February 22, 2024 • 38 mins
Growing up in 1970s South Brooklyn (now Carol Gardens), Scott was surrounded by the mob. Wiseguys named Fat Freddie and Big Red drank their espressos and smoked their cigars at the social clubs on the corner. It was idyllic in its own way and he was safe as long as he didn't stray too far.
His uncle Frankie, a tough guy's tough guy, was like a father to Scott. Later in life, Frankie had a quadruple bypass surgery and Scott came to visit. Frankie was frail and almost unrecognizable.
As Scott stood there taking it in, Frankie beckoned him over to the bed and whispered in his ear words that Scott would never forget.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Max Chopovsky (00:02):
This is Moral of the Story interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, max Tropowski.
Today's guest is Scott Donaton,creative guru, self-proclaimed
stand-up philosopher, semi-proeditor of FriendsBio's, maker of
movements and asker of poignantquestions.
Raised in Brooklyn, scottstudied journalism at St John's
(00:24):
University, serving as theeditor-in-chief of the Torch,
the school's student newspaper.
Scott stormed Madison Avenue in1996, kicking down the door at
advertising age, where he madehis way up the ranks from
reporter to editor-in-chief,serving in the role for over 10
years.
After grabbing readers by theeyeballs as the publisher of
Entertainment Weekly, scottreturned to Madison Avenue as
(00:46):
the chief content officer ofIPG's UM global media network.
While at UM, scott was awardedthe Cann Entertainment Lion for
original comedy series AlwaysOpen, produced for Denny's with
Jason Bateman and Will Arnett.
With trophy firmly in hand,scott made the move to Digitast
North America as global chiefcreative and content officer,
(01:06):
heading the agency's connectedcreative practice and launching
Digitast Studios to createlong-form content for brands
like American Express, lego,travelers and Lenovo.
After checking East Coastdomination off his bucket list,
scott moved the party to SantaMonica as the SVP and head of
marketing at Hulu, where he notonly drove growth from 30
million to 48 million paidsubscribers, he founded Internal
(01:29):
Agency Greenhouse, pioneeredHulu's branded entertainment
unit, created EmmyAward-nominated content and
played a key role in theintegration of Hulu into Disney
In 2023,.
Scott was elected to NPR'sboard of directors, overseeing
performance, governance policiesand strategic direction, and
likely helping ensure that thestorytelling and integrity combo
(01:49):
remains strong to quite strongat the esteemed brand.
In addition to Cannes, scott'swork for brands like Coca-Cola,
bmw, sony and L'Oreal has beenrecognized by the producers
Guild of America, clio's DNADand London International
Advertising Awards.
So the stand-up philosophers inthe house and on the mic, scott
, welcome to the show.
Scott Donaton (02:10):
Thank you, Max.
That was fantastic.
You tell my career story muchbetter than I do.
I think I can take youeverywhere or recording of that
everywhere with me from now on.
Max Chopovsky (02:19):
Happy to come with you, man.
I love me.
A good adventure.
So you are here to tell us astory.
Is there anything we need toknow before we get started?
Do you want to set the stage?
Scott Donaton (02:32):
No, I can set the stage inside the story itself,
I think.
So it's probably not a surprisefor someone of my age and
background to tell you thatGodfather, part Two, in
particular Goodfellas in a BronxTale, are among my favorite
movies.
Now, what might be moresurprising is to know that for
me those are not fictionalstories.
(02:54):
They're snapshots of mychildhood and an important part
of who I am today.
And in fact, goodfellas was nota work of fiction after all, it
was actually based on the bookWise Guy.
Wise Guy is by Nick Pelleggi,who went to the same high school
in Brooklyn that I did, a bitbefore me, if you know Nick's
age, but he's obviously a legend.
So I literally grew up in whatis now called Carroll Gardens.
(03:17):
At the time was called SouthBrooklyn and when my mother grew
up there was considered part ofRed Hook second generation
Italian neighborhood for themost part, and a lot of first
generation immigrants as well.
Very much a mafia controlled.
If there is such a thing, theyapparently isn't, but if there
is one, they very muchcontrolled.
The neighborhood I grew up inand I'm talking social clubs on
(03:40):
the corner where guys namedPunchy and Fat Freddy and Big
Red hung out all the time withtheir espresso and playing cards
and smoking cigars and goldchains and tattoos, and these
were the people that ran theneighborhood and you just knew
that and it was a fact ofeveryday life.
And the deli on the cornerwould sell sweaters in the back.
(04:01):
The guy who ran it would say infront of my mother, anna, I got
some sweaters that fell off atruck $5 in the back, I'll get
some for the kids.
This was the truth and I'll saythat, while I ultimately
obviously didn't face the issuethat some of the characters did
in Goodfellas and Bronx Tale inother words, I wasn't actually
invited into the mob in any wayand made other choices there was
(04:23):
definitely a period where thatwas a very romantic way of
living.
There was a very romanticizedview of the neighborhood.
By the way, I grew up beingtold how safe I was in my
neighborhood.
Of course, I realized later onthat was because of the color of
my skin and the fact that I wasone of them a very tribal
neighborhood, and most of theneighborhoods in Brooklyn were.
At that time, I knew whichneighborhoods and streets I
(04:45):
couldn't cross over into, butthese guys seemed really cool.
They literally had thecigarette packs rolled up in
their t-shirts, and the tattoosand the gold chains and
swaggered around theneighborhood.
And it took me quite a while,and without much putting
judgment into this, to realizethat these were not people I
wanted to emulate or base a lifeoff of.
(05:07):
But my family itself was a veryblue collar one, a lot of cops
and firefighters and longshoremen.
We had a brownstone in thatneighborhood that had probably
had about 80 cousins and secondcousins and third cousins.
Of course they were all justcousins to Italians who lived
within a five block radius, andon Christmas Eve we would all
gather in the same brownstonethat my grandmother lived in and
(05:28):
there'd be 80 or so peoplerunning up and down across four
floors all night long doing thefeast of the seven fishes, my
Italian great grandmother, whosigned her name with an X and
couldn't read or speak English,but when I'd be outside in the
streets playing stickball orrunning bases or Ringolivio was
the name of a game that weplayed on the streets of
Brooklyn the ice cream truckwould come and my great
(05:51):
grandmother would wrap on thewindow the third floor window of
the brownstone, until I paidattention to her, whether I
wanted to or not, and then rollup the window with lots of paint
flakes falling to the streetand toss down a crumpled dollar
bill which meant go get me avanilla cone with rainbow
sprinkles, and then I'd have tocarry her cone in mine up the
steps dripping down my arm.
(06:11):
Scotso, she called me becauseshe didn't like that.
My mother gave me an Italianlast name, and this was just
really an amazing way to grow upin so many ways, and while
there are so many things aboutit today that I can see that are
really flawed, my mother sat onthe brownstone, stooped every
night with her cup of coffee andwe all played late into the
night while our mother'sgossiped over the walls and the
(06:33):
wise guys played cards on thecorner, and some of this comes
down to me.
I had an uncle, frankie, who wasa longshoreman and he was like
a father to me and he was verymuch a kid of the streets and
covered in tattoos.
He didn't want to be on thewrong side of his temper and he
was the tough guy and he showedme a view of masculinity.
(06:54):
And when he was a little bitolder he had a quadruple bypass
and if you've ever seen somebodyin a hospital after that
procedure.
They don't look good.
So I went to the hospital tovisit Frankie and he was very
thin and frail looking tubescoming out of everywhere.
Really terrible to see him thisway and I swear this actually
(07:15):
happened.
It sounds like a scene from amovie, but he beckoned me over
to the bed and I got over and hehad me leaned down so they
could whisper something in myear and I leaned down and
waiting for a word of wisdomfrom Uncle Frankie and what he
said to me was I could stillkick your ass.
So this is the world that Igrew up in and this is the thing
(07:38):
that I think people most loveabout me today.
I will say the Brooklyn accent.
Some people hear it in traceform still, you know.
But if you want me to do thewhole interview like this from
the from here forward, I couldjust kind of bring it out and we
could do it the rest of the day, all day long.
When I go back and visit myfamily at Christmas, I'll find
myself I'll go to the bagelstore and I'll be like yo, chief
, give me, treat them everythingbagels.
(07:59):
And I'm like who was that?
What's going on in there?
That was Scott.
You got a not wise guy wise guywith you today.
Max Chopovsky (08:08):
That's amazing, the way that you painted the
picture of that block, with thewise guys playing cards on the
corner and the moms gossipingand drinking coffee while the
kids played into the night.
It's such a vivid picture andthat's probably why you remember
it so vividly that when youtell that story, it's such a
(08:28):
time-wist neighborhood too,because I was there a few weeks
ago and it's been completelygentrified now.
Scott Donaton (08:34):
There's still traces of Italian there.
There's actually a couple ofbakeries and restaurants that
were there since I was a kid,but the streets haven't changed.
The brownstones have beenupdated because they were
crumbling, but it's really abeautiful tree-lined
neighborhood that retains asmuch of that character today as
it always did, and I thinkthat's the beautiful thing about
Brooklyn.
Max Chopovsky (08:54):
I think it's such a joy to grow up there, because
it really is a special place itreally is and, by the way, I
could tell the Brooklyn accent,because the dead giveaway is the
Rs sound like Vs and it's aBrooklyn.
That's immediately noticeable.
Scott Donaton (09:13):
Yeah, I like to think it's gone.
I never took conscious steps totake it out, but I think I,
just as I got exposed to more ofthe world and more people and
moved outside the limits of theneighborhood, it mostly went
away.
It definitely comes out whenI'm angry or excited, but it
does come out when I'm around myfamily in ways that scare me
sometimes as well.
Max Chopovsky (09:33):
Totally, yeah.
I mean, I think that when yougo back to where you came from,
whatever you tried to repress orsuppress in some way, it just
bubbles back to the surface.
Like if I go back to Kentuckyto see my family, there are
times when I notice a veryslight, vague Southern accent.
(09:58):
I'm like, oh my God, who isthat person?
I haven't talked to that personin a while.
Scott Donaton (10:03):
I'm still friends with four or five guys I went
to high school with and we havevery different lives in a lot of
ways today.
Some of them still live in thesame neighborhood, but we get
together about once a year fordinner and, to your point, like
you can't be anyone but yourselfwith those people.
They don't care what you'vedone since then, they don't care
who you think you are now, likeyou are the same person they
(10:25):
grew up with and they will takeno bullshit from you.
Max Chopovsky (10:28):
Totally.
Now let me ask you this asyou're walking into this
hospital room and Frankie islaying in the bed, do you have
any idea about what he's aboutto say?
Like, do you feel like it'sgoing to be some timeless wisdom
?
Are you imagining that somewords that you can't repeat will
(10:48):
come out of his mouth, likewhere's your head at when this
is happening?
Scott Donaton (10:51):
First of all, it was really hard walking into
that room because he was one ofthe most vibrant people I knew
and, by the way, he came backfrom that surgery.
He's since passed but died.
I hate the word passed, sorry,but I was really worried at that
point.
I didn't see that he was goingto survive what was happening
here and he really was like afather.
(11:12):
I had a father, who's also died, but Frankie became a real kind
of second father to me in a lotof ways and again showed me a
very different view ofmasculinity than my father, and
not one that I emulated,necessarily, but one that I saw
up close through him.
But he had this kind of fierceItalian love and even when I was
getting married he called wifeto be over at a dinner one night
(11:36):
and sat aside with her andlater on she told me that he
basically said if you break hisheart, you're going to have to
answer to me.
That's my son over there, that'smy son.
So I really thought he probablywould just say something like
you know you're my son and Iknow how much I love you.
And the fact that he said likeit's still kick your ass.
He actually just said I stillkick your ass.
(11:57):
He didn't say could.
I was clean, I was making thesentence a little more.
It was kind of brilliant socharacter when it came out that
I was like what else could hehave said to me in that moment?
He did not want me to.
He probably saw somewhere in myface which is not something you
want to show to people in thatplace, the concern about seeing
(12:18):
him like that, and I think hedid not ever till the end to
want to be viewed as anythingless than than the fierce, tough
guy he always was.
Max Chopovsky (12:26):
Do you think that he figured those were going to
be his sort of last words to you?
Scott Donaton (12:31):
Maybe, maybe, although I don't know if he
would have admitted to himselfthat he was ever going to die.
Max Chopovsky (12:37):
Yeah, totally.
You mentioned that he gave youa different perspective on
masculinity than your dad did.
How did the two perspectivescompare?
Scott Donaton (12:48):
My father was much more God.
It's weird, I'll just.
The first word that comes to mymind is timid.
There are people who know him.
He's a big guy and he could bea loud guy sometimes but he
wasn't forceful, and he with hissecond wife in particular.
And I realized as I got older tonot to make this into a therapy
session but that I had kind ofin some ways made him a little
(13:11):
bit, even cartoonishly, theopposite of Frankie, but it felt
like a lot of times.
You know, his ex-wife wasreally the one who ran things
and my father went along withthem and didn't push back on a
lot of things.
He also he wasn't veryexpressive.
He didn't say I love you a lot.
He didn't want to have bigconversations about, even as I
got older, like the impact ofthe divorce on me or any of
(13:35):
those things were just nottopics he felt comfortable with
and Frankie was just veryexpressive, very, constantly
hugging, constantly touching,showing his love.
But he was also someone to beafraid of.
I used to think there was aperiod of time when I was
younger where I might have madea bit of noise chewing my food,
and there was not.
You know, there might have beenone or two times that I ended
(13:56):
up finding myself out of my seaton the floor after doing that
too loudly for too long in frontof Frankie.
So you know, it was very much a.
You're the man of the family,you're in charge, you take care
of things.
You don't let anybody push youaround.
You get into a fight ifsomebody messes with you.
I had a short temper for in mytwenties not a violent one, but
(14:18):
a short one, and thankfully Idon't anymore.
It didn't serve me, but it wasinteresting.
I realized much later in lifehow much these, the contrast
between the two of them, left mefeeling like I had to figure
out on my own what it meant tobe a man and what kind of man I
wanted to be.
Max Chopovsky (14:36):
Because they were basically opposites of each
other.
Scott Donaton (14:39):
Yeah, for sure, there were some stories.
There was a story where therewas a bit of a conflict between
them, which was almost going tobe my story for today, but it
really came out of that and myfather was definitely afraid of
Frankie and probably should havebeen.
Max Chopovsky (14:55):
I believe that, based on how you're describing
them Now, you mentioned that youwere not in the mob Did they
ever approach you?
Did they ever try to recruityou, or what was that process
like?
How did that even happen, ifthey did?
Scott Donaton (15:10):
I don't recall anything on those lines.
I mean, there were definitelytimes when they'd see you go
into the deli and they'd be likeget me a bag of chips or a soda
.
We knew them.
Some of them were fathers of myfriends that I was playing with
on the block.
We were respectful of them.
They would occasionally justgive you money for no reason or
ask you to run a favor, andmaybe for some others that
(15:32):
becomes a gateway that if youpush against, it opens.
I don't recall that I everpushed against it, but it was
just a.
You know, it is funny when I dowatch a Bronx Tale in
particular like it's really hardnot to be like for so many
people.
I think this is like this worldthat didn't actually even
really exist and it so did inalmost exactly the way that it's
(15:54):
portrayed in those films thatI'm almost like how did I get
out?
Max Chopovsky (15:59):
and why so those are accurate, the way that
they're portrayed, done in thosefilms.
Scott Donaton (16:03):
Yeah, I mean Goodfellas and not the Godfather
.
Amazing a film as it is.
I don't think it's meant to begrounded in reality, but I think
Goodfellas and a Bronx Tale forme feel like really known
places and people.
Max Chopovsky (16:16):
It is kind of, you know you use the same word
that I was thinking of which isromanticized.
It does feel like, especiallyin hindsight, to be a really
romanticized time where thingswere difficult but also simpler
in a number of ways, you know,and now that the world has
gotten so much more complex andglobalized and technologically
(16:37):
advanced and all of thesedifferent things, there is, I
think, a part of some of us thatkind of feels this, maybe
yearning or sort of melancholytowards those times, you know,
when things were just, I guess,a little bit less complicated.
Scott Donaton (16:55):
Yeah, I think for sure, and I'm not nostalgic per
se, maybe I am.
I'm definitely a bit of aromantic around things, but I
still see, you know, brooklynthrough, you know, a lens.
That doesn't mean my view on itand some of the people and not
again, hopefully not in ajudgmental way Even some of the
(17:15):
kind of again I use the wordtribal, which maybe in some
settings would sound judgmental,but like there was something
about people who just kind ofthis is where I was born, this
is where I'm gonna die, this ismy family, they're what matters
to me.
Me moving cross-country waseven an older, later age in life
, like to my mother on somelevel.
You know I was leaving andthere are things about it that I
(17:37):
definitely came to appreciate,you know, and even the blue
collar aspect.
I think I was the second personin my family to go to college
and you know there were timeswhen I think sometimes even they
thought like, oh, mr, collegethe great.
But like these are people whoworked hard their entire lives
to care their families right,who there's so much that I
(17:57):
admire about it, even when I seeit through a clearer lens, that
definitely can rub away some ofthe romanticized view.
You know, some of these wiseguys were not good.
They were not good people right, and they didn't do good things
and there's no world in whichpretending otherwise makes sense
, but so justifying none of that.
(18:17):
But you know, there was a guyin the neighborhood who was only
a few years older than us, Ithink, and his name was Artie
Boy.
And you know, like Artie Boyhad these big colorful tattoos
of devils and again, he was theone you know always had the
cigarette pack rolled up.
It was hard not to think thatwas really cool.
A knife in his back pocket.
It was hard not to see that ascool when I was a kid and easier
(18:39):
to see it as not cool now.
But I still understand theattraction at the time.
I mean the fact that there havegrown men with names like Big
Red and Punchy and Fat Freddy.
You know, and this is real,it's kind of awesome.
Max Chopovsky (18:52):
It is kind of awesome.
Scott Donaton (18:53):
Yeah, it is kind of awesome.
Max Chopovsky (18:54):
To a storyteller yeah, so tell me this the story
that you told.
What is the moral of that story?
Scott Donaton (19:00):
It's funny.
I even not that I don't knowwhat Dord moral is, but knowing
the name of the podcast, I waslike what is the moral of the
story?
And I do think it's kind ofembrace who you are and where
you're from.
There was someone that Imentioned that I might share
this story, who was like do youwant people to know this about
you?
And there's another guy that Iknow in the.
He has his own ad agency.
(19:21):
He's done really well in lifeand he grew up in a very tough
family not in Brooklyn, verysimilar circumstances.
He grew up very poor.
I definitely we were strugglingfinancially when I grew up.
I mean, we had governmentcheese in the fridge and food
stamps and you know.
So I know what that's like.
And I think there are times whenI've met throughout my career
(19:42):
so many people who had muchdifferent upbringings.
And there are times where I've,you know, the temptation would
be that somehow this issomething that you should hide
about yourself.
I'm so proud of it because itis.
It played a huge role in theperson I am today and I think
it's like it's all part of yourstory and no matter what your
(20:03):
story is, and the more you tellyour story to more people, which
I'm sure, to some degree, iswhat drew you here, the more
you've realized how universal somany of our truths are and I
think, like never forget, likewhere you came from and how that
made you who you are today 100%.
Max Chopovsky (20:20):
We also, after we moved to America, we also grew
up on food stamps and we didn'treally have very much.
And I think that and again,this is just my theory I think
that what happens is people wantto downplay that because they
want to either assimilate or fitin, or they want, or they think
(20:42):
that that's a knock on them asa person.
You know and their characterand ultimately part of the
reason that some people thatstarted with nothing became
successful is because they hadtheir back against the wall and
they had to learn how to grindat a young age, right, and it's
not until we become older thatwe not just recognize that, but
(21:07):
we embrace it and it reallystarts to come out and we become
more proud of where we camefrom, because it had so much to
do with where we ultimately endup in life.
Scott Donaton (21:20):
And I wouldn't want it any other way.
I mean, to your point, I'vebeen working since I was 12.
It started with two.
I had two paper routes.
The New York Post was anafternoon newspaper then, so I
would deliver the daily news bybicycle before I went to school,
and then the New York Postafter I got out of school.
I worked stocking shelves in thegrocery store in the corner and
I drove a delivery truck when Igot a little older for a
(21:43):
butcher shop whose the horn onthe van played the Godfather
theme song and I used to startmy Saturday morning deliveries
and make sure that I blew thathorn on certain blocks, which
I'm sure there are still peoplethere who like that damn horn.
That woke me up every Saturdaymorning.
But it is all part of who youare and the high school I went
to.
If you know the TV show WelcomeBack Cotter I'm really showing
(22:06):
my age here now, but the highschool that's shown in all the
exterior shots for Welcome BackCotter is my high school and the
sweat hogs and all the thingsin there is John Travolta.
The show that made JohnTravolta were based on my high
school and that did feel likesomething almost to be ashamed
of for some years, and now it'ssomething I couldn't be prouder
of.
Max Chopovsky (22:24):
Totally.
I think it's only somethingthat we can appreciate when
we're older.
Right being able to embracethat is so important.
So you obviously have a ton ofstories that you've heard and
told why did you choose this one?
It was between this one andanother one you mentioned
earlier.
So what made this one went out?
Scott Donaton (22:45):
Yeah, there were three.
I mean that made the final cutand I think what I worried most
about with this one was thatit's not actually one story in
the way that some of the storiesthat I've heard from others
that you've interviewed is, andI was a little afraid that it
was painting a whole picture ofa childhood, as opposed to each
of the other stories were kindof much more particular moments
(23:06):
or days, but I think it'sbecause I felt this one, at the
end of the day, best representedme and who I am.
Max Chopovsky (23:15):
There are sometimes these singular moments
that just encompass an entireera right and in your mind, that
moment was just representativeof that entire picture that you
drew in the beginning of thestory.
Scott Donaton (23:32):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
If you want to know theheadline of one of my other
stories, I won't go deeperbecause one of the other truths
is it doesn't go much deeper andit's not that interesting at
the end of the day was I oncespent the night in a hotel room
with Bill Clinton?
Oh, that's amazing.
Yeah, but it's not as good astory as it seems.
I mean, it's not a bad story itwas the night that Hillary was
(23:57):
elected to the Senate.
I ended up at a celebrationparty in their hotel room.
Max Chopovsky (24:02):
I actually feel like the best way to tell that
story is just to leave it at theheadline, because I should have
.
Yes, people's imaginations justrun wild, so you've obviously
heard a ton of great stories.
What do good stories have incommon?
Scott Donaton (24:18):
They have to have some kind of tension and
conflict.
What's really interesting is,having spent a lot of my career
doing storytelling for and withbrands, it's amazing how
uncomfortable that makes brandsthat always want to present a
happy view of the world.
But I think one of the firstthings whenever I'm helping a
person or a brand the people whowork for that brand to figure
(24:39):
out what their story is.
There's three things there'skind of like with all love to
Simon Sinek to start with, whyis my favorite Ted talk of all
times?
I've told him that whenever Imeet him I fanboy out on him a
little bit and I repeat that tohim every time.
But it became a driving mantrais kind of know your why, which
maybe goes back to what I saidthat I think the moral of this
(25:01):
story is.
But the other two to me, thingsthat you have to have to have a
great story is you have to havea tension and a conflict.
You have to have a monster thatyou're slaying.
Again, when you talk tocompanies it's always
interesting.
You're like you say who's yourenemy and they go if they name
their competitors and you justgo no, no, no.
(25:21):
Mikey's enemy is the couchright, snickers, enemy is being
angry, right and like, and anygood story.
You need an enemy, you need apoint of tension and hopefully
you have a hero and maybe theywin, maybe they don't, they
don't have to.
The best stories often are theones where you don't get the
ending you expect, obviously.
(25:42):
And you talked about painting apicture.
I think writing is where Ireally best express myself and
whenever I write about Brooklyn,even just in things for myself,
I really try to capture all ofthe color, because I can still
hear that window pain rattlingup in my great grandmother's
window and I can still see thebrown paint flakes falling down
(26:04):
onto the street and thatcrumpled dollar bill and I could
still picture her house dressand I can see her hands and like
.
In a great story you bring allof that to life for someone.
Max Chopovsky (26:15):
Totally, that's what I was thinking of is the
paint flakes, because that it'slike the small details.
And what's cool about verbalstorytelling, or even written
storytelling, is that you leaveit to the audience to create the
picture, to recreate that scenefor themselves.
Scott Donaton (26:36):
Yeah, so it's always that thing.
I'm a very avid reader when Idon't think you can tell good
stories unless you read andconsume stories all the time as
well.
But whenever the book is madeinto a movie, it's always that
moment of like that's not thereality that I pictured, which
is also why I love likeGoodfellas, for example, because
like that one like totallynailed it for me from the book.
(26:57):
But there are others whereyou're like that's not what that
guy looks like, because thatgreat story you knew, you saw
the house, you saw the person,you saw the in book form, which
is always a danger when someonesuddenly casts Tom Cruise on the
role and you're like no, no, no, no.
Max Chopovsky (27:13):
No, you had it all wrong.
So stories got to have tension.
It's got a paint-a-vividpicture.
Do you feel like every storyhas to have a moral?
And if it doesn't, is it stilla good story?
Scott Donaton (27:26):
That's why I looked up the word moral when I
was doing this, to figure out ifthe story I was telling did
have a moral Intent versusinterpretation is something that
I'm fascinated with, andwhenever I meet artists from any
medium, I will ask them, if Ihave the opportunity to, how
hard it is to let go of theirwork to audiences, to the public
(27:46):
, to whoever, when they're donewith it, to others, and how much
they care about whether they'retrying to deliver a specific
message within their storyversus being completely happy
that once they let it go, it'snot theirs anymore and it's up
to whoever sees it, reads it,hears it to interpret and take
meaning from it.
And I just find that's a spacethat fascinates me, and I think
(28:09):
it goes to the question you justasked, which is like maybe it's
not so important that everystory has a moral If it's the
storyteller saying what thatmoral is.
Maybe it's just important thatanybody could hear any great
story and take their own lessonfrom it.
Max Chopovsky (28:26):
Yes, I think that's the Holy Grail is a story
that you are not cramming downpeople's throats.
It's a story where every personcan take away their own moral.
Scott Donaton (28:39):
And hopefully it resonates with them, hopefully
they see themselves in it.
I used to read a lot of fictionway back when I was married
that well I still do, but thatmy ex-wife would characterize as
dark and sad or you know,whatever you read, all that dark
, sad stuff.
I don't like that and I wouldsay it's funny.
I don't see any of thosestories as dark and sad because
they make me feel less alone inthe world, because these people
(29:03):
have taken their worst things,their most shameful things,
their most painful things andthey just put them out there for
all of us to see and make yourealize you may have this thing
inside of you that you somehowattached darkness to, but you're
just a human and like that's.
I would find those storiesuplifting in that way and I
remember just feeling completelydisconnected from the fact that
(29:25):
she saw these as dark and sadand I was uplifted by them.
Max Chopovsky (29:30):
Well, you know, rick Rubin would have a lot to
say on this matter.
He would say that, as an artist, you have an obligation to
release your art into the worldand your loyalty is first and
foremost to the art, then toyourself and then to the
audience, which implies that theaudience should be left to
(29:52):
their own devices in determiningwhat the moral is, but it also
implies that everybody will drawa conclusion, whatever it may
be.
And he talks about how, at theend of the day, the way that you
felt less alone when you readsome of these stories that she
(30:14):
would call dark, you found aconnection to those stories.
And as long as the person, thereader, the audience, finds a
connection to the story, itultimately helps them feel less
alone and it sort of fulfillsone of the main premises of
storytelling, which is it bringsus all together, as you know,
(30:34):
as as Gotta connect us, yeah.
Scott Donaton (30:36):
Yeah, it's got.
They have to connect us and Ithink this won't be the first
time in my life that I've saidthe sentence.
If there is a second chance atlife on this planet, I want to
come back as Rick Rubin Amazing,amazing person.
But you know I go to Burningman every year for the last 12
years.
I didn't go this year because Ihad to be in Scotland for a
family wedding.
But there was a year when I wasinvited by an artist.
(30:59):
She had created this amazingexperiential piece and it hadn't
opened yet and it was about twodays into the festival.
There were some technical andmechanical things that were
being fixed and I got invited tobe part of the team that came
in and helped test everythingbefore they opened it one night.
And then there was a.
We were there and it was kindof roped off still and they got
everything going.
(31:19):
We tested it, it was all readyto go and there were probably
200 or so people kind of justmilling around the perimeter of
this thing waiting for theperimeter to drop so that they
could experience it.
And the artist, her team, waslike we got it and she was like
let's do a champagne toast.
And she gathered everyone and Ikind of stayed on the edge
because I wasn't part of thecore crew, I had just come for
this last part.
She kept making speeches, shekept calling people out in the
(31:41):
toast and her team was kind ofgently saying like hey, we have
to drop the rope.
And she finally looked up andshe said I know I've been
delaying the moment because theminute that rope comes down it's
not mine anymore and I justlove that.
That's where I became.
I started really articulatingthis idea of intent versus
(32:02):
interpretation, and what is itlike for an artist to let go of
their work?
Max Chopovsky (32:07):
It is a I think, I feel like it's an emotion
that's at once painful, exciting, filled with trepidation and a
shit ton of anxiety.
Scott Donaton (32:23):
Yeah, and every once in a while I've asked an
artist who's been like oh, Idon't have any complex feelings
about it at all.
I was like, okay, which istheir truth, which is fine.
Obviously I think Michael Stipewas the one who used to people
asked him what his songs meantsaid whatever they mean to you
is what they mean, and it maynot be if it was awesome.
If it wasn't awesome.
Max Chopovsky (32:42):
whoever said it Totally, and some people are
more ready to let go than others.
So you mentioned books a fewtimes.
What is one, or what are ahandful of your favorite books
that just nail storytelling?
Scott Donaton (32:57):
Yeah, I mean again, this is reflective of my
age and background and myreading tastes have gotten so
much more diverse now, in largepart because I think we have an
opportunity to.
There's so many more diversestories being told finally by so
many other voices, or at leastin this country, and being
exposed to the highest levels ofwinning top book awards and so
(33:17):
a lot of writers that I'mreading now that might be Indian
or Chinese or writers who aretelling a story, or indigenous
reservation dogs, by the way,not a book but like the TV show,
amazing telling of indigenousstories.
But I grew up on and loved JohnUpdike and John Irving and
(33:39):
Richard Ford and Hemingway andthey were all white men.
But I think again, I gotmarried young and I talk about
this upbringing and I thinkprobably the rabbit series from
John Updike, starting withRabbit Run with a guy who
literally wanted to run awayfrom his life and his marriage
and there was a lot of that kindof suburban dystopia in
(34:02):
Updike's writing from the pointof view of the man, always.
Obviously I don't know why I'mbeing apologetic about one of
the greatest writers of all time, but Philip Roth as well, and
even something like SabbathTheater, which I can't ever
pronounce properly, is just likethe complexity of the emotions
and the dark and worst impulsesthat can bubble up in people
(34:24):
sometimes and like these are allamong the books that really
kind of helped me to see myself.
But I also have certain books.
I just started rereadingCatcher and the Rye for probably
the 12th or 15th time.
I read the Kill a Mockingbirdevery couple of years.
I read Catch 22 about once adecade.
So I think and this is probablytrue for a lot of people around
(34:48):
my age in particular Catcherand the Rye is the book that
taught me how to read, like Ihad a great English teacher, I
should say he taught me how toread, but that was the book that
he really taught me how to readin beyond the words that I was
seeing on the page.
I remember even I think there'sa character who is Holden
Caulfield's roommate and hisname is James Castle, and coming
(35:09):
to the realization that he wasJC, he was Jesus Christ and he
had died for Holden's sin, andit's just like there are some
things that just really thatbook, probably more than any, is
seminal in my life.
Max Chopovsky (35:23):
Totally Last question for you.
If you could spend a fewmoments with 20 year old Scott
and say one thing to him, whatwould it be?
Scott Donaton (35:37):
Get over yourself and don't believe your own
bullshit.
I think in my maybe not rightat 20, but certainly into my
early 20s Like I wasn't totallycocky, but I think I came across
that some people was arrogant.
I also think I was judgmental.
I know I was judgmental.
I'll switch my answer slightly.
I'd probably be like don't bejudgmental, because I remember
(35:58):
the moment and this is againseems obvious.
But the thing that finally, Ifeel like almost in one moment,
broke for me being judgmentalwas when somebody just gave me
the simple device of two things.
One is, whenever I look atsomeone and I find myself about
to judge them, I stop and saywhat is it about them?
That is triggered a fear foryou, about yourself, myself?
(36:19):
And the other thing is just tosay that's me, he's me, she's me
.
Yeah, I think if I could teachhim any lesson, it would be
they're all you, you're all them.
Max Chopovsky (36:32):
That's really good.
You know, I'm really hard onmyself and I was listening to
this podcast.
I think it was Peter Atia andhe mentioned this in his show.
He said you know, when you'rereally hard on yourself and you
have this really criticalinternal dialogue, self-critical
internal dialogue you shouldtalk to yourself the same way
(36:56):
you would talk to your bestfriend who just did the same
thing that you're so mad atyourself for, and you will
immediately notice the starkdifference of how you talk to
yourself versus how you talk toyour friend.
And if all you do is noticethat, it's already a success.
But it then makes you justrealize how hard you are on
yourself.
And when you're talking aboutbeing judgmental, it's so
(37:20):
interesting you can just say,well, that's me, how would I
talk to myself?
Scott Donaton (37:25):
Right, yeah, no for sure I will find myself.
If a friend of mine is beatingthemselves up, I'll just say you
know, and I'll use their name.
Like you know, don't talk to myfriend Aaron like that.
I'll say to my son like, don'ttalk to my son Jack like that.
Right, I love him.
I will not tolerate you talkingabout him that way.
It's a good.
But I just want to thank youactually for that question,
(37:48):
because I didn't like it and nowthat I just stumbled into that
answer while starting somewhereelse, I'm okay with that
question.
I'm like oh, that's it, I havean answer.
Now it may evolve, but right inthe me of today, that's my
answer and I like it.
Max Chopovsky (38:02):
Sometimes you have to wade through discomfort
to get to a prize on the otherside.
The only way out is through.
The only way out is through.
Well, that does it.
Scott Donatan.
Stand up philosopher.
Scott Donaton (38:18):
Thank you, that's Mel Brooks.
Mel Brooks is mine.
Max Chopovsky (38:23):
But you use it, I do, there's nothing wrong with
that.
Thank you for gracing the micand being on the show man.
Thank you for having me Max.
Scott Donaton (38:31):
This was really amazing, delightful way to spend
time.
Max Chopovsky (38:35):
Well, thank you, I appreciate that For show notes
and more head over to maspodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was Moro of the Story.
I'm Max Trapowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
This is Moral of the Story interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, max Tropowski.
Today's guest is Scott Donaton,creative guru, self-proclaimed
stand-up philosopher, semi-proeditor of FriendsBio's, maker of
movements and asker of poignantquestions.
Raised in Brooklyn, scottstudied journalism at St John's
(00:24):
University, serving as theeditor-in-chief of the Torch,
the school's student newspaper.
Scott stormed Madison Avenue in1996, kicking down the door at
advertising age, where he madehis way up the ranks from
reporter to editor-in-chief,serving in the role for over 10
years.
After grabbing readers by theeyeballs as the publisher of
Entertainment Weekly, scottreturned to Madison Avenue as
(00:46):
the chief content officer ofIPG's UM global media network.
While at UM, scott was awardedthe Cann Entertainment Lion for
original comedy series AlwaysOpen, produced for Denny's with
Jason Bateman and Will Arnett.
With trophy firmly in hand,scott made the move to Digitast
North America as global chiefcreative and content officer,
(01:06):
heading the agency's connectedcreative practice and launching
Digitast Studios to createlong-form content for brands
like American Express, lego,travelers and Lenovo.
After checking East Coastdomination off his bucket list,
scott moved the party to SantaMonica as the SVP and head of
marketing at Hulu, where he notonly drove growth from 30
million to 48 million paidsubscribers, he founded Internal
(01:29):
Agency Greenhouse, pioneeredHulu's branded entertainment
unit, created EmmyAward-nominated content and
played a key role in theintegration of Hulu into Disney
In 2023,.
Scott was elected to NPR'sboard of directors, overseeing
performance, governance policiesand strategic direction, and
likely helping ensure that thestorytelling and integrity combo
(01:49):
remains strong to quite strongat the esteemed brand.
In addition to Cannes, scott'swork for brands like Coca-Cola,
bmw, sony and L'Oreal has beenrecognized by the producers
Guild of America, clio's DNADand London International
Advertising Awards.
So the stand-up philosophers inthe house and on the mic, scott
, welcome to the show.
Scott Donaton (02:10):
Thank you, Max.
That was fantastic.
You tell my career story muchbetter than I do.
I think I can take youeverywhere or recording of that
everywhere with me from now on.
Max Chopovsky (02:19):
Happy to come with you, man.
I love me.
A good adventure.
So you are here to tell us astory.
Is there anything we need toknow before we get started?
Do you want to set the stage?
Scott Donaton (02:32):
No, I can set the stage inside the story itself,
I think.
So it's probably not a surprisefor someone of my age and
background to tell you thatGodfather, part Two, in
particular Goodfellas in a BronxTale, are among my favorite
movies.
Now, what might be moresurprising is to know that for
me those are not fictionalstories.
(02:54):
They're snapshots of mychildhood and an important part
of who I am today.
And in fact, goodfellas was nota work of fiction after all, it
was actually based on the bookWise Guy.
Wise Guy is by Nick Pelleggi,who went to the same high school
in Brooklyn that I did, a bitbefore me, if you know Nick's
age, but he's obviously a legend.
So I literally grew up in whatis now called Carroll Gardens.
(03:17):
At the time was called SouthBrooklyn and when my mother grew
up there was considered part ofRed Hook second generation
Italian neighborhood for themost part, and a lot of first
generation immigrants as well.
Very much a mafia controlled.
If there is such a thing, theyapparently isn't, but if there
is one, they very muchcontrolled.
The neighborhood I grew up inand I'm talking social clubs on
(03:40):
the corner where guys namedPunchy and Fat Freddy and Big
Red hung out all the time withtheir espresso and playing cards
and smoking cigars and goldchains and tattoos, and these
were the people that ran theneighborhood and you just knew
that and it was a fact ofeveryday life.
And the deli on the cornerwould sell sweaters in the back.
(04:01):
The guy who ran it would say infront of my mother, anna, I got
some sweaters that fell off atruck $5 in the back, I'll get
some for the kids.
This was the truth and I'll saythat, while I ultimately
obviously didn't face the issuethat some of the characters did
in Goodfellas and Bronx Tale inother words, I wasn't actually
invited into the mob in any wayand made other choices there was
(04:23):
definitely a period where thatwas a very romantic way of
living.
There was a very romanticizedview of the neighborhood.
By the way, I grew up beingtold how safe I was in my
neighborhood.
Of course, I realized later onthat was because of the color of
my skin and the fact that I wasone of them a very tribal
neighborhood, and most of theneighborhoods in Brooklyn were.
At that time, I knew whichneighborhoods and streets I
(04:45):
couldn't cross over into, butthese guys seemed really cool.
They literally had thecigarette packs rolled up in
their t-shirts, and the tattoosand the gold chains and
swaggered around theneighborhood.
And it took me quite a while,and without much putting
judgment into this, to realizethat these were not people I
wanted to emulate or base a lifeoff of.
(05:07):
But my family itself was a veryblue collar one, a lot of cops
and firefighters and longshoremen.
We had a brownstone in thatneighborhood that had probably
had about 80 cousins and secondcousins and third cousins.
Of course they were all justcousins to Italians who lived
within a five block radius, andon Christmas Eve we would all
gather in the same brownstonethat my grandmother lived in and
(05:28):
there'd be 80 or so peoplerunning up and down across four
floors all night long doing thefeast of the seven fishes, my
Italian great grandmother, whosigned her name with an X and
couldn't read or speak English,but when I'd be outside in the
streets playing stickball orrunning bases or Ringolivio was
the name of a game that weplayed on the streets of
Brooklyn the ice cream truckwould come and my great
(05:51):
grandmother would wrap on thewindow the third floor window of
the brownstone, until I paidattention to her, whether I
wanted to or not, and then rollup the window with lots of paint
flakes falling to the streetand toss down a crumpled dollar
bill which meant go get me avanilla cone with rainbow
sprinkles, and then I'd have tocarry her cone in mine up the
steps dripping down my arm.
(06:11):
Scotso, she called me becauseshe didn't like that.
My mother gave me an Italianlast name, and this was just
really an amazing way to grow upin so many ways, and while
there are so many things aboutit today that I can see that are
really flawed, my mother sat onthe brownstone, stooped every
night with her cup of coffee andwe all played late into the
night while our mother'sgossiped over the walls and the
(06:33):
wise guys played cards on thecorner, and some of this comes
down to me.
I had an uncle, frankie, who wasa longshoreman and he was like
a father to me and he was verymuch a kid of the streets and
covered in tattoos.
He didn't want to be on thewrong side of his temper and he
was the tough guy and he showedme a view of masculinity.
(06:54):
And when he was a little bitolder he had a quadruple bypass
and if you've ever seen somebodyin a hospital after that
procedure.
They don't look good.
So I went to the hospital tovisit Frankie and he was very
thin and frail looking tubescoming out of everywhere.
Really terrible to see him thisway and I swear this actually
(07:15):
happened.
It sounds like a scene from amovie, but he beckoned me over
to the bed and I got over and hehad me leaned down so they
could whisper something in myear and I leaned down and
waiting for a word of wisdomfrom Uncle Frankie and what he
said to me was I could stillkick your ass.
So this is the world that Igrew up in and this is the thing
(07:38):
that I think people most loveabout me today.
I will say the Brooklyn accent.
Some people hear it in traceform still, you know.
But if you want me to do thewhole interview like this from
the from here forward, I couldjust kind of bring it out and we
could do it the rest of the day, all day long.
When I go back and visit myfamily at Christmas, I'll find
myself I'll go to the bagelstore and I'll be like yo, chief
, give me, treat them everythingbagels.
(07:59):
And I'm like who was that?
What's going on in there?
That was Scott.
You got a not wise guy wise guywith you today.
Max Chopovsky (08:08):
That's amazing, the way that you painted the
picture of that block, with thewise guys playing cards on the
corner and the moms gossipingand drinking coffee while the
kids played into the night.
It's such a vivid picture andthat's probably why you remember
it so vividly that when youtell that story, it's such a
(08:28):
time-wist neighborhood too,because I was there a few weeks
ago and it's been completelygentrified now.
Scott Donaton (08:34):
There's still traces of Italian there.
There's actually a couple ofbakeries and restaurants that
were there since I was a kid,but the streets haven't changed.
The brownstones have beenupdated because they were
crumbling, but it's really abeautiful tree-lined
neighborhood that retains asmuch of that character today as
it always did, and I thinkthat's the beautiful thing about
Brooklyn.
Max Chopovsky (08:54):
I think it's such a joy to grow up there, because
it really is a special place itreally is and, by the way, I
could tell the Brooklyn accent,because the dead giveaway is the
Rs sound like Vs and it's aBrooklyn.
That's immediately noticeable.
Scott Donaton (09:13):
Yeah, I like to think it's gone.
I never took conscious steps totake it out, but I think I,
just as I got exposed to more ofthe world and more people and
moved outside the limits of theneighborhood, it mostly went
away.
It definitely comes out whenI'm angry or excited, but it
does come out when I'm around myfamily in ways that scare me
sometimes as well.
Max Chopovsky (09:33):
Totally, yeah.
I mean, I think that when yougo back to where you came from,
whatever you tried to repress orsuppress in some way, it just
bubbles back to the surface.
Like if I go back to Kentuckyto see my family, there are
times when I notice a veryslight, vague Southern accent.
(09:58):
I'm like, oh my God, who isthat person?
I haven't talked to that personin a while.
Scott Donaton (10:03):
I'm still friends with four or five guys I went
to high school with and we havevery different lives in a lot of
ways today.
Some of them still live in thesame neighborhood, but we get
together about once a year fordinner and, to your point, like
you can't be anyone but yourselfwith those people.
They don't care what you'vedone since then, they don't care
who you think you are now, likeyou are the same person they
(10:25):
grew up with and they will takeno bullshit from you.
Max Chopovsky (10:28):
Totally.
Now let me ask you this asyou're walking into this
hospital room and Frankie islaying in the bed, do you have
any idea about what he's aboutto say?
Like, do you feel like it'sgoing to be some timeless wisdom
?
Are you imagining that somewords that you can't repeat will
(10:48):
come out of his mouth, likewhere's your head at when this
is happening?
Scott Donaton (10:51):
First of all, it was really hard walking into
that room because he was one ofthe most vibrant people I knew
and, by the way, he came backfrom that surgery.
He's since passed but died.
I hate the word passed, sorry,but I was really worried at that
point.
I didn't see that he was goingto survive what was happening
here and he really was like afather.
(11:12):
I had a father, who's also died, but Frankie became a real kind
of second father to me in a lotof ways and again showed me a
very different view ofmasculinity than my father, and
not one that I emulated,necessarily, but one that I saw
up close through him.
But he had this kind of fierceItalian love and even when I was
getting married he called wifeto be over at a dinner one night
(11:36):
and sat aside with her andlater on she told me that he
basically said if you break hisheart, you're going to have to
answer to me.
That's my son over there, that'smy son.
So I really thought he probablywould just say something like
you know you're my son and Iknow how much I love you.
And the fact that he said likeit's still kick your ass.
He actually just said I stillkick your ass.
(11:57):
He didn't say could.
I was clean, I was making thesentence a little more.
It was kind of brilliant socharacter when it came out that
I was like what else could hehave said to me in that moment?
He did not want me to.
He probably saw somewhere in myface which is not something you
want to show to people in thatplace, the concern about seeing
(12:18):
him like that, and I think hedid not ever till the end to
want to be viewed as anythingless than than the fierce, tough
guy he always was.
Max Chopovsky (12:26):
Do you think that he figured those were going to
be his sort of last words to you?
Scott Donaton (12:31):
Maybe, maybe, although I don't know if he
would have admitted to himselfthat he was ever going to die.
Max Chopovsky (12:37):
Yeah, totally.
You mentioned that he gave youa different perspective on
masculinity than your dad did.
How did the two perspectivescompare?
Scott Donaton (12:48):
My father was much more God.
It's weird, I'll just.
The first word that comes to mymind is timid.
There are people who know him.
He's a big guy and he could bea loud guy sometimes but he
wasn't forceful, and he with hissecond wife in particular.
And I realized as I got older tonot to make this into a therapy
session but that I had kind ofin some ways made him a little
(13:11):
bit, even cartoonishly, theopposite of Frankie, but it felt
like a lot of times.
You know, his ex-wife wasreally the one who ran things
and my father went along withthem and didn't push back on a
lot of things.
He also he wasn't veryexpressive.
He didn't say I love you a lot.
He didn't want to have bigconversations about, even as I
got older, like the impact ofthe divorce on me or any of
(13:35):
those things were just nottopics he felt comfortable with
and Frankie was just veryexpressive, very, constantly
hugging, constantly touching,showing his love.
But he was also someone to beafraid of.
I used to think there was aperiod of time when I was
younger where I might have madea bit of noise chewing my food,
and there was not.
You know, there might have beenone or two times that I ended
(13:56):
up finding myself out of my seaton the floor after doing that
too loudly for too long in frontof Frankie.
So you know, it was very much a.
You're the man of the family,you're in charge, you take care
of things.
You don't let anybody push youaround.
You get into a fight ifsomebody messes with you.
I had a short temper for in mytwenties not a violent one, but
(14:18):
a short one, and thankfully Idon't anymore.
It didn't serve me, but it wasinteresting.
I realized much later in lifehow much these, the contrast
between the two of them, left mefeeling like I had to figure
out on my own what it meant tobe a man and what kind of man I
wanted to be.
Max Chopovsky (14:36):
Because they were basically opposites of each
other.
Scott Donaton (14:39):
Yeah, for sure, there were some stories.
There was a story where therewas a bit of a conflict between
them, which was almost going tobe my story for today, but it
really came out of that and myfather was definitely afraid of
Frankie and probably should havebeen.
Max Chopovsky (14:55):
I believe that, based on how you're describing
them Now, you mentioned that youwere not in the mob Did they
ever approach you?
Did they ever try to recruityou, or what was that process
like?
How did that even happen, ifthey did?
Scott Donaton (15:10):
I don't recall anything on those lines.
I mean, there were definitelytimes when they'd see you go
into the deli and they'd be likeget me a bag of chips or a soda
.
We knew them.
Some of them were fathers of myfriends that I was playing with
on the block.
We were respectful of them.
They would occasionally justgive you money for no reason or
ask you to run a favor, andmaybe for some others that
(15:32):
becomes a gateway that if youpush against, it opens.
I don't recall that I everpushed against it, but it was
just a.
You know, it is funny when I dowatch a Bronx Tale in
particular like it's really hardnot to be like for so many
people.
I think this is like this worldthat didn't actually even
really exist and it so did inalmost exactly the way that it's
(15:54):
portrayed in those films thatI'm almost like how did I get
out?
Max Chopovsky (15:59):
and why so those are accurate, the way that
they're portrayed, done in thosefilms.
Scott Donaton (16:03):
Yeah, I mean Goodfellas and not the Godfather
.
Amazing a film as it is.
I don't think it's meant to begrounded in reality, but I think
Goodfellas and a Bronx Tale forme feel like really known
places and people.
Max Chopovsky (16:16):
It is kind of, you know you use the same word
that I was thinking of which isromanticized.
It does feel like, especiallyin hindsight, to be a really
romanticized time where thingswere difficult but also simpler
in a number of ways, you know,and now that the world has
gotten so much more complex andglobalized and technologically
(16:37):
advanced and all of thesedifferent things, there is, I
think, a part of some of us thatkind of feels this, maybe
yearning or sort of melancholytowards those times, you know,
when things were just, I guess,a little bit less complicated.
Scott Donaton (16:55):
Yeah, I think for sure, and I'm not nostalgic per
se, maybe I am.
I'm definitely a bit of aromantic around things, but I
still see, you know, brooklynthrough, you know, a lens.
That doesn't mean my view on itand some of the people and not
again, hopefully not in ajudgmental way Even some of the
(17:15):
kind of again I use the wordtribal, which maybe in some
settings would sound judgmental,but like there was something
about people who just kind ofthis is where I was born, this
is where I'm gonna die, this ismy family, they're what matters
to me.
Me moving cross-country waseven an older, later age in life
, like to my mother on somelevel.
You know I was leaving andthere are things about it that I
(17:37):
definitely came to appreciate,you know, and even the blue
collar aspect.
I think I was the second personin my family to go to college
and you know there were timeswhen I think sometimes even they
thought like, oh, mr, collegethe great.
But like these are people whoworked hard their entire lives
to care their families right,who there's so much that I
(17:57):
admire about it, even when I seeit through a clearer lens, that
definitely can rub away some ofthe romanticized view.
You know, some of these wiseguys were not good.
They were not good people right, and they didn't do good things
and there's no world in whichpretending otherwise makes sense
, but so justifying none of that.
(18:17):
But you know, there was a guyin the neighborhood who was only
a few years older than us, Ithink, and his name was Artie
Boy.
And you know, like Artie Boyhad these big colorful tattoos
of devils and again, he was theone you know always had the
cigarette pack rolled up.
It was hard not to think thatwas really cool.
A knife in his back pocket.
It was hard not to see that ascool when I was a kid and easier
(18:39):
to see it as not cool now.
But I still understand theattraction at the time.
I mean the fact that there havegrown men with names like Big
Red and Punchy and Fat Freddy.
You know, and this is real,it's kind of awesome.
Max Chopovsky (18:52):
It is kind of awesome.
Scott Donaton (18:53):
Yeah, it is kind of awesome.
Max Chopovsky (18:54):
To a storyteller yeah, so tell me this the story
that you told.
What is the moral of that story?
Scott Donaton (19:00):
It's funny.
I even not that I don't knowwhat Dord moral is, but knowing
the name of the podcast, I waslike what is the moral of the
story?
And I do think it's kind ofembrace who you are and where
you're from.
There was someone that Imentioned that I might share
this story, who was like do youwant people to know this about
you?
And there's another guy that Iknow in the.
He has his own ad agency.
(19:21):
He's done really well in lifeand he grew up in a very tough
family not in Brooklyn, verysimilar circumstances.
He grew up very poor.
I definitely we were strugglingfinancially when I grew up.
I mean, we had governmentcheese in the fridge and food
stamps and you know.
So I know what that's like.
And I think there are times whenI've met throughout my career
(19:42):
so many people who had muchdifferent upbringings.
And there are times where I've,you know, the temptation would
be that somehow this issomething that you should hide
about yourself.
I'm so proud of it because itis.
It played a huge role in theperson I am today and I think
it's like it's all part of yourstory and no matter what your
(20:03):
story is, and the more you tellyour story to more people, which
I'm sure, to some degree, iswhat drew you here, the more
you've realized how universal somany of our truths are and I
think, like never forget, likewhere you came from and how that
made you who you are today 100%.
Max Chopovsky (20:20):
We also, after we moved to America, we also grew
up on food stamps and we didn'treally have very much.
And I think that and again,this is just my theory I think
that what happens is people wantto downplay that because they
want to either assimilate or fitin, or they want, or they think
(20:42):
that that's a knock on them asa person.
You know and their characterand ultimately part of the
reason that some people thatstarted with nothing became
successful is because they hadtheir back against the wall and
they had to learn how to grindat a young age, right, and it's
not until we become older thatwe not just recognize that, but
(21:07):
we embrace it and it reallystarts to come out and we become
more proud of where we camefrom, because it had so much to
do with where we ultimately endup in life.
Scott Donaton (21:20):
And I wouldn't want it any other way.
I mean, to your point, I'vebeen working since I was 12.
It started with two.
I had two paper routes.
The New York Post was anafternoon newspaper then, so I
would deliver the daily news bybicycle before I went to school,
and then the New York Postafter I got out of school.
I worked stocking shelves in thegrocery store in the corner and
I drove a delivery truck when Igot a little older for a
(21:43):
butcher shop whose the horn onthe van played the Godfather
theme song and I used to startmy Saturday morning deliveries
and make sure that I blew thathorn on certain blocks, which
I'm sure there are still peoplethere who like that damn horn.
That woke me up every Saturdaymorning.
But it is all part of who youare and the high school I went
to.
If you know the TV show WelcomeBack Cotter I'm really showing
(22:06):
my age here now, but the highschool that's shown in all the
exterior shots for Welcome BackCotter is my high school and the
sweat hogs and all the thingsin there is John Travolta.
The show that made JohnTravolta were based on my high
school and that did feel likesomething almost to be ashamed
of for some years, and now it'ssomething I couldn't be prouder
of.
Max Chopovsky (22:24):
Totally.
I think it's only somethingthat we can appreciate when
we're older.
Right being able to embracethat is so important.
So you obviously have a ton ofstories that you've heard and
told why did you choose this one?
It was between this one andanother one you mentioned
earlier.
So what made this one went out?
Scott Donaton (22:45):
Yeah, there were three.
I mean that made the final cutand I think what I worried most
about with this one was thatit's not actually one story in
the way that some of the storiesthat I've heard from others
that you've interviewed is, andI was a little afraid that it
was painting a whole picture ofa childhood, as opposed to each
of the other stories were kindof much more particular moments
(23:06):
or days, but I think it'sbecause I felt this one, at the
end of the day, best representedme and who I am.
Max Chopovsky (23:15):
There are sometimes these singular moments
that just encompass an entireera right and in your mind, that
moment was just representativeof that entire picture that you
drew in the beginning of thestory.
Scott Donaton (23:32):
Yeah, yeah, I think so.
If you want to know theheadline of one of my other
stories, I won't go deeperbecause one of the other truths
is it doesn't go much deeper andit's not that interesting at
the end of the day was I oncespent the night in a hotel room
with Bill Clinton?
Oh, that's amazing.
Yeah, but it's not as good astory as it seems.
I mean, it's not a bad story itwas the night that Hillary was
(23:57):
elected to the Senate.
I ended up at a celebrationparty in their hotel room.
Max Chopovsky (24:02):
I actually feel like the best way to tell that
story is just to leave it at theheadline, because I should have
.
Yes, people's imaginations justrun wild, so you've obviously
heard a ton of great stories.
What do good stories have incommon?
Scott Donaton (24:18):
They have to have some kind of tension and
conflict.
What's really interesting is,having spent a lot of my career
doing storytelling for and withbrands, it's amazing how
uncomfortable that makes brandsthat always want to present a
happy view of the world.
But I think one of the firstthings whenever I'm helping a
person or a brand the people whowork for that brand to figure
(24:39):
out what their story is.
There's three things there'skind of like with all love to
Simon Sinek to start with, whyis my favorite Ted talk of all
times?
I've told him that whenever Imeet him I fanboy out on him a
little bit and I repeat that tohim every time.
But it became a driving mantrais kind of know your why, which
maybe goes back to what I saidthat I think the moral of this
(25:01):
story is.
But the other two to me, thingsthat you have to have to have a
great story is you have to havea tension and a conflict.
You have to have a monster thatyou're slaying.
Again, when you talk tocompanies it's always
interesting.
You're like you say who's yourenemy and they go if they name
their competitors and you justgo no, no, no.
(25:21):
Mikey's enemy is the couchright, snickers, enemy is being
angry, right and like, and anygood story.
You need an enemy, you need apoint of tension and hopefully
you have a hero and maybe theywin, maybe they don't, they
don't have to.
The best stories often are theones where you don't get the
ending you expect, obviously.
(25:42):
And you talked about painting apicture.
I think writing is where Ireally best express myself and
whenever I write about Brooklyn,even just in things for myself,
I really try to capture all ofthe color, because I can still
hear that window pain rattlingup in my great grandmother's
window and I can still see thebrown paint flakes falling down
(26:04):
onto the street and thatcrumpled dollar bill and I could
still picture her house dressand I can see her hands and like
.
In a great story you bring allof that to life for someone.
Max Chopovsky (26:15):
Totally, that's what I was thinking of is the
paint flakes, because that it'slike the small details.
And what's cool about verbalstorytelling, or even written
storytelling, is that you leaveit to the audience to create the
picture, to recreate that scenefor themselves.
Scott Donaton (26:36):
Yeah, so it's always that thing.
I'm a very avid reader when Idon't think you can tell good
stories unless you read andconsume stories all the time as
well.
But whenever the book is madeinto a movie, it's always that
moment of like that's not thereality that I pictured, which
is also why I love likeGoodfellas, for example, because
like that one like totallynailed it for me from the book.
(26:57):
But there are others whereyou're like that's not what that
guy looks like, because thatgreat story you knew, you saw
the house, you saw the person,you saw the in book form, which
is always a danger when someonesuddenly casts Tom Cruise on the
role and you're like no, no, no, no.
Max Chopovsky (27:13):
No, you had it all wrong.
So stories got to have tension.
It's got a paint-a-vividpicture.
Do you feel like every storyhas to have a moral?
And if it doesn't, is it stilla good story?
Scott Donaton (27:26):
That's why I looked up the word moral when I
was doing this, to figure out ifthe story I was telling did
have a moral Intent versusinterpretation is something that
I'm fascinated with, andwhenever I meet artists from any
medium, I will ask them, if Ihave the opportunity to, how
hard it is to let go of theirwork to audiences, to the public
(27:46):
, to whoever, when they're donewith it, to others, and how much
they care about whether they'retrying to deliver a specific
message within their storyversus being completely happy
that once they let it go, it'snot theirs anymore and it's up
to whoever sees it, reads it,hears it to interpret and take
meaning from it.
And I just find that's a spacethat fascinates me, and I think
(28:09):
it goes to the question you justasked, which is like maybe it's
not so important that everystory has a moral If it's the
storyteller saying what thatmoral is.
Maybe it's just important thatanybody could hear any great
story and take their own lessonfrom it.
Max Chopovsky (28:26):
Yes, I think that's the Holy Grail is a story
that you are not cramming downpeople's throats.
It's a story where every personcan take away their own moral.
Scott Donaton (28:39):
And hopefully it resonates with them, hopefully
they see themselves in it.
I used to read a lot of fictionway back when I was married
that well I still do, but thatmy ex-wife would characterize as
dark and sad or you know,whatever you read, all that dark
, sad stuff.
I don't like that and I wouldsay it's funny.
I don't see any of thosestories as dark and sad because
they make me feel less alone inthe world, because these people
(29:03):
have taken their worst things,their most shameful things,
their most painful things andthey just put them out there for
all of us to see and make yourealize you may have this thing
inside of you that you somehowattached darkness to, but you're
just a human and like that's.
I would find those storiesuplifting in that way and I
remember just feeling completelydisconnected from the fact that
(29:25):
she saw these as dark and sadand I was uplifted by them.
Max Chopovsky (29:30):
Well, you know, rick Rubin would have a lot to
say on this matter.
He would say that, as an artist, you have an obligation to
release your art into the worldand your loyalty is first and
foremost to the art, then toyourself and then to the
audience, which implies that theaudience should be left to
(29:52):
their own devices in determiningwhat the moral is, but it also
implies that everybody will drawa conclusion, whatever it may
be.
And he talks about how, at theend of the day, the way that you
felt less alone when you readsome of these stories that she
(30:14):
would call dark, you found aconnection to those stories.
And as long as the person, thereader, the audience, finds a
connection to the story, itultimately helps them feel less
alone and it sort of fulfillsone of the main premises of
storytelling, which is it bringsus all together, as you know,
(30:34):
as as Gotta connect us, yeah.
Scott Donaton (30:36):
Yeah, it's got.
They have to connect us and Ithink this won't be the first
time in my life that I've saidthe sentence.
If there is a second chance atlife on this planet, I want to
come back as Rick Rubin Amazing,amazing person.
But you know I go to Burningman every year for the last 12
years.
I didn't go this year because Ihad to be in Scotland for a
family wedding.
But there was a year when I wasinvited by an artist.
(30:59):
She had created this amazingexperiential piece and it hadn't
opened yet and it was about twodays into the festival.
There were some technical andmechanical things that were
being fixed and I got invited tobe part of the team that came
in and helped test everythingbefore they opened it one night.
And then there was a.
We were there and it was kindof roped off still and they got
everything going.
(31:19):
We tested it, it was all readyto go and there were probably
200 or so people kind of justmilling around the perimeter of
this thing waiting for theperimeter to drop so that they
could experience it.
And the artist, her team, waslike we got it and she was like
let's do a champagne toast.
And she gathered everyone and Ikind of stayed on the edge
because I wasn't part of thecore crew, I had just come for
this last part.
She kept making speeches, shekept calling people out in the
(31:41):
toast and her team was kind ofgently saying like hey, we have
to drop the rope.
And she finally looked up andshe said I know I've been
delaying the moment because theminute that rope comes down it's
not mine anymore and I justlove that.
That's where I became.
I started really articulatingthis idea of intent versus
(32:02):
interpretation, and what is itlike for an artist to let go of
their work?
Max Chopovsky (32:07):
It is a I think, I feel like it's an emotion
that's at once painful, exciting, filled with trepidation and a
shit ton of anxiety.
Scott Donaton (32:23):
Yeah, and every once in a while I've asked an
artist who's been like oh, Idon't have any complex feelings
about it at all.
I was like, okay, which istheir truth, which is fine.
Obviously I think Michael Stipewas the one who used to people
asked him what his songs meantsaid whatever they mean to you
is what they mean, and it maynot be if it was awesome.
If it wasn't awesome.
Max Chopovsky (32:42):
whoever said it Totally, and some people are
more ready to let go than others.
So you mentioned books a fewtimes.
What is one, or what are ahandful of your favorite books
that just nail storytelling?
Scott Donaton (32:57):
Yeah, I mean again, this is reflective of my
age and background and myreading tastes have gotten so
much more diverse now, in largepart because I think we have an
opportunity to.
There's so many more diversestories being told finally by so
many other voices, or at leastin this country, and being
exposed to the highest levels ofwinning top book awards and so
(33:17):
a lot of writers that I'mreading now that might be Indian
or Chinese or writers who aretelling a story, or indigenous
reservation dogs, by the way,not a book but like the TV show,
amazing telling of indigenousstories.
But I grew up on and loved JohnUpdike and John Irving and
(33:39):
Richard Ford and Hemingway andthey were all white men.
But I think again, I gotmarried young and I talk about
this upbringing and I thinkprobably the rabbit series from
John Updike, starting withRabbit Run with a guy who
literally wanted to run awayfrom his life and his marriage
and there was a lot of that kindof suburban dystopia in
(34:02):
Updike's writing from the pointof view of the man, always.
Obviously I don't know why I'mbeing apologetic about one of
the greatest writers of all time, but Philip Roth as well, and
even something like SabbathTheater, which I can't ever
pronounce properly, is just likethe complexity of the emotions
and the dark and worst impulsesthat can bubble up in people
(34:24):
sometimes and like these are allamong the books that really
kind of helped me to see myself.
But I also have certain books.
I just started rereadingCatcher and the Rye for probably
the 12th or 15th time.
I read the Kill a Mockingbirdevery couple of years.
I read Catch 22 about once adecade.
So I think and this is probablytrue for a lot of people around
(34:48):
my age in particular Catcherand the Rye is the book that
taught me how to read, like Ihad a great English teacher, I
should say he taught me how toread, but that was the book that
he really taught me how to readin beyond the words that I was
seeing on the page.
I remember even I think there'sa character who is Holden
Caulfield's roommate and hisname is James Castle, and coming
(35:09):
to the realization that he wasJC, he was Jesus Christ and he
had died for Holden's sin, andit's just like there are some
things that just really thatbook, probably more than any, is
seminal in my life.
Max Chopovsky (35:23):
Totally Last question for you.
If you could spend a fewmoments with 20 year old Scott
and say one thing to him, whatwould it be?
Scott Donaton (35:37):
Get over yourself and don't believe your own
bullshit.
I think in my maybe not rightat 20, but certainly into my
early 20s Like I wasn't totallycocky, but I think I came across
that some people was arrogant.
I also think I was judgmental.
I know I was judgmental.
I'll switch my answer slightly.
I'd probably be like don't bejudgmental, because I remember
(35:58):
the moment and this is againseems obvious.
But the thing that finally, Ifeel like almost in one moment,
broke for me being judgmentalwas when somebody just gave me
the simple device of two things.
One is, whenever I look atsomeone and I find myself about
to judge them, I stop and saywhat is it about them?
That is triggered a fear foryou, about yourself, myself?
(36:19):
And the other thing is just tosay that's me, he's me, she's me
.
Yeah, I think if I could teachhim any lesson, it would be
they're all you, you're all them.
Max Chopovsky (36:32):
That's really good.
You know, I'm really hard onmyself and I was listening to
this podcast.
I think it was Peter Atia andhe mentioned this in his show.
He said you know, when you'rereally hard on yourself and you
have this really criticalinternal dialogue, self-critical
internal dialogue you shouldtalk to yourself the same way
(36:56):
you would talk to your bestfriend who just did the same
thing that you're so mad atyourself for, and you will
immediately notice the starkdifference of how you talk to
yourself versus how you talk toyour friend.
And if all you do is noticethat, it's already a success.
But it then makes you justrealize how hard you are on
yourself.
And when you're talking aboutbeing judgmental, it's so
(37:20):
interesting you can just say,well, that's me, how would I
talk to myself?
Scott Donaton (37:25):
Right, yeah, no for sure I will find myself.
If a friend of mine is beatingthemselves up, I'll just say you
know, and I'll use their name.
Like you know, don't talk to myfriend Aaron like that.
I'll say to my son like, don'ttalk to my son Jack like that.
Right, I love him.
I will not tolerate you talkingabout him that way.
It's a good.
But I just want to thank youactually for that question,
(37:48):
because I didn't like it and nowthat I just stumbled into that
answer while starting somewhereelse, I'm okay with that
question.
I'm like oh, that's it, I havean answer.
Now it may evolve, but right inthe me of today, that's my
answer and I like it.
Max Chopovsky (38:02):
Sometimes you have to wade through discomfort
to get to a prize on the otherside.
The only way out is through.
The only way out is through.
Well, that does it.
Scott Donatan.
Stand up philosopher.
Scott Donaton (38:18):
Thank you, that's Mel Brooks.
Mel Brooks is mine.
Max Chopovsky (38:23):
But you use it, I do, there's nothing wrong with
that.
Thank you for gracing the micand being on the show man.
Thank you for having me Max.
Scott Donaton (38:31):
This was really amazing, delightful way to spend
time.
Max Chopovsky (38:35):
Well, thank you, I appreciate that For show notes
and more head over to maspodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was Moro of the Story.
I'm Max Trapowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
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