Excuse me, I hate to interrupt: Bestselling author Adam Rubin on the bold move that changed his life
January 11, 2024 • 50 mins
Long before writing children's classics like Dragons Love Tacos and Those Darn Squirrels, Adam Rubin was living the bachelor life in New York City. Life was full of possibilities.
One night, Adam and a friend were enjoying a bottle of sake at the bar of a small Japanese restaurant in Williamsburg when a group of women walked in and grabbed a table. Every time Adam looked over, one of the women caught his gaze.
Brave from the sake, he decided to say hello. It would be one of the most consequential decisions of his life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Max Chopovsky (00:02):
This is Moral of the Story Interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
On your host, max Jepofsky.
Today's guest is Adam Rubin,bestselling author, magician,
improv comedian, lover of funkmusic, winner of laughing
competitions, a fluent speakerof Japanese after three glasses
(00:23):
of sake and, above all, astoryteller, on a mission to
ensure that the art form staysalive and well for generations
to come.
Join me as we dissect andreconstruct Adam's prolific
journey, like a surgeon cuttingfor the very first time.
Once upon a time in a magicalland called Hudson Valley, there
was a little boy named AdamRubin who loved creativity as
(00:45):
much as his dad hated thesquirrels that feasted on his
backyard bird feeders.
More on that later.
Adam has always embraced thesilly and playful in life.
He managed to hang on to thatirreverence as he grew up,
channeling his creativity into avisual communications degree
from Washington University in StLouis, where he studied
advertising.
As an aside, since we graduatedonly a year apart, we might
(01:08):
have even met in college andbecome the best the friends had
watched you not waitlisted yourstruly, but I digress While at
the school that waitlisted me.
I'm over it, I promise.
Adam fell in love with improv,starting the group Suspicious of
Whistlers, which continues toperform to this day, after
graduating, at a move to Chicago, where he worked at Leo Burnett
, writing McDonald's Happy Mealcommercials by day and immersing
(01:31):
himself in its rich improvcomedy scene by night.
Audiences were treated toAdam's storytelling talents and
comedic sensibilities at theAnnoyance Theater and IO, and
the creative director may wellhave ridden off into the
proverbial sunset on hisproverbial stallion, but one day
a mutual friend introduced Adamto the man who would become his
closest collaborator and withwhom Adam would dive headfirst
(01:53):
into a career that not even hisvivid imagination had
contemplated children's bookauthor.
Their first collaboration,those Darn Squirrels, inspired
by those darn squirrels that hisdad was so fond of, would go on
to win a Borders OriginalVoices Award and inspire a TDS
anthology appreciated by kidsand adults alike.
Adam stayed in the ad worlduntil he had multiple books on
(02:16):
the bestseller list, at whichpoint he thought to himself self
I think it's time we go and dothis book thing for real, for
real.
And so he did, writing suchclassics as RoboSauce, gladys,
the Magic Chicken, elChupacabras and Dragons Love
Tacos, a book that I read to arousing reception from my
daughter's first grade class.
(02:37):
This could have easily been thefinal act in Adam's journey, but
no, because magic, you see,adam believes that writing is
where the magic is.
Yes, but magic was the writingon Adam's wall before actual
writing was in his life.
It's a 12 year old.
At summer camp, adam wasastonished by his friend's magic
trick involving buttons jumpingfrom hand to hand.
(02:59):
Adam being Adam, he could notlet it go, leading to sleepless
nights spent studying theentirety of Mark Wilson's
Encyclopedia of Magic.
This obsession would ignite theflame that, although perhaps
dormant during college, came outin force when Adam quit his
agency job and found himselfwith time on his hands.
The fan of impossible objects,mechanical puzzles and optical
(03:20):
illusions joined the art of play, a company started by his two
friends that he helped expandinto a full fledged wonder
emporium that embraces power ofcuriosity and gives Adam the
opportunity to create objectsand puzzles that allow him to
share his favorite emotionastonishment with curious minds
the world over, and, in hiscapacity as a magician, adam has
(03:41):
worked with legends such asDavid Blaine, david Copperfield
and others.
As this is now approaching oneof the longest bios, I've read
on the show and I'm starting tofeel like that award winner
whose thank yous are gettingexcessive when the producers are
about to cut the mic.
Here are a few more randomfacts about Adam that you should
probably know.
I'm officially going to bulletpoints.
He released the salsa tocommemorate the 10 year
anniversary of Dragon's LoveTacos no, it was not spicy.
(04:03):
During the pandemic, heco-created Bizarre Brooklyn, an
immersive theater experience inthe history of the borough.
He currently has a Jack in theBox puzzle on Kickstarter, so
you should pre-order that now,as it will probably win an award
.
So Adam Rubin, doing his partto make sure that we are raising
a generation of untamedcreatives and ferociously
curious intellectuals.
Welcome to the show.
Adam Rubin (04:24):
Thank you.
Four minutes and 30 secondsFull life, probably more
detailed than I remember.
Well, I am glad that you timedit, because I do feel like it
was probably one of the longerbios I've done and completely
worth it.
Yeah, well, thank you forhaving me.
Max Chopovsky (04:39):
It's a pleasure to be here, of course, I do have
a very important questionbefore we get started, which is
should we actually be suspiciousof Whistlers and, if so, why?
Adam Rubin (04:50):
Well, I think the generation is following mine,
which is now 15 years orsomething like that.
Is it coming up on 20 years?
Might be, I don't know, thatyou'd like the name very much.
They find it to be a bit of atongue twister, suspicious of
Whistlers, and so there'sdefinitely been some controversy
(05:11):
over the name in the morerecent years and, from what I
know, younger people refer tothe group as Spish, which makes
me want to puke.
But hey, you've got to defer toyouth.
So there's now.
So the original idea, I guess,was just some little cartoon of
a guy whistling with an axbehind his back.
It's funny.
(05:31):
You bring up whistling, though,because it's something I wish I
was better at.
It's something I've alwayswanted to be great at, and I've
never been able to figure outhow to make that really loud
sound like Mom in the Park and aLot of Disneyland or that
sonorous melody like Andrew Birdcan do.
So I'm interested in whistlinglessons.
(05:51):
If anybody that listens to thishas an expertise there, please
contact me.
Max Chopovsky (05:56):
If any listener is a whistler.
That is a skill that I havetried multiple times to acquire
and failed miserably.
Each time there is thewhistling just with your mouth,
which I guess all whistling iswith your mouth.
But this one is without yourfingers and I can do like one
note if I'm lucky.
But I can kind of sometimeswhistle when I put my middle and
(06:18):
index fingers into my mouth,but then I don't usually do that
because then I feel like I haveto wash my hands before I do
that, which kind of defeats thepurpose of using it in the
moment when you immediately needto whistle very urgently.
So yeah, I'll definitely takewhoever offers up on the lessons
as well.
Adam Rubin (06:38):
Whistling lessons wanted Whistling lessons wanted?
Max Chopovsky (06:41):
Yes, consider the ad posted.
So you are here to tell us astory Before we begin.
Do you want to set the stage?
Is there anything we shouldknow?
Adam Rubin (06:51):
As you had mentioned , I was in Chicago for a solid
seven years, really enjoyed thatcity, love that place, but at
some point I moved back east,where I grew up and was living
in New York, so I had to stopwearing fleeces to bars and I
had to get on Instagram and allthis sort of stuff that you had
to do in New York in 2011, ifyou were of the dating age and a
(07:12):
single person out there.
Tinder was brand new, I think,so it was an exciting time in
New York.
I was probably around 33 yearsold when this story takes place.
I had recently quit my job as acreative drinker at Firstborn,
so I'm living it up at thispoint.
(07:32):
I had just become a full-timeauthor, I'm single in New York
and I don't know what the hellI'm going to do next.
That's the state I'm in at thebeginning of this story.
Max Chopovsky (07:43):
I love it.
Adam Rubin (07:44):
All right, let's get into it.
Tell me a story.
So my good friend, corey Mints,who you mentioned in your
introduction, the friend whointroduced me to Daniel Selmari,
a guy who changed the course ofmy life entirely and a great
friend, is the kind of New Yorkpersonality that just can't walk
into a room or get on a subwaycar without recognizing someone
that he knows.
He knows all the people in thecity, what's going on, where to
(08:07):
go, all the fun events, and thatevening he had invited me to go
to an exhibition of pizza boxartwork that was put on by a guy
named Scott who does Scott'sPizza Tours here in New York.
He's a pizza expert,world-class pizza aficionado.
He collects the pizza boxesthat pizzas come in, and he had
(08:31):
decorated a gallery with allthese pizzas.
It was great.
It was cool to see they're fromall over the world, different
languages, different art styles.
It was very quirky and fun and,needless to say, there was a
lot of free pizza at this event.
So we stuffed our faces,admired the pizza boxes and then
, when we left the gallery, itwas like 8 o'clock at night and
we didn't know what to do.
We're just full.
(08:52):
So the only thing we couldthink of.
At that time we were inWilliamsburg walking around.
Neither one of us lived aroundthere, but we thought what's
good to drink when you're fullof pizza?
Sake, it's the lightestcrispiest.
Let's go find some sake, drinksome sake to add it to the pizza
in our bellies.
(09:13):
Little Google search and wewind up at a place I've never
been before and have never beensince called Bozu Japanese place
in Williamsburg.
And when we get to the doorthey say sorry, we're fully
booked, it's totally crowded,there's no way we can get seats.
We say OK, that's all right,we'll hang out for five minutes
and see if something opens up.
(09:33):
Just at that moment, two guysget up from the bar and we get
our seats at the bar, order abottle of sake and we're sitting
there happily, feeling like,hey, the night couldn't get any
better.
Well, in walks this group of sixwomen tall, beautiful, loud,
laughing, and they get seated atthis table in the middle of the
(09:54):
restaurant and everybody'slooking at them because they're
making a lot of noise andthey're all dressed to the nines
and they're just.
They're attracting a lot ofattention.
But I notice that every time Iglance over there, there's one
woman in particular, thisdark-haired woman with these
piercing eyes, and every time Ilook over there she catches me
(10:16):
looking, and the first time I'ma little embarrassed, and the
second time I'm intrigued, andthe third time I figure.
Well, that means she's lookingat me too.
So we finish this bottle ofsake and I'm feeling brave and I
tell my friend hey, you leavefirst, ok, and I'm going to hang
back just for a minute so I cango talk to this woman.
(10:38):
And he says don't do that,don't interrupt these ladies.
They're right of their ownbusiness.
They're trying to have a nicemeal.
This is not the kind of thing Iwould normally do, but I just
felt like there was some sort ofconnection and I would have
kicked myself if I left withoutdoing something about it.
So he goes and I, as casuallyas possible, walk over to the
(11:03):
table and say excuse me, I hateto interrupt, but I couldn't
help but notice you from acrossthe restaurant and I wanted to
come over and introduce myself.
And the table just goes quiet.
You know her five friends justlike stop talking.
And I was just talking to her,I wasn't talking to anybody else
.
And she's like taken a back fora minute and she says oh well,
(11:26):
I'm Tamice.
And at that moment, like a lotof the listeners now, I had no
idea what she said.
I didn't catch that name at all, I wasn't.
I now know what it was, but atthat point I just was, I was
like keep moving forward, don'tlet it, don't let that trip you
up.
I said I don't usually doanything like this, but would
you, I'd love to take you outfor a cup of coffee sometime or
(11:46):
a drink if you're interested.
And she turns a little red andsays I'm flattered, but I live
in California.
I live in LA, so you know I can.
I said oh, all right, well, itwas so nice to meet you.
Sorry again for interruptingyour dinner.
I hope you, you all, have alovely time.
And I leave and I was feelingpretty good because she says she
(12:10):
was flattered.
So I go outside and Corey'swaiting there just dying to hear
what I have.
What happened, how'd it go?
I said it went pretty well.
She didn't throw a drink in myface and that's it.
That's it.
He says hey, it's like WayneGretzky says you miss 100% of
the shots you don't take.
And I agree.
(12:32):
So we kind of walk off into thenight, kind of a buzz with the
possibility of New York.
And all of a sudden I hear Adam, adam and I turn around and
there's this gorgeous womanstanding in the doorway waving
at me, and it's to me, and shesays hey, you know I might move
(12:53):
back.
Why don't you take my number?
And I do, and I took her number.
She goes back inside and I turnaround and Corey says what did
you say to that woman?
I was like I don't know, I justintroduced myself.
I just I asked her out forcoffee and all of a sudden we
hear Corey, corey.
I turn around and there's thisother beautiful woman standing
(13:16):
in the doorway beckoning toCorey and Corey looks at me and
I look at Corey and he walks up.
He's dumbfounded.
He says yes, she says youforgot your credit card and she
hands him his credit card back.
And the best part of this storyis that I'm now married to
Tamice and we've been marriedfor five years now.
Max Chopovsky (13:38):
Oh my God, is Corey married to the woman that
came out with the credit card?
Adam Rubin (13:42):
No, she was just a waitress at the restaurant.
He is married.
He's got two beautiful children.
He now lives in LA.
Max Chopovsky (13:50):
Oh, that's funny.
Yeah, okay, that's the storyfrom your perspective.
Now how would Tamice tell thestory from her perspective,
because I know you've talkedabout this?
Adam Rubin (14:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So she has a couple of detailsthat she likes to add, and I
didn't mention this because Ithink it's impossible for me to
have known this and I think itspoils the ending of the story
if you know that.
I know the whole, you know bothsides, but she says that she
got up at some point during thedinner because we were like, we
were making eye contact and atsome point during the dinner she
(14:21):
got up and walked by me becauseI had to.
She had to walk by us to get tothe bathroom and she walked by
me.
She says, to check the vibe andthe energy you know, to see if
they're like, do a chemistrytest somehow, just in walking by
me.
I guess you could.
I don't know if, I don't knowwhat it was about, but that was
an important, that was animportant test for her and I
(14:41):
passed.
I guess we were definitelychecking each other out, and so
I felt I wouldn't normallyapproach a strange woman in the
middle of dinner with herfriends, but it felt like there
was a little bit of aninvitation.
The part that I didn't hear iswhen I left the restaurant after
I had said her, her, the tablestayed silent for a while and
(15:02):
they're all looking at her andshe says, should I go after him?
And they all go yes, go afterhim.
So it was.
She got a little peer pressureto follow up, to make that bold
move of the beckoning to me onthe threshold of the restaurant.
And the other point that shelikes to make, which I don't
know is, I guess is relevant, iswhen she said take my number.
(15:24):
I took out a pen from my pocketand went to write it on my hand
and she said don't you have aniPhone?
And luckily I did.
I think if I had a Samsung shewouldn't have gone out with me.
This is definitely an Appleaficionado, I guess.
So I guess that's.
That's such a weird preferencepeople have.
But I have heard from othersingle people that if they get a
(15:46):
green bubble back on iMessage,that it's a no go, which is a
strange, very strange dealbreaker, which is a little sad,
because what if the other personjust didn't have reception and
it had to be sent as a textmessage?
Or if maybe they accidentallysent out of their iCloud?
Like, how many marriages neverhappened because somebody just
(16:06):
didn't have reception and gotback a green bubble?
This is just one more reason weshould all be using WhatsApp.
Yeah, I agree.
It just takes the guesswork outof it's technology agnostic.
Max Chopovsky (16:16):
Yeah, so when you were sitting at the bar, did
you have your backs to them, orwas it one of those bars where
you could just kind of look offto the sides.
Adam Rubin (16:24):
It was a corner bar.
I guess I didn't paint thepicture entirely, but it was a
corner bar so I could see theirtable without turning around.
I could look across therestaurant and see the
restaurant, whereas my friend,we were at the corner of the bar
, so we kind of had a goodvantage point for the whole
place.
Max Chopovsky (16:42):
Ah, isn't it so interesting how, if we are just
open to certain opportunitiesthat present themselves in life,
our lives can take entirelydifferent directions.
Adam Rubin (17:00):
Yeah, well, so that's the evil perspective on
the story in my own head is likewell, what if I had gone up to
more women in bars and just, orat restaurants and just
introduced myself?
What would my life might havebeen like, but I think I got the
right one.
When we first got together, itwas a long distance thing at
first.
It was very romantic and therewas a lot of pining and letters
(17:21):
and all these things and Icouldn't help but thinking about
it like a meteor hitting theearth, these two things
colliding out of the galaxy ofpossibility, of these just the
infinitesimally small chances ofthis happening.
If I hadn't gone to the bar, ifwe hadn't gotten sake, if all
these things that there wasreally no way we would have met.
(17:43):
Otherwise and she was in NewYork but she was in Williamsburg
in the fashion scene and goingto warehouse raves we never
would have met.
That was not the world that Iwas inhabiting.
Or if those two guys didn'thappen to get up from their
chairs Right, if we hadn'tgotten that particular seat at
the bar yeah, I mean where?
Max Chopovsky (18:02):
I was going with.
The comment was what if you hadnot walked up to her?
Not, what if you walked up toall the other women?
Adam Rubin (18:10):
Yeah, it was as cliche as it sounded, it was
absolutely love at first sight.
I wasn't being that vulnerable,even with myself, to admit it,
but at that moment I was likeI'm going to marry that woman.
Wow, you were that sure.
It was like lightning strikes.
You can't help but use thesecliches when you talk about this
sort of stuff, because so manypeople are so.
(18:32):
It's such a passionate subjectthat people have talked about so
many times.
But the only semi-originalthing I can even think of is
that when we met each other,when we started spending time
together, it felt like cominghome and it felt like this was
the place I was supposed to beand it still does, which is nice
.
Max Chopovsky (18:49):
That's a great analogy, and so did you actually
go to California and take herout to coffee, or was it more of
a phone call thing at first?
Adam Rubin (18:59):
She was coming back and forth.
She was working in the fashionindustry as a menswear designer
at the time and she was goingback and forth to China from LA.
So she would often have littlestopovers in New York and she
would make it so that she couldspend a day or two to see her
friends.
And this one particular timeshe was going to spend time with
me, our first date, the firsttime we had seen each other
(19:21):
after that first encounter and Igot crazy trying to find the
right restaurant, where to bookand what to do and just driving
myself insane and trying to getthese tables and calling in
favors and this whole plan ofwhat was going to happen after
it.
She came to my apartment and wenever left, we never went to
dinner, we just hung out andwalked around the neighborhood
(19:42):
and just I don't even know if weate anything.
It was intense.
Max Chopovsky (19:48):
You know what that makes me think of is.
The first experience wasunplanned, sort of sudden, and
very, very organic, and itturned out wonderfully.
It was super unexpected and hadthe best possible ending the
second experience, the date, youtried to recreate the
(20:12):
spontaneity of the firstexperience by controlling
everything, finding the bestrestaurant, the best table,
calling in all your favors,because now there were things at
stake.
Adam Rubin (20:24):
There was an expectation, or I don't know
what.
There was at least time tothink.
Max Chopovsky (20:28):
Well, you also were probably a little bit
anxious about can I live up tothese expectations that maybe
she has of me now that I'm thissort of spontaneous, mysterious
guy that gets up from the barand says I never do this, but
can I take you out to coffee?
She was smitten after youpassed her chemistry test right,
(20:50):
the walking chemistry test,which the walk by is probably a
thing and life again dictatedthat no, you can't control these
things, and so you ended up notdoing any of that stuff and
again had a super spontaneous,organic evening where you just
walked around and enjoyed eachother's company.
Adam Rubin (21:10):
Yeah, it's rare to make a romantic connection that
deep with someone, obviously,but it's also rare to make just
any sort of connection where butit happens, it's less rare
where you meet a new person andyou just fall into a
conversation where you're likethis person's going to be my
friend forever.
I love that feeling and I havefriends like that, where we
(21:31):
could sit and do anything, roadtrips, it doesn't matter.
It's the kind of person whereyou're like you don't have to
make a plan because you justknow whatever you do, you're
going to be bullshitting andenjoying each other's company.
It's so immensely no matterwhat that it doesn't really
matter the venue.
Max Chopovsky (21:48):
Totally.
I used to think when I was inhigh school I was not popular at
all.
I mean, I was crazy and alwaysvery loud, but I was kind of
this outcast that was and I'm animmigrant, so English by that
point I had learned it, but Idefinitely didn't understand the
cultural norms or I didn't playsports.
I wasn't in with the cool kids.
(22:09):
I really desperately wanted tobe in with the cool kids Because
I thought that every time theyget together, something profound
happens, some profoundadventure or some incident that
turns into this crazy story thatthen they have these inside
jokes about when they're inschool, like the movies, like
(22:31):
the movies.
What I came to learn later inlife is that actually the
majority of those hangouts arecompletely uneventful and very
unplanned.
You just go over to somebody'shouse and you hang out with them
.
Only after you can accept thefact that the majority of times
(22:55):
you hang out with somebody willbe completely just uneventful
scenarios, only then can youbecome open to some of those
things actually turning intothose crazy stories.
Like when you were in Japan,for example, and you guys were
walking around and all of asudden you learned about this
laughing competition.
You're like, let's go checkthat out and you're like, let's
(23:19):
actually participate in it, andthen you ended up winning it.
That would have never happenedif you were like no, we have to
plan this whole thing out.
We have to do A, b and C beforelunch, then we have lunch at
this place, then we do D, e andF Like that should never happen.
Adam Rubin (23:34):
I think that's the most fun part of traveling.
That's why it's always a goodidea to leave a little bit of
uncertainty in your plan whenyou travel.
I don't like to make too manyplans.
I'll plan a few things.
You need to buy tickets forcertain places or museums, or
take a reservation at arestaurant at some point, but I
won't plan out the whole day,because then you rob yourself of
(23:55):
all those possibilities.
That's the best part aboutexploring the world is not
knowing what you're going tofind.
Max Chopovsky (24:04):
That's exactly right.
I think that's where I got someof my travels wrong.
When I was backpacking throughEurope by myself, I felt like I
needed to plan everything out.
And there's so many things tosee Like if you go to any of the
European capitals, you couldspend a full week on attractions
that all need tickets and youcould plan your entire day out
(24:25):
and leave nothing to chance.
And I think I was souncomfortable with the
uncertainty that if I don't planeverything out, then there's a
chance that I'm not gonna haveany fun.
There's a chance that I'm gonnahave an incredible experience
that can only happenunexpectedly that I planned
everything and it wasn't until Iwas older, when I was like, oh
(24:49):
no, actually you can't planeverything because you can only
walk into a random restaurantand either meet the love of your
life or have an incredibleconversation with the chef, or
learn something new, or run intosomebody that tells you about
some underground thing that'shappening that night and they're
not telling anybody.
That's the only way to do that.
But for a lot of people thathave to have control and they're
(25:11):
worried that if you don't planan amazing evening it will be a
waste of time, they just missout on that.
Adam Rubin (25:20):
Yeah, I think that's sad, but true is, if you
require control, then yourelinquish some of that magic of
the unplanned surprise.
Max Chopovsky (25:34):
Has that changed in you at all?
Adam Rubin (25:37):
No, no, if anything, I'm encouraged to indulge that
attitude even more.
That was part of the thingabout Bazaar Brooklyn was that
it happened during the pandemic.
The Bazaar Brooklyn was aninteractive walking tour, sort
of part historical, part magical.
We used to say that everythingyou hear is true, but not
everything you see is.
And the real reaction we had tositting inside and being stuck
(26:04):
and everything feeling digitaland cold and planned, like you
said, like everything had astarting point in it.
There was almost no spontaneityat that point because of the
situation of the world, and sowe wanted to do this thing.
That felt like there was asurprise around every corner,
that there were infinitepossibilities within walking
(26:26):
distance, and the thesis for theshow was basically certainty is
the enemy of discovery.
So we tried to bring that tolife for people and it was
really nice, I'm sure yeah, Imean, people had to love that
being able to get out and havethis sort of Well, that was the
hardest part, as we wereworkshopping the show with
(26:48):
friends and family.
The first couple of times we hadthis feedback, we would ask for
feedback, and everybody's notewas the same, which was oh, it's
just so great to get out of thehouse.
We're like, okay, yeah, weunderstand the bar is low, but
help us improve.
Max Chopovsky (27:04):
I don't actually care what we do, I just want to
like step outside my front door.
Adam Rubin (27:08):
Yeah, they were just like I got to put on a coat and
like go outside.
I saw other people.
I saw them in real life.
Yeah, irl.
Max Chopovsky (27:17):
I think as a creative you have developed that
muscle really well.
Adam Rubin (27:24):
I mean, you can't really come up with something
you could take a statue orwhatever it was and turn it into
the story that then becomesDragon Love Tacos.
I've got the statue right here.
This thing was sitting on mydad's desk for years throughout
my childhood, and I just alwaysremembered it.
It always struck me and wheredid the taco thing come from?
(27:44):
Well, I thought it kind oflooks like a taco, I think
that's a taco, and it just kindof made sense to me that all
dragons would love tacos and, byextension, there would be this
beautiful tension that theycouldn't eat anything spicy
because of the whole firebreathing dilemma that they have
.
Max Chopovsky (28:05):
Yeah, I mean, if he's representative of dragon
kind, you can extrapolate thatall dragons must love tacos.
You could take an idea likethat.
You could take a little statuelike that.
Or you can take a small ideawith the squirrels and turn it
into a book.
Or you can take an idea andturn it into a magic trick.
So you've worked that muscleextensively, and so it's, I
(28:28):
think, hard for all creatives tolook at a blank slate or a
timeline for a video editor andjust be like.
This can become anything.
This can also become nothing,right?
Adam Rubin (28:40):
Well, there's a big difference between work for hire
and work for pleasure, for sure.
So I was a mercenary for manyyears and I used my skills to
the highest bidder.
I rented my skills to thehighest bidder.
But I was doing a lot of comedyback then and my friends who
were like working at adult videostores and stuff would say, oh
(29:02):
man, I wish I could work inadvertising.
It's so great they werewatching Mad Men or something.
And I would say it's not likeit seems on TV.
Basically, you walk into a room,give somebody your best idea
and then they pay you to watchthem fuck it up.
So it can be heartbreaking ifyou put too much of yourself in
it, and the people I've seen gocrazy in the ad world are the
(29:24):
ones who convince themselvesthat their personal vision is
what the client is paying for,or who convince themselves that
their talent is worthy of thismillion dollar budget that is in
place in order to sell softdrinks.
So you kind of got to keep anemotional distance to it.
(29:45):
Like any work for hire, thereare sometimes our moments when
you make something you're reallyproud of or where it is
important to exercise artisticintegrity for the benefit of all
parties involved.
But you can only fight withpeople so much.
They're the ones trying to sellchicken nuggets or life
(30:06):
insurance or whatever it is, andyou can only give them your
best within that context, likethey want a specific thing and
they will dictate the parameters.
Max Chopovsky (30:19):
I mean, that's exactly how I felt when I had my
video production company.
I started it with thesegrandiose ideas of being this
sought after creative house thatwould get to dictate the
creative vision, and once westarted signing clients like
Google and Capital One, I waslike, wow, look at this.
And then over time I realizedthat a corporate video is a
(30:43):
corporate video is a corporatevideo even if you're doing it
for Capital One.
And after a while it sort ofdawned on me that I was
beginning to lose my passion forthe thing that I loved so much,
which was video, because Ibasically was forced to count
(31:04):
out to the lowest commondenominator and the word that I
used to describe that is tragic,because if you are forced to do
work for hire in the field thatyou're passionate about and you
end up becoming just anothersort of drone in that field, for
me, for a long time, videobecame filmmaking, became a
(31:28):
casualty of that, which reallyis tragic.
It's wonderful that you did notlose your creative spark, that
it wasn't beat out of you by allthe ad agencies where,
ironically, you were supposed toleverage it.
Adam Rubin (31:41):
Well, it's dangerous to do what you love for a
living.
It's when it works out, it'sthe best possible scenario, and
I have friends like that, lotsof friends that do what they
love, and people pay them to doit and they just they're living
the dream.
But I know many other peoplewho, just like you, started with
(32:03):
a great passion for somethingand then it, the light went out
in their eyes.
Now they just their industryhacks in whatever field,
whatever their chosen field, andthey found a new hobby and I
think the lesson in there isthat you have to make weird shit
on the side, whatever it is youdo.
If you do video editing or youdo Copywriting, you have to keep
(32:23):
one foot outside of the officeto Make things that make you
happy, because that's the onlyway to really keep that Spark
alive.
You can do something else youcould do.
You could paint or sing, or, ifyou consider your Profession
creative, I do think it isimportant to have creative
pursuits outside of the office.
(32:45):
Was that the role that comedyplayed for you when you were
working it, you know the yeah,comedy and puzzles and magic and
and Making video sketches anddoing like freelance journalism,
like I just I think it probablywas evident to all my employers
throughout my entire career butlike it was never the most
important thing in my life.
I was there to do a job, theywere paying me to be there and I
was gonna do as as good of ajob as I possibly could do, but
(33:09):
I was not taking that work Homewith me.
I was not staying up late atnight worrying about the pitch
and in some ways I think thatmade me better at the job,
because there was a very I would.
I think clients could feel itand they like to work with me
because they knew that I wasthere to help them and but it
was, there was a greater entity.
(33:29):
It was not like I was some cogin the wheel.
Max Chopovsky (33:31):
It was like I'm here to provide what I can for
you in this context and, if youlet me, we'll make something
great you know that was kind ofthe attitude I had, which is
Potentially off-putting, butmost clients seem to to
appreciate it and I thinkcrucially, your identity was not
tied up in the thing you werecreating at work, which allowed
(33:52):
you to, you know, kind of not becrushed if a client said well,
we don't like that.
Adam Rubin (33:58):
Yeah, and it that's a tricky thing, becoming wrapped
up in the your job description.
It's such a common Question tobe asked the very first time you
meet somebody what do you do?
And to give them that one wordanswer that puts you in a little
box so they can betterunderstand who you are as a
person from then on.
And I don't like that, that somuch, especially because I'm not
(34:22):
sure how to answer the question.
Am I a writer?
Am I a performer?
Am I an inventor?
I don't really know.
Maybe I don't want to answerthem because I don't want to
have to answer it for myself,but just in general, wouldn't it
be nicer to ask somebody whatdo you like to do for fun, the
very first time you meet them,when you know nothing about them
, and say what do you like to dofor fun?
Because if they say I like towatch TV and go to the Gym,
(34:44):
they're probably not that fun.
No offense to anybody who wouldgive those two answers, but
Maybe just for me personally,when somebody says what do you,
I say what do you do for fun?
This?
I go to the gym.
I'm like man, I must be doingit wrong because I am not having
fun if I'm at the gym.
So what's your answer to thatwhen they say, well, what do you
like to do for fun?
There's a million answers forme.
The thing I I'm thinking aboutmost right now, because I'm
(35:07):
sitting by the window and it'sautumn in New York is I love to
walk around and look at thetrees.
I Love to walk around and lookat the trees, especially in
Brooklyn in New York.
There's so many beautiful trees.
There's a lot of London Plaintrees and ginkos and and
Thornless honey locusts andstuff, but there's also, like
Eastern red buds and and Quanzancherry trees and plum trees and
you can find these justbeautiful trees that Explode
(35:29):
with color around these timethis time of year and see there
the way they they drop theleaves on the ground and the way
that they'll just create thesebeautiful colorful canopies over
the streets.
So that's Currently, at thistime of year, one of the things
I like to do for fun, which,again, if you know that about me
, it tells you a little morethan what the IRS you know.
(35:51):
When I'm reporting to the IRS,I think totally and Not to hate
on people that maybe they arereally into some you know shows
on TV and maybe they just liketo live at the gym.
So no hating on those people.
No, hey, no hating.
I have good friends who wouldsay, give one of those answers
probably.
But I think you can tell whenit's when somebody really has to
(36:13):
think about it, like when wasthe last time they had fun?
You know that's good for themto think about too.
It's good to it's good to havefun.
I think even as an adult, Ithink it's important to have fun
.
Max Chopovsky (36:26):
Well, I think that's one of the premises to
everything you've done, which isDon't lose the sense of wonder
that you naturally have as a kid, and don't forget to have a
little fun as an adult, it ishilarious.
Adam Rubin (36:39):
Look, it's.
It's schools fault.
I Don't get to say this whenI'm at at the school which I,
when I visit schools, I Bite mytongue a little bit.
But it's the school's fault.
The kids don't have fun anymore.
I see this illustrated reallyvividly when I give a
presentation at any any schoolpublic school, private school,
(37:00):
montessori school, like Kips orwhatever they.
I mean, like any school.
I say who here likes to draw?
And for whatever reason, everyschool in the world.
When they have an assembly,they put all the kids in the gym
, they put the youngest kids inthe front, then the second grade
, third grade, fourth grade andthen all the way to the back.
I say who likes to draw?
And every kid in the front rowraises their hand and, like most
(37:23):
of the kids in the second rowand then third row, a few hands
there and by the by the time hegets to the back, there's like
one kid with their hand raised.
So that means that love andthat Fearlessness is present in
all kids and we've seen it.
If you have kids, or even ifyou've been around kids like Six
, seven, five, six, seven years,these kids are fearless.
Eight years old they.
They're like I can do that.
(37:44):
I can be a basketball, I can do, they can do anything.
And so that means it's us, thegrown-ups, the school system,
the parents, tv.
You know it's death bycomparison.
It's even when we don't mean todo it.
You say to somebody oh, you'reso good at drawing, and the kid
that's next to them goes Well,shit, I guess I'm not good at
drawing.
And I'm not saying thereshouldn't be gifted in talent
(38:06):
programs, like I'm not sayinglike what was the Ray Bradbury
story?
Like Harrison Bergeron, whatwas that story?
You know what I was?
Like they put the shackles onthat gleaming you know Superman
to make him equal to everybodyelse.
But I just think it is.
There have to be ways where youcan encourage people to do stuff
that makes them happy, even ifthey're not good at it, even if
(38:27):
they're not great at singing.
If they love to sing like, yeah, go for it.
You know, go to karaoke nightand rip it up.
Like enthusiasm is half thebattle.
And I'm not a teacher, I don'thave to be there every single
day.
I'm there for a couple hours ata time.
I get to rile them up and thenleave and not really face any of
the consequences, but anythingI can do to encourage them to
(38:50):
express themselves and do thethings that make them happy, to
do the things that they like,without worrying about getting a
million views or getting a goodgrade or getting praise from
someone else all things that Iam guilty of seeking myself.
But if I can try to encouragethem to just make stuff For no
(39:10):
other reason than for their ownsatisfaction, then I will
consider it a victory For sureit is.
Max Chopovsky (39:17):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean, what happens whenkids get older is there's a
need for conformity andconformity and creativity are
sort of at odds with each other.
Adam Rubin (39:26):
Yeah, you think it's conformity.
You think they just want to belike everybody else.
Max Chopovsky (39:30):
I think that's a part of it.
I mean, if everybody else ispaying attention to the teacher
and one kid is doodling, the kidwho's doodling is the one who
is not, who's out of place,right?
I mean, that's one specificexample, but I do feel like the
arts are underrepresentedbecause, at least historically,
(39:51):
schools have not seen as obviousof a benefit to including, like
an art rich curriculum, andthat's a massive loss.
Adam Rubin (40:01):
I've been to like small schools, classrooms, 10
kids.
They have the same teacher fromkindergarten to sixth grade,
which would be a nightmare forme.
I don't think I could deal withthat.
But and you know, they sing.
Everybody sings at thebeginning of every class.
I went to one place and theywere like we will sing for you
now, and it's a small group,it's like 12 people and me and
(40:22):
they're just singing at me withharmonies and I don't know what
I'm like.
What do I do with my hands?
What am I supposed to do inthis situation?
And there's some kid in theback of that class is like can't
we just do a multiple choicetest?
Like I just want to do somemath, so you can swing in the
other direction too.
It's an impossible task toeducate the masses.
I know that's too pessimistic,it's just we got to go back to
(40:44):
the apprentice, master or mentorprogram.
You know Khan Academy recentlyhas been doing some interesting
things with with AI and in a waythat's using like the Socratic
method.
And there's this God, if Icould remember it, it would.
I would sound so smart rightnow.
But there's this paradoxessentially in education that
says if you have one to oneinstruction, everybody does
(41:06):
better.
Obviously right, not a verysurprising finding.
But the thought between this Ithink they call it con me goes
they can close that gap byproviding both the teachers and
the students with kind of one onone resources that help them to
have that experience of havinga tutor, but without just giving
them the answer.
Max Chopovsky (41:27):
That is a big part of it is kids expect to
have the answers handed to themand they don't like ambiguity,
and so I think that actually ispart of the reason that this is
my theory that more kids don'tgo into the creative arts,
because the creative artsrequires sitting with the
ambiguity and understanding thatambiguity is actually
(41:48):
opportunity, not just a completeand terrifying lack of answers.
Adam Rubin (41:52):
Well, it's also just capitalism is our religion and
we can't.
If somebody says they want tobe a painter, you're like no, no
, no, no, you got to how you'regoing to pay for the things
you're going to want to buy.
There's an enormous amount ofpressure in that regard,
especially as you get towardsthe end of high school.
You're 100% right.
Max Chopovsky (42:11):
I wrote a screenplay for a short film that
I'm actually casting for rightnow, and it has to do with
exactly that, and it's thestruggle between parents and
children around what thechildren want to pursue if it's
at odds with what the parentsbelieve the kids should be
pursuing.
Adam Rubin (42:26):
Oh man, and that's such a.
I'm not a parent, but I canimagine that struggle is never
ending.
Max Chopovsky (42:33):
Never ending.
It's not, because where do youmean?
You, as the guy that comes intothe class and reads to them and
gets them riled up, can youknow?
Even at the pep rally can sortof leave when everybody's
clapping and they're all excitedhey, we can do anything.
This is amazing.
Let's get more hands up, evenin the back row, and then you
leave and they get back to classand they're like okay, hope you
(42:53):
guys had fun.
Now let's talk about mathhomework.
Adam Rubin (42:56):
Yeah, because state testing is coming up and we need
funding for this district,correct?
Yeah, it's no joke.
I don't realize what aprivileged position I have to
come in and be uncle fun andthen leave.
I don't have to get them totake their medicine, but I think
that's important too, for sureit's God's work.
Max Chopovsky (43:18):
Man, you got to keep doing it.
Adam Rubin (43:20):
I see it now because I've been doing these books the
last few years where I askedkids to write me stories, to
write stories and send them tome.
And I've gotten to meet a coupleof those authors around the
country and I can see, and theparents have told me and the
teachers have told me, that itdoes make a big difference when
(43:42):
they feel like there is anopportunity or an invitation to
create something or makesomething, because and it's an
open-ended opportunity, which isalways a challenge and one of
the big challenges for adultstoo when you say, all right, I
want to have a hobby outside, Iwant to have a creative project
outside of work, and then youstare at this blank page, like
(44:03):
well, what the hell am I goingto do?
Like well, but what you know?
What should I do?
That can be equally paralyzingas the client's demands or the
constructs of your job, but it'sworth figuring out, it's worth
putting something down and justgoing with that for a while
until something else comes along, because the happiest people I
know are the ones that makestuff they love, even if they're
(44:26):
not good at it, even if nobodyelse likes it.
They got a closet full ofpaintings They'll never show
anybody and they're thrilledabout it.
Max Chopovsky (44:34):
Yeah, well as the Rick Rubin would tell you you
got to put out a show, you gotto show those paintings to the
world.
Adam Rubin (44:41):
Yeah, I'm of two minds about that.
Whether you got a show evermade, I mean yeah, I don't know.
That is the necessity.
I think if you want to be great, you have to show, you have to
show people and you have to getfeedback and you have to grow
that way.
But look at Emily Dickinson shenever showed anybody and she
was great.
So I don't know if she'd bemortified, maybe that we know
(45:01):
about her or read any of thethings that she wrote.
But there's probably somemental health issues going on in
there too.
Max Chopovsky (45:07):
Yeah, so let's go back to the story with Tamice
for a few minutes.
Adam Rubin (45:13):
Yeah, so I think we're going to go back to the
way, a Puerto Rican sort oftruncation of Artemis the God of
War, the goddess of hunt Sorry,not the God of War.
Athena, I think, was the guy,but Artemis the goddess of the
hunt and wilderness.
Her father took Artemis andchanged it to Tamice.
Well, she certainly lived up tothat name when she stood in the
(45:35):
door.
I don't think so.
She's loosing some arrowsstraight into my heart.
Max Chopovsky (45:40):
That's exactly right, didn't even take some,
which is one.
So if you think back to thatstory, what would you say is the
moral of that story?
Adam Rubin (45:48):
I think the moral of the story is it never hurts to
ask.
It never hurts to ask and I'vegiven this advice to people
professionally, personally Ifyou ask nicely, with humility,
very rarely does anybody get mad.
If you need help with something, if you want to go to something
(46:10):
, you're trying to get access tosomething or even just to
connect with someone, it neverhurts to ask, as long as you ask
with kindness and humility.
Yeah, worst they can say is now, that's it.
Max Chopovsky (46:24):
Now you write stories for a living.
You also tell stories for aliving through physical objects.
What do great stories have incommon?
Adam Rubin (46:36):
I think that all great stories have some element
of surprise From the verybeginning.
I guess you could tell a greatstory and it's a cliche story
like boy meets girl, which iswhat my story is right Boy meets
girl, girl meets boy.
They both live happily everafter.
(46:56):
Maybe there's no surprise there, but it's in the details.
Then the surprise is in details, even like every great rom-com
you got to have, even though youknow exactly where it's going.
Maybe there has to be somesurprise, but perhaps those
aren't great stories.
So I think I'm going to stickwith my every great story.
It has some element of surprise.
Max Chopovsky (47:12):
Do you feel like every story has to have a moral
and if it, doesn't have a moral,is it still a good story?
Adam Rubin (47:19):
I think a moral is very subjective.
I think, if most stories thatare written with a specific
moral in mind are didactic andhollow, that you could tell the
same story to 100 people andevery one of them will tell you
it means something else.
Look at Lolita, right, I meanyou can look at the Bible.
Hell, you can make a millioninterpretations from a single
(47:42):
chunk of text.
So my experience personally asa reader and a writer is that
when you start trying to, whenyou want your audience to,
you're trying to impart somesort of specific message or
moral, or it's a fable, it's awindow dressing for a sermon,
yep yep, that's a good point.
Max Chopovsky (48:06):
So I know that you were influenced and inspired
by books like Stray Gagnoniaand the Giving Tree and I am
wondering if you think of acouple of books that get
storytelling really right, thatjust nail the art of
storytelling.
Adam Rubin (48:23):
What would those books be?
I would say one of my favoritebooks is the Amazing Adventures
of Cavalier and Clay.
I love that book.
It is a Venn diagram of all thethings that I really like too.
So comic books and New YorkCity and Magic Tricks, and it's
just.
I'm not going to throwhomosexuality and the Holocaust
in there just because I don'twant to.
(48:43):
I mean that is in the book butthat's not necessarily.
Those aren't necessarily mycore areas of interest, but I do
love that book.
The characters are just sovivid and this tragic historical
situation is so.
It's told with such compassionbut also with real consequence.
So, and then the struggle ofbeing gay at this time, and I
(49:08):
mean the whole thing is justreally beautiful and wonderful,
great.
I mean I don't have to tell youone of the Pulitzer Prize, so
don't take my word for it Allright, well, so last question,
adam, if you could say one thingto your 20 year old self what
would it be?
I tend not to focus on myregrets, but I know there's like
(49:29):
at least three moments in mylife where I shouldn't have said
or done something that Ispecifically did or said not
with any sort of graveconsequence, but just would have
avoided a lot of awkwardness ordisappointment for me or
someone else, and none of themare springing to mind at this
moment.
That's good to hear.
I saw this thread on Redditrecently and it's a sort of
(49:54):
flippant answer, but I guess Iwould have said like by Apple
stock.
Max Chopovsky (50:01):
I was waiting for something a little deeper than
that, considering how thoughtfulyou are.
Adam Rubin (50:05):
To be honest, I don't have any great regrets.
You know, I don't know what Iwould have told myself at 20
that would have changed my path.
I think you'd run into thattime travel conundrum and maybe
I'm overthinking this where nowall of a sudden you become
obsessed with this thing.
You know, I would probably justbe like don't worry about it,
(50:26):
dude, just keep.
You know, have fun.
That would be.
You know, keep at it.
But I wouldn't have needed totell myself that at 20 because I
was firmly believing in thatidea at that time.
So yeah, I don't know.
I feel like the people thathave a really quick answer to
(50:46):
that probably have some real,specific moment of regret they
would like to avoid.
Max Chopovsky (50:53):
That's really interesting.
Yeah, I mean, you'd besurprised how many people's
quick answer is just keep going.
Adam Rubin (51:01):
Just keep going, like you need encouragement,
like they were.
They were struggling at 20.
Max Chopovsky (51:05):
There's so much uncertainty when you're younger
and there's so many things youdon't have the answers for.
And a lot of people are notokay with uncertainty because
they don't know.
They're not sure how it's allgoing to turn out.
And that's why I think a lot ofpeople say, yes, we have to set
aside the grandfather paradox,but they say to themselves their
past selves are.
What they would say is hey,it's going to turn out okay.
Adam Rubin (51:28):
You know what I would tell myself now?
I just thought of it.
There was a recreation of DrHooker's impossibilities.
That happened at the LA MagicHistory Conference and I didn't
go and I really I wish I hadgone to that.
That was the inspiration forBizarre Brooklyn.
Actually, that trick, thatperformance that happened just
around the corner here inBrooklyn, in Brooklyn Heights,
(51:49):
by Dr Samuel Hooker and theapparatus and the whole thing
was recreated.
It's one of the best, mostimpenetrable secrets in magic
and two guys figured out, gotall the stuff and made it happen
again and it lived up to all ofthe historical documentation
and fool teller and David Blaineand David Copperfield all
(52:10):
walked out of the room justflabbergasted.
I didn't go for some stupid assreason, who knows.
Max Chopovsky (52:17):
But you did ask to me to have coffee with you.
Adam Rubin (52:20):
I did ask to me to have coffee with me.
Max Chopovsky (52:23):
So I think, all in all, you won.
Well, adam Rubin, that does it.
My friend, bestselling author,magician, comedian and overall
highly curious and playfulindividual.
Adam Rubin (52:35):
Thank you for being on the show man, Thanks for
having me.
Max, Thanks for the greatquestions.
I hope all your listeners founda clear and resonant moral to
this story Absolutely.
Max Chopovsky (52:46):
I'm sure they did .
I think, by the time this airs,the Jack in the Box puzzle now
a Kickstarter campaign that, bythe way, has blown past the
scope of $10,000 by somethinglike 2400% will be live.
So definitely check out the artplay for that, and that will be
(53:10):
it for this episode.
For Showmelton More, head overto maspodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was Moral of the Story.
I'm Max Drupowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
This is Moral of the Story Interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
On your host, max Jepofsky.
Today's guest is Adam Rubin,bestselling author, magician,
improv comedian, lover of funkmusic, winner of laughing
competitions, a fluent speakerof Japanese after three glasses
(00:23):
of sake and, above all, astoryteller, on a mission to
ensure that the art form staysalive and well for generations
to come.
Join me as we dissect andreconstruct Adam's prolific
journey, like a surgeon cuttingfor the very first time.
Once upon a time in a magicalland called Hudson Valley, there
was a little boy named AdamRubin who loved creativity as
(00:45):
much as his dad hated thesquirrels that feasted on his
backyard bird feeders.
More on that later.
Adam has always embraced thesilly and playful in life.
He managed to hang on to thatirreverence as he grew up,
channeling his creativity into avisual communications degree
from Washington University in StLouis, where he studied
advertising.
As an aside, since we graduatedonly a year apart, we might
(01:08):
have even met in college andbecome the best the friends had
watched you not waitlisted yourstruly, but I digress While at
the school that waitlisted me.
I'm over it, I promise.
Adam fell in love with improv,starting the group Suspicious of
Whistlers, which continues toperform to this day, after
graduating, at a move to Chicago, where he worked at Leo Burnett
, writing McDonald's Happy Mealcommercials by day and immersing
(01:31):
himself in its rich improvcomedy scene by night.
Audiences were treated toAdam's storytelling talents and
comedic sensibilities at theAnnoyance Theater and IO, and
the creative director may wellhave ridden off into the
proverbial sunset on hisproverbial stallion, but one day
a mutual friend introduced Adamto the man who would become his
closest collaborator and withwhom Adam would dive headfirst
(01:53):
into a career that not even hisvivid imagination had
contemplated children's bookauthor.
Their first collaboration,those Darn Squirrels, inspired
by those darn squirrels that hisdad was so fond of, would go on
to win a Borders OriginalVoices Award and inspire a TDS
anthology appreciated by kidsand adults alike.
Adam stayed in the ad worlduntil he had multiple books on
(02:16):
the bestseller list, at whichpoint he thought to himself self
I think it's time we go and dothis book thing for real, for
real.
And so he did, writing suchclassics as RoboSauce, gladys,
the Magic Chicken, elChupacabras and Dragons Love
Tacos, a book that I read to arousing reception from my
daughter's first grade class.
(02:37):
This could have easily been thefinal act in Adam's journey, but
no, because magic, you see,adam believes that writing is
where the magic is.
Yes, but magic was the writingon Adam's wall before actual
writing was in his life.
It's a 12 year old.
At summer camp, adam wasastonished by his friend's magic
trick involving buttons jumpingfrom hand to hand.
(02:59):
Adam being Adam, he could notlet it go, leading to sleepless
nights spent studying theentirety of Mark Wilson's
Encyclopedia of Magic.
This obsession would ignite theflame that, although perhaps
dormant during college, came outin force when Adam quit his
agency job and found himselfwith time on his hands.
The fan of impossible objects,mechanical puzzles and optical
(03:20):
illusions joined the art of play, a company started by his two
friends that he helped expandinto a full fledged wonder
emporium that embraces power ofcuriosity and gives Adam the
opportunity to create objectsand puzzles that allow him to
share his favorite emotionastonishment with curious minds
the world over, and, in hiscapacity as a magician, adam has
(03:41):
worked with legends such asDavid Blaine, david Copperfield
and others.
As this is now approaching oneof the longest bios, I've read
on the show and I'm starting tofeel like that award winner
whose thank yous are gettingexcessive when the producers are
about to cut the mic.
Here are a few more randomfacts about Adam that you should
probably know.
I'm officially going to bulletpoints.
He released the salsa tocommemorate the 10 year
anniversary of Dragon's LoveTacos no, it was not spicy.
(04:03):
During the pandemic, heco-created Bizarre Brooklyn, an
immersive theater experience inthe history of the borough.
He currently has a Jack in theBox puzzle on Kickstarter, so
you should pre-order that now,as it will probably win an award
.
So Adam Rubin, doing his partto make sure that we are raising
a generation of untamedcreatives and ferociously
curious intellectuals.
Welcome to the show.
Adam Rubin (04:24):
Thank you.
Four minutes and 30 secondsFull life, probably more
detailed than I remember.
Well, I am glad that you timedit, because I do feel like it
was probably one of the longerbios I've done and completely
worth it.
Yeah, well, thank you forhaving me.
Max Chopovsky (04:39):
It's a pleasure to be here, of course, I do have
a very important questionbefore we get started, which is
should we actually be suspiciousof Whistlers and, if so, why?
Adam Rubin (04:50):
Well, I think the generation is following mine,
which is now 15 years orsomething like that.
Is it coming up on 20 years?
Might be, I don't know, thatyou'd like the name very much.
They find it to be a bit of atongue twister, suspicious of
Whistlers, and so there'sdefinitely been some controversy
(05:11):
over the name in the morerecent years and, from what I
know, younger people refer tothe group as Spish, which makes
me want to puke.
But hey, you've got to defer toyouth.
So there's now.
So the original idea, I guess,was just some little cartoon of
a guy whistling with an axbehind his back.
It's funny.
(05:31):
You bring up whistling, though,because it's something I wish I
was better at.
It's something I've alwayswanted to be great at, and I've
never been able to figure outhow to make that really loud
sound like Mom in the Park and aLot of Disneyland or that
sonorous melody like Andrew Birdcan do.
So I'm interested in whistlinglessons.
(05:51):
If anybody that listens to thishas an expertise there, please
contact me.
Max Chopovsky (05:56):
If any listener is a whistler.
That is a skill that I havetried multiple times to acquire
and failed miserably.
Each time there is thewhistling just with your mouth,
which I guess all whistling iswith your mouth.
But this one is without yourfingers and I can do like one
note if I'm lucky.
But I can kind of sometimeswhistle when I put my middle and
(06:18):
index fingers into my mouth,but then I don't usually do that
because then I feel like I haveto wash my hands before I do
that, which kind of defeats thepurpose of using it in the
moment when you immediately needto whistle very urgently.
So yeah, I'll definitely takewhoever offers up on the lessons
as well.
Adam Rubin (06:38):
Whistling lessons wanted Whistling lessons wanted?
Max Chopovsky (06:41):
Yes, consider the ad posted.
So you are here to tell us astory Before we begin.
Do you want to set the stage?
Is there anything we shouldknow?
Adam Rubin (06:51):
As you had mentioned , I was in Chicago for a solid
seven years, really enjoyed thatcity, love that place, but at
some point I moved back east,where I grew up and was living
in New York, so I had to stopwearing fleeces to bars and I
had to get on Instagram and allthis sort of stuff that you had
to do in New York in 2011, ifyou were of the dating age and a
(07:12):
single person out there.
Tinder was brand new, I think,so it was an exciting time in
New York.
I was probably around 33 yearsold when this story takes place.
I had recently quit my job as acreative drinker at Firstborn,
so I'm living it up at thispoint.
(07:32):
I had just become a full-timeauthor, I'm single in New York
and I don't know what the hellI'm going to do next.
That's the state I'm in at thebeginning of this story.
Max Chopovsky (07:43):
I love it.
Adam Rubin (07:44):
All right, let's get into it.
Tell me a story.
So my good friend, corey Mints,who you mentioned in your
introduction, the friend whointroduced me to Daniel Selmari,
a guy who changed the course ofmy life entirely and a great
friend, is the kind of New Yorkpersonality that just can't walk
into a room or get on a subwaycar without recognizing someone
that he knows.
He knows all the people in thecity, what's going on, where to
(08:07):
go, all the fun events, and thatevening he had invited me to go
to an exhibition of pizza boxartwork that was put on by a guy
named Scott who does Scott'sPizza Tours here in New York.
He's a pizza expert,world-class pizza aficionado.
He collects the pizza boxesthat pizzas come in, and he had
(08:31):
decorated a gallery with allthese pizzas.
It was great.
It was cool to see they're fromall over the world, different
languages, different art styles.
It was very quirky and fun and,needless to say, there was a
lot of free pizza at this event.
So we stuffed our faces,admired the pizza boxes and then
, when we left the gallery, itwas like 8 o'clock at night and
we didn't know what to do.
We're just full.
(08:52):
So the only thing we couldthink of.
At that time we were inWilliamsburg walking around.
Neither one of us lived aroundthere, but we thought what's
good to drink when you're fullof pizza?
Sake, it's the lightestcrispiest.
Let's go find some sake, drinksome sake to add it to the pizza
in our bellies.
(09:13):
Little Google search and wewind up at a place I've never
been before and have never beensince called Bozu Japanese place
in Williamsburg.
And when we get to the doorthey say sorry, we're fully
booked, it's totally crowded,there's no way we can get seats.
We say OK, that's all right,we'll hang out for five minutes
and see if something opens up.
(09:33):
Just at that moment, two guysget up from the bar and we get
our seats at the bar, order abottle of sake and we're sitting
there happily, feeling like,hey, the night couldn't get any
better.
Well, in walks this group of sixwomen tall, beautiful, loud,
laughing, and they get seated atthis table in the middle of the
(09:54):
restaurant and everybody'slooking at them because they're
making a lot of noise andthey're all dressed to the nines
and they're just.
They're attracting a lot ofattention.
But I notice that every time Iglance over there, there's one
woman in particular, thisdark-haired woman with these
piercing eyes, and every time Ilook over there she catches me
(10:16):
looking, and the first time I'ma little embarrassed, and the
second time I'm intrigued, andthe third time I figure.
Well, that means she's lookingat me too.
So we finish this bottle ofsake and I'm feeling brave and I
tell my friend hey, you leavefirst, ok, and I'm going to hang
back just for a minute so I cango talk to this woman.
(10:38):
And he says don't do that,don't interrupt these ladies.
They're right of their ownbusiness.
They're trying to have a nicemeal.
This is not the kind of thing Iwould normally do, but I just
felt like there was some sort ofconnection and I would have
kicked myself if I left withoutdoing something about it.
So he goes and I, as casuallyas possible, walk over to the
(11:03):
table and say excuse me, I hateto interrupt, but I couldn't
help but notice you from acrossthe restaurant and I wanted to
come over and introduce myself.
And the table just goes quiet.
You know her five friends justlike stop talking.
And I was just talking to her,I wasn't talking to anybody else
.
And she's like taken a back fora minute and she says oh well,
(11:26):
I'm Tamice.
And at that moment, like a lotof the listeners now, I had no
idea what she said.
I didn't catch that name at all, I wasn't.
I now know what it was, but atthat point I just was, I was
like keep moving forward, don'tlet it, don't let that trip you
up.
I said I don't usually doanything like this, but would
you, I'd love to take you outfor a cup of coffee sometime or
(11:46):
a drink if you're interested.
And she turns a little red andsays I'm flattered, but I live
in California.
I live in LA, so you know I can.
I said oh, all right, well, itwas so nice to meet you.
Sorry again for interruptingyour dinner.
I hope you, you all, have alovely time.
And I leave and I was feelingpretty good because she says she
(12:10):
was flattered.
So I go outside and Corey'swaiting there just dying to hear
what I have.
What happened, how'd it go?
I said it went pretty well.
She didn't throw a drink in myface and that's it.
That's it.
He says hey, it's like WayneGretzky says you miss 100% of
the shots you don't take.
And I agree.
(12:32):
So we kind of walk off into thenight, kind of a buzz with the
possibility of New York.
And all of a sudden I hear Adam, adam and I turn around and
there's this gorgeous womanstanding in the doorway waving
at me, and it's to me, and shesays hey, you know I might move
(12:53):
back.
Why don't you take my number?
And I do, and I took her number.
She goes back inside and I turnaround and Corey says what did
you say to that woman?
I was like I don't know, I justintroduced myself.
I just I asked her out forcoffee and all of a sudden we
hear Corey, corey.
I turn around and there's thisother beautiful woman standing
(13:16):
in the doorway beckoning toCorey and Corey looks at me and
I look at Corey and he walks up.
He's dumbfounded.
He says yes, she says youforgot your credit card and she
hands him his credit card back.
And the best part of this storyis that I'm now married to
Tamice and we've been marriedfor five years now.
Max Chopovsky (13:38):
Oh my God, is Corey married to the woman that
came out with the credit card?
Adam Rubin (13:42):
No, she was just a waitress at the restaurant.
He is married.
He's got two beautiful children.
He now lives in LA.
Max Chopovsky (13:50):
Oh, that's funny.
Yeah, okay, that's the storyfrom your perspective.
Now how would Tamice tell thestory from her perspective,
because I know you've talkedabout this?
Adam Rubin (14:00):
Yeah, yeah.
So she has a couple of detailsthat she likes to add, and I
didn't mention this because Ithink it's impossible for me to
have known this and I think itspoils the ending of the story
if you know that.
I know the whole, you know bothsides, but she says that she
got up at some point during thedinner because we were like, we
were making eye contact and atsome point during the dinner she
(14:21):
got up and walked by me becauseI had to.
She had to walk by us to get tothe bathroom and she walked by
me.
She says, to check the vibe andthe energy you know, to see if
they're like, do a chemistrytest somehow, just in walking by
me.
I guess you could.
I don't know if, I don't knowwhat it was about, but that was
an important, that was animportant test for her and I
(14:41):
passed.
I guess we were definitelychecking each other out, and so
I felt I wouldn't normallyapproach a strange woman in the
middle of dinner with herfriends, but it felt like there
was a little bit of aninvitation.
The part that I didn't hear iswhen I left the restaurant after
I had said her, her, the tablestayed silent for a while and
(15:02):
they're all looking at her andshe says, should I go after him?
And they all go yes, go afterhim.
So it was.
She got a little peer pressureto follow up, to make that bold
move of the beckoning to me onthe threshold of the restaurant.
And the other point that shelikes to make, which I don't
know is, I guess is relevant, iswhen she said take my number.
(15:24):
I took out a pen from my pocketand went to write it on my hand
and she said don't you have aniPhone?
And luckily I did.
I think if I had a Samsung shewouldn't have gone out with me.
This is definitely an Appleaficionado, I guess.
So I guess that's.
That's such a weird preferencepeople have.
But I have heard from othersingle people that if they get a
(15:46):
green bubble back on iMessage,that it's a no go, which is a
strange, very strange dealbreaker, which is a little sad,
because what if the other personjust didn't have reception and
it had to be sent as a textmessage?
Or if maybe they accidentallysent out of their iCloud?
Like, how many marriages neverhappened because somebody just
(16:06):
didn't have reception and gotback a green bubble?
This is just one more reason weshould all be using WhatsApp.
Yeah, I agree.
It just takes the guesswork outof it's technology agnostic.
Max Chopovsky (16:16):
Yeah, so when you were sitting at the bar, did
you have your backs to them, orwas it one of those bars where
you could just kind of look offto the sides.
Adam Rubin (16:24):
It was a corner bar.
I guess I didn't paint thepicture entirely, but it was a
corner bar so I could see theirtable without turning around.
I could look across therestaurant and see the
restaurant, whereas my friend,we were at the corner of the bar
, so we kind of had a goodvantage point for the whole
place.
Max Chopovsky (16:42):
Ah, isn't it so interesting how, if we are just
open to certain opportunitiesthat present themselves in life,
our lives can take entirelydifferent directions.
Adam Rubin (17:00):
Yeah, well, so that's the evil perspective on
the story in my own head is likewell, what if I had gone up to
more women in bars and just, orat restaurants and just
introduced myself?
What would my life might havebeen like, but I think I got the
right one.
When we first got together, itwas a long distance thing at
first.
It was very romantic and therewas a lot of pining and letters
(17:21):
and all these things and Icouldn't help but thinking about
it like a meteor hitting theearth, these two things
colliding out of the galaxy ofpossibility, of these just the
infinitesimally small chances ofthis happening.
If I hadn't gone to the bar, ifwe hadn't gotten sake, if all
these things that there wasreally no way we would have met.
(17:43):
Otherwise and she was in NewYork but she was in Williamsburg
in the fashion scene and goingto warehouse raves we never
would have met.
That was not the world that Iwas inhabiting.
Or if those two guys didn'thappen to get up from their
chairs Right, if we hadn'tgotten that particular seat at
the bar yeah, I mean where?
Max Chopovsky (18:02):
I was going with.
The comment was what if you hadnot walked up to her?
Not, what if you walked up toall the other women?
Adam Rubin (18:10):
Yeah, it was as cliche as it sounded, it was
absolutely love at first sight.
I wasn't being that vulnerable,even with myself, to admit it,
but at that moment I was likeI'm going to marry that woman.
Wow, you were that sure.
It was like lightning strikes.
You can't help but use thesecliches when you talk about this
sort of stuff, because so manypeople are so.
(18:32):
It's such a passionate subjectthat people have talked about so
many times.
But the only semi-originalthing I can even think of is
that when we met each other,when we started spending time
together, it felt like cominghome and it felt like this was
the place I was supposed to beand it still does, which is nice
.
Max Chopovsky (18:49):
That's a great analogy, and so did you actually
go to California and take herout to coffee, or was it more of
a phone call thing at first?
Adam Rubin (18:59):
She was coming back and forth.
She was working in the fashionindustry as a menswear designer
at the time and she was goingback and forth to China from LA.
So she would often have littlestopovers in New York and she
would make it so that she couldspend a day or two to see her
friends.
And this one particular timeshe was going to spend time with
me, our first date, the firsttime we had seen each other
(19:21):
after that first encounter and Igot crazy trying to find the
right restaurant, where to bookand what to do and just driving
myself insane and trying to getthese tables and calling in
favors and this whole plan ofwhat was going to happen after
it.
She came to my apartment and wenever left, we never went to
dinner, we just hung out andwalked around the neighborhood
(19:42):
and just I don't even know if weate anything.
It was intense.
Max Chopovsky (19:48):
You know what that makes me think of is.
The first experience wasunplanned, sort of sudden, and
very, very organic, and itturned out wonderfully.
It was super unexpected and hadthe best possible ending the
second experience, the date, youtried to recreate the
(20:12):
spontaneity of the firstexperience by controlling
everything, finding the bestrestaurant, the best table,
calling in all your favors,because now there were things at
stake.
Adam Rubin (20:24):
There was an expectation, or I don't know
what.
There was at least time tothink.
Max Chopovsky (20:28):
Well, you also were probably a little bit
anxious about can I live up tothese expectations that maybe
she has of me now that I'm thissort of spontaneous, mysterious
guy that gets up from the barand says I never do this, but
can I take you out to coffee?
She was smitten after youpassed her chemistry test right,
(20:50):
the walking chemistry test,which the walk by is probably a
thing and life again dictatedthat no, you can't control these
things, and so you ended up notdoing any of that stuff and
again had a super spontaneous,organic evening where you just
walked around and enjoyed eachother's company.
Adam Rubin (21:10):
Yeah, it's rare to make a romantic connection that
deep with someone, obviously,but it's also rare to make just
any sort of connection where butit happens, it's less rare
where you meet a new person andyou just fall into a
conversation where you're likethis person's going to be my
friend forever.
I love that feeling and I havefriends like that, where we
(21:31):
could sit and do anything, roadtrips, it doesn't matter.
It's the kind of person whereyou're like you don't have to
make a plan because you justknow whatever you do, you're
going to be bullshitting andenjoying each other's company.
It's so immensely no matterwhat that it doesn't really
matter the venue.
Max Chopovsky (21:48):
Totally.
I used to think when I was inhigh school I was not popular at
all.
I mean, I was crazy and alwaysvery loud, but I was kind of
this outcast that was and I'm animmigrant, so English by that
point I had learned it, but Idefinitely didn't understand the
cultural norms or I didn't playsports.
I wasn't in with the cool kids.
(22:09):
I really desperately wanted tobe in with the cool kids Because
I thought that every time theyget together, something profound
happens, some profoundadventure or some incident that
turns into this crazy story thatthen they have these inside
jokes about when they're inschool, like the movies, like
(22:31):
the movies.
What I came to learn later inlife is that actually the
majority of those hangouts arecompletely uneventful and very
unplanned.
You just go over to somebody'shouse and you hang out with them
.
Only after you can accept thefact that the majority of times
(22:55):
you hang out with somebody willbe completely just uneventful
scenarios, only then can youbecome open to some of those
things actually turning intothose crazy stories.
Like when you were in Japan,for example, and you guys were
walking around and all of asudden you learned about this
laughing competition.
You're like, let's go checkthat out and you're like, let's
(23:19):
actually participate in it, andthen you ended up winning it.
That would have never happenedif you were like no, we have to
plan this whole thing out.
We have to do A, b and C beforelunch, then we have lunch at
this place, then we do D, e andF Like that should never happen.
Adam Rubin (23:34):
I think that's the most fun part of traveling.
That's why it's always a goodidea to leave a little bit of
uncertainty in your plan whenyou travel.
I don't like to make too manyplans.
I'll plan a few things.
You need to buy tickets forcertain places or museums, or
take a reservation at arestaurant at some point, but I
won't plan out the whole day,because then you rob yourself of
(23:55):
all those possibilities.
That's the best part aboutexploring the world is not
knowing what you're going tofind.
Max Chopovsky (24:04):
That's exactly right.
I think that's where I got someof my travels wrong.
When I was backpacking throughEurope by myself, I felt like I
needed to plan everything out.
And there's so many things tosee Like if you go to any of the
European capitals, you couldspend a full week on attractions
that all need tickets and youcould plan your entire day out
(24:25):
and leave nothing to chance.
And I think I was souncomfortable with the
uncertainty that if I don't planeverything out, then there's a
chance that I'm not gonna haveany fun.
There's a chance that I'm gonnahave an incredible experience
that can only happenunexpectedly that I planned
everything and it wasn't until Iwas older, when I was like, oh
(24:49):
no, actually you can't planeverything because you can only
walk into a random restaurantand either meet the love of your
life or have an incredibleconversation with the chef, or
learn something new, or run intosomebody that tells you about
some underground thing that'shappening that night and they're
not telling anybody.
That's the only way to do that.
But for a lot of people thathave to have control and they're
(25:11):
worried that if you don't planan amazing evening it will be a
waste of time, they just missout on that.
Adam Rubin (25:20):
Yeah, I think that's sad, but true is, if you
require control, then yourelinquish some of that magic of
the unplanned surprise.
Max Chopovsky (25:34):
Has that changed in you at all?
Adam Rubin (25:37):
No, no, if anything, I'm encouraged to indulge that
attitude even more.
That was part of the thingabout Bazaar Brooklyn was that
it happened during the pandemic.
The Bazaar Brooklyn was aninteractive walking tour, sort
of part historical, part magical.
We used to say that everythingyou hear is true, but not
everything you see is.
And the real reaction we had tositting inside and being stuck
(26:04):
and everything feeling digitaland cold and planned, like you
said, like everything had astarting point in it.
There was almost no spontaneityat that point because of the
situation of the world, and sowe wanted to do this thing.
That felt like there was asurprise around every corner,
that there were infinitepossibilities within walking
(26:26):
distance, and the thesis for theshow was basically certainty is
the enemy of discovery.
So we tried to bring that tolife for people and it was
really nice, I'm sure yeah, Imean, people had to love that
being able to get out and havethis sort of Well, that was the
hardest part, as we wereworkshopping the show with
(26:48):
friends and family.
The first couple of times we hadthis feedback, we would ask for
feedback, and everybody's notewas the same, which was oh, it's
just so great to get out of thehouse.
We're like, okay, yeah, weunderstand the bar is low, but
help us improve.
Max Chopovsky (27:04):
I don't actually care what we do, I just want to
like step outside my front door.
Adam Rubin (27:08):
Yeah, they were just like I got to put on a coat and
like go outside.
I saw other people.
I saw them in real life.
Yeah, irl.
Max Chopovsky (27:17):
I think as a creative you have developed that
muscle really well.
Adam Rubin (27:24):
I mean, you can't really come up with something
you could take a statue orwhatever it was and turn it into
the story that then becomesDragon Love Tacos.
I've got the statue right here.
This thing was sitting on mydad's desk for years throughout
my childhood, and I just alwaysremembered it.
It always struck me and wheredid the taco thing come from?
(27:44):
Well, I thought it kind oflooks like a taco, I think
that's a taco, and it just kindof made sense to me that all
dragons would love tacos and, byextension, there would be this
beautiful tension that theycouldn't eat anything spicy
because of the whole firebreathing dilemma that they have
.
Max Chopovsky (28:05):
Yeah, I mean, if he's representative of dragon
kind, you can extrapolate thatall dragons must love tacos.
You could take an idea likethat.
You could take a little statuelike that.
Or you can take a small ideawith the squirrels and turn it
into a book.
Or you can take an idea andturn it into a magic trick.
So you've worked that muscleextensively, and so it's, I
(28:28):
think, hard for all creatives tolook at a blank slate or a
timeline for a video editor andjust be like.
This can become anything.
This can also become nothing,right?
Adam Rubin (28:40):
Well, there's a big difference between work for hire
and work for pleasure, for sure.
So I was a mercenary for manyyears and I used my skills to
the highest bidder.
I rented my skills to thehighest bidder.
But I was doing a lot of comedyback then and my friends who
were like working at adult videostores and stuff would say, oh
(29:02):
man, I wish I could work inadvertising.
It's so great they werewatching Mad Men or something.
And I would say it's not likeit seems on TV.
Basically, you walk into a room,give somebody your best idea
and then they pay you to watchthem fuck it up.
So it can be heartbreaking ifyou put too much of yourself in
it, and the people I've seen gocrazy in the ad world are the
(29:24):
ones who convince themselvesthat their personal vision is
what the client is paying for,or who convince themselves that
their talent is worthy of thismillion dollar budget that is in
place in order to sell softdrinks.
So you kind of got to keep anemotional distance to it.
(29:45):
Like any work for hire, thereare sometimes our moments when
you make something you're reallyproud of or where it is
important to exercise artisticintegrity for the benefit of all
parties involved.
But you can only fight withpeople so much.
They're the ones trying to sellchicken nuggets or life
(30:06):
insurance or whatever it is, andyou can only give them your
best within that context, likethey want a specific thing and
they will dictate the parameters.
Max Chopovsky (30:19):
I mean, that's exactly how I felt when I had my
video production company.
I started it with thesegrandiose ideas of being this
sought after creative house thatwould get to dictate the
creative vision, and once westarted signing clients like
Google and Capital One, I waslike, wow, look at this.
And then over time I realizedthat a corporate video is a
(30:43):
corporate video is a corporatevideo even if you're doing it
for Capital One.
And after a while it sort ofdawned on me that I was
beginning to lose my passion forthe thing that I loved so much,
which was video, because Ibasically was forced to count
(31:04):
out to the lowest commondenominator and the word that I
used to describe that is tragic,because if you are forced to do
work for hire in the field thatyou're passionate about and you
end up becoming just anothersort of drone in that field, for
me, for a long time, videobecame filmmaking, became a
(31:28):
casualty of that, which reallyis tragic.
It's wonderful that you did notlose your creative spark, that
it wasn't beat out of you by allthe ad agencies where,
ironically, you were supposed toleverage it.
Adam Rubin (31:41):
Well, it's dangerous to do what you love for a
living.
It's when it works out, it'sthe best possible scenario, and
I have friends like that, lotsof friends that do what they
love, and people pay them to doit and they just they're living
the dream.
But I know many other peoplewho, just like you, started with
(32:03):
a great passion for somethingand then it, the light went out
in their eyes.
Now they just their industryhacks in whatever field,
whatever their chosen field, andthey found a new hobby and I
think the lesson in there isthat you have to make weird shit
on the side, whatever it is youdo.
If you do video editing or youdo Copywriting, you have to keep
(32:23):
one foot outside of the officeto Make things that make you
happy, because that's the onlyway to really keep that Spark
alive.
You can do something else youcould do.
You could paint or sing, or, ifyou consider your Profession
creative, I do think it isimportant to have creative
pursuits outside of the office.
(32:45):
Was that the role that comedyplayed for you when you were
working it, you know the yeah,comedy and puzzles and magic and
and Making video sketches anddoing like freelance journalism,
like I just I think it probablywas evident to all my employers
throughout my entire career butlike it was never the most
important thing in my life.
I was there to do a job, theywere paying me to be there and I
was gonna do as as good of ajob as I possibly could do, but
(33:09):
I was not taking that work Homewith me.
I was not staying up late atnight worrying about the pitch
and in some ways I think thatmade me better at the job,
because there was a very I would.
I think clients could feel itand they like to work with me
because they knew that I wasthere to help them and but it
was, there was a greater entity.
(33:29):
It was not like I was some cogin the wheel.
Max Chopovsky (33:31):
It was like I'm here to provide what I can for
you in this context and, if youlet me, we'll make something
great you know that was kind ofthe attitude I had, which is
Potentially off-putting, butmost clients seem to to
appreciate it and I thinkcrucially, your identity was not
tied up in the thing you werecreating at work, which allowed
(33:52):
you to, you know, kind of not becrushed if a client said well,
we don't like that.
Adam Rubin (33:58):
Yeah, and it that's a tricky thing, becoming wrapped
up in the your job description.
It's such a common Question tobe asked the very first time you
meet somebody what do you do?
And to give them that one wordanswer that puts you in a little
box so they can betterunderstand who you are as a
person from then on.
And I don't like that, that somuch, especially because I'm not
(34:22):
sure how to answer the question.
Am I a writer?
Am I a performer?
Am I an inventor?
I don't really know.
Maybe I don't want to answerthem because I don't want to
have to answer it for myself,but just in general, wouldn't it
be nicer to ask somebody whatdo you like to do for fun, the
very first time you meet them,when you know nothing about them
, and say what do you like to dofor fun?
Because if they say I like towatch TV and go to the Gym,
(34:44):
they're probably not that fun.
No offense to anybody who wouldgive those two answers, but
Maybe just for me personally,when somebody says what do you,
I say what do you do for fun?
This?
I go to the gym.
I'm like man, I must be doingit wrong because I am not having
fun if I'm at the gym.
So what's your answer to thatwhen they say, well, what do you
like to do for fun?
There's a million answers forme.
The thing I I'm thinking aboutmost right now, because I'm
(35:07):
sitting by the window and it'sautumn in New York is I love to
walk around and look at thetrees.
I Love to walk around and lookat the trees, especially in
Brooklyn in New York.
There's so many beautiful trees.
There's a lot of London Plaintrees and ginkos and and
Thornless honey locusts andstuff, but there's also, like
Eastern red buds and and Quanzancherry trees and plum trees and
you can find these justbeautiful trees that Explode
(35:29):
with color around these timethis time of year and see there
the way they they drop theleaves on the ground and the way
that they'll just create thesebeautiful colorful canopies over
the streets.
So that's Currently, at thistime of year, one of the things
I like to do for fun, which,again, if you know that about me
, it tells you a little morethan what the IRS you know.
(35:51):
When I'm reporting to the IRS,I think totally and Not to hate
on people that maybe they arereally into some you know shows
on TV and maybe they just liketo live at the gym.
So no hating on those people.
No, hey, no hating.
I have good friends who wouldsay, give one of those answers
probably.
But I think you can tell whenit's when somebody really has to
(36:13):
think about it, like when wasthe last time they had fun?
You know that's good for themto think about too.
It's good to it's good to havefun.
I think even as an adult, Ithink it's important to have fun
.
Max Chopovsky (36:26):
Well, I think that's one of the premises to
everything you've done, which isDon't lose the sense of wonder
that you naturally have as a kid, and don't forget to have a
little fun as an adult, it ishilarious.
Adam Rubin (36:39):
Look, it's.
It's schools fault.
I Don't get to say this whenI'm at at the school which I,
when I visit schools, I Bite mytongue a little bit.
But it's the school's fault.
The kids don't have fun anymore.
I see this illustrated reallyvividly when I give a
presentation at any any schoolpublic school, private school,
(37:00):
montessori school, like Kips orwhatever they.
I mean, like any school.
I say who here likes to draw?
And for whatever reason, everyschool in the world.
When they have an assembly,they put all the kids in the gym
, they put the youngest kids inthe front, then the second grade
, third grade, fourth grade andthen all the way to the back.
I say who likes to draw?
And every kid in the front rowraises their hand and, like most
(37:23):
of the kids in the second rowand then third row, a few hands
there and by the by the time hegets to the back, there's like
one kid with their hand raised.
So that means that love andthat Fearlessness is present in
all kids and we've seen it.
If you have kids, or even ifyou've been around kids like Six
, seven, five, six, seven years,these kids are fearless.
Eight years old they.
They're like I can do that.
(37:44):
I can be a basketball, I can do, they can do anything.
And so that means it's us, thegrown-ups, the school system,
the parents, tv.
You know it's death bycomparison.
It's even when we don't mean todo it.
You say to somebody oh, you'reso good at drawing, and the kid
that's next to them goes Well,shit, I guess I'm not good at
drawing.
And I'm not saying thereshouldn't be gifted in talent
(38:06):
programs, like I'm not sayinglike what was the Ray Bradbury
story?
Like Harrison Bergeron, whatwas that story?
You know what I was?
Like they put the shackles onthat gleaming you know Superman
to make him equal to everybodyelse.
But I just think it is.
There have to be ways where youcan encourage people to do stuff
that makes them happy, even ifthey're not good at it, even if
(38:27):
they're not great at singing.
If they love to sing like, yeah, go for it.
You know, go to karaoke nightand rip it up.
Like enthusiasm is half thebattle.
And I'm not a teacher, I don'thave to be there every single
day.
I'm there for a couple hours ata time.
I get to rile them up and thenleave and not really face any of
the consequences, but anythingI can do to encourage them to
(38:50):
express themselves and do thethings that make them happy, to
do the things that they like,without worrying about getting a
million views or getting a goodgrade or getting praise from
someone else all things that Iam guilty of seeking myself.
But if I can try to encouragethem to just make stuff For no
(39:10):
other reason than for their ownsatisfaction, then I will
consider it a victory For sureit is.
Max Chopovsky (39:17):
For sure.
Yeah, I mean, what happens whenkids get older is there's a
need for conformity andconformity and creativity are
sort of at odds with each other.
Adam Rubin (39:26):
Yeah, you think it's conformity.
You think they just want to belike everybody else.
Max Chopovsky (39:30):
I think that's a part of it.
I mean, if everybody else ispaying attention to the teacher
and one kid is doodling, the kidwho's doodling is the one who
is not, who's out of place,right?
I mean, that's one specificexample, but I do feel like the
arts are underrepresentedbecause, at least historically,
(39:51):
schools have not seen as obviousof a benefit to including, like
an art rich curriculum, andthat's a massive loss.
Adam Rubin (40:01):
I've been to like small schools, classrooms, 10
kids.
They have the same teacher fromkindergarten to sixth grade,
which would be a nightmare forme.
I don't think I could deal withthat.
But and you know, they sing.
Everybody sings at thebeginning of every class.
I went to one place and theywere like we will sing for you
now, and it's a small group,it's like 12 people and me and
(40:22):
they're just singing at me withharmonies and I don't know what
I'm like.
What do I do with my hands?
What am I supposed to do inthis situation?
And there's some kid in theback of that class is like can't
we just do a multiple choicetest?
Like I just want to do somemath, so you can swing in the
other direction too.
It's an impossible task toeducate the masses.
I know that's too pessimistic,it's just we got to go back to
(40:44):
the apprentice, master or mentorprogram.
You know Khan Academy recentlyhas been doing some interesting
things with with AI and in a waythat's using like the Socratic
method.
And there's this God, if Icould remember it, it would.
I would sound so smart rightnow.
But there's this paradoxessentially in education that
says if you have one to oneinstruction, everybody does
(41:06):
better.
Obviously right, not a verysurprising finding.
But the thought between this Ithink they call it con me goes
they can close that gap byproviding both the teachers and
the students with kind of one onone resources that help them to
have that experience of havinga tutor, but without just giving
them the answer.
Max Chopovsky (41:27):
That is a big part of it is kids expect to
have the answers handed to themand they don't like ambiguity,
and so I think that actually ispart of the reason that this is
my theory that more kids don'tgo into the creative arts,
because the creative artsrequires sitting with the
ambiguity and understanding thatambiguity is actually
(41:48):
opportunity, not just a completeand terrifying lack of answers.
Adam Rubin (41:52):
Well, it's also just capitalism is our religion and
we can't.
If somebody says they want tobe a painter, you're like no, no
, no, no, you got to how you'regoing to pay for the things
you're going to want to buy.
There's an enormous amount ofpressure in that regard,
especially as you get towardsthe end of high school.
You're 100% right.
Max Chopovsky (42:11):
I wrote a screenplay for a short film that
I'm actually casting for rightnow, and it has to do with
exactly that, and it's thestruggle between parents and
children around what thechildren want to pursue if it's
at odds with what the parentsbelieve the kids should be
pursuing.
Adam Rubin (42:26):
Oh man, and that's such a.
I'm not a parent, but I canimagine that struggle is never
ending.
Max Chopovsky (42:33):
Never ending.
It's not, because where do youmean?
You, as the guy that comes intothe class and reads to them and
gets them riled up, can youknow?
Even at the pep rally can sortof leave when everybody's
clapping and they're all excitedhey, we can do anything.
This is amazing.
Let's get more hands up, evenin the back row, and then you
leave and they get back to classand they're like okay, hope you
(42:53):
guys had fun.
Now let's talk about mathhomework.
Adam Rubin (42:56):
Yeah, because state testing is coming up and we need
funding for this district,correct?
Yeah, it's no joke.
I don't realize what aprivileged position I have to
come in and be uncle fun andthen leave.
I don't have to get them totake their medicine, but I think
that's important too, for sureit's God's work.
Max Chopovsky (43:18):
Man, you got to keep doing it.
Adam Rubin (43:20):
I see it now because I've been doing these books the
last few years where I askedkids to write me stories, to
write stories and send them tome.
And I've gotten to meet a coupleof those authors around the
country and I can see, and theparents have told me and the
teachers have told me, that itdoes make a big difference when
(43:42):
they feel like there is anopportunity or an invitation to
create something or makesomething, because and it's an
open-ended opportunity, which isalways a challenge and one of
the big challenges for adultstoo when you say, all right, I
want to have a hobby outside, Iwant to have a creative project
outside of work, and then youstare at this blank page, like
(44:03):
well, what the hell am I goingto do?
Like well, but what you know?
What should I do?
That can be equally paralyzingas the client's demands or the
constructs of your job, but it'sworth figuring out, it's worth
putting something down and justgoing with that for a while
until something else comes along, because the happiest people I
know are the ones that makestuff they love, even if they're
(44:26):
not good at it, even if nobodyelse likes it.
They got a closet full ofpaintings They'll never show
anybody and they're thrilledabout it.
Max Chopovsky (44:34):
Yeah, well as the Rick Rubin would tell you you
got to put out a show, you gotto show those paintings to the
world.
Adam Rubin (44:41):
Yeah, I'm of two minds about that.
Whether you got a show evermade, I mean yeah, I don't know.
That is the necessity.
I think if you want to be great, you have to show, you have to
show people and you have to getfeedback and you have to grow
that way.
But look at Emily Dickinson shenever showed anybody and she
was great.
So I don't know if she'd bemortified, maybe that we know
(45:01):
about her or read any of thethings that she wrote.
But there's probably somemental health issues going on in
there too.
Max Chopovsky (45:07):
Yeah, so let's go back to the story with Tamice
for a few minutes.
Adam Rubin (45:13):
Yeah, so I think we're going to go back to the
way, a Puerto Rican sort oftruncation of Artemis the God of
War, the goddess of hunt Sorry,not the God of War.
Athena, I think, was the guy,but Artemis the goddess of the
hunt and wilderness.
Her father took Artemis andchanged it to Tamice.
Well, she certainly lived up tothat name when she stood in the
(45:35):
door.
I don't think so.
She's loosing some arrowsstraight into my heart.
Max Chopovsky (45:40):
That's exactly right, didn't even take some,
which is one.
So if you think back to thatstory, what would you say is the
moral of that story?
Adam Rubin (45:48):
I think the moral of the story is it never hurts to
ask.
It never hurts to ask and I'vegiven this advice to people
professionally, personally Ifyou ask nicely, with humility,
very rarely does anybody get mad.
If you need help with something, if you want to go to something
(46:10):
, you're trying to get access tosomething or even just to
connect with someone, it neverhurts to ask, as long as you ask
with kindness and humility.
Yeah, worst they can say is now, that's it.
Max Chopovsky (46:24):
Now you write stories for a living.
You also tell stories for aliving through physical objects.
What do great stories have incommon?
Adam Rubin (46:36):
I think that all great stories have some element
of surprise From the verybeginning.
I guess you could tell a greatstory and it's a cliche story
like boy meets girl, which iswhat my story is right Boy meets
girl, girl meets boy.
They both live happily everafter.
(46:56):
Maybe there's no surprise there, but it's in the details.
Then the surprise is in details, even like every great rom-com
you got to have, even though youknow exactly where it's going.
Maybe there has to be somesurprise, but perhaps those
aren't great stories.
So I think I'm going to stickwith my every great story.
It has some element of surprise.
Max Chopovsky (47:12):
Do you feel like every story has to have a moral
and if it, doesn't have a moral,is it still a good story?
Adam Rubin (47:19):
I think a moral is very subjective.
I think, if most stories thatare written with a specific
moral in mind are didactic andhollow, that you could tell the
same story to 100 people andevery one of them will tell you
it means something else.
Look at Lolita, right, I meanyou can look at the Bible.
Hell, you can make a millioninterpretations from a single
(47:42):
chunk of text.
So my experience personally asa reader and a writer is that
when you start trying to, whenyou want your audience to,
you're trying to impart somesort of specific message or
moral, or it's a fable, it's awindow dressing for a sermon,
yep yep, that's a good point.
Max Chopovsky (48:06):
So I know that you were influenced and inspired
by books like Stray Gagnoniaand the Giving Tree and I am
wondering if you think of acouple of books that get
storytelling really right, thatjust nail the art of
storytelling.
Adam Rubin (48:23):
What would those books be?
I would say one of my favoritebooks is the Amazing Adventures
of Cavalier and Clay.
I love that book.
It is a Venn diagram of all thethings that I really like too.
So comic books and New YorkCity and Magic Tricks, and it's
just.
I'm not going to throwhomosexuality and the Holocaust
in there just because I don'twant to.
(48:43):
I mean that is in the book butthat's not necessarily.
Those aren't necessarily mycore areas of interest, but I do
love that book.
The characters are just sovivid and this tragic historical
situation is so.
It's told with such compassionbut also with real consequence.
So, and then the struggle ofbeing gay at this time, and I
(49:08):
mean the whole thing is justreally beautiful and wonderful,
great.
I mean I don't have to tell youone of the Pulitzer Prize, so
don't take my word for it Allright, well, so last question,
adam, if you could say one thingto your 20 year old self what
would it be?
I tend not to focus on myregrets, but I know there's like
(49:29):
at least three moments in mylife where I shouldn't have said
or done something that Ispecifically did or said not
with any sort of graveconsequence, but just would have
avoided a lot of awkwardness ordisappointment for me or
someone else, and none of themare springing to mind at this
moment.
That's good to hear.
I saw this thread on Redditrecently and it's a sort of
(49:54):
flippant answer, but I guess Iwould have said like by Apple
stock.
Max Chopovsky (50:01):
I was waiting for something a little deeper than
that, considering how thoughtfulyou are.
Adam Rubin (50:05):
To be honest, I don't have any great regrets.
You know, I don't know what Iwould have told myself at 20
that would have changed my path.
I think you'd run into thattime travel conundrum and maybe
I'm overthinking this where nowall of a sudden you become
obsessed with this thing.
You know, I would probably justbe like don't worry about it,
(50:26):
dude, just keep.
You know, have fun.
That would be.
You know, keep at it.
But I wouldn't have needed totell myself that at 20 because I
was firmly believing in thatidea at that time.
So yeah, I don't know.
I feel like the people thathave a really quick answer to
(50:46):
that probably have some real,specific moment of regret they
would like to avoid.
Max Chopovsky (50:53):
That's really interesting.
Yeah, I mean, you'd besurprised how many people's
quick answer is just keep going.
Adam Rubin (51:01):
Just keep going, like you need encouragement,
like they were.
They were struggling at 20.
Max Chopovsky (51:05):
There's so much uncertainty when you're younger
and there's so many things youdon't have the answers for.
And a lot of people are notokay with uncertainty because
they don't know.
They're not sure how it's allgoing to turn out.
And that's why I think a lot ofpeople say, yes, we have to set
aside the grandfather paradox,but they say to themselves their
past selves are.
What they would say is hey,it's going to turn out okay.
Adam Rubin (51:28):
You know what I would tell myself now?
I just thought of it.
There was a recreation of DrHooker's impossibilities.
That happened at the LA MagicHistory Conference and I didn't
go and I really I wish I hadgone to that.
That was the inspiration forBizarre Brooklyn.
Actually, that trick, thatperformance that happened just
around the corner here inBrooklyn, in Brooklyn Heights,
(51:49):
by Dr Samuel Hooker and theapparatus and the whole thing
was recreated.
It's one of the best, mostimpenetrable secrets in magic
and two guys figured out, gotall the stuff and made it happen
again and it lived up to all ofthe historical documentation
and fool teller and David Blaineand David Copperfield all
(52:10):
walked out of the room justflabbergasted.
I didn't go for some stupid assreason, who knows.
Max Chopovsky (52:17):
But you did ask to me to have coffee with you.
Adam Rubin (52:20):
I did ask to me to have coffee with me.
Max Chopovsky (52:23):
So I think, all in all, you won.
Well, adam Rubin, that does it.
My friend, bestselling author,magician, comedian and overall
highly curious and playfulindividual.
Adam Rubin (52:35):
Thank you for being on the show man, Thanks for
having me.
Max, Thanks for the greatquestions.
I hope all your listeners founda clear and resonant moral to
this story Absolutely.
Max Chopovsky (52:46):
I'm sure they did .
I think, by the time this airs,the Jack in the Box puzzle now
a Kickstarter campaign that, bythe way, has blown past the
scope of $10,000 by somethinglike 2400% will be live.
So definitely check out the artplay for that, and that will be
(53:10):
it for this episode.
For Showmelton More, head overto maspodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was Moral of the Story.
I'm Max Drupowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
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