Going meta: Professional storyteller Terence Mickey on the shocking tale that connected all the dots
February 27, 2024 • 50 mins
While at the Moth, Terence Mickey split his time between teaching storytelling to Fortune 500 executives through the corporate program and helping at risk-youth and recovering addicts through the outreach program.
At first glance, the two programs were worlds apart. But one day, they would collide in spectacular fashion through a Vietnam vet's shockingly graphic recollection of a jungle encounter with the Viet kong.
Terence had no idea just how much this collision would light up both programs, but, as he came to learn, the stories most difficult to tell are often the ones that truly connect us, and in doing so, reveal our collective humanity.
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Episode Transcript
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Max Chopovsky (00:02):
This is Moral of the Story interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, Max Jepowsky.
Today's guest is Terence Mickey, whose incredibly diverse life
pursuits have one thing incommon storytelling.
Now, this is something I canget behind, but let's just call
(00:22):
a spade a spade.
The word storytelling hasgotten so cliche as to be more
satire than flattery.
Everyone calls themselves astoryteller.
These days, we can't justfrivolously bestow the title,
can we?
Well, let's see Education.
Terence graduated from StMichael's College with a
bachelor's degree in English,declaring war on the Oxford
(00:44):
comma and forever purgingdangling modifiers and double
negatives from his lexicon,while casually establishing a
campus literary journal Highereducation.
With a solid foundation inplace, Terence went on to get
his MFA and creative writingfrom UC Irvine before heading to
storytelling behemoth, the Moth, where he spent six years as a
lead presenter, trainer anddeveloper of corporate programs,
(01:06):
aka professor of storytellingGarbage, let's not fool
ourselves.
Terence has more than once beenwilling to get his hands dirty.
The summer after graduatingcollege, his uncle invited him
into the family business, whichhappened to be sanitation.
Yes, he joined the Garbagedynasty as head of PR.
(01:28):
So still storytelling.
Terence has written, directedand executive produced content
for Starz, Blinkist, the WeatherChannel, Discovery and other
household names.
Among his many notablecreations is the critically
acclaimed podcast Memory Motel,which focuses on the stories we
choose to remember or forget,and he also found the time to
(01:49):
direct the award-winningdocumentary One Billion Orgasms.
Again, like the flags held highby the leaders of elderly tour
groups on tourist excursions,this storytelling theme is front
and center, clear as day.
These days, from a home base inBerlin, Terence finds himself
traveling the globe, teachingstorytelling at seminars and
writing retreats for his company, Wayfinder Sessions, which has
(02:11):
the kind of tagline that elicitsthe closing of the eyes and a
deep breath we meet you whereyou are and guide you to where
you belong.
So, yes, I think it's fair tocall this man not just a
storyteller, but a storylistener, a story collector and
a story teacher.
Terence, welcome to the show.
Terence Mickey (02:31):
Thank you, Max.
That was an incredibly generousand warm-hearted intro.
Intros are an art form and youhave mastered them.
Max Chopovsky (02:41):
Well, I just am very fortunate to have
incredible storytellers sharetheir time and stories with me,
and so this is the least that Ican do.
I appreciate it.
So you are here to tell us astory.
Is there anything that weshould know before we start?
Do you want to set the stage atall?
Terence Mickey (03:02):
No, they should know nothing.
They should be pleasantlysurprised.
Max Chopovsky (03:05):
I love it.
They cold open.
Let's do this thing.
Tell me a story.
Terence Mickey (03:10):
Okay.
So when I worked at the Moth Isupported two programs the
corporate program, whichinvolved teaching executives at
a portion of Havendra companies,and the outreach program, which
included teaching everyone fromat-risk youth to addicts and
recovery to people with mentalhealth disabilities, and these
(03:33):
two worlds can be further fromeach other.
Until one day they weren't.
A typical week would look likeMonday through Wednesday.
I could be in some far-flungcity teaching workshops to a
corporation, and it always had avery particular purpose, like
selling a product or working onsome internal problem, and was
(03:56):
very intellectual, and I lovedit, because I'm a story nerd and
organizing information wassomething I'd love to do.
I always am an element ofproblem solving, but it was very
much storytelling for aparticular purpose and very much
in the head.
And then every Thursday at thispoint I would be going up to
the Bronx, schlepping the trainup there and going to Star Hill
(04:20):
Addiction Treatment Center.
It was the largest addictiontreatment center in New York and
it was like a big castle onthis hill and the director, dan,
had started a program therethat I had taught once before
and his vision for the programwas to teach people who were
overcoming addictionstorytelling ostensibly to just
(04:42):
kind of feel like they haveanother skill set.
But there was also a kind ofhidden agenda in that he found
that people who were in thisclass tended to complete the
program at a higher rate thanother people who weren't
attending any similar class.
So it was a good retention rate, like 90% of the people.
And it was very fraught becauseyou had to be careful that you
(05:06):
weren't re-traumatizing somebody.
So you kind of danced carefullyaround what people could share
or what people couldn't share.
So both kind of it was a verybifurcated week for me because
there was very much like thestrategic, intellectual aspect
of storytelling and then thisdeeper level.
But it was also limited becauseI couldn't go anywhere.
(05:30):
And there was one student inthis class at the Star Hill,
alfred.
He was a very tall, lanky manand one pocket he had changed,
the other pocket had his keysand he was with his hands in his
pockets.
He's just jingle janglethroughout the whole class.
He had a lot of energy and hehad a lot of nerves and the
story that Alfred was convincedthat he wanted to tell was the
(05:52):
time that his ex-wife found outthat he cheated on him and hit
him over the head with a metalpipe Every class, I would
convince Alfred that this is notthe story you want to tell.
And basically you didn't changeAlfred.
There's no arc for you, therewas no significant
transformation.
I don't think it's the storyyou wouldn't tell.
(06:15):
And at this point storytellinghad become too much of an
intellectual exercise for me.
It was very much about what'syour first line, how do you get
there, and often people are soanxious they just want to know
how to do it.
So it wasn't that transcendentexperience that I went to
storytelling in the beginning,like for me.
I was 16 years old.
(06:36):
I read a check-off story inEnglish class and I felt such a
profound sense of emotion that Iwanted to understand how it
worked.
So storytelling for me wasalways the intersection between
the heart and the mind and Ifelt like I was spending too
much time in my mind at thispoint.
(06:57):
So Alfred, every week, wouldcome to class with the same
insistence that this was thestory he's going to tell, and
he'd even shared details aboutwhere he was, what the pipe felt
like, and he really wanted tosell this story and I kept
saying no.
I kept saying no and we weregetting really close to the show
.
It was like a week before theshow was going to happen, where
(07:19):
they present to the whole center, where people from the outside
come in, and I said, alfred,you're not going to tell that
story, so you have to pickanother story.
He's like no, I know what storyI'm going to tell.
And I said, ok, let's share thedetails.
What do you have?
And he's like no, I'm good.
I'm good.
I was like, well, alfred, I needto know at least somewhat what
it's about.
And he's like well, it's aboutmy experience in the Vietnam War
(07:41):
.
And I said, ok, alfred, you'vegot to just give me a little bit
more so we can go over.
And I don't want to say no toyou because I don't know what
it's about, but I also don'twant you to go up there and just
say anything.
And it was really important atthis point just that everyone's
included and that everyone kindof gets up there and tells their
story.
So Alfred was hemming andhawing and he said just trust me
(08:05):
and I'll do you good.
And he says his phrase.
So the night of the show comeson and I'm really nervous
because I don't know what he'sgoing to tell and I don't know
how it's going to impact theaudience.
And it was a real risk to taketo just go blind with Alfred,
especially since the story thathe kept insisting on telling was
(08:26):
the one of his wife hitting himover there with a lead pipe.
So he's up there, he's kind ofnervous.
She can hear the changejingling his pocket and his keys
jingling his pocket and hetells the audience that when he
was 18 years old he was in theVietnam War and he was under
Colin Powell and he rememberskind of flying over the country
(08:48):
and kind of bombing differentareas and having a real abstract
sense of the war.
But then at one point they werein the kind of on the ground and
his job was to wait on theperimeter of a base that was
hidden and he was kind of crosslegged in the jungle and as soon
as he got to this point in thestory he was stone cold like
(09:10):
just like a stone statue.
He didn't move and he was justback there in the jungle as an
18 year old kid basically, andhis job was just to not make any
sound, make any motion, and hewas just to watch the perimeter
and kind of only do something ifsomething was kind of alarming
(09:31):
him and there could be anythingout there from like animals that
could devour him, snakes, Like.
It was a very tense, precariousposition to be in.
And he says one day he was kindof there.
And again I'm watching him andit's the one thing I've learned
about storytelling is that ourstories are in our bodies, like
the body really remembers whathappens to us, so someone's
(09:55):
physicality can transform onstage when they're really in the
flow of a moment.
And I could tell that Alfredwas back there and I started to
get a little anxious because Ididn't know if this was
traumatic for him or not.
But he continued and he saidthat he was there one day and it
was silent and then all of asudden he heard this rustling
(10:18):
and he thought it was just ananimal at first, but then it
kind of came closer and closerand closer and then he could see
that it was two Viet Congsoldiers that were just roughly
younger than him by a year ortwo and they were gonna head
right towards him.
So he stayed there and hestayed there and as soon as like
they came close to him, he hada kind of Bowie knife and on the
(10:40):
stage he just kind of made themotion of taking one of the
soldiers and kind of coveringthe mouth and just move the
Bowie knife up the body and thenhe kind of did the same thing
to the other boy and it was themost shocking and incredibly
powerful dramatic moment thatI'd ever seen on stage and I
(11:05):
didn't know where he was gonnago next, like if this was
something that was gonnatraumatize him or something that
was gonna liberate him.
And what he said after thatmoment he says you know, I've
been kind of seeing the war froma very abstract angle and kind
of lost my sense of humanity andthe human scale.
And this was the moment where Ifelt most terrific but also
(11:28):
most human and I wanted to tellthis story, to kind of to share
my humanity.
And for me it was a moment ofwatching someone who was kind of
on the fringe of the group andnot really wanting to contribute
a story and not really kind ofcoming to class but not being
(11:51):
kind of belonging.
And after that story everyonekind of brushed the stage to
kind of hug him and justembraced him in this incredible
sense of belonging Like you'reone of us, you're part of us.
And for me, I realized that,you know, what drew me to
(12:12):
storytelling was thetranscendent moment where we
reveal our humanity, where webecome our most human selves.
And in order to do that, it'snot about the intellectual.
This is the first line, this isthe last line it really is.
What is it about you?
That may not be the mostshining moment in your life, and
(12:32):
maybe something that's veryshameful and difficult, but if
you could reveal it and share it, you'll feel liberated and feel
close to everyone in the room.
And after this moment, you know,going back to the corporate
work was really difficultbecause I said, okay, you know,
here's I'm teaching storytelling, but what am I actually doing?
And there was an occasion whereit's like a couple of weeks
(12:56):
later and it was at Vanguard andit was their global meeting.
It was a hundred leaders fromaround the world meeting in
Pennsylvania and they were at apoint where they were just
becoming a real global company.
So they really wanted to geteveryone in the room together
and connect and really tell thestories about Vanguard and get
to some DNA about this company.
(13:17):
And it was very high stakes.
It was a very you go on stageand you don't want to say the
wrong thing because it's costingthem, you know, scads of money.
And in these instances I'dusually everyone kind of
workshop the story and then yougo through the room and you pick
stories that are going to bepresented at the end.
And so I talked to all thepeople that were helping me and
(13:38):
there was one table and I askedyou know what's the stories here
?
And she says there's a womanhere who when she started
Vanguard she was, you knowhowever, much money and debt and
she would get collectorscalling her while she worked at
Vanguard.
So here she was supposedlyhelping people save and manage
their money and meanwhile shewas getting harassed by debt
(13:58):
collectors.
And normally I would have beenlike, okay, let's pass on that
story because I don't know whatit's going to do to the room,
and I was a little cautious butI was like that sounds like a
great story.
That's volunteer her to tellthe story.
So, similar to kind of watchingAlfred, I was kind of anxious
(14:19):
about what's going to happen andshe told her story and it was
incredibly moving of just thesense of shame and the imposter
syndrome and all this dailygoing into work and just feeling
like why am I, how can I reallybe here and she kind of told
the story about overcoming herdebt and the CEO at the time,
after she finished her story, hegot up on stage.
(14:41):
William Knab, great guy, got upon stage and says this is
exactly what we need.
This is who our customers are.
These are people who areanxious about money, anxious
about their future.
If we can understand them andwe have empathy for them, then
we will be better at our job.
And she was like standingovation, and here's a woman that
(15:02):
was deathly nervous to tell thestory and just totally raised
the roof.
And so after that moment for meI was like, okay, I can't just
go in a room and say, all right,you can share whatever you want
here, it's a safe space, go forit.
And in these companies.
But I also realized that most ofthe problems or challenges that
(15:24):
companies have it starts withfeeling disconnected or just
isolated.
And like if everybody's on thesame page and if everybody's
connected, then anything isaccomplishable and can be
overcome.
And so I really started to justlearn to just embody listening,
like being a presence ofsomebody who's going to listen.
(15:47):
Because Alfred, after thatstory he told, I said, alfred, I
had no idea you're gonna saythat and what possessed you to
kind of go up there and tellthat story, after all these
other attempts to tell the X, ystory?
And he said in that group Ifelt like I was actually being
(16:07):
listened to and I felt like youguys would hear me and so I felt
like it was the right place totell that story.
And I tried this out at a verydifficult gig where it was 60
executives, not a diverse room,not a warm room, a Ritz Carlton
(16:30):
banquet hall, and they had aproblem kind of there was a lack
of mentorship in the company,so there's a disconnect between
one generation and the next.
And I really just put on mylistening, kind of embodied
listening in the way that I can,and I'll never forget there was
one gentleman who volunteeredin the whole room.
(16:52):
He was the first person to goand this company had lost people
in 9-11.
And he had been in thatbuilding and he had kind of gone
against the what was theconventional wisdom of staying
in the building and led histotal floor down through the
building and they all escapedsafely and he did a blow by blow
(17:14):
of what happened during thatday and no one in that room had
heard that story or evenbothered to ask him kind of what
that day was like or whathappened, and that room was
transformed.
And for me, storytelling is askill set and it's a very
(17:35):
important skill set to learn.
But it's also this alchemical,magical mystery that is so
potent and so powerful and ifyou really allow it to be what
it wants to be, I think dramaticchange, dramatic breakthroughs,
connection can happen.
And for me that kind ofrealization came from Alfred and
(18:00):
just his courage and bravery tosay something that could have
been very off-putting ordifficult or triggering for
people, but it really justshowed his humanness, which is
why we share and tell stories.
Max Chopovsky (18:17):
That was incredible.
Thank you for sharing that.
One of my favorite parts aboutthat is it was very meta.
It was a story about stories.
I would expect no less of you.
One of the things that I feellike it demonstrated is the
power of listening when peoplemight not open up unless they
(18:43):
feel like they're really beingheard.
I think that's prettyunderrated.
I mean, the conversations thatI have with guests on the show
is why should we do the show?
One of the reasons I give themis because I don't know how
often this happens to you, butyou will actually feel like
(19:04):
you're being heard.
I think that's sadly.
That's underrated.
It doesn't happen as often aswe like.
I want to ask you what ended uphappening to Alfred.
Did he end up graduating,leaving the program?
What was his story arc?
Terence Mickey (19:24):
Yeah, he graduated and left the program.
He actually told that story afew times in other venues.
That often happens as people ina very off-field workshop.
That's not about performance,they have no interest in
performing, they'll get the bugand just have this story.
Life where this is one of thestories they'll tell.
(19:44):
He became somebody that sharedthat as a teaching and gave him
a sense that he could dosomething with a very tragic and
dark part of his life thatcould help other people.
Max Chopovsky (20:00):
It's such an interesting comment that he made
that the war was so abstract tohim when he was flying over and
dropping bombs, and yet it wentfrom that to probably as
personal as it could get, whichis hand-to-hand combat, and what
an interesting story arc.
In fact, I feel like there areso many story arcs within the
(20:22):
story that you told.
There's the story arc of Alfredfrom telling this, from
lobbying you to be able to tellthis story, about the ex-wife in
the pipe, and the story arc ofthe woman at the Vanguard
meeting of going up and tellingher story.
(20:43):
And the story arc of the CEO,the story arc of the meeting
with the guy from 9-11 becausenobody had bothered to ask him.
But I think what's reallyinteresting is your story arc
because all of those, especiallyAlfred, they informed your
(21:03):
trajectory as it relates to howyou perceive storytelling.
I mean, with Alfred, the tensionis kind of your loss of control
, because it was such a tenuoussituation where, hey, I don't
know what he's going to tell.
I mean, this guy's got a trackrecord of being out there with
(21:24):
the kind of story he wants totell, but you leaned into that.
You were like, okay, I'm goingto go with it.
So there's some tension andthen, as you realized hey, you
know what, sometimes I have togive up control you applied that
to the corporate gig, to prettypositive results, and so I just
(21:53):
think that that's fascinatingwhat stories do and you know,
this is at the end of the day.
They serve to connect us, toreveal our collective humanity,
and what I find so fascinatingis if you feel like somebody is
(22:16):
listening, it helps you to openup and to be more vulnerable.
Right, but the very last partof your story about the guy that
led his floor to safety on 9-11flips that paradigm on its head
and says actually, sometimes,if you go out on a limb and you
(22:42):
are vulnerable before people arelistening, you can transform
the room and then they startlistening.
Terence Mickey (22:50):
You know, I think listening, you know
there's a lot about storytellingand how to tell a story and how
to have these certain pointsand organize, but the real way
to become truly good atstorytelling is just to listen
to other people Like you'lllearn so much from what, where
people go, what they share.
(23:11):
And I think you know, in thatinstance, with the 9-11 hero, he
knew that someone was listening.
You know, maybe the whole roomwas a little bit off, but he
knew that there was at least oneperson that was going to get it
and it was an opportunity toshare it.
I think you know what you saidabout opportunity for your
guests to come on and be heard.
(23:32):
Since it is so rare, even ifit's just one person, we're kind
of going to go for it becausethere's so much that we in our
daily lives don't get to shareor don't really kind of talk
about.
So when there is theopportunity there, I feel like
anyone will go for it because itis rare.
And so, as somebody who'strying to help people tell their
(23:52):
stories, you know listening isthe best way to get them to
really yeah feel safe andcourageous enough to go to that
place, and then it transforms,yeah, everybody who hears it and
everybody around them.
Max Chopovsky (24:06):
What do you find is the biggest obstacle to
getting people to open up and bevulnerable?
Terence Mickey (24:11):
Fear.
I mean, how is this going toland?
How are people going to thinkof me in a corporate environment
?
I mean, you think about it.
You got to work with thesepeople.
These people are probably incompetition with you.
There's so much that's fraughtthere and I think that the
unknown like I've never donethis before and how am I going
to do it?
On the one hand, you're tryingto learn something that's
(24:33):
difficult.
Two, what's at the heart of itis something that makes you
vulnerable.
And three, you're around peoplewho you don't want to judge you
.
I mean, there's so many.
There's really, when I thinkabout it, there's so many
reasons not to go and share.
And coming into an organizationand trying to do that is kind
(24:54):
of like a Herculean task.
I think what helps me not getcaught up in that is I know what
the end result will be Like.
I know in so many hours, thisgroup will all be connected to
one another and the room willchange and that kind of gives me
a confidence.
But when you look at it, on itssurface there's a lot to kind
of to make people not want toshare and not want to tell their
(25:16):
story.
Max Chopovsky (25:18):
Like when you think about in corporate
environments.
They do these ice breakers oh,tell us something, tell us your
favorite TV show or yourfavorite dish and everybody just
kind of thinks like, oh, that'skind of cheesy.
They kind of look at each otherlike, oh, here we go again with
this shit.
But what's interesting is, oncethey do it, they I mean, it's
(25:39):
happened to me before, I used tobe in the corporate environment
you start talking so much topeople at your table after you
find something in common withthem that the facilitator has
trouble getting people to stoptalking and move on to the next
exercise.
You know, I guess I just wonderwhy people are so fearful of
being judged, fearful of maybebeing ostracized or not accepted
(26:03):
, that they feel like theirexperience is so uniquely theirs
and that they have so little incommon with the people around
them that they don't want toshare.
And once they end up sharing,then they realize, hey, we have
so much more in common than wethought and it's just mind
blowing to me that I mean, I getit.
People are afraid of beingjudged, they're afraid of
(26:25):
failure, they're afraid of beingleft out, but at the end of the
day we realize like we havemore in common than we think.
It's a pretty romanticized wayof looking at it, but I also
think there's a lot to that,because the alternative to that
is isolation.
Terence Mickey (26:40):
Yeah, I mean the irony is that you're starting
off from a place of isolationbecause you're thinking this has
only happened to me and it'sI'm alone with it.
So you're already in a place oflike, okay, I don't want to
share this because this is justmy thing, but so that's the
irony is, you're alreadystarting from isolation but
you're afraid of isolation.
But chances are, if you do sharesomething you'll, like you said
(27:03):
, you'll see that you have waymore in common with the person
next to you than you could haveimagined, because and I think
you know, for Alfred's story forme helped me.
You know I had a lot of tragedyin my family and a lot of things
that I didn't bring into mystorytelling, like my uncle
committed suicide and thingsthat were very, yeah, personal
(27:25):
and dark, and that too, kind ofbroke open my own storytelling
to just be more vulnerable withthings that I would conceive of
us off limits.
And the irony was that thosethings that I shared got the
most response, because ifanybody's had, like, a tragedy
like that in their family, theydon't hear that stuff that often
(27:45):
.
So if somebody is talking aboutit it's kind of magnetic
because, okay, now we canfinally discuss that thing and
I'm a firm believer in there's aright place and a right time.
But I think when the context isright to share something that
is very personal and could beseen as something very difficult
and tragic, it just helpspeople around you to not feel as
(28:09):
isolated and as alone.
Max Chopovsky (28:13):
Was this your uncle that was in the sanitation
business and then opened hisown and then it got shut down
after six months?
Was that him?
Terence Mickey (28:20):
No, that's Jimmy .
Jimmy's still alive and kicking.
No, my mother is one of 10, soI have many uncles.
So it was that uncle's brother,tom.
Okay, yeah.
Max Chopovsky (28:32):
So I used to have a video production company and
we would do a lot of corporatework and one time we flew to New
York to do a video for a bigfinancial services company and
we were at their headquartersand we were doing a series of
(28:52):
interviews with high-levelexecutives about this workshop
that they did that centered onevaluating their childhood
experiences and understandinghow the trauma from those
experiences may make themsusceptible to predisposed
notions and how it impacts theirdecision-making.
(29:15):
I mean, it was a really, reallyraw and emotional workshop and
we were interviewing theexecutives that went through
that workshop and as theinterviewer I would pride myself
on eliciting tears out of mysubjects, because that meant
(29:36):
that the content was real, raw,emotional, authentic, vulnerable
.
I didn't unnecessarily pushthem, but if I could coax
certain things out of them itwould make me feel like it was a
more powerful narrative.
And there was a seniorexecutive that I was
(29:58):
interviewing and in a financialservices company like Vanguard,
like what you talked about,everybody sort of buttoned up
right and whether they're in aroom in front of their
colleagues or whether they're inan interview where there's
people they don't know peoplefrom our video production
company, maybe a couple ofcolleagues.
(30:18):
They're still going to bepretty buttoned up, but I think
it was pretty fertile ground,considering the subject matter
right.
And so this woman wasincredibly intelligent,
articulate, just very puttogether.
And then we started getting intothis you know the workshop and
(30:40):
she just starts talking abouthow, for the longest time, she
felt like she wasn't enough,like she was inadequate, and how
that impacted her interactionswith her colleagues and how much
time she feels she lost as aresult of not being authentic,
(31:01):
not being vulnerable, how thatimpacted her family life and how
she came home, stressed to herkids and couldn't be a great mom
and how that sort ofperpetuated this notion that she
wasn't enough.
And she goes into how thisworkshop made her feel like she
is enough.
And she's telling me this andshe starts crying on camera and
she's like it made me feel likeI'm good enough, that I'm enough
(31:23):
and like I'm about to starttearing up, right, I mean I look
around me like the producer iscrying and I'm just like this is
gold, like this is incredible,but not for the sake of sort of
showing this off and saying, hey, I'm a good interviewer, I
elicited this from her.
It was gold from theperspective of.
She is giving one of the mostauthentic, beautiful interviews
(31:47):
that I've ever been able to have, and my urge right after this
thing is to walk up to her andgive her a huge hug and be like
I know exactly how you feel.
I've felt inadequate so manytimes in my life and I'm so glad
that you shared that.
And I gave her a hug afterwardsand I just said, hey, thank you
(32:10):
so much for sharing that, but Ifelt so much more connected to
her, even though I'm literallyjust the guy that's behind the
camera, just there to get thestory right.
So we wrap up the filming and Iimmediately am like this is
only going to be a five minutedeliverable.
At best she is going to have,you know, top billing for this
(32:31):
thing.
Like I want her on the preview,I want her as the sort of apex
of this video.
I get an email from her thatnight and she says hey, I just
wanted to thank you for thewonderful interview and I also
wanted to ask you not to use thepart where I'm crying, and I
was like I completely understandyour wish is my command.
(32:56):
I will not do that if you don'twant me to, because that video
was going to be screened infront of like 5,600 people, and
after I sent that email I waslike man, I'm a little
disappointed, not just in thefact that the video isn't going
to be as powerful without her,but also in the fact that
perhaps the story arc is stillincomplete, right?
(33:20):
Perhaps she still feels deepdown as if she can't expose that
part of herself to hercolleagues because they'll judge
her, they won't accept her orwhatever.
And so I was a little sadbecause I feel like it's such a
missed opportunity, the way thatshe was able to connect with
everyone in our small room whenwe were doing the interview.
She could connect with so manyother people, so many moms who
feel like they can't balance itall, or so many executives who
(33:42):
feel like they always havesomething to prove, and so I was
a little sad about that.
But I was happy that in thatmoment, in that one sort of
fleeting moment, she was able tocompletely let it go and just
say here's who I am as a person.
It was really magical.
Terence Mickey (34:01):
Yeah, that's a great story.
I think that, for me, pointsout the process.
She's so fresh with thatemotion and that realization
that she had that moment withyou and you could create that
moment for her.
But it's not necessarily thatshe's ready to share that
outside of that room.
That's the strange thing abouthaving a camera and recorder and
(34:24):
it's such an intimateexperience because you're in a
small room, especially themicrophone, there's no thing
kind of pointed at you andyou're revealing things that you
think you're just telling oneperson, but if it's going to be
broadcast you're tellingthousands of people and I think
for people it's a process to getto that point.
For her, maybe a year later shedid feel comfortable when she's
(34:48):
kind of understood the emotionand totally processed it for
herself.
That's the thing that we oftensay in storytelling is, you
don't want to be telling a storytoo soon after an experience
because it's so fresh and so rawthat you don't have the
distance you want and sometimesyou may get a vulnerability
hangover because it's still inyou.
(35:11):
But I think it's important tohave those moments because for
her, having that experience withyou lets her know how she feels
and how important it is andhopefully she'll get to that
point where it's like okay, nowI can share this beyond and
change people's perspectivesbecause what she expressed who
doesn't feel that?
I don't know anyone thatdoesn't feel like they're not
(35:34):
enough or has that negativechatter in their head, and
that's why it's important tokind of share those stories to
realize we're all on the samepage.
Max Chopovsky (35:43):
It really is.
It really is.
So let's talk about the storythat you told.
What is the moral of that story?
Terence Mickey (35:51):
I think there's a few morals.
For me personally, it's toremember the storytelling is
both of the heart and the mindand not just kind of one solo
version, and just the power oflistening.
How listening can elicit thingsfrom people and change people,
and how that can kind of changeeveryone who's in the room with
(36:11):
you.
Max Chopovsky (36:15):
And I agree with that, because you have to sort
of understand structure andstory arc and narrative.
But at the end of the day,that's nothing but a foundation,
it's nothing but a guide.
You really can only connectwith people through emotion, and
so that's where the heart comesin.
So, yeah, it really is an artform.
(36:36):
Now, you obviously have heard aton of stories, you've told a
ton of stories.
Why did you select this one?
Terence Mickey (36:46):
I've never told that story before and I like the
fact that it was meta becauseit was a kind of lesson for me
and my own storytelling journeyof what are we doing, why are we
doing it, and so it was kind ofa reckoning for me that I
thought people would appreciate,and what do you think makes the
story so powerful?
(37:08):
I think in all those instancesof kind of Alfred, the woman of
Vanguard and the gentleman fromwith the 9-11 story is, here are
all people that have beencarrying around this incredible
burden that they haven't sharedwith anybody else, and here's
this occasion where they're allable to kind of finally unburden
(37:29):
that or kind of reveal thatstory and kind of return.
Like you know, I think when weare kind of holding something in
ourselves, you can kind of feelremoved and distant from people
.
I mean that woman in your story.
She felt like she couldn't beauthentic at work, she couldn't
really connect with peoplebecause she was holding onto the
script in her mind of that.
(37:50):
She's not good enough.
I think we all do that withdifferent parts of ourselves.
So when you can kind ofremember that for yourself and
become a member again in thegroup and kind of return to the
tribe, it's such a potent andsuch a transformative moment.
So I think that's what for me,like those three people in that
(38:13):
story, all have that sameexperience that we all long for.
So seeing it happen and seeingpeople kind of embrace them is
such a reassuring, positiveoutcome.
Max Chopovsky (38:27):
I feel like it's kind of a spectrum from being a
robot and sharing nothing tojust being a puddle of drama
that just overshares everything.
So I guess I wonder how do youknow when you're maybe going too
(38:50):
far on the sharing side ofthings?
Because I do feel like thereprobably is at some point.
You probably get into theterritory of oversharing or
complaining too much or whatever.
Right, I feel like there's apoint where you can go too far.
So how do you know when you'reapproaching that territory?
Terence Mickey (39:10):
I think you always have to have the audience
in mind.
It's not really for you, eventhough you're doing it and
you're going to have anexperience.
You are in front of an audienceand I think if you care about
that audience and think about,okay, what can they either get
from this, or how will they bemoved by this, or what will they
get from it, then you're in asafe zone because it's not about
(39:31):
your ego and not about I haveto get this off my chest because
this happened to me.
That's a dangerous territorybecause you're going to share
stuff that maybe doesn'tresonate with an audience and is
stuff that you haven't evenprocessed yet.
I think, if you remember, okay,I care about the person who's
going to hear this.
What do they need to hear?
How can it help them or impactthem or entertain them?
(39:54):
Then you're in a place whereyou're not going to go too far,
where you're just revealing yourguts.
Max Chopovsky (40:02):
You avoid the therapy session.
Terence Mickey (40:04):
Yeah, like you're a host.
You're taking someone on ajourney.
You want to be a really goodguide and host and not let them
get too scared or feel too lost.
You're just comfortable ingetting them through that
journey.
Max Chopovsky (40:22):
Now, memory is obviously a fickle thing, as you
know and have researched manytimes, and stories change from
telling to telling.
You even mentioned how you'reamazed how people change stories
based on their recollection ofthe story.
The further removed from astory we are, the more leeway we
take, the more creativeliberties and or maybe forced
(40:45):
deviations from the originalstory we take.
Sometimes I feel like thosedeviations actually make the
story better, even if lesstruthful.
You add additional drama to itthat wasn't a part of the
original story and it becomesalmost mythological.
I wonder with this story Idon't know how long ago this was
(41:10):
, but have you tweaked it overtime?
Because sometimes we can tweakit based on memory, based on the
accuracy of our recollections.
Sometimes we tweak it based onaudience input and maybe trial
and error around.
What lands best.
Should we eliminate unnecessarydetails?
Have you tweaked this storyover time?
Terence Mickey (41:33):
Since I haven't told it before.
I didn't tweak it, but I havetold the Alfred story before,
just as a separate thing, and itwas interesting to go beyond
Alfred and talk about how itchanged me, Because I think when
I told it in the past it wasjust here was this incredible
guy and this is the experiencehe had and how amazing that was.
(41:54):
But in thinking about it as astory to tell you, I was really
thinking about okay, how didthat change?
What was my relationship toAlfred and how did it change me,
how it forced me to think aboutthat time, think about that
weird bifurcated life I had andthen try to find meaning.
I think that's the thing thatwe're meaning making machines as
(42:16):
storytellers.
That can sometimes be veryhelpful and also sometimes very
dangerous, because we willjigger certain things and change
certain things because we wantit to mean something.
I think that's why it'simportant to have perspective
and why stories change.
Maybe the meaning when you're20 is totally different when
you're 40 or 50.
Max Chopovsky (42:39):
Let me tweak the question then.
Do you think that if you tellthe story again, you will tweak
it the next time you tell it,and if so, what would you change
?
Terence Mickey (42:49):
That's a great question.
I'm a tweaker, so I like totinker and change things and I
definitely will change thingswith an audience a different
audience For me.
I'm very conscious of someone'slistening and what they're
experiencing.
My tweaking often happens inthe moment.
If there's something that'sreally engaging them, then I'll
(43:11):
add a few more details and go alittle deeper into that, just to
give them that gift.
If it's something they'rerepulsed or recoiled by, then
I'll try to do a side step.
I often tweak in the moment,but if I were to think about
yeah, I don't know how I tweakedthat story.
What surprised me in thistelling was I usually get very
(43:32):
choked up in recounting Alfred'sstory because he's still very.
It's like yesterday he wentinto such a state of being an
18-year-old boy, even thoughhe's a grown man, that it just
moved me to no end.
I was surprised that I held ittogether in recounting his story
Based on my last story.
Max Chopovsky (43:53):
I think you can tell that I'm a little
disappointed that you held ittogether.
Terence Mickey (44:00):
I know I didn't give you good tape.
Max Chopovsky (44:03):
No, listen, I think the story was fantastic,
as I think about what resonatedwith me and if I were to tell
that story I would make it evenmore visceral when Alfred had to
kill the two kids that werebasically younger than him,
which basically you're tellingme would make him 17 years old.
The way he slit them frombottom to top with a knife.
(44:27):
That is such a memorable,visual, horrific image of war
that it really cements hisstatement that this made it so
much more real to me because Iwent literally from the
30,000-foot level down to groundlevel.
When you talk about theVanguard story and how she said
(44:48):
that she was broke, the CEO'sstory arc is evidenced by his
facial expressions and theimpact the story had on him.
For the 9-11 story, it's almostlike again if I were telling a
story.
I can almost, because I loveeliciting emotion in the
listeners, even if it means Ihave to fudge a couple of
(45:12):
non-material facts but adddetails that make it even more
real for them.
It's like the guy's tellingthis story and I look around the
room and I realize thateverybody who was so stoic just
minutes before you could tellthat they at once started sort
of tearing up and also literallycouldn't wait to get up and go
(45:36):
give him a hug or shake his handor whatever.
The emotional part of it, right?
I just think that is.
Those are the stories that Iremember most, because you paint
your own visual picture of thatnarrative and you add those
emotional details.
What do you think great storieshave in common?
Terence Mickey (45:58):
I think great stories have compelling
characters, like characters thathave stakes, high stakes.
I think stakes are critical.
And then transformation.
I think when you can actuallysee someone change in a story,
that's the goal.
I mean, that's why we kind ofcome back to stories and it's
very hard to do.
I mean it's really, it's reallydifficult when it's your own
(46:21):
story, when it's fiction, it'sjust a really difficult.
Max Chopovsky (46:25):
But when you do it, that's the alchemical magic
it's just incredible to bewitness to that Totally, which
means that either if thetransformation happens over a
short period of time, thatsomething's been leading up to
that singular moment oftransformation, or you have to
expand the time horizon, becausepeople usually don't change in
(46:46):
a moment, so suddenly you haveto zoom out and the time horizon
has to be longer so you candocument that character arc
right.
Terence Mickey (46:53):
Yeah, and usually the stakes kind of let
you know how big of a story it'sgoing to be.
If the stakes are not that high, the attention is kind of only
limited.
But if the stakes are reallyhigh, then you can tease that
out for as long as you want.
Totally.
Max Chopovsky (47:08):
Now you're what I would call what I think many
people would call a professionalstoryteller.
How do you use storytelling inyour personal life?
Terence Mickey (47:18):
For me I often, you know, to connect with
friends.
For me I love recounting, maybe, trials and tribulations in a
humorous way to just both kindof get something off my chest of
like this really was difficultand sucked, and also just making
someone else laugh andconnecting with them so that
they can hear my trials andtribulations without being
(47:41):
traumatized themselves.
But it just as a way to deeplyconnect with people and I love
hearing people's stories.
Like I'll have a very kind ofhigh attention span for people
that want to share what they'vebeen going through.
Yeah, so I think primarily justas a way to connect with people
in my personal life and it'sjust fun.
(48:03):
I can't get enough of them.
Like I just I enjoy it.
Max Chopovsky (48:07):
Like tell me more .
So let's talk about books for asecond.
I'm sure you've read your fairshare of some really captivating
works.
So what are you know one or twoof your books that just nail
storytelling.
Terence Mickey (48:22):
I love George Saunders.
A Swim and a Pond in the Rain.
It's a great craft book aboutshort stories and stories in
general.
He is such an incrediblegenerous teacher and so astute
that that's one of my favoritesI love it.
Max Chopovsky (48:41):
I love it.
Well, last question for you,terrence If you could say one
thing to your 20 year old self,what would it be?
Terence Mickey (48:55):
Be kinder to yourself.
Max Chopovsky (48:57):
Yeah, I would assume that your 20 year old
self probably would not listento that advice.
Terence Mickey (49:03):
Yes, yes, I think you're right.
I think you're right.
My 20 year old self was verystubborn.
Max Chopovsky (49:09):
I think most 20 year olds are pretty stubborn.
I was and I was, still am, butI was a lot more stubbornly
harder myself.
So it's good advice, but Ithink, as I've said before, I
think that we have to go throughthat time to reach what
hopefully is, you know, aglimmer of wisdom in our later
(49:31):
years.
But we wouldn't be able to gethere without having experienced
there.
Terence Mickey (49:38):
Yeah, and all those hiccups and mistakes,
those are our stories.
I mean all that stubborn, youknow snis than what it led to.
That gives us the material towork with.
Max Chopovsky (49:50):
Yeah, you have to have a character arc, right.
Well, that does it.
Terrence Mickey, master,storyteller and listener and
curator, thank you for being onthe show.
Terence Mickey (50:06):
Thank you, such a pleasure.
Thank you very much.
Max Chopovsky (50:09):
Of course, for show notes and more, head over
to MossPodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was more of the story.
I'm Max Tropowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
We'll see you next time.
This is Moral of the Story interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, Max Jepowsky.
Today's guest is Terence Mickey, whose incredibly diverse life
pursuits have one thing incommon storytelling.
Now, this is something I canget behind, but let's just call
(00:22):
a spade a spade.
The word storytelling hasgotten so cliche as to be more
satire than flattery.
Everyone calls themselves astoryteller.
These days, we can't justfrivolously bestow the title,
can we?
Well, let's see Education.
Terence graduated from StMichael's College with a
bachelor's degree in English,declaring war on the Oxford
(00:44):
comma and forever purgingdangling modifiers and double
negatives from his lexicon,while casually establishing a
campus literary journal Highereducation.
With a solid foundation inplace, Terence went on to get
his MFA and creative writingfrom UC Irvine before heading to
storytelling behemoth, the Moth, where he spent six years as a
lead presenter, trainer anddeveloper of corporate programs,
(01:06):
aka professor of storytellingGarbage, let's not fool
ourselves.
Terence has more than once beenwilling to get his hands dirty.
The summer after graduatingcollege, his uncle invited him
into the family business, whichhappened to be sanitation.
Yes, he joined the Garbagedynasty as head of PR.
(01:28):
So still storytelling.
Terence has written, directedand executive produced content
for Starz, Blinkist, the WeatherChannel, Discovery and other
household names.
Among his many notablecreations is the critically
acclaimed podcast Memory Motel,which focuses on the stories we
choose to remember or forget,and he also found the time to
(01:49):
direct the award-winningdocumentary One Billion Orgasms.
Again, like the flags held highby the leaders of elderly tour
groups on tourist excursions,this storytelling theme is front
and center, clear as day.
These days, from a home base inBerlin, Terence finds himself
traveling the globe, teachingstorytelling at seminars and
writing retreats for his company, Wayfinder Sessions, which has
(02:11):
the kind of tagline that elicitsthe closing of the eyes and a
deep breath we meet you whereyou are and guide you to where
you belong.
So, yes, I think it's fair tocall this man not just a
storyteller, but a storylistener, a story collector and
a story teacher.
Terence, welcome to the show.
Terence Mickey (02:31):
Thank you, Max.
That was an incredibly generousand warm-hearted intro.
Intros are an art form and youhave mastered them.
Max Chopovsky (02:41):
Well, I just am very fortunate to have
incredible storytellers sharetheir time and stories with me,
and so this is the least that Ican do.
I appreciate it.
So you are here to tell us astory.
Is there anything that weshould know before we start?
Do you want to set the stage atall?
Terence Mickey (03:02):
No, they should know nothing.
They should be pleasantlysurprised.
Max Chopovsky (03:05):
I love it.
They cold open.
Let's do this thing.
Tell me a story.
Terence Mickey (03:10):
Okay.
So when I worked at the Moth Isupported two programs the
corporate program, whichinvolved teaching executives at
a portion of Havendra companies,and the outreach program, which
included teaching everyone fromat-risk youth to addicts and
recovery to people with mentalhealth disabilities, and these
(03:33):
two worlds can be further fromeach other.
Until one day they weren't.
A typical week would look likeMonday through Wednesday.
I could be in some far-flungcity teaching workshops to a
corporation, and it always had avery particular purpose, like
selling a product or working onsome internal problem, and was
(03:56):
very intellectual, and I lovedit, because I'm a story nerd and
organizing information wassomething I'd love to do.
I always am an element ofproblem solving, but it was very
much storytelling for aparticular purpose and very much
in the head.
And then every Thursday at thispoint I would be going up to
the Bronx, schlepping the trainup there and going to Star Hill
(04:20):
Addiction Treatment Center.
It was the largest addictiontreatment center in New York and
it was like a big castle onthis hill and the director, dan,
had started a program therethat I had taught once before
and his vision for the programwas to teach people who were
overcoming addictionstorytelling ostensibly to just
(04:42):
kind of feel like they haveanother skill set.
But there was also a kind ofhidden agenda in that he found
that people who were in thisclass tended to complete the
program at a higher rate thanother people who weren't
attending any similar class.
So it was a good retention rate, like 90% of the people.
And it was very fraught becauseyou had to be careful that you
(05:06):
weren't re-traumatizing somebody.
So you kind of danced carefullyaround what people could share
or what people couldn't share.
So both kind of it was a verybifurcated week for me because
there was very much like thestrategic, intellectual aspect
of storytelling and then thisdeeper level.
But it was also limited becauseI couldn't go anywhere.
(05:30):
And there was one student inthis class at the Star Hill,
alfred.
He was a very tall, lanky manand one pocket he had changed,
the other pocket had his keysand he was with his hands in his
pockets.
He's just jingle janglethroughout the whole class.
He had a lot of energy and hehad a lot of nerves and the
story that Alfred was convincedthat he wanted to tell was the
(05:52):
time that his ex-wife found outthat he cheated on him and hit
him over the head with a metalpipe Every class, I would
convince Alfred that this is notthe story you want to tell.
And basically you didn't changeAlfred.
There's no arc for you, therewas no significant
transformation.
I don't think it's the storyyou wouldn't tell.
(06:15):
And at this point storytellinghad become too much of an
intellectual exercise for me.
It was very much about what'syour first line, how do you get
there, and often people are soanxious they just want to know
how to do it.
So it wasn't that transcendentexperience that I went to
storytelling in the beginning,like for me.
I was 16 years old.
(06:36):
I read a check-off story inEnglish class and I felt such a
profound sense of emotion that Iwanted to understand how it
worked.
So storytelling for me wasalways the intersection between
the heart and the mind and Ifelt like I was spending too
much time in my mind at thispoint.
(06:57):
So Alfred, every week, wouldcome to class with the same
insistence that this was thestory he's going to tell, and
he'd even shared details aboutwhere he was, what the pipe felt
like, and he really wanted tosell this story and I kept
saying no.
I kept saying no and we weregetting really close to the show
.
It was like a week before theshow was going to happen, where
(07:19):
they present to the whole center, where people from the outside
come in, and I said, alfred,you're not going to tell that
story, so you have to pickanother story.
He's like no, I know what storyI'm going to tell.
And I said, ok, let's share thedetails.
What do you have?
And he's like no, I'm good.
I'm good.
I was like, well, alfred, I needto know at least somewhat what
it's about.
And he's like well, it's aboutmy experience in the Vietnam War
(07:41):
.
And I said, ok, alfred, you'vegot to just give me a little bit
more so we can go over.
And I don't want to say no toyou because I don't know what
it's about, but I also don'twant you to go up there and just
say anything.
And it was really important atthis point just that everyone's
included and that everyone kindof gets up there and tells their
story.
So Alfred was hemming andhawing and he said just trust me
(08:05):
and I'll do you good.
And he says his phrase.
So the night of the show comeson and I'm really nervous
because I don't know what he'sgoing to tell and I don't know
how it's going to impact theaudience.
And it was a real risk to taketo just go blind with Alfred,
especially since the story thathe kept insisting on telling was
(08:26):
the one of his wife hitting himover there with a lead pipe.
So he's up there, he's kind ofnervous.
She can hear the changejingling his pocket and his keys
jingling his pocket and hetells the audience that when he
was 18 years old he was in theVietnam War and he was under
Colin Powell and he rememberskind of flying over the country
(08:48):
and kind of bombing differentareas and having a real abstract
sense of the war.
But then at one point they werein the kind of on the ground and
his job was to wait on theperimeter of a base that was
hidden and he was kind of crosslegged in the jungle and as soon
as he got to this point in thestory he was stone cold like
(09:10):
just like a stone statue.
He didn't move and he was justback there in the jungle as an
18 year old kid basically, andhis job was just to not make any
sound, make any motion, and hewas just to watch the perimeter
and kind of only do something ifsomething was kind of alarming
(09:31):
him and there could be anythingout there from like animals that
could devour him, snakes, Like.
It was a very tense, precariousposition to be in.
And he says one day he was kindof there.
And again I'm watching him andit's the one thing I've learned
about storytelling is that ourstories are in our bodies, like
the body really remembers whathappens to us, so someone's
(09:55):
physicality can transform onstage when they're really in the
flow of a moment.
And I could tell that Alfredwas back there and I started to
get a little anxious because Ididn't know if this was
traumatic for him or not.
But he continued and he saidthat he was there one day and it
was silent and then all of asudden he heard this rustling
(10:18):
and he thought it was just ananimal at first, but then it
kind of came closer and closerand closer and then he could see
that it was two Viet Congsoldiers that were just roughly
younger than him by a year ortwo and they were gonna head
right towards him.
So he stayed there and hestayed there and as soon as like
they came close to him, he hada kind of Bowie knife and on the
(10:40):
stage he just kind of made themotion of taking one of the
soldiers and kind of coveringthe mouth and just move the
Bowie knife up the body and thenhe kind of did the same thing
to the other boy and it was themost shocking and incredibly
powerful dramatic moment thatI'd ever seen on stage and I
(11:05):
didn't know where he was gonnago next, like if this was
something that was gonnatraumatize him or something that
was gonna liberate him.
And what he said after thatmoment he says you know, I've
been kind of seeing the war froma very abstract angle and kind
of lost my sense of humanity andthe human scale.
And this was the moment where Ifelt most terrific but also
(11:28):
most human and I wanted to tellthis story, to kind of to share
my humanity.
And for me it was a moment ofwatching someone who was kind of
on the fringe of the group andnot really wanting to contribute
a story and not really kind ofcoming to class but not being
(11:51):
kind of belonging.
And after that story everyonekind of brushed the stage to
kind of hug him and justembraced him in this incredible
sense of belonging Like you'reone of us, you're part of us.
And for me, I realized that,you know, what drew me to
(12:12):
storytelling was thetranscendent moment where we
reveal our humanity, where webecome our most human selves.
And in order to do that, it'snot about the intellectual.
This is the first line, this isthe last line it really is.
What is it about you?
That may not be the mostshining moment in your life, and
(12:32):
maybe something that's veryshameful and difficult, but if
you could reveal it and share it, you'll feel liberated and feel
close to everyone in the room.
And after this moment, you know,going back to the corporate
work was really difficultbecause I said, okay, you know,
here's I'm teaching storytelling, but what am I actually doing?
And there was an occasion whereit's like a couple of weeks
(12:56):
later and it was at Vanguard andit was their global meeting.
It was a hundred leaders fromaround the world meeting in
Pennsylvania and they were at apoint where they were just
becoming a real global company.
So they really wanted to geteveryone in the room together
and connect and really tell thestories about Vanguard and get
to some DNA about this company.
(13:17):
And it was very high stakes.
It was a very you go on stageand you don't want to say the
wrong thing because it's costingthem, you know, scads of money.
And in these instances I'dusually everyone kind of
workshop the story and then yougo through the room and you pick
stories that are going to bepresented at the end.
And so I talked to all thepeople that were helping me and
(13:38):
there was one table and I askedyou know what's the stories here
?
And she says there's a womanhere who when she started
Vanguard she was, you knowhowever, much money and debt and
she would get collectorscalling her while she worked at
Vanguard.
So here she was supposedlyhelping people save and manage
their money and meanwhile shewas getting harassed by debt
(13:58):
collectors.
And normally I would have beenlike, okay, let's pass on that
story because I don't know whatit's going to do to the room,
and I was a little cautious butI was like that sounds like a
great story.
That's volunteer her to tellthe story.
So, similar to kind of watchingAlfred, I was kind of anxious
(14:19):
about what's going to happen andshe told her story and it was
incredibly moving of just thesense of shame and the imposter
syndrome and all this dailygoing into work and just feeling
like why am I, how can I reallybe here and she kind of told
the story about overcoming herdebt and the CEO at the time,
after she finished her story, hegot up on stage.
(14:41):
William Knab, great guy, got upon stage and says this is
exactly what we need.
This is who our customers are.
These are people who areanxious about money, anxious
about their future.
If we can understand them andwe have empathy for them, then
we will be better at our job.
And she was like standingovation, and here's a woman that
(15:02):
was deathly nervous to tell thestory and just totally raised
the roof.
And so after that moment for meI was like, okay, I can't just
go in a room and say, all right,you can share whatever you want
here, it's a safe space, go forit.
And in these companies.
But I also realized that most ofthe problems or challenges that
(15:24):
companies have it starts withfeeling disconnected or just
isolated.
And like if everybody's on thesame page and if everybody's
connected, then anything isaccomplishable and can be
overcome.
And so I really started to justlearn to just embody listening,
like being a presence ofsomebody who's going to listen.
(15:47):
Because Alfred, after thatstory he told, I said, alfred, I
had no idea you're gonna saythat and what possessed you to
kind of go up there and tellthat story, after all these
other attempts to tell the X, ystory?
And he said in that group Ifelt like I was actually being
(16:07):
listened to and I felt like youguys would hear me and so I felt
like it was the right place totell that story.
And I tried this out at a verydifficult gig where it was 60
executives, not a diverse room,not a warm room, a Ritz Carlton
(16:30):
banquet hall, and they had aproblem kind of there was a lack
of mentorship in the company,so there's a disconnect between
one generation and the next.
And I really just put on mylistening, kind of embodied
listening in the way that I can,and I'll never forget there was
one gentleman who volunteeredin the whole room.
(16:52):
He was the first person to goand this company had lost people
in 9-11.
And he had been in thatbuilding and he had kind of gone
against the what was theconventional wisdom of staying
in the building and led histotal floor down through the
building and they all escapedsafely and he did a blow by blow
(17:14):
of what happened during thatday and no one in that room had
heard that story or evenbothered to ask him kind of what
that day was like or whathappened, and that room was
transformed.
And for me, storytelling is askill set and it's a very
(17:35):
important skill set to learn.
But it's also this alchemical,magical mystery that is so
potent and so powerful and ifyou really allow it to be what
it wants to be, I think dramaticchange, dramatic breakthroughs,
connection can happen.
And for me that kind ofrealization came from Alfred and
(18:00):
just his courage and bravery tosay something that could have
been very off-putting ordifficult or triggering for
people, but it really justshowed his humanness, which is
why we share and tell stories.
Max Chopovsky (18:17):
That was incredible.
Thank you for sharing that.
One of my favorite parts aboutthat is it was very meta.
It was a story about stories.
I would expect no less of you.
One of the things that I feellike it demonstrated is the
power of listening when peoplemight not open up unless they
(18:43):
feel like they're really beingheard.
I think that's prettyunderrated.
I mean, the conversations thatI have with guests on the show
is why should we do the show?
One of the reasons I give themis because I don't know how
often this happens to you, butyou will actually feel like
(19:04):
you're being heard.
I think that's sadly.
That's underrated.
It doesn't happen as often aswe like.
I want to ask you what ended uphappening to Alfred.
Did he end up graduating,leaving the program?
What was his story arc?
Terence Mickey (19:24):
Yeah, he graduated and left the program.
He actually told that story afew times in other venues.
That often happens as people ina very off-field workshop.
That's not about performance,they have no interest in
performing, they'll get the bugand just have this story.
Life where this is one of thestories they'll tell.
(19:44):
He became somebody that sharedthat as a teaching and gave him
a sense that he could dosomething with a very tragic and
dark part of his life thatcould help other people.
Max Chopovsky (20:00):
It's such an interesting comment that he made
that the war was so abstract tohim when he was flying over and
dropping bombs, and yet it wentfrom that to probably as
personal as it could get, whichis hand-to-hand combat, and what
an interesting story arc.
In fact, I feel like there areso many story arcs within the
(20:22):
story that you told.
There's the story arc of Alfredfrom telling this, from
lobbying you to be able to tellthis story, about the ex-wife in
the pipe, and the story arc ofthe woman at the Vanguard
meeting of going up and tellingher story.
(20:43):
And the story arc of the CEO,the story arc of the meeting
with the guy from 9-11 becausenobody had bothered to ask him.
But I think what's reallyinteresting is your story arc
because all of those, especiallyAlfred, they informed your
(21:03):
trajectory as it relates to howyou perceive storytelling.
I mean, with Alfred, the tensionis kind of your loss of control
, because it was such a tenuoussituation where, hey, I don't
know what he's going to tell.
I mean, this guy's got a trackrecord of being out there with
(21:24):
the kind of story he wants totell, but you leaned into that.
You were like, okay, I'm goingto go with it.
So there's some tension andthen, as you realized hey, you
know what, sometimes I have togive up control you applied that
to the corporate gig, to prettypositive results, and so I just
(21:53):
think that that's fascinatingwhat stories do and you know,
this is at the end of the day.
They serve to connect us, toreveal our collective humanity,
and what I find so fascinatingis if you feel like somebody is
(22:16):
listening, it helps you to openup and to be more vulnerable.
Right, but the very last partof your story about the guy that
led his floor to safety on 9-11flips that paradigm on its head
and says actually, sometimes,if you go out on a limb and you
(22:42):
are vulnerable before people arelistening, you can transform
the room and then they startlistening.
Terence Mickey (22:50):
You know, I think listening, you know
there's a lot about storytellingand how to tell a story and how
to have these certain pointsand organize, but the real way
to become truly good atstorytelling is just to listen
to other people Like you'lllearn so much from what, where
people go, what they share.
(23:11):
And I think you know, in thatinstance, with the 9-11 hero, he
knew that someone was listening.
You know, maybe the whole roomwas a little bit off, but he
knew that there was at least oneperson that was going to get it
and it was an opportunity toshare it.
I think you know what you saidabout opportunity for your
guests to come on and be heard.
(23:32):
Since it is so rare, even ifit's just one person, we're kind
of going to go for it becausethere's so much that we in our
daily lives don't get to shareor don't really kind of talk
about.
So when there is theopportunity there, I feel like
anyone will go for it because itis rare.
And so, as somebody who'strying to help people tell their
(23:52):
stories, you know listening isthe best way to get them to
really yeah feel safe andcourageous enough to go to that
place, and then it transforms,yeah, everybody who hears it and
everybody around them.
Max Chopovsky (24:06):
What do you find is the biggest obstacle to
getting people to open up and bevulnerable?
Terence Mickey (24:11):
Fear.
I mean, how is this going toland?
How are people going to thinkof me in a corporate environment
?
I mean, you think about it.
You got to work with thesepeople.
These people are probably incompetition with you.
There's so much that's fraughtthere and I think that the
unknown like I've never donethis before and how am I going
to do it?
On the one hand, you're tryingto learn something that's
(24:33):
difficult.
Two, what's at the heart of itis something that makes you
vulnerable.
And three, you're around peoplewho you don't want to judge you
.
I mean, there's so many.
There's really, when I thinkabout it, there's so many
reasons not to go and share.
And coming into an organizationand trying to do that is kind
(24:54):
of like a Herculean task.
I think what helps me not getcaught up in that is I know what
the end result will be Like.
I know in so many hours, thisgroup will all be connected to
one another and the room willchange and that kind of gives me
a confidence.
But when you look at it, on itssurface there's a lot to kind
of to make people not want toshare and not want to tell their
(25:16):
story.
Max Chopovsky (25:18):
Like when you think about in corporate
environments.
They do these ice breakers oh,tell us something, tell us your
favorite TV show or yourfavorite dish and everybody just
kind of thinks like, oh, that'skind of cheesy.
They kind of look at each otherlike, oh, here we go again with
this shit.
But what's interesting is, oncethey do it, they I mean, it's
(25:39):
happened to me before, I used tobe in the corporate environment
you start talking so much topeople at your table after you
find something in common withthem that the facilitator has
trouble getting people to stoptalking and move on to the next
exercise.
You know, I guess I just wonderwhy people are so fearful of
being judged, fearful of maybebeing ostracized or not accepted
(26:03):
, that they feel like theirexperience is so uniquely theirs
and that they have so little incommon with the people around
them that they don't want toshare.
And once they end up sharing,then they realize, hey, we have
so much more in common than wethought and it's just mind
blowing to me that I mean, I getit.
People are afraid of beingjudged, they're afraid of
(26:25):
failure, they're afraid of beingleft out, but at the end of the
day we realize like we havemore in common than we think.
It's a pretty romanticized wayof looking at it, but I also
think there's a lot to that,because the alternative to that
is isolation.
Terence Mickey (26:40):
Yeah, I mean the irony is that you're starting
off from a place of isolationbecause you're thinking this has
only happened to me and it'sI'm alone with it.
So you're already in a place oflike, okay, I don't want to
share this because this is justmy thing, but so that's the
irony is, you're alreadystarting from isolation but
you're afraid of isolation.
But chances are, if you do sharesomething you'll, like you said
(27:03):
, you'll see that you have waymore in common with the person
next to you than you could haveimagined, because and I think
you know, for Alfred's story forme helped me.
You know I had a lot of tragedyin my family and a lot of things
that I didn't bring into mystorytelling, like my uncle
committed suicide and thingsthat were very, yeah, personal
(27:25):
and dark, and that too, kind ofbroke open my own storytelling
to just be more vulnerable withthings that I would conceive of
us off limits.
And the irony was that thosethings that I shared got the
most response, because ifanybody's had, like, a tragedy
like that in their family, theydon't hear that stuff that often
(27:45):
.
So if somebody is talking aboutit it's kind of magnetic
because, okay, now we canfinally discuss that thing and
I'm a firm believer in there's aright place and a right time.
But I think when the context isright to share something that
is very personal and could beseen as something very difficult
and tragic, it just helpspeople around you to not feel as
(28:09):
isolated and as alone.
Max Chopovsky (28:13):
Was this your uncle that was in the sanitation
business and then opened hisown and then it got shut down
after six months?
Was that him?
Terence Mickey (28:20):
No, that's Jimmy .
Jimmy's still alive and kicking.
No, my mother is one of 10, soI have many uncles.
So it was that uncle's brother,tom.
Okay, yeah.
Max Chopovsky (28:32):
So I used to have a video production company and
we would do a lot of corporatework and one time we flew to New
York to do a video for a bigfinancial services company and
we were at their headquartersand we were doing a series of
(28:52):
interviews with high-levelexecutives about this workshop
that they did that centered onevaluating their childhood
experiences and understandinghow the trauma from those
experiences may make themsusceptible to predisposed
notions and how it impacts theirdecision-making.
(29:15):
I mean, it was a really, reallyraw and emotional workshop and
we were interviewing theexecutives that went through
that workshop and as theinterviewer I would pride myself
on eliciting tears out of mysubjects, because that meant
(29:36):
that the content was real, raw,emotional, authentic, vulnerable
.
I didn't unnecessarily pushthem, but if I could coax
certain things out of them itwould make me feel like it was a
more powerful narrative.
And there was a seniorexecutive that I was
(29:58):
interviewing and in a financialservices company like Vanguard,
like what you talked about,everybody sort of buttoned up
right and whether they're in aroom in front of their
colleagues or whether they're inan interview where there's
people they don't know peoplefrom our video production
company, maybe a couple ofcolleagues.
(30:18):
They're still going to bepretty buttoned up, but I think
it was pretty fertile ground,considering the subject matter
right.
And so this woman wasincredibly intelligent,
articulate, just very puttogether.
And then we started getting intothis you know the workshop and
(30:40):
she just starts talking abouthow, for the longest time, she
felt like she wasn't enough,like she was inadequate, and how
that impacted her interactionswith her colleagues and how much
time she feels she lost as aresult of not being authentic,
(31:01):
not being vulnerable, how thatimpacted her family life and how
she came home, stressed to herkids and couldn't be a great mom
and how that sort ofperpetuated this notion that she
wasn't enough.
And she goes into how thisworkshop made her feel like she
is enough.
And she's telling me this andshe starts crying on camera and
she's like it made me feel likeI'm good enough, that I'm enough
(31:23):
and like I'm about to starttearing up, right, I mean I look
around me like the producer iscrying and I'm just like this is
gold, like this is incredible,but not for the sake of sort of
showing this off and saying, hey, I'm a good interviewer, I
elicited this from her.
It was gold from theperspective of.
She is giving one of the mostauthentic, beautiful interviews
(31:47):
that I've ever been able to have, and my urge right after this
thing is to walk up to her andgive her a huge hug and be like
I know exactly how you feel.
I've felt inadequate so manytimes in my life and I'm so glad
that you shared that.
And I gave her a hug afterwardsand I just said, hey, thank you
(32:10):
so much for sharing that, but Ifelt so much more connected to
her, even though I'm literallyjust the guy that's behind the
camera, just there to get thestory right.
So we wrap up the filming and Iimmediately am like this is
only going to be a five minutedeliverable.
At best she is going to have,you know, top billing for this
(32:31):
thing.
Like I want her on the preview,I want her as the sort of apex
of this video.
I get an email from her thatnight and she says hey, I just
wanted to thank you for thewonderful interview and I also
wanted to ask you not to use thepart where I'm crying, and I
was like I completely understandyour wish is my command.
(32:56):
I will not do that if you don'twant me to, because that video
was going to be screened infront of like 5,600 people, and
after I sent that email I waslike man, I'm a little
disappointed, not just in thefact that the video isn't going
to be as powerful without her,but also in the fact that
perhaps the story arc is stillincomplete, right?
(33:20):
Perhaps she still feels deepdown as if she can't expose that
part of herself to hercolleagues because they'll judge
her, they won't accept her orwhatever.
And so I was a little sadbecause I feel like it's such a
missed opportunity, the way thatshe was able to connect with
everyone in our small room whenwe were doing the interview.
She could connect with so manyother people, so many moms who
feel like they can't balance itall, or so many executives who
(33:42):
feel like they always havesomething to prove, and so I was
a little sad about that.
But I was happy that in thatmoment, in that one sort of
fleeting moment, she was able tocompletely let it go and just
say here's who I am as a person.
It was really magical.
Terence Mickey (34:01):
Yeah, that's a great story.
I think that, for me, pointsout the process.
She's so fresh with thatemotion and that realization
that she had that moment withyou and you could create that
moment for her.
But it's not necessarily thatshe's ready to share that
outside of that room.
That's the strange thing abouthaving a camera and recorder and
(34:24):
it's such an intimateexperience because you're in a
small room, especially themicrophone, there's no thing
kind of pointed at you andyou're revealing things that you
think you're just telling oneperson, but if it's going to be
broadcast you're tellingthousands of people and I think
for people it's a process to getto that point.
For her, maybe a year later shedid feel comfortable when she's
(34:48):
kind of understood the emotionand totally processed it for
herself.
That's the thing that we oftensay in storytelling is, you
don't want to be telling a storytoo soon after an experience
because it's so fresh and so rawthat you don't have the
distance you want and sometimesyou may get a vulnerability
hangover because it's still inyou.
(35:11):
But I think it's important tohave those moments because for
her, having that experience withyou lets her know how she feels
and how important it is andhopefully she'll get to that
point where it's like okay, nowI can share this beyond and
change people's perspectivesbecause what she expressed who
doesn't feel that?
I don't know anyone thatdoesn't feel like they're not
(35:34):
enough or has that negativechatter in their head, and
that's why it's important tokind of share those stories to
realize we're all on the samepage.
Max Chopovsky (35:43):
It really is.
It really is.
So let's talk about the storythat you told.
What is the moral of that story?
Terence Mickey (35:51):
I think there's a few morals.
For me personally, it's toremember the storytelling is
both of the heart and the mindand not just kind of one solo
version, and just the power oflistening.
How listening can elicit thingsfrom people and change people,
and how that can kind of changeeveryone who's in the room with
(36:11):
you.
Max Chopovsky (36:15):
And I agree with that, because you have to sort
of understand structure andstory arc and narrative.
But at the end of the day,that's nothing but a foundation,
it's nothing but a guide.
You really can only connectwith people through emotion, and
so that's where the heart comesin.
So, yeah, it really is an artform.
(36:36):
Now, you obviously have heard aton of stories, you've told a
ton of stories.
Why did you select this one?
Terence Mickey (36:46):
I've never told that story before and I like the
fact that it was meta becauseit was a kind of lesson for me
and my own storytelling journeyof what are we doing, why are we
doing it, and so it was kind ofa reckoning for me that I
thought people would appreciate,and what do you think makes the
story so powerful?
(37:08):
I think in all those instancesof kind of Alfred, the woman of
Vanguard and the gentleman fromwith the 9-11 story is, here are
all people that have beencarrying around this incredible
burden that they haven't sharedwith anybody else, and here's
this occasion where they're allable to kind of finally unburden
(37:29):
that or kind of reveal thatstory and kind of return.
Like you know, I think when weare kind of holding something in
ourselves, you can kind of feelremoved and distant from people
.
I mean that woman in your story.
She felt like she couldn't beauthentic at work, she couldn't
really connect with peoplebecause she was holding onto the
script in her mind of that.
(37:50):
She's not good enough.
I think we all do that withdifferent parts of ourselves.
So when you can kind ofremember that for yourself and
become a member again in thegroup and kind of return to the
tribe, it's such a potent andsuch a transformative moment.
So I think that's what for me,like those three people in that
(38:13):
story, all have that sameexperience that we all long for.
So seeing it happen and seeingpeople kind of embrace them is
such a reassuring, positiveoutcome.
Max Chopovsky (38:27):
I feel like it's kind of a spectrum from being a
robot and sharing nothing tojust being a puddle of drama
that just overshares everything.
So I guess I wonder how do youknow when you're maybe going too
(38:50):
far on the sharing side ofthings?
Because I do feel like thereprobably is at some point.
You probably get into theterritory of oversharing or
complaining too much or whatever.
Right, I feel like there's apoint where you can go too far.
So how do you know when you'reapproaching that territory?
Terence Mickey (39:10):
I think you always have to have the audience
in mind.
It's not really for you, eventhough you're doing it and
you're going to have anexperience.
You are in front of an audienceand I think if you care about
that audience and think about,okay, what can they either get
from this, or how will they bemoved by this, or what will they
get from it, then you're in asafe zone because it's not about
(39:31):
your ego and not about I haveto get this off my chest because
this happened to me.
That's a dangerous territorybecause you're going to share
stuff that maybe doesn'tresonate with an audience and is
stuff that you haven't evenprocessed yet.
I think, if you remember, okay,I care about the person who's
going to hear this.
What do they need to hear?
How can it help them or impactthem or entertain them?
(39:54):
Then you're in a place whereyou're not going to go too far,
where you're just revealing yourguts.
Max Chopovsky (40:02):
You avoid the therapy session.
Terence Mickey (40:04):
Yeah, like you're a host.
You're taking someone on ajourney.
You want to be a really goodguide and host and not let them
get too scared or feel too lost.
You're just comfortable ingetting them through that
journey.
Max Chopovsky (40:22):
Now, memory is obviously a fickle thing, as you
know and have researched manytimes, and stories change from
telling to telling.
You even mentioned how you'reamazed how people change stories
based on their recollection ofthe story.
The further removed from astory we are, the more leeway we
take, the more creativeliberties and or maybe forced
(40:45):
deviations from the originalstory we take.
Sometimes I feel like thosedeviations actually make the
story better, even if lesstruthful.
You add additional drama to itthat wasn't a part of the
original story and it becomesalmost mythological.
I wonder with this story Idon't know how long ago this was
(41:10):
, but have you tweaked it overtime?
Because sometimes we can tweakit based on memory, based on the
accuracy of our recollections.
Sometimes we tweak it based onaudience input and maybe trial
and error around.
What lands best.
Should we eliminate unnecessarydetails?
Have you tweaked this storyover time?
Terence Mickey (41:33):
Since I haven't told it before.
I didn't tweak it, but I havetold the Alfred story before,
just as a separate thing, and itwas interesting to go beyond
Alfred and talk about how itchanged me, Because I think when
I told it in the past it wasjust here was this incredible
guy and this is the experiencehe had and how amazing that was.
(41:54):
But in thinking about it as astory to tell you, I was really
thinking about okay, how didthat change?
What was my relationship toAlfred and how did it change me,
how it forced me to think aboutthat time, think about that
weird bifurcated life I had andthen try to find meaning.
I think that's the thing thatwe're meaning making machines as
(42:16):
storytellers.
That can sometimes be veryhelpful and also sometimes very
dangerous, because we willjigger certain things and change
certain things because we wantit to mean something.
I think that's why it'simportant to have perspective
and why stories change.
Maybe the meaning when you're20 is totally different when
you're 40 or 50.
Max Chopovsky (42:39):
Let me tweak the question then.
Do you think that if you tellthe story again, you will tweak
it the next time you tell it,and if so, what would you change
?
Terence Mickey (42:49):
That's a great question.
I'm a tweaker, so I like totinker and change things and I
definitely will change thingswith an audience a different
audience For me.
I'm very conscious of someone'slistening and what they're
experiencing.
My tweaking often happens inthe moment.
If there's something that'sreally engaging them, then I'll
(43:11):
add a few more details and go alittle deeper into that, just to
give them that gift.
If it's something they'rerepulsed or recoiled by, then
I'll try to do a side step.
I often tweak in the moment,but if I were to think about
yeah, I don't know how I tweakedthat story.
What surprised me in thistelling was I usually get very
(43:32):
choked up in recounting Alfred'sstory because he's still very.
It's like yesterday he wentinto such a state of being an
18-year-old boy, even thoughhe's a grown man, that it just
moved me to no end.
I was surprised that I held ittogether in recounting his story
Based on my last story.
Max Chopovsky (43:53):
I think you can tell that I'm a little
disappointed that you held ittogether.
Terence Mickey (44:00):
I know I didn't give you good tape.
Max Chopovsky (44:03):
No, listen, I think the story was fantastic,
as I think about what resonatedwith me and if I were to tell
that story I would make it evenmore visceral when Alfred had to
kill the two kids that werebasically younger than him,
which basically you're tellingme would make him 17 years old.
The way he slit them frombottom to top with a knife.
(44:27):
That is such a memorable,visual, horrific image of war
that it really cements hisstatement that this made it so
much more real to me because Iwent literally from the
30,000-foot level down to groundlevel.
When you talk about theVanguard story and how she said
(44:48):
that she was broke, the CEO'sstory arc is evidenced by his
facial expressions and theimpact the story had on him.
For the 9-11 story, it's almostlike again if I were telling a
story.
I can almost, because I loveeliciting emotion in the
listeners, even if it means Ihave to fudge a couple of
(45:12):
non-material facts but adddetails that make it even more
real for them.
It's like the guy's tellingthis story and I look around the
room and I realize thateverybody who was so stoic just
minutes before you could tellthat they at once started sort
of tearing up and also literallycouldn't wait to get up and go
(45:36):
give him a hug or shake his handor whatever.
The emotional part of it, right?
I just think that is.
Those are the stories that Iremember most, because you paint
your own visual picture of thatnarrative and you add those
emotional details.
What do you think great storieshave in common?
Terence Mickey (45:58):
I think great stories have compelling
characters, like characters thathave stakes, high stakes.
I think stakes are critical.
And then transformation.
I think when you can actuallysee someone change in a story,
that's the goal.
I mean, that's why we kind ofcome back to stories and it's
very hard to do.
I mean it's really, it's reallydifficult when it's your own
(46:21):
story, when it's fiction, it'sjust a really difficult.
Max Chopovsky (46:25):
But when you do it, that's the alchemical magic
it's just incredible to bewitness to that Totally, which
means that either if thetransformation happens over a
short period of time, thatsomething's been leading up to
that singular moment oftransformation, or you have to
expand the time horizon, becausepeople usually don't change in
(46:46):
a moment, so suddenly you haveto zoom out and the time horizon
has to be longer so you candocument that character arc
right.
Terence Mickey (46:53):
Yeah, and usually the stakes kind of let
you know how big of a story it'sgoing to be.
If the stakes are not that high, the attention is kind of only
limited.
But if the stakes are reallyhigh, then you can tease that
out for as long as you want.
Totally.
Max Chopovsky (47:08):
Now you're what I would call what I think many
people would call a professionalstoryteller.
How do you use storytelling inyour personal life?
Terence Mickey (47:18):
For me I often, you know, to connect with
friends.
For me I love recounting, maybe, trials and tribulations in a
humorous way to just both kindof get something off my chest of
like this really was difficultand sucked, and also just making
someone else laugh andconnecting with them so that
they can hear my trials andtribulations without being
(47:41):
traumatized themselves.
But it just as a way to deeplyconnect with people and I love
hearing people's stories.
Like I'll have a very kind ofhigh attention span for people
that want to share what they'vebeen going through.
Yeah, so I think primarily justas a way to connect with people
in my personal life and it'sjust fun.
(48:03):
I can't get enough of them.
Like I just I enjoy it.
Max Chopovsky (48:07):
Like tell me more .
So let's talk about books for asecond.
I'm sure you've read your fairshare of some really captivating
works.
So what are you know one or twoof your books that just nail
storytelling.
Terence Mickey (48:22):
I love George Saunders.
A Swim and a Pond in the Rain.
It's a great craft book aboutshort stories and stories in
general.
He is such an incrediblegenerous teacher and so astute
that that's one of my favoritesI love it.
Max Chopovsky (48:41):
I love it.
Well, last question for you,terrence If you could say one
thing to your 20 year old self,what would it be?
Terence Mickey (48:55):
Be kinder to yourself.
Max Chopovsky (48:57):
Yeah, I would assume that your 20 year old
self probably would not listento that advice.
Terence Mickey (49:03):
Yes, yes, I think you're right.
I think you're right.
My 20 year old self was verystubborn.
Max Chopovsky (49:09):
I think most 20 year olds are pretty stubborn.
I was and I was, still am, butI was a lot more stubbornly
harder myself.
So it's good advice, but Ithink, as I've said before, I
think that we have to go throughthat time to reach what
hopefully is, you know, aglimmer of wisdom in our later
(49:31):
years.
But we wouldn't be able to gethere without having experienced
there.
Terence Mickey (49:38):
Yeah, and all those hiccups and mistakes,
those are our stories.
I mean all that stubborn, youknow snis than what it led to.
That gives us the material towork with.
Max Chopovsky (49:50):
Yeah, you have to have a character arc, right.
Well, that does it.
Terrence Mickey, master,storyteller and listener and
curator, thank you for being onthe show.
Terence Mickey (50:06):
Thank you, such a pleasure.
Thank you very much.
Max Chopovsky (50:09):
Of course, for show notes and more, head over
to MossPodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was more of the story.
I'm Max Tropowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
We'll see you next time.
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