelage in terms of
(53:49):
getting to the point, cuttingwhat's unnecessary, leaving the
audience to fill in the blanks,the pauses, like the pincher
pauses that Mamet adapted.
We joke about pincher pauses,but it's like what's not written
becomes what is written.
And I'll tell you, I'll giveyou a quick story real quick.
When I was a senior in college Iwas like what am I going to do
(54:11):
with my life?
David Mamet was my idol.
I was like I'll go work forDavid Mamet.
And so I wrote David Mamet likea six page letter just gushing
about how important he was to me, and I sent it.
I got an address for a movie hewas working on called Things
Change, and I sent him this sixpage letter Please, if there's
(54:32):
anything that I could do for you, I don't even need to get paid
blah, blah, just use this, usethat, use that.
It was on and on and on.
So about a month later I comehome to my rental house at USC
and I open my mailbox and insideis a letter with the Things
Change stationery, and typed upin the upper corner is just the
(54:56):
word Mamet.
I freaked out.
I was like oh my God, like youcould I still have the letter,
obviously.
And the envelope, which you cansee, I ripped open as if I was
like yeah, so the letter.
Basically, I'll quote it to you, it won't take long.
He says Dear Mr Bear, thank youfor your kind note.
Unfortunately, I have noposition to offer you at this
(55:17):
time, but I appreciate youwriting and wish you luck in the
future.
Sincerely, david Mamet.
And to me, that was my firstlesson in writing that came at
the hand of David Mamet, whichwas dude I didn't need six pages
and the fact that he wrote backat all.
(55:38):
In my silly little mind I takea lesson from it, from Mr Mamet.
He might have just been likeI'll write the kid a note, but
to me the lesson was calm down,just keep it simple, stupid.
Max Chopovsky (55:54):
Get to the point, get out, write six pages, sleep
on it and then convince it tothree, sleep on it again and
then cut it in half until youhave a half a page and you'll
realize how much superfluousshit it was in that original six
pages.
Oh, I'd be embarrassed to readwhat I wrote.
I mean, that is normal for acreative.
(56:15):
When you read V1, when you'reon V4, you're like, oh my God,
that was dog shit.
In fact, I once flew to NewYork for the day to see Glenn
Gary Glen Ross when Al Pacinoreprised his role and I waited
for him out back with theprogram and he signed it for me.
(56:35):
Oh, how cool.
I just remember because I amsuch a big fan of the dialogue
in that movie.
Along with so to me it's thethree finance movies Glenn Gary,
glen Ross, wall Street andBoiler Room, and this was before
Billions, right.
So it means fantastic,fantastic, really tight dialogue
and just to see Pacino up there, it was, oh my God, it was
(57:00):
worth every.
It was unbelievable.
Brett Baer (57:03):
I saw Peter Falk play the Jack Lemon role in
Chicago on stage.
Yeah, oh, and I don't know ifyou know this, but this is
another writing thing too.
But you know that Alec Baldwinmonologue from the movie was not
in the original play but it wasso successful, became such a
powerful kind of memorablemoment that Mammet then
(57:23):
incorporated it into the stageplay.
But it is not in the originalPulitzer winning theater piece.
Wow.
Max Chopovsky (57:30):
He pulled the Tracy Morgan.
Brett Baer (57:32):
Yes, he did Exactly.
Hey, that's working.
I'm going to put it in, yeah.
Max Chopovsky (57:37):
Last question for you If there is one thing you
could say to your 20-year-oldself, what would it be?
Brett Baer (57:46):
Oh boy, relax, have fun, have faith, trust.
It's all going to be okay.
You'll get everything thatyou're meant to get and there's
no sense fighting for the thingsyou think you were meant to get
(58:06):
that are not your destiny.
So just have a good time andstop worrying and angsting so
much.
It's all going to be fine,you're going to be okay.
Max Chopovsky (58:20):
Enjoy the ride.
Yes, enjoy the ride For whatit's worth.
It is never too late for thatadvice for anyone listening ever
.
Brett Baer (58:31):
Yeah, I'll tell you, from my ripe old age of almost
57 now, I'm still teachingmyself that every day.
Or when I say teaching, tryingto teach, I should say because
I'm not learning, I'm stillangsting.
Max Chopovsky (58:46):
Most important thing is the effort.
That's all part of the journey.
Well, that does it, my friendEmmy, Award-winning producer and
writer Brett Baer.
Thank you for being on the show.
Brett Baer (59:00):
Thank you, max.
I had a great time.
You have the best voice inpodcasting, so soothing.
Max Chopovsky (59:05):
I appreciate it For show notes and more.
Head over to MossPodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was Moro of the Story.
I'm Max Jepowsky.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
Thanks for watching.
I'll see you next time.
This is Moral of the Story Interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, max Dripofsky.
Today's guest is Brett Baer, anEmmy Award-winning producer and
writer that has worked on showslike New Girl, 30 Rock, united
States of Terra, joey and more.
Growing up in Deerfield,illinois, brett was so
(00:25):
captivated by television heconverted his parents' basement
into the Hollywood of theMidwest, deconstructing
cardboard boxes to recreate theswamp from mash, the studio set
from Letterman and otherclassics of the day.
And while other kids playedwith Legos, he bribed his sister
and neighbors with Twizzlers tobe his on-air talent.
Fast forward to the early 90swhen Brett decided that the
(00:48):
entertainment industry wasfinally ready, moving to LA to
attend the University of SouthCalifornia's School of Cinema
Television.
After dazzling his classmatesat the Groundlings Sunday
Company, he joined Acme ComedyTheatre, the legendary sketch
group, where he would meet hiswriting partner, dave Finkel.
Moving on to take the world ofanimation by storm, brett wrote
(01:09):
for the Animaniacs and Pinky andthe Brain, earning him a
daytime Emmy nomination for someof the wittiest dialogue.
This Side of Family Guy.
Brett knew that he was destinedfor primetime, however, and
soon made his move to Norm,joining the ABC sitcom as a
story editor.
Stints on Just Shoot Me andHappy Family followed and in
(01:30):
2007, finally vindicated, brettwon the outstanding comedy
series Emmy for 30 Rock, whichhe co-executive produced.
Not satisfied with just oneaward, he took home another Emmy
for his work on the UnitedStates of Terra.
Finally, that mere nominationfor Pinky and the Brain was a
scar healed.
Along with his partner, dave,brett went on to create the hit
(01:53):
series New Girl and, morerecently, bad Sisters, a binge
watchable show now streaming onApple TV+.
Brett isn't just the writer,mind you.
An avid reader with a seeminglyeffortless understanding of
world events, brett enjoys ahealthy discourse on the
intricacies and nuances ofgeopolitical relationships and
offers a balanced view to thosewho seek it.
(02:15):
A fanatical White Sox fan,brett has an iron grip on all
team stats and trivia, and whenit comes to playing he prefers
pickleball, crushing hisopponents likely while regaling
them with the news of the day.
But if you think he's a boringmiddle-aged suburban dad with a
proclivity for watching baseballfrom the living room, lazy boy,
(02:36):
just tell him you're in a hurryto get to the other side of LA,
with an intimate knowledge ofevery artery leading into and
out of the city, brett willproceed to transform into Mad
Max and get you to yourdestination on time, even if you
soil yourself in the process.
And so, a man of many talents,of contradictions embodied in
(02:56):
aspirations achieved.
Brett Bear, welcome to the show.
Brett Baer (03:00):
Oh my God, where did you come up with all of that?
I mean, honestly, I knowexactly where you got it because
I can tell the writing is mypartner, dave Finkel.
He gave you some of that, I'msure.
Oh my God, that's insane.
Max Chopovsky (03:12):
I actually wrote the whole thing myself.
Brett Baer (03:14):
Did you really?
Well, now I'm nervous.
I mean, I can't live up to that.
I wish I was a little drunk.
Max Chopovsky (03:19):
Well, here's the thing.
You don't have to live up toany of it, you've already lived
up to it all.
Brett Baer (03:24):
Oh, I guess that's true technically.
Max Chopovsky (03:27):
Here step ahead of me.
So set the stage.
Is there anything we shouldknow about the story before we
get into it?
Brett Baer (03:38):
Yeah, yeah, I'll give you a little background
real quickly.
You kind of mentioned I grew upin Deerfield, illinois, which
is on the North Shore of Chicago, which I know, max, you know
very well, but for those whodon't, it's the area of the
planet where John Hughes madeall of his movies, right,
breakfast Club, home Alone,risky Business was shot there,
which I was actually in.
I had one line in RiskyBusiness, but that's a different
(04:00):
story, and it's not, you know,admittedly, the toughest part of
town.
It's not the inner city, butthe school I went to had some
very rough kids in it, becausethere were a lot of my
classmates who were the childrenof some very tough people who
were connected to, let's justsay, the Chicago Syndicate, you
know.
So every recess was a littlebit like the Sopranos.
(04:22):
I mean, it was like they wereliterally cracking yardsticks
over each other's heads orcomparing their breastknuckles
with each other under the junglegym.
One kid, tragically his father,went missing and then was found
in several dumpsters around thecity, and you know, that was
like.
So, even though it was justlike John Hughes World, it was
like directed by Marty Scorsese,you know.
(04:44):
I tell you all that to tell youthat I was not like.
I was not one of these tough,rough kids.
I was a slight boy.
I was not the most masculinekid and I was, you know, a bit
of a pixie.
I enjoyed dancing and dressingup in costumes and putting on
shows in my basement and thesetough kids would play games like
and I don't know if you can saythis, but I'll say it anyway
called Smear the Queer, whichI'm just reporting the facts.
(05:07):
That was what the game wascalled, smear the Queer, and you
can only guess who they wantedto smear.
It was me, you know.
So I got beat up a lot, I gotmade fun of a lot, I was bullied
very hard and one day I justkind of lost it.
I couldn't take it anymore andit led me to stand up for myself
eventually and, I believe, alsoled me to one day leap three
(05:28):
stories, almost killing myselfin the process, live on CNN.
Well, I mean, it wasn't, itwasn't live, it was, I almost
wasn't live, but anyway, that'swhere sort of the setup for the
story.
Max Chopovsky (05:40):
Oh my God.
First of all, little did I knowthat some of the meanest
gangsters of Chicago got theirstart on the main streets of
Deerfield.
Brett Baer (05:51):
Yeah, Well, it's actually.
There's a little incorporatedarea next to Deerfield called
Riverwoods where it's verySopranos like and you know,
beautiful big homes, secludedand Floods a lot.
Yeah, so they had a littlefacility and their father would
answer and it would be like 5643and you'd be like, instead of
hello me, five, five, six, four,three.
Okay, am I supposed to place abet?
(06:15):
Can Andy come out and play?
You know that kind of thing.
So yeah, you know, and the kidscould be nice on occasion.
I'm sure some of this is justmy perception as a boy was beat
up all the time, but it feltoddly rough and violent
considering that it was, youknow, it was dear filled.
Max Chopovsky (06:32):
Yeah, I love it.
Into it.
Tell me a story.
Brett Baer (06:36):
All right, I'll tell you a story.
So everything I just told you.
You know, like I said, one day,I just I couldn't take the
bullying anymore and I decided Iwas going to stand up for
myself.
And I, I said to myself, youknow what, no matter what
happens, you're going to fightback.
You are going to just take thehardest take you can, you're
going to jump in there, you'regoing to fist, fly, kick,
(06:56):
whatever you have to do.
And sure enough, you know, Igot picked on one day and I just
I went for it and I lost badly.
I got the shit beaten out of me, as I always did.
But this time was different,because this time I refused to
show any pain whatsoever.
I was like I'm not going to letthem see me hurt.
And every time I got punched inthe face I would just smile.
(07:20):
And then, when the kid was donekicking the crap out of me, I
got up, I brushed myself off andI just walked away and the pain
in my face was so much lessthan the joy in my heart that
this kid felt so impotent.
It was so frustrated that hedidn't hurt me.
And I realized something thatthat might be my survival
(07:41):
technique that could be mycoping mechanism.
So I taught myself to actuallysuppress the pain and I decided
I would dictate these eventsmyself and I started challenging
these tough kids to do whateverthe fuck they wanted to me.
Let them punch me in thestomach as hard as they could,
or kick me down the slide orthrow me down the stairs, and I
(08:02):
would just take it like a ragdoll.
And I actually trained myselfto just absorb all this pain and
a funny thing happened, whichwas they stopped picking on me.
They were just more interestedin like having fun throwing the
office stuff and I could take it.
And it hurt, believe me.
It hurt Like I had the bruisesand scars to prove it, but I
(08:23):
wasn't getting beaten up.
It was me in charge, or so Ithought.
So one day I used all thesetalents that I had developed,
these sick talents, combinedwith some gymnastic skills I had
and some acting comedy chopsthat I'm now using as a writer,
and I actually became a reallygood physical comedian and over
(08:44):
time I started earning money asa physical comic because I could
do this stuff and people wouldhire me to fall down and go
through walls and stuff, and Istudied like the masters, like
Buster Keaton, I studiedreligiously.
Mo Howard of the Three Stoogeswas a great knockabout comedian.
My favorite movie was Hooperstarring Bert Reynolds, which
was about the Hollywood'sgreatest stuntman, and that
(09:05):
became my favorite film of alltime and I watched it 300 times.
So when I was 24 years old I gotthe opportunity to audition for
the Universal Studios WesternStunt Show and I was like, oh my
God, this is my calling, likethis is what I think, this is my
future.
And I did great.
I sailed through the audition.
I was funny, it was fast, Icould pretend to throw a punch,
(09:28):
I could take a punch, I couldfall down, etc.
I could ride a horse.
And on the last day they saidto me OK, so tomorrow you're
going to come back and we'regoing to do high falls into an
airbag.
I was like, huh, high falls intoan airbag.
That I'd never done before.
I'd seen it.
I mean it's a magnificent thingto watch these guys do this
(09:52):
right, and we all see it in themovies and I always wanted to,
but I'd never done it before andI was like, well, what the fuck
do I do?
I mean high falls into anairbag.
I mean people die doing thisstuff.
I don't know if you, if youhaven't seen the movie Hooper.
There's this amazing high fallthat the stunt performer named
AJ Bakunas does, where he jumps230 feet.
It was a world record at thetime off of a helicopter into an
(10:14):
airbag, and it is a thing ofbeauty.
Later, that same year 1978, ajtried to re-produce the record
and he went through his airbagand died.
So I mean, it's dangerous.
And look, look, we were nevergoing to be jumping anywhere
close to that high.
But I didn't know how high wewere going to be jumping.
(10:34):
I had no idea.
So all night long I'm in apanic.
I'm like what the fuck do I do?
Like I can't do this, Ishouldn't do this, I really
shouldn't do this.
But when I left for theaudition that day, I looked
across the street as I wasgetting my car and I saw it like
a little two story roof and Isaid you know what, if it's that
high, I can do it Anythinghigher, I'm just going to have
to walk away.
So I get to this stunt campuswhere we're doing these we're
(10:56):
going to do these high fallauditions and I see the tower
for the high falls and I go.
Oh my God, it's exactly thesame height.
I said I could do this isfantastic.
So they gather us up in.
The stunt coordinator goes OK,ladies, ladies, you'll be
jumping from that tower.
And he points to the tower thatI was talking about just a
minute ago.
And then he goes man, you'll bejumping from that tower up
(11:19):
there and he points way over ourheads and there's a tower that
is so high over my head I didn'teven see it and I'm like, oh my
God, it was like three stories.
I mean, it was a big deal.
And I was like what do I do?
I can't go through with this.
But all of a sudden, that littlekid on the playground.
I looked around at all theseprofessional stuntmen that I was
(11:40):
going to be competing with hereand I was like that.
And they became the guys on theplayground and I was like I
have to, I have to come throughNow.
Look, the stuntmen were great.
They were very friendly people.
They were not the bullies, butin my mind I projected onto them
this was the playground.
Again, I was back on theplayground.
I had to go through with it.
So they gave us some auditionsI'm sorry, rehearsals for the
(12:01):
audition, I should say, beforewe actually had to do our
audition to do the high fall.
When it was my turn, I didn'tknow what I was doing.
I mean, there's a whole way ofdoing this, so you don't get
hurt.
I didn't know, I just knew whatI'd seen in movies.
And I had to climb up thislittle rickety ladder.
That was like swaying and Idon't know if I mentioned this,
but I'm afraid of heights.
So, yeah, that into theequation.
And I keep climbing, and I keepclimbing and I'm like where is
(12:23):
the top of this thing?
What am I doing?
And I get on this little tinyplatform that's about two feet
wide by four feet long.
It's a trapeze artist platformthat you like, you see in the
circus, you know those littleplatforms, that's what I'm
standing on right, and I'm like,well, here goes nothing.
And I do the fall.
Boom, I hit the bag in a flipand it goes well, well enough,
(12:45):
like I survived.
And I was like you know what?
That wasn't so bad.
And I gotta say it doesn't feelgood to land on an airbag.
It's not like jumping into amarshmallow.
It hurts, you know.
It's like smacking a waterballoon with the back of your
hand, you know, but I did it.
I got two more practice runsand I was feeling like you know
what, good enough, like therewere some people who were really
talented.
I was like I didn't even thinkI could do it.
(13:07):
I did it Three stories into thebag.
So now it's comes time for theactual audition.
They've got us all going, oneat a time, boom, boom, boom.
And all of a sudden I look overand a CNN camera crew has shown
up to I don't know why, butthey're tape, they're gonna
videotape this audition.
Like it's a human intereststory.
It's like don't you have aPersian Gulf War to cover?
Or something like that.
(13:28):
So when it's my turn to go andthey call my number, I start
walking over to that littleladder I told you about and all
of a sudden the CNN cameramansome big, dumb guy with a camera
on his shoulder he startsclimbing up the ladder in front
of me and I'm like what the fuckis he doing?
Anyway, I'm like, well, this ismy audition, I don't have it.
Nobody's saying you know, hey,don't go up there, dude.
So now the two of us are on theladder and it's swinging and
(13:50):
I'm like what was scary beforeis now ultra scary.
We get up on this tiny littleplatform I told you about.
He's standing behind meshooting over my shoulder as I'm
gonna do my fall and I'm likethis I really don't need.
I've only done this three timesin my life and it's all been in
the last two hours.
So this stunt coordinator whowas counting people down one,
(14:12):
two, three, one, two, three hedecides all of a sudden, now
he's on camera, stunty McGeeneeds to be funny.
So Stunty McGee starts doinglike a like some stupid Western
improv with me and I'm like, ohfuck.
So I start improv-ing back withhim because we're on camera,
got it, it's my audition, Igotta do it.
And he does one of those dumbjokes where he kind of goes like
he goes you wanna see my quickdraw, and then he doesn't move
and he goes there, you see it.
(14:34):
And I'm like that is thedumbest joke.
And then all of a sudden hegoes bang and I'm like, oh,
that's my cue.
Now I'm like I start going,like I got shot.
I kind of grab my chest and Igo back and I bump into the
camera guy and I'm like, ohright, I forgot he's up.
Oh, and at that moment I'malready going forward.
All of my mechanics are off, I'mtotally jacked up and I'm going
(14:58):
, but I'm like falling and I canremember that feeling of like,
oh, this isn't good.
And I over-rotated so that myfeet hit the bag first, which,
if you can imagine, pushing downon one side of a balloon, the
other side of the balloon comesup right.
So my feet hit the bag first.
The bag comes up from behind meand smacks me in the back of
(15:22):
the head like a Mack truckhitting me.
I'm telling you it was theworst pain I've ever felt.
It hurt hard and I can heareverybody go.
Oh, you know.
And then I don't remember muchbecause the whole world was
spinning, everything was ringing, people were climbing onto the
bag to pull me off and all of asudden Stunty McGee's in my face
(15:45):
making sure that I'm alive,that I'm okay, and the one thing
I can remember from this momentis from the look in his eye.
I was not getting this job.
And the next thing I know thewoman reporter from CNN is like
got a microphone in my face andI'm probably speaking nonsense
and gibberish.
I have no idea what's comingout of me.
So somewhere, probably inAtlanta, there's a tape of me
(16:08):
making a complete ass out ofmyself.
But I didn't die, and that is avictory in itself.
Max Chopovsky (16:15):
What a story.
Okay, I have so many questions.
You answered the first, whichis you don't have the tape.
I think that it's worthwhiletracking it down, because that
has to be incredible.
Brett Baer (16:31):
I think I'm too afraid to look at it.
But yeah, you're right, Ishould call somebody and say hey
, I just wondered, do you havethis piece together?
But I mean, it was not pretty,I did not look good and I got
hurt bad.
I think I was concussed, youknow.
Max Chopovsky (16:47):
Yeah, so did you end up getting it checked out?
Or was this back in the daywhen, like, you're fine, just
walk it off?
Brett Baer (16:52):
No, it was.
You're fine, just walk it off.
I swallowed the pain and Iswear on my life.
45 minutes later I was doinganother stunt for the audition
where we had to do one of thoseI think they call it like swing
for life, which is kind of likeone of those rip line kind of
things and you sweat, you knowyou come down a rip line, but
(17:14):
then there's a release on it andthen you drop into a bag.
That wasn't as high, but I willtell you.
The funny kicker to that storyis, while we were doing that it
wasn't me, but while we weredoing that the airbag would
inflate.
The airbag would inflate, butin the middle of doing it we had
an earthquake in Californiathat day which knocked out the
electricity and knocked out thegenerator on the airbag, and so,
(17:37):
as they were about to do astunt, the airbag started
deflating and a guy almost waslike mid-stunt when that
happened.
So again, like you know, I havesuch respect for these people.
I really love stunt people.
I've had the opportunity towork with a lot of them in my
career and I really appreciatethem and they do everything they
(17:58):
can to protect the safety ofthe people they're working with,
especially the great ones.
My next neighbor is a stuntmanwho doubled Billy D Williams as
Lando Calrissian, and he's agreat guy.
I love these people, I reallydo, and you recognize that there
is no full proof, you know,safety net for them and
(18:19):
something is always possible andthey take that risk which you
know I kind of admire, but it isa sickness.
Max Chopovsky (18:28):
That is crazy.
What acting do you do whenyou're falling off a three-story
tower?
Brett Baer (18:36):
Well, I'll tell you something.
You know some of these guys areso good and so in control of
their bodies that they can dodifferent things in mid-air as
they're falling that make itlook like, you know, they're
scrambling to try and savethemselves.
Or you know, there's differentkinds of falls too.
Like you know, doing a fliphead over tail is one thing, but
(18:57):
there's something that'sactually harder that these guys
do, where they'll fall straightdown face first and then they're
capable of turning their bodiesin mid-air so they land on
their backs without flipping,like a somersault, so they're
just kind of rotating, and thatis like the muscle control that
it takes to be able to do thatin mid-air.
But these guys can do it.
(19:17):
A lot of them were professionalhigh divers who had then
transferred over to like doingstunt work and instead of
landing in water they werelanding.
You know I didn't want to evenget on the high dive growing up
at my local pool, but these guysare like doing flips and I mean
some of them were doing likedouble flips and kips and turns
and this and that, and it wasvery impressive but-.
Max Chopovsky (19:35):
I mean when you're standing and looking at
the high dive at your local pool, it seems completely manageable
.
And then you get up on it andyou're like, oh my God, like the
perspective.
Same distance, but theperspective is outrageously
different.
And I can just imagine lookingat like a two, three story
(19:55):
building, you're like that'sfine.
And then you get up and you'relike, oh my God, I'm about to
die.
Brett Baer (20:01):
I actually was going to tell you this for the proper
perspective to understand whatyou're doing, you can stand up
and put like a throw pillow,like a couch throw pillow, down
on the floor at your feet orlike a large coffee table book.
That was the perspective I had.
Now take a deck of cards andput it in the middle of that
coffee table book.
That's the red target thatyou're supposed to hit, in the
(20:24):
center of the bag.
So you don't, you know, go offthe side or get bounced, and so
when you're standing therelooking down at a deck of cards
at your feet, that's the feelingyou have and I mean I can't
believe I did it.
But I think that those kids likedrilled into me this desire not
to give in and seem or feelweak.
(20:47):
Now I will say it took me a lotof time, a lot of growing up, a
lot of therapy to get to apoint where it was like why are
you so willing to abuse and hurtyourself to be accepted by
other people?
And getting to a point of goinglike, oh, I don't need to break
my elbow or have a crackedvertebrae apparently I have I
(21:12):
can be me Like it was okay to bethat delightful little pixie
but I was terrified intobecoming this thing.
That hurt me in many ways butit protected me and as I got
older I was kind of able to sortof disentangle that
(21:32):
infrastructure of protectionfrom around me and kind of go
like it's okay that I'm not youknow, I'm not some big, tough,
macho knuckle breaker, that'sjust not me.
Max Chopovsky (21:44):
Yeah, it almost seems like it was twofold.
It was having a sense ofcontrol, taking back the control
from the bullies on theplayground, and also not being a
threat to them by allowing themto do whatever it is they
wanted to do, but on your terms,and so that was.
It almost seemed like a copingmechanism.
(22:06):
But what's crazy is when you'restanding on that tower, you
have to give up all control.
Brett Baer (22:12):
Yes, that is absolutely true.
It's so crazy.
It's really this very strangeparadox, isn't it?
Cause it's about like believingthat you have control and yet
you are genuinely not in control.
And I think, ultimately, that'sthe takeaway or the lesson,
which is that, or the moral ofthe story, that all of us
(22:33):
probably find these copingmechanisms that, in the long run
, are more perhaps I don't wantto say damaging, but are not
productive ultimately, and thatthere's a healthier way of
taking one's journey in lifethat probably requires in a
(22:57):
tremendous amount of innerconfidence and strength that
most of us, as young people,when these things get formed,
don't have.
We all grow up just trying toget by, and it goes in many
different ways.
I mean, some people become, forexample, overstudious and they
become dedicated to the A plusin a way that at 30 or 40, a
(23:20):
lifetime of that starts to takea toll and they go, hey, maybe I
need to enjoy my life a littlebit more.
What have I become?
Because I'm kind of thisautomaton, so that's another
version of it.
Obviously, the harder thingslike drugs or alcohol, those are
other coping mechanisms thatprobably feel like they're
working in a moment and then oneday they're not.
(23:42):
So this was definitely somethingthat I realized.
It made me some money.
I will say, dave and I, one ofthe first things we did that I
don't think you mentioned wasthe Saturday morning TV show
where we did silent knockaboutcomedy and throwing each other
downstairs and through walls.
That was the first professional, real professional gig I had,
prior to the sitcom work that Idid, but at what cost?
(24:05):
Because there are times when Iwonder am I going to have mental
problems from all the pratfallsI did and the concussions I
gave myself?
Max Chopovsky (24:14):
Did you end up doing any more stunt work after
that, or was that the end ofyour stuntman career?
Brett Baer (24:20):
No, it wasn't the end.
That was probably in the early90s and Dave and I did our TV
show, I think in 1997.
I had been in sketch comedy andwhen I met David Ackme one of
the things that drew us to eachother was our love of physical
comedy.
One of the first bits he and Iever did together was a bit
called Crazy Monkeys, where Idon't know if you remember this,
(24:42):
but there was a guy named BobbyBarracini who had a monkey act.
He had a Norengatang act thatused to always be on the Tonight
Show.
He performed in Vegas.
So I played Bobby Barracini andDave played all the monkeys and
Bobby Barracini allegedly hadbeen accused of not treating his
monkeys well.
In the sketch I was an abusivecharacter who was beating his
(25:04):
monkeys and the baby monkey atthe end of the sketch had had it
.
I mean, listen to the story,right?
I'm basically telling my storyall over again.
So the baby monkey finallydecides to seek retribution and
then it turns into kind of aMartin Lewis thing where we're
chasing each other all aroundthe theater over seats and
through walls and jumpingthrough windows and shit like
(25:25):
that.
So that was like in the mid-90s.
And then we got the TV showwhere we did more of the same in
a show called Monkey Boys.
Monkeys are a theme in this.
Max Chopovsky (25:36):
Do you think there's any correlation between
your coming to terms with whatall of that playground stuff
meant in your life and the moveaway from the more physical?
Brett Baer (25:48):
comedy?
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean aside from the fact thatat a certain age you go like,
oh, I can't do that anymore.
That's part of it.
But yeah, I do think, like Ithink as I got more evolved and
as I grew more to beappreciative of my whole self,
new dynamics and new colors cameto the forefront.
(26:10):
That I think like if you look atthe arc of my TV career, for
example, mine and Dave's TVcareer, we started in hard joke
comedy, not physical comedy, butlike Norm MacDonald, working
for two years on the NormMacDonald show, it was all about
learning hard jokes and so wedid a lot of hard jokes, sitcom
writing.
And then, as we get to about 10years later, we start doing
(26:30):
United States of Terra, which isreally just kind of like a half
hour drama, even though it wascalled a comedy but it was not.
It was way ahead of its time.
It was a very dark, very deepshow that we ended up show
running eventually at the end ofthe series.
And then New Girl was kind ofmaybe a blend of that because it
was emotional and the sort ofthing.
But by the time you get to BadSisters and our being in love
(26:50):
with the material that led toBad Sisters.
I think you see more of acomplexity in the kind of work
we're doing.
That I think kind of got lessreliant on big, broad, wacky,
knockabout stuff and started toget a little bit more
emotionally rich, because Ithink I'll speak for myself I
can't speak for Dave, but I justgot more comfortable being
(27:12):
honest about those parts ofmyself and the feelings I was
having and where I felt like Iwas succeeding and failing in my
life and wanting to explorethat and I think that's probably
to answer your question adefinitive.
Max Chopovsky (27:25):
yes, I mean I think we, on one level, we kind
of have to thank those futuremafiosos for setting in motion
what would eventually becomeCrazy Monkeys.
Brett Baer (27:38):
Well, that's true.
I'm hoping that they had theirown journeys and that they all
discovered their own fullerselves.
And maybe that may.
I don't know.
I don't know.
But again, all I know is what Isaw in the news and who I was
looking at.
I don't know what theirinvolvement was, I just know
that it seemed like there was areally tough life.
(28:01):
Like.
I didn't mention this, but mymain bully was actually an
adorable little, self-avowed12-year-old Nazi, and I only
call him a Nazi because hecalled himself a Nazi and I
think that he was just mostlyangry that he wasn't Italian and
it wasn't allowed into the coolclub and needed an identity.
So he became a Nazi and I'mhalf Jewish anyway, but he
(28:25):
didn't call me half the names,he called me all the names, all
the fun names, and he was themain source of pain in my life.
Max Chopovsky (28:35):
So the band leader, the band leader yeah
Well, it's interesting because,like, on the one hand, you have
them to thank for starting thisfirst part of your career, on
the other hand, it's sointeresting how, as we evolve
and your story touches on thisas we evolve, two things happen.
(28:57):
One, we realize that otherpeople don't care as much as we
think they do Great point.
And in parallel, we start tocare less.
That's exactly right.
Just imagine the shit you usedto care about and what was so
(29:18):
just dominating in your life,the things that would dominate
your thoughts.
And now you look back on that,you're like not only was that
completely irrelevant, butnobody cared about it as much as
I thought they did, becausethey were doing the same thing I
was doing, which they were soself-absorbed that they were too
busy to even think about what Iwas dealing with.
Brett Baer (29:41):
One fantastic point.
I mean the reality of this isand it kind of goes to the
storytelling stuff the realityis everything I just told you is
true, but it's true from myperspective, right, like there
are other kids who went toWilmot Elementary School and
Junior High and Deerfield HighSchool who did not have this
(30:02):
experience, who would say whatare you talking about?
It was all pretty in pink.
I don't know what you're like,you're nuts.
So everything I told you, I sawwith my own eyes or I heard.
But again to your point, max, weblow these things up to this
large scale because that's howimportant they are to us and in
(30:25):
reality maybe this wasn't whatwas happening, maybe it was my
perception of what was happening.
But what's important isrecognizing that we all keep
doing this right and as we getolder we get better at it.
But I think it's human instinctto want to organize and
understand and explain and toput the narrative together in a
(30:45):
way that helps us think weunderstand, like, for example,
in my story.
It's like the reality is Ithought I was in control by
challenging these kids to dothese things to me, but it's
like if you take a step back ina larger scale way, in a more
spiritual way.
I wasn't in control of nothing,like that's sad, that's awful
(31:10):
that I would do that to myselfto feel okay.
And I think if I've learnedanything, it's really to try to
kind of keep reminding oneselfof what you just said.
Nobody's thinking about thisthe way you're thinking about
yourself and these things aren'tas big Like nothing matters
that much yeah.
Max Chopovsky (31:30):
Like you weren't in control of if it happened.
You were in control of when ithappened, or so you thought, and
that you extrapolated that tomean that you were in control,
when in reality that was thesort of control that you thought
you could have to help yourationalize what was happening.
But like to your point, whoknows, maybe those bullies had a
(31:53):
terrible home life and maybethat was there, like if you you
know freaks and geeks.
When the girl invites the maincharacter over to her house and
it's, the dinner starts totallyfine, the parents seem normal
and they live in a trailer, butthe conversation is completely
normal and then it just devolvesso quickly into her just
(32:16):
screeching out of that parkingspace and it's like to people
that don't know where that girlis coming from, what her home
life is like.
They're like she's bitch.
But then the main charactergoes over to her house and she
was like, oh my God, I'm theonly friend she has and this is
just her coping mechanism.
Brett Baer (32:37):
Exactly, exactly, I mean there's no doubt.
I mean just imagine thepressure you must be under
growing up in thosecircumstances that must lead to
measuring up, or who knowsbeyond that, what was going on.
I don't know but something,because why else would you be so
?
Max Chopovsky (32:54):
cruel, you know.
I mean, that's sort of theevolution, right.
If we're lucky enough to get tothat level, we start to expand
our perspective from just us tothose around us.
And when you can do that andyou can have that sort of
empathy, then you start tounderstand where people are
coming from.
And I can't remember where Iread this, but it was something
to the effect of when you seesomebody do something, you have
(33:18):
to give them the benefit of thedoubt, of the most kind
interpretation of the actionthat they're taking.
Brett Baer (33:27):
Ha, that's fantastic .
You just described my wifebecause you know, as you said in
the intro, my driving isaggressive.
I think is fair to say.
But when sometimes somebodycuts me off or isn't driving in
a way that I feel is okay and Isay my words out loud where I
become the bully, my wife willbe like that person might be
(33:50):
rushing to the hospital becausetheir mother is about to go into
surgery and I'm like, why doyou tell me this stuff?
Leave me alone, right, let mejust rant and rave.
And she's probably the mostevolved person I know and it's
like I want to be more like you.
But you know, I wondersometimes too, max, like are
there aspects of my personalitythat are actually copying or
(34:13):
mirroring what I was taught onthe playground?
Do I bully?
Are there times when I'maggressive, or did I learn to
fight back in some ways whereI'm not the most evolved?
Max Chopovsky (34:25):
person I could be .
I think the fact that you'reasking the question means the
answer is no, Ha ha ha.
Brett Baer (34:31):
Okay, I'll take that .
Max Chopovsky (34:35):
It's like everything everywhere all at
once, which I'm sure you've seen.
Yep, At the end you fight withhugs and, like after I watched
that movie, I literally the nextday started like not that I
wasn't hugging my kids before,but I hugged them even more.
And now, like when we havedisagreements or fights or
they're you know, being nasty toeach other, I'll just come up
(34:55):
and come up to them and givethem the biggest hug.
And it's crazy because half thetime it actually works, Like it
just sort of dissolves thetension.
Brett Baer (35:05):
Sure, that's so wise and emotionally intelligent I
should take that, don't give methe credit.
Max Chopovsky (35:11):
I saw it in the movie.
Brett Baer (35:14):
Oh, okay, I'll credit them, but it works, the
Daniels.
Max Chopovsky (35:19):
So you talked about the moral of the story.
Is there anything you want toadd with respect to what you
think the moral of the story is?
Brett Baer (35:28):
Hmm, I guess the moral of the story it's a
cautionary tale which is be trueto oneself Don't try to be more
than you are or you're not.
You'll fly too close to the sunand you will burn up.
Max Chopovsky (35:45):
I think that's probably what I would say.
We all know what happened toIcarus.
Brett Baer (35:49):
Exactly.
Max Chopovsky (35:51):
Why did you choose to tell this particular
story?
Brett Baer (35:55):
That's a great question.
You know it's funny becausewhen we were talking prior to
doing this and you were givingme the parameters of the podcast
, I, you know you go.
Everybody thinks like, oh, I'vegot a great story.
And then when you're forced tolike, think about one story and
go like, well, what story am Igoing to choose?
Like, what story is the storythat defines me or that I want
(36:16):
to share, or whatever.
And it was strange because Ithink, ultimately, there's a lot
of elements to the story that Ithink I hope anyway, are
interesting.
One is the stakes are so highbecause it gets to life and
death almost literally.
There's a crazy, ridiculousrisk factor that most people, in
(36:37):
a wish fulfillment kind of way,are going like I would never do
that, like who was stupidenough to do that.
But then I think the other partof it and I don't always tell
this aspect of it when I'mtelling the story, because you
know I might be telling it tothe people I know, who know me,
so they kind of have abackground on who I am.
You know it's one thing to tella story about a guy who's, you
know, a big, tough, professionalstuntman who's going to do a
(36:59):
high jump for the first time ora high fall, you're not
emotionally really invested inthat because the dichotomy and
the story isn't that strong.
I think the background stuff andgetting prepared for this
podcast forced me to kind of digin a little bit and kind of go
like, okay, well, why did I dothis?
Who am I or who was I?
(37:19):
And it opened up other stuffthat I've talked about quite a
bit, especially in therapy,about who I am and who I became.
That was really connected andso it gave the story maybe what
I would call like a bottom noteor a deeper layer than just
sometimes.
Usually when I tell the story,it's like, oh, yeah, I've done
high falls, what?
Yeah?
(37:39):
And I tell them the story and Igot hit in the head and people
are just like, ah, you're anidiot.
I'm like, yeah, I am an idiot.
But there is something I thinkrich in that concept we were
talking about that, the thingswe do to ourselves to survive
and I think that was definitelyat play here and has been at
play in so much of my life, andso I guess that's why I chose
the story.
(38:00):
It's fun, it has good backstoryand I think you're hooked in by
the risk and it's got a goodpayoff, which is that I get you
know smacked in the head anddon't remember anything.
Max Chopovsky (38:12):
Even though you don't get the part, you get the
lesson there you go, look at you, nice, very nice.
Brett Baer (38:21):
You must do this professionally.
Ha, ha, ha ha.
Max Chopovsky (38:25):
What do you think makes the story work?
Structurally, cause you do alot of professional storytelling
.
You understand how a story hasto play in order for it to
resonate.
So, from a structuralperspective, what makes it good?
Brett Baer (38:40):
I'd say there's several elements that are really
important, and one of them isyou have to start with an
emotional connection to thestory.
And when I say emotional, thatcan like if you're just gonna be
funny for funny sake, like astandup telling a story, then
you can emotionally connect topeople by being hilarious.
But what does really help is ifthe audience is able to put
itself in the protagonist'sshoes and feel like you know and
(39:01):
relate on some human level.
So hopefully, the vulnerabilityof saying like I was a beat up
kid and I was like everybody hasa version of that and so I
think there's some universalitythere.
I think obviously, as I saidbefore, stakes, having high
stakes, is always important instorytelling.
I think, probably from a TVwriting standpoint or dramatic
writing standpoint, stakes isreally the most important thing
(39:24):
of all, because if the stakesaren't high and it's the
question you get asked byexecutives all the time in our
business which like what are thestakes, what's the jeopardy,
what are we rooting for?
And it's all the same questionwhich is like what is the
audience clinging to?
Like I need this answer formyself Like what hangs in the
balance.
So I think that's important.
I think surprises or escalations, like my story doesn't end with
(39:46):
me doing my first high fall.
My story ends after the CNNcrew shows up and that's like a
surprise and an escalation.
It takes like, wow, youactually did the high fall, but
wait, a second hold on, it'sgonna get even crazier.
Listen to this.
So that adds an element.
I think in storytelling youwanna keep turning and twisting.
So once you have the stakes inplace and the character has his
(40:08):
drive to answer the jeopardy andthey're on their way, what are
the obstacles that come along?
Oh, cnn shows up.
Or it's not this tower, it'sthat tower, like.
So those turns and escalationsare especially in dramatic
writing and I assume in allwriting, but specifically for
what we do in our business,everything, right, that's where
you get an act break, like inthe old days when you used to do
(40:29):
commercial TV and you needed tobuild to an act break right,
whoa, shit, that just happened.
Wait, oh yeah, come backafterwards and you'll see what
happens now that they're both upthere on the platform together
with the camera.
So turns, escalations, I think,make a good story and then a
payoff.
I mean, you need a big payoff,you need a climax.
It needs to build to somethingthat's worth landing on.
(40:51):
You don't want your story tofritter out at the end, it's
like.
And so then I, you know, Ithink if I had told the story
and then I did my first highfall and guess what, I lived and
I succeeded and it went okay.
It's kind of like a little flat, a little boring, and the
reality is so much moreinteresting, which is that it
goes on from there and it buildsto a bigger payoff.
So building a story where itstarts kind of small and simple,
(41:13):
we all can kind of relate to it, and then it turns and it
twists and it escalates and thenboom, it pays off in some big,
funny or powerful or dramaticway or meaningful way, you know,
if you can land on somethingdeep, some deep realization or
epiphany, that also works too,and maybe especially if it's not
a fully happy ending.
Max Chopovsky (41:33):
like you, didn't get the part.
Brett Baer (41:35):
Yeah, exactly, I think there's richness in that.
I think you know, there arethose well-made endings where
it's just like and everythingworked out, blah, blah, blah,
and then that could sometimes belike ah, that's lovely.
The reality of life is and Ithink we're seeing this more and
more in the kind of dramaticwriting we're allowed to do,
where comedies and dramas arekind of blending.
The beauty of that is you getsomething that feels a little
(41:55):
bit more organic and a littlebit closer to all of our lives.
It doesn't end like a BradyBunch episode where Jan gets to
star in the play or whatever.
I don't even think that's anepisode, but it should be.
You know what I'm gonna writethat right now.
Let me write that down.
But the endings of a Ted Lassoto Succession or you know that
were left a little bit more hungin the balance is a beautiful
(42:18):
storytelling technique that Ithink feels like life.
It feels like life and alsoyou're not letting the audience
off the hook Right exactly, andif you want them to come back,
it's a great way to do it.
Max Chopovsky (42:32):
Yeah, I also, as a side note, think that there
should be a differentperspective.
The same story should be toldfrom a different perspective of
the CNN cameraman who has neverhad to climb up one of those
towers, let alone with a cameraon his shoulder.
So he was probably using onearm, and then everybody else
(42:53):
that climbed that tower probablyjumped off the platform.
This dude had to climb backdown, knowing that he had
priceless footage that he wouldlose if he dropped the camera or
fell.
So that dude's stakes were high.
And the fact that he did itwithout even asking, when his
producer was like go, I meanprops to that guy.
Brett Baer (43:11):
I love this.
You're a genius because in 30years of telling this story I've
never thought about that.
And he's just the antagonist,the villain of my story.
But the fact is he's got awhole life and, like you're
right, like he did climb up thatladder, it must have been with
one arm, because that camera wason his shoulder.
He was holding it up there.
I don't know how he did that.
(43:31):
I don't know who this guy is.
And, right, what if he had hisown, you know, cross to bear?
You know, and you're right, heprobably did have to climb down.
I don't remember because I was,you know, basically unconscious
and he did have valuablefootage of me almost losing my
life.
Max Chopovsky (43:48):
Yeah, I mean that guy.
Just imagine it was goingthrough his head.
Brett Baer (43:53):
Maybe I need to look him up, go have a beer and say
Well, definitely Probablysomething harder.
Max Chopovsky (43:59):
Yes, yeah, maybe so.
So we've talked a little bitabout stories.
What in your mind, makes for agood storyteller, a good
storyteller?
Brett Baer (44:10):
Hmm, well, I'll give you a couple things here.
First of all, passion and adesire to share and a
willingness to peel back thatfirst outer layer and show and
be vulnerable and expose sometruths that are the kinds of
things that I think all of us inour daily life try to cover up.
(44:31):
So I think being able to kindof maybe pull the curtain back a
little bit and show the deeper,darker stuff that's under there
is rich, and I think audienceslike really appreciate that.
I think another thing thatmakes a great storyteller is
somebody who is willing to justget out there and fail, like
anybody who's like willing tojust throw themselves whole hog
(44:53):
into sharing and experience andisn't afraid to maybe fall on
their face.
I'll give you an example ofthis.
This isn't somebody who wasafraid to fail at all, believe
me, this guy.
So I worked on 30 Rock, tracyMorgan.
I was on set one day and Tracycomes up to me.
I'm just standing there with myscript or whatever, and he
comes up to me and he goes, andI'm not going to try and do a
Tracy Morgan impression, becausethere's some people that do a
(45:14):
very good journey and I don't,but he's like I want to open a
restaurant.
I'm like, oh okay, yeah, likewhat kind of?
And he went into this whole bitabout how he wanted to open a
pancake house, where he wasgoing to do a stage show, where
he was going to ride one ofthose like old people scooters
and jump like Evil Canevilleover phone books while people
(45:34):
reading their pancakes.
And I was like what is he like?
He's clearly out of his mind.
But okay, and I was kind ofegging him along and he was, he
would get more and more detailedabout the pancakes and the sort
of thing.
And somebody else walked overinto the conversation and Tracy
turns to this person and goes Iwant to open a restaurant.
And he starts this story orthis bit or this chunk over
(45:57):
again and I was like, oh my God,he's working on material.
He was using me to bouncematerial and so he starts
telling the same story as he'sdoing that.
He's self editing, right?
Anything I didn't respond to ordidn't laugh at he doesn't
touch.
It's gone.
Anything that I did laugh at.
He not only says again, getsthe same laugh, but then
(46:20):
expounds upon it and goesfurther.
And then a third person comesover to the conversation.
He turns to them and goes Iwant to open a restaurant.
And then we're right back tothe top again and I'm watching
him and I'm going son of a bitch, this guy's he's probably got
like a Conan appearance orsomething like that.
He's working a bit out and heis brilliantly on the fly
(46:41):
determining what's working,what's not, as he tells this
story, this ridiculous, sillystory.
But I'm watching him work and Ithink that's another part of
great storytelling is like, likeI said, I've told this story 30
years now and I, you know thereare parts of it that I leave
out, or there are parts of itthat I add in.
Or, like when I knew I was doingthis podcast, like I said, I
(47:03):
thought, oh, dig a little deeperinto this.
And I think having an awarenessof what the audience is
responding to or not, like wherethe heart of what you have to
share is actually connecting,and that's something that I
think takes practice, which iswhy I think you have to be
willing to fail and you have tobe willing to kind of like, try
(47:25):
it and it's like okay, the rampup to the story is too long, let
me get to the cool part.
Or you know what?
I didn't really nail the ending.
Is there a more profound ormore hilarious way that I can
like button this thing up?
Where's my out?
What's my?
Do?
I need to like spend a littlemore time explaining this so
that people can follow along andactually get the jeopardy you
(47:46):
know Totally.
Max Chopovsky (47:48):
Totally.
It's crazy how you can't getbetter at whatever it is you're
trying to get better at unlessyou are willing to be humbled
and be a beginner, because Ifeel like the older we get, the
harder it is for us.
We might be growing on one sideof things, in terms of
(48:12):
understanding who we are andother people don't care, et
cetera, but on the other end,we're kind of more and more
hesitant to look like beginnersbecause we have all this
experience, we've done all thesethings, we have all these
accolades.
Why should we look likebeginners?
But that's what you have to dofor growth.
And the fact that he came up toyou without, by the way,
(48:35):
telling you what he was about todo.
He just went right into it,which is brilliant, and he just
processed what you were tellinghim and immediately used it, and
he was like I don't care if youthink this shit's not funny.
Maybe you're not my ultimateaudience that I actually want to
perform this for.
Maybe you're just my tester,right?
Brett Baer (48:57):
Yeah, and I'm going to get from you what I can and
it's going to be filed into myhuman computer and I'm going to
come out with a new output forthe next person based on the
feedback you gave me, and I'mgoing to try it again.
You know, I'll say somethingabout your beginner thing.
I'll just I'll let you know alittle thing.
I was terrified to come on thepodcast today, because it's
(49:21):
scary to put myself out herelike this, and I was in a panic
but I'm always in a panic aboutauditions or meetings or, you
know, pitches or whatever.
So I'm used to it at this pointand I've like kind of worked on
the muscle of kind of like okay, okay, you're going to go
through this process, you'regoing to go through this, you're
going to go down seven minutesbefore and you're going to go
(49:41):
blah, blah, blah, blah.
So I have learned to cope withthe pain and the fear of failure
well enough to actually show upand click on the link to start
the podcast with you.
But it wasn't easy and I thinkthat's part of the thing too is
(50:01):
recognizing you know what it'shard.
It's hard to be vulnerable,it's hard to put oneself out
there, and if you're going to bethe storyteller in a situation,
if you're going to try toconnect with people, you're
going to have to share a littlebit and you're going to have to
get vulnerable and personal.
And then you have to just kindof say you know what, and it's
sort of what we've been talkingabout all along this is me and
(50:25):
I'm good enough for me.
And you might not like me atthe end of the story you might
be bored, you might not care,you might think I'm rambling,
you might think this, but youknow what.
This is who I am, this is whatI got.
Somebody will like it, somebodywill love it and it might not
be you, but I got to give it mybest shot.
And then the more comfortableyou get with the process of
(50:46):
saying I'm going to jump in hereand just I know I think I can
entertain you.
I mean, I think for me that'sultimately the largest goal is
entertainment.
Because you know you say themoral story.
I know you often ask in thepodcast like, do it's every
story have to have a moral?
And that you know I think no,they don't.
But you could probably find amoral in any story if you look
(51:08):
for it.
On the other hand, I kind ofsubscribe to the Seinfeld
approach of like, no hugging, nolearning.
That it's maybe not our job whenwe're telling a story or
writing a story to proselytizeor to teach a moral or a lesson.
Our job is to tell anentertainment that then people
(51:31):
can derive from it what it meansto them, and then somebody's
going to have a differentopinion or a different takeaway,
and that's the good thing.
But what you can offer is ahuman truth that then can be
absorbed by the audience, andthen that's their business.
That's sort of their like.
I had English teachers to saychewing gum should be done in
the privacy of one's own bedroom, and I'm like what?
(51:53):
But maybe deciding what themoral of the story is also
something that should be done inthe privacy of one's own
bedroom, because I think whenyou write to it you're not doing
the fundamental job ofcapturing an audience and taking
them on a ride.
Max Chopovsky (52:12):
Perhaps Correct, and if you're good enough as a
storyteller to write a storythat has that bottom note, then
you don't need to sort of cramthe moral down the audience's
throat, because different peoplemight come away with different
morals.
Some people might not see atakeaway at all, and that's okay
(52:32):
.
What is one of your favoritebooks?
That is a really good storythat gets storytelling right.
Brett Baer (52:43):
Well, if you don't mind, I'm going to cheat a
little bit.
And it is a book, but it's aplay.
It's a book.
That is a play that I read whenI was in high school.
I found it in my high schoolpublic library, which is
stunning to me in this day andit brings Chicago back around
again too which is AmericanBuffalo by David Mamet.
Which the thing about DavidMamet that I fell in love with
(53:05):
as a kid, besides all the swearwords, which are just beautiful,
luscious sentences of foulmouth genius, but what Mamet
gets so right and is such a, bythe way, I want to say, I know
that politically and otherwise,david might be sort of like a
lightning rod right now, butlet's just talk about the work.
(53:27):
I don't know the man.
The writing is so lean and sotight and so unfat that reading
and understanding AmericanBuffalo or Glengarry Glen Ross,
especially the stage version, issuch great tutelage in terms of
(53:49):
getting to the point, cuttingwhat's unnecessary, leaving the
audience to fill in the blanks,the pauses, like the pincher
pauses that Mamet adapted.
We joke about pincher pauses,but it's like what's not written
becomes what is written.
And I'll tell you, I'll giveyou a quick story real quick.
When I was a senior in college Iwas like what am I going to do
(54:11):
with my life?
David Mamet was my idol.
I was like I'll go work forDavid Mamet.
And so I wrote David Mamet likea six page letter just gushing
about how important he was to me, and I sent it.
I got an address for a movie hewas working on called Things
Change, and I sent him this sixpage letter Please, if there's
(54:32):
anything that I could do for you, I don't even need to get paid
blah, blah, just use this, usethat, use that.
It was on and on and on.
So about a month later I comehome to my rental house at USC
and I open my mailbox and insideis a letter with the Things
Change stationery, and typed upin the upper corner is just the
(54:56):
word Mamet.
I freaked out.
I was like oh my God, like youcould I still have the letter,
obviously.
And the envelope, which you cansee, I ripped open as if I was
like yeah, so the letter.
Basically, I'll quote it to you, it won't take long.
He says Dear Mr Bear, thank youfor your kind note.
Unfortunately, I have noposition to offer you at this
(55:17):
time, but I appreciate youwriting and wish you luck in the
future.
Sincerely, david Mamet.
And to me, that was my firstlesson in writing that came at
the hand of David Mamet, whichwas dude I didn't need six pages
and the fact that he wrote backat all.
(55:38):
In my silly little mind I takea lesson from it, from Mr Mamet.
He might have just been likeI'll write the kid a note, but
to me the lesson was calm down,just keep it simple, stupid.
Max Chopovsky (55:54):
Get to the point, get out, write six pages, sleep
on it and then convince it tothree, sleep on it again and
then cut it in half until youhave a half a page and you'll
realize how much superfluousshit it was in that original six
pages.
Oh, I'd be embarrassed to readwhat I wrote.
I mean, that is normal for acreative.
(56:15):
When you read V1, when you'reon V4, you're like, oh my God,
that was dog shit.
In fact, I once flew to NewYork for the day to see Glenn
Gary Glen Ross when Al Pacinoreprised his role and I waited
for him out back with theprogram and he signed it for me.
(56:35):
Oh, how cool.
I just remember because I amsuch a big fan of the dialogue
in that movie.
Along with so to me it's thethree finance movies Glenn Gary,
glen Ross, wall Street andBoiler Room, and this was before
Billions, right.
So it means fantastic,fantastic, really tight dialogue
and just to see Pacino up there, it was, oh my God, it was
(57:00):
worth every.
It was unbelievable.
Brett Baer (57:03):
I saw Peter Falk play the Jack Lemon role in
Chicago on stage.
Yeah, oh, and I don't know ifyou know this, but this is
another writing thing too.
But you know that Alec Baldwinmonologue from the movie was not
in the original play but it wasso successful, became such a
powerful kind of memorablemoment that Mammet then
(57:23):
incorporated it into the stageplay.
But it is not in the originalPulitzer winning theater piece.
Wow.
Max Chopovsky (57:30):
He pulled the Tracy Morgan.
Brett Baer (57:32):
Yes, he did Exactly.
Hey, that's working.
I'm going to put it in, yeah.
Max Chopovsky (57:37):
Last question for you If there is one thing you
could say to your 20-year-oldself, what would it be?
Brett Baer (57:46):
Oh boy, relax, have fun, have faith, trust.
It's all going to be okay.
You'll get everything thatyou're meant to get and there's
no sense fighting for the thingsyou think you were meant to get
(58:06):
that are not your destiny.
So just have a good time andstop worrying and angsting so
much.
It's all going to be fine,you're going to be okay.
Max Chopovsky (58:20):
Enjoy the ride.
Yes, enjoy the ride For whatit's worth.
It is never too late for thatadvice for anyone listening ever
.
Brett Baer (58:31):
Yeah, I'll tell you, from my ripe old age of almost
57 now, I'm still teachingmyself that every day.
Or when I say teaching, tryingto teach, I should say because
I'm not learning, I'm stillangsting.
Max Chopovsky (58:46):
Most important thing is the effort.
That's all part of the journey.
Well, that does it, my friendEmmy, Award-winning producer and
writer Brett Baer.
Thank you for being on the show.
Brett Baer (59:00):
Thank you, max.
I had a great time.
You have the best voice inpodcasting, so soothing.
Max Chopovsky (59:05):
I appreciate it For show notes and more.
Head over to MossPodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was Moro of the Story.
I'm Max Jepowsky.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
Thanks for watching.
I'll see you next time.
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