February 19, 2025 • 45 mins
The chaotic and often nonsensical nature of contemporary information necessitates a more nuanced discourse surrounding the experiences of marginalized communities, particularly the trans and queer individuals. In this episode, I am privileged to engage with Alexander Stefanini, a licensed professional counselor and the owner of Arrive Therapy, an LGBTQ+ counseling practice dedicated to serving trans and queer clients of all ages. Alexander elucidates the complexities inherent in the coming out process, emphasizing that transitions are rarely solitary endeavors; they necessitate the involvement and understanding of one's familial and social networks. Furthermore, we explore the multifaceted support mechanisms that Arrive Therapy provides, including specialized groups for both trans individuals and their families, thereby fostering a holistic approach to mental health and identity affirmation. Through our discussion, we endeavor to illuminate the pressing need for empathy, education, and allyship in these uncertain times, advocating for a collective journey toward understanding and acceptance.
Takeaways:
- The current era is characterized by an overwhelming abundance of chaotic and nonsensical information.
- Engaging in conversations with individuals most affected by issues can enhance understanding significantly.
- The importance of supporting not only trans individuals but also their families during transitions cannot be overstated.
- Creating safe spaces for trans youth is essential in fostering their mental health and identity.
- The process of coming out as trans is often more complicated than coming out as gay, requiring systemic support.
- Allies can play a crucial role in advocating for trans rights by educating themselves and actively participating in their communities.
Links referenced in this episode:
Connect with Heather:
Join the Kind Space on Patreon
Give a copy of Heather's book, Parenting with Pride.
Join Heather's Substack and Mid Week Breath weekly newsletter
Share More Human. More Kind. Please subscribe to, rate, and review!
Work with Heather one-on-one or bring her into your organization to speak or run a workshop!
Email: hh@chrysalismama.com
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Blubrry - https://create.blubrry.com/resources/about-blubrry/privacy-policy
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(03:05):
We are in a time whereinformation is chaotic, shocking,
and much of it nonsensical.
Today, I'm honored to welcomea guest to help us parse through
a segment of our current events.
One of the best ways tounderstand anything is to talk to
those who are most affected orwho the pundits are talking about.
(03:28):
Alexander Stefanini is alicensed professional counselor,
trans man and the owner ofArrive Therapy.
Alexander has been a licensedcounselor since 2004 and has worked
in many roles in the mentalhealth field.
Currently he is the owner andclinical director of Arrive Therapy,
which is an all LGBTQ+counseling practice that works primarily
(03:50):
with trans and queer folks ofall ages.
Arrive has a unique team ofall trans and gay therapists who
work with clients on mentalhealth and gender identity and sexuality.
Another focus of Arrive issupporting parents of trans kids,
teens and adults when theirchild has come out as trans or gay.
(04:11):
Arrive also offers supportgroups, including Trans Teen support
Groups, Trans Adult Supportgroups, and Parents of trans Kids
support groups.
Without further ado, I amdelighted to welcome Alexander.
Welcome back to Just Breathe, everyone.
I am so, so excited tointroduce today's guest.
(04:33):
Alexander.
Thank you so much for beinghere with me today.
It's very timely conversation.
Unfortunately, we're going tostart out really broad and I want
everyone to know a little bitabout who you are, what you do in
this world and we will go from there.
(04:54):
All right, awesome.
Thank you.
I am Alexander Stefanini.
My pronouns are he, him.
I am a licensed professional counselor.
I've been licensed for 20years and been doing family work,
individual therapy, communitymental health and I'm dad of two
kids and I am the owner ofAride Therapy which is a trans focused
(05:14):
all LGBTQ counseling practice.
It's a group counselingpractice that does regular mental
health therapy as reallyworking with families and folks on
transition related stuff,gender identity and gender dysphoria.
Twenty years ago when I gotlicensed, I was in my 20s.
I actually wasn't specificallydoing work with trans folks or LGBTQ
folks.
(05:34):
I was historically I'm afamily therapist.
So I did a lot of intensive inhome, a lot of crisis work, really
working with people, kids thatwere in crisis and then their systems,
including families,neighborhoods, other support folks.
So I did that for many yearsand got moved up into supervision
roles, clinical supervisortype roles.
And it really wasn't until Icame out and started transitioning
(05:58):
about seven, eight years agothat people started coming to me
and saying, you know, I have atrans client that's coming out of
this program or I have A transsomebody who's coming out and can
you see them?
So they're just in where I wasoutside of Philadelphia, there weren't
at that time really any trans providers.
And so at that time I waslike, well, I haven't really studied
gender studies, but I'm goingthrough this.
And so let me see if theintersection of my personal experience
(06:23):
and my professional experiencewill help me provide good care for
folks that are transitioningor exploring their gender identity.
So, you know, for me, I'vereally learned that people don't
transition in isolation.
There's no way to reallytransition in isolation.
You're gonna, your, yourfamily has to transition with you,
your friends have totransition with you, work has to
(06:44):
transition with you.
Right?
So anywhere that you come outand you share who you are, for people
to stay in your life, theyreally do need to kind of transition
with you.
And so being a family systemstherapist has really dovetailed really
nicely with that because oneof the focuses that's really important
to me when people come in hereand they're, you know, talking about
(07:06):
transitioning, our parentscome in with their teenagers, is
to be really looking at theirwhole system and how can we support
everybody around them, youknow, breaking down their own stereotypes,
asking questions, learning,and kind of beginning to shift how
they see this person to whothat person is, sharing that they
(07:27):
are.
So it's really important to methat we're working with people's
families and people's friendsand communities.
Absolutely, absolutely.
That's something that I've,that makes so much sense and is so
helpful on the kind of thefront end as the person is going
through what they're goingthrough, like really having their,
their biggest support system, right?
(07:49):
Their, their family and theirfriends right there with them, kind
of walking through each one ofthose steps.
I'm very curious about thisbecause this is not my area of expertise.
And so I, I talk a lot aboutthe, you know, coming out process
for someone who's coming outas gay at which.
(08:10):
And it's very different whensomebody's transitioning.
If you had somebody who cameto you and was really struggling
with telling their friendsthey were gay as opposed to telling
their friends that they weretransitioning, how would your advice
differ or how would you guidethem through that process differently
or would you?
(08:31):
Well, you know, I do thinkcoming out as trans is a lot more
complex than coming out as gay.
Right?
Say I come out as gay topeople at work, it's kind of like
most people are going to go,oh, okay, you Know, like, oh, you
have a wife instead of a husband.
Like it's, it's really not abig deal.
That doesn't really requiremuch of people.
I also think that, and thisis, I just want to say that when
(08:53):
some of what I'm saying reallyis my own perspective and there will
be people even within thetrans community that have different
ideas, different opinions,their experience of being trans is
going to be different than mine.
So I really can only speak formyself, but I do feel like, you know,
working with the amount oftrans clients that we hear have at
arrive therapy, I get a prettygood overview of kind of like themes
(09:17):
and how things are different.
So I think that coming out astrans, part of it is that I think
that when a person comes outas gay, they want to be seen for
who they are.
Right.
Similar to when you come outas trans.
But for, for a lot of times Ithink for gay people is.
(09:38):
The visibility is reallyimportant to them.
The visibility is like, that's how.
Because there is sort of this normative.
People assume you'reheterosexual unless they know you
are gay.
Right, Right.
So people want to be, I thinka little bit more.
It's important to them to beout to be people, to be acknowledging
(09:58):
that they know that they aregay or have like a same sex partner.
Right.
I think for trans people it's,and I'm thinking very much of binary
trans people because I thinkfor non binary folks it is different,
it's like a different dynamic.
But for folks who are binary,a lot of times there is sort of like
a coming out of the closet,which is important for people around
(10:18):
us as we're going through thetransition for people to know who
we are, for people to adjust,for people to go, okay, I see you
for you.
But at a certain point I feellike a lot of especially binary trans
folks almost don't want tohave to come out anymore.
Right.
So if I go into the store and,and nobody realizes that I'm trans
or I make a new friend andthat person doesn't realize that
(10:41):
I'm trans in some ways that iskind of, I think, not necessarily
to hide it, but to, to just beseen for who you are.
So when, when I, I meet acontractor at my house and they just
treat me like any other guy,that is probably one of the most
affirming things I can experience.
It's not that I'm not, it'snot that I'm trying to be closeted.
It's just that they really areseeing me for me.
(11:02):
Right.
And it's often more just likewith people, like if I have a friend,
something I'm going to get toknow a little bit more then I, in
order to be, I think, movepast that kind of, you know, just
like a relationship you mighthave with a neighbor or, or someone
to move into more intimacy.
I find that it's importantlike friendships and folks to then
(11:23):
come out again.
Right.
Sort of saying like, you know,oh, you know, you, you know me as
a man and I am, but also I'm,I'm a trans man.
And that's just my personalopinion that I always say to people,
you know, I'm not trying to bea CIS man.
Like I, I will never be a CIS man.
That doesn't change that I'm aman and I live as a man and I feel
(11:46):
very comfortable this way andthat that's who I am.
But I will never be a CIS manand I'm not trying to be.
Right.
So I think even in some of thestuff you hear from like the media
and government and all thisstuff, it's almost like you're trying
to pretend to be somethingthat you're not.
And I don't really feel thatthat's fundame true.
So when somebody, when I don'thave, when I'm, when I, in a way,
sort of like when I pass it,it's, it's very affirming of who
(12:12):
I am.
Right.
Does that make sense?
So, so it's like coming out isa lot more complex.
So it's also more complex inthe sense of, say I come out at work
and things have to change.
Right.
Like, you know what happens?
How do I, you know, begin tophysically transition at work, like
begin to wear the clothes thatfeel good to me at work.
(12:34):
How do you know, stuff getlike name changes and gender stuff.
So, so that it's more complexthan just saying, oh yeah, I have
a same sex partner because itrequires a certain amount of knowledge
and change on other people's part.
How can friends be supportiveof somebody that is transitioning?
(12:58):
That is because that all makesso much sense.
How can they be protective?
How can they be, how can theybe advocating?
I think there's so manydifferent ways and again, I think
with being trans and goingthrough a transition, there's, there's
different ways at different stages.
Right.
So thinking back to when I wasfirst transitioning and I was the
(13:20):
supervisor at a mental healthfacility that had a bunch of different
therapists and there were someof those therapists that were really,
they Were a little bit older,they were struggling, a little bit
more conservative folks whowere struggling to.
Although they were respectful,they were really struggling to use
my name and pronouns.
Okay.
And at some point, one of thetherapists came up to me and said,
hey, is it okay with you if Igo talk with them?
(13:42):
I just want to find out, youknow, what is the barrier?
Where are they struggling with this?
And, like, really employ themto kind of, like, implore them.
Sorry.
To get.
To get on board and kind ofbegin to make the effort to use your
name and pronounce.
And that was really, reallysupportive to me because I was like,
I don't have to go fight that fight.
Somebody else is going to gohave that conversation in a way that
(14:02):
probably even will feel, you know.
You know, those therapists aregoing to feel less defensive just
talking with one of theircolleagues and not talking with me
or having HR talk with them orsomething like that.
So I think there's a lot ofways you can, you know, even just,
you know, say you're at afamily outing and, you know, somebody's
uncle misgenders them, not,like, stepping in for that trans
(14:27):
person.
I think, especially in thebeginning stages, really stepping
in and.
And doing some of that, like,hard work.
Because my experience, andreally of all the clients that I've
had, is that in those first.
That first year, that firsttwo years, you feel really vulnerable.
You feel really vulnerable.
Everything feels really intense.
You're super scared ofrejection, you know, and you're.
(14:47):
You're.
You feel like you've justopened up this thing that you've
been hiding from.
A lot of people have beenhiding for a long time, right?
So to have other people dosome of that work for you and just
say, you know, just remindsomebody of your pronouns or even
be somebody who justconsistently does it.
Like, I do it a lot here with.
With parents who arestruggling with pronouns and names.
And I just continue to use theright pronouns and right names with
(15:09):
them.
Right.
And what I find in my sessionsis that they begin to do it.
And I know initially they'renot doing it at home, but they begin
to do it here.
And then I find that, like, I just.
So if you're a friend or aneighbor, you just.
Just use the right name and pronoun.
Just just keep at it and alsoremind the other people.
I also think that, like, forpeople in your life, friends, family
(15:29):
members, getting support, wesee a lot of parents here that have
maybe adult children who'vecome out, and the parents have no
control over whether the kid'sgoing to transition and they're freaking
out and they come in here andthey're really doing their own emotional
work on what does this mean?
What are their fears for their kids?
What are their own stigma thatthey carry?
Because we all trans people,we carry a certain amount of transphobia.
(15:53):
Like we've all internalizedthe stigma.
For example, recently with allthese executive orders coming out,
just having a few friends whoreached out to me and said, hey,
I'm thinking of you, you know,like, how are you feeling?
How is this impacting you?
So I think there are differentways at different points in time
that you can be supportive.
I'm always amazed by folks whogo out and really do active things.
(16:14):
I remember at one point mybrother and his wife and kids, they
went to Pride and we don'teven live in the same area, but my
brother went and he was like,you know, I'm going to support you.
And like that really stuckwith me.
So I just think there's a lotof ways that you can show your support.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, there's a verylong answer to that.
(16:35):
Sorry, but no, no.
Well, I think it's, you know,again, it's complex and it deserves
a long answer because thereare so many different ways.
But there are also things thatcan be, that can feel trite or can
feel not great.
So I think it's important totalk about that as well in the sense
(16:57):
that I think there are a lotof well meaning people who are so
afraid they're going to make amistake or are ill informed or doing
our own personal work becausewe all have our biases, we all have
our things that are just kindof stuck that we all have to work
(17:18):
through.
Right.
I get this question a lot fromfolks, parents who come in there.
You know, they're like, I'mnot sure that I, I handled this right
when my kid came out.
And the advice that I alwaysgive to people when I'm able to talk
with people is to say the bestway that you can support somebody
when they come out and this isjust my opinion is, is to just tell
(17:39):
them you love them.
Tell them, thank you forsharing this with me.
I think it's okay to say Idon't totally understand, I don't
understand this, but I believeyou and I'm really like thankful
that you shared this with meand not really making it a big deal.
Right.
Like immediately.
You don't need to go into likequestions and tell me this and tell
me that there's Going to belots of space for that.
(18:00):
But I just think initiallyjust sort of saying, I love you,
I'm here for you.
And like, thank you fortelling me.
And.
And I hear so much from peoplethat when their parent or their sibling
just was like, oh, okay, cool.
Like, I'm really glad you toldme that.
Yeah.
That's like the best responsethat I hear from clients over and
(18:21):
over again is when somebodydoes that and they're just like,
oh, thank God it wasn't a bigdeal, you know?
Right.
And I think too, I think it'simportant for people to realize like,
how much like the internal,like, going over that over and over
and over before one actuallysays it out loud.
(18:41):
Like, they're so much thatgoes on.
So for someone to come out toyou to tell you who they are is such
a huge, big deal.
And your response is like, andit doesn't have to be a fancy, long
winded, you know, monologue.
I mean, saying exactly whatyou said, I think is so fantastic.
(19:01):
I love you.
Thank you.
This is incredible.
Whatever, you know, just likethat space of this is pretty amazing.
So.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I think one other thing Iwanted to say is that I get a lot
of people that ask me and say,like, I, I know I messed up.
I know I messed up with my kid.
And I feel like they, I can'trepair that.
(19:22):
And I always encourage peopleto say, like, you can repair that,
especially with the parentchild relationship.
You know, your kid wants tohave a bond with you, they want to
be accepted by you.
So if you go back to them andsay, like, oh my God, I really messed
this up and this is how Ireally feel and this is what I should
have said.
I, I've just seen a lot of healing.
And so I always encourageparents, like, don't feel like you
(19:44):
can't go back.
Like, don't make it all aboutyou, but just make it about them.
Like, you know, this is how Ireally wanted to respond and this
is how I feel now.
And I've just seen lots ofhealing between parents and their
kids.
I love that.
Yeah.
That is, that is own it.
Own it.
And.
Yeah, right.
I mean, just like anything else.
Right.
Like, if I yell at my son, I'mlike, I shouldn't have done that.
(20:05):
Like, you know, and I wasstressed and that I, you know, I'm
sorry.
And.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, we, we have to do thatin our relationships for all kinds
of things.
And so definitely can do that.
Right?
Absolutely.
And I think that is such afreeing Thing.
I mean, I did that rightbefore I got on this, this interview
today.
I had go in and apologize tomy son who I yelled at a half hour
(20:27):
ago.
You're like, man, Yep.
Yeah.
I mean, literally.
But that's like part of beinga parent and it's part of being a
human and it is so importantand it's okay.
I think that is like such animportant thing to remind people
that it's okay to own it andjust keep moving and embrace that
(20:49):
you have thoughts on kind ofnot necessarily the difference, but
perhaps occasions when youwould not come out or living stealth
as to quote you, or livingopen and when, when do that, when
not to do that.
(21:11):
I'd love to hear you talkabout that a little bit because I've
heard, you know, a lot ofpeople talking about this in different
ways, in different terminology.
And I'm curious again,especially given the times that we're
in currently, which are, arefearful, it can be scary.
And so I want to know what youthink about this.
(21:32):
So a couple overarching thingsis one, you're right.
Like always, safety first.
So if a client comes to me andthey say, like, you know, I'm a trucker,
I work in this reallymasculine industry, it's not going
to be safe for me to come out.
Like, as it's my job tosometimes challenge them on that,
whether it is possible, butalso just to believe them.
So like, safety first, 100%.
(21:52):
But secondly, it's differentfor everybody, right?
Like, so what I would say isif the amount of outness, in my opinion,
in a healthy way, shouldcorrespond with the degree of intimacy
with that person.
Right?
Like, I'm not going to comeout to my neighbor necessarily who
I speak with once a month andknow nothing about them.
(22:13):
Why would I tell them that I'mtrans right now?
In my case, I have someneighbors that found out because
I, I did a local news likething and so now they know and they
came by and told me that theysaw my interview.
So I was like, okay, well Iguess now you know.
But only I would never comeout to them because I'm not friends
with them.
I really don't have arelationship with them.
Whereas my, especially as atherapist walking with people on
(22:34):
this journey a lot, I feellike when people really hide that
from friends or even coworkers maybe that they're close
to or certain family members,I've noticed two things.
One, it keeps you like isolated.
At the end of the day, it doesseem to isolate people and it makes
(22:55):
it tough to just feel likeyou're really openly yourself.
And there's something forhuman beings about honestly and authentically
living as who they are that'ssort of just like an existential
thing.
I don't know that dogs feelthat way, but we have this sort of
need internally to be seen, right?
We have these, like, mirrorneurons we really want to be seen.
That's part of evolutionary,like being part of community, right?
(23:19):
So if.
If you have a friend thatyou're getting to know and you feel
like you're getting closer tothem, like, can begin to consider
coming out to them.
Right.
But if it's somebody thatyou're just not ever going to have
a close friendship with, then,like, don't come out to them if you
don't want to.
Right.
Because it.
It almost like doesn't makesense for the level of the relationship.
(23:39):
The other thing I've noticedis that when people really don't
come out and there's big areasof their life where they don't come,
I've just noticed as atherapist that it seems to sort of
stall, stall or stymie their transitions.
It's almost like they can'tfully embrace who they are.
There's part of them that isjust like, stuck.
(24:00):
And obviously sometimes it'snot safe to come out in certain places,
so they have to do that.
But it's just something I'venoticed that I feel like it keeps
people from really, reallymoving into the fullness of who they
are.
That makes so much sense.
The safety thing, obviously isa huge concern right now for a lot
(24:20):
of people.
I would love to touch on thisa tiny bit, just to get your perspective
on everything that's comethrough, why you think it was a first
line item order of business,what and what can be done?
What can people do to protect?
(24:41):
What can people do to advocate?
And I know that you have areally good source that you're going
to share too.
All right, so let's start withthe source.
I really am always reading theIndependent journalism by Erin Reed.
She does Aaron in the Morningand she reports independently and
specifically focuses on allthe different laws that are happening
(25:03):
across the country.
The positive things thathappens, the lawsuits, the executive
orders.
And she also breaks them down.
I mean, frankly, I feel likeshe's pretty genius.
She goes to them and reallybreaks it down and makes it really
applicable so you understandwhat's in them and what.
What it probably means, whatit could mean.
And a lot of times, especiallywith executive orders, they're directives
to Agencies, they're notactually laws.
(25:25):
So it's right, it's sometimeslike, are they going to be enforced?
How will it be enforced?
Who's going to enforce it?
So there's, there's a lotthere, but she really breaks it all
down.
So Erin in the morning, that'swhere hands down, I go down go for.
Most of my information also.
Okay, yep.
YouTube, tick tock.
You know, she does videos andshe does written format.
(25:47):
I really like the writtenformat because it really goes into
detail and goes.
It will sort of have like,here's a piece of the executive order
and here's what that means andthen we'll go kind of line by line.
That mean that especially inmy role, you know that we have about
450 active clients and they'reall coming to us right now asking
us what do we do?
What does this mean?
(26:07):
And some of what we, we don'tknow because it's all in flux.
But.
Right.
So it's, it's to me to kind ofbe really looking at those things.
So going back to what was therest of your question?
I know about safety, right?
About safety.
I think for me it was justkind of talking about my feelings
and my perspective on it too.
Obviously it was somethingthat they ran on.
(26:29):
I know that they'd like topick something to make people scared
of.
Right.
So unfortunately, trans peoplegot to be the.
We're going to be afraid oftrans people.
I don't, I don't understand that.
So that's part of my question,is why that either?
Well, I mean, I have thoughtson it.
(26:50):
Okay, share your thoughts.
I want to know.
So, I mean, my personalexperience is I came out as a lesbian
in 1997 in eastern Tennessee.
They're not a very good placeto be a young 18 year old queer person.
And so, you know, I've had theopportunity to sort of see the shifts
and changes for the gaycommunity as well as now for the,
(27:11):
for the trans community.
And so I feel like I'm kind ofliving through this twice because,
you know, in the 2000s it wassort of like gay people are ruining
the country, gay people arebreaking down families.
But, but that came on theheels of more visibility, right?
So it became more visible,people were fighting for rights,
people were coming out allover the place and there was like
(27:31):
a big backlash.
So.
So in one way this kind oflike tracks a little bit, right.
The last like 10 years,there's been more and more visibility,
more and more being more vocal.
And so there was like aBacklash against that.
Right.
So I see this a little bit asa pattern.
I think that what's happeningnow is even, it feels even more intense
(27:52):
and more dangerous and harmfulthan, you know, previously, sort
of like in the 2000s aroundgay folks.
But I think that has way moreto do about polarization in our country
and the type of politics thatwe have right now.
So, you know, it is mindboggling in a sense, because I'm
like, we're, we're 1% of the population.
Like, I mean, it's just, whyput all this energy and time into
(28:14):
1% of the population?
But I do think it does acouple things.
Like it makes them look macho,kind of, you know, bad.
It makes them look likethey're doing something.
And there's, you know, when I,when I, you know, I do read sort
of like I'm in some, somegroups online that are really like
right wing groups.
And part of it is I kind ofwant to hear what they're saying.
And they love it.
(28:35):
I mean, this is everythingthat's happened politically.
They love it.
They're eating it up.
Right.
And so there's a, as a, as atherapist, there's a site in certain,
like psychology, right.
So there, it's also, you know,trans people, we have relatively
zero power, right?
So it's like, why go after agroup has zero power, but also makes
it very easy to go after.
Right?
Like, we're a very, very easy target.
(28:56):
I think it makes sense whenyou look at like the kind of energy
that our current politics onthe right wing are feeding into and
this sort of like, target avulnerable group that is, in a way,
I think, you know, peopledon't know a lot about trans people,
partly because there's so fewof us.
Also because so many of us dopass, right.
(29:16):
Like once we get so far alongin our transition, people say like,
I don't know any trans people.
And I'm like, you're talkingto one, you know.
Right.
And so, so what helped the gaycommunity, and I saw this very much
so was visibility.
The more as I went through the2000s, right, the more people would
say, oh yeah, I know myneighbor's gay and my uncle's gay
and whatever, people juststarted going like, oh yeah, it doesn't
(29:37):
really matter.
Those are fine people.
It's my co worker, it's fine.
But like, I, in a way, when weare closeted as trans people, it
makes it more difficult for people.
And I don't mean closeted in abad way because I'M not necessarily
closeted when my neighborsdon't know that I'm trans.
Right.
It's just.
I'm just living my life being myself.
(29:58):
Right, Right.
But whereas if I was a gayperson and I had a male partner,
then people wouldautomatically know, oh, that's a
gay couple.
Right.
So the more there's, like,visibility and people understand
who trans or gay people are,the more it kind of like, demystifies
it.
And it's like, oh, you're just people.
You know, like, we're just people.
We.
We get our.
We put our trash out like you,and we, like, have to shovel our
(30:20):
sidewalk.
I don't know.
It's like, we're not doinganything different than you are.
Right.
So.
But.
But.
So I think that's, you know,sometimes being able to not be visible
and just living your life as atrans person makes it harder for
us as a community to be seenas just like everybody else around
you.
Right.
So.
(30:41):
But to me, I see it as two things.
We're sort of like political capital.
Right?
Like, we're just like an easy target.
And secondly, people areuneducated and they're afraid.
So people are afraid.
They don't.
They.
They're believing a lot of propaganda.
They're believing a lot of transphobia.
They don't even know they have.
They just don't know.
And they're.
You know, I also feel likepeople are just struggling in general
(31:03):
in their life.
They're struggling with theirmental health across the board.
They're struggling with, youknow, economics and inflation.
And so they're not kind ofgoing like, let me see, with what
really are trans people.
It's just like, people arejust overwhelmed in their lives,
and so they just kind of like,you know, so how.
Do we begin to shift that narrative?
Because I think that's like,kind of the next step.
(31:25):
Right.
That narrative needs to be shift.
Shifted.
People need to be educated.
Yes.
It is all based on fear.
That's been my feeling is, sohow do we do this?
Like, how do we talk to.
You know, I'm thinking ofpeople in my head.
I'm sure we can all think ofpeople in our head as we're listening
(31:45):
to this right now, right.
That we would say, okay,listen, like, what.
What are you afraid of?
Like, is that kind of how youstart out?
Like, what can I.
What questions can I answerfor you?
What.
What are you curious about?
How would you start that kindof conversation with somebody?
Or how would you suggest that,you know, somebody like me that is
(32:07):
just, you Know, like a kind ofneutral person goes out into the
world and says, okay, let's,let's do something about this.
Like, this is nuts.
Why are we doing this?
Let's talk.
I mean, I do really think thatallies and people who are not trans
are often in some ways thebest people to talk to.
Your neighbors and yourfriends and your family members.
So, you know, my, mysuggestion would be like, it just.
(32:30):
It's going to come up.
It's.
It's going to come up.
These executive orders aregoing to come up.
Oh, you know, oh, that personat work is transitioning.
And you can begin aconversation about that.
Like, oh, how do you feelabout that?
Or what's going on?
Or like, what are yourthoughts on?
So I think you can start thoseconversations with people.
You don't have to really startthem out of the blue.
They'll sort of come upbecause it's kind of in the, it's
(32:50):
in like the current conversation.
I also, you know, I think thatwhen you were asking before about
how did people get involvedand how do people make change and
sort of help the community,what I always say to people is just,
you know, you can't do italone, right?
You can do it alone, liketalking to your family member or
(33:10):
something like that, orsupporting a friend that you have.
That's trans.
Like, those are really thingsthat you can do alone.
But the bigger thing is likejoining organizations, like local
organizations, P Flags andpride organizations.
And you know, there's lots ofdifferent places that are doing things,
giving money.
I mean, that's one of thethings that, that, that is fueling
(33:33):
some of this hate is a lot ofmoney that's gone into it, right?
So I would say, like, if youdon't have time, energy to go stand
on the street corner with asign or show up at a pride and volunteer
whatever it is, like, givesome money.
It doesn't matter how much it is.
Just like, do something that,you know, that's helpful.
(33:53):
Yeah.
And it does.
I mean, it doesn't matter ifit's a little bit.
That's how things are going to shift.
I have one more thought.
One of the things I reallyencourage people to do is, is think
your skills, right?
If you are a graphic designer,go to a non profit in your area that's
supporting LGBTQ people andsay, I'm a graphic designer.
Do you need graphic design?
(34:15):
If you're an attorney, youknow, like, go to one of the nonprofits
and ask them if they need anykind of legal advice.
Like, can you join their boardjust to give legal advice if whatever
it is that you have a skill.
And so that's what I was goingto say about myself.
Like, I'm not somebody who'sgoing to go out and, you know, be
part of some march or parademaybe or protest.
But in my.
I'm doing what I'm doing.
(34:36):
I'm a therapist.
And so I am giving all of myenergy to supporting my community
through what my skills are.
And I think that's how peopletap into.
Because people go like, oh,well, I, I'm not going to be good
at that.
And it's like, think aboutwhat you are good at and somebody
needs that skill and plug that in.
Yeah.
Oh, that's perfect.
Yes.
(34:56):
Thank you for saying that.
Because that is, there's,there's a place for everyone, for
everyone to be helpful and,and I think too, it' very easy right
now to get either kind offrozen and like the onslaught, right?
There's just so much that youjust kind of shut down.
And I mean, I know I havefriends who are like, I've just powered
(35:19):
off, like, I just cannot take it.
And I think there's definitelya practice to being able to kind
of dose your information, right?
And I know, like, and haveyour good sources like Aaron Reed
and have like your, you know,your three good things that you listen
to a day that you really getthat solid information, you do the
(35:39):
work that you can in the worldand you know, you keep moving forward.
So this is so solid, so helpful.
I want to just kind of end ontalking about trans people specifically,
really accepting and lovingwho they are, regardless of all of
this ugliness that's going onin the world and your thoughts, your
(36:06):
advice on how to do that.
And so for anyone trans who islistening and also people who love
their trans child or theirtrans friend, how can they help them
hold space and support them asthey're either questioning or just
feeling lousy in this time?
(36:29):
I mean, okay, so there's morethan one, one part to that question.
But I think that what I alwaysencourage people to do is just believe
and accept the person in frontof you so you don't have to understand.
And I get parents that say, Idon't think I'm ever going to understand
what's going on my kidnapp.
And I think you don't have to understand.
It's okay.
(36:50):
All you have to do is lovethem, support them.
I don't, I don't understand myson's love of anime.
I mean, I Just I don't haveto, I just can like, you know, accept
what he likes, not force himto like something else.
And so it's similar with thegender identity.
It's like be there with them,say I'm on this journey with you.
And so even if you're afriend, just saying, I'm on this
(37:10):
journey with you, like, I wantto learn, I'm going to learn as I
watch you and I'm going to dosome learning.
So I think that it reallyhelps to educate yourself in education
is so easy now in a way, right?
Like there's so many videos,there's so many people sharing their
stories, autobiographies.
There's really is a lot of information.
There's podcast like this, somany ways you can inform yourself.
(37:31):
And so it's not for a lack ofavailable information.
It's people taking the time tojust go like, okay, I'm gonna go
actually try to put myselfinto what is going on with my friend
or my family member.
Right.
And then at the end of theday, you know, love is really accepting
that person in front of you.
Like, I, I, I love you and I'mhere with you for your journey.
(37:53):
Right?
Yeah.
So I think that's one of thebest things you can do is just educate
yourself and just go along forthe ride with them.
I love that.
And then just, I think theother piece of that was how to really
anchor in with all thepolitical stuff coming at us.
(38:15):
How do you anchor in thatsense of self worth and holding on
to who you are?
Yeah, this is definitelysomething I'm working with people
on in therapy and I've had toeven go through this a little bit
myself in the last couple ofweeks as some of this has been happening
and really looked at.
(38:35):
Is it helpful?
Is it, is it wise to belooking outside of myself?
Even like a governmentdocument or something that the government
says to validate who I am.
Right.
And so my kind of looking atmyself and going, okay, maybe they're
going to reverse my passportat some point.
If I try to renew it, maybe itwill say female and on again.
But.
And so that felt reallyhurtful and it felt kind of dehumanizing.
(38:57):
And then I really had toreflect on, but do I need them to
tell me who I am?
Right.
Like I'm telling them who theyI am and if they're not accepting
that, that's on them.
Right.
I just, I am who I am.
And so the more I can justlike get really clear with myself,
that's What I encourage peopleto do, just get really clear with
(39:18):
themselves on who they are andreally take a look inside about why
is it that I need somebodyelse to affirm me?
Why is it, is it that I needsomebody else to say?
Because let's say to people islike, that's a treadmill, right?
Like, it's like, oh, you know,my friend's gonna say, oh, I accept
you.
And then I feel better aboutmyself, but then I'm gonna have to
(39:38):
go somewhere else.
It's just gonna keep comingback until I really, a hundred percent
just accept me.
And.
And that is work thatsometimes does really take time in
therapy, but that's somethingI work with people on.
Like, even with their bodies,you transitioning, there's going
to be limits to where you cantake your body and even cisgender
people deal with that, right?
Like, if I want to do plasticsurgery on myself because I don't
(40:01):
like certain features of mine,there's a limit to what I can do
with that.
And then there is sort oflike, okay, this is the body I have.
This is the.
This is who I am.
And I can walk around everyday and I can be miserable.
I can hate myself.
And if I hate myself, itdoesn't really matter if people outside
of me love me and accept me.
Me, right?
(40:21):
Because I will keep comingback to.
I don't totally believe myself.
I don't.
I don't really totally love myself.
And it does.
It takes time to get there.
But that's something that Iwork on a lot with clients.
And one thing going back towhat you're saying about how did
people with everything that'sgoing on.
So I do think it's reallyimportant to not flood yourself,
(40:43):
right?
Like, there's so much happening.
I think more than ever, it'simportant not to have your head in
the sand and actually bepaying attention, but taking breaks
from it and not looking at itall day long and because it can almost
become like, self interest, right?
Like, especially if you'rebeing attacked and you're constantly
reading it and you know it'shurting your mental health.
It's like you're at a certainpoint, you're letting them hurt you,
(41:05):
right?
Because you're letting it in.
You have to say no.
Right now, in my personallife, I'm safe, right?
And I do this with clientssometimes who get really flooded
and I sort of say, okay, yes,all that is true.
And we don't know what's goingto happen.
We do not know what thegovernment's going to do.
We do not know what's going tohappen at work when you come out.
But right now are you safesitting here in my office, like,
(41:27):
and just getting people tolike, get really clear with like
right now?
And that when you feel safeinside, it's actually so much easier
to face potential dangers externally.
And trans people really dohave to face that on a regular basis.
So the more that we can feelsafe inside, it gives us the strength
to kind of face the world andnot get totally unmoored by it.
(41:52):
Thank you.
Yeah, you're welcome.
And that's a lot of my ownpersonal work.
Right.
Like, I, I, this is stuff thatI, I've had to do in my own self
and you know, then I can kindof share with clients and guide them.
Sure.
Well, and I think that too issuch a great, that's such a great
lesson for everyone.
It's so true.
(42:13):
Yeah.
And, and it's so humanizingand I think that is just so important.
So thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Tell me really quick, telleveryone really quick how they can
find you.
I will have all of yourcontact information in the show notes,
(42:33):
but I would love for you tosay it as well right now.
Okay.
Yeah, I'd love to.
The one thing I want to goback and say is this, this sort of
advice that I was talkingabout is I find that it, it is just
as important to hear thatbecause parents of trans kids get
really dysregulated, reallyafraid, really concerned and they
(42:54):
have a hard time not, notgetting flooded by everything that's
happening too.
So kind of the same thing forparents and family members.
So arrive therapy.
We are@arightherapy.com wehave social media, TikTok, Instagram.
We do have a YouTube.
We don't have many peoplefollow us on YouTube, but all the
same in person, I do videosregularly on, on how to parent, how
(43:15):
to support your trans kid,myths about gender affirming care,
just stuff, just stuff like that.
We do see folks in a varietyof states who are licensed in a variety
of states.
And so definitely if you'relooking for a therapist, I think
there's something reallybeautiful about having a trans therapist
in particular for trans teens.
Trans teens don't really havereal life models.
(43:36):
They don't have people intheir life.
Usually they can look at andthey can say, oh, that's what it's
like to be a trans adult.
And so kids feel, feel reallylike loss, like what does it mean
to grow up and be a trans person.
And so being able to sit witha trans therapist, you can kind of
go, yeah, like, I really getthat, you know, and I understand
your experience, but also,like, I can get you to the other
(44:00):
side.
Like, I've gotten to the other side.
You can do anything you wantto do with your life.
And I can say that because I'mdoing it right?
And so, you know, it.
It.
When I say to them, oh, youknow, it's important to accept who
you are, they're not lookingat me going like, you don't know
what I'm talking about, right?
It's like, so.
So we can kind of feel like,take the therapy to deeper places
(44:21):
because we have that shared experience.
Right?
So, anyway, long winded way ofsaying arrivetherapy.com we have
11 therapists, everybody's LGBTQ.
Many of us are trans and nonbinary, and we'd love to support
anyone who needs.
Just look over there.
Happy.
Love it.
Thank you.
Thank you, Alexander.
Such a pleasure to have you on today.
(44:43):
Yeah, thank you so much.
I really, really appreciate it.
You're very welcome.
We are in a time whereinformation is chaotic, shocking,
and much of it nonsensical.
Today, I'm honored to welcomea guest to help us parse through
a segment of our current events.
One of the best ways tounderstand anything is to talk to
those who are most affected orwho the pundits are talking about.
(03:28):
Alexander Stefanini is alicensed professional counselor,
trans man and the owner ofArrive Therapy.
Alexander has been a licensedcounselor since 2004 and has worked
in many roles in the mentalhealth field.
Currently he is the owner andclinical director of Arrive Therapy,
which is an all LGBTQ+counseling practice that works primarily
(03:50):
with trans and queer folks ofall ages.
Arrive has a unique team ofall trans and gay therapists who
work with clients on mentalhealth and gender identity and sexuality.
Another focus of Arrive issupporting parents of trans kids,
teens and adults when theirchild has come out as trans or gay.
(04:11):
Arrive also offers supportgroups, including Trans Teen support
Groups, Trans Adult Supportgroups, and Parents of trans Kids
support groups.
Without further ado, I amdelighted to welcome Alexander.
Welcome back to Just Breathe, everyone.
I am so, so excited tointroduce today's guest.
(04:33):
Alexander.
Thank you so much for beinghere with me today.
It's very timely conversation.
Unfortunately, we're going tostart out really broad and I want
everyone to know a little bitabout who you are, what you do in
this world and we will go from there.
(04:54):
All right, awesome.
Thank you.
I am Alexander Stefanini.
My pronouns are he, him.
I am a licensed professional counselor.
I've been licensed for 20years and been doing family work,
individual therapy, communitymental health and I'm dad of two
kids and I am the owner ofAride Therapy which is a trans focused
(05:14):
all LGBTQ counseling practice.
It's a group counselingpractice that does regular mental
health therapy as reallyworking with families and folks on
transition related stuff,gender identity and gender dysphoria.
Twenty years ago when I gotlicensed, I was in my 20s.
I actually wasn't specificallydoing work with trans folks or LGBTQ
folks.
(05:34):
I was historically I'm afamily therapist.
So I did a lot of intensive inhome, a lot of crisis work, really
working with people, kids thatwere in crisis and then their systems,
including families,neighborhoods, other support folks.
So I did that for many yearsand got moved up into supervision
roles, clinical supervisortype roles.
And it really wasn't until Icame out and started transitioning
(05:58):
about seven, eight years agothat people started coming to me
and saying, you know, I have atrans client that's coming out of
this program or I have A transsomebody who's coming out and can
you see them?
So they're just in where I wasoutside of Philadelphia, there weren't
at that time really any trans providers.
And so at that time I waslike, well, I haven't really studied
gender studies, but I'm goingthrough this.
And so let me see if theintersection of my personal experience
(06:23):
and my professional experiencewill help me provide good care for
folks that are transitioningor exploring their gender identity.
So, you know, for me, I'vereally learned that people don't
transition in isolation.
There's no way to reallytransition in isolation.
You're gonna, your, yourfamily has to transition with you,
your friends have totransition with you, work has to
(06:44):
transition with you.
Right?
So anywhere that you come outand you share who you are, for people
to stay in your life, theyreally do need to kind of transition
with you.
And so being a family systemstherapist has really dovetailed really
nicely with that because oneof the focuses that's really important
to me when people come in hereand they're, you know, talking about
(07:06):
transitioning, our parentscome in with their teenagers, is
to be really looking at theirwhole system and how can we support
everybody around them, youknow, breaking down their own stereotypes,
asking questions, learning,and kind of beginning to shift how
they see this person to whothat person is, sharing that they
(07:27):
are.
So it's really important to methat we're working with people's
families and people's friendsand communities.
Absolutely, absolutely.
That's something that I've,that makes so much sense and is so
helpful on the kind of thefront end as the person is going
through what they're goingthrough, like really having their,
their biggest support system, right?
(07:49):
Their, their family and theirfriends right there with them, kind
of walking through each one ofthose steps.
I'm very curious about thisbecause this is not my area of expertise.
And so I, I talk a lot aboutthe, you know, coming out process
for someone who's coming outas gay at which.
(08:10):
And it's very different whensomebody's transitioning.
If you had somebody who cameto you and was really struggling
with telling their friendsthey were gay as opposed to telling
their friends that they weretransitioning, how would your advice
differ or how would you guidethem through that process differently
or would you?
(08:31):
Well, you know, I do thinkcoming out as trans is a lot more
complex than coming out as gay.
Right?
Say I come out as gay topeople at work, it's kind of like
most people are going to go,oh, okay, you Know, like, oh, you
have a wife instead of a husband.
Like it's, it's really not abig deal.
That doesn't really requiremuch of people.
I also think that, and thisis, I just want to say that when
(08:53):
some of what I'm saying reallyis my own perspective and there will
be people even within thetrans community that have different
ideas, different opinions,their experience of being trans is
going to be different than mine.
So I really can only speak formyself, but I do feel like, you know,
working with the amount oftrans clients that we hear have at
arrive therapy, I get a prettygood overview of kind of like themes
(09:17):
and how things are different.
So I think that coming out astrans, part of it is that I think
that when a person comes outas gay, they want to be seen for
who they are.
Right.
Similar to when you come outas trans.
But for, for a lot of times Ithink for gay people is.
(09:38):
The visibility is reallyimportant to them.
The visibility is like, that's how.
Because there is sort of this normative.
People assume you'reheterosexual unless they know you
are gay.
Right, Right.
So people want to be, I thinka little bit more.
It's important to them to beout to be people, to be acknowledging
(09:58):
that they know that they aregay or have like a same sex partner.
Right.
I think for trans people it's,and I'm thinking very much of binary
trans people because I thinkfor non binary folks it is different,
it's like a different dynamic.
But for folks who are binary,a lot of times there is sort of like
a coming out of the closet,which is important for people around
(10:18):
us as we're going through thetransition for people to know who
we are, for people to adjust,for people to go, okay, I see you
for you.
But at a certain point I feellike a lot of especially binary trans
folks almost don't want tohave to come out anymore.
Right.
So if I go into the store and,and nobody realizes that I'm trans
or I make a new friend andthat person doesn't realize that
(10:41):
I'm trans in some ways that iskind of, I think, not necessarily
to hide it, but to, to just beseen for who you are.
So when, when I, I meet acontractor at my house and they just
treat me like any other guy,that is probably one of the most
affirming things I can experience.
It's not that I'm not, it'snot that I'm trying to be closeted.
It's just that they really areseeing me for me.
(11:02):
Right.
And it's often more just likewith people, like if I have a friend,
something I'm going to get toknow a little bit more then I, in
order to be, I think, movepast that kind of, you know, just
like a relationship you mighthave with a neighbor or, or someone
to move into more intimacy.
I find that it's importantlike friendships and folks to then
(11:23):
come out again.
Right.
Sort of saying like, you know,oh, you know, you, you know me as
a man and I am, but also I'm,I'm a trans man.
And that's just my personalopinion that I always say to people,
you know, I'm not trying to bea CIS man.
Like I, I will never be a CIS man.
That doesn't change that I'm aman and I live as a man and I feel
(11:46):
very comfortable this way andthat that's who I am.
But I will never be a CIS manand I'm not trying to be.
Right.
So I think even in some of thestuff you hear from like the media
and government and all thisstuff, it's almost like you're trying
to pretend to be somethingthat you're not.
And I don't really feel thatthat's fundame true.
So when somebody, when I don'thave, when I'm, when I, in a way,
sort of like when I pass it,it's, it's very affirming of who
(12:12):
I am.
Right.
Does that make sense?
So, so it's like coming out isa lot more complex.
So it's also more complex inthe sense of, say I come out at work
and things have to change.
Right.
Like, you know what happens?
How do I, you know, begin tophysically transition at work, like
begin to wear the clothes thatfeel good to me at work.
(12:34):
How do you know, stuff getlike name changes and gender stuff.
So, so that it's more complexthan just saying, oh yeah, I have
a same sex partner because itrequires a certain amount of knowledge
and change on other people's part.
How can friends be supportiveof somebody that is transitioning?
(12:58):
That is because that all makesso much sense.
How can they be protective?
How can they be, how can theybe advocating?
I think there's so manydifferent ways and again, I think
with being trans and goingthrough a transition, there's, there's
different ways at different stages.
Right.
So thinking back to when I wasfirst transitioning and I was the
(13:20):
supervisor at a mental healthfacility that had a bunch of different
therapists and there were someof those therapists that were really,
they Were a little bit older,they were struggling, a little bit
more conservative folks whowere struggling to.
Although they were respectful,they were really struggling to use
my name and pronouns.
Okay.
And at some point, one of thetherapists came up to me and said,
hey, is it okay with you if Igo talk with them?
(13:42):
I just want to find out, youknow, what is the barrier?
Where are they struggling with this?
And, like, really employ themto kind of, like, implore them.
Sorry.
To get.
To get on board and kind ofbegin to make the effort to use your
name and pronounce.
And that was really, reallysupportive to me because I was like,
I don't have to go fight that fight.
Somebody else is going to gohave that conversation in a way that
(14:02):
probably even will feel, you know.
You know, those therapists aregoing to feel less defensive just
talking with one of theircolleagues and not talking with me
or having HR talk with them orsomething like that.
So I think there's a lot ofways you can, you know, even just,
you know, say you're at afamily outing and, you know, somebody's
uncle misgenders them, not,like, stepping in for that trans
(14:27):
person.
I think, especially in thebeginning stages, really stepping
in and.
And doing some of that, like,hard work.
Because my experience, andreally of all the clients that I've
had, is that in those first.
That first year, that firsttwo years, you feel really vulnerable.
You feel really vulnerable.
Everything feels really intense.
You're super scared ofrejection, you know, and you're.
(14:47):
You're.
You feel like you've justopened up this thing that you've
been hiding from.
A lot of people have beenhiding for a long time, right?
So to have other people dosome of that work for you and just
say, you know, just remindsomebody of your pronouns or even
be somebody who justconsistently does it.
Like, I do it a lot here with.
With parents who arestruggling with pronouns and names.
And I just continue to use theright pronouns and right names with
(15:09):
them.
Right.
And what I find in my sessionsis that they begin to do it.
And I know initially they'renot doing it at home, but they begin
to do it here.
And then I find that, like, I just.
So if you're a friend or aneighbor, you just.
Just use the right name and pronoun.
Just just keep at it and alsoremind the other people.
I also think that, like, forpeople in your life, friends, family
(15:29):
members, getting support, wesee a lot of parents here that have
maybe adult children who'vecome out, and the parents have no
control over whether the kid'sgoing to transition and they're freaking
out and they come in here andthey're really doing their own emotional
work on what does this mean?
What are their fears for their kids?
What are their own stigma thatthey carry?
Because we all trans people,we carry a certain amount of transphobia.
(15:53):
Like we've all internalizedthe stigma.
For example, recently with allthese executive orders coming out,
just having a few friends whoreached out to me and said, hey,
I'm thinking of you, you know,like, how are you feeling?
How is this impacting you?
So I think there are differentways at different points in time
that you can be supportive.
I'm always amazed by folks whogo out and really do active things.
(16:14):
I remember at one point mybrother and his wife and kids, they
went to Pride and we don'teven live in the same area, but my
brother went and he was like,you know, I'm going to support you.
And like that really stuckwith me.
So I just think there's a lotof ways that you can show your support.
Right?
Yeah, yeah, there's a verylong answer to that.
(16:35):
Sorry, but no, no.
Well, I think it's, you know,again, it's complex and it deserves
a long answer because thereare so many different ways.
But there are also things thatcan be, that can feel trite or can
feel not great.
So I think it's important totalk about that as well in the sense
(16:57):
that I think there are a lotof well meaning people who are so
afraid they're going to make amistake or are ill informed or doing
our own personal work becausewe all have our biases, we all have
our things that are just kindof stuck that we all have to work
(17:18):
through.
Right.
I get this question a lot fromfolks, parents who come in there.
You know, they're like, I'mnot sure that I, I handled this right
when my kid came out.
And the advice that I alwaysgive to people when I'm able to talk
with people is to say the bestway that you can support somebody
when they come out and this isjust my opinion is, is to just tell
(17:39):
them you love them.
Tell them, thank you forsharing this with me.
I think it's okay to say Idon't totally understand, I don't
understand this, but I believeyou and I'm really like thankful
that you shared this with meand not really making it a big deal.
Right.
Like immediately.
You don't need to go into likequestions and tell me this and tell
me that there's Going to belots of space for that.
(18:00):
But I just think initiallyjust sort of saying, I love you,
I'm here for you.
And like, thank you fortelling me.
And.
And I hear so much from peoplethat when their parent or their sibling
just was like, oh, okay, cool.
Like, I'm really glad you toldme that.
Yeah.
That's like the best responsethat I hear from clients over and
(18:21):
over again is when somebodydoes that and they're just like,
oh, thank God it wasn't a bigdeal, you know?
Right.
And I think too, I think it'simportant for people to realize like,
how much like the internal,like, going over that over and over
and over before one actuallysays it out loud.
(18:41):
Like, they're so much thatgoes on.
So for someone to come out toyou to tell you who they are is such
a huge, big deal.
And your response is like, andit doesn't have to be a fancy, long
winded, you know, monologue.
I mean, saying exactly whatyou said, I think is so fantastic.
(19:01):
I love you.
Thank you.
This is incredible.
Whatever, you know, just likethat space of this is pretty amazing.
So.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I think one other thing Iwanted to say is that I get a lot
of people that ask me and say,like, I, I know I messed up.
I know I messed up with my kid.
And I feel like they, I can'trepair that.
(19:22):
And I always encourage peopleto say, like, you can repair that,
especially with the parentchild relationship.
You know, your kid wants tohave a bond with you, they want to
be accepted by you.
So if you go back to them andsay, like, oh my God, I really messed
this up and this is how Ireally feel and this is what I should
have said.
I, I've just seen a lot of healing.
And so I always encourageparents, like, don't feel like you
(19:44):
can't go back.
Like, don't make it all aboutyou, but just make it about them.
Like, you know, this is how Ireally wanted to respond and this
is how I feel now.
And I've just seen lots ofhealing between parents and their
kids.
I love that.
Yeah.
That is, that is own it.
Own it.
And.
Yeah, right.
I mean, just like anything else.
Right.
Like, if I yell at my son, I'mlike, I shouldn't have done that.
(20:05):
Like, you know, and I wasstressed and that I, you know, I'm
sorry.
And.
Yeah.
Right.
Like, we, we have to do thatin our relationships for all kinds
of things.
And so definitely can do that.
Right?
Absolutely.
And I think that is such afreeing Thing.
I mean, I did that rightbefore I got on this, this interview
today.
I had go in and apologize tomy son who I yelled at a half hour
(20:27):
ago.
You're like, man, Yep.
Yeah.
I mean, literally.
But that's like part of beinga parent and it's part of being a
human and it is so importantand it's okay.
I think that is like such animportant thing to remind people
that it's okay to own it andjust keep moving and embrace that
(20:49):
you have thoughts on kind ofnot necessarily the difference, but
perhaps occasions when youwould not come out or living stealth
as to quote you, or livingopen and when, when do that, when
not to do that.
(21:11):
I'd love to hear you talkabout that a little bit because I've
heard, you know, a lot ofpeople talking about this in different
ways, in different terminology.
And I'm curious again,especially given the times that we're
in currently, which are, arefearful, it can be scary.
And so I want to know what youthink about this.
(21:32):
So a couple overarching thingsis one, you're right.
Like always, safety first.
So if a client comes to me andthey say, like, you know, I'm a trucker,
I work in this reallymasculine industry, it's not going
to be safe for me to come out.
Like, as it's my job tosometimes challenge them on that,
whether it is possible, butalso just to believe them.
So like, safety first, 100%.
(21:52):
But secondly, it's differentfor everybody, right?
Like, so what I would say isif the amount of outness, in my opinion,
in a healthy way, shouldcorrespond with the degree of intimacy
with that person.
Right?
Like, I'm not going to comeout to my neighbor necessarily who
I speak with once a month andknow nothing about them.
(22:13):
Why would I tell them that I'mtrans right now?
In my case, I have someneighbors that found out because
I, I did a local news likething and so now they know and they
came by and told me that theysaw my interview.
So I was like, okay, well Iguess now you know.
But only I would never comeout to them because I'm not friends
with them.
I really don't have arelationship with them.
Whereas my, especially as atherapist walking with people on
(22:34):
this journey a lot, I feellike when people really hide that
from friends or even coworkers maybe that they're close
to or certain family members,I've noticed two things.
One, it keeps you like isolated.
At the end of the day, it doesseem to isolate people and it makes
(22:55):
it tough to just feel likeyou're really openly yourself.
And there's something forhuman beings about honestly and authentically
living as who they are that'ssort of just like an existential
thing.
I don't know that dogs feelthat way, but we have this sort of
need internally to be seen, right?
We have these, like, mirrorneurons we really want to be seen.
That's part of evolutionary,like being part of community, right?
(23:19):
So if.
If you have a friend thatyou're getting to know and you feel
like you're getting closer tothem, like, can begin to consider
coming out to them.
Right.
But if it's somebody thatyou're just not ever going to have
a close friendship with, then,like, don't come out to them if you
don't want to.
Right.
Because it.
It almost like doesn't makesense for the level of the relationship.
(23:39):
The other thing I've noticedis that when people really don't
come out and there's big areasof their life where they don't come,
I've just noticed as atherapist that it seems to sort of
stall, stall or stymie their transitions.
It's almost like they can'tfully embrace who they are.
There's part of them that isjust like, stuck.
(24:00):
And obviously sometimes it'snot safe to come out in certain places,
so they have to do that.
But it's just something I'venoticed that I feel like it keeps
people from really, reallymoving into the fullness of who they
are.
That makes so much sense.
The safety thing, obviously isa huge concern right now for a lot
(24:20):
of people.
I would love to touch on thisa tiny bit, just to get your perspective
on everything that's comethrough, why you think it was a first
line item order of business,what and what can be done?
What can people do to protect?
(24:41):
What can people do to advocate?
And I know that you have areally good source that you're going
to share too.
All right, so let's start withthe source.
I really am always reading theIndependent journalism by Erin Reed.
She does Aaron in the Morningand she reports independently and
specifically focuses on allthe different laws that are happening
(25:03):
across the country.
The positive things thathappens, the lawsuits, the executive
orders.
And she also breaks them down.
I mean, frankly, I feel likeshe's pretty genius.
She goes to them and reallybreaks it down and makes it really
applicable so you understandwhat's in them and what.
What it probably means, whatit could mean.
And a lot of times, especiallywith executive orders, they're directives
to Agencies, they're notactually laws.
(25:25):
So it's right, it's sometimeslike, are they going to be enforced?
How will it be enforced?
Who's going to enforce it?
So there's, there's a lotthere, but she really breaks it all
down.
So Erin in the morning, that'swhere hands down, I go down go for.
Most of my information also.
Okay, yep.
YouTube, tick tock.
You know, she does videos andshe does written format.
(25:47):
I really like the writtenformat because it really goes into
detail and goes.
It will sort of have like,here's a piece of the executive order
and here's what that means andthen we'll go kind of line by line.
That mean that especially inmy role, you know that we have about
450 active clients and they'reall coming to us right now asking
us what do we do?
What does this mean?
(26:07):
And some of what we, we don'tknow because it's all in flux.
But.
Right.
So it's, it's to me to kind ofbe really looking at those things.
So going back to what was therest of your question?
I know about safety, right?
About safety.
I think for me it was justkind of talking about my feelings
and my perspective on it too.
Obviously it was somethingthat they ran on.
(26:29):
I know that they'd like topick something to make people scared
of.
Right.
So unfortunately, trans peoplegot to be the.
We're going to be afraid oftrans people.
I don't, I don't understand that.
So that's part of my question,is why that either?
Well, I mean, I have thoughtson it.
(26:50):
Okay, share your thoughts.
I want to know.
So, I mean, my personalexperience is I came out as a lesbian
in 1997 in eastern Tennessee.
They're not a very good placeto be a young 18 year old queer person.
And so, you know, I've had theopportunity to sort of see the shifts
and changes for the gaycommunity as well as now for the,
(27:11):
for the trans community.
And so I feel like I'm kind ofliving through this twice because,
you know, in the 2000s it wassort of like gay people are ruining
the country, gay people arebreaking down families.
But, but that came on theheels of more visibility, right?
So it became more visible,people were fighting for rights,
people were coming out allover the place and there was like
(27:31):
a big backlash.
So.
So in one way this kind oflike tracks a little bit, right.
The last like 10 years,there's been more and more visibility,
more and more being more vocal.
And so there was like aBacklash against that.
Right.
So I see this a little bit asa pattern.
I think that what's happeningnow is even, it feels even more intense
(27:52):
and more dangerous and harmfulthan, you know, previously, sort
of like in the 2000s aroundgay folks.
But I think that has way moreto do about polarization in our country
and the type of politics thatwe have right now.
So, you know, it is mindboggling in a sense, because I'm
like, we're, we're 1% of the population.
Like, I mean, it's just, whyput all this energy and time into
(28:14):
1% of the population?
But I do think it does acouple things.
Like it makes them look macho,kind of, you know, bad.
It makes them look likethey're doing something.
And there's, you know, when I,when I, you know, I do read sort
of like I'm in some, somegroups online that are really like
right wing groups.
And part of it is I kind ofwant to hear what they're saying.
And they love it.
(28:35):
I mean, this is everythingthat's happened politically.
They love it.
They're eating it up.
Right.
And so there's a, as a, as atherapist, there's a site in certain,
like psychology, right.
So there, it's also, you know,trans people, we have relatively
zero power, right?
So it's like, why go after agroup has zero power, but also makes
it very easy to go after.
Right?
Like, we're a very, very easy target.
(28:56):
I think it makes sense whenyou look at like the kind of energy
that our current politics onthe right wing are feeding into and
this sort of like, target avulnerable group that is, in a way,
I think, you know, peopledon't know a lot about trans people,
partly because there's so fewof us.
Also because so many of us dopass, right.
(29:16):
Like once we get so far alongin our transition, people say like,
I don't know any trans people.
And I'm like, you're talkingto one, you know.
Right.
And so, so what helped the gaycommunity, and I saw this very much
so was visibility.
The more as I went through the2000s, right, the more people would
say, oh yeah, I know myneighbor's gay and my uncle's gay
and whatever, people juststarted going like, oh yeah, it doesn't
(29:37):
really matter.
Those are fine people.
It's my co worker, it's fine.
But like, I, in a way, when weare closeted as trans people, it
makes it more difficult for people.
And I don't mean closeted in abad way because I'M not necessarily
closeted when my neighborsdon't know that I'm trans.
Right.
It's just.
I'm just living my life being myself.
(29:58):
Right, Right.
But whereas if I was a gayperson and I had a male partner,
then people wouldautomatically know, oh, that's a
gay couple.
Right.
So the more there's, like,visibility and people understand
who trans or gay people are,the more it kind of like, demystifies
it.
And it's like, oh, you're just people.
You know, like, we're just people.
We.
We get our.
We put our trash out like you,and we, like, have to shovel our
(30:20):
sidewalk.
I don't know.
It's like, we're not doinganything different than you are.
Right.
So.
But.
But.
So I think that's, you know,sometimes being able to not be visible
and just living your life as atrans person makes it harder for
us as a community to be seenas just like everybody else around
you.
Right.
So.
(30:41):
But to me, I see it as two things.
We're sort of like political capital.
Right?
Like, we're just like an easy target.
And secondly, people areuneducated and they're afraid.
So people are afraid.
They don't.
They.
They're believing a lot of propaganda.
They're believing a lot of transphobia.
They don't even know they have.
They just don't know.
And they're.
You know, I also feel likepeople are just struggling in general
(31:03):
in their life.
They're struggling with theirmental health across the board.
They're struggling with, youknow, economics and inflation.
And so they're not kind ofgoing like, let me see, with what
really are trans people.
It's just like, people arejust overwhelmed in their lives,
and so they just kind of like,you know, so how.
Do we begin to shift that narrative?
Because I think that's like,kind of the next step.
(31:25):
Right.
That narrative needs to be shift.
Shifted.
People need to be educated.
Yes.
It is all based on fear.
That's been my feeling is, sohow do we do this?
Like, how do we talk to.
You know, I'm thinking ofpeople in my head.
I'm sure we can all think ofpeople in our head as we're listening
(31:45):
to this right now, right.
That we would say, okay,listen, like, what.
What are you afraid of?
Like, is that kind of how youstart out?
Like, what can I.
What questions can I answerfor you?
What.
What are you curious about?
How would you start that kindof conversation with somebody?
Or how would you suggest that,you know, somebody like me that is
(32:07):
just, you Know, like a kind ofneutral person goes out into the
world and says, okay, let's,let's do something about this.
Like, this is nuts.
Why are we doing this?
Let's talk.
I mean, I do really think thatallies and people who are not trans
are often in some ways thebest people to talk to.
Your neighbors and yourfriends and your family members.
So, you know, my, mysuggestion would be like, it just.
(32:30):
It's going to come up.
It's.
It's going to come up.
These executive orders aregoing to come up.
Oh, you know, oh, that personat work is transitioning.
And you can begin aconversation about that.
Like, oh, how do you feelabout that?
Or what's going on?
Or like, what are yourthoughts on?
So I think you can start thoseconversations with people.
You don't have to really startthem out of the blue.
They'll sort of come upbecause it's kind of in the, it's
(32:50):
in like the current conversation.
I also, you know, I think thatwhen you were asking before about
how did people get involvedand how do people make change and
sort of help the community,what I always say to people is just,
you know, you can't do italone, right?
You can do it alone, liketalking to your family member or
(33:10):
something like that, orsupporting a friend that you have.
That's trans.
Like, those are really thingsthat you can do alone.
But the bigger thing is likejoining organizations, like local
organizations, P Flags andpride organizations.
And you know, there's lots ofdifferent places that are doing things,
giving money.
I mean, that's one of thethings that, that, that is fueling
(33:33):
some of this hate is a lot ofmoney that's gone into it, right?
So I would say, like, if youdon't have time, energy to go stand
on the street corner with asign or show up at a pride and volunteer
whatever it is, like, givesome money.
It doesn't matter how much it is.
Just like, do something that,you know, that's helpful.
(33:53):
Yeah.
And it does.
I mean, it doesn't matter ifit's a little bit.
That's how things are going to shift.
I have one more thought.
One of the things I reallyencourage people to do is, is think
your skills, right?
If you are a graphic designer,go to a non profit in your area that's
supporting LGBTQ people andsay, I'm a graphic designer.
Do you need graphic design?
(34:15):
If you're an attorney, youknow, like, go to one of the nonprofits
and ask them if they need anykind of legal advice.
Like, can you join their boardjust to give legal advice if whatever
it is that you have a skill.
And so that's what I was goingto say about myself.
Like, I'm not somebody who'sgoing to go out and, you know, be
part of some march or parademaybe or protest.
But in my.
I'm doing what I'm doing.
(34:36):
I'm a therapist.
And so I am giving all of myenergy to supporting my community
through what my skills are.
And I think that's how peopletap into.
Because people go like, oh,well, I, I'm not going to be good
at that.
And it's like, think aboutwhat you are good at and somebody
needs that skill and plug that in.
Yeah.
Oh, that's perfect.
Yes.
(34:56):
Thank you for saying that.
Because that is, there's,there's a place for everyone, for
everyone to be helpful and,and I think too, it' very easy right
now to get either kind offrozen and like the onslaught, right?
There's just so much that youjust kind of shut down.
And I mean, I know I havefriends who are like, I've just powered
(35:19):
off, like, I just cannot take it.
And I think there's definitelya practice to being able to kind
of dose your information, right?
And I know, like, and haveyour good sources like Aaron Reed
and have like your, you know,your three good things that you listen
to a day that you really getthat solid information, you do the
(35:39):
work that you can in the worldand you know, you keep moving forward.
So this is so solid, so helpful.
I want to just kind of end ontalking about trans people specifically,
really accepting and lovingwho they are, regardless of all of
this ugliness that's going onin the world and your thoughts, your
(36:06):
advice on how to do that.
And so for anyone trans who islistening and also people who love
their trans child or theirtrans friend, how can they help them
hold space and support them asthey're either questioning or just
feeling lousy in this time?
(36:29):
I mean, okay, so there's morethan one, one part to that question.
But I think that what I alwaysencourage people to do is just believe
and accept the person in frontof you so you don't have to understand.
And I get parents that say, Idon't think I'm ever going to understand
what's going on my kidnapp.
And I think you don't have to understand.
It's okay.
(36:50):
All you have to do is lovethem, support them.
I don't, I don't understand myson's love of anime.
I mean, I Just I don't haveto, I just can like, you know, accept
what he likes, not force himto like something else.
And so it's similar with thegender identity.
It's like be there with them,say I'm on this journey with you.
And so even if you're afriend, just saying, I'm on this
(37:10):
journey with you, like, I wantto learn, I'm going to learn as I
watch you and I'm going to dosome learning.
So I think that it reallyhelps to educate yourself in education
is so easy now in a way, right?
Like there's so many videos,there's so many people sharing their
stories, autobiographies.
There's really is a lot of information.
There's podcast like this, somany ways you can inform yourself.
(37:31):
And so it's not for a lack ofavailable information.
It's people taking the time tojust go like, okay, I'm gonna go
actually try to put myselfinto what is going on with my friend
or my family member.
Right.
And then at the end of theday, you know, love is really accepting
that person in front of you.
Like, I, I, I love you and I'mhere with you for your journey.
(37:53):
Right?
Yeah.
So I think that's one of thebest things you can do is just educate
yourself and just go along forthe ride with them.
I love that.
And then just, I think theother piece of that was how to really
anchor in with all thepolitical stuff coming at us.
(38:15):
How do you anchor in thatsense of self worth and holding on
to who you are?
Yeah, this is definitelysomething I'm working with people
on in therapy and I've had toeven go through this a little bit
myself in the last couple ofweeks as some of this has been happening
and really looked at.
(38:35):
Is it helpful?
Is it, is it wise to belooking outside of myself?
Even like a governmentdocument or something that the government
says to validate who I am.
Right.
And so my kind of looking atmyself and going, okay, maybe they're
going to reverse my passportat some point.
If I try to renew it, maybe itwill say female and on again.
But.
And so that felt reallyhurtful and it felt kind of dehumanizing.
(38:57):
And then I really had toreflect on, but do I need them to
tell me who I am?
Right.
Like I'm telling them who theyI am and if they're not accepting
that, that's on them.
Right.
I just, I am who I am.
And so the more I can justlike get really clear with myself,
that's What I encourage peopleto do, just get really clear with
(39:18):
themselves on who they are andreally take a look inside about why
is it that I need somebodyelse to affirm me?
Why is it, is it that I needsomebody else to say?
Because let's say to people islike, that's a treadmill, right?
Like, it's like, oh, you know,my friend's gonna say, oh, I accept
you.
And then I feel better aboutmyself, but then I'm gonna have to
(39:38):
go somewhere else.
It's just gonna keep comingback until I really, a hundred percent
just accept me.
And.
And that is work thatsometimes does really take time in
therapy, but that's somethingI work with people on.
Like, even with their bodies,you transitioning, there's going
to be limits to where you cantake your body and even cisgender
people deal with that, right?
Like, if I want to do plasticsurgery on myself because I don't
(40:01):
like certain features of mine,there's a limit to what I can do
with that.
And then there is sort oflike, okay, this is the body I have.
This is the.
This is who I am.
And I can walk around everyday and I can be miserable.
I can hate myself.
And if I hate myself, itdoesn't really matter if people outside
of me love me and accept me.
Me, right?
(40:21):
Because I will keep comingback to.
I don't totally believe myself.
I don't.
I don't really totally love myself.
And it does.
It takes time to get there.
But that's something that Iwork on a lot with clients.
And one thing going back towhat you're saying about how did
people with everything that'sgoing on.
So I do think it's reallyimportant to not flood yourself,
(40:43):
right?
Like, there's so much happening.
I think more than ever, it'simportant not to have your head in
the sand and actually bepaying attention, but taking breaks
from it and not looking at itall day long and because it can almost
become like, self interest, right?
Like, especially if you'rebeing attacked and you're constantly
reading it and you know it'shurting your mental health.
It's like you're at a certainpoint, you're letting them hurt you,
(41:05):
right?
Because you're letting it in.
You have to say no.
Right now, in my personallife, I'm safe, right?
And I do this with clientssometimes who get really flooded
and I sort of say, okay, yes,all that is true.
And we don't know what's goingto happen.
We do not know what thegovernment's going to do.
We do not know what's going tohappen at work when you come out.
But right now are you safesitting here in my office, like,
(41:27):
and just getting people tolike, get really clear with like
right now?
And that when you feel safeinside, it's actually so much easier
to face potential dangers externally.
And trans people really dohave to face that on a regular basis.
So the more that we can feelsafe inside, it gives us the strength
to kind of face the world andnot get totally unmoored by it.
(41:52):
Thank you.
Yeah, you're welcome.
And that's a lot of my ownpersonal work.
Right.
Like, I, I, this is stuff thatI, I've had to do in my own self
and you know, then I can kindof share with clients and guide them.
Sure.
Well, and I think that too issuch a great, that's such a great
lesson for everyone.
It's so true.
(42:13):
Yeah.
And, and it's so humanizingand I think that is just so important.
So thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Tell me really quick, telleveryone really quick how they can
find you.
I will have all of yourcontact information in the show notes,
(42:33):
but I would love for you tosay it as well right now.
Okay.
Yeah, I'd love to.
The one thing I want to goback and say is this, this sort of
advice that I was talkingabout is I find that it, it is just
as important to hear thatbecause parents of trans kids get
really dysregulated, reallyafraid, really concerned and they
(42:54):
have a hard time not, notgetting flooded by everything that's
happening too.
So kind of the same thing forparents and family members.
So arrive therapy.
We are@arightherapy.com wehave social media, TikTok, Instagram.
We do have a YouTube.
We don't have many peoplefollow us on YouTube, but all the
same in person, I do videosregularly on, on how to parent, how
(43:15):
to support your trans kid,myths about gender affirming care,
just stuff, just stuff like that.
We do see folks in a varietyof states who are licensed in a variety
of states.
And so definitely if you'relooking for a therapist, I think
there's something reallybeautiful about having a trans therapist
in particular for trans teens.
Trans teens don't really havereal life models.
(43:36):
They don't have people intheir life.
Usually they can look at andthey can say, oh, that's what it's
like to be a trans adult.
And so kids feel, feel reallylike loss, like what does it mean
to grow up and be a trans person.
And so being able to sit witha trans therapist, you can kind of
go, yeah, like, I really getthat, you know, and I understand
your experience, but also,like, I can get you to the other
(44:00):
side.
Like, I've gotten to the other side.
You can do anything you wantto do with your life.
And I can say that because I'mdoing it right?
And so, you know, it.
It.
When I say to them, oh, youknow, it's important to accept who
you are, they're not lookingat me going like, you don't know
what I'm talking about, right?
It's like, so.
So we can kind of feel like,take the therapy to deeper places
(44:21):
because we have that shared experience.
Right?
So, anyway, long winded way ofsaying arrivetherapy.com we have
11 therapists, everybody's LGBTQ.
Many of us are trans and nonbinary, and we'd love to support
anyone who needs.
Just look over there.
Happy.
Love it.
Thank you.
Thank you, Alexander.
Such a pleasure to have you on today.
(44:43):
Yeah, thank you so much.
I really, really appreciate it.
You're very welcome.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com