December 28, 2023 • 31 mins
Samir Wagle had just filed for divorce, resigned from his job as CEO of Protein Bar, and quit drinking. It was long overdue but that didn't make it any easier.
On a particularly dark day, Samir got home and decided to take his five year old son on a walk. He was lost, disoriented, and hopeless.
And then his son picked up a stick. What followed was a series of revelations that would begin Samir's journey out of the darkness.
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Episode Transcript
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Max Chopovsky (00:02):
This is Moral of the Story Interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, max Chepofsky.
Today's guest is Samir Wagle,the founder of 1111 Partners and
the kind of guy who's beenwilling to make the hard choices
necessary to craft the life hewants.
After getting his MBA from theUniversity of Chicago Booth
(00:25):
School of Business, samir doveheadfirst into hamburgers.
The glorious Golden Archeswelcomed the freshly educated
Boothie as the director ofoperations, and, although he
wouldn't stay long at McDonald's, samir's path would eventually
culminate in the role ofpresident and CEO of Protein Bar
, where he oversaw strategicimprovements that drove a 40%
increase in sales and areduction in employee turnover.
(00:48):
Very nice, but not really.
You see, samir realized that hewas no longer happy in his
marriage and also hated his job.
A realignment was in order, soover the course of four months,
he got divorced and quit.
With nothing lined up, hisimmigrant parents, who figured
by this point that they hadnothing to worry about, started
(01:08):
to get worried again.
Meanwhile, samir asked himselfthis crazy question who do I
want to be?
And then he asked the criticalfollow-up question that made the
difference between wishing andaction.
What am I willing to give up toget there?
As usually happens in times ofintrospection, it got a little
dark.
He pictured himself in a smallgarden apartment with a bottle
(01:29):
of vodka as his only companion.
Fortunately, samir arrived at aconclusion that would drive the
next chapter of his career.
External success doesn'tautomatically deliver internal
happiness.
After realizing that he lovedbuilding high performance teams,
samir founded 1111 Partners, anexecutive search firm focused
on finding and developingleaders for high-growth,
(01:50):
purpose-driven organizations.
The focus at 1111 has its rootsin the Japanese philosophy of
ikigai, which, roughlytranslated, means your reason
for being.
Samir and his team want to finddeveloping leaders at the
intersection of their passionand skill set, which,
incidentally, not only makes forengaged people but, I would
wager, probably reduces turnoveras well.
(02:11):
And as for Samir's own ikigai,well, in addition to his firm,
it involves twice-dailymeditation, lots of home cooking
and, in his own words, stirringup trouble with his wife and
son.
He had to learn some lessonsthe hard way, but he's emerged
from the crucible all the betterfor it.
As Samir likes to say, now hisinsides and outsides are very
(02:33):
much in alignment.
Samir, welcome to the show.
It's great to be here.
Thanks, max, so you are here totell us a story.
So set the stage.
Is there anything we need toknow before we get started?
Samir Wagle (02:45):
Yeah, well, I was going to talk a little bit more
about my left-turned albuquerque, which is what you referred to
in your opening remarks, andthere was a part that was really
really dark, like when we werethinking about that very bottom
of that time, and so I thoughtI'd go a little deeper in that.
If that's of interest to you,let's go Tell me a story, all
right?
So, as you kind of talked about, there was this point where I
(03:07):
also took a look at my life andI was technically doing really
well.
I had all the external stuffthat felt really great to me,
and inside it was not fun at all.
I was not happy and, as youmentioned, over the next 18
months I went to my then wife,now co-parent, and said I think
(03:27):
we need to get a divorce, wentto the board six months later
and said this is wonderful, butI don't want to do this anymore.
And then about 10 minutes laterI decided to stop drinking, and
that's a lot of change at onetime.
And so there was a point whereall of these are going
simultaneously on and it wasfeeling very messy.
It was a time where the divorcehad hit its lowest point, when
(03:51):
you have a company in transitionand you're trying to find the
new CEO, you're not making anydramatic changes, even though
changes needed to be made, andyou're also not talking to the
team about what change is coming, and so there's tension that is
created there, and then there'sjust adjusting your lifestyle
and the changes that come withthat, and so there was just a
day that I felt incredibly dark.
(04:11):
It was just a very hard day.
The divorce got very messy,there was a lot of tension with
the private equity firm and atwork, and I got home and I
grabbed my son, who was five Ithink he was five at the time.
I was like, hey, let's just gofor a walk.
And we're walking.
And I remember at the time justthinking I don't know what I'm
(04:34):
going to do, like I literallydon't know what I'm going to do.
And the stories I was tellingwere things like all of my
friends were built up during our13 years of marriage.
I will have no friends.
I don't have a job because Iwas the kind of person that I
resigned and I didn't haveanother job lined up because
this is part of what caused myimmigrant Indian parents some
(04:57):
hard-topped tations you canimagine.
And on and on and on, and so itfelt like all doors were closed
and I'm walking my son, whohonestly is the most important
thing in my life and he pickedup a stick and he goes hey,
daddy, I've got a stick.
And I'm like great.
And he proceeded to play withthis stick and he's like I'm a
(05:18):
knight, stick is a sword.
And then after that he became ahigh wire tightrope walker with
a sword or with his stick, andthen he was a ninja and I looked
at my child and I realized atthat moment that we would all be
okay, because, no matter whatwas going on my life, I was
(05:39):
pretty sure that in the suburbsof Chicago I could find a stick.
And that's that moment that Ihonestly think.
That was a moment that theclouds got a little lighter for
me and momentum shifted theother way.
Wow.
Max Chopovsky (05:52):
What was it you think about him picking up the
stick?
What was it about that momentthat was transformational for
you?
Samir Wagle (06:02):
My son is probably my biggest teacher.
He has this amazing ability toforgive almost instantaneously.
And he's 13 now and he's stillthe same way.
An incredible number ofmistakes.
I am so incredibly human.
It is hilarious.
And I'll be like, hey, I'msorry.
And he'll be like that's okay,and for him it is completely
(06:24):
gone, like there's no residue.
He's not thinking about it aweek later.
Me, you know, I want to put inthe ledger and I'm going to use
that ammunition when I need toright next time.
And for my son he does not.
And so watching him in thatmoment at five, realizing that
he was fine, made me realizethat all the external stuff I
(06:48):
thought I needed in order tocreate the life I needed was
exactly that.
It wasn't truth.
Max Chopovsky (06:56):
I mean, isn't it crazy how you know if you think
about kids, they don't have anyof the baggage that we
accumulate over our lives, andso, for them, being in the
moment is the default.
It's not the exception, it'sthe rule.
And in times like this some ofyou know our darkest hours we
(07:17):
can look at our kids and be likethis is what I need to do more
of.
I need to be more in the momentand realize that, hey, it's
going to be okay, yeah, Right,and like the irony of the fact
that the student has become theteacher without even realizing
it, right, and he has no idea hehad no idea when he picked up
(07:38):
the stick that he was literallyin the process of changing his
father's perspective on life.
Samir Wagle (07:45):
Yeah, and the beauty of that is there's a
speaker I heard who talked aboutwe tend to look at pain as bad,
and his point was what if youthink of like earth as finishing
school?
This isn't designed to be likea woo-woo type conversation, but
what if you thought of earth asfinishing school?
And in any school, you're goingto need exams and what pain is
(08:09):
is telling you that you are offtrack and there's a lesson to be
learned to bring you on track.
And so if you start to look atthe challenges in your life and
go, hey, okay, great, this isabout learning, this isn't about
someone is inconveniencing me.
Like there is something herethat I need to do in order to
continue my journey and that'shelpful to me.
(08:31):
Like is to look at that,because I think often, as humans
, we often have differentexperiences on the surface, so
the content is different, butthe context is often the same.
We're all learning the samekind of lessons here.
Max Chopovsky (08:48):
Yeah, did you feel like on the way back that
your mind was running a millionmiles an hour about next steps,
or were you still trying to sortof be in that moment of
inflection that you kind of knewyou were in?
Samir Wagle (09:05):
I moved into a place of peace.
There was a million, millionmillion miles an hour looking at
my son play with this stickthat we should have kept.
Now that I think about it andjust realizing that it'll be
okay and there's so much I can'tcontrol and that has been so
much in my racket through lifeis I want to control things, I
(09:27):
want to control outcomes and Iwant to control outcomes and if
that doesn't happen, I'm angry.
So anger becomes part of mylife, and the reason I want to
control outcomes is because I'mscared.
I mean, underneath it all isthis fear.
If I don't have this, what willhappen to me?
What will happen to me?
So the journey as we kind oftalk about is me trying to shift
from these places of anger andfear as two really pervasive
(09:51):
parts of my life to somethingthat's a little bit more
peaceful and one that's full ofacceptance.
Max Chopovsky (09:58):
And I think that can only come with age, because,
ultimately, what you're talkingabout is letting go, and
letting go so damn hard becauseof the uncertainty of what comes
next.
Right, but the misconceptionthat I think a lot of people
have, and the misconception thatI had when I was younger,
because I was born in what wasthe former Soviet Union, where
(10:20):
your life is very linear.
There's something very specificthat you do.
You don't worry about hobbiesor fun.
Go get a job.
It's relatively secure becauseof communism, right, and so
everything is linear, and yourparents have an expectation of
this linear progression throughlife.
And so that is how I came up.
(10:42):
But what I realized is thatactually, what you have to do is
relinquish control, because allof the best experiences that
people have usually come fromsome sort of surprise.
Something unexpected yieldssome of your most fulfilling
experiences.
(11:03):
Right, case in point when youleft your house to go on a walk
with your son, you had no cluethis was going to happen.
You were just like I'm having aborderline panic attack.
I have nothing figured out.
So you were in that dark placethat you just were so allergic
to, right, and you were like Ijust need to go.
I just need to get out, I'mgoing to take him, we're going
(11:23):
to go, and you were vulnerablein that moment and I think that
made you open to this experience.
But ultimately, giving upcontrol is.
For me personally, it was oneof the hardest things I've ever
had to do, but if you talk toanybody who's ever done anything
really interesting, it wasrooted in giving up control.
(11:45):
You can't will your life intobeing what you want it to be the
vast majority of the time.
That's the crazy thing about itto me is that was a time when
you gave up control without evenrealizing it.
That had to happen for the nextthing to happen.
Samir Wagle (12:04):
Yeah, you know, we were talking about kids before
we got online and one of theinteresting things is, when I
grew up, it was very clear to methat you have to go to college.
The path is you go to college,you work as hard as you can, you
make sure people like you andyou move up the ladder, and
that's the way the world works.
And my wife and I talk with myson and we don't say that
(12:27):
anymore.
We now look and go.
We say yeah, if college is whatyou want, great.
And if a gap year is what seemslike what it is, you still have
to do something.
This is not Xbox 365, right, butit doesn't have to be college.
If you want to go into trades,fantastic.
Find what resonates with youand you will be okay.
(12:48):
And it is so interestingbecause there is such that part
of me that looks at experiencesmy son has and says and wants to
grade him.
That's good, that's bad, Ishould help.
One of the things I work hardis to remember that I am a guide
.
I am a guide for my son, buthe's not.
Max Chopovsky (13:06):
It's his path to lead, but that's so hard to do
as a parent, incredibly.
If you want to protect them,you don't want to see them hurt,
right, and so when you see themhurt, you feel like you're
failing as a parent becausethey're hurting.
But in reality you'resucceeding as a parent because
if they fall down, at least youcan be there when they get back
(13:29):
up and help provide the context.
Okay, okay, have you ever seenthe Bear?
No, okay, first of all, youmust watch the show.
It's set in Chicago, as youprobably know, and it's Mr Beef,
so it's Orleans and I want tosay Huron.
I mean, it's right there inRiver North.
We're just finishing up thesecond season and in the episode
(13:51):
that we watched last night thisis not a spoiler, but there are
two characters sitting in a carand one of them asks the other
you know, you've raised kids,what advice would you have for
me?
And he said it wouldn't be tohave kids at all.
And I was like that was funny,but also like such a lost
opportunity, right.
And then she's like, okay, andshe's about to get out of the
(14:13):
car and he goes the advice Iwould give you is to let the
kids make some mistakes.
Let them learn the lessons thehard way and don't worry so much
because they'll be okay.
And when my wife and I questionkind of, we're really hard on
ourselves as parents and so whenwe question ourselves around
(14:37):
how many activities they'redoing or something that's
happening in school we werehaving one of these
conversations, we're talking tosomebody about this and they
said something to me that stayedwith me and it's now advice
that I give to other people,because you know, everybody
loves parenting advice.
Clearly, the advice I give themis if you're even asking the
question you're doing fine,right yeah?
Samir Wagle (14:59):
Like you're doing fine, well, and you have three
girls right?
Yeah, that's a full house on.
Max Chopovsky (15:05):
It's a full house .
It's a very full house.
It's very loud and veryboisterous and very rambunctious
and we are exhausted by the endof the day.
But I also know that it's goingto fly by before we know it.
And I heard a quote somewherethat was like the days are long,
the years are short, beautiful.
(15:25):
So like you could just feellike, damn, it's a full house,
they're going crazy, I havenothing left to give.
And it is two o'clock in theafternoon, but pretty soon it's
going to be two o'clock in theafternoon on their 18th birthday
.
And then you're like damn.
Samir Wagle (15:42):
you know and do you see any difference in how you
and your wife treat youryoungest versus your eldest?
Totally.
Max Chopovsky (15:49):
Yeah, and in fact the one we're most concerned
about is our middle one, becauseshe, as any middle child,
usually doesn't get as muchattention, and so we try to be
proactive around spending timewith her and spending time with
each one of them to make themfeel sort of like they're
getting individual attentionfrom us.
But yeah, it's hard, I meanit's not easy, but just like
(16:13):
with anything in life, we'rejust doing our best.
We're just trying, likeeveryone else, to do our best
and do the right thing.
Samir Wagle (16:19):
Yeah, I tell Renee I know my son's going to be in
therapy.
It's just, whatever he'llchoose, which thing it was that
we missed.
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky (16:28):
That's probably true for a lot of people.
That's probably true for a lotof people, I mean, and also it's
a matter of explaining to themthat, hey, that's okay.
Sometimes it's hard for us toprocess our feelings, and
sometimes we need to talk tosomebody about it.
Samir Wagle (16:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
And again, we are scouts, right, we are guides, and so the path
is theirs, the journey istheirs, and again, it's such a
gift to me because there is somuch that I still need to learn.
I mean, there will always be somuch for me to learn and just
this ability of being able tonow look.
I think another thing that cameout of it, as you've talked
(17:01):
about, is we are all students.
Every moment is thatopportunity to both be present
and to see what we can get fromthis moment.
Yeah, and that is so hard, sohard, right, because at least my
mind is always thinking aboutoh well, here's a 97 things on
my to-do list.
Yup, here's the things that Iwish were different.
What I try to work on is how doI tighten the amount of time it
(17:24):
takes for me to get back topresence?
So, there's always going to bethings that send me off the edge
, right?
So then the work is great.
I know I'm going to go off theledge.
How quickly can I get back up?
Totally?
That's where the work is.
Max Chopovsky (17:40):
Are there any sort of exercises or modalities
that you found are useful foryou outside of the regular
meditation practice, like in themiddle of the day when
something is happening, is theresomething you can do in the
moment?
Samir Wagle (17:51):
For me it has just been that practice, I mean, and
my day is structured to give mekind of breaks.
So I have meditation in themorning and then I have an
intense work period until about11.
I hit the gym and then I have ameditation middle of the day to
help me just kind of reflectand reset, and then I go in and
(18:12):
do kind of another hard sprintin the afternoon and I find that
just having that break and thatcomplete detachment from the
work I'm supposed to do, atleast during weekdays, is quite
a gift.
The other thing I do and I'mgetting better at it is I'm more
vulnerable when things aregoing wrong.
My normal tendency is to goSamira can handle it, samira
(18:33):
should keep it inside and Samirashould fix it and not talk to
anybody.
And the push now is theopposite, which is okay.
I'm feeling a little disturbed.
Who of my friends can I calland go?
Hey, this is what's going onfor me.
Am I crazy?
And often they're like yeah,you're not completely doing
everything you need to do, andit's like okay, I can swallow
(18:55):
that and then I can go on right.
Or I'm sort of like no, you'reall good and why don't you let
it go.
Forgive them, they're human too.
Max Chopovsky (19:03):
The fact that, a you have friends that you can
call about this.
The fact that, b you can behonest about it, and then C,
most importantly, that you can,if they say no, you're crazy,
actually internalize that andsay you know what?
Yes, I understand that thereare things I need to change.
(19:24):
That is a gift in and of itself.
I hope you realize that.
Samir Wagle (19:29):
Yeah, and I just want to be clear that if we
think I'm doing this all thetime, that is clearly become a
fiction episode of your show.
So it's work right.
It is just you're makingprogress where you can, yeah,
but that's what I try toremember.
I try to work really hard tocall people or just to reach out
to somebody and go.
I'm off.
I think that's one of thegreatest things I do is just to
(19:49):
get another opinion from someone.
I trust that's amazing.
Max Chopovsky (19:53):
That's amazing that you do that.
If we go back to the story thatyou told, what would you say is
the moral of that story?
Samir Wagle (19:59):
To be a student.
Two things, I would say be astudent and work on being
present.
Because the big thing then waslike the realization for me at
that moment was in that momentthere really was nothing wrong.
In that moment we had a house,we had to play food, my son's
happy, it was me being in thefuture, me worrying about the
(20:22):
past.
So it was just the value ofjust in this.
I think for most of us, Iimagine for most of your
listeners, in every singlemoment we're pretty much okay,
hard to remember.
Max Chopovsky (20:36):
But worth the reminder.
I found this with myself.
I can take, depending on howI'm feeling, an identical set of
facts and interpret itcompletely differently.
Depending on how I'm feelingthat day, I could look at it and
be like this is fantastic, whata great opportunity.
Or, depending on how I'mfeeling, I could be like this is
the worst thing that literallyhas ever happened to me.
(20:56):
Oh yeah, and it's such a goodreminder that the narrative is
in our head, not external.
So you have told some wonderfulstories in your day.
You've also listened to somegreat stories.
So, in your mind, what makesfor a good story?
What are good stories havingcommon?
Samir Wagle (21:16):
I think good stories are vulnerable.
There is something that youconnect to the storyteller
easily, so I love the idea ofauthenticity and vulnerability
in a story.
To me, that's what draws me in.
I'm seeing a real person, theperson behind the mask, which is
honestly what you do right.
That's why this is making aplug for Max's podcast right now
(21:39):
.
Which is why this is suchamazing podcast because that's
what it is about is that desireto really understand who people
are, because I think we all havea lot of shared experiences.
I really believe we could takeany single person on this planet
, let's say, over the age offive, and if we sat down and
just listened to their story, wewould go.
We could make a movie out ofthis.
(22:00):
It's just an amazing experience, yeah.
Max Chopovsky (22:05):
A lot of people don't share their stories and I
feel like everybody has a goodstory and it's just a question
of are you willing to listen toit?
Yeah, I think that's underrated.
I actually think that peoplearen't used to being heard
intensely, like that's not athing.
That's generally becauseeverybody's ear point is in
(22:25):
their mind.
They're in their head, you know, thinking about the next thing
they have to say or like thenext thing they have to do.
So I think I think it'sunderrated.
We talked about what makes agood story, what makes for a
good storyteller.
Samir Wagle (22:39):
The same characteristics are obviously
there and for me it's some senseof joy.
They are having a lifeexperience that allows them to
go like hey, I want to sharewith you that enthusiasm, that
authenticity around.
I want to share something withyou because hopefully it is of
value to you in service, likeless about pushing the agenda
(23:00):
and more about that change.
You know I talked to a lot ofsenior executives who are like,
can you take a quick look at myresume?
And that's one of the things wetalk about is there are so many
resumes that are like these arethe things I've done, so I
deserve this, and I suggest tomindset of what if it was more
(23:21):
about what you can offer, whatif your entire resume was about
what you can offer and what youoffer the world?
And I think that's what I thinkyou see in those people that
are great storytellers.
I like that.
Max Chopovsky (23:32):
And it makes people listen.
Samir Wagle (23:34):
Hopefully.
Max Chopovsky (23:36):
Now you have a son.
How do you use storytelling inyour personal life?
Samir Wagle (23:42):
Oh gosh, all the time and it goes back to this
idea of being a guide I havefound that my personal
experiences are really seemed tohave some impact on my son and
I think part of it is.
I certainly was guilty of this.
There can be a tendency for usto make especially fathers.
I think we can deify them.
(24:04):
My father is perfect.
I remember my father's, thesame height I am, which is the
towering height of five eight,and I remember being convinced
he was like at least six three.
And he's like I'm not six three, I'm like you're not six three.
And so I think it's the sametype of thing with my son.
Like I will tell my son I makea mistake, and he always looks
at me like are you telling methe truth?
(24:26):
And so the stories around themistakes I make I think have a
lot of value for a couple ofreasons.
One, it's there and two is itdeepens the quality of our
relationship.
Like every time I tell him I'mlike listen, I have done this
and that was not great.
And here's the consequences ofthat.
And I totally get you have yourown life to lead.
(24:49):
So that's how it shows up inlife.
We use it quite a bit and forwhat it's worth, I encourage my
son to tell me stories.
Oh, I like that.
Open ended, open ended, justlike tell me what's going on,
tell me what you're thinkingabout, tell me, like whatever it
is, and it's fascinating.
(25:09):
It is really fascinating and Ilearned so much from things like
that.
I'm like me as a student, right, I love that.
Max Chopovsky (25:17):
I'm going to have to use that.
I mean, our girls have noshortage of enthusiasm for
telling stories, so a lot of thetime it's a question of
actually also valid advice forstorytelling.
How can you condense that?
Because they would just keepgoing.
But it's funny because, if youremember, at college your
(25:37):
professors probably startedevery lecture with a story and a
lot of books start with a storyand I love that because, well,
it's entertaining, but also itkind of pulls you in.
You're like what's going to bethe connection to today's lesson
from the story?
And I was waiting with my two ofmy kids for the bus this
morning and we just startedtalking about cars.
(25:59):
Mitsubishi drove by and theywere like oh, what kind of cars
that I told them.
And I told them I used to driveMitsubishi a long time ago and
the topic went to seat belts,because we always make them wear
their seat belts, and I saidyou know that car?
I was in a really serious caraccident that this truck pulled
out in front of me.
I hit him going almost 70 milesan hour.
(26:20):
If I weren't wearing my seatbelt I would have been killed.
And so we went into all of thedynamics and physics of airbags
and whatever, and they asked mea million questions.
At the end of the day, that wasprobably a more effective way
to illustrate to them that yougot away your seat belt.
And it's all about storytelling, no question.
So let me ask you this Doesevery story have to have a moral
(26:43):
?
Samir Wagle (26:45):
No, I think stories can entertain Right, and I
think you can tell stories.
I tell stories sometimes fromlike just a place of just pure
love for the beauty of thesharing, and I don't know if
anyone needs to get anythingfrom it aside from us having a
shared experience.
Like to your point, storiesdraw us in, they pull us in, and
(27:10):
so now I'm curious about yourthoughts about that question.
Max Chopovsky (27:15):
It's funny.
In the last two weeks I've hadtwo people ask me that and
before that nobody asked me that.
So I actually think every storyhas a moral, whether or not
it's explicit.
So if you hear a story and it'spurely entertainment, something
happens, there's some shift,there's some character arc,
there's a beginning, middle andan end.
There has to be someprogression in that story and
(27:40):
there's a moral tied to thatprogression in my mind.
That's just my opinion.
I think that there's a moral toevery story, if you just look
for it, even the entertainingstories that are just there to
be an escape from reality.
I think there's a moral theretoo.
Samir Wagle (28:00):
And how do you define moral, because I think
that would be a big part of it,right.
Max Chopovsky (28:05):
It is a takeaway that you learn through the
protagonist of the story,something that they learn over
the course of that narrativethat you can then take away
without having to haveparticipated in their journey.
That's how I would define it.
(28:27):
It's some sort of lesson.
It's some sort of lesson.
Yeah, I think it's amazing.
Yeah, what is one of yourfavorite books that gets
storytelling right?
Samir Wagle (28:41):
I feel this is so cliche, but I've always loved to
kill a mockingbird.
It was a book I read for thefirst time fairly young, right
Like I think it was like secondgrade and I've probably read it
six times since then and I lovea couple of things I really does
(29:01):
.
One is taking Scoutsperspective is super powerful.
You know, taking a Scoutsperspective it seems to be a
theme of today is super powerfuland it feels like an incredibly
effective way to deal with whatwas a very sensitive issue, and
so I love just that combinationof moving things through.
So that's certainly that's inmy pantheon.
Max Chopovsky (29:25):
What a great answer from somebody who has
accomplished so much in thebusiness realm that one of your
favorite books is actually puresort of fiction, with almost the
fable that has an obvious moral.
Samir Wagle (29:41):
Yeah, very much so.
So last question for you.
Max Chopovsky (29:48):
If you could have five minutes with your
20-year-old self, what would yousay to him?
What would you say to him?
Samir Wagle (29:57):
I would say relax, yeah, yeah and I'm sure others
have said that as well it allworks out.
It all works out.
And the idea of if you're justwilling to kind of like enjoy
the ride the next 30, becauseI'm in my 50s the next 30 years
of your life will be a lot offun.
Gotta give up the control first, though.
(30:18):
Absolutely Like.
Just you don't have to be X, yor Z, just enjoy the ride and do
your best.
I mean it very much is.
Occasionally we talk aboutthese things like give up
control, and I've talked topeople who are very much on the
other side, which is, well, I'mnot going to work today and
that's up to someone else.
Like that's not me, that'ssomeone else.
(30:38):
It's like no, the way thisworks is at least for me.
I work as hard as I can and Ireally do work as hard as I can
and then, after I've worked ashard as I can, then I give up
control.
I do my best, and then Irealize that it's out of my
hands.
That's a critical distinction.
Max Chopovsky (30:57):
By the way, I'm glad that we mentioned that.
I'm glad that you said itbecause you're right, there are
people that have this sort offatalistic attitude and they
just let it go but, just likeyou, had to turn things around
by working as hard as you canand then giving up control.
That's a critical step.
So well, you mentioned that.
(31:17):
Yeah Well, this was awesome.
Sameer Wagley, thinker, leader,searcher, thank you for being
on the show.
Samir Wagle (31:29):
Pleasure to be here .
Max.
Thanks for inviting me, Ofcourse.
Max Chopovsky (31:32):
For show notes and more head over to maspodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was Morrill of the Story.
I'm Max Tropowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
This is Moral of the Story Interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, max Chepofsky.
Today's guest is Samir Wagle,the founder of 1111 Partners and
the kind of guy who's beenwilling to make the hard choices
necessary to craft the life hewants.
After getting his MBA from theUniversity of Chicago Booth
(00:25):
School of Business, samir doveheadfirst into hamburgers.
The glorious Golden Archeswelcomed the freshly educated
Boothie as the director ofoperations, and, although he
wouldn't stay long at McDonald's, samir's path would eventually
culminate in the role ofpresident and CEO of Protein Bar
, where he oversaw strategicimprovements that drove a 40%
increase in sales and areduction in employee turnover.
(00:48):
Very nice, but not really.
You see, samir realized that hewas no longer happy in his
marriage and also hated his job.
A realignment was in order, soover the course of four months,
he got divorced and quit.
With nothing lined up, hisimmigrant parents, who figured
by this point that they hadnothing to worry about, started
(01:08):
to get worried again.
Meanwhile, samir asked himselfthis crazy question who do I
want to be?
And then he asked the criticalfollow-up question that made the
difference between wishing andaction.
What am I willing to give up toget there?
As usually happens in times ofintrospection, it got a little
dark.
He pictured himself in a smallgarden apartment with a bottle
(01:29):
of vodka as his only companion.
Fortunately, samir arrived at aconclusion that would drive the
next chapter of his career.
External success doesn'tautomatically deliver internal
happiness.
After realizing that he lovedbuilding high performance teams,
samir founded 1111 Partners, anexecutive search firm focused
on finding and developingleaders for high-growth,
(01:50):
purpose-driven organizations.
The focus at 1111 has its rootsin the Japanese philosophy of
ikigai, which, roughlytranslated, means your reason
for being.
Samir and his team want to finddeveloping leaders at the
intersection of their passionand skill set, which,
incidentally, not only makes forengaged people but, I would
wager, probably reduces turnoveras well.
(02:11):
And as for Samir's own ikigai,well, in addition to his firm,
it involves twice-dailymeditation, lots of home cooking
and, in his own words, stirringup trouble with his wife and
son.
He had to learn some lessonsthe hard way, but he's emerged
from the crucible all the betterfor it.
As Samir likes to say, now hisinsides and outsides are very
(02:33):
much in alignment.
Samir, welcome to the show.
It's great to be here.
Thanks, max, so you are here totell us a story.
So set the stage.
Is there anything we need toknow before we get started?
Samir Wagle (02:45):
Yeah, well, I was going to talk a little bit more
about my left-turned albuquerque, which is what you referred to
in your opening remarks, andthere was a part that was really
really dark, like when we werethinking about that very bottom
of that time, and so I thoughtI'd go a little deeper in that.
If that's of interest to you,let's go Tell me a story, all
right?
So, as you kind of talked about, there was this point where I
(03:07):
also took a look at my life andI was technically doing really
well.
I had all the external stuffthat felt really great to me,
and inside it was not fun at all.
I was not happy and, as youmentioned, over the next 18
months I went to my then wife,now co-parent, and said I think
(03:27):
we need to get a divorce, wentto the board six months later
and said this is wonderful, butI don't want to do this anymore.
And then about 10 minutes laterI decided to stop drinking, and
that's a lot of change at onetime.
And so there was a point whereall of these are going
simultaneously on and it wasfeeling very messy.
It was a time where the divorcehad hit its lowest point, when
(03:51):
you have a company in transitionand you're trying to find the
new CEO, you're not making anydramatic changes, even though
changes needed to be made, andyou're also not talking to the
team about what change is coming, and so there's tension that is
created there, and then there'sjust adjusting your lifestyle
and the changes that come withthat, and so there was just a
day that I felt incredibly dark.
(04:11):
It was just a very hard day.
The divorce got very messy,there was a lot of tension with
the private equity firm and atwork, and I got home and I
grabbed my son, who was five Ithink he was five at the time.
I was like, hey, let's just gofor a walk.
And we're walking.
And I remember at the time justthinking I don't know what I'm
(04:34):
going to do, like I literallydon't know what I'm going to do.
And the stories I was tellingwere things like all of my
friends were built up during our13 years of marriage.
I will have no friends.
I don't have a job because Iwas the kind of person that I
resigned and I didn't haveanother job lined up because
this is part of what caused myimmigrant Indian parents some
(04:57):
hard-topped tations you canimagine.
And on and on and on, and so itfelt like all doors were closed
and I'm walking my son, whohonestly is the most important
thing in my life and he pickedup a stick and he goes hey,
daddy, I've got a stick.
And I'm like great.
And he proceeded to play withthis stick and he's like I'm a
(05:18):
knight, stick is a sword.
And then after that he became ahigh wire tightrope walker with
a sword or with his stick, andthen he was a ninja and I looked
at my child and I realized atthat moment that we would all be
okay, because, no matter whatwas going on my life, I was
(05:39):
pretty sure that in the suburbsof Chicago I could find a stick.
And that's that moment that Ihonestly think.
That was a moment that theclouds got a little lighter for
me and momentum shifted theother way.
Wow.
Max Chopovsky (05:52):
What was it you think about him picking up the
stick?
What was it about that momentthat was transformational for
you?
Samir Wagle (06:02):
My son is probably my biggest teacher.
He has this amazing ability toforgive almost instantaneously.
And he's 13 now and he's stillthe same way.
An incredible number ofmistakes.
I am so incredibly human.
It is hilarious.
And I'll be like, hey, I'msorry.
And he'll be like that's okay,and for him it is completely
(06:24):
gone, like there's no residue.
He's not thinking about it aweek later.
Me, you know, I want to put inthe ledger and I'm going to use
that ammunition when I need toright next time.
And for my son he does not.
And so watching him in thatmoment at five, realizing that
he was fine, made me realizethat all the external stuff I
(06:48):
thought I needed in order tocreate the life I needed was
exactly that.
It wasn't truth.
Max Chopovsky (06:56):
I mean, isn't it crazy how you know if you think
about kids, they don't have anyof the baggage that we
accumulate over our lives, andso, for them, being in the
moment is the default.
It's not the exception, it'sthe rule.
And in times like this some ofyou know our darkest hours we
(07:17):
can look at our kids and be likethis is what I need to do more
of.
I need to be more in the momentand realize that, hey, it's
going to be okay, yeah, Right,and like the irony of the fact
that the student has become theteacher without even realizing
it, right, and he has no idea hehad no idea when he picked up
(07:38):
the stick that he was literallyin the process of changing his
father's perspective on life.
Samir Wagle (07:45):
Yeah, and the beauty of that is there's a
speaker I heard who talked aboutwe tend to look at pain as bad,
and his point was what if youthink of like earth as finishing
school?
This isn't designed to be likea woo-woo type conversation, but
what if you thought of earth asfinishing school?
And in any school, you're goingto need exams and what pain is
(08:09):
is telling you that you are offtrack and there's a lesson to be
learned to bring you on track.
And so if you start to look atthe challenges in your life and
go, hey, okay, great, this isabout learning, this isn't about
someone is inconveniencing me.
Like there is something herethat I need to do in order to
continue my journey and that'shelpful to me.
(08:31):
Like is to look at that,because I think often, as humans
, we often have differentexperiences on the surface, so
the content is different, butthe context is often the same.
We're all learning the samekind of lessons here.
Max Chopovsky (08:48):
Yeah, did you feel like on the way back that
your mind was running a millionmiles an hour about next steps,
or were you still trying to sortof be in that moment of
inflection that you kind of knewyou were in?
Samir Wagle (09:05):
I moved into a place of peace.
There was a million, millionmillion miles an hour looking at
my son play with this stickthat we should have kept.
Now that I think about it andjust realizing that it'll be
okay and there's so much I can'tcontrol and that has been so
much in my racket through lifeis I want to control things, I
(09:27):
want to control outcomes and Iwant to control outcomes and if
that doesn't happen, I'm angry.
So anger becomes part of mylife, and the reason I want to
control outcomes is because I'mscared.
I mean, underneath it all isthis fear.
If I don't have this, what willhappen to me?
What will happen to me?
So the journey as we kind oftalk about is me trying to shift
from these places of anger andfear as two really pervasive
(09:51):
parts of my life to somethingthat's a little bit more
peaceful and one that's full ofacceptance.
Max Chopovsky (09:58):
And I think that can only come with age, because,
ultimately, what you're talkingabout is letting go, and
letting go so damn hard becauseof the uncertainty of what comes
next.
Right, but the misconceptionthat I think a lot of people
have, and the misconception thatI had when I was younger,
because I was born in what wasthe former Soviet Union, where
(10:20):
your life is very linear.
There's something very specificthat you do.
You don't worry about hobbiesor fun.
Go get a job.
It's relatively secure becauseof communism, right, and so
everything is linear, and yourparents have an expectation of
this linear progression throughlife.
And so that is how I came up.
(10:42):
But what I realized is thatactually, what you have to do is
relinquish control, because allof the best experiences that
people have usually come fromsome sort of surprise.
Something unexpected yieldssome of your most fulfilling
experiences.
(11:03):
Right, case in point when youleft your house to go on a walk
with your son, you had no cluethis was going to happen.
You were just like I'm having aborderline panic attack.
I have nothing figured out.
So you were in that dark placethat you just were so allergic
to, right, and you were like Ijust need to go.
I just need to get out, I'mgoing to take him, we're going
(11:23):
to go, and you were vulnerablein that moment and I think that
made you open to this experience.
But ultimately, giving upcontrol is.
For me personally, it was oneof the hardest things I've ever
had to do, but if you talk toanybody who's ever done anything
really interesting, it wasrooted in giving up control.
(11:45):
You can't will your life intobeing what you want it to be the
vast majority of the time.
That's the crazy thing about itto me is that was a time when
you gave up control without evenrealizing it.
That had to happen for the nextthing to happen.
Samir Wagle (12:04):
Yeah, you know, we were talking about kids before
we got online and one of theinteresting things is, when I
grew up, it was very clear to methat you have to go to college.
The path is you go to college,you work as hard as you can, you
make sure people like you andyou move up the ladder, and
that's the way the world works.
And my wife and I talk with myson and we don't say that
(12:27):
anymore.
We now look and go.
We say yeah, if college is whatyou want, great.
And if a gap year is what seemslike what it is, you still have
to do something.
This is not Xbox 365, right, butit doesn't have to be college.
If you want to go into trades,fantastic.
Find what resonates with youand you will be okay.
(12:48):
And it is so interestingbecause there is such that part
of me that looks at experiencesmy son has and says and wants to
grade him.
That's good, that's bad, Ishould help.
One of the things I work hardis to remember that I am a guide
.
I am a guide for my son, buthe's not.
Max Chopovsky (13:06):
It's his path to lead, but that's so hard to do
as a parent, incredibly.
If you want to protect them,you don't want to see them hurt,
right, and so when you see themhurt, you feel like you're
failing as a parent becausethey're hurting.
But in reality you'resucceeding as a parent because
if they fall down, at least youcan be there when they get back
(13:29):
up and help provide the context.
Okay, okay, have you ever seenthe Bear?
No, okay, first of all, youmust watch the show.
It's set in Chicago, as youprobably know, and it's Mr Beef,
so it's Orleans and I want tosay Huron.
I mean, it's right there inRiver North.
We're just finishing up thesecond season and in the episode
(13:51):
that we watched last night thisis not a spoiler, but there are
two characters sitting in a carand one of them asks the other
you know, you've raised kids,what advice would you have for
me?
And he said it wouldn't be tohave kids at all.
And I was like that was funny,but also like such a lost
opportunity, right.
And then she's like, okay, andshe's about to get out of the
(14:13):
car and he goes the advice Iwould give you is to let the
kids make some mistakes.
Let them learn the lessons thehard way and don't worry so much
because they'll be okay.
And when my wife and I questionkind of, we're really hard on
ourselves as parents and so whenwe question ourselves around
(14:37):
how many activities they'redoing or something that's
happening in school we werehaving one of these
conversations, we're talking tosomebody about this and they
said something to me that stayedwith me and it's now advice
that I give to other people,because you know, everybody
loves parenting advice.
Clearly, the advice I give themis if you're even asking the
question you're doing fine,right yeah?
Samir Wagle (14:59):
Like you're doing fine, well, and you have three
girls right?
Yeah, that's a full house on.
Max Chopovsky (15:05):
It's a full house .
It's a very full house.
It's very loud and veryboisterous and very rambunctious
and we are exhausted by the endof the day.
But I also know that it's goingto fly by before we know it.
And I heard a quote somewherethat was like the days are long,
the years are short, beautiful.
(15:25):
So like you could just feellike, damn, it's a full house,
they're going crazy, I havenothing left to give.
And it is two o'clock in theafternoon, but pretty soon it's
going to be two o'clock in theafternoon on their 18th birthday
.
And then you're like damn.
Samir Wagle (15:42):
you know and do you see any difference in how you
and your wife treat youryoungest versus your eldest?
Totally.
Max Chopovsky (15:49):
Yeah, and in fact the one we're most concerned
about is our middle one, becauseshe, as any middle child,
usually doesn't get as muchattention, and so we try to be
proactive around spending timewith her and spending time with
each one of them to make themfeel sort of like they're
getting individual attentionfrom us.
But yeah, it's hard, I meanit's not easy, but just like
(16:13):
with anything in life, we'rejust doing our best.
We're just trying, likeeveryone else, to do our best
and do the right thing.
Samir Wagle (16:19):
Yeah, I tell Renee I know my son's going to be in
therapy.
It's just, whatever he'llchoose, which thing it was that
we missed.
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky (16:28):
That's probably true for a lot of people.
That's probably true for a lotof people, I mean, and also it's
a matter of explaining to themthat, hey, that's okay.
Sometimes it's hard for us toprocess our feelings, and
sometimes we need to talk tosomebody about it.
Samir Wagle (16:40):
Yeah, absolutely.
And again, we are scouts, right, we are guides, and so the path
is theirs, the journey istheirs, and again, it's such a
gift to me because there is somuch that I still need to learn.
I mean, there will always be somuch for me to learn and just
this ability of being able tonow look.
I think another thing that cameout of it, as you've talked
(17:01):
about, is we are all students.
Every moment is thatopportunity to both be present
and to see what we can get fromthis moment.
Yeah, and that is so hard, sohard, right, because at least my
mind is always thinking aboutoh well, here's a 97 things on
my to-do list.
Yup, here's the things that Iwish were different.
What I try to work on is how doI tighten the amount of time it
(17:24):
takes for me to get back topresence?
So, there's always going to bethings that send me off the edge
, right?
So then the work is great.
I know I'm going to go off theledge.
How quickly can I get back up?
Totally?
That's where the work is.
Max Chopovsky (17:40):
Are there any sort of exercises or modalities
that you found are useful foryou outside of the regular
meditation practice, like in themiddle of the day when
something is happening, is theresomething you can do in the
moment?
Samir Wagle (17:51):
For me it has just been that practice, I mean, and
my day is structured to give mekind of breaks.
So I have meditation in themorning and then I have an
intense work period until about11.
I hit the gym and then I have ameditation middle of the day to
help me just kind of reflectand reset, and then I go in and
(18:12):
do kind of another hard sprintin the afternoon and I find that
just having that break and thatcomplete detachment from the
work I'm supposed to do, atleast during weekdays, is quite
a gift.
The other thing I do and I'mgetting better at it is I'm more
vulnerable when things aregoing wrong.
My normal tendency is to goSamira can handle it, samira
(18:33):
should keep it inside and Samirashould fix it and not talk to
anybody.
And the push now is theopposite, which is okay.
I'm feeling a little disturbed.
Who of my friends can I calland go?
Hey, this is what's going onfor me.
Am I crazy?
And often they're like yeah,you're not completely doing
everything you need to do, andit's like okay, I can swallow
(18:55):
that and then I can go on right.
Or I'm sort of like no, you'reall good and why don't you let
it go.
Forgive them, they're human too.
Max Chopovsky (19:03):
The fact that, a you have friends that you can
call about this.
The fact that, b you can behonest about it, and then C,
most importantly, that you can,if they say no, you're crazy,
actually internalize that andsay you know what?
Yes, I understand that thereare things I need to change.
(19:24):
That is a gift in and of itself.
I hope you realize that.
Samir Wagle (19:29):
Yeah, and I just want to be clear that if we
think I'm doing this all thetime, that is clearly become a
fiction episode of your show.
So it's work right.
It is just you're makingprogress where you can, yeah,
but that's what I try toremember.
I try to work really hard tocall people or just to reach out
to somebody and go.
I'm off.
I think that's one of thegreatest things I do is just to
(19:49):
get another opinion from someone.
I trust that's amazing.
Max Chopovsky (19:53):
That's amazing that you do that.
If we go back to the story thatyou told, what would you say is
the moral of that story?
Samir Wagle (19:59):
To be a student.
Two things, I would say be astudent and work on being
present.
Because the big thing then waslike the realization for me at
that moment was in that momentthere really was nothing wrong.
In that moment we had a house,we had to play food, my son's
happy, it was me being in thefuture, me worrying about the
(20:22):
past.
So it was just the value ofjust in this.
I think for most of us, Iimagine for most of your
listeners, in every singlemoment we're pretty much okay,
hard to remember.
Max Chopovsky (20:36):
But worth the reminder.
I found this with myself.
I can take, depending on howI'm feeling, an identical set of
facts and interpret itcompletely differently.
Depending on how I'm feelingthat day, I could look at it and
be like this is fantastic, whata great opportunity.
Or, depending on how I'mfeeling, I could be like this is
the worst thing that literallyhas ever happened to me.
(20:56):
Oh yeah, and it's such a goodreminder that the narrative is
in our head, not external.
So you have told some wonderfulstories in your day.
You've also listened to somegreat stories.
So, in your mind, what makesfor a good story?
What are good stories havingcommon?
Samir Wagle (21:16):
I think good stories are vulnerable.
There is something that youconnect to the storyteller
easily, so I love the idea ofauthenticity and vulnerability
in a story.
To me, that's what draws me in.
I'm seeing a real person, theperson behind the mask, which is
honestly what you do right.
That's why this is making aplug for Max's podcast right now
(21:39):
.
Which is why this is suchamazing podcast because that's
what it is about is that desireto really understand who people
are, because I think we all havea lot of shared experiences.
I really believe we could takeany single person on this planet
, let's say, over the age offive, and if we sat down and
just listened to their story, wewould go.
We could make a movie out ofthis.
(22:00):
It's just an amazing experience, yeah.
Max Chopovsky (22:05):
A lot of people don't share their stories and I
feel like everybody has a goodstory and it's just a question
of are you willing to listen toit?
Yeah, I think that's underrated.
I actually think that peoplearen't used to being heard
intensely, like that's not athing.
That's generally becauseeverybody's ear point is in
(22:25):
their mind.
They're in their head, you know, thinking about the next thing
they have to say or like thenext thing they have to do.
So I think I think it'sunderrated.
We talked about what makes agood story, what makes for a
good storyteller.
Samir Wagle (22:39):
The same characteristics are obviously
there and for me it's some senseof joy.
They are having a lifeexperience that allows them to
go like hey, I want to sharewith you that enthusiasm, that
authenticity around.
I want to share something withyou because hopefully it is of
value to you in service, likeless about pushing the agenda
(23:00):
and more about that change.
You know I talked to a lot ofsenior executives who are like,
can you take a quick look at myresume?
And that's one of the things wetalk about is there are so many
resumes that are like these arethe things I've done, so I
deserve this, and I suggest tomindset of what if it was more
(23:21):
about what you can offer, whatif your entire resume was about
what you can offer and what youoffer the world?
And I think that's what I thinkyou see in those people that
are great storytellers.
I like that.
Max Chopovsky (23:32):
And it makes people listen.
Samir Wagle (23:34):
Hopefully.
Max Chopovsky (23:36):
Now you have a son.
How do you use storytelling inyour personal life?
Samir Wagle (23:42):
Oh gosh, all the time and it goes back to this
idea of being a guide I havefound that my personal
experiences are really seemed tohave some impact on my son and
I think part of it is.
I certainly was guilty of this.
There can be a tendency for usto make especially fathers.
I think we can deify them.
(24:04):
My father is perfect.
I remember my father's, thesame height I am, which is the
towering height of five eight,and I remember being convinced
he was like at least six three.
And he's like I'm not six three, I'm like you're not six three.
And so I think it's the sametype of thing with my son.
Like I will tell my son I makea mistake, and he always looks
at me like are you telling methe truth?
(24:26):
And so the stories around themistakes I make I think have a
lot of value for a couple ofreasons.
One, it's there and two is itdeepens the quality of our
relationship.
Like every time I tell him I'mlike listen, I have done this
and that was not great.
And here's the consequences ofthat.
And I totally get you have yourown life to lead.
(24:49):
So that's how it shows up inlife.
We use it quite a bit and forwhat it's worth, I encourage my
son to tell me stories.
Oh, I like that.
Open ended, open ended, justlike tell me what's going on,
tell me what you're thinkingabout, tell me, like whatever it
is, and it's fascinating.
(25:09):
It is really fascinating and Ilearned so much from things like
that.
I'm like me as a student, right, I love that.
Max Chopovsky (25:17):
I'm going to have to use that.
I mean, our girls have noshortage of enthusiasm for
telling stories, so a lot of thetime it's a question of
actually also valid advice forstorytelling.
How can you condense that?
Because they would just keepgoing.
But it's funny because, if youremember, at college your
(25:37):
professors probably startedevery lecture with a story and a
lot of books start with a storyand I love that because, well,
it's entertaining, but also itkind of pulls you in.
You're like what's going to bethe connection to today's lesson
from the story?
And I was waiting with my two ofmy kids for the bus this
morning and we just startedtalking about cars.
(25:59):
Mitsubishi drove by and theywere like oh, what kind of cars
that I told them.
And I told them I used to driveMitsubishi a long time ago and
the topic went to seat belts,because we always make them wear
their seat belts, and I saidyou know that car?
I was in a really serious caraccident that this truck pulled
out in front of me.
I hit him going almost 70 milesan hour.
(26:20):
If I weren't wearing my seatbelt I would have been killed.
And so we went into all of thedynamics and physics of airbags
and whatever, and they asked mea million questions.
At the end of the day, that wasprobably a more effective way
to illustrate to them that yougot away your seat belt.
And it's all about storytelling, no question.
So let me ask you this Doesevery story have to have a moral
(26:43):
?
Samir Wagle (26:45):
No, I think stories can entertain Right, and I
think you can tell stories.
I tell stories sometimes fromlike just a place of just pure
love for the beauty of thesharing, and I don't know if
anyone needs to get anythingfrom it aside from us having a
shared experience.
Like to your point, storiesdraw us in, they pull us in, and
(27:10):
so now I'm curious about yourthoughts about that question.
Max Chopovsky (27:15):
It's funny.
In the last two weeks I've hadtwo people ask me that and
before that nobody asked me that.
So I actually think every storyhas a moral, whether or not
it's explicit.
So if you hear a story and it'spurely entertainment, something
happens, there's some shift,there's some character arc,
there's a beginning, middle andan end.
There has to be someprogression in that story and
(27:40):
there's a moral tied to thatprogression in my mind.
That's just my opinion.
I think that there's a moral toevery story, if you just look
for it, even the entertainingstories that are just there to
be an escape from reality.
I think there's a moral theretoo.
Samir Wagle (28:00):
And how do you define moral, because I think
that would be a big part of it,right.
Max Chopovsky (28:05):
It is a takeaway that you learn through the
protagonist of the story,something that they learn over
the course of that narrativethat you can then take away
without having to haveparticipated in their journey.
That's how I would define it.
(28:27):
It's some sort of lesson.
It's some sort of lesson.
Yeah, I think it's amazing.
Yeah, what is one of yourfavorite books that gets
storytelling right?
Samir Wagle (28:41):
I feel this is so cliche, but I've always loved to
kill a mockingbird.
It was a book I read for thefirst time fairly young, right
Like I think it was like secondgrade and I've probably read it
six times since then and I lovea couple of things I really does
(29:01):
.
One is taking Scoutsperspective is super powerful.
You know, taking a Scoutsperspective it seems to be a
theme of today is super powerfuland it feels like an incredibly
effective way to deal with whatwas a very sensitive issue, and
so I love just that combinationof moving things through.
So that's certainly that's inmy pantheon.
Max Chopovsky (29:25):
What a great answer from somebody who has
accomplished so much in thebusiness realm that one of your
favorite books is actually puresort of fiction, with almost the
fable that has an obvious moral.
Samir Wagle (29:41):
Yeah, very much so.
So last question for you.
Max Chopovsky (29:48):
If you could have five minutes with your
20-year-old self, what would yousay to him?
What would you say to him?
Samir Wagle (29:57):
I would say relax, yeah, yeah and I'm sure others
have said that as well it allworks out.
It all works out.
And the idea of if you're justwilling to kind of like enjoy
the ride the next 30, becauseI'm in my 50s the next 30 years
of your life will be a lot offun.
Gotta give up the control first, though.
(30:18):
Absolutely Like.
Just you don't have to be X, yor Z, just enjoy the ride and do
your best.
I mean it very much is.
Occasionally we talk aboutthese things like give up
control, and I've talked topeople who are very much on the
other side, which is, well, I'mnot going to work today and
that's up to someone else.
Like that's not me, that'ssomeone else.
(30:38):
It's like no, the way thisworks is at least for me.
I work as hard as I can and Ireally do work as hard as I can
and then, after I've worked ashard as I can, then I give up
control.
I do my best, and then Irealize that it's out of my
hands.
That's a critical distinction.
Max Chopovsky (30:57):
By the way, I'm glad that we mentioned that.
I'm glad that you said itbecause you're right, there are
people that have this sort offatalistic attitude and they
just let it go but, just likeyou, had to turn things around
by working as hard as you canand then giving up control.
That's a critical step.
So well, you mentioned that.
(31:17):
Yeah Well, this was awesome.
Sameer Wagley, thinker, leader,searcher, thank you for being
on the show.
Samir Wagle (31:29):
Pleasure to be here .
Max.
Thanks for inviting me, Ofcourse.
Max Chopovsky (31:32):
For show notes and more head over to maspodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was Morrill of the Story.
I'm Max Tropowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
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