In this powerful and moving conversation, Heather sits down with Josh Nadler and Sam Wasserman, the creative minds behind the new web series What About Me?—a show that fearlessly explores the messy, raw, and very human experience of grief. Born out of Josh’s personal journey after the loss of his brother, this project weaves together grief, queer family dynamics, humor, and the unvarnished truth of what it means to keep going when the world feels upside down.
Josh and Sam share how they turned their shared grief into a creative endeavor, what it was like to work together as life partners, and why they chose to release their show on YouTube—making it accessible to everyone who might need it most. They also open up about the surprising intersections between queerness and grief, the role of humor as a healing balm, and how they hope their work will spark conversations and connection in a world that often turns away from the hard stuff.
Key Topics Covered:
- The origin story of What About Me? and how it honors Josh’s late brother
- How grief can shape and transform creative work
- The messy reality of family dynamics, especially for queer people
- The importance of humor and laughter, even in moments of profound loss
- Why queer visibility and authentic storytelling matter now more than ever
- Choosing independent distribution to reach people who need it
- How healing and community can bloom in unexpected ways
Notable Quotes:
- “Mourning comes from a place of love—ultimately, it’s a reflection of what was beautiful and meaningful.” – Josh
- “Being gay isn’t the most interesting thing about someone. Grief, family, love—they’re all part of the bigger story.” – Josh
- “This was never just about a show—it was about healing, about sharing, about turning something so personal into something universal.” – Sam
Where to Watch the Series:
What About Me? premieres May 30, 2025, on YouTube. Watch all six episodes and learn more at wamtheseries.com. Follow them on Instagram and TikTok @wamtheseries.
Connect with Josh and Sam:
👉 Instagram: @wamtheseries
👉 TikTok: @wamtheseries
👉 Website: wamtheseries.com
Support Queer Independent Art:
As Josh and Sam so beautifully shared, supporting queer independent art means creating space for real, messy, and vital stories to be told. If you’re moved by this episode, consider sharing their work, donating to support indie artists, or simply starting a conversation about the power of grief and healing.
Hi, I’m Heather Hester, and I’m so glad you’re here!
Receive a free excerpt and reflection guide from Heather's book, Parenting with Pride.
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Today's episode is NavigatingGrief and Identity, a conversation
with Josh Nagler and SamWasserman of what About Me.
Welcome to More Human, MoreKind, the podcast helping parents
of LGBTQ kids move from fearto fierce allyship and feel less
(00:21):
alone and more informed so youcan protect what matters, raise brave
kids, and spark collective change.
I'm Heather Hester.
Sure.
Let's get started.
In this episode, you will gaininsight into the intersection of
(00:42):
grief and queer identity,challenging the common narrative
that being gay is the quote,unquote, most interesting part of
someone's story.
You will also feel the powerof raw, messy and real storytelling
through Josh and Sam's candid experiences.
You are going to be remindedthat healing to doesn't look like
(01:03):
a Hollywood ending.
And you will discover howhumor and darkness can coexist.
Without further ado, here aremy guests, Josh Nagler and Sam Wasserman.
Josh and Sam, I am sodelighted to have you on the show
today to talk about your brandnew show that is coming out very,
(01:27):
very soon.
But before we get into thatand all of the the lovely things
about that, I'd love to tolearn a little bit more about each
of you.
So I'll let you decide whowants to go first, but just a little
bit about your background andhow you got from there to here.
Today you want to start?
(01:48):
Sure.
Well, first of all, thank youso much for chatting with us.
We're really excited andexcited for you, for us, and really
just helpful to connect withothers, especially about a topic
such as grief.
But a little bit about me.
I'm originally from Las Vegas.
(02:09):
I've been in Los angeles forabout 10 years now doing the acting
writing thing during thepandemic, decided to kind of pivot
and expand as a creative andcreated the series and am now diving
into the world of producing.
I've always been a creative atheart and I am thankful that my life
(02:33):
partner has turned into mycreative partner as well.
Yeah, I mean, that's a greatsegue also to echo.
Josh, thank you so much forhaving us.
We're very excited to chat.
Similarly, I've been out inLos Angeles for a bit over 10 years
from Chicago.
Unlike Josta, where he hasbeen a creative, I've been on the
(02:59):
brand and business side, butalways cheering Josh on from the
get go, from the moment theidea was conceived, all throughout
execution.
And then I got very lucky whenit was actually time to bring it
to life that I was able topartner up not just as a partner,
but creatively and now we havea finished series, which is crazy
(03:21):
to think about.
Holy cow.
I'd like to just take a momentand sit with that because that's
pretty awesome.
And I don't think that peoplerealize how much work and love and
tears and all of the things gointo that.
All the things.
(03:42):
It's been how many years?
Oh, years.
Decades.
Lifetimes.
I guess technically now it'sbeen about five years.
As we've both said.
Said we.
We've been fortunate enough totackle this together and grow and
learn together.
I think we've both realizedthat we are capable of so much more
(04:03):
than maybe we initiallythought, both as individuals, but
also as a couple.
I think navigating anyworkplace with a significant other
can be tricky.
So I'm very proud that wenavigated that as well and really
had each other as a crutchthroughout this entire process.
(04:24):
Sam has always been my biggestcheerleader, aside from my Jewish
mother.
But having him.
Yeah.
Be at the very beginning whenthis was conceived on a gym floor
all the way into release hasbeen really special.
And I'm really grateful for that.
For the finished product,sure, but for the entire journey.
(04:47):
Getting to spend it with Samhas been really, really impactful.
Absolutely.
Well, I'm sure that's addedlayers to this that you would not
have normally had, right?
Completely.
I mean, I'd say what's beenreally nice about this project is
we've really done it all ourselves.
(05:08):
I mean, mostly Josh, but I'llthrow myself in there too.
But from the idea to writingit, to actually going into pre production
and then filming, and now weare self releasing by choice and
are able to actually putmarketing behind it and see our vision
(05:29):
all the way through, which isreally special, especially in this
current Hollywood landscape,to actually get what you wanted out
there.
Out there.
Yeah, I.
You know, just to echo off ofthat, I'm not as big into the zodiac
as many other Angelenos, but Ido think, like the most Taurus thing
(05:51):
about me is just how maybedetermined and stubborn I can be.
And I really just really wasdetermined to just see this all the
way through my own terms.
I think this industry can bevery guarded and there's gates that
you got to get through.
(06:12):
And I really just wanted to doit for myself because this project
was inspired by my brother andmy brother was also a huge cheerleader
of me, so really felt likethere was no other way to do this
but to do it ourselves.
Well, I think that's a goodsegue too, into how.
(06:32):
How did this Project come.
You know, where did it come from?
Where did it originate the idea?
Yeah, so it was immediatelyinspired by the loss of.
Of my brother Brett in 2018.
And I think the idea ingeneral started from some comments
that people were making at the funeral.
(06:53):
I got a lot of, oh, it's likelooking at a ghost, or, you know,
oh, you.
You look just like him.
And I would eventually look atmyself in the mirror, and my own
features were his, and it waslike an absolute mind.
A mind f.
(07:13):
So, you know, in that, I kindof got to thinking, what must it
be like to be in someone'sshadow and mourn?
And then it kind of justexpanded from there.
You know, I.
I think the overall, like, logline was kind of etched out and stretched
out on a gym floor between Samand I.
(07:34):
And, you know, I was inspiredby, yeah, Heath Ledger.
When he passed away, his.
His brother actually filled infor him on some reshoots for a movie
that he was working on, andall of these ideas kind of turned
into what this project, youknow, eventually became.
Amazing.
(07:55):
Amazing.
It is quite extraordinary.
I still, like, I can hear yousay, what about me?
I mean, nailed that.
I lost my sister a year agoand really connected with a lot of
this.
I actually just did a hugeepisode on grief.
So, like, the timing is soperfect as I completely.
(08:17):
I can empathize with you and alot of these feelings and a lot of
things that people say to youthat you're like, can you hear yourself
right now?
Right.
Did you check that before itcame out of your mouth?
I think, you know, one of themore interesting things that people
said to me over and over is Idon't understand why you're so angry.
(08:40):
You don't understand whatparts that don't you understand?
Like, it's my sister who, youknow, you get it.
All the things.
But I think it is fascinatingthe things that people say, but then
also kind of to what youwalked through in this, or at least
the pieces that I've seen sofar, is that how we deal with grief
(09:04):
is likely quite different thanwe think we would deal with grief.
Right.
Like, I think that your wholeeulogy is something that so many
people will connect withbecause it was just.
It was so raw and real.
Yeah.
And it's true.
(09:24):
You know, grief is sopersonal, and then it's also so individual.
And also one thing that youend up struggling with, at least
in my own experience, is thateveryone's idea of who that person
was is completely differentbased off of your relationship.
Right.
So you're like, okay, am Imisremembering that?
(09:48):
Are you misremembering that?
Who has the say in thisperson's legacy?
And I think that was alsoreally interesting and what I hope
to explore down the line further.
Yeah.
And one thing that you alwayssaid throughout this process, and
I'm sure you understand thisas well, is typically when it comes
to grief, people think, youknow, parents or grandparents, rarely
(10:11):
do they think sibling.
And also, it's typically yoursibling that you are kind of checking
in on those stories with tomake sure that you're aligned.
So when you lose the oneperson that you're like, you were
there, you get it, then itbecomes even more confusing because
a mother's relationship isgoing to be very different than a
brother's relationship, andyou kind of lose that connection.
(10:37):
Oh, my gosh.
That so well said.
So, so well said.
That was one of the thingsthat I just recently, you know, in
this past six months, I waslike, oh, that is exactly what happened.
She was my person.
Like, she's the only otherperson who grew up with me that could
be like, oh, yeah, yeah.
And I asked why, right?
(10:58):
Because Josh and I, we had ourfirst date two months after his brother
passed.
So I never knew his brother.
I only know him through stories.
But, you know, the stories Ihear from him versus the stories
I hear from his mom versus thestories I hear from his sister, I'm
like, are we talking about thesame person?
Like, they are all a differentversion of the same person, which
(11:19):
I find so interesting, but so human.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, this is a topic thatyou could have.
This could just be season one completely.
I mean, there's so much therethat you could build from that.
You're just beginning to kindof scratch the surface and get people,
(11:43):
you know, reeled into it, which.
And I think there's such aneed to have discussions like this.
Like, grief is one of thosethings somebody had said to me a
long time ago.
You know, I think thatAmericans, especially specifically,
are grief phobic.
And I was like, that's such aninteresting way of saying that, because
(12:04):
it's kind of true.
And so, you know, addressingit and kind of bringing out the way
you are doing in this show islike, hey, let's talk about it.
Like, this is something that every.
It's a human emotion.
Like, let's not be afraid of it.
Let's talk about it, and let'sbe real about it.
Like, it's so many different, pretty.
(12:27):
Yeah, it's a thousanddifferent things can look so much
more than just someone dying.
I mean, grief can be losing a job.
It can be losing youridentity, losing so much.
And that is very human andsomething that we can all, at least.
Totally, Totally, totally.
(12:52):
Why now?
Why are you putting this outinto the world at this moment in
time?
I feel like just a bevy of reasons.
Initially, it was really justa way for me to navigate and heal,
and then it became more urgentbecause I was kind of trying to.
(13:15):
I.
I don't know about you, butwhen my brother died, I became obsessed
with, like, sad songs, sadmovies, like, I wanted to feel it.
Yeah.
And I.
You know, I.
I noticed what I was watchingdidn't necessarily pertain to me
or didn't feel as maybe universal.
(13:35):
It was about a parent or justabout something else entirely.
And, you know, at the time, Ireally didn't find anything about
grieving a sibling or grievingsomeone in that capacity.
And that felt just important.
It felt important to addressthat kind of lack and try to help
(13:57):
others.
I think, all in all, justgoing back to grieving in so many
different ways.
The world is not a primarily,maybe compassionate place at the
moment.
And, you know, we are allexperiencing a lot of different losses,
and there are glimmers in it.
(14:18):
There is hope in that.
And, you know, I think alsoHollywood loves to say, like, okay,
the world's on fire right now.
We need happy things.
We need to celebrate.
We need to do that.
But I.
That's also not how we ashumans work.
We can't just turn somethingoff and choose to, you know, be consumed
(14:39):
by something else.
We're gonna just navigate iton our own.
Right.
It was important for me tojust be real, trust what I thought,
you know, trust what I was feeling.
Yeah.
I mean, it's also the reasonwe have decided to put it all out
on YouTube.
That versus going throughtraditional distribution.
(15:01):
Because, you know, also withthe change in entertainment, we've
seen a lot of these streamersalmost gatekeep content by asking
you to pay for it.
And there are so many peoplewho are grieving who might not have
a subscription to this veryobscure streamer.
And we're like, how can wereach the most people where they
are when they need it?
(15:22):
Not when, you know, they'resitting on the couch after 30 minutes
just going through Netflix.
But when they're like, if theyYouTube grief and they see it, maybe
it'll reach the right peopleat the right time.
Absolutely.
Well, and I think that YouTubeis now the biggest search engine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that doesn't hurt either.
(15:44):
It does not.
It was quite smart on yourpart to do that.
And I think, you know, it's.
It's really rather brilliantin so many ways.
But something else that youhad just said was the whole Hollywood
angle about, you know,Hollywood does like to slap a happy.
You know, a happy ending.
Everything has a happy ending.
Everything is buttoned up andneat and 90 minutes, right.
(16:07):
And that's not life.
And so I like that that's theway you have approached this, because
it feels messy.
Like, there were a lot ofthose moments where it was like the
secondhand embarrassment, likethat feeling, you know, where you're
just like, you're all in it.
And I was like, oh, I can sofeel this right now.
Right.
(16:28):
So that's such a good thing.
Right.
Really identified with that.
They're.
They've been there.
And so I just think allaround, what a really well thought
out, well executed.
(16:48):
And I can't wait to see thewhole thing.
So I just.
Yeah.
Bravo.
Oh, man.
Well, I.
Again, I'm just so fortunate.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
To see something that was justin my brain.
But I have, you know, anentire community who helped crowdfund
(17:09):
who was the creative teambehind this, and my actors, and I
can hardly take a big bulk ofthe cr.
You can take a lot.
Yes, you go ahead and take a lot.
One of the things that Inoticed was that, you know, here
(17:30):
we are talking about this, thesubject of grief, which is, at its
core, sad.
Right.
We can all feel it.
When you say the word grief,you can feel it.
But you did a really lovelyjob of weaving in comedy and kind
of offbeat.
I mean, my gosh, I wascracking up with the app.
(17:52):
I was like, oh, dear God.
Turn it off.
Having a gay son.
I was like, oh, yes.
I mean, just like, gigglingand it was just the.
The timing was really, really good.
And I'm wondering, was thatlike, that for you from the beginning?
(18:15):
Did you know?
Oh, I.
I need to weave in.
So it's not always sad, or didthat kind of come to you, like, oh,
we need a little comic relief here?
I think I've always been drawnto that balance.
It's something that has bondedmy siblings and I.
We've always had that kind ofsardonic kind of outlook on life.
(18:37):
And, you know, those arecomedians that I'm drawn to, that
darkness that helps us see the light.
And I, you know, I.
There's like, one specificexample that I feel like might have
subconsciously played into theWhole script.
I.
My brother had just passedaway, and I went home to Vegas for
(18:58):
the services.
And I remember there was onemoment where I just, like, had a
huge breakdown in the shower.
I carried that breakdown intohis closet and was just having, like,
a dramatic meltdown moment andmade enough noise to have my mom
and sister barge into the roomand then immediately console me and
(19:23):
hug me.
And without skipping a beat,my sister made some comment about
how hot my body was.
And then we all just laugh,and it was like a crying, snotty,
sad, happy, weird mess.
And I look back on it now andgo, yes.
Like, that is.
That is life.
(19:43):
That is what we all navigatethrough on our own with our family.
So all in all, I.
You know, it's always been myway of life, and it's how I'll continue
to produce, work, and just live.
Yeah, completely.
I mean, Josh is truly one ofthe silliest people I know.
(20:08):
And.
Yeah, I mean, from thebeginning, no matter how he was feeling,
he was still.
I think it was that sillinessthat helped him move forward and
then putting it into the project.
I mean, there's been such adifference between the Josh before
he started writing this andthe Josh after, just in terms of,
(20:28):
like, his outlook on the worldand his healing journey.
And I think a lot of thatcomes down to the ability to laugh
and cry simultaneously.
Absolutely.
Well, to hold.
Right.
It's like holding the tensionof the opposites.
Yes.
And you do you have a very,like, tangible tenderness to you
(20:49):
at the same time.
I can feel the edges.
I can feel the.
The sarcasm.
I mean, it identify with a lotas well.
I mean, that's role here inthis household.
I love that.
We love that.
Yeah.
And a lot of dark, veryinappropriate humor.
I mean, not exactly totally.
(21:14):
I can imagine this process foryou has been incredibly cathartic.
Yeah.
Every step of the way has.
Has brought up different emotions.
I.
I'm pretty hard on myself, andthere have not been many moments
(21:35):
in my life where I felt trulyproud of myself.
Mom or Sam or other people cangive me that validation, but there
are not a ton of times where.
Where I feel that.
And it seems as if they've allbeen throughout this project.
And that's not coming from aplace of, you know, I did it.
(21:57):
I just.
I felt proud because I feltthe ripple effect.
I.
From a very young age, I'vejust always been a storyteller, and
getting able to tell a storythat is useful to the greater good,
(22:19):
it means everything to me.
Yeah, I was really fortunate Igot to be there.
When his mom and sisterwatched it for the first time.
It was the four of us on the couch.
And as an outsider, I saw thatit was not just cathartic and healing
for Josh, but for his entire family.
It really was almost like amoment of celebration and recognition
(22:45):
and recognizing that the nextchapter of their lives is starting.
And it doesn't mean you haveto forget this last chapter, but
it's just time for the next one.
And to be part of that wasreally nice.
I heard it was really lovelyto kind of sit there and just hold
(23:06):
that.
Yeah, yeah.
I think this whole project,you know, my family thinks it's all
about them.
Which, if you watch the show,that would make sense as well.
That was then.
I wouldn't want it to be about right.
I don't think lots ofexperiences that we've been through
(23:26):
have inspired the story.
I think that is the mostspecial experience that I've maybe
ever had is getting to sharethis with my family.
And aside from that firstinitial screening with them, we held
a screening with our cast andcrew and they also drove in for that.
(23:48):
And watching them watch otherpeople watch, it was a very out of
body experience as well,because they were touched how other
people were touched.
And then that touched me.
And it felt after.
That ripple of our family canfrustrate us.
(24:10):
They can annoy us, they candrive us crazy.
They can also make us happyand give us purpose and reason and,
you know, as complicated asthings are for my family, as they
are with many other people inthis world, having moments where
(24:32):
you can all get together.
It'S really nice.
It's really nice.
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It is.
That was very well said.
You really threw me with thefamily bit, because that is, I think,
I'm sure the family bit is a.
It's a piece of everyone'sstory in one way or another.
And the way that you wove theideas, the truths, the tensions of
(25:00):
queer family dynamics intothis story, I thought was really
meaningful.
It was really.
It was real.
This is kind of an aside, butwhen my son first came out seven,
eight years ago, he was 16.
And there was a lot of stuffthat surrounded it.
(25:22):
But around the same time, thatmovie Love Simon came out.
And so we went to see it andwe were in a really rough spot with
him.
Like, he was really, reallystruggling and going through some
stuff, a lot of stuff.
And I remember sitting throughthat movie being like, this is not
real.
This is not how this happened.
But in my house, we should goget on Grindr together.
(25:46):
I literally was like, thinkthrough me.
But I watched this thinking,now, this is, like, real stuff.
This is messy.
And I think it's more oftenthan not messy in some way.
Right.
Like, just real and, like, saythe wrong thing, somebody says the
(26:10):
wrong thing, or you sayexactly what you're thinking.
Weird.
And maybe not the right thingto say.
Right.
I think you just nailed that,I guess, is what I'm saying.
So I'm going to quit talking,and I.
No, thank you.
Yeah, no, yeah, thank you.
Would love to hear yourthoughts on if there was, like, kind
of an.
An underlying reason why youwere like, I want to weave the idea
(26:33):
of grief with queer familydynamics, with humor, with all these
things.
Yeah.
What I.
I guess I kind of wanted tochallenge was this idea that being
gay is the most interestingthing about someone from.
From my perspective, a lot ofthe queer media that.
(26:54):
That I grew up with, thesestories revolved around family members
or friends who struggled toaccept the main character.
And that was the story.
That was the plot.
That was what it was, butwasn't my experience and wasn't what
I thought life was, you know?
And what about me?
Our main character, Josh, isgay and is left and accepted by his
(27:19):
family, but he's the only onethat kind of ponders if being gay
has negatively affected hislife to his family.
It's, like, sometimes acomment here and there, but, like,
who cares?
So I really wanted to showthat it's very fluid to be a queer
person and be a family memberof a queer person.
(27:41):
You know, sometimes we get itright, sometimes we get it wrong.
We say the right thing, we saythe wrong thing.
And that comes from both endsof the spectrum.
Me as the queer person and myfamily as the family of.
That was important to me.
Yeah.
And also, I think, you know,especially for queer kids, they're
always told that it getsbetter, and I think it's important
(28:04):
to be, like, it does getbetter, but that doesn't mean it's
always going to be great.
And it's okay to, like, begreat and confident in yourself in
one part of your life and thenhave to deal with grief or hardship
in another part of your life,you know?
So just that story of, like,yeah, Josh, his family loves him,
(28:24):
but now they are dealing withsomething really hard.
So, like, it got better andnow it's bad again.
And that's just.
That's life.
Right, Right.
Well, too.
And I think the other pointthat you brought up, that is so important,
and it is something that Ithink most.
Most people coming out andmost families of people coming out
deal with in some respect isthat whole idea that being gay is
(28:48):
the entire identity.
Right.
And it's not.
And I remember saying that toConnor, like, that is a piece of
who you are.
Right.
So it's one of those.
I think that was also verywell done and that it was, like,
part of the story, which issuper cool because I think that representation
(29:09):
is so important.
But to your point, it's agreat example of a main character
who's gay and.
Yes.
Who's grieving and has afamily who's a mess and.
Right.
Like.
Like all these things that's,like, real.
Like, this is.
These are real family dynamics.
These are real things thatreal people go through.
(29:31):
Right.
And I mean, your mom with thechain smoking.
I literally was.
I'm dying right now.
Straight from real life.
Yeah.
Right.
That was the giveaway for my mom.
Yes.
I'm sure she was just crackingup because that was very, very, very,
(29:52):
very funny.
Oh, my goodness.
So talking about grief andvisibility, about how they are both
obviously two separate things,but they are very personal.
They're very found, andsometimes they come out sideways.
(30:14):
And so I'd love to hear youtalk about that a little bit and
how.
How you navigated that.
All right.
You know, I think.
I think there is a sense ofmourning when.
When someone comes out frommaybe the queer person's perspective,
(30:36):
mourning who you thought youwere supposed to be and for maybe
the parent, mourning who youwanted them to be.
And I think to be queer is to,in a way, mourn.
There's been historically, alot of strife, and so that I feel
(30:59):
like, is baked into our existence.
I came out when I was 14,which I know sounds like it was yesterday,
but it actually was decadesnow ago, and things were different.
It wasn't completely legal toget married, and HIV treatments and
(31:20):
research were nowhere nearwhat they are today.
And we now live in an erawhere kids are figuring out who they
are because of how big ourbubble has become.
And I think that is amazing.
(31:41):
It's taken you on a journey.
But I do think things havegotten easier in some ways for kids.
I think it's also okay for achild who comes out or a parent to
mourn, just in the same waythat it's okay to mourn when you
lose someone, because it is abig change.
And you do have to go througha period of recognizing what that
(32:04):
change means for what yourlife will now look like.
And I think there's sometimesa Worry that, like, oh, if I am mourning
this, that means I'm not happyabout it or that I'm questioning
it, or I'm sad about it.
But sometimes you're justmourning and you're just figuring
out the next phase, and that's okay.
And isn't mourning from aplace of remembering the love?
(32:31):
Ultimately, mourning comesfrom a place of light, of positivity,
of reflecting on somethingthat was better.
Yes.
I think queer people innatelyhave that.
Yeah.
And I'm grateful that wesubconsciously or consciously got
(32:53):
to display those parallels ina way.
Yeah.
I mean, obviously it's adifferent spelling, but, you know,
morning always comes after aperiod of night and darkness.
But morning itself is not the darkness.
It is what's bringing youinto, you know, the day.
I think it's important thatpeople remember.
(33:14):
And that is the quote.
Here we have it.
Okay, I want to put that on aT shirt and sell it.
You might have like a new tagline.
I mean, explore it.
Yeah, we did.
(33:35):
This is.
Wow.
So the title was originallycalled Good Grief, but.
And then Dan Levy eventuallyreleased a Netflix movie with this
title.
I will say when I first wrotethe first draft of the script, there
was no other project calledGood Grief.
(33:56):
There's now if you go on IMDb,probably like 37.
I really thought I wasoriginal, but my first backup name
was Good Morning.
And then.
You know, you, you heard it,you know, so good.
(34:16):
I think third time's a charm.
You got it.
Great.
Perfect.
Oh, good.
I will say, though, I thinkyou have to use that.
Yeah, right.
Or.
Some kind of merch.
I love it.
Well, and I, you know, it'sfunny because that was one of the
first things I, I didn'trealize I was kind of figuring this
out.
But I remember first sittingin my son's like, high school counselor's
(34:41):
office and I was having a fullon meltdown because I was so worried
about him.
He wasn't going to school.
Like, we were having the wholeschool refusal thing.
It was, it was a hot mess.
And I was just like, oh, itwas with him, this whole thing.
And I was like, it is justlike my entire movie reel has exploded.
And he was laughing.
Well, I think you might havesomething there.
(35:03):
And I was like, I think Imight like my biggest fan.
Like, this is what happens.
Listen, parents, it's okay.
Like when your child comesout, it's totally fine.
Like, they need to be upsetbecause their.
Everything's turned upsidedown for them.
Like encourage them to mournand you mourn like Be sad.
Like, let go of.
(35:23):
Because then you get to, like,enjoy all the cool stuff on the other
side.
Yeah, completely good.
Let that move.
Exactly.
It's all good.
So funny, the crazy things wecome up with.
Right?
So, okay, so let's talk aboutall the ways that people can.
(35:46):
Can find you, obviously.
When is this official?
Like, officially out into the world?
Officially out on May 30,which is Friday, May 30, 2025.
All six episodes are gonna bedropped at once.
So you'll be able to hopefullybinge it all and then fingers crossed
(36:11):
for, you know, more to come.
And you can find us on YouTube.
Wham.
The series.
That's where it will be.
We're on Instagram @WhamTheSeries.
We are on TikTok at Wham.
The series.
Or you can go to the website,which is whamtheseries.com Excellent.
(36:35):
I love it when things worktogether like that.
I mean.
And that's Wham W a m.
Yes.
Or what about me?
As opposed to the band?
As opposed to the band.
Yeah.
So no, check the URLs there.
Yes.
They're dead.
But if the band gets us moreviews, then we can stay for the band,
(36:59):
you know, come for the band.
Stay for the Grease.
Exactly.
There we go.
Another that's on the back of this.
This far.
Right.
I think it's going to have to be.
Oh, my gosh.
Okay.
This has been such a delight.
Is there anything you wouldlike to leave.
(37:19):
Leave with one final thought.
Support queer art.
That's it.
Yeah.
Queer and queer.
Independent art.
Independent.
Because it's hard to make things.
It's expensive to make things.
And yeah.
So just throw your money atany queer person.
(37:41):
You know, just give them allyour cows.
I love it.
Well, that's where we'releaving it today.
It has been such a delight to have.
Thank you.
What a beautiful invitationfrom Josh and Sam of what About Me.
Into their journey of creatinga project born from profound grief,
(38:03):
grief that is both universaland intimate.
They revealed how grief can bea catalyst for connection, healing,
and deeper understanding offamily dynamics, queer or otherwise.
Together, they showed us thatmorning is not darkness.
It is the first light of dawn,a testament to the love we carry.
(38:26):
Their conversation is abeautiful reminder that art doesn't
just reflect life.
It can help us live it morefully, more honestly, and with more
compassion for ourselves and others.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Make sure to catch newepisodes of More Human More Kind
every Tuesday and Friday.
(38:47):
Finally, if you've ever beencurious about what kind of ally you
are.
Take my new quiz to find out.
Just click on the link in theshow notes until next time.
Remember you are not alone.
(39:07):
Sa.
Today's episode is NavigatingGrief and Identity, a conversation
with Josh Nagler and SamWasserman of what About Me.
Welcome to More Human, MoreKind, the podcast helping parents
of LGBTQ kids move from fearto fierce allyship and feel less
(00:21):
alone and more informed so youcan protect what matters, raise brave
kids, and spark collective change.
I'm Heather Hester.
Sure.
Let's get started.
In this episode, you will gaininsight into the intersection of
(00:42):
grief and queer identity,challenging the common narrative
that being gay is the quote,unquote, most interesting part of
someone's story.
You will also feel the powerof raw, messy and real storytelling
through Josh and Sam's candid experiences.
You are going to be remindedthat healing to doesn't look like
(01:03):
a Hollywood ending.
And you will discover howhumor and darkness can coexist.
Without further ado, here aremy guests, Josh Nagler and Sam Wasserman.
Josh and Sam, I am sodelighted to have you on the show
today to talk about your brandnew show that is coming out very,
(01:27):
very soon.
But before we get into thatand all of the the lovely things
about that, I'd love to tolearn a little bit more about each
of you.
So I'll let you decide whowants to go first, but just a little
bit about your background andhow you got from there to here.
Today you want to start?
(01:48):
Sure.
Well, first of all, thank youso much for chatting with us.
We're really excited andexcited for you, for us, and really
just helpful to connect withothers, especially about a topic
such as grief.
But a little bit about me.
I'm originally from Las Vegas.
(02:09):
I've been in Los angeles forabout 10 years now doing the acting
writing thing during thepandemic, decided to kind of pivot
and expand as a creative andcreated the series and am now diving
into the world of producing.
I've always been a creative atheart and I am thankful that my life
(02:33):
partner has turned into mycreative partner as well.
Yeah, I mean, that's a greatsegue also to echo.
Josh, thank you so much forhaving us.
We're very excited to chat.
Similarly, I've been out inLos Angeles for a bit over 10 years
from Chicago.
Unlike Josta, where he hasbeen a creative, I've been on the
(02:59):
brand and business side, butalways cheering Josh on from the
get go, from the moment theidea was conceived, all throughout
execution.
And then I got very lucky whenit was actually time to bring it
to life that I was able topartner up not just as a partner,
but creatively and now we havea finished series, which is crazy
(03:21):
to think about.
Holy cow.
I'd like to just take a momentand sit with that because that's
pretty awesome.
And I don't think that peoplerealize how much work and love and
tears and all of the things gointo that.
All the things.
(03:42):
It's been how many years?
Oh, years.
Decades.
Lifetimes.
I guess technically now it'sbeen about five years.
As we've both said.
Said we.
We've been fortunate enough totackle this together and grow and
learn together.
I think we've both realizedthat we are capable of so much more
(04:03):
than maybe we initiallythought, both as individuals, but
also as a couple.
I think navigating anyworkplace with a significant other
can be tricky.
So I'm very proud that wenavigated that as well and really
had each other as a crutchthroughout this entire process.
(04:24):
Sam has always been my biggestcheerleader, aside from my Jewish
mother.
But having him.
Yeah.
Be at the very beginning whenthis was conceived on a gym floor
all the way into release hasbeen really special.
And I'm really grateful for that.
For the finished product,sure, but for the entire journey.
(04:47):
Getting to spend it with Samhas been really, really impactful.
Absolutely.
Well, I'm sure that's addedlayers to this that you would not
have normally had, right?
Completely.
I mean, I'd say what's beenreally nice about this project is
we've really done it all ourselves.
(05:08):
I mean, mostly Josh, but I'llthrow myself in there too.
But from the idea to writingit, to actually going into pre production
and then filming, and now weare self releasing by choice and
are able to actually putmarketing behind it and see our vision
(05:29):
all the way through, which isreally special, especially in this
current Hollywood landscape,to actually get what you wanted out
there.
Out there.
Yeah, I.
You know, just to echo off ofthat, I'm not as big into the zodiac
as many other Angelenos, but Ido think, like the most Taurus thing
(05:51):
about me is just how maybedetermined and stubborn I can be.
And I really just really wasdetermined to just see this all the
way through my own terms.
I think this industry can bevery guarded and there's gates that
you got to get through.
(06:12):
And I really just wanted to doit for myself because this project
was inspired by my brother andmy brother was also a huge cheerleader
of me, so really felt likethere was no other way to do this
but to do it ourselves.
Well, I think that's a goodsegue too, into how.
(06:32):
How did this Project come.
You know, where did it come from?
Where did it originate the idea?
Yeah, so it was immediatelyinspired by the loss of.
Of my brother Brett in 2018.
And I think the idea ingeneral started from some comments
that people were making at the funeral.
(06:53):
I got a lot of, oh, it's likelooking at a ghost, or, you know,
oh, you.
You look just like him.
And I would eventually look atmyself in the mirror, and my own
features were his, and it waslike an absolute mind.
A mind f.
(07:13):
So, you know, in that, I kindof got to thinking, what must it
be like to be in someone'sshadow and mourn?
And then it kind of justexpanded from there.
You know, I.
I think the overall, like, logline was kind of etched out and stretched
out on a gym floor between Samand I.
(07:34):
And, you know, I was inspiredby, yeah, Heath Ledger.
When he passed away, his.
His brother actually filled infor him on some reshoots for a movie
that he was working on, andall of these ideas kind of turned
into what this project, youknow, eventually became.
Amazing.
(07:55):
Amazing.
It is quite extraordinary.
I still, like, I can hear yousay, what about me?
I mean, nailed that.
I lost my sister a year agoand really connected with a lot of
this.
I actually just did a hugeepisode on grief.
So, like, the timing is soperfect as I completely.
(08:17):
I can empathize with you and alot of these feelings and a lot of
things that people say to youthat you're like, can you hear yourself
right now?
Right.
Did you check that before itcame out of your mouth?
I think, you know, one of themore interesting things that people
said to me over and over is Idon't understand why you're so angry.
(08:40):
You don't understand whatparts that don't you understand?
Like, it's my sister who, youknow, you get it.
All the things.
But I think it is fascinatingthe things that people say, but then
also kind of to what youwalked through in this, or at least
the pieces that I've seen sofar, is that how we deal with grief
(09:04):
is likely quite different thanwe think we would deal with grief.
Right.
Like, I think that your wholeeulogy is something that so many
people will connect withbecause it was just.
It was so raw and real.
Yeah.
And it's true.
(09:24):
You know, grief is sopersonal, and then it's also so individual.
And also one thing that youend up struggling with, at least
in my own experience, is thateveryone's idea of who that person
was is completely differentbased off of your relationship.
Right.
So you're like, okay, am Imisremembering that?
(09:48):
Are you misremembering that?
Who has the say in thisperson's legacy?
And I think that was alsoreally interesting and what I hope
to explore down the line further.
Yeah.
And one thing that you alwayssaid throughout this process, and
I'm sure you understand thisas well, is typically when it comes
to grief, people think, youknow, parents or grandparents, rarely
(10:11):
do they think sibling.
And also, it's typically yoursibling that you are kind of checking
in on those stories with tomake sure that you're aligned.
So when you lose the oneperson that you're like, you were
there, you get it, then itbecomes even more confusing because
a mother's relationship isgoing to be very different than a
brother's relationship, andyou kind of lose that connection.
(10:37):
Oh, my gosh.
That so well said.
So, so well said.
That was one of the thingsthat I just recently, you know, in
this past six months, I waslike, oh, that is exactly what happened.
She was my person.
Like, she's the only otherperson who grew up with me that could
be like, oh, yeah, yeah.
And I asked why, right?
(10:58):
Because Josh and I, we had ourfirst date two months after his brother
passed.
So I never knew his brother.
I only know him through stories.
But, you know, the stories Ihear from him versus the stories
I hear from his mom versus thestories I hear from his sister, I'm
like, are we talking about thesame person?
Like, they are all a differentversion of the same person, which
(11:19):
I find so interesting, but so human.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
I mean, this is a topic thatyou could have.
This could just be season one completely.
I mean, there's so much therethat you could build from that.
You're just beginning to kindof scratch the surface and get people,
(11:43):
you know, reeled into it, which.
And I think there's such aneed to have discussions like this.
Like, grief is one of thosethings somebody had said to me a
long time ago.
You know, I think thatAmericans, especially specifically,
are grief phobic.
And I was like, that's such aninteresting way of saying that, because
(12:04):
it's kind of true.
And so, you know, addressingit and kind of bringing out the way
you are doing in this show islike, hey, let's talk about it.
Like, this is something that every.
It's a human emotion.
Like, let's not be afraid of it.
Let's talk about it, and let'sbe real about it.
Like, it's so many different, pretty.
(12:27):
Yeah, it's a thousanddifferent things can look so much
more than just someone dying.
I mean, grief can be losing a job.
It can be losing youridentity, losing so much.
And that is very human andsomething that we can all, at least.
Totally, Totally, totally.
(12:52):
Why now?
Why are you putting this outinto the world at this moment in
time?
I feel like just a bevy of reasons.
Initially, it was really justa way for me to navigate and heal,
and then it became more urgentbecause I was kind of trying to.
(13:15):
I.
I don't know about you, butwhen my brother died, I became obsessed
with, like, sad songs, sadmovies, like, I wanted to feel it.
Yeah.
And I.
You know, I.
I noticed what I was watchingdidn't necessarily pertain to me
or didn't feel as maybe universal.
(13:35):
It was about a parent or justabout something else entirely.
And, you know, at the time, Ireally didn't find anything about
grieving a sibling or grievingsomeone in that capacity.
And that felt just important.
It felt important to addressthat kind of lack and try to help
(13:57):
others.
I think, all in all, justgoing back to grieving in so many
different ways.
The world is not a primarily,maybe compassionate place at the
moment.
And, you know, we are allexperiencing a lot of different losses,
and there are glimmers in it.
(14:18):
There is hope in that.
And, you know, I think alsoHollywood loves to say, like, okay,
the world's on fire right now.
We need happy things.
We need to celebrate.
We need to do that.
But I.
That's also not how we ashumans work.
We can't just turn somethingoff and choose to, you know, be consumed
(14:39):
by something else.
We're gonna just navigate iton our own.
Right.
It was important for me tojust be real, trust what I thought,
you know, trust what I was feeling.
Yeah.
I mean, it's also the reasonwe have decided to put it all out
on YouTube.
That versus going throughtraditional distribution.
(15:01):
Because, you know, also withthe change in entertainment, we've
seen a lot of these streamersalmost gatekeep content by asking
you to pay for it.
And there are so many peoplewho are grieving who might not have
a subscription to this veryobscure streamer.
And we're like, how can wereach the most people where they
are when they need it?
(15:22):
Not when, you know, they'resitting on the couch after 30 minutes
just going through Netflix.
But when they're like, if theyYouTube grief and they see it, maybe
it'll reach the right peopleat the right time.
Absolutely.
Well, and I think that YouTubeis now the biggest search engine.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So that doesn't hurt either.
(15:44):
It does not.
It was quite smart on yourpart to do that.
And I think, you know, it's.
It's really rather brilliantin so many ways.
But something else that youhad just said was the whole Hollywood
angle about, you know,Hollywood does like to slap a happy.
You know, a happy ending.
Everything has a happy ending.
Everything is buttoned up andneat and 90 minutes, right.
(16:07):
And that's not life.
And so I like that that's theway you have approached this, because
it feels messy.
Like, there were a lot ofthose moments where it was like the
secondhand embarrassment, likethat feeling, you know, where you're
just like, you're all in it.
And I was like, oh, I can sofeel this right now.
Right.
(16:28):
So that's such a good thing.
Right.
Really identified with that.
They're.
They've been there.
And so I just think allaround, what a really well thought
out, well executed.
(16:48):
And I can't wait to see thewhole thing.
So I just.
Yeah.
Bravo.
Oh, man.
Well, I.
Again, I'm just so fortunate.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
To see something that was justin my brain.
But I have, you know, anentire community who helped crowdfund
(17:09):
who was the creative teambehind this, and my actors, and I
can hardly take a big bulk ofthe cr.
You can take a lot.
Yes, you go ahead and take a lot.
One of the things that Inoticed was that, you know, here
(17:30):
we are talking about this, thesubject of grief, which is, at its
core, sad.
Right.
We can all feel it.
When you say the word grief,you can feel it.
But you did a really lovelyjob of weaving in comedy and kind
of offbeat.
I mean, my gosh, I wascracking up with the app.
(17:52):
I was like, oh, dear God.
Turn it off.
Having a gay son.
I was like, oh, yes.
I mean, just like, gigglingand it was just the.
The timing was really, really good.
And I'm wondering, was thatlike, that for you from the beginning?
(18:15):
Did you know?
Oh, I.
I need to weave in.
So it's not always sad, or didthat kind of come to you, like, oh,
we need a little comic relief here?
I think I've always been drawnto that balance.
It's something that has bondedmy siblings and I.
We've always had that kind ofsardonic kind of outlook on life.
(18:37):
And, you know, those arecomedians that I'm drawn to, that
darkness that helps us see the light.
And I, you know, I.
There's like, one specificexample that I feel like might have
subconsciously played into theWhole script.
I.
My brother had just passedaway, and I went home to Vegas for
(18:58):
the services.
And I remember there was onemoment where I just, like, had a
huge breakdown in the shower.
I carried that breakdown intohis closet and was just having, like,
a dramatic meltdown moment andmade enough noise to have my mom
and sister barge into the roomand then immediately console me and
(19:23):
hug me.
And without skipping a beat,my sister made some comment about
how hot my body was.
And then we all just laugh,and it was like a crying, snotty,
sad, happy, weird mess.
And I look back on it now andgo, yes.
Like, that is.
That is life.
(19:43):
That is what we all navigatethrough on our own with our family.
So all in all, I.
You know, it's always been myway of life, and it's how I'll continue
to produce, work, and just live.
Yeah, completely.
I mean, Josh is truly one ofthe silliest people I know.
(20:08):
And.
Yeah, I mean, from thebeginning, no matter how he was feeling,
he was still.
I think it was that sillinessthat helped him move forward and
then putting it into the project.
I mean, there's been such adifference between the Josh before
he started writing this andthe Josh after, just in terms of,
(20:28):
like, his outlook on the worldand his healing journey.
And I think a lot of thatcomes down to the ability to laugh
and cry simultaneously.
Absolutely.
Well, to hold.
Right.
It's like holding the tensionof the opposites.
Yes.
And you do you have a very,like, tangible tenderness to you
(20:49):
at the same time.
I can feel the edges.
I can feel the.
The sarcasm.
I mean, it identify with a lotas well.
I mean, that's role here inthis household.
I love that.
We love that.
Yeah.
And a lot of dark, veryinappropriate humor.
I mean, not exactly totally.
(21:14):
I can imagine this process foryou has been incredibly cathartic.
Yeah.
Every step of the way has.
Has brought up different emotions.
I.
I'm pretty hard on myself, andthere have not been many moments
(21:35):
in my life where I felt trulyproud of myself.
Mom or Sam or other people cangive me that validation, but there
are not a ton of times where.
Where I feel that.
And it seems as if they've allbeen throughout this project.
And that's not coming from aplace of, you know, I did it.
(21:57):
I just.
I felt proud because I feltthe ripple effect.
I.
From a very young age, I'vejust always been a storyteller, and
getting able to tell a storythat is useful to the greater good,
(22:19):
it means everything to me.
Yeah, I was really fortunate Igot to be there.
When his mom and sisterwatched it for the first time.
It was the four of us on the couch.
And as an outsider, I saw thatit was not just cathartic and healing
for Josh, but for his entire family.
It really was almost like amoment of celebration and recognition
(22:45):
and recognizing that the nextchapter of their lives is starting.
And it doesn't mean you haveto forget this last chapter, but
it's just time for the next one.
And to be part of that wasreally nice.
I heard it was really lovelyto kind of sit there and just hold
(23:06):
that.
Yeah, yeah.
I think this whole project,you know, my family thinks it's all
about them.
Which, if you watch the show,that would make sense as well.
That was then.
I wouldn't want it to be about right.
I don't think lots ofexperiences that we've been through
(23:26):
have inspired the story.
I think that is the mostspecial experience that I've maybe
ever had is getting to sharethis with my family.
And aside from that firstinitial screening with them, we held
a screening with our cast andcrew and they also drove in for that.
(23:48):
And watching them watch otherpeople watch, it was a very out of
body experience as well,because they were touched how other
people were touched.
And then that touched me.
And it felt after.
That ripple of our family canfrustrate us.
(24:10):
They can annoy us, they candrive us crazy.
They can also make us happyand give us purpose and reason and,
you know, as complicated asthings are for my family, as they
are with many other people inthis world, having moments where
(24:32):
you can all get together.
It'S really nice.
It's really nice.
Yeah, yeah, it is.
It is.
That was very well said.
You really threw me with thefamily bit, because that is, I think,
I'm sure the family bit is a.
It's a piece of everyone'sstory in one way or another.
And the way that you wove theideas, the truths, the tensions of
(25:00):
queer family dynamics intothis story, I thought was really
meaningful.
It was really.
It was real.
This is kind of an aside, butwhen my son first came out seven,
eight years ago, he was 16.
And there was a lot of stuffthat surrounded it.
(25:22):
But around the same time, thatmovie Love Simon came out.
And so we went to see it andwe were in a really rough spot with
him.
Like, he was really, reallystruggling and going through some
stuff, a lot of stuff.
And I remember sitting throughthat movie being like, this is not
real.
This is not how this happened.
But in my house, we should goget on Grindr together.
(25:46):
I literally was like, thinkthrough me.
But I watched this thinking,now, this is, like, real stuff.
This is messy.
And I think it's more oftenthan not messy in some way.
Right.
Like, just real and, like, saythe wrong thing, somebody says the
(26:10):
wrong thing, or you sayexactly what you're thinking.
Weird.
And maybe not the right thingto say.
Right.
I think you just nailed that,I guess, is what I'm saying.
So I'm going to quit talking,and I.
No, thank you.
Yeah, no, yeah, thank you.
Would love to hear yourthoughts on if there was, like, kind
of an.
An underlying reason why youwere like, I want to weave the idea
(26:33):
of grief with queer familydynamics, with humor, with all these
things.
Yeah.
What I.
I guess I kind of wanted tochallenge was this idea that being
gay is the most interestingthing about someone from.
From my perspective, a lot ofthe queer media that.
(26:54):
That I grew up with, thesestories revolved around family members
or friends who struggled toaccept the main character.
And that was the story.
That was the plot.
That was what it was, butwasn't my experience and wasn't what
I thought life was, you know?
And what about me?
Our main character, Josh, isgay and is left and accepted by his
(27:19):
family, but he's the only onethat kind of ponders if being gay
has negatively affected hislife to his family.
It's, like, sometimes acomment here and there, but, like,
who cares?
So I really wanted to showthat it's very fluid to be a queer
person and be a family memberof a queer person.
(27:41):
You know, sometimes we get itright, sometimes we get it wrong.
We say the right thing, we saythe wrong thing.
And that comes from both endsof the spectrum.
Me as the queer person and myfamily as the family of.
That was important to me.
Yeah.
And also, I think, you know,especially for queer kids, they're
always told that it getsbetter, and I think it's important
(28:04):
to be, like, it does getbetter, but that doesn't mean it's
always going to be great.
And it's okay to, like, begreat and confident in yourself in
one part of your life and thenhave to deal with grief or hardship
in another part of your life,you know?
So just that story of, like,yeah, Josh, his family loves him,
(28:24):
but now they are dealing withsomething really hard.
So, like, it got better andnow it's bad again.
And that's just.
That's life.
Right, Right.
Well, too.
And I think the other pointthat you brought up, that is so important,
and it is something that Ithink most.
Most people coming out andmost families of people coming out
deal with in some respect isthat whole idea that being gay is
(28:48):
the entire identity.
Right.
And it's not.
And I remember saying that toConnor, like, that is a piece of
who you are.
Right.
So it's one of those.
I think that was also verywell done and that it was, like,
part of the story, which issuper cool because I think that representation
(29:09):
is so important.
But to your point, it's agreat example of a main character
who's gay and.
Yes.
Who's grieving and has afamily who's a mess and.
Right.
Like.
Like all these things that's,like, real.
Like, this is.
These are real family dynamics.
These are real things thatreal people go through.
(29:31):
Right.
And I mean, your mom with thechain smoking.
I literally was.
I'm dying right now.
Straight from real life.
Yeah.
Right.
That was the giveaway for my mom.
Yes.
I'm sure she was just crackingup because that was very, very, very,
(29:52):
very funny.
Oh, my goodness.
So talking about grief andvisibility, about how they are both
obviously two separate things,but they are very personal.
They're very found, andsometimes they come out sideways.
(30:14):
And so I'd love to hear youtalk about that a little bit and
how.
How you navigated that.
All right.
You know, I think.
I think there is a sense ofmourning when.
When someone comes out frommaybe the queer person's perspective,
(30:36):
mourning who you thought youwere supposed to be and for maybe
the parent, mourning who youwanted them to be.
And I think to be queer is to,in a way, mourn.
There's been historically, alot of strife, and so that I feel
(30:59):
like, is baked into our existence.
I came out when I was 14,which I know sounds like it was yesterday,
but it actually was decadesnow ago, and things were different.
It wasn't completely legal toget married, and HIV treatments and
(31:20):
research were nowhere nearwhat they are today.
And we now live in an erawhere kids are figuring out who they
are because of how big ourbubble has become.
And I think that is amazing.
(31:41):
It's taken you on a journey.
But I do think things havegotten easier in some ways for kids.
I think it's also okay for achild who comes out or a parent to
mourn, just in the same waythat it's okay to mourn when you
lose someone, because it is abig change.
And you do have to go througha period of recognizing what that
(32:04):
change means for what yourlife will now look like.
And I think there's sometimesa Worry that, like, oh, if I am mourning
this, that means I'm not happyabout it or that I'm questioning
it, or I'm sad about it.
But sometimes you're justmourning and you're just figuring
out the next phase, and that's okay.
And isn't mourning from aplace of remembering the love?
(32:31):
Ultimately, mourning comesfrom a place of light, of positivity,
of reflecting on somethingthat was better.
Yes.
I think queer people innatelyhave that.
Yeah.
And I'm grateful that wesubconsciously or consciously got
(32:53):
to display those parallels ina way.
Yeah.
I mean, obviously it's adifferent spelling, but, you know,
morning always comes after aperiod of night and darkness.
But morning itself is not the darkness.
It is what's bringing youinto, you know, the day.
I think it's important thatpeople remember.
(33:14):
And that is the quote.
Here we have it.
Okay, I want to put that on aT shirt and sell it.
You might have like a new tagline.
I mean, explore it.
Yeah, we did.
(33:35):
This is.
Wow.
So the title was originallycalled Good Grief, but.
And then Dan Levy eventuallyreleased a Netflix movie with this
title.
I will say when I first wrotethe first draft of the script, there
was no other project calledGood Grief.
(33:56):
There's now if you go on IMDb,probably like 37.
I really thought I wasoriginal, but my first backup name
was Good Morning.
And then.
You know, you, you heard it,you know, so good.
(34:16):
I think third time's a charm.
You got it.
Great.
Perfect.
Oh, good.
I will say, though, I thinkyou have to use that.
Yeah, right.
Or.
Some kind of merch.
I love it.
Well, and I, you know, it'sfunny because that was one of the
first things I, I didn'trealize I was kind of figuring this
out.
But I remember first sittingin my son's like, high school counselor's
(34:41):
office and I was having a fullon meltdown because I was so worried
about him.
He wasn't going to school.
Like, we were having the wholeschool refusal thing.
It was, it was a hot mess.
And I was just like, oh, itwas with him, this whole thing.
And I was like, it is justlike my entire movie reel has exploded.
And he was laughing.
Well, I think you might havesomething there.
(35:03):
And I was like, I think Imight like my biggest fan.
Like, this is what happens.
Listen, parents, it's okay.
Like when your child comesout, it's totally fine.
Like, they need to be upsetbecause their.
Everything's turned upsidedown for them.
Like encourage them to mournand you mourn like Be sad.
Like, let go of.
(35:23):
Because then you get to, like,enjoy all the cool stuff on the other
side.
Yeah, completely good.
Let that move.
Exactly.
It's all good.
So funny, the crazy things wecome up with.
Right?
So, okay, so let's talk aboutall the ways that people can.
(35:46):
Can find you, obviously.
When is this official?
Like, officially out into the world?
Officially out on May 30,which is Friday, May 30, 2025.
All six episodes are gonna bedropped at once.
So you'll be able to hopefullybinge it all and then fingers crossed
(36:11):
for, you know, more to come.
And you can find us on YouTube.
Wham.
The series.
That's where it will be.
We're on Instagram @WhamTheSeries.
We are on TikTok at Wham.
The series.
Or you can go to the website,which is whamtheseries.com Excellent.
(36:35):
I love it when things worktogether like that.
I mean.
And that's Wham W a m.
Yes.
Or what about me?
As opposed to the band?
As opposed to the band.
Yeah.
So no, check the URLs there.
Yes.
They're dead.
But if the band gets us moreviews, then we can stay for the band,
(36:59):
you know, come for the band.
Stay for the Grease.
Exactly.
There we go.
Another that's on the back of this.
This far.
Right.
I think it's going to have to be.
Oh, my gosh.
Okay.
This has been such a delight.
Is there anything you wouldlike to leave.
(37:19):
Leave with one final thought.
Support queer art.
That's it.
Yeah.
Queer and queer.
Independent art.
Independent.
Because it's hard to make things.
It's expensive to make things.
And yeah.
So just throw your money atany queer person.
(37:41):
You know, just give them allyour cows.
I love it.
Well, that's where we'releaving it today.
It has been such a delight to have.
Thank you.
What a beautiful invitationfrom Josh and Sam of what About Me.
Into their journey of creatinga project born from profound grief,
(38:03):
grief that is both universaland intimate.
They revealed how grief can bea catalyst for connection, healing,
and deeper understanding offamily dynamics, queer or otherwise.
Together, they showed us thatmorning is not darkness.
It is the first light of dawn,a testament to the love we carry.
(38:26):
Their conversation is abeautiful reminder that art doesn't
just reflect life.
It can help us live it morefully, more honestly, and with more
compassion for ourselves and others.
Thank you so much for joiningme today.
Make sure to catch newepisodes of More Human More Kind
every Tuesday and Friday.
(38:47):
Finally, if you've ever beencurious about what kind of ally you
are.
Take my new quiz to find out.
Just click on the link in theshow notes until next time.
Remember you are not alone.
(39:07):
Sa.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.