November 30, 2023 • 52 mins
When Clinical Professor of Managerial Psychology Linda Ginzel put together a set of handouts for her capstone leadership class at the University of Chicago Booth School of business, students started to ask for extra copies for bosses, spouses and neighbors.
She said no. These were just class handouts for her students, after all.
One day, a student asked for a copy for his school age children. And before she could stop herself, she agreed.
This exchange began her journey into becoming an (accidental) author.
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Episode Transcript
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Max Chopovsky (00:02):
This is Moral of the Story interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, Max Trapowski.
Today's guest is University ofChicago professor Linda Ginzel,
who teaches managerialpsychology at the Booth School
of Business.
Linda was born in Seoul, SouthKorea, but as a military brat,
she was a citizen of the world,growing up in Germany before
(00:25):
moving to the US.
A hard worker since childhood,Linda got her first job at
Montgomery Ward For the youngermembers of our audience, that
was an OG department store backin the day followed by Stints as
a hair salon receptionist,apartment complex manager, life
insurance saleswoman, corporatetraining consultant and more.
By all accounts, Linda and herhusband Boaz lived a charmed
(00:46):
life and then tragedy struck.
In 1998, their son Danny wasstrangled by a portable crib
that had previously beenrecalled, but the tragedy was
avoidable.
Added insult to injury and everthe activist, Linda, along with
her husband, founded Kids inDanger, a nonprofit dedicated to
preventing other families fromsuffering the same fate through
(01:07):
education, industry training andadvocacy for improvements in
children's product safety.
Through their work, Linda andBoaz helped push the state of
Illinois in banning the sale ofrecalled children's products and
were instrumental in theenactment of the state's
Children's Product Safety Act in1999.
Meanwhile, Linda continued herrise through the ranks of
(01:28):
academia, teaching at Stanford'sGraduate School of Business and
Northwestern's Kellogg GraduateSchool of Business, and in 1992
, she took on her dream job as asenior lecturer in behavioral
science at Booth, where, amongher other accomplishments, she
established the corporateexecutive education program,
which now ranks number one inthe world for executive
(01:48):
education programs.
Linda does not shy away fromnovel approaches to teaching,
once climbing up onto a deskduring a lecture and continuing
to lecture while walking aroundthe room on top of all the desks
, just to illustrate the conceptof norms.
As if all of this was notenough, Linda also wrote a book,
Choosing Leadership, whichspent time on multiple
(02:08):
bestseller lists and wasfeatured on Forbes' Top Life and
Career Design Books to Planyour Year, and is now
incorporated into curriculums atIndiana University Morrer
School of Law.
Linda has earned dozens ofawards, including the Faculty
Excellence Award, Phoenix Award,which was voted by her students
as an impact professor andrecognized as a woman of
influence multiple years in arow.
(02:29):
Her most prestigious award isthe President's Service Award,
given by President Clinton forher work on Kids in Danger.
But, as Linda will tell you,her proudest academic
achievement is the AcademicExcellence Award given by
students enrolled in the Eveningand Weekend MBA programs at
Booth.
Linda, welcome to the show.
Linda Ginzel (02:48):
My goodness, max, I know that you do research on
your guests, but I want to tellyou, montgomery Ward, did you
read some article from mycollege?
Where did Montgomery Ward andhairstylist come from?
We dig very deep, my goodness,I'm very impressed.
So I thought, you know, Ilistened to you do the intro for
(03:10):
my friend well, several of myfriends you've had on your
podcast.
But Sunny, and Sunny said wheredid you find this out?
And I read, I heard that, and Ithought, well, if he says that
one of her goals was to readwithout a highlighter in her
hand, I will just fall overright there.
And so I thought you weregetting close to that statement
which I made, you know, when Iwas in my 20s, and I thought,
(03:31):
well, I'm honored, I'm flattered, I'm almost speechless, but
thank you so much for doing somuch research.
It's a very kind of you.
Max Chopovsky (03:39):
You're so welcome , and there's one part of your
bio that I forgot, which is itis one of Linda's goals to read
without a highlighter.
You are so good.
So you are here today to tellus a story before we get started
.
Is there anything that weshould know?
(04:00):
Do you want to set the stage?
Linda Ginzel (04:02):
I don't think so.
I think you set the stage verywell and I don't think I need to
say anything in advance.
Lovely.
Max Chopovsky (04:09):
All right, let's get into it.
Tell me a story.
Linda Ginzel (04:10):
Okay, I don't know if it's going to be a story,
but if I were to title thisstory I would call it the
accidental author and that wouldbe the title.
But the story is this.
So I am trained as anexperimental social psychologist
at Princeton and I was thefirst experimental social
(04:32):
psychologist to take a job in abusiness school.
Now now social psychologistsall are in business schools.
But then it was sort ofheretical.
She was just going to go teachexecutives how to manipulate
people and I'm like, no, I'mgoing to teach people how to use
science for good use socialpsychology to make a bigger
difference.
And I can do that in businessschools.
I can do that with people whogo to work the next day after I
(04:55):
teach them.
So management was my first love,and at Stanford I taught the
organizational behavior course,which is basically the basic
management course.
So I teach management.
I started the business.
You mentioned executiveeducation not the MBA, but the
executive education certificate,custom programs here and when I
(05:16):
went back to the faculty fulltime, I started teaching
negotiations and I'm an educator, that's my identity.
I'm a teacher.
So one day my dean asked tospeak to me and he says you know
, linda, we're thinking aboutmaybe putting a capstone
leadership class into theexecutive MBA program.
So this is a program we teachin, well, now, hong Kong, london
(05:38):
and Chicago.
It's 18 months.
It's a pretty lockstep.
And they want to add aleadership course at the end as
a capstone.
And I'm thinking, yeah, I tellthem.
I say you know, I don't thinkthat's a good idea, I really
don't think that's a good idea.
And he looked at me and saidwell, why don't you think about
that?
And I said, oh, you're notasking my opinion.
(05:59):
Oh, I see you want me to dothis.
Okay, that's different.
I mean I can do it.
I can do it, whether I thinkit's a good idea or not.
That's a whole other thing, butI can do it.
But I actually didn't know howhard it would be.
So I had put my toe inleadership.
Remember, my first love ismanagement, and management is
teach managerial psychology,founded in the basics of social
(06:22):
psychology.
It's conceptual.
But leadership, what isleadership?
Nobody knows what leadership isRight.
So I took on this task and youmentioned the fact that I have a
dead child.
Just like other people in thisworld, I have had my share of
difficult times.
(06:42):
Very few things keep me up atnight.
Trying to teach leadership withintegrity kept me up at night.
I read so much crap, so muchstuff.
That was horrible and I reallythought people will just sell
you anything you're willing tobuy and they call it leadership.
(07:04):
And what am I going to do?
I have to teach a leadershipclass at the Booth School.
What am I going to teach?
Everything was just gettingcrossed off my list, everything
I read.
I'm not going to put someonethere to some charismatic person
to model yourself after.
Be like this person.
I'm not going to have you havethese.
These are the attributes.
These are the five things.
(07:24):
I'm not going to teach thetheory of leadership.
I'm not going to teach thehistory of what am I going to
teach these people?
So I did the very best I couldand I told you I'm an educator,
right, I'm a teacher.
That's what I do and I thinkI'm a very good teacher.
And I put everything I had intothis class and I would give
myself a B plus.
(07:44):
Now, b plus is okay, but notfor me.
Putting everything I had intothis class and keeping me up at
night trying to figure out howdo I teach this course with
integrity.
So the next year I decided I amgoing to create a set of
handouts, a packet with thingsthat I say which people think
(08:07):
are kind of abstract and theydon't really get it in the
moment, but they'll be inwriting and they can go back to
it and they can see it and thinkabout it, and exercises and
activities that people can do ontheir own because we don't have
time to do them in class.
For example, there's no accepted, correct definition of
leadership.
I mean, you can borrowsomeone's definition or you can
do whatever you want, butthere's no.
(08:28):
This is definition.
So I want students to figureout for themselves what do they
think leadership is and startworking on your definition.
And it can change over time.
So there's a.
You know what's your zero draftdefinition of leadership?
What's your earliest leadershipexperience?
So all these things that wedidn't do in class but that I
thought would be helpful forthem outside of class, because
we can't do everything in class.
(08:49):
Well, the class took off thatyear.
It was like oh, this is whatyou're talking about, oh, that's
what you know this means.
So the students said could Iget an extra copy of this for my
boss?
My boss could really use this,could I get a copy for my spouse
, my neighbor?
And I'm like no, no, no, justhandouts, just handouts for my
(09:10):
students, only for my students.
It's just handouts.
But it was clearly working.
So the next year because I teachevery this class every year I
hired an editor and had itproofread and created a table of
contents and hired a designerand made a little booklet for my
(09:31):
students.
But it looked like a book, itwas a workbook and I was very
proud of these and I printedthem for the students and gave
them out.
And students were saying couldI get a copy of this?
My boss could no, no, no,they're just handouts, just for
my students.
And toward the end of class,one of my students said to me
(09:51):
now he's a Pakistani student andI don't know why, but it is
relevant to the story.
He said to me may I get twocopies of this for my high
school children?
And I found my mouth say yes.
And that's what happened andthat's how I became an
accidental author, because Ithought, linda, what are you an
(10:12):
idiot?
People are telling you this isuseful.
You're like no, no, no, no, no,just in my class, no, just for
this little narrow purpose, youknow, just for this.
And that's how I became anaccidental author.
I ended up thinking that ifhigh school children and
different people could find thisuseful, maybe I could have
reach outside my classroom and Ilove teaching and I love making
(10:33):
a difference and I'm kind of inthe penultimate chapter of my
career and this notion that Icould make a bigger difference
outside my classroom with highschool children and surgeons and
lawyers and stay at homeparents and soccer coaches was
just kind of amazing.
So I'm an accidental author,just like I'm an accidental
(10:56):
activist, wow.
Max Chopovsky (10:59):
Have you thought back to that time about what was
the source of the hesitationaround not wanting to release it
to a wider audience?
Linda Ginzel (11:11):
100 percent Because I had an episode years
earlier.
I teach executive education, soall these executives come to
Booth and I have them for threehours or two days or whatever.
When the students came up to mesome years ago and said, do you
have a book?
I'm like I don't have a book, Idon't need a book.
(11:34):
It's like I'm happy to justhave my efforts consumed in my
classroom by my students.
I actually thought it wasarrogant.
I actually thought it was notme.
I just didn't feel like it waswho I was.
I never set out to write a book.
People say best-selling author.
I look around the room who's abest-selling author?
(11:56):
That's just crazy.
It has something to do.
We were talking earlier aboutimmigrants and the first person
in my family to go to college.
I just didn't have this notionthat I had.
I don't know if it's not theright to do it, but it wasn't in
my consciousness, it wasn't inmy realm of possibilities, I
(12:17):
think that if you picked atrandom 10 students out of the
last five years of your class,because what you're exhibiting
is imposter syndrome when itcomes to being an author.
Max Chopovsky (12:33):
Who am I to write a book?
What qualifies me to write abook?
I just have this handbook thatI want to give to my students
and they're coming to you.
They're saying you should writea book.
You're like I don't know.
You should give more of theseout to other people.
I think that if you asked 10kids out of the last five years
of your class and if you pulledthem about your qualification to
(12:59):
write a book, the response ratewould be 10 out of 10, a
resounding yes, you should writea book.
Linda Ginzel (13:06):
I have to tell you , Max, I actually I love, I
think you're amazing and I loveyour insights, and when I'm
listening to your podcast I'malways almost as interested in
your insights as your guests.
But I got to tell you I thinkyou're wrong on this one.
Oh, okay, I'm a socialpsychologist.
I study imposter syndrome.
It's not that I don't think I'mworthy, it's just that it was
(13:27):
never a goal.
It was never in my.
I mean, why should I write abook?
What do I want to write a bookfor?
Why do I want to put my energyand effort to that?
What's it going to do?
I think I'm completelyqualified, I think I can do
anything I want to do, but itwasn't a goal to write a book.
It wasn't something that Ithought I should spend my time
on, and you may find this hardto believe, but I am very.
(13:49):
When I commit to doingsomething or I do it with all my
heart, with every bit of energy, and I think very carefully
what do I want to put my timeinto?
I honestly didn't realize thata book would have so much reach.
I thought it was like a vanityproject.
That's more of what I wastrying to say.
Max Chopovsky (14:05):
Interesting, so it was more about this.
Linda Ginzel (14:08):
isn't sort of the highest and best use of my time.
Who I am.
This is not who I am.
I'm not looking to be an author.
I'm looking to be a teacher andeducator.
I want to make a difference inpeople's lives, and I didn't
realize the book would be avehicle for that.
Max Chopovsky (14:22):
Interesting, interesting.
I do think that part of it wasif you were giving yourself
enough credit around theultimate reach of the book, then
maybe the decision might havebeen accelerated, right?
I mean, don't you think there'sa small part of that?
That?
It was kind of you thinking Iunderstand where you're coming
from, Like, hey, I don't want to.
There's a lot of things that Icould be doing in life and this
(14:44):
is just going to take a wholelot of effort, right, and if I'm
going to do it, I want to do itright.
I have the same approach toeverything I do, but I kind of
feel like I wonder if there's asmall part of you there that
thought that you kind ofunderestimated the demand for
your wisdom.
Linda Ginzel (14:58):
Well, that's also very kind of you to say.
I'm not sure it's my wisdom.
So I actually brought you acopy of the book, thank you.
And when you see the book youwill understand that it's not my
wisdom, it's yours.
The book is intended to be avehicle, a container for people
to capture their own knowledge,their own wisdom, in writing,
(15:19):
and then to share that knowledgeand wisdom with other people in
their community, at theirworkplace, in their home.
And my idea is that it'sindividual written reflection
plus collective wisdom, andthat's how we will all move up
the curve faster.
I call it being wiser younger.
So my goal is to help everyonebe wiser younger.
We all have more knowledge, andespecially when it comes to
(15:40):
leadership, I'm telling you noone knows the answer, no one
knows the definition ofleadership.
There's not a consent, it's nota discipline.
You know, I have a PhD inExperimental Social Psychology.
There's a body of knowledge.
There's a comprehensive exam.
You pass it, you get a PhD.
You know this discipline.
There's nothing.
I mean, you might get a PhD inleadership, but leadership is
not a discipline.
It's multidisciplinary, it'severything.
(16:02):
It's philosophy, it's religion,it's economics, it's everything
.
And so that's why people cancall whatever they do,
leadership and sell it andpeople buy it because they don't
know what it is and everybodywants it.
And so you know, people say,well, that's not what I thought
leadership was.
You know, that's not the courseI wanted in leadership.
I wanted this course.
And then they get that they'relike, oh no, that's not what I
(16:23):
wanted.
I wanted this because nobodyknows what it is, and so I think
it's that I should probablyhave as much right as anyone to
write a book on leadership,because look how many books on
leadership there are out thereand most of them are not very
good.
And so why would I contributeto that mess If I?
You know what I mean?
Like why would I want to put abook out there on leadership?
There's so much out therethat's so bad.
(16:43):
But this book is reallydifferent.
This is a workbook.
This is a book that you do.
You don't read this book, youdo it.
And so I brought you a book andmy inscription is Formax to
your future self.
I love that.
Max Chopovsky (16:58):
Thank you, that is so kind of you, it's so kind
of you, but you got to do thework.
Linda Ginzel (17:02):
It's not a book you read, it's a book you do.
Max Chopovsky (17:04):
I am not against doing the work.
That is one thing I'm notagainst.
I do think not because I wantto argue with a PhD in social
psychology.
I'll keep arguing.
I mean, we're in an academicsetting.
There's nothing wrong with alittle healthy debate.
There's a part of you thatthought, hey, there's so many
books out there, what could Ipossibly add to it?
Right, and I think that youjust weren't giving yourself
(17:27):
enough credit around what youcan add to the field because, to
your point, not all those booksare on best seller lists.
What is interesting to me isthat you are tackling a very
difficult issue, which is how doyou accelerate wisdom?
(17:48):
Because as we get older, weearn our wisdom through life
experiences and mistakes thatcost us something, and there's
probably some correlationbetween the magnitude of the
mistake and the impact it has onyou and how well you learn your
lesson right, Not always.
Linda Ginzel (18:07):
Sometimes it's the opposite.
If something's so big, youcould protect yourself from
learning the lessons because youcan't go there.
Max Chopovsky (18:13):
I could totally see that point.
I could see that point.
What you're trying to do,though, is you're trying to say
hey, I believe that people whoare younger also have wisdom to
share, 100%.
I mean, if you asked me when Iwas in my 20s, I would have told
you all the great things that Iam and all the wonderful
leadership traits that I have,and if you asked everyone around
me, they would have been likehe's actually a terrible leader
(18:36):
because he's the last person Iwould imagine to be a servant
leader.
Right, and servant leadershipwas not something that I learned
until I was a little bit laterin my career, because it was all
about, hey, I want to showeverybody that I should be
standing here in front of themand sort of leading them, but,
in reality, a good leader issomebody.
(18:57):
I'm speaking to the authorityon this, so please push back and
tell me where I'm wrong on this.
To me, a good leader issomebody who's almost elected by
the people, or at leastvalidated, right?
Because if you have somebodywho is CEO of a company and
they're not a great leader,people aren't gonna stay at that
company, so they might not haveelected them the way somebody
would elect a leaderdemocratically, but they
(19:17):
certainly have a choice as towhether they follow that person.
Linda Ginzel (19:21):
So servant leadership is one theory or one
angle of leadership.
There are thousands of anglesor theories or approaches to
what is leadership, and whathappens is that, depending on
what speaks to us individuallyour goals, our identity, our
(19:44):
context, we find differentapproaches to leadership, more
or less in line with what wethink.
So I don't think that servantleadership is the way to be a
leader.
Let me tell you what I think.
Okay, I think that there are alot of stereotypes out there
about what a leader looks like,about as you just said.
(20:06):
People would say you're not aleader because you were this way
or that way.
You would have thought that youwere a leader.
Just look at the word leader.
Tell you a small story.
I was asked to do a lunch forthe full-time MBA students, a
lunch talk and about helpingthem think about what they're
helping them to think, aboutinterviewing, and I thought well
(20:26):
, you know, they're probablygonna be asked about leadership
in these interviews that theytake, so I should get a sense
from them of what their answerwould be what's your definition
of leadership?
So, but instead of just askingthem that, I started with what I
thought would be a softball.
I said, okay, just sit for aminute and take your pen,
because I always think if youdon't write it down, it doesn't
exist.
If you don't write it down,it's a figment of your
(20:46):
imagination.
If you write it down, itbecomes data.
Data is observable to the selfand others and you can collect
it.
You can organize it.
So always you write things downin my class Welcome to my
classroom, max, and yourlisteners Happy to be here.
So I started with a softball andI said so.
What I'd like you to do is, youknow, talk to your neighbor,
talk to the person next to youabout your earliest leadership
(21:08):
experience.
What is the earliest time thatyou remember exhibiting or
engaging in leadership behavior?
Silence, silence.
These are MBAs at the BoothSchool of Business.
These are accomplished youngadults.
Silence, and I'm like a coupleminutes.
Let's take a couple minutes here, and I'm thinking, and so I say
(21:31):
what's going on?
You know, it was like literallyjust the beginning of this and
one of the women raised her handand she said well, I haven't
really had a chance to lead,I've just been a manager.
And I thought, oh my gosh, ifthese students, if my
accomplished amazing, changedthe world.
Already students think thatthey haven't led yet.
(21:52):
What do they think leadershipmeans?
What is their definition ofleadership?
And I have found that peoplehave these definitions that are
so inhibiting.
They inhibit their choices andthen they inhibit the choices of
others.
And so that was my epiphany ofpeople have to come up with
their own definition ofleadership.
And your definition is aslegitimate as mine.
(22:13):
And people are like well, youknow, I don't know, I have to
fake it till I make it.
I said, fine, just don't fakeit too long.
You know, figure it out, figureout what it is about you that
gets people to wanna follow you,and it can be as unique as the
number of people in this room.
It makes me crazy when we havethese books that say be a Q4
leader, be a X, y, you know whatare you talking about.
(22:34):
Even be a servant leader, Imean that doesn't work for all
people, in all situations, forall time.
If you wanna be a servantleader, then you should be a
servant leader, but it doesn'tmean that other people should
say that's my aspiration.
I wanna be that Because I thinkthat it's more complicated than
that.
Leadership is more complicatedthan that.
I'm even trying.
(22:54):
You know, don Quixote, how hehas the windmill and he fights.
I mean how he has the sword andhe fights windmills.
That's me, I'm Don Quixote.
I am trying to stop the use ofthe term leader.
I'm trying not to use the wordleader and I try to have my
students not use the word leader.
Try to use the words to manageand to lead as verbs, and then
(23:18):
you need a new noun for lead forthe category right.
So I used to use executivebecause I teach executives, but
then with the book you knowwe're teaching, we're using this
book with high school studentsin prisons, in workplaces, and
people don't identify withthemselves as an executive.
(23:40):
People think an executive is ifyou're in the C-suite, and this
book is not only not maybe even, but it should be for people in
the C-suite.
This book is for you, this bookis for everyone.
So I had to come up with a newlabel and I was having a really
hard time.
You know there are so manystories embedded within stories
(24:00):
I want to tell you.
I had a hard time thinking whatstory am I going to tell today?
I really did, and now this ismy third story that I'm about
ready to tell you.
You're going to have to cut meoff.
So Richard Thaler, the NobelLaureate, he's my senior
colleague.
He's a great man and he was sokind and generous of his time.
He gave me handwritten commentson the first four chapters of
(24:23):
my book, but he took a long timebecause he's busy and he gave
it to me like right when I wasdue.
I had to turn it in.
And so he says you know, yougot to lose executive.
You got to lose executiveBecause these people, if you're
writing for them, they're notgoing to identify as executives.
I'm like, yeah, but let me tellyou, I have searched high and
low.
There is not another label.
And besides, I'm using the wordexecutive, like Drucker.
(24:45):
Anyone who's responsible forthe performance outcomes of
their organization is anexecutive.
And me, linda Ginzel, I'm anexecutive, I'm responsible for
the performance outcomes of myorganization.
And he said Linda, people wouldlook at you and they'll say
she's a leader, but no one wouldsay she's an executive.
You got to lose executive andI'm like well, I got this
deadline and I got to turn thisbook in.
He's like buy tomorrow, give me10 words to substitute for
(25:06):
executive or for leader.
For executive.
Oh, max, that's the Thalerassignment.
You know the homeworkassignment.
My kids play baseball.
I was talking to the baseballmoms.
We were coming up with wordslike servant leadership came up,
guide, advocate, actor.
Horrible, horrible, horrible,horrible words.
(25:27):
It's nighttime, I'm Googling,I'm synonyming, I can't find
anything.
I find five words that I canput in an email to him that I'm
not like, completely embarrassedof.
And he writes back and he sayschampion, champion's your word.
He's like, not in the sense ofnumber one or winner, but in the
sense of to champion, a causeto advocate.
And so I did a global searchand replace that day 44
(25:51):
instances of executive forchampion.
And I have not fully embracedchampion yet, but I'm really
trying hard to say Max, you area champion, you are champion
Most of the time you aremanaging.
Managing is when you're in thepresent, right now, my dear, you
are managing, you're recordingthis.
You're getting the job done,you're in the present, your feet
(26:11):
are on the ground, you knowwhat to do.
You're getting it done right,whether for other people it's
making sure we have diapers inthe house or meeting the streets
expectations.
And as Sunny Garg told you Ijust listened to the podcast he
did with you he's one of myfavorite people said management
is noble.
Management is what allows us tolive our dreams, to go on
(26:33):
vacation, to buy those home, tosend our children to college.
So don't let anyone ever tellyou that management is not as
important as leadership, it'sjust different.
So you're a champion and rightnow you are managing.
Most of the time, it doesn'tmatter what your title is,
you're managing, you have,you're in the present, you're
getting things done.
You can be getting them donethrough other people, but you're
still managing.
(26:55):
Once in a while, max and you'vedone this already in your past
and you probably do it daily tosome degree you'll make a choice
to leave the present and to goto a place it doesn't exist,
which is the future, becauseusually you go there because of
some dissatisfaction with thepresent.
There's something about thepresent that and they call that
(27:17):
a vision, you know, vision of abetter tomorrow.
So you have a vision and youfeel so confident in your vision
that you want to leave thestability of your feet on the
ground, go to a place it doesn'texist, unchartered.
And you have to believe sostrongly in that vision and you
have to have the commitment ofthe people who follow you,
(27:40):
because you might be taking themover a cliff.
You've never been to the future, you don't know where you're
going, you just believe and theybelieve in you.
That's when you make the choiceto lead, and it can be
leadership with a lower case L,a small, or it can be leadership
with a capital L.
That's another stereotype.
Everyone thinks leadership hasto be big, transformational
leadership where you're notleading, and I think that's also
(28:02):
an inhibiting notion of thedefinition of leadership.
So my idea is that when youmost of the time so, there's a
map.
When you are in the present,there's a map.
And when you go, when you makethe choice to leave the
stability of the present, go tothe future, it's a compass
because the terrain is unchartedand all you can do is have a
sense of direction.
And that's my theory, that's myway I think about leadership
(28:24):
and I'm trying so hard to stopusing the word leader and
manager, Her voice rings in myear.
I'm not a leader, I've onlybeen a manager.
Max Chopovsky (28:36):
That's a good mantra to keep repeating to
yourself as a reminder of howimportant this is.
It made me think of this kindof framework that I had when I
was in college.
It was, and I remember, writingit down on my weekly list of
goals and the schedule that Iwould have.
It was VSTT.
(28:56):
So it goes from the big pictureto the small picture Vision,
strategy, tactics, tasks.
Each one will be broken downinto the components of the next
level, and that was my, you know, sort of attempt at taking a
(29:20):
vision, which we ascribe thesegrandiose meanings to that word,
because it is this ambitioussort of quest to make a big
difference in something.
It's vision right the way thatjust sounds grand and that makes
it less approachable.
(29:40):
And so, as you, at some pointyou have to connect the compass
to the map.
So my thought was well, avision is supported by a
strategy to achieve that vision,and then that strategy is
supported by tactics.
But even the tactics could be alittle bit much to bite off.
So if we can break that downinto tasks, then we can look at
(30:06):
a marathon that you want to runand say, well, today I'm going
to run a half a mile, and so youtake that vision of.
I did my first triathlon thissummer.
Linda Ginzel (30:18):
Congratulations.
Max Chopovsky (30:19):
Thank you.
And I'd never done a triathlon.
I said, you know, I'm going todo an Olympic tri because my
buddy talked me into it and thevision was to do a triathlon
right, but taking it all the waydown into the smallest possible
component of it.
It's now that I have thistraining plan, which would have
been sort of the strategy.
(30:39):
The tactic would be to get mytime to a certain point in each
of the three disciplines andthen the task is I'm going to
run a half a mile, I'm going toswim 200 meters.
It starts small, right, so it'sinteresting that you talk about
it in that context.
That's kind of how I thoughtabout it when I was younger.
Linda Ginzel (31:00):
Well, let me tell you you are ahead of your time,
or ahead of the curve, becausethis is called.
You even called it a framework.
So I teach executives how tocreate frameworks like the one
you just talked about, in orderto take something abstract and
take it down, what I call it onthe mezzanine.
So there's the abstract.
You know, 30,000 feet Like.
(31:22):
My favorite abstraction is wehave to align individual and
corporate goals.
You got that, max, we're goingto align individual and
corporate goals and it's like,oh yeah, that sounds good.
What it means, nobody knows.
So that's 30,000 feet.
That's too abstract.
And then the other extreme istoo concrete.
We're just in the muck, you'rein the mud, you just can't see
the forest with the trees,you're just.
So each of us kind of defaultsto either abstract or concrete,
(31:45):
and my idea is that we bring itto the mezzo level, the sweet
spot where it's abstract enoughto be generalizable but concrete
enough to be actionable.
And that's what you did.
You created your own frameworkin order to come down from this
abstract place to this mezzolevel, to this sweet spot where
you can actually use it and it'sgeneralizable.
(32:07):
So your framework is like thekind of framework I teach my
students to create which isuseful outside a given situation
.
Right, so you can use it forany situation.
But this is how you manageambiguity.
People are like I don't knowwhat to do.
You know, I don't know what todo.
If you have structure, you know.
If the teacher gives you arubric and says this is how,
this is what we're going tograde you on, you can do that.
(32:29):
Right, you're smart.
All my students can do that.
When I tell them you createyour own rubric, they're like
huh, but this is how you canmanage ambiguity.
So one of my students told meshe got this big job as a like.
I don't know.
Talent scout recruiter I don'tknow.
And she said you know what thesecompanies are looking for.
They're looking for executiveswho can manage ambiguity.
(32:50):
And they can't find them.
And I thought this is my fault.
Do you know?
It's partly my fault.
You know how many thousands ofexecutives I teach every year
and they can't find executiveswho can manage ambiguity.
What are we as educators doingwrong?
So I started teaching in myleadership capital.
I call it leadership capital toecho human capital and social
(33:13):
capital.
I have my students create atleast two frameworks to practice
managing ambiguity, so thatthey understand that you know
there's no ambiguity if yourboss or your teacher, whatever
gives you the framework.
When you don't aren't given theframework, you have to create
your own and you have to getcomfortable.
My hope is that students willget comfortable creating
frameworks, but you did it apriority and maybe some people
(33:36):
do it, but many of my studentsdon't.
Max Chopovsky (33:38):
Well, I'm a chronic overthinker, so I think
this is a byproduct of it.
But I think, to take it onestep further, I think maybe what
some educators are doing wrongis eliminating all the ambiguity
which is exactly what you'resaying by giving them the
rubrics.
That takes all the guessworkout of it.
I would take it a step furtherand say actually, people should
understand that life isambiguous.
(34:00):
We don't have the answersbecause things could change
tomorrow.
Right, like we were talkingabout this before we started
recording, a few thousand peoplewent to a rave in Southern
Israel.
Right, they had no idea whatwas gonna happen the next
morning.
Right, they had no clue.
I think part of this is just myhumble opinion, but I feel like
(34:25):
part of getting older and wiseris the ability to tolerate
ambiguity, because someambiguity you just can't get rid
of.
You could put togetherframeworks and rubrics and
that'll address some things, butmy sort of trajectory
personally has been to try totolerate ambiguity and
(34:47):
understand that I will notalways have the answers and I
will never have all the answers.
Right, and there's adistinction there.
Right, like, I'm never gonnahave all the answers and I will
always not have all the answers.
You know what I'm saying.
That's the part that I think isthe biggest challenge is how do
we raise a generation?
(35:07):
This is a massive question, buthow do we raise a generation of
people who understand thatambiguity is a part of life and
you manage what you manage andthings you can't control.
You just have to understandthat that's a part of the sort
of human condition.
Linda Ginzel (35:20):
Well, first I would tell you that I'm doing my
best.
I just started teaching collegestudents at the University of
Chicago three years ago.
So I've taught MBAs andexecutive MBAs my entire career
and now I'm going younger andstarting with the college
students, and I also havecreated curricula for high
school students.
So I'm doing my best to goyounger and start this process
(35:43):
sooner, I would tell you.
Just listening to you, you saidtolerate, and I think that that
is a base goal.
I would have the goal toembrace.
Yes, exactly Okay, becausetolerate makes it sound like a
negative thing that we have todo, whereas embrace is a
positive thing that we canaspire to.
(36:03):
So what I'm thinking is thatthere's something I teach in my
class.
It's called the zygarnic effect.
So Bluma Zygarnic was apsychologist and you've
experienced the zygarnic effectanytime.
You are not finished withsomething and you're doing a big
project at work and you're inthe shower and you're not
thinking about it, but all of asudden an idea comes to you or
you're asleep and you wake upand you have that pad next to
(36:25):
you and you write down the notesbecause so that's zygarnic.
It's kind of like.
I think of it as like the.
It's like running in the backof your mind.
You're not conscious of it, butevery once in a while.
Now, the definition of thezygarnic effect is things that
are incomplete are more activein our mind, in our memory.
So once you put a ribbon onsomething and put it away, it's
finished.
My hope for you, and forsociety perhaps, is to let
(36:53):
zygarnic be with you, to nothave to rush to closure.
We have to close.
We're not amoebas.
We can't live without structurewe have to figure it out.
We can't just be in thissemi-solid state.
But uncertainty, ambiguity,lack of closure, if it's
negative it can be anxiety, ifit's positive it can be creative
(37:16):
tension.
And so how do we getcomfortable, how do we get used
to feeling that physiological,psychological tension and label
it more positively so that wecan at least maybe harness the
energy that comes from theincompleteness, from the
uncertainty, from the unknown?
(37:36):
So my hope for you, max, andmaybe for the listeners, is may
zygarnic be with you and may youfeel more and more comfortable
with the lack of closure anduncertainty.
That can also be very creativeand not necessarily
anxiety-provoking.
Max Chopovsky (37:56):
That's a lofty goal.
That's a lofty goal because itgoes against a lot of human
nature, which is to label thingsand have answers, and that's
just not something we can do.
A lot of the time, we talkedabout how leadership is
different for every person and,being someone who studies this
and has written about itextensively, what do you think
(38:20):
makes you an effective championof your disciples, your students
, the people that you lead?
Linda Ginzel (38:30):
That's a great question.
I mean, if you asked mystudents, they would tell you my
passion, because I reallybelieve.
I mean I told you my first jobwas in a business school.
No one went to business schools.
That was like crazy.
I wanted so much to make adifference in people's lives,
for them to take action withknowledge, not just to pour
knowledge into their head.
(38:51):
So I believe 100% and I'll tellyou, I tell my students look, I
can't behave for you, but theonly way you're gonna improve
your outcomes is by changingyour behavior.
So everything we do in thisclass is geared towards you
figuring out what you're gonnado with this knowledge.
All right, so knowledge is likebutter in the hot sun you can
collect it all you want and itcan just go away.
(39:12):
You can collect it, you candisplay it, you can dust it off,
you can.
But what we have to do is thinkabout what is the link to
action, and that is unique foreach person.
So I think it's my focus onchanging behavior and believing
very strongly that I can helpyou do that.
I can't act for you, but I willencourage you, I will motivate
(39:32):
you, I will surprise you, I willhelp you practice in my
classroom and then kick you inthe pants and send you out the
door.
That's probably mostly it.
I think it's also that I'm amom and being a mom is a really
big part of my identity, and Ithink the students know that I'm
real, that I care for theirgrowth, that I really really do
(39:53):
and that I tell them look, I gota lot of things to do with my
time.
If I didn't believe I could helpyou, change your behavior and
improve your outcomes, I'd go dosomething else today.
So I don't wanna waste yourtime or mine.
My time's precious too, and somaybe it's just that they
believe me and because theybelieve me, they listen to me
and because I mean it, but theyhave to be at a place where they
(40:13):
wanna listen.
Not everybody wants to go there, not everybody, you know.
Some people just want theanswers Like give me the bullets
, give me the definition, checkoff the boxes here, and I have
to wait for those people to comearound because they're not
really ready, and it's not afunction of age, it's not always
a function of age.
Max Chopovsky (40:34):
That's true.
I think it's not a bad rule ofthumb, but you're right.
They want you to think for them.
Linda Ginzel (40:41):
They want answers.
And people are like you're theprofessor, we're paying you.
What are you kidding me?
I'm supposed to come up with myown definition.
I'm like, yeah, that's right.
Like this just doesn't make anysense, you know, because it's
not an equation, that you havean answer, it's not an algorithm
.
It has to be about you or it'snot yours.
Like I said, you can borrowsomebody else's definition and
(41:03):
I'll tell you the whole thingabout leadership.
You know, I talk to people whodo leadership for a living.
One I said to this one man.
I said so what's yourdefinition?
Ask people what theirdefinition of leadership is.
It's fascinating.
This person said well, it'smotivating others to pursue a
goal or two.
It's basically energizing andmotivating people.
And I'm like and how's thatdifferent from management?
And this is a guy who gets paidto do leadership, consulting.
(41:25):
And he looked at me and saidwell, I guess it isn't.
I'm like so what is leadership?
Give me a break, you know, Imean people.
Just, it makes me crazy.
So it's that I really believewhat I'm doing.
I believe that I don't have theanswers that you do.
And it's OK.
You can pay a professor, youcan pay a guru, you can pay
people.
That's great, but in additionto that, you have to do the work
(41:46):
.
You have to realize that youhave wisdom and knowledge, and
so do other people, and that youhave to decide what's relevant
for you, and it doesn't comeprepackaged.
Max Chopovsky (41:56):
That's true.
That's true.
You have to get to the otherside of discomfort to get to
your unique answer you have tocreate your own bullets.
Linda Ginzel (42:04):
Basically, that's right.
Max Chopovsky (42:05):
That's right.
So, as you think back to yourstory about being an accidental
author, what, looking back on itis the moral of that story.
Linda Ginzel (42:13):
I was prepared for this question, oh good.
The moral of the accidentalauthor is that sometimes choices
that are made for you by othersturn out to be better than the
choices you might have made foryourself.
I would not have taught thatleadership class, I would not
(42:34):
have made that a book, because Ihad a narrower view of what was
possible.
And sometimes people aredisappointed at the university.
They don't get tenure, theythink they failed.
Then they go to anotheruniversity where they fit better
and they're so happy.
So sometimes the choices wedon't make for ourselves can be
(42:57):
better than the choices we do.
That's interesting.
Max Chopovsky (43:00):
That also requires being open to other
people's observations andcommentary and leaving your ego
at the door, because otherwiseyou would say, well, why would
they know what's best for me?
Linda Ginzel (43:17):
Well, I was dragged kicking and screaming
into leadership.
I did not go willingly.
I did not go willingly and lookwhat happened.
Now I'm a leadership person.
How is that even possible?
Like in what universe is LindaGinzel the person that people
ask about leadership?
Here I am, max, and you'redoing it.
Max Chopovsky (43:32):
This is what I'm saying.
I think that you don't giveyourself enough credit.
There are a lot of things thatyou could be doing with your
time, but I think that it'sabout time that you recognize
just how deserving you are ofall the honors you've gotten.
Linda Ginzel (43:45):
Thank you.
Thank you, max, of course.
Max Chopovsky (43:47):
Of course, you tell stories for a living.
Linda Ginzel (43:51):
You've told multiple stories just in the
last 40 minutes.
Max Chopovsky (43:56):
What, in your mind, makes for a good story?
Linda Ginzel (44:00):
I listen to the moth and I am just blown away by
these stories and I don't knowwhat is the gist.
I don't know what is theessence of a good story.
Maybe because sometimes it'ssurprise, sometimes it's humor,
sometimes it's coming back tothe beginning and wrapping it up
.
I think it has to be somethingthat is meaningful to the
(44:25):
storyteller and I think thatthat's different for everyone,
so maybe that's not a goodanswer for you, but I think that
what makes a good story is thatyou tell something because it's
meaningful to you and thenother people see that and it
somehow becomes meaningful forthem.
Max Chopovsky (44:45):
Well, I think it's very on brand for you to
give that answer, because it isvery much in line with your
philosophy that there is no onesize fits all.
So I like that.
Do you think that every storyhas to have a moral, and if it
doesn't, is it still a goodstory?
Linda Ginzel (45:05):
My gut is yes, as long as people are engaged in
listening, they're going to comeup with what the meaning is for
them, and if it's not a goodstory, then they've stopped
listening and they're not goingto come up with it.
So a good story.
You have to listen, you have towant to listen and maybe you
have to want to listen to theend.
Max Chopovsky (45:24):
Yeah, there is a book called 4,000 Weeks and the
author of the book because hisname is Oliver I don't know his
last name, but he was in apodcast that I listened to by
Peter Atia called the Drive, andhe makes this really
interesting point about how wewant every hour that we spend to
(45:49):
be filled with the mostprofound experiences, whether
it's making the mostunforgettable memories or coming
up with something incrediblycreative or solving some really
complicated problem, and whatmost people don't realize,
especially people who are superADD achievers like me or kind of
(46:13):
overachievers total type Acomplete type A is sometimes you
have to let go of that control,of the need for control,
embrace the ambiguity andunderstand that some of the best
experiences come fromspontaneity and come from an
(46:34):
unexpected place.
Linda Ginzel (46:35):
Choices you might not have made for yourself 100%,
100%.
Max Chopovsky (46:39):
Yes, man, I love how that loop back to your
philosophy because it's true.
He says you have to be willingto waste time in order to have a
meaningful experience, and thatis so hard for some people to
get their minds around Likewaste time.
I don't have a lot of time, Imean waste time.
Linda Ginzel (46:58):
Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency Totally.
Max Chopovsky (47:01):
But sometimes you just have to go for a walk
along the river, sometimes youjust have to sit and look at the
lake or look up and look atwhat kind of cloud formations
are in the sky, and that mightseem so, that might be anathema
to so many people's philosophiesthat are rooted in, yeah, these
incredibly high efficiencies,like everything has to be tied
(47:23):
to a goal, but sometimes youjust have to let go.
You just have to let go.
You wrote a book that was me.
I know it's almost like it wasan accident.
Now you also have done a ton ofreading, I'm sure, countless
and countless books.
What is one book besides yoursthat you feel gets storytelling
(47:48):
right?
That just nails it.
Linda Ginzel (47:51):
Wow, it would depend on your definition of
storytelling.
Martin Luther King by JonathanEyck blows me away, by the way.
I want you to interview him onyour podcast.
He's a Chicago author,bestselling author.
He's unbelievable.
I would love it.
I love everything he's written.
His most recent is MartinLuther King.
But that's a type ofstorytelling.
(48:13):
It's like a, you know, it'slike nonfiction, it's that kind
of storytelling.
Now that I'm thinking about it,I think I like that kind of
storytelling.
So I also like historicalfiction.
I just read Killer Angels.
Do you know this book?
I do not, so I don't rememberthe author.
He's a, I think this onePulitzer Prize.
(48:36):
It's about the Battle ofGettysburg and it's another book
that I would say getsstorytelling right.
But Jonathan's my favoriteauthor.
Killer Angels captivated me ina way that most books don't,
except if they're written byJonathan.
Max Chopovsky (48:55):
Of course, of course, all right.
Last question for you.
Okay, if you had a few minuteswith 20 year old Linda, what
would you say to her.
Linda Ginzel (49:10):
Be kinder to your parents, younger.
I didn't appreciate.
My parents are very, verystrict, and I didn't appreciate
my parents until I was in myforties, and then it was pretty
late.
Be kinder to your parents,younger.
Good advice.
Max Chopovsky (49:32):
That's good advice.
It is, I will say, I think, apart of every human's trajectory
to really be able to appreciatetheir parents when they get
older and when they themselvesbecome parents, because then
they see the other side of it.
And it was very hard for me toreally understand the
(49:53):
complexities of parenthood andall of the competing priorities
and, frankly, the sense of nothaving it all figured out while
needing to look like thechampion to your children, until
I myself had children and knewthat and realized that, you know
, on one hand, they need to seeme as the fearless leader that
(50:17):
has their back and has all theanswers, while at the same time
understanding that I absolutelydo not have all the answers.
And how do I impart lessons tomy kids while knowing that I
don't have all the answers?
And it's hard, and I think thatit's going to be, you know, the
same story arc with my kids,which is it might take time for
(50:40):
them to understand.
Oh, got it, he had a lot goingon and he did his best, right.
But sometimes we don'tappreciate them till we're older
, until they're older, and thenin that case you just don't have
as much time left with them.
There's a saying I'm sure you'veheard this that you get 19
years with your kids.
Have you heard this?
You get 19 years with your kids.
(51:01):
The first 18 are when they'rein the house and the 19th year
is every moment after thatbecause they move out, right.
And then how often are yougoing to see them?
And if you look at it from theother perspective, it's like,
yeah, you get 19 years with yourparents, right, and if you're
out of the house, you're on that19th year.
Linda Ginzel (51:20):
So that's beautiful, and you just
described parenting as theultimate active leadership.
Max Chopovsky (51:26):
Totally, totally.
We do learn to be betterchampions when we become parents
.
Well, that does it, lindaGinzel, author, professor and
very thoughtful human being.
Thank you for being on the show.
Linda Ginzel (51:42):
My pleasure.
Thank you for the honor.
Max Chopovsky (51:44):
Of course.
Of course, the honor was allmine For show notes and more.
Head over to maspodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was more of the story.
I'm Max Trapowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
This is Moral of the Story interesting people
telling their favorite shortstories and then breaking them
down to understand what makesthem so good.
I'm your host, Max Trapowski.
Today's guest is University ofChicago professor Linda Ginzel,
who teaches managerialpsychology at the Booth School
of Business.
Linda was born in Seoul, SouthKorea, but as a military brat,
she was a citizen of the world,growing up in Germany before
(00:25):
moving to the US.
A hard worker since childhood,Linda got her first job at
Montgomery Ward For the youngermembers of our audience, that
was an OG department store backin the day followed by Stints as
a hair salon receptionist,apartment complex manager, life
insurance saleswoman, corporatetraining consultant and more.
By all accounts, Linda and herhusband Boaz lived a charmed
(00:46):
life and then tragedy struck.
In 1998, their son Danny wasstrangled by a portable crib
that had previously beenrecalled, but the tragedy was
avoidable.
Added insult to injury and everthe activist, Linda, along with
her husband, founded Kids inDanger, a nonprofit dedicated to
preventing other families fromsuffering the same fate through
(01:07):
education, industry training andadvocacy for improvements in
children's product safety.
Through their work, Linda andBoaz helped push the state of
Illinois in banning the sale ofrecalled children's products and
were instrumental in theenactment of the state's
Children's Product Safety Act in1999.
Meanwhile, Linda continued herrise through the ranks of
(01:28):
academia, teaching at Stanford'sGraduate School of Business and
Northwestern's Kellogg GraduateSchool of Business, and in 1992
, she took on her dream job as asenior lecturer in behavioral
science at Booth, where, amongher other accomplishments, she
established the corporateexecutive education program,
which now ranks number one inthe world for executive
(01:48):
education programs.
Linda does not shy away fromnovel approaches to teaching,
once climbing up onto a deskduring a lecture and continuing
to lecture while walking aroundthe room on top of all the desks
, just to illustrate the conceptof norms.
As if all of this was notenough, Linda also wrote a book,
Choosing Leadership, whichspent time on multiple
(02:08):
bestseller lists and wasfeatured on Forbes' Top Life and
Career Design Books to Planyour Year, and is now
incorporated into curriculums atIndiana University Morrer
School of Law.
Linda has earned dozens ofawards, including the Faculty
Excellence Award, Phoenix Award,which was voted by her students
as an impact professor andrecognized as a woman of
influence multiple years in arow.
(02:29):
Her most prestigious award isthe President's Service Award,
given by President Clinton forher work on Kids in Danger.
But, as Linda will tell you,her proudest academic
achievement is the AcademicExcellence Award given by
students enrolled in the Eveningand Weekend MBA programs at
Booth.
Linda, welcome to the show.
Linda Ginzel (02:48):
My goodness, max, I know that you do research on
your guests, but I want to tellyou, montgomery Ward, did you
read some article from mycollege?
Where did Montgomery Ward andhairstylist come from?
We dig very deep, my goodness,I'm very impressed.
So I thought, you know, Ilistened to you do the intro for
(03:10):
my friend well, several of myfriends you've had on your
podcast.
But Sunny, and Sunny said wheredid you find this out?
And I read, I heard that, and Ithought, well, if he says that
one of her goals was to readwithout a highlighter in her
hand, I will just fall overright there.
And so I thought you weregetting close to that statement
which I made, you know, when Iwas in my 20s, and I thought,
(03:31):
well, I'm honored, I'm flattered, I'm almost speechless, but
thank you so much for doing somuch research.
It's a very kind of you.
Max Chopovsky (03:39):
You're so welcome , and there's one part of your
bio that I forgot, which is itis one of Linda's goals to read
without a highlighter.
You are so good.
So you are here today to tellus a story before we get started
.
Is there anything that weshould know?
(04:00):
Do you want to set the stage?
Linda Ginzel (04:02):
I don't think so.
I think you set the stage verywell and I don't think I need to
say anything in advance.
Lovely.
Max Chopovsky (04:09):
All right, let's get into it.
Tell me a story.
Linda Ginzel (04:10):
Okay, I don't know if it's going to be a story,
but if I were to title thisstory I would call it the
accidental author and that wouldbe the title.
But the story is this.
So I am trained as anexperimental social psychologist
at Princeton and I was thefirst experimental social
(04:32):
psychologist to take a job in abusiness school.
Now now social psychologistsall are in business schools.
But then it was sort ofheretical.
She was just going to go teachexecutives how to manipulate
people and I'm like, no, I'mgoing to teach people how to use
science for good use socialpsychology to make a bigger
difference.
And I can do that in businessschools.
I can do that with people whogo to work the next day after I
(04:55):
teach them.
So management was my first love,and at Stanford I taught the
organizational behavior course,which is basically the basic
management course.
So I teach management.
I started the business.
You mentioned executiveeducation not the MBA, but the
executive education certificate,custom programs here and when I
(05:16):
went back to the faculty fulltime, I started teaching
negotiations and I'm an educator, that's my identity.
I'm a teacher.
So one day my dean asked tospeak to me and he says you know
, linda, we're thinking aboutmaybe putting a capstone
leadership class into theexecutive MBA program.
So this is a program we teachin, well, now, hong Kong, london
(05:38):
and Chicago.
It's 18 months.
It's a pretty lockstep.
And they want to add aleadership course at the end as
a capstone.
And I'm thinking, yeah, I tellthem.
I say you know, I don't thinkthat's a good idea, I really
don't think that's a good idea.
And he looked at me and saidwell, why don't you think about
that?
And I said, oh, you're notasking my opinion.
(05:59):
Oh, I see you want me to dothis.
Okay, that's different.
I mean I can do it.
I can do it, whether I thinkit's a good idea or not.
That's a whole other thing, butI can do it.
But I actually didn't know howhard it would be.
So I had put my toe inleadership.
Remember, my first love ismanagement, and management is
teach managerial psychology,founded in the basics of social
(06:22):
psychology.
It's conceptual.
But leadership, what isleadership?
Nobody knows what leadership isRight.
So I took on this task and youmentioned the fact that I have a
dead child.
Just like other people in thisworld, I have had my share of
difficult times.
(06:42):
Very few things keep me up atnight.
Trying to teach leadership withintegrity kept me up at night.
I read so much crap, so muchstuff.
That was horrible and I reallythought people will just sell
you anything you're willing tobuy and they call it leadership.
(07:04):
And what am I going to do?
I have to teach a leadershipclass at the Booth School.
What am I going to teach?
Everything was just gettingcrossed off my list, everything
I read.
I'm not going to put someonethere to some charismatic person
to model yourself after.
Be like this person.
I'm not going to have you havethese.
These are the attributes.
These are the five things.
(07:24):
I'm not going to teach thetheory of leadership.
I'm not going to teach thehistory of what am I going to
teach these people?
So I did the very best I couldand I told you I'm an educator,
right, I'm a teacher.
That's what I do and I thinkI'm a very good teacher.
And I put everything I had intothis class and I would give
myself a B plus.
(07:44):
Now, b plus is okay, but notfor me.
Putting everything I had intothis class and keeping me up at
night trying to figure out howdo I teach this course with
integrity.
So the next year I decided I amgoing to create a set of
handouts, a packet with thingsthat I say which people think
(08:07):
are kind of abstract and theydon't really get it in the
moment, but they'll be inwriting and they can go back to
it and they can see it and thinkabout it, and exercises and
activities that people can do ontheir own because we don't have
time to do them in class.
For example, there's no accepted, correct definition of
leadership.
I mean, you can borrowsomeone's definition or you can
do whatever you want, butthere's no.
(08:28):
This is definition.
So I want students to figureout for themselves what do they
think leadership is and startworking on your definition.
And it can change over time.
So there's a.
You know what's your zero draftdefinition of leadership?
What's your earliest leadershipexperience?
So all these things that wedidn't do in class but that I
thought would be helpful forthem outside of class, because
we can't do everything in class.
(08:49):
Well, the class took off thatyear.
It was like oh, this is whatyou're talking about, oh, that's
what you know this means.
So the students said could Iget an extra copy of this for my
boss?
My boss could really use this,could I get a copy for my spouse
, my neighbor?
And I'm like no, no, no, justhandouts, just handouts for my
(09:10):
students, only for my students.
It's just handouts.
But it was clearly working.
So the next year because I teachevery this class every year I
hired an editor and had itproofread and created a table of
contents and hired a designerand made a little booklet for my
(09:31):
students.
But it looked like a book, itwas a workbook and I was very
proud of these and I printedthem for the students and gave
them out.
And students were saying couldI get a copy of this?
My boss could no, no, no,they're just handouts, just for
my students.
And toward the end of class,one of my students said to me
(09:51):
now he's a Pakistani student andI don't know why, but it is
relevant to the story.
He said to me may I get twocopies of this for my high
school children?
And I found my mouth say yes.
And that's what happened andthat's how I became an
accidental author, because Ithought, linda, what are you an
(10:12):
idiot?
People are telling you this isuseful.
You're like no, no, no, no, no,just in my class, no, just for
this little narrow purpose, youknow, just for this.
And that's how I became anaccidental author.
I ended up thinking that ifhigh school children and
different people could find thisuseful, maybe I could have
reach outside my classroom and Ilove teaching and I love making
(10:33):
a difference and I'm kind of inthe penultimate chapter of my
career and this notion that Icould make a bigger difference
outside my classroom with highschool children and surgeons and
lawyers and stay at homeparents and soccer coaches was
just kind of amazing.
So I'm an accidental author,just like I'm an accidental
(10:56):
activist, wow.
Max Chopovsky (10:59):
Have you thought back to that time about what was
the source of the hesitationaround not wanting to release it
to a wider audience?
Linda Ginzel (11:11):
100 percent Because I had an episode years
earlier.
I teach executive education, soall these executives come to
Booth and I have them for threehours or two days or whatever.
When the students came up to mesome years ago and said, do you
have a book?
I'm like I don't have a book, Idon't need a book.
(11:34):
It's like I'm happy to justhave my efforts consumed in my
classroom by my students.
I actually thought it wasarrogant.
I actually thought it was notme.
I just didn't feel like it waswho I was.
I never set out to write a book.
People say best-selling author.
I look around the room who's abest-selling author?
(11:56):
That's just crazy.
It has something to do.
We were talking earlier aboutimmigrants and the first person
in my family to go to college.
I just didn't have this notionthat I had.
I don't know if it's not theright to do it, but it wasn't in
my consciousness, it wasn't inmy realm of possibilities, I
(12:17):
think that if you picked atrandom 10 students out of the
last five years of your class,because what you're exhibiting
is imposter syndrome when itcomes to being an author.
Max Chopovsky (12:33):
Who am I to write a book?
What qualifies me to write abook?
I just have this handbook thatI want to give to my students
and they're coming to you.
They're saying you should writea book.
You're like I don't know.
You should give more of theseout to other people.
I think that if you asked 10kids out of the last five years
of your class and if you pulledthem about your qualification to
(12:59):
write a book, the response ratewould be 10 out of 10, a
resounding yes, you should writea book.
Linda Ginzel (13:06):
I have to tell you , Max, I actually I love, I
think you're amazing and I loveyour insights, and when I'm
listening to your podcast I'malways almost as interested in
your insights as your guests.
But I got to tell you I thinkyou're wrong on this one.
Oh, okay, I'm a socialpsychologist.
I study imposter syndrome.
It's not that I don't think I'mworthy, it's just that it was
(13:27):
never a goal.
It was never in my.
I mean, why should I write abook?
What do I want to write a bookfor?
Why do I want to put my energyand effort to that?
What's it going to do?
I think I'm completelyqualified, I think I can do
anything I want to do, but itwasn't a goal to write a book.
It wasn't something that Ithought I should spend my time
on, and you may find this hardto believe, but I am very.
(13:49):
When I commit to doingsomething or I do it with all my
heart, with every bit of energy, and I think very carefully
what do I want to put my timeinto?
I honestly didn't realize thata book would have so much reach.
I thought it was like a vanityproject.
That's more of what I wastrying to say.
Max Chopovsky (14:05):
Interesting, so it was more about this.
Linda Ginzel (14:08):
isn't sort of the highest and best use of my time.
Who I am.
This is not who I am.
I'm not looking to be an author.
I'm looking to be a teacher andeducator.
I want to make a difference inpeople's lives, and I didn't
realize the book would be avehicle for that.
Max Chopovsky (14:22):
Interesting, interesting.
I do think that part of it wasif you were giving yourself
enough credit around theultimate reach of the book, then
maybe the decision might havebeen accelerated, right?
I mean, don't you think there'sa small part of that?
That?
It was kind of you thinking Iunderstand where you're coming
from, Like, hey, I don't want to.
There's a lot of things that Icould be doing in life and this
(14:44):
is just going to take a wholelot of effort, right, and if I'm
going to do it, I want to do itright.
I have the same approach toeverything I do, but I kind of
feel like I wonder if there's asmall part of you there that
thought that you kind ofunderestimated the demand for
your wisdom.
Linda Ginzel (14:58):
Well, that's also very kind of you to say.
I'm not sure it's my wisdom.
So I actually brought you acopy of the book, thank you.
And when you see the book youwill understand that it's not my
wisdom, it's yours.
The book is intended to be avehicle, a container for people
to capture their own knowledge,their own wisdom, in writing,
(15:19):
and then to share that knowledgeand wisdom with other people in
their community, at theirworkplace, in their home.
And my idea is that it'sindividual written reflection
plus collective wisdom, andthat's how we will all move up
the curve faster.
I call it being wiser younger.
So my goal is to help everyonebe wiser younger.
We all have more knowledge, andespecially when it comes to
(15:40):
leadership, I'm telling you noone knows the answer, no one
knows the definition ofleadership.
There's not a consent, it's nota discipline.
You know, I have a PhD inExperimental Social Psychology.
There's a body of knowledge.
There's a comprehensive exam.
You pass it, you get a PhD.
You know this discipline.
There's nothing.
I mean, you might get a PhD inleadership, but leadership is
not a discipline.
It's multidisciplinary, it'severything.
(16:02):
It's philosophy, it's religion,it's economics, it's everything
.
And so that's why people cancall whatever they do,
leadership and sell it andpeople buy it because they don't
know what it is and everybodywants it.
And so you know, people say,well, that's not what I thought
leadership was.
You know, that's not the courseI wanted in leadership.
I wanted this course.
And then they get that they'relike, oh no, that's not what I
(16:23):
wanted.
I wanted this because nobodyknows what it is, and so I think
it's that I should probablyhave as much right as anyone to
write a book on leadership,because look how many books on
leadership there are out thereand most of them are not very
good.
And so why would I contributeto that mess If I?
You know what I mean?
Like why would I want to put abook out there on leadership?
There's so much out therethat's so bad.
(16:43):
But this book is reallydifferent.
This is a workbook.
This is a book that you do.
You don't read this book, youdo it.
And so I brought you a book andmy inscription is Formax to
your future self.
I love that.
Max Chopovsky (16:58):
Thank you, that is so kind of you, it's so kind
of you, but you got to do thework.
Linda Ginzel (17:02):
It's not a book you read, it's a book you do.
Max Chopovsky (17:04):
I am not against doing the work.
That is one thing I'm notagainst.
I do think not because I wantto argue with a PhD in social
psychology.
I'll keep arguing.
I mean, we're in an academicsetting.
There's nothing wrong with alittle healthy debate.
There's a part of you thatthought, hey, there's so many
books out there, what could Ipossibly add to it?
Right, and I think that youjust weren't giving yourself
(17:27):
enough credit around what youcan add to the field because, to
your point, not all those booksare on best seller lists.
What is interesting to me isthat you are tackling a very
difficult issue, which is how doyou accelerate wisdom?
(17:48):
Because as we get older, weearn our wisdom through life
experiences and mistakes thatcost us something, and there's
probably some correlationbetween the magnitude of the
mistake and the impact it has onyou and how well you learn your
lesson right, Not always.
Linda Ginzel (18:07):
Sometimes it's the opposite.
If something's so big, youcould protect yourself from
learning the lessons because youcan't go there.
Max Chopovsky (18:13):
I could totally see that point.
I could see that point.
What you're trying to do,though, is you're trying to say
hey, I believe that people whoare younger also have wisdom to
share, 100%.
I mean, if you asked me when Iwas in my 20s, I would have told
you all the great things that Iam and all the wonderful
leadership traits that I have,and if you asked everyone around
me, they would have been likehe's actually a terrible leader
(18:36):
because he's the last person Iwould imagine to be a servant
leader.
Right, and servant leadershipwas not something that I learned
until I was a little bit laterin my career, because it was all
about, hey, I want to showeverybody that I should be
standing here in front of themand sort of leading them, but,
in reality, a good leader issomebody.
(18:57):
I'm speaking to the authorityon this, so please push back and
tell me where I'm wrong on this.
To me, a good leader issomebody who's almost elected by
the people, or at leastvalidated, right?
Because if you have somebodywho is CEO of a company and
they're not a great leader,people aren't gonna stay at that
company, so they might not haveelected them the way somebody
would elect a leaderdemocratically, but they
(19:17):
certainly have a choice as towhether they follow that person.
Linda Ginzel (19:21):
So servant leadership is one theory or one
angle of leadership.
There are thousands of anglesor theories or approaches to
what is leadership, and whathappens is that, depending on
what speaks to us individuallyour goals, our identity, our
(19:44):
context, we find differentapproaches to leadership, more
or less in line with what wethink.
So I don't think that servantleadership is the way to be a
leader.
Let me tell you what I think.
Okay, I think that there are alot of stereotypes out there
about what a leader looks like,about as you just said.
(20:06):
People would say you're not aleader because you were this way
or that way.
You would have thought that youwere a leader.
Just look at the word leader.
Tell you a small story.
I was asked to do a lunch forthe full-time MBA students, a
lunch talk and about helpingthem think about what they're
helping them to think, aboutinterviewing, and I thought well
(20:26):
, you know, they're probablygonna be asked about leadership
in these interviews that theytake, so I should get a sense
from them of what their answerwould be what's your definition
of leadership?
So, but instead of just askingthem that, I started with what I
thought would be a softball.
I said, okay, just sit for aminute and take your pen,
because I always think if youdon't write it down, it doesn't
exist.
If you don't write it down,it's a figment of your
(20:46):
imagination.
If you write it down, itbecomes data.
Data is observable to the selfand others and you can collect
it.
You can organize it.
So always you write things downin my class Welcome to my
classroom, max, and yourlisteners Happy to be here.
So I started with a softball andI said so.
What I'd like you to do is, youknow, talk to your neighbor,
talk to the person next to youabout your earliest leadership
(21:08):
experience.
What is the earliest time thatyou remember exhibiting or
engaging in leadership behavior?
Silence, silence.
These are MBAs at the BoothSchool of Business.
These are accomplished youngadults.
Silence, and I'm like a coupleminutes.
Let's take a couple minutes here, and I'm thinking, and so I say
(21:31):
what's going on?
You know, it was like literallyjust the beginning of this and
one of the women raised her handand she said well, I haven't
really had a chance to lead,I've just been a manager.
And I thought, oh my gosh, ifthese students, if my
accomplished amazing, changedthe world.
Already students think thatthey haven't led yet.
(21:52):
What do they think leadershipmeans?
What is their definition ofleadership?
And I have found that peoplehave these definitions that are
so inhibiting.
They inhibit their choices andthen they inhibit the choices of
others.
And so that was my epiphany ofpeople have to come up with
their own definition ofleadership.
And your definition is aslegitimate as mine.
(22:13):
And people are like well, youknow, I don't know, I have to
fake it till I make it.
I said, fine, just don't fakeit too long.
You know, figure it out, figureout what it is about you that
gets people to wanna follow you,and it can be as unique as the
number of people in this room.
It makes me crazy when we havethese books that say be a Q4
leader, be a X, y, you know whatare you talking about.
(22:34):
Even be a servant leader, Imean that doesn't work for all
people, in all situations, forall time.
If you wanna be a servantleader, then you should be a
servant leader, but it doesn'tmean that other people should
say that's my aspiration.
I wanna be that Because I thinkthat it's more complicated than
that.
Leadership is more complicatedthan that.
I'm even trying.
(22:54):
You know, don Quixote, how hehas the windmill and he fights.
I mean how he has the sword andhe fights windmills.
That's me, I'm Don Quixote.
I am trying to stop the use ofthe term leader.
I'm trying not to use the wordleader and I try to have my
students not use the word leader.
Try to use the words to manageand to lead as verbs, and then
(23:18):
you need a new noun for lead forthe category right.
So I used to use executivebecause I teach executives, but
then with the book you knowwe're teaching, we're using this
book with high school studentsin prisons, in workplaces, and
people don't identify withthemselves as an executive.
(23:40):
People think an executive is ifyou're in the C-suite, and this
book is not only not maybe even, but it should be for people in
the C-suite.
This book is for you, this bookis for everyone.
So I had to come up with a newlabel and I was having a really
hard time.
You know there are so manystories embedded within stories
(24:00):
I want to tell you.
I had a hard time thinking whatstory am I going to tell today?
I really did, and now this ismy third story that I'm about
ready to tell you.
You're going to have to cut meoff.
So Richard Thaler, the NobelLaureate, he's my senior
colleague.
He's a great man and he was sokind and generous of his time.
He gave me handwritten commentson the first four chapters of
(24:23):
my book, but he took a long timebecause he's busy and he gave
it to me like right when I wasdue.
I had to turn it in.
And so he says you know, yougot to lose executive.
You got to lose executiveBecause these people, if you're
writing for them, they're notgoing to identify as executives.
I'm like, yeah, but let me tellyou, I have searched high and
low.
There is not another label.
And besides, I'm using the wordexecutive, like Drucker.
(24:45):
Anyone who's responsible forthe performance outcomes of
their organization is anexecutive.
And me, linda Ginzel, I'm anexecutive, I'm responsible for
the performance outcomes of myorganization.
And he said Linda, people wouldlook at you and they'll say
she's a leader, but no one wouldsay she's an executive.
You got to lose executive andI'm like well, I got this
deadline and I got to turn thisbook in.
He's like buy tomorrow, give me10 words to substitute for
(25:06):
executive or for leader.
For executive.
Oh, max, that's the Thalerassignment.
You know the homeworkassignment.
My kids play baseball.
I was talking to the baseballmoms.
We were coming up with wordslike servant leadership came up,
guide, advocate, actor.
Horrible, horrible, horrible,horrible words.
(25:27):
It's nighttime, I'm Googling,I'm synonyming, I can't find
anything.
I find five words that I canput in an email to him that I'm
not like, completely embarrassedof.
And he writes back and he sayschampion, champion's your word.
He's like, not in the sense ofnumber one or winner, but in the
sense of to champion, a causeto advocate.
And so I did a global searchand replace that day 44
(25:51):
instances of executive forchampion.
And I have not fully embracedchampion yet, but I'm really
trying hard to say Max, you area champion, you are champion
Most of the time you aremanaging.
Managing is when you're in thepresent, right now, my dear, you
are managing, you're recordingthis.
You're getting the job done,you're in the present, your feet
(26:11):
are on the ground, you knowwhat to do.
You're getting it done right,whether for other people it's
making sure we have diapers inthe house or meeting the streets
expectations.
And as Sunny Garg told you Ijust listened to the podcast he
did with you he's one of myfavorite people said management
is noble.
Management is what allows us tolive our dreams, to go on
(26:33):
vacation, to buy those home, tosend our children to college.
So don't let anyone ever tellyou that management is not as
important as leadership, it'sjust different.
So you're a champion and rightnow you are managing.
Most of the time, it doesn'tmatter what your title is,
you're managing, you have,you're in the present, you're
getting things done.
You can be getting them donethrough other people, but you're
still managing.
(26:55):
Once in a while, max and you'vedone this already in your past
and you probably do it daily tosome degree you'll make a choice
to leave the present and to goto a place it doesn't exist,
which is the future, becauseusually you go there because of
some dissatisfaction with thepresent.
There's something about thepresent that and they call that
(27:17):
a vision, you know, vision of abetter tomorrow.
So you have a vision and youfeel so confident in your vision
that you want to leave thestability of your feet on the
ground, go to a place it doesn'texist, unchartered.
And you have to believe sostrongly in that vision and you
have to have the commitment ofthe people who follow you,
(27:40):
because you might be taking themover a cliff.
You've never been to the future, you don't know where you're
going, you just believe and theybelieve in you.
That's when you make the choiceto lead, and it can be
leadership with a lower case L,a small, or it can be leadership
with a capital L.
That's another stereotype.
Everyone thinks leadership hasto be big, transformational
leadership where you're notleading, and I think that's also
(28:02):
an inhibiting notion of thedefinition of leadership.
So my idea is that when youmost of the time so, there's a
map.
When you are in the present,there's a map.
And when you go, when you makethe choice to leave the
stability of the present, go tothe future, it's a compass
because the terrain is unchartedand all you can do is have a
sense of direction.
And that's my theory, that's myway I think about leadership
(28:24):
and I'm trying so hard to stopusing the word leader and
manager, Her voice rings in myear.
I'm not a leader, I've onlybeen a manager.
Max Chopovsky (28:36):
That's a good mantra to keep repeating to
yourself as a reminder of howimportant this is.
It made me think of this kindof framework that I had when I
was in college.
It was, and I remember, writingit down on my weekly list of
goals and the schedule that Iwould have.
It was VSTT.
(28:56):
So it goes from the big pictureto the small picture Vision,
strategy, tactics, tasks.
Each one will be broken downinto the components of the next
level, and that was my, you know, sort of attempt at taking a
(29:20):
vision, which we ascribe thesegrandiose meanings to that word,
because it is this ambitioussort of quest to make a big
difference in something.
It's vision right the way thatjust sounds grand and that makes
it less approachable.
(29:40):
And so, as you, at some pointyou have to connect the compass
to the map.
So my thought was well, avision is supported by a
strategy to achieve that vision,and then that strategy is
supported by tactics.
But even the tactics could be alittle bit much to bite off.
So if we can break that downinto tasks, then we can look at
(30:06):
a marathon that you want to runand say, well, today I'm going
to run a half a mile, and so youtake that vision of.
I did my first triathlon thissummer.
Linda Ginzel (30:18):
Congratulations.
Max Chopovsky (30:19):
Thank you.
And I'd never done a triathlon.
I said, you know, I'm going todo an Olympic tri because my
buddy talked me into it and thevision was to do a triathlon
right, but taking it all the waydown into the smallest possible
component of it.
It's now that I have thistraining plan, which would have
been sort of the strategy.
(30:39):
The tactic would be to get mytime to a certain point in each
of the three disciplines andthen the task is I'm going to
run a half a mile, I'm going toswim 200 meters.
It starts small, right, so it'sinteresting that you talk about
it in that context.
That's kind of how I thoughtabout it when I was younger.
Linda Ginzel (31:00):
Well, let me tell you you are ahead of your time,
or ahead of the curve, becausethis is called.
You even called it a framework.
So I teach executives how tocreate frameworks like the one
you just talked about, in orderto take something abstract and
take it down, what I call it onthe mezzanine.
So there's the abstract.
You know, 30,000 feet Like.
(31:22):
My favorite abstraction is wehave to align individual and
corporate goals.
You got that, max, we're goingto align individual and
corporate goals and it's like,oh yeah, that sounds good.
What it means, nobody knows.
So that's 30,000 feet.
That's too abstract.
And then the other extreme istoo concrete.
We're just in the muck, you'rein the mud, you just can't see
the forest with the trees,you're just.
So each of us kind of defaultsto either abstract or concrete,
(31:45):
and my idea is that we bring itto the mezzo level, the sweet
spot where it's abstract enoughto be generalizable but concrete
enough to be actionable.
And that's what you did.
You created your own frameworkin order to come down from this
abstract place to this mezzolevel, to this sweet spot where
you can actually use it and it'sgeneralizable.
(32:07):
So your framework is like thekind of framework I teach my
students to create which isuseful outside a given situation
.
Right, so you can use it forany situation.
But this is how you manageambiguity.
People are like I don't knowwhat to do.
You know, I don't know what todo.
If you have structure, you know.
If the teacher gives you arubric and says this is how,
this is what we're going tograde you on, you can do that.
(32:29):
Right, you're smart.
All my students can do that.
When I tell them you createyour own rubric, they're like
huh, but this is how you canmanage ambiguity.
So one of my students told meshe got this big job as a like.
I don't know.
Talent scout recruiter I don'tknow.
And she said you know what thesecompanies are looking for.
They're looking for executiveswho can manage ambiguity.
(32:50):
And they can't find them.
And I thought this is my fault.
Do you know?
It's partly my fault.
You know how many thousands ofexecutives I teach every year
and they can't find executiveswho can manage ambiguity.
What are we as educators doingwrong?
So I started teaching in myleadership capital.
I call it leadership capital toecho human capital and social
(33:13):
capital.
I have my students create atleast two frameworks to practice
managing ambiguity, so thatthey understand that you know
there's no ambiguity if yourboss or your teacher, whatever
gives you the framework.
When you don't aren't given theframework, you have to create
your own and you have to getcomfortable.
My hope is that students willget comfortable creating
frameworks, but you did it apriority and maybe some people
(33:36):
do it, but many of my studentsdon't.
Max Chopovsky (33:38):
Well, I'm a chronic overthinker, so I think
this is a byproduct of it.
But I think, to take it onestep further, I think maybe what
some educators are doing wrongis eliminating all the ambiguity
which is exactly what you'resaying by giving them the
rubrics.
That takes all the guessworkout of it.
I would take it a step furtherand say actually, people should
understand that life isambiguous.
(34:00):
We don't have the answersbecause things could change
tomorrow.
Right, like we were talkingabout this before we started
recording, a few thousand peoplewent to a rave in Southern
Israel.
Right, they had no idea whatwas gonna happen the next
morning.
Right, they had no clue.
I think part of this is just myhumble opinion, but I feel like
(34:25):
part of getting older and wiseris the ability to tolerate
ambiguity, because someambiguity you just can't get rid
of.
You could put togetherframeworks and rubrics and
that'll address some things, butmy sort of trajectory
personally has been to try totolerate ambiguity and
(34:47):
understand that I will notalways have the answers and I
will never have all the answers.
Right, and there's adistinction there.
Right, like, I'm never gonnahave all the answers and I will
always not have all the answers.
You know what I'm saying.
That's the part that I think isthe biggest challenge is how do
we raise a generation?
(35:07):
This is a massive question, buthow do we raise a generation of
people who understand thatambiguity is a part of life and
you manage what you manage andthings you can't control.
You just have to understandthat that's a part of the sort
of human condition.
Linda Ginzel (35:20):
Well, first I would tell you that I'm doing my
best.
I just started teaching collegestudents at the University of
Chicago three years ago.
So I've taught MBAs andexecutive MBAs my entire career
and now I'm going younger andstarting with the college
students, and I also havecreated curricula for high
school students.
So I'm doing my best to goyounger and start this process
(35:43):
sooner, I would tell you.
Just listening to you, you saidtolerate, and I think that that
is a base goal.
I would have the goal toembrace.
Yes, exactly Okay, becausetolerate makes it sound like a
negative thing that we have todo, whereas embrace is a
positive thing that we canaspire to.
(36:03):
So what I'm thinking is thatthere's something I teach in my
class.
It's called the zygarnic effect.
So Bluma Zygarnic was apsychologist and you've
experienced the zygarnic effectanytime.
You are not finished withsomething and you're doing a big
project at work and you're inthe shower and you're not
thinking about it, but all of asudden an idea comes to you or
you're asleep and you wake upand you have that pad next to
(36:25):
you and you write down the notesbecause so that's zygarnic.
It's kind of like.
I think of it as like the.
It's like running in the backof your mind.
You're not conscious of it, butevery once in a while.
Now, the definition of thezygarnic effect is things that
are incomplete are more activein our mind, in our memory.
So once you put a ribbon onsomething and put it away, it's
finished.
My hope for you, and forsociety perhaps, is to let
(36:53):
zygarnic be with you, to nothave to rush to closure.
We have to close.
We're not amoebas.
We can't live without structurewe have to figure it out.
We can't just be in thissemi-solid state.
But uncertainty, ambiguity,lack of closure, if it's
negative it can be anxiety, ifit's positive it can be creative
(37:16):
tension.
And so how do we getcomfortable, how do we get used
to feeling that physiological,psychological tension and label
it more positively so that wecan at least maybe harness the
energy that comes from theincompleteness, from the
uncertainty, from the unknown?
(37:36):
So my hope for you, max, andmaybe for the listeners, is may
zygarnic be with you and may youfeel more and more comfortable
with the lack of closure anduncertainty.
That can also be very creativeand not necessarily
anxiety-provoking.
Max Chopovsky (37:56):
That's a lofty goal.
That's a lofty goal because itgoes against a lot of human
nature, which is to label thingsand have answers, and that's
just not something we can do.
A lot of the time, we talkedabout how leadership is
different for every person and,being someone who studies this
and has written about itextensively, what do you think
(38:20):
makes you an effective championof your disciples, your students
, the people that you lead?
Linda Ginzel (38:30):
That's a great question.
I mean, if you asked mystudents, they would tell you my
passion, because I reallybelieve.
I mean I told you my first jobwas in a business school.
No one went to business schools.
That was like crazy.
I wanted so much to make adifference in people's lives,
for them to take action withknowledge, not just to pour
knowledge into their head.
(38:51):
So I believe 100% and I'll tellyou, I tell my students look, I
can't behave for you, but theonly way you're gonna improve
your outcomes is by changingyour behavior.
So everything we do in thisclass is geared towards you
figuring out what you're gonnado with this knowledge.
All right, so knowledge is likebutter in the hot sun you can
collect it all you want and itcan just go away.
(39:12):
You can collect it, you candisplay it, you can dust it off,
you can.
But what we have to do is thinkabout what is the link to
action, and that is unique foreach person.
So I think it's my focus onchanging behavior and believing
very strongly that I can helpyou do that.
I can't act for you, but I willencourage you, I will motivate
(39:32):
you, I will surprise you, I willhelp you practice in my
classroom and then kick you inthe pants and send you out the
door.
That's probably mostly it.
I think it's also that I'm amom and being a mom is a really
big part of my identity, and Ithink the students know that I'm
real, that I care for theirgrowth, that I really really do
(39:53):
and that I tell them look, I gota lot of things to do with my
time.
If I didn't believe I could helpyou, change your behavior and
improve your outcomes, I'd go dosomething else today.
So I don't wanna waste yourtime or mine.
My time's precious too, and somaybe it's just that they
believe me and because theybelieve me, they listen to me
and because I mean it, but theyhave to be at a place where they
(40:13):
wanna listen.
Not everybody wants to go there, not everybody, you know.
Some people just want theanswers Like give me the bullets
, give me the definition, checkoff the boxes here, and I have
to wait for those people to comearound because they're not
really ready, and it's not afunction of age, it's not always
a function of age.
Max Chopovsky (40:34):
That's true.
I think it's not a bad rule ofthumb, but you're right.
They want you to think for them.
Linda Ginzel (40:41):
They want answers.
And people are like you're theprofessor, we're paying you.
What are you kidding me?
I'm supposed to come up with myown definition.
I'm like, yeah, that's right.
Like this just doesn't make anysense, you know, because it's
not an equation, that you havean answer, it's not an algorithm
.
It has to be about you or it'snot yours.
Like I said, you can borrowsomebody else's definition and
(41:03):
I'll tell you the whole thingabout leadership.
You know, I talk to people whodo leadership for a living.
One I said to this one man.
I said so what's yourdefinition?
Ask people what theirdefinition of leadership is.
It's fascinating.
This person said well, it'smotivating others to pursue a
goal or two.
It's basically energizing andmotivating people.
And I'm like and how's thatdifferent from management?
And this is a guy who gets paidto do leadership, consulting.
(41:25):
And he looked at me and saidwell, I guess it isn't.
I'm like so what is leadership?
Give me a break, you know, Imean people.
Just, it makes me crazy.
So it's that I really believewhat I'm doing.
I believe that I don't have theanswers that you do.
And it's OK.
You can pay a professor, youcan pay a guru, you can pay
people.
That's great, but in additionto that, you have to do the work
(41:46):
.
You have to realize that youhave wisdom and knowledge, and
so do other people, and that youhave to decide what's relevant
for you, and it doesn't comeprepackaged.
Max Chopovsky (41:56):
That's true.
That's true.
You have to get to the otherside of discomfort to get to
your unique answer you have tocreate your own bullets.
Linda Ginzel (42:04):
Basically, that's right.
Max Chopovsky (42:05):
That's right.
So, as you think back to yourstory about being an accidental
author, what, looking back on itis the moral of that story.
Linda Ginzel (42:13):
I was prepared for this question, oh good.
The moral of the accidentalauthor is that sometimes choices
that are made for you by othersturn out to be better than the
choices you might have made foryourself.
I would not have taught thatleadership class, I would not
(42:34):
have made that a book, because Ihad a narrower view of what was
possible.
And sometimes people aredisappointed at the university.
They don't get tenure, theythink they failed.
Then they go to anotheruniversity where they fit better
and they're so happy.
So sometimes the choices wedon't make for ourselves can be
(42:57):
better than the choices we do.
That's interesting.
Max Chopovsky (43:00):
That also requires being open to other
people's observations andcommentary and leaving your ego
at the door, because otherwiseyou would say, well, why would
they know what's best for me?
Linda Ginzel (43:17):
Well, I was dragged kicking and screaming
into leadership.
I did not go willingly.
I did not go willingly and lookwhat happened.
Now I'm a leadership person.
How is that even possible?
Like in what universe is LindaGinzel the person that people
ask about leadership?
Here I am, max, and you'redoing it.
Max Chopovsky (43:32):
This is what I'm saying.
I think that you don't giveyourself enough credit.
There are a lot of things thatyou could be doing with your
time, but I think that it'sabout time that you recognize
just how deserving you are ofall the honors you've gotten.
Linda Ginzel (43:45):
Thank you.
Thank you, max, of course.
Max Chopovsky (43:47):
Of course, you tell stories for a living.
Linda Ginzel (43:51):
You've told multiple stories just in the
last 40 minutes.
Max Chopovsky (43:56):
What, in your mind, makes for a good story?
Linda Ginzel (44:00):
I listen to the moth and I am just blown away by
these stories and I don't knowwhat is the gist.
I don't know what is theessence of a good story.
Maybe because sometimes it'ssurprise, sometimes it's humor,
sometimes it's coming back tothe beginning and wrapping it up
.
I think it has to be somethingthat is meaningful to the
(44:25):
storyteller and I think thatthat's different for everyone,
so maybe that's not a goodanswer for you, but I think that
what makes a good story is thatyou tell something because it's
meaningful to you and thenother people see that and it
somehow becomes meaningful forthem.
Max Chopovsky (44:45):
Well, I think it's very on brand for you to
give that answer, because it isvery much in line with your
philosophy that there is no onesize fits all.
So I like that.
Do you think that every storyhas to have a moral, and if it
doesn't, is it still a goodstory?
Linda Ginzel (45:05):
My gut is yes, as long as people are engaged in
listening, they're going to comeup with what the meaning is for
them, and if it's not a goodstory, then they've stopped
listening and they're not goingto come up with it.
So a good story.
You have to listen, you have towant to listen and maybe you
have to want to listen to theend.
Max Chopovsky (45:24):
Yeah, there is a book called 4,000 Weeks and the
author of the book because hisname is Oliver I don't know his
last name, but he was in apodcast that I listened to by
Peter Atia called the Drive, andhe makes this really
interesting point about how wewant every hour that we spend to
(45:49):
be filled with the mostprofound experiences, whether
it's making the mostunforgettable memories or coming
up with something incrediblycreative or solving some really
complicated problem, and whatmost people don't realize,
especially people who are superADD achievers like me or kind of
(46:13):
overachievers total type Acomplete type A is sometimes you
have to let go of that control,of the need for control,
embrace the ambiguity andunderstand that some of the best
experiences come fromspontaneity and come from an
(46:34):
unexpected place.
Linda Ginzel (46:35):
Choices you might not have made for yourself 100%,
100%.
Max Chopovsky (46:39):
Yes, man, I love how that loop back to your
philosophy because it's true.
He says you have to be willingto waste time in order to have a
meaningful experience, and thatis so hard for some people to
get their minds around Likewaste time.
I don't have a lot of time, Imean waste time.
Linda Ginzel (46:58):
Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency Totally.
Max Chopovsky (47:01):
But sometimes you just have to go for a walk
along the river, sometimes youjust have to sit and look at the
lake or look up and look atwhat kind of cloud formations
are in the sky, and that mightseem so, that might be anathema
to so many people's philosophiesthat are rooted in, yeah, these
incredibly high efficiencies,like everything has to be tied
(47:23):
to a goal, but sometimes youjust have to let go.
You just have to let go.
You wrote a book that was me.
I know it's almost like it wasan accident.
Now you also have done a ton ofreading, I'm sure, countless
and countless books.
What is one book besides yoursthat you feel gets storytelling
(47:48):
right?
That just nails it.
Linda Ginzel (47:51):
Wow, it would depend on your definition of
storytelling.
Martin Luther King by JonathanEyck blows me away, by the way.
I want you to interview him onyour podcast.
He's a Chicago author,bestselling author.
He's unbelievable.
I would love it.
I love everything he's written.
His most recent is MartinLuther King.
But that's a type ofstorytelling.
(48:13):
It's like a, you know, it'slike nonfiction, it's that kind
of storytelling.
Now that I'm thinking about it,I think I like that kind of
storytelling.
So I also like historicalfiction.
I just read Killer Angels.
Do you know this book?
I do not, so I don't rememberthe author.
He's a, I think this onePulitzer Prize.
(48:36):
It's about the Battle ofGettysburg and it's another book
that I would say getsstorytelling right.
But Jonathan's my favoriteauthor.
Killer Angels captivated me ina way that most books don't,
except if they're written byJonathan.
Max Chopovsky (48:55):
Of course, of course, all right.
Last question for you.
Okay, if you had a few minuteswith 20 year old Linda, what
would you say to her.
Linda Ginzel (49:10):
Be kinder to your parents, younger.
I didn't appreciate.
My parents are very, verystrict, and I didn't appreciate
my parents until I was in myforties, and then it was pretty
late.
Be kinder to your parents,younger.
Good advice.
Max Chopovsky (49:32):
That's good advice.
It is, I will say, I think, apart of every human's trajectory
to really be able to appreciatetheir parents when they get
older and when they themselvesbecome parents, because then
they see the other side of it.
And it was very hard for me toreally understand the
(49:53):
complexities of parenthood andall of the competing priorities
and, frankly, the sense of nothaving it all figured out while
needing to look like thechampion to your children, until
I myself had children and knewthat and realized that, you know
, on one hand, they need to seeme as the fearless leader that
(50:17):
has their back and has all theanswers, while at the same time
understanding that I absolutelydo not have all the answers.
And how do I impart lessons tomy kids while knowing that I
don't have all the answers?
And it's hard, and I think thatit's going to be, you know, the
same story arc with my kids,which is it might take time for
(50:40):
them to understand.
Oh, got it, he had a lot goingon and he did his best, right.
But sometimes we don'tappreciate them till we're older
, until they're older, and thenin that case you just don't have
as much time left with them.
There's a saying I'm sure you'veheard this that you get 19
years with your kids.
Have you heard this?
You get 19 years with your kids.
(51:01):
The first 18 are when they'rein the house and the 19th year
is every moment after thatbecause they move out, right.
And then how often are yougoing to see them?
And if you look at it from theother perspective, it's like,
yeah, you get 19 years with yourparents, right, and if you're
out of the house, you're on that19th year.
Linda Ginzel (51:20):
So that's beautiful, and you just
described parenting as theultimate active leadership.
Max Chopovsky (51:26):
Totally, totally.
We do learn to be betterchampions when we become parents
.
Well, that does it, lindaGinzel, author, professor and
very thoughtful human being.
Thank you for being on the show.
Linda Ginzel (51:42):
My pleasure.
Thank you for the honor.
Max Chopovsky (51:44):
Of course.
Of course, the honor was allmine For show notes and more.
Head over to maspodorg.
Find us on Apple Podcasts,Spotify, wherever you get your
podcast on.
This was more of the story.
I'm Max Trapowski.
Thank you for listening.
Talk to you next time.
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