November 16, 2023 • 41 mins
Mark Achler had just finished writing his first book when the CEO of the publisher suggested he find a sponsor. A novel idea, but if it could offset costs and raise visibility, why not?
Although unorthodox, it worked. But little did Mark know that the publisher's CEO had an unbelievable past and it was all about to catch up to them both.
Mark as Played
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Episode Transcript
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Max Chopovsky (00:02):
This is Moral of the Story interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, max Chepofsky.
Today's guest is Mark Ackler,startup junkie, venture
capitalist, professor, mentor,speaker, author, ardent champion
for the entrepreneurialcommunity.
And I should also add that, ina world of sharks, mark is one
(00:24):
of the kindest and most humblepeople that I've ever met.
He will and does stand up forwhat he believes in, but the man
is a living embodiment of thepossible duality of ambition and
kindness.
Born to a librarian mother andan engineer father, mark has
always shown the kind ofpatience, curiosity and a knack
for problem solving that youwould expect from someone with
(00:44):
such an inquisitive bloodline,and this curiosity and
flexibility would serve him wellin a career that has spanned
industries and involved a nearfearless willingness to reinvent
himself time and again.
Chronically unpretentious, Markwould likely attribute his
tenacity to his father or hisgrandfather, israel Ackler, who
took on the first name of hisbrother, morris, after Morris
(01:06):
was killed fighting for theRussians in World War One
because the real Morris Acklerhad immigration papers and
Israel had to get to America tostart a new life.
Mark was not, in his own words,academically inclined.
It just wasn't his jam again,his words.
But motivated by hishardworking father who was the
first person in his family to goto college, mark stayed with it
(01:27):
and earned a place at PurdueUniversity.
At Purdue, mark, a history buffwho loved working with kids,
pursued social studies education.
The game plan was law school.
However, in the first of themany twists of his life, mark's
father, an early adopter of OGprogramming language, fortran,
suggested they open a computerretail store.
So Mark pivoted.
(01:48):
As the store grew he becamefriends with the reps.
One day one of these repssuggested that Mark applied for
a job at Apple, which he did,becoming employee number 600 in
1982.
Of his many adventures at Apple, a notable one was his attempt
to book Michael Jackson for a1983 promotional event.
After scoffing at the King ofPops $5 million price tag, the
(02:09):
Apple board went with HerbieHancock, a decidedly different
vibe.
But the show was a success andHerbie allegedly still has his
Apple 2 Plus to this day.
After leaving Apple, mark wouldgo on to found and run many
organizations, among themKinesoft, which developed a
technology that allowed Sega andNintendo games to work on
Windows 95 and where, among manybrilliant moves.
(02:31):
His team sent weddinginvitations to CEOs to get them
to attend the E3 gamesconference, garnering an 88%
success rate.
With too many other escapadesand awards to list here, it's
worth noting that Mark loves topass on his wisdom, teaching at
Northwestern University'sKellogg School of Business,
mentoring at tech stars andother organizations, and
publishing a book called ExitRight, which teaches founders
(02:54):
how to sell their startups in away that maximizes their returns
and builds their legacy.
And speaking of legacy, markand wife Marcy continued to give
back to various organizationsand have instilled a sense of
purpose and giving in theirthree girls, emily, sarah and
Haley, who, although now out ofthe house, are making their own
waves in the world, with two ofthe three running their own
(03:14):
companies, and all of themfocused on living a meaningful
life.
Mark, welcome to the show.
Mark Achler (03:20):
Wow, max.
Of all the introductions, thatwas the nicest introduction.
That almost brought a tear tomy eye.
Thank, you.
Max Chopovsky (03:29):
I appreciate it.
You deserved it.
You've done a lot in your life,so you are here to tell us a
story.
Is there anything we shouldknow before we get into it?
Mark Achler (03:40):
No, just listen with an open mind and an open
heart.
Max Chopovsky (03:44):
I love.
It All right, let's get into it.
Tell me a story, all right.
Mark Achler (03:48):
So, as you mentioned, I recently
co-authored a book called ExitRight with my co-author, mayor
Tashari, and my editor.
And my editor turned out to bemy daughter, emily, who is an
incredibly fabulous writer.
And so doing a book I'd neverwritten a book before.
(04:10):
It's a journey, yeah, and ittook two years from start to
finish, and we did a deep diveon this topic and, once again,
with humility.
You know, I thought I knew afair amount about M&A and exits,
but whoa, you know, if youspend two years of your life
(04:32):
dedicated to a topic, you'regonna learn.
I learned so much and it was awonderful, wonderful journey.
As part of that journey, Iloved the relationships that
came out of it.
So, you know, mert and I havebeen friends for a long time.
It was wonderful spending thattime with him.
I hadn't really spent timeprofessionally with my older
(04:53):
daughter, emily, and so, as afather, it was a joy to actually
do something creative.
You know, I'd write somegobbledygook, barely
semi-coherent, and give it toEmily and out would come back
this beautiful prose and I'dlike whoa did I say that that
was amazing.
So as part of this experience,we got a publisher and the
(05:17):
publisher I became friends withthe CEO of the publisher and he
had this idea.
The idea was that books shouldget sponsored, just like music
or sports or other forms ofentertainment have sponsors that
a brand would really appreciatehaving their name affiliated.
(05:39):
That's a really interestingidea.
You know, that's true.
Books don't have sponsors.
And so he said to me look,here's the deal.
Why don't we try?
I've got lots of contacts andrelationships and whoever brings
it in like if you will split at6040, like whoever gets brings
in the account, they get 60% ofwhatever we end up charging.
(06:02):
I said to him you know, look,we're partners and I'd rather do
this 5050.
Like, I don't care if you bringthe person in or if I bring the
person in, we're partners,let's be partners, and that way
it's really simple.
So we shook hands and wepapered a 5050 deal.
Turns out I got an introductionto the vice chairman of UBS, who
(06:26):
is the world's largest wealthmanager and a fabulous company,
and I said to them look, I justwrote a book.
We were just in final drafts,we're in final galleys.
We just wrote a book targetedto entrepreneurs right before
they're about to have a lifealtering exit.
Would you like to sponsor thisand get your name in front of
(06:50):
those entrepreneurs before theyhave an exit.
I had a great visionary partnerthere at UBS and they said yes.
So I went back to the publisherand I said to the publisher hey,
guess what?
We got UBS.
They said they're going to dothe deal and it was a six figure
deal.
And the publisher said great,I'm going to give you 60%.
(07:11):
And I went no, no, no, no, no,our deal is 5050.
He goes look, I know we said5050.
But you brought him in, you didall the work, I didn't do
anything.
I'm going to give you 60% ofthis deal, even though it's in
writing, and I shook your handand he didn't have to do that.
What a standup guy.
(07:32):
And that actually, you knowthat ended up being about
$15,000 to us, which is notchanging the world.
But it was like a standup thingto do and over the course of
time I became close with the CEOof the publisher and one day, a
year goes by, the book ispublished, year goes by and I'm
(07:52):
talking to him and he says youknow, I just got back from
Stanford, I just gave a talk andhe's an inspirational,
motivational speaker.
And he just gave a talk and hewas at MIT a few weeks before
that.
And I go oh really, what didyou talk about?
He goes Well, you know, I talkabout my life story and I talk
about the business I've built,this publisher, we just got this
(08:14):
wonderful award for being oneof the best places to work in
America and I'm really focusedon culture.
And I said, huh, guess what?
I'm a adjunct professor atNorthwestern.
At Kellogg, I teach a classcalled Building Innovation,
teams and Culture.
I'd love for you to be come inand be a guest speaker.
(08:35):
Will you do it?
Because, absolutely so.
We schedule time from thecommon and present to my class
and right before he comes to myclass I notice that they're late
with their royalty check.
I don't say anything because,like he's a great guy, the
company's successful, they'regood for it, like, okay, so he
(08:56):
comes in and he speaks to myclass and he tells his life
story and I'm blown away.
So he tells the story.
He's an African-American guy inhis late 40s.
His father was a pimp, oh my.
(09:16):
God, his mother was a prostitute.
His dad used to take him in thecar on the rounds collecting
money.
The students have never heardanything like this.
He tells the story when he was12, his mom went out for a pack
(09:37):
of cigarettes and it was him andhe had three step siblings.
One was six, four and two, andthe mom never came back and for
a month he was taken care of thesix year old, four year old,
two year old, and he didn't haveany money, so he was stealing
food from grocery stores.
So you're looking at me withyour mouth open right now.
(09:59):
It was just how the students,right, the students.
And then he talks about goingto Juvie and he goes look, juvie
, don't let anybody fool you,that's jail.
He goes.
I was in and out of jail threetimes.
Finally he turns 21.
He got really fortunate.
He was assertive.
(10:21):
He ended up getting a job as asalesperson and he said he goes.
Look, I was incrediblymotivated and I didn't care if
somebody said no, because what'slike I don't care if I got a
thousand no's.
No is nothing to me ever havinglived my life.
(10:42):
Yeah, like I could deal with ano.
Yeah, like I'm just gonna keepgoing until I get a yes and he
gets a job.
He works his way.
Within the first year he's thetop salesperson in the company.
Within five years he's the CEOof that company.
He writes a book and in thepublisher he comes.
(11:03):
Buddies with the publisher,they ask him to become CEO and
now he's CEO of this publishingcompany.
Great guy, the students are onthe edge of their seats.
When he was done, they gave hima standing ovation.
Like MBA students don't giveanybody a standing ovation.
They gave him a standingovation when he was done and he
was mobbed.
(11:24):
It was a wonderful, wonderfultalk and a couple of weeks go by
, all of a sudden the newserupts the company is bankrupt.
The publishing company'sbankrupt.
It's in receivership, the bankowns it.
He laid off, they laid off all,but they had like 140 employees
(11:48):
.
They laid off everybody, butlike a skeleton crew, and then
all the stories started comingout about it was a horrible
place to work.
You know there was all theseissues at work and so I have a
decision to make.
So the next day I'm teaching atKellogg to the same class that
he came and spoke two weeksbefore, and I say like I could
(12:11):
have let it slide because thestudents wouldn't have known.
But I decided, I decided thatthis was a great learning
opportunity for the class, so Isent him the links.
Next day we have the class and,wouldn't you know it, my guest
speaker that day is my co-author, mert, and Mert, he's 35.
(12:32):
Now he's 35.
He's like, if you don't knowhim, he's like full of energy
and life, incredible guy.
And we start talking about thepublisher and Mert is pissed.
He's like that mother, likethose guys owe us money and they
ended up owing us like about$17,000 in unpaid royalties,
(12:54):
back royalties.
And Mert's like we're gonna suehim, we're gonna get a lawyer,
we're gonna sue him.
I want my money.
That guy's lied to us Like he'sreally upset.
Now, remember, I just told theearlier story about how he 60,
40, how he gave us about $15,000.
(13:15):
In my mind I say to Mert youknow, I have a different
approach.
And this is in front of theclass and the class once again.
They're just like their eyesare big, you know, like they're
just like they're watching thisplay out real time.
So let me read you a text that.
So I.
(13:35):
This is what I did with theclass in front of Mert.
So the night it happened, I sentthe CEO of the publisher a text
.
I said hey, just saw theannouncement.
I'm so sorry to hear the news.
You should hold your head uphigh, my friend.
You built a great company.
(13:57):
Just wanted you to know thatI'm thinking of you and always
around to help you, if I can.
That's what I wrote.
He wrote back instantly.
Mark, I sincerely appreciate thekind words and message Given
what you shared with me aboutyour children and your family,
and you know all the you knowyour issues when I was there in
(14:22):
Chicago with you.
I'm comfortable sharing thefollowing this is the absolute
darkest time of my life and youknow some of my life Pains me to
say that, but I'm hurting to mycore.
I'm literally praying for ablessing from God to rectify
this.
We right-sized the company tostop the money burn, but now I
(14:42):
desperately need an investor toquickly buy us Again.
I truly appreciate your messageand kind words and I wrote back
.
I understand I do.
Your family needs you Be strong.
I know it's hard to believe inthe moment, but this too shall
pass.
Here's the thing how you leaveis every bit as important as how
(15:04):
you enter an organization.
Now is not the time to hide andput your head in the sand.
You have plenty of time to heal, to take an honest
retrospective of what you didright and what you did wrong.
You don't have to pretend orhold up an image.
Now is the time for brutalhonesty and transparency.
It's okay.
(15:25):
Over-communicate with all yourstakeholders employees,
investors, authors, suppliers.
Be totally honest andtransparent.
Tell them what is really goingon.
Ask for help.
The biggest mistake that CEOsmake in your position is not
asking for help.
You have built up a lot ofgoodwill over the years.
(15:45):
Now is the time to call on it.
Don't beat yourself up.
You will have plenty of time todo that later.
I believe in you.
Lead with openness andintegrity and hold your head up
high, and I'm also aroundanytime if you wanna talk.
So I read that text to the classand to Merd and we had this
(16:09):
great conversation.
And then one of my studentsasked me a wonderful question.
The question she asked wasProfessor, given everything
you've gone through in your life, are you more cynical or less
(16:32):
cynical than when you were ourage, in our late 20s, early 30s?
I was like whoa, what a greatquestion.
And I immediately knew theanswer to that question, but I
paused and I wanted to thinkabout it and I wanted to give it
its proper due and I said,hands down, I am less cynical
(16:56):
today than when I was your age.
I go look, I am not naive, Ihave plenty of scar tissue.
I have had bad partners, I haveseen terrible behavior, I've
seen people lie and cheat andsteal.
I've seen corporations do badthings.
(17:16):
But here's the thing I tend tohave a view of life that comes
from a place of abundance andnot scarcity, and I choose to
give people the benefit of thedoubt and look, are there bad
(17:40):
people out there?
For sure Are there badcompanies out there, no question
about it.
But in my experience, mostpeople are good or good-ish.
Most companies try to do theright thing not always, but
there's gray but most companiestry to be ethical, and I'd
(18:00):
rather live my life from a placeof hope and optimism, not from
a place of being naive.
I'm kind of like the anti-AndyGrove.
Anti-grove wrote a famous bookOnly the Paranoid Survive, and
he might be right.
I'm not saying that I'm right,there's a right or a wrong but I
(18:21):
think it's a conscious choice,and so that's my story.
Max Chopovsky (18:28):
Wow that I had no idea where that one was going.
That was so good.
What happened to the publisher?
Mark Achler (18:38):
I'm not sure he lost his job.
He got fired or the bank tookit over.
It's in the company's andreceivership now and I just
texted him this morning becauseI knew I was going to tell this
story and I wanted just to reachout and say hi and just check
in on him.
But I'm not sure I haven'tspoken to him in a few months.
Max Chopovsky (18:58):
So did UBS pay the publisher and then the
publisher was going to pay outfrom there.
Mark Achler (19:05):
This is separate things.
So UBS did pay the publisherand the publisher did pay us,
and then a year goes by and wehave book sales and so the way
it works.
In publishing there's multipleplaces that we sell books.
So when we sell a book onAmazon, we get a monthly royalty
check from Amazon directly.
(19:26):
But we also had bulk orders andthose bulk orders came through
the publisher and the way itworked.
In our deal every publisher isdifferent.
In our deal, twice a year, onceevery six months, they would
pay us our royalties.
So they owed us six monthsworth of bulk sales which came
(19:48):
out to for our take on.
It was like $17,000.
And the way I looked at it waswe were way ahead of the game.
Like we were way ahead, like ithad so far exceeded our
expectations that I couldn'thave done without them.
And so from a personal point ofview, I was totally fine.
It was okay.
But more importantly, from ahuman point of view, here was
(20:11):
somebody who was hurting.
Was he an evil person?
Look, he made some mistakes.
He made some classic first timeCEO rookie mistakes.
Cash was getting tight.
He thought he would throw theHail Mary.
He didn't have a board ofdirectors who could, or he
didn't have mentors to guide him.
(20:33):
He didn't ask for help.
He wasn't open and transparent.
Was he a bad person?
I don't know.
I mean, I don't think so.
I actually, you know, one ofthe tests of friendship is will
you stand behind somebody evenwhen they're having a bad moment
?
And so I choose to stand behindthis guy.
Max Chopovsky (20:58):
Yeah, another test of friendship is will you
take somebody to the airport atthree in the morning, right,
because that's indicative of areyou going to do something for
them that is inconvenient foryou, it doesn't suit you, your
needs, your priorities, you knowat this stage in my career,
(21:18):
sort of the framework that Imanage my life is joyful,
innovation, building communitiesand teaching empathy, and so
that's like that's the lens ofhow I look through life in all
the different things I do.
That's right, I think that's youknow.
It's interesting.
I feel like the older we get,the more we sort of step back
(21:44):
and look at our life through amore philosophical lens and you
know kind of what matters.
So we just went to visit myfamily this last weekend.
Mark Achler (21:54):
Yeah, Louisville yeah.
Max Chopovsky (21:55):
Yeah, and my dad turned 70.
And so we were sitting at therestaurant and I felt like I
should say something, and Ithought you know, the gravity of
the moment is such that thesomething I say should be
meaningful, memorable, right?
Because my brother came in fromCalifornia with his girlfriend,
(22:16):
we have my grandmother there,my wife and our kids, so kind of
the whole family together and Ijust sort of was thinking about
it on the way to the restaurantand so, when I felt it was the
right time, I said as we getolder, we start to get a much
clearer picture of what mattersand what doesn't matter.
(22:38):
Yeah, and that can only comewith time, right?
So it's something that you cansort of viscerally grasp when
you're younger.
Right, takes perspective,correct, it takes perspective
and it takes hindsight.
And so what I said was it turnsout that actually what really
matters is how we spend our time, because time is all we have,
(23:03):
that is literally all we have.
Money is just a way to buy usmore time, because it frees us
up from doing things that wedon't want to do, but then we
have to spend time to earn themoney.
So you just have to kind of dothe math on how you should be
spending your time, and it's allabout how to maximize the
(23:23):
amount of time that you havewith people who matter to you.
That's literally it.
I mean, it's actually thatsimple, right.
But when we're younger, wechase things that matter to us
at that time, and then, once weget older, we realize, oh, that
actually wasn't so important.
We spent so much time thinkingabout what others think about us
(23:46):
or a number of other thingsthat fall into this massive
bucket of things we have nocontrol over, and the amount of
stress that we introduce intoour lives because we worry about
these things is substantial.
But at the same time, you can'treally you can't really skip
(24:08):
from being an immature youngperson to having this wisdom.
Like it comes with time.
It's part of the journey.
It's part of the journey, right?
And so what I think isinteresting is how you looked at
what matters.
Most people would have said youknow, this guy knew that his
(24:29):
company was not doing well.
When he came in and gave thistalk to my class, I invited him
into a sacred space, aninstitution that sort of is
predicated on people passingdown honest wisdom, integrity,
(24:49):
integrity.
This guy comes and tells me astory which is a true story.
I'm not questioning his storyat all, but there's also
something in the back of hismind that he could have easily
told me that, hey, if he told me, I would have been like I got
you, okay, fine, Fair enough.
But he chose not to say that,and so you had every right to
(25:10):
react in a very different way.
But what you did was you lookedat his perspective, which is an
underrated and probablyunderrepresented point of view,
and you said, hey, this guy isstruggling right now and, man,
(25:32):
this is probably reminiscent ofall those times when he was a
child where he literally had noidea what to do next and he was
panicking but there was nobodythere to help him.
And, as the CEO, without aboard, there's kind of nobody
there to help you.
And so you looked at it fromthat perspective, and so I think
that sort of underscores thefact that when that student said
(25:53):
, are you more or less cynical?
You had every right, especiallyin light of the most recent
event, to say that, no, I'm morecynical because, given the
circumstances, nine people outof 10 are going to do whatever
benefits them, and so I'm goingto take an appropriate approach
to that Right Sure, you said no.
(26:14):
You know what this guy'shurting and I'm going to kind of
look past how it impacts me andspeak to him human to human,
which says a lot about you.
Mark Achler (26:25):
Yeah, look, life is short, right, and what really
matters are the relationshipsand connections we have with one
another.
Max Chopovsky (26:35):
That's it.
That's it, even when thoserelationships cost us our time,
our effort, because that meansthat we are being selfless in
those relationships.
Mark Achler (26:47):
Yeah, yeah, what I liked about this story and this
is the first time I'm tellingthis story what I like about the
story is you think, oh, this isabout business, innovation and
getting a sponsor, and like, ohno, the story is about the CEO,
this publisher.
What a great guy.
And all of a sudden it's.
(27:08):
You know his life story, whichis really interesting and unique
, and you're like, oh no, wait aminute, the story is about it
was a house of cards and they'relike it wasn't real.
Yeah, then what you really findout about this story is it's
about a worldview and yourvalues.
That's why I thought this wasan interesting story.
Max Chopovsky (27:30):
Totally.
I mean every business story.
Once you strip away the quoteunquote business part of it is
really just a story about humansand their emotions.
Right, Exactly All the dramathat we're seeing and that we've
seen in every sort of globalcatastrophe, whether it's wars
or it's the markets or whatever.
(27:50):
It's just a story of humanemotions, how our emotions get
the better of us.
Yeah, Right, yeah, I mean.
Somebody growing up in thatenvironment is unlike.
The odds are against them tobecome the CEO of anything.
Mark Achler (28:05):
Oh, he had to fight to get a GED late in life.
I mean, not only did he nothave a college degree, his
degree was at Juvi.
The fact that he became asuccessful human being, given
the circumstances of hischildhood, what a huge
accomplishment.
Max Chopovsky (28:23):
Yeah, he outperformed.
The odds were definitelyagainst him.
So if you were to think of amoral of that story, what would
that be?
Mark Achler (28:36):
The question the student asked about are you more
cynical or less cynical?
Actually, it made me bethoughtful and intentional and
to be able to express myworldview in a concrete way that
I hadn't articulated before,and so I think there's a moral
(28:57):
of the story.
It is that I know you are thecenter of your own universe, but
the people that you interactwith, for the most part, are
good people.
Like you know, if somebodycheats, steals, lies, whatever,
you fine, write them off, right.
(29:19):
You don't ever have to deal withthem again.
But for the most of us we'rejust, you know, we're human, the
human condition, and we're allflawed in different ways.
And life is hard.
Life is hard Like you don'tknow.
We really don't know what'sgoing on behind the scenes in
somebody's life, and so like,don't make assumptions and lead
(29:41):
with kindness.
Max Chopovsky (29:42):
Yeah, we have a list of family values hanging up
on our wall and the same listis hanging up in both of the
older girls' rooms and the veryfirst value on that list is
kindness, and empathy is on thatlist, and integrity and
accountability.
And whenever the girls aremisbehaving and they're mad at
(30:04):
me for disciplining them, I sayto them you might not like this
right now, but it is myresponsibility to release into
the world a kind and empathetichuman being.
Amen, brother, Like that'sRight, Because if I've done that
, if your mom and I have donethat, then we have we've done
our work.
(30:25):
I find it so interesting.
You know your comment about youare at the center of your own
universe.
There's something to be saidabout remembering that all you
have to do is zoom out, right?
So the more you zoom out, theless significant you realize you
are and the less significanteveryone around you is.
(30:47):
I mean, literally, you can zoomout far enough and nobody on
this earth matters, right?
So I'm not saying that we needto take a nihilistic approach to
everything, but it is certainlythe antidote to thinking that
you are the most importantperson and that the things that
matter most, the things thatmatter most to you, right?
(31:09):
So humility is another value onour list.
Mark Achler (31:12):
Humility and personal accountability.
Totally, I am a jaggy, so yes,humility is really important and
also personal accountability.
It's not somebody else's fault.
You gotta own what you've done.
Max Chopovsky (31:28):
I don't remember who said this, but it was like
extreme ownership.
He basically wrote a book.
That was like extreme ownership.
You have to look to yourselfbefore you look to anyone else
for any situation that you findyourself in, because ultimately
you can't control what you can'tcontrol.
But if you overlook what youcan control, well, then you're
(31:49):
just doing a disservice toyourself and everybody around
you.
Mark Achler (31:52):
Exactly.
Max Chopovsky (31:53):
Yeah, totally, totally.
So you have had some wildadventures in your day and you
have heard some incrediblestories.
What, in your mind, makes for agood story?
Mark Achler (32:11):
So there's an emotional arc.
You know you wanna drawsomebody in, you wanna get them
interested.
A little curiosity, a littlebit of misdirection.
Oh, I think you're going thisway.
Oh, you're not.
You're really going this way,building to a climax.
(32:33):
But I love empathy and I thinkreally understanding your
audience is a really importantpart of good storytelling.
Totally yep, and a sense ofhumor, a sly sense of humor.
I'll give you an example, areal quick one.
Ubs was.
I was doing a book tour for UBSand they asked me to come speak
(32:55):
in Nashville a couple of monthsago and I went to Nashville and
they had it at a venue.
The event was at an eventsvenue and a bar and the bar had
a policy of everybody had to getcarded.
So I walk in and the guy in theperson in the front says like I
see your ID.
I look at him, you know I'm 65.
(33:17):
I go, I haven't been carded ina while.
I look at him, I get a smile onmy face and I give him my
Medicare card.
Max Chopovsky (33:23):
That's amazing.
Does that card have your dateof birth and everything?
No, but it's my Medicare.
Mark Achler (33:28):
I don't know, but it's my Medicare, because you
have to be 65 to have a Medicare.
So the guy looks at me and goessmart ass.
Max Chopovsky (33:37):
I mean it answers your question, does it not?
That I'm old enough to be inhere, does it not?
Oh, that's funny.
So what do you think when youthink of stories?
Makes for a good storyteller.
Mark Achler (33:50):
Well, somebody who is engaging like somebody.
There's the classic about yourvoice as an instrument and you
don't wanna be monotone, youdon't wanna just say, you know,
just drone on.
Pauses are like if, like whenwe had our conversation there
were some moments where I paused.
It's important to give theaudience a chance to sort of sit
(34:13):
and absorb and to think aboutit.
Pacing and timing matter to agood storyteller.
Yeah, Right, and a littletwinkle in your eye.
You know, like that you'reenjoying it.
When I tell this story, I'menjoying like it's not only I'm
telling it for you as theaudience, I'm also enjoying the
(34:36):
process, Like I know the story,I'm the one telling it, but I'm
also a fan.
I'm enjoying your reactions tothe story, Right, and I have
curiosity.
So I always learn something new.
So when I tell a story, I'malso getting feedback.
(34:57):
There's nonverbal feedback youknow people sleeping, Right,
Right but there's the verbalfeedback and people interact
with the story and so I can seewhat resonates, what doesn't
resonate.
This is the first time for metelling this particular story
and I'm going to learn from thisexperience and adapt to it.
But I'm always learningsomething.
(35:19):
So, like the questions that youask when or when I'm teaching
at Northwestern, at Kellogg, thequestion that that student
asked it's like oh, that's agreat question, Right?
So I think, great storytellers.
It's bi-directional, it's notjust one way.
Max Chopovsky (35:39):
I love that because you're right as the
teller of a story.
You're taking your audiencealong on the ride with you and,
depending on the audience, youmight have to modify the story a
little bit.
Oh for sure, yeah, yeah, no, no, no for sure.
Does every story have to have amoral?
Mark Achler (36:00):
Oh, I don't think so.
In the business context, Iusually tell stories because
it's a teaching moment.
There's a reason I'm telling astory, but not every story has
to have a moral.
Max Chopovsky (36:13):
Interesting.
Okay, yeah.
Now, speaking of good stories,you've written a book, you've
read a ton of books.
So what is a book that you'veread that really nails the art
of storytelling?
Mark Achler (36:32):
Well, all right.
So I'm a geek.
I love fantasy and sciencefiction.
So you know the Lord of theRings or Ender's Game or like.
There's all sorts of wonderfulbooks that I just think, nail it
, that I'm just in awe of.
You know, one of the things youtalk about getting older the
(36:55):
first time I read Lord of theRings I was 10 years old and I
read all three books in threedays.
Wow, it was during the summerand I just sat on a couch and I
went deep.
That is insane, right.
I read all three books in threedays and like 12 hours a day.
(37:20):
All I was like I was there andyou know, as an adult it's very
hard.
It's hard to focus.
You know we're always gettingpinged and the email goes off
and the text goes off.
And when's the last time youreally just lost yourself in
somebody else's world?
Agreed?
Max Chopovsky (37:39):
So I just I love to read.
Yeah, it's a wonderful escape.
So last question for you If youcould have a few minutes with
your 20 year old self, say onething to your 20 year old self.
What would it be?
Mark Achler (37:54):
Actually, I've given this a lot of thought.
Surprisingly, relationshipsmatter over time.
So when you're in your 20s, it'snot that life is transactional,
but you think to yourself, oh,this person's in my life today
you don't really think about,they're going to be in your life
20 years from now.
(38:15):
And one of the things that Ihave very few regrets in life,
I'm blessed.
But one of them is there aresome relationships of people
that I really care about, that Ilet go over the years, that I
didn't nurture, and I think whatpeople really underestimate is
(38:35):
the importance of thoserelationships over time.
Yeah, and I'll flip that into abusiness context, which is when
entrepreneurs come and pitchVCs, it's almost a transactional
In their mind.
Did the VCs say yes or no?
Most of the times it's no.
Yeah, I'm like, okay, fine, onto the next VC, right.
(38:59):
And I'm like, okay, fine, I'mdone.
That rat bastard, he doesn'tget me.
But what they fail to realizeis, look, I say no today for
lots of reasons Maybe you're notfar enough along or you don't
meet our investment thesis, buta no today doesn't mean a no
tomorrow.
And relationships really matter.
(39:20):
And look, we're people too, andso I love helping and mentoring
and making friends.
So my co-author, merit, pitchedme and my partner, troy three
times to invest in his business.
We never did.
He pitched us like 10 years agoand then five years ago and
(39:42):
then three years ago and we justsaid no every time.
And I love Merit and Merit.
We built a relationship.
We built a friendship.
He started coming, we had adinner club.
We went over to each other'shouses for dinner when he was
selling his business.
I was often, and my partnerTroy we were often the phone
(40:04):
calls to talk him off theceiling because when things
weren't going well and he endedup becoming an entrepreneur in
residence at math and weco-authored a book together,
that's amazing.
And Troy said no three times tohim.
Yeah, right, and so look, it'sa long life.
Max Chopovsky (40:25):
Relationships matter and your reputation
really does matter Totally, andI think that's a student advice,
both in the professional realmand in the personal realm,
because when we're younger wekind of feel like, oh, I'll meet
this person, we'll hang out,we'll be friends for a period of
(40:45):
time, then I'll move on, I'llmeet somebody else, right.
And as you get older, yourealize that actually you end up
sort of hopefully reconnectingwith some of your older friends
because nothing can.
You could hit it off withsomebody when you're older and
you meet them through your kidsactivities or school or whatever
, and you could be friendly withthem and spend time with them
and have some great experienceswith them.
(41:07):
But nothing can replicate thehistory that you have with
somebody that you've known forso many years.
Right, and you can do that ifyou invest in those
relationships and stay in touchwith those people.
That's exactly right, you knowWell, this was awesome.
That does it.
Mark Ackler.
(41:28):
Professor, mentor, speaker,author, kind human being.
Thank you for being on the show.
All right, max.
Thanks, as always, man, it's anhonor.
The honor is all mine.
My friend For show notes andmore.
Head over to MossPodorg andthis one Apple Podcasts, spotify
, wherever you get your podcaston.
(41:49):
Thank you for listening.
This was more Love the Story.
I'm Max Dropofsky.
Talk to you next time.
Thanks, max.
This is Moral of the Story interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, max Chepofsky.
Today's guest is Mark Ackler,startup junkie, venture
capitalist, professor, mentor,speaker, author, ardent champion
for the entrepreneurialcommunity.
And I should also add that, ina world of sharks, mark is one
(00:24):
of the kindest and most humblepeople that I've ever met.
He will and does stand up forwhat he believes in, but the man
is a living embodiment of thepossible duality of ambition and
kindness.
Born to a librarian mother andan engineer father, mark has
always shown the kind ofpatience, curiosity and a knack
for problem solving that youwould expect from someone with
(00:44):
such an inquisitive bloodline,and this curiosity and
flexibility would serve him wellin a career that has spanned
industries and involved a nearfearless willingness to reinvent
himself time and again.
Chronically unpretentious, Markwould likely attribute his
tenacity to his father or hisgrandfather, israel Ackler, who
took on the first name of hisbrother, morris, after Morris
(01:06):
was killed fighting for theRussians in World War One
because the real Morris Acklerhad immigration papers and
Israel had to get to America tostart a new life.
Mark was not, in his own words,academically inclined.
It just wasn't his jam again,his words.
But motivated by hishardworking father who was the
first person in his family to goto college, mark stayed with it
(01:27):
and earned a place at PurdueUniversity.
At Purdue, mark, a history buffwho loved working with kids,
pursued social studies education.
The game plan was law school.
However, in the first of themany twists of his life, mark's
father, an early adopter of OGprogramming language, fortran,
suggested they open a computerretail store.
So Mark pivoted.
(01:48):
As the store grew he becamefriends with the reps.
One day one of these repssuggested that Mark applied for
a job at Apple, which he did,becoming employee number 600 in
1982.
Of his many adventures at Apple, a notable one was his attempt
to book Michael Jackson for a1983 promotional event.
After scoffing at the King ofPops $5 million price tag, the
(02:09):
Apple board went with HerbieHancock, a decidedly different
vibe.
But the show was a success andHerbie allegedly still has his
Apple 2 Plus to this day.
After leaving Apple, mark wouldgo on to found and run many
organizations, among themKinesoft, which developed a
technology that allowed Sega andNintendo games to work on
Windows 95 and where, among manybrilliant moves.
(02:31):
His team sent weddinginvitations to CEOs to get them
to attend the E3 gamesconference, garnering an 88%
success rate.
With too many other escapadesand awards to list here, it's
worth noting that Mark loves topass on his wisdom, teaching at
Northwestern University'sKellogg School of Business,
mentoring at tech stars andother organizations, and
publishing a book called ExitRight, which teaches founders
(02:54):
how to sell their startups in away that maximizes their returns
and builds their legacy.
And speaking of legacy, markand wife Marcy continued to give
back to various organizationsand have instilled a sense of
purpose and giving in theirthree girls, emily, sarah and
Haley, who, although now out ofthe house, are making their own
waves in the world, with two ofthe three running their own
(03:14):
companies, and all of themfocused on living a meaningful
life.
Mark, welcome to the show.
Mark Achler (03:20):
Wow, max.
Of all the introductions, thatwas the nicest introduction.
That almost brought a tear tomy eye.
Thank, you.
Max Chopovsky (03:29):
I appreciate it.
You deserved it.
You've done a lot in your life,so you are here to tell us a
story.
Is there anything we shouldknow before we get into it?
Mark Achler (03:40):
No, just listen with an open mind and an open
heart.
Max Chopovsky (03:44):
I love.
It All right, let's get into it.
Tell me a story, all right.
Mark Achler (03:48):
So, as you mentioned, I recently
co-authored a book called ExitRight with my co-author, mayor
Tashari, and my editor.
And my editor turned out to bemy daughter, emily, who is an
incredibly fabulous writer.
And so doing a book I'd neverwritten a book before.
(04:10):
It's a journey, yeah, and ittook two years from start to
finish, and we did a deep diveon this topic and, once again,
with humility.
You know, I thought I knew afair amount about M&A and exits,
but whoa, you know, if youspend two years of your life
(04:32):
dedicated to a topic, you'regonna learn.
I learned so much and it was awonderful, wonderful journey.
As part of that journey, Iloved the relationships that
came out of it.
So, you know, mert and I havebeen friends for a long time.
It was wonderful spending thattime with him.
I hadn't really spent timeprofessionally with my older
(04:53):
daughter, emily, and so, as afather, it was a joy to actually
do something creative.
You know, I'd write somegobbledygook, barely
semi-coherent, and give it toEmily and out would come back
this beautiful prose and I'dlike whoa did I say that that
was amazing.
So as part of this experience,we got a publisher and the
(05:17):
publisher I became friends withthe CEO of the publisher and he
had this idea.
The idea was that books shouldget sponsored, just like music
or sports or other forms ofentertainment have sponsors that
a brand would really appreciatehaving their name affiliated.
(05:39):
That's a really interestingidea.
You know, that's true.
Books don't have sponsors.
And so he said to me look,here's the deal.
Why don't we try?
I've got lots of contacts andrelationships and whoever brings
it in like if you will split at6040, like whoever gets brings
in the account, they get 60% ofwhatever we end up charging.
(06:02):
I said to him you know, look,we're partners and I'd rather do
this 5050.
Like, I don't care if you bringthe person in or if I bring the
person in, we're partners,let's be partners, and that way
it's really simple.
So we shook hands and wepapered a 5050 deal.
Turns out I got an introductionto the vice chairman of UBS, who
(06:26):
is the world's largest wealthmanager and a fabulous company,
and I said to them look, I justwrote a book.
We were just in final drafts,we're in final galleys.
We just wrote a book targetedto entrepreneurs right before
they're about to have a lifealtering exit.
Would you like to sponsor thisand get your name in front of
(06:50):
those entrepreneurs before theyhave an exit.
I had a great visionary partnerthere at UBS and they said yes.
So I went back to the publisherand I said to the publisher hey,
guess what?
We got UBS.
They said they're going to dothe deal and it was a six figure
deal.
And the publisher said great,I'm going to give you 60%.
(07:11):
And I went no, no, no, no, no,our deal is 5050.
He goes look, I know we said5050.
But you brought him in, you didall the work, I didn't do
anything.
I'm going to give you 60% ofthis deal, even though it's in
writing, and I shook your handand he didn't have to do that.
What a standup guy.
(07:32):
And that actually, you knowthat ended up being about
$15,000 to us, which is notchanging the world.
But it was like a standup thingto do and over the course of
time I became close with the CEOof the publisher and one day, a
year goes by, the book ispublished, year goes by and I'm
(07:52):
talking to him and he says youknow, I just got back from
Stanford, I just gave a talk andhe's an inspirational,
motivational speaker.
And he just gave a talk and hewas at MIT a few weeks before
that.
And I go oh really, what didyou talk about?
He goes Well, you know, I talkabout my life story and I talk
about the business I've built,this publisher, we just got this
(08:14):
wonderful award for being oneof the best places to work in
America and I'm really focusedon culture.
And I said, huh, guess what?
I'm a adjunct professor atNorthwestern.
At Kellogg, I teach a classcalled Building Innovation,
teams and Culture.
I'd love for you to be come inand be a guest speaker.
(08:35):
Will you do it?
Because, absolutely so.
We schedule time from thecommon and present to my class
and right before he comes to myclass I notice that they're late
with their royalty check.
I don't say anything because,like he's a great guy, the
company's successful, they'regood for it, like, okay, so he
(08:56):
comes in and he speaks to myclass and he tells his life
story and I'm blown away.
So he tells the story.
He's an African-American guy inhis late 40s.
His father was a pimp, oh my.
(09:16):
God, his mother was a prostitute.
His dad used to take him in thecar on the rounds collecting
money.
The students have never heardanything like this.
He tells the story when he was12, his mom went out for a pack
(09:37):
of cigarettes and it was him andhe had three step siblings.
One was six, four and two, andthe mom never came back and for
a month he was taken care of thesix year old, four year old,
two year old, and he didn't haveany money, so he was stealing
food from grocery stores.
So you're looking at me withyour mouth open right now.
(09:59):
It was just how the students,right, the students.
And then he talks about goingto Juvie and he goes look, juvie
, don't let anybody fool you,that's jail.
He goes.
I was in and out of jail threetimes.
Finally he turns 21.
He got really fortunate.
He was assertive.
(10:21):
He ended up getting a job as asalesperson and he said he goes.
Look, I was incrediblymotivated and I didn't care if
somebody said no, because what'slike I don't care if I got a
thousand no's.
No is nothing to me ever havinglived my life.
(10:42):
Yeah, like I could deal with ano.
Yeah, like I'm just gonna keepgoing until I get a yes and he
gets a job.
He works his way.
Within the first year he's thetop salesperson in the company.
Within five years he's the CEOof that company.
He writes a book and in thepublisher he comes.
(11:03):
Buddies with the publisher,they ask him to become CEO and
now he's CEO of this publishingcompany.
Great guy, the students are onthe edge of their seats.
When he was done, they gave hima standing ovation.
Like MBA students don't giveanybody a standing ovation.
They gave him a standingovation when he was done and he
was mobbed.
(11:24):
It was a wonderful, wonderfultalk and a couple of weeks go by
, all of a sudden the newserupts the company is bankrupt.
The publishing company'sbankrupt.
It's in receivership, the bankowns it.
He laid off, they laid off all,but they had like 140 employees
(11:48):
.
They laid off everybody, butlike a skeleton crew, and then
all the stories started comingout about it was a horrible
place to work.
You know there was all theseissues at work and so I have a
decision to make.
So the next day I'm teaching atKellogg to the same class that
he came and spoke two weeksbefore, and I say like I could
(12:11):
have let it slide because thestudents wouldn't have known.
But I decided, I decided thatthis was a great learning
opportunity for the class, so Isent him the links.
Next day we have the class and,wouldn't you know it, my guest
speaker that day is my co-author, mert, and Mert, he's 35.
(12:32):
Now he's 35.
He's like, if you don't knowhim, he's like full of energy
and life, incredible guy.
And we start talking about thepublisher and Mert is pissed.
He's like that mother, likethose guys owe us money and they
ended up owing us like about$17,000 in unpaid royalties,
(12:54):
back royalties.
And Mert's like we're gonna suehim, we're gonna get a lawyer,
we're gonna sue him.
I want my money.
That guy's lied to us Like he'sreally upset.
Now, remember, I just told theearlier story about how he 60,
40, how he gave us about $15,000.
(13:15):
In my mind I say to Mert youknow, I have a different
approach.
And this is in front of theclass and the class once again.
They're just like their eyesare big, you know, like they're
just like they're watching thisplay out real time.
So let me read you a text that.
So I.
(13:35):
This is what I did with theclass in front of Mert.
So the night it happened, I sentthe CEO of the publisher a text
.
I said hey, just saw theannouncement.
I'm so sorry to hear the news.
You should hold your head uphigh, my friend.
You built a great company.
(13:57):
Just wanted you to know thatI'm thinking of you and always
around to help you, if I can.
That's what I wrote.
He wrote back instantly.
Mark, I sincerely appreciate thekind words and message Given
what you shared with me aboutyour children and your family,
and you know all the you knowyour issues when I was there in
(14:22):
Chicago with you.
I'm comfortable sharing thefollowing this is the absolute
darkest time of my life and youknow some of my life Pains me to
say that, but I'm hurting to mycore.
I'm literally praying for ablessing from God to rectify
this.
We right-sized the company tostop the money burn, but now I
(14:42):
desperately need an investor toquickly buy us Again.
I truly appreciate your messageand kind words and I wrote back
.
I understand I do.
Your family needs you Be strong.
I know it's hard to believe inthe moment, but this too shall
pass.
Here's the thing how you leaveis every bit as important as how
(15:04):
you enter an organization.
Now is not the time to hide andput your head in the sand.
You have plenty of time to heal, to take an honest
retrospective of what you didright and what you did wrong.
You don't have to pretend orhold up an image.
Now is the time for brutalhonesty and transparency.
It's okay.
(15:25):
Over-communicate with all yourstakeholders employees,
investors, authors, suppliers.
Be totally honest andtransparent.
Tell them what is really goingon.
Ask for help.
The biggest mistake that CEOsmake in your position is not
asking for help.
You have built up a lot ofgoodwill over the years.
(15:45):
Now is the time to call on it.
Don't beat yourself up.
You will have plenty of time todo that later.
I believe in you.
Lead with openness andintegrity and hold your head up
high, and I'm also aroundanytime if you wanna talk.
So I read that text to the classand to Merd and we had this
(16:09):
great conversation.
And then one of my studentsasked me a wonderful question.
The question she asked wasProfessor, given everything
you've gone through in your life, are you more cynical or less
(16:32):
cynical than when you were ourage, in our late 20s, early 30s?
I was like whoa, what a greatquestion.
And I immediately knew theanswer to that question, but I
paused and I wanted to thinkabout it and I wanted to give it
its proper due and I said,hands down, I am less cynical
(16:56):
today than when I was your age.
I go look, I am not naive, Ihave plenty of scar tissue.
I have had bad partners, I haveseen terrible behavior, I've
seen people lie and cheat andsteal.
I've seen corporations do badthings.
(17:16):
But here's the thing I tend tohave a view of life that comes
from a place of abundance andnot scarcity, and I choose to
give people the benefit of thedoubt and look, are there bad
(17:40):
people out there?
For sure Are there badcompanies out there, no question
about it.
But in my experience, mostpeople are good or good-ish.
Most companies try to do theright thing not always, but
there's gray but most companiestry to be ethical, and I'd
(18:00):
rather live my life from a placeof hope and optimism, not from
a place of being naive.
I'm kind of like the anti-AndyGrove.
Anti-grove wrote a famous bookOnly the Paranoid Survive, and
he might be right.
I'm not saying that I'm right,there's a right or a wrong but I
(18:21):
think it's a conscious choice,and so that's my story.
Max Chopovsky (18:28):
Wow that I had no idea where that one was going.
That was so good.
What happened to the publisher?
Mark Achler (18:38):
I'm not sure he lost his job.
He got fired or the bank tookit over.
It's in the company's andreceivership now and I just
texted him this morning becauseI knew I was going to tell this
story and I wanted just to reachout and say hi and just check
in on him.
But I'm not sure I haven'tspoken to him in a few months.
Max Chopovsky (18:58):
So did UBS pay the publisher and then the
publisher was going to pay outfrom there.
Mark Achler (19:05):
This is separate things.
So UBS did pay the publisherand the publisher did pay us,
and then a year goes by and wehave book sales and so the way
it works.
In publishing there's multipleplaces that we sell books.
So when we sell a book onAmazon, we get a monthly royalty
check from Amazon directly.
(19:26):
But we also had bulk orders andthose bulk orders came through
the publisher and the way itworked.
In our deal every publisher isdifferent.
In our deal, twice a year, onceevery six months, they would
pay us our royalties.
So they owed us six monthsworth of bulk sales which came
(19:48):
out to for our take on.
It was like $17,000.
And the way I looked at it waswe were way ahead of the game.
Like we were way ahead, like ithad so far exceeded our
expectations that I couldn'thave done without them.
And so from a personal point ofview, I was totally fine.
It was okay.
But more importantly, from ahuman point of view, here was
(20:11):
somebody who was hurting.
Was he an evil person?
Look, he made some mistakes.
He made some classic first timeCEO rookie mistakes.
Cash was getting tight.
He thought he would throw theHail Mary.
He didn't have a board ofdirectors who could, or he
didn't have mentors to guide him.
(20:33):
He didn't ask for help.
He wasn't open and transparent.
Was he a bad person?
I don't know.
I mean, I don't think so.
I actually, you know, one ofthe tests of friendship is will
you stand behind somebody evenwhen they're having a bad moment
?
And so I choose to stand behindthis guy.
Max Chopovsky (20:58):
Yeah, another test of friendship is will you
take somebody to the airport atthree in the morning, right,
because that's indicative of areyou going to do something for
them that is inconvenient foryou, it doesn't suit you, your
needs, your priorities, you knowat this stage in my career,
(21:18):
sort of the framework that Imanage my life is joyful,
innovation, building communitiesand teaching empathy, and so
that's like that's the lens ofhow I look through life in all
the different things I do.
That's right, I think that's youknow.
It's interesting.
I feel like the older we get,the more we sort of step back
(21:44):
and look at our life through amore philosophical lens and you
know kind of what matters.
So we just went to visit myfamily this last weekend.
Mark Achler (21:54):
Yeah, Louisville yeah.
Max Chopovsky (21:55):
Yeah, and my dad turned 70.
And so we were sitting at therestaurant and I felt like I
should say something, and Ithought you know, the gravity of
the moment is such that thesomething I say should be
meaningful, memorable, right?
Because my brother came in fromCalifornia with his girlfriend,
(22:16):
we have my grandmother there,my wife and our kids, so kind of
the whole family together and Ijust sort of was thinking about
it on the way to the restaurantand so, when I felt it was the
right time, I said as we getolder, we start to get a much
clearer picture of what mattersand what doesn't matter.
(22:38):
Yeah, and that can only comewith time, right?
So it's something that you cansort of viscerally grasp when
you're younger.
Right, takes perspective,correct, it takes perspective
and it takes hindsight.
And so what I said was it turnsout that actually what really
matters is how we spend our time, because time is all we have,
(23:03):
that is literally all we have.
Money is just a way to buy usmore time, because it frees us
up from doing things that wedon't want to do, but then we
have to spend time to earn themoney.
So you just have to kind of dothe math on how you should be
spending your time, and it's allabout how to maximize the
(23:23):
amount of time that you havewith people who matter to you.
That's literally it.
I mean, it's actually thatsimple, right.
But when we're younger, wechase things that matter to us
at that time, and then, once weget older, we realize, oh, that
actually wasn't so important.
We spent so much time thinkingabout what others think about us
(23:46):
or a number of other thingsthat fall into this massive
bucket of things we have nocontrol over, and the amount of
stress that we introduce intoour lives because we worry about
these things is substantial.
But at the same time, you can'treally you can't really skip
(24:08):
from being an immature youngperson to having this wisdom.
Like it comes with time.
It's part of the journey.
It's part of the journey, right?
And so what I think isinteresting is how you looked at
what matters.
Most people would have said youknow, this guy knew that his
(24:29):
company was not doing well.
When he came in and gave thistalk to my class, I invited him
into a sacred space, aninstitution that sort of is
predicated on people passingdown honest wisdom, integrity,
(24:49):
integrity.
This guy comes and tells me astory which is a true story.
I'm not questioning his storyat all, but there's also
something in the back of hismind that he could have easily
told me that, hey, if he told me, I would have been like I got
you, okay, fine, Fair enough.
But he chose not to say that,and so you had every right to
(25:10):
react in a very different way.
But what you did was you lookedat his perspective, which is an
underrated and probablyunderrepresented point of view,
and you said, hey, this guy isstruggling right now and, man,
(25:32):
this is probably reminiscent ofall those times when he was a
child where he literally had noidea what to do next and he was
panicking but there was nobodythere to help him.
And, as the CEO, without aboard, there's kind of nobody
there to help you.
And so you looked at it fromthat perspective, and so I think
that sort of underscores thefact that when that student said
(25:53):
, are you more or less cynical?
You had every right, especiallyin light of the most recent
event, to say that, no, I'm morecynical because, given the
circumstances, nine people outof 10 are going to do whatever
benefits them, and so I'm goingto take an appropriate approach
to that Right Sure, you said no.
(26:14):
You know what this guy'shurting and I'm going to kind of
look past how it impacts me andspeak to him human to human,
which says a lot about you.
Mark Achler (26:25):
Yeah, look, life is short, right, and what really
matters are the relationshipsand connections we have with one
another.
Max Chopovsky (26:35):
That's it.
That's it, even when thoserelationships cost us our time,
our effort, because that meansthat we are being selfless in
those relationships.
Mark Achler (26:47):
Yeah, yeah, what I liked about this story and this
is the first time I'm tellingthis story what I like about the
story is you think, oh, this isabout business, innovation and
getting a sponsor, and like, ohno, the story is about the CEO,
this publisher.
What a great guy.
And all of a sudden it's.
(27:08):
You know his life story, whichis really interesting and unique
, and you're like, oh no, wait aminute, the story is about it
was a house of cards and they'relike it wasn't real.
Yeah, then what you really findout about this story is it's
about a worldview and yourvalues.
That's why I thought this wasan interesting story.
Max Chopovsky (27:30):
Totally.
I mean every business story.
Once you strip away the quoteunquote business part of it is
really just a story about humansand their emotions.
Right, Exactly All the dramathat we're seeing and that we've
seen in every sort of globalcatastrophe, whether it's wars
or it's the markets or whatever.
(27:50):
It's just a story of humanemotions, how our emotions get
the better of us.
Yeah, Right, yeah, I mean.
Somebody growing up in thatenvironment is unlike.
The odds are against them tobecome the CEO of anything.
Mark Achler (28:05):
Oh, he had to fight to get a GED late in life.
I mean, not only did he nothave a college degree, his
degree was at Juvi.
The fact that he became asuccessful human being, given
the circumstances of hischildhood, what a huge
accomplishment.
Max Chopovsky (28:23):
Yeah, he outperformed.
The odds were definitelyagainst him.
So if you were to think of amoral of that story, what would
that be?
Mark Achler (28:36):
The question the student asked about are you more
cynical or less cynical?
Actually, it made me bethoughtful and intentional and
to be able to express myworldview in a concrete way that
I hadn't articulated before,and so I think there's a moral
(28:57):
of the story.
It is that I know you are thecenter of your own universe, but
the people that you interactwith, for the most part, are
good people.
Like you know, if somebodycheats, steals, lies, whatever,
you fine, write them off, right.
(29:19):
You don't ever have to deal withthem again.
But for the most of us we'rejust, you know, we're human, the
human condition, and we're allflawed in different ways.
And life is hard.
Life is hard Like you don'tknow.
We really don't know what'sgoing on behind the scenes in
somebody's life, and so like,don't make assumptions and lead
(29:41):
with kindness.
Max Chopovsky (29:42):
Yeah, we have a list of family values hanging up
on our wall and the same listis hanging up in both of the
older girls' rooms and the veryfirst value on that list is
kindness, and empathy is on thatlist, and integrity and
accountability.
And whenever the girls aremisbehaving and they're mad at
(30:04):
me for disciplining them, I sayto them you might not like this
right now, but it is myresponsibility to release into
the world a kind and empathetichuman being.
Amen, brother, Like that'sRight, Because if I've done that
, if your mom and I have donethat, then we have we've done
our work.
(30:25):
I find it so interesting.
You know your comment about youare at the center of your own
universe.
There's something to be saidabout remembering that all you
have to do is zoom out, right?
So the more you zoom out, theless significant you realize you
are and the less significanteveryone around you is.
(30:47):
I mean, literally, you can zoomout far enough and nobody on
this earth matters, right?
So I'm not saying that we needto take a nihilistic approach to
everything, but it is certainlythe antidote to thinking that
you are the most importantperson and that the things that
matter most, the things thatmatter most to you, right?
(31:09):
So humility is another value onour list.
Mark Achler (31:12):
Humility and personal accountability.
Totally, I am a jaggy, so yes,humility is really important and
also personal accountability.
It's not somebody else's fault.
You gotta own what you've done.
Max Chopovsky (31:28):
I don't remember who said this, but it was like
extreme ownership.
He basically wrote a book.
That was like extreme ownership.
You have to look to yourselfbefore you look to anyone else
for any situation that you findyourself in, because ultimately
you can't control what you can'tcontrol.
But if you overlook what youcan control, well, then you're
(31:49):
just doing a disservice toyourself and everybody around
you.
Mark Achler (31:52):
Exactly.
Max Chopovsky (31:53):
Yeah, totally, totally.
So you have had some wildadventures in your day and you
have heard some incrediblestories.
What, in your mind, makes for agood story?
Mark Achler (32:11):
So there's an emotional arc.
You know you wanna drawsomebody in, you wanna get them
interested.
A little curiosity, a littlebit of misdirection.
Oh, I think you're going thisway.
Oh, you're not.
You're really going this way,building to a climax.
(32:33):
But I love empathy and I thinkreally understanding your
audience is a really importantpart of good storytelling.
Totally yep, and a sense ofhumor, a sly sense of humor.
I'll give you an example, areal quick one.
Ubs was.
I was doing a book tour for UBSand they asked me to come speak
(32:55):
in Nashville a couple of monthsago and I went to Nashville and
they had it at a venue.
The event was at an eventsvenue and a bar and the bar had
a policy of everybody had to getcarded.
So I walk in and the guy in theperson in the front says like I
see your ID.
I look at him, you know I'm 65.
(33:17):
I go, I haven't been carded ina while.
I look at him, I get a smile onmy face and I give him my
Medicare card.
Max Chopovsky (33:23):
That's amazing.
Does that card have your dateof birth and everything?
No, but it's my Medicare.
Mark Achler (33:28):
I don't know, but it's my Medicare, because you
have to be 65 to have a Medicare.
So the guy looks at me and goessmart ass.
Max Chopovsky (33:37):
I mean it answers your question, does it not?
That I'm old enough to be inhere, does it not?
Oh, that's funny.
So what do you think when youthink of stories?
Makes for a good storyteller.
Mark Achler (33:50):
Well, somebody who is engaging like somebody.
There's the classic about yourvoice as an instrument and you
don't wanna be monotone, youdon't wanna just say, you know,
just drone on.
Pauses are like if, like whenwe had our conversation there
were some moments where I paused.
It's important to give theaudience a chance to sort of sit
(34:13):
and absorb and to think aboutit.
Pacing and timing matter to agood storyteller.
Yeah, Right, and a littletwinkle in your eye.
You know, like that you'reenjoying it.
When I tell this story, I'menjoying like it's not only I'm
telling it for you as theaudience, I'm also enjoying the
(34:36):
process, Like I know the story,I'm the one telling it, but I'm
also a fan.
I'm enjoying your reactions tothe story, Right, and I have
curiosity.
So I always learn something new.
So when I tell a story, I'malso getting feedback.
(34:57):
There's nonverbal feedback youknow people sleeping, Right,
Right but there's the verbalfeedback and people interact
with the story and so I can seewhat resonates, what doesn't
resonate.
This is the first time for metelling this particular story
and I'm going to learn from thisexperience and adapt to it.
But I'm always learningsomething.
(35:19):
So, like the questions that youask when or when I'm teaching
at Northwestern, at Kellogg, thequestion that that student
asked it's like oh, that's agreat question, Right?
So I think, great storytellers.
It's bi-directional, it's notjust one way.
Max Chopovsky (35:39):
I love that because you're right as the
teller of a story.
You're taking your audiencealong on the ride with you and,
depending on the audience, youmight have to modify the story a
little bit.
Oh for sure, yeah, yeah, no, no, no for sure.
Does every story have to have amoral?
Mark Achler (36:00):
Oh, I don't think so.
In the business context, Iusually tell stories because
it's a teaching moment.
There's a reason I'm telling astory, but not every story has
to have a moral.
Max Chopovsky (36:13):
Interesting.
Okay, yeah.
Now, speaking of good stories,you've written a book, you've
read a ton of books.
So what is a book that you'veread that really nails the art
of storytelling?
Mark Achler (36:32):
Well, all right.
So I'm a geek.
I love fantasy and sciencefiction.
So you know the Lord of theRings or Ender's Game or like.
There's all sorts of wonderfulbooks that I just think, nail it
, that I'm just in awe of.
You know, one of the things youtalk about getting older the
(36:55):
first time I read Lord of theRings I was 10 years old and I
read all three books in threedays.
Wow, it was during the summerand I just sat on a couch and I
went deep.
That is insane, right.
I read all three books in threedays and like 12 hours a day.
(37:20):
All I was like I was there andyou know, as an adult it's very
hard.
It's hard to focus.
You know we're always gettingpinged and the email goes off
and the text goes off.
And when's the last time youreally just lost yourself in
somebody else's world?
Agreed?
Max Chopovsky (37:39):
So I just I love to read.
Yeah, it's a wonderful escape.
So last question for you If youcould have a few minutes with
your 20 year old self, say onething to your 20 year old self.
What would it be?
Mark Achler (37:54):
Actually, I've given this a lot of thought.
Surprisingly, relationshipsmatter over time.
So when you're in your 20s, it'snot that life is transactional,
but you think to yourself, oh,this person's in my life today
you don't really think about,they're going to be in your life
20 years from now.
(38:15):
And one of the things that Ihave very few regrets in life,
I'm blessed.
But one of them is there aresome relationships of people
that I really care about, that Ilet go over the years, that I
didn't nurture, and I think whatpeople really underestimate is
(38:35):
the importance of thoserelationships over time.
Yeah, and I'll flip that into abusiness context, which is when
entrepreneurs come and pitchVCs, it's almost a transactional
In their mind.
Did the VCs say yes or no?
Most of the times it's no.
Yeah, I'm like, okay, fine, onto the next VC, right.
(38:59):
And I'm like, okay, fine, I'mdone.
That rat bastard, he doesn'tget me.
But what they fail to realizeis, look, I say no today for
lots of reasons Maybe you're notfar enough along or you don't
meet our investment thesis, buta no today doesn't mean a no
tomorrow.
And relationships really matter.
(39:20):
And look, we're people too, andso I love helping and mentoring
and making friends.
So my co-author, merit, pitchedme and my partner, troy three
times to invest in his business.
We never did.
He pitched us like 10 years agoand then five years ago and
(39:42):
then three years ago and we justsaid no every time.
And I love Merit and Merit.
We built a relationship.
We built a friendship.
He started coming, we had adinner club.
We went over to each other'shouses for dinner when he was
selling his business.
I was often, and my partnerTroy we were often the phone
(40:04):
calls to talk him off theceiling because when things
weren't going well and he endedup becoming an entrepreneur in
residence at math and weco-authored a book together,
that's amazing.
And Troy said no three times tohim.
Yeah, right, and so look, it'sa long life.
Max Chopovsky (40:25):
Relationships matter and your reputation
really does matter Totally, andI think that's a student advice,
both in the professional realmand in the personal realm,
because when we're younger wekind of feel like, oh, I'll meet
this person, we'll hang out,we'll be friends for a period of
(40:45):
time, then I'll move on, I'llmeet somebody else, right.
And as you get older, yourealize that actually you end up
sort of hopefully reconnectingwith some of your older friends
because nothing can.
You could hit it off withsomebody when you're older and
you meet them through your kidsactivities or school or whatever
, and you could be friendly withthem and spend time with them
and have some great experienceswith them.
(41:07):
But nothing can replicate thehistory that you have with
somebody that you've known forso many years.
Right, and you can do that ifyou invest in those
relationships and stay in touchwith those people.
That's exactly right, you knowWell, this was awesome.
That does it.
Mark Ackler.
(41:28):
Professor, mentor, speaker,author, kind human being.
Thank you for being on the show.
All right, max.
Thanks, as always, man, it's anhonor.
The honor is all mine.
My friend For show notes andmore.
Head over to MossPodorg andthis one Apple Podcasts, spotify
, wherever you get your podcaston.
(41:49):
Thank you for listening.
This was more Love the Story.
I'm Max Dropofsky.
Talk to you next time.
Thanks, max.
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