March 19, 2024 • 30 mins
Get ready for a blend of humor and insight with Joel and Misty on the More Math for More People Podcast as they celebrate "Let's Laugh Day" and Joel's quirky half birthday tradition.
Then they delve into the world of discretionary spaces in education. Pam Lindemer and Adam Varnes join them to unpack how these spaces are pivotal to foster inclusive and safe learning environments. Imagine steering a ship with over a thousand decisions to make daily – that's the life of a teacher in the classroom ocean! They discuss how the staggering 1500+ choices faced by educators weave the tapestry of student experience. They peel back the layers of these choices, highlighting the subtle messages they send and the transformative power of reflective practices. If you'd like to join a conversation with other educators on this topic, check out the Site-Based Leadership Program at https://cpm.org/sbl/
Then another installment of Join Them on Their Journey with Grahame and Maggie.
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everyone, it is March 19th 2024.
And this is Episode 23 ofSeason 3 of the More Math for
More People Podcast.
Cheers.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello, there, I'm.
Joel.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
And I'm Misty.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
And you're listening to the More Math for More People
Podcast, an outreach of CPMeducational program.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
We have a lot of conversations about math and
math education on this podcast.
We're passionate aboutcontinually improving the way
math is taught and we hope thatyou learn something in every
episode that helps you becomebetter at what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
And we hope that you have some fun and laugh as well.
That always makes things alittle more interesting.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yep, we're pretty passionate about having fun Joel
.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So please have a listen, and we think it'll be
well worth it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Well, here we are.
It is our national day segment.
So, as I always say, Joel, whatday is it?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Haha, let's laugh day .
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Wow, that was a really believable laugh.
Yeah it was like wow.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Haha, yeah, it's a very genuine laugh.
Let's laugh day.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Let's laugh day okay.
Is there something inparticular other than just like
why is it?
Let's laugh today instead ofjust like laughing day, that's a
good question Maybe that sounds.
I guess that sounds moreinviting.
What's that?
It's inclusive and inviting.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Maybe it's.
I mean, have a little fun withyour day.
Maybe the image I'm seeing forthe day.
It's a laughy taffy, so it's alaughy taffy sponsoring the stay
.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Really.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh, so it's like let's laugh laff.
No, it's, let's laugh, laugh.
But this year it is brought tous by Laffy Taffy.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Oh, man, we haven't had any sponsorships on the
podcast to this point.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Now we're sponsored well, today is sponsored Laffy
Taffy, that's right, and it's a24 hour joke fest.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Oh wow, this is expanding quite a bit, so it's
also jokes, laughing about jokes.
Do you have a go to joke?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
How many surrealists does it take to screw in a light
bulb?
I don't know A fish.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
That sounds good.
I like that one.
I've probably told my you couldhave my joke on the podcast
before, but people might notremember it or have heard it.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Let's hear it again.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Before.
But my go to joke is what'sgreen and has wheels?
I don't know Grass, I liedabout the wheels.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I'm shaking my head on a podcast.
I know I can't see it in themouth.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
No one can see you shaking your head.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
That is funny.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
It is funny.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
There's a whole it's probably like a hidden brain or
something where they talk aboutlike what we find funny, and one
of the things we find funny issomething that we don't expect
right.
We don't predict it.
It's that unpredictable piece.
And then something about oh itmakes sense, kind of, but it's
not what we predicted.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Well, I'll say also, there might be some laughter
involved in this.
But today is also halfway to mybirthday day and I celebrate my
I always celebrate my hotbirthday.
There's usually a lot of peopleout.
They there's special foods.
There's a parade here in SaltLake City on my half birthday.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
On your half birthday .
Speaker 2 (04:06):
For my half birthday, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I think they call it something like it's a lake city,
or is it Joel's half birthdayparade?
No, it's Joel's half birthdayday.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Some people get it mixed up with St Patty's Day
because it's on the same day,but it's really for On the same
day as St Patrick's?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
It's really for me?
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
It's my halfway birthday.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
It's close enough, it's about my birthday, oh.
I see, I see, I see, I see.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I see.
I see, Because St Patty's Dayis like on the 17th or something
.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It's just like the pre-amble for your half birthday
.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
That's right.
Everybody's just getting readyfor my birthday, my half
birthday.
I celebrate my half birthdayreligiously every year, and so
may or may not celebrate mybirthday.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Have you always celebrated your half birthday?
You always celebrate your halfbirthday and you might not
celebrate your actual birthday.
That's right, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I know why is that.
I think I'm trying to be alittle funny Because it's St
Patty's Day, for I got you, Igot you.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
okay, I think it all started too.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
I remember my mom and I when I was young I was
probably in middle school and wewere in a house exchange
program and so a family fromParis came to live in our house
and we went and we lived intheir house and in France they
celebrate Joel Day.
Because I guess he was a saintand I kind of really liked
(05:35):
getting some presents from JoelDay and celebrating Joel Day, so
I got maybe it's thatmotivation as well that I want
to continue the process.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I've never done a half birthday myself Like I have
to think about when my halfbirthday is.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Think about it.
It's never really come up in mylife before.
If you need assistance inlooking at what else is being
celebrated that day, to be withit.
You know what.
You have a resource right here.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
All right, I will definitely look into it Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
All right, so it's let's Laugh Day.
Let's Laugh Day On Joel's halfbirthday.
Half birthday, so if you haveany, send your best wishes
please.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Any things left over from St Patrick's Day.
You could enjoy them today, onJoel's half birthday and let's
Laugh Day.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Cheers ["Let's Laugh Day"].
["let's Laugh Day"].
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Okay, so today we're here with Pam Lindemur and Adam
Varnes, and I got the fortunateopportunity to be attending
site-based leadership this year,and in site-based leadership
we've been talking a lot aboutdiscretionary spaces, and so we
wanted to hear from Pam and Adam, because they've written an
article in the newsletter aboutsuch things.
(06:58):
So welcome, pam and Adam.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, of course.
Thank you and maybe if we justwanna start off letting us know
about these discretionary spaces.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
So what are they right?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
That's the question.
Speaker 6 (07:14):
So kind of to put it in really simple terms
discretionary spaces are.
They're those micro moments inwhich we make decisions, and so
these moments when we're in theclassroom or when we're with our
peers or colleagues they're notnecessarily dictated by
curriculum or school policies oreven what we intended to have
(07:35):
happen, but rather they're thoseunplanned moments where a
judgment call needs to be made,a decision needs to be made, and
our responses in thesediscretionary spaces provide
instances that reveal beliefs,they reveal our biases, but they
also provide opportunities forreflection as well.
So that's the simple version ofwhat a discretionary space is,
(07:58):
don't you?
Speaker 5 (07:59):
When I think about discretionary spaces, when I
first started thinking aboutthem, I thought about my job as
a grandmother and when mygrandkids I pick them up after
school sometimes and they aretired and ready for a snack and
they'll often ask me if they canwatch a show.
And that's one of those micromoments where I have a decision
(08:22):
to make and it might be easierjust to turn on a show and let
them watch than they are arguing, and I'm not fighting them
about what I'm giving them for asnack.
But I have decided to be moreintentional about that and
choose to sit down with them andhave a conversation instead.
So that's just an outside ofeducation example that might
(08:43):
help.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, for sure I didn't think about that in the
context of our conversation thatwe have discretionary spaces
everywhere in our lives and howwe handle those.
So that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
We have discretionary spaces right now.
That's true.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
That's true.
What kind of drew this as atopic for site-based leadership?
Are you all writing the article?
Got you interested?
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Well, last July I was in Detroit at the Michigan
Council of Teachers ofMathematics annual teacher
conference with a couple ofcolleagues, and Dr Deborah Ball
from the University of Michiganwas the keynote and she
delivered an address on thepower of teaching mathematics in
the struggle for justice and wefelt empowered by her message
(09:34):
and it started a conversationthat's continuing today about
how to be more intentional aboutthose decisions and how we
might spread the word to otherteachers so they feel empowered
as well.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Can you tell me more about Dr Deborah Ball's work and
?
Speaker 5 (09:51):
Yeah, so she takes an equity position on this and a
lot of her work has to do withyoung black girls and how they
are marginalized and how thatplays out in the classroom, and
so a lot of her research and herspeaking engagements and her
work revolves around that andhow to support them.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It definitely seems that discretionary spaces
depending on what lens we lookat, there's a lot of different
things that we can view withjust those little tiny decisions
we're making moment to moment.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
In the article you all talk about the resources,
even within a CPM lesson, or theresources CPM has.
Could you speak about thoseresources and how it's connected
to the theme of discretionaryspaces?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
I think the resources , the teacher notes are filled
with suggestions of how torespond in those discretionary
spaces.
So by engaging with teachernotes and using them as intended
, teachers are better preparedto respond in the moment.
Because a CPM classroom isfilled with discretionary spaces
(11:09):
, lots of opportunities, and byhaving those pocket questions
and the study team and teachingstrategies and all the
differentiation, the questioningthat you can do, all of those
things support your responses inthose moments.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
In the article.
I liked how you talked aboutthe study team and teaching
strategies, but when you broughtthe pocket questions in, for me
that was, oh yeah, like we needto almost train ourselves to be
ready for those opportunities.
Speaker 6 (11:40):
Well, teachers have a lot to plan for, and so,
without spoiling what's in thearticle, if you've read it, how
many educational decisions areteachers making throughout a day
?
Right, and so what we couldfind is that teachers are making
1500 educational decisions.
So in a six hour day, that'sfour decisions every minute,
(12:03):
which is a lot, and in additionto that, that's not even
counting things like grading orlesson planning.
That's just in the classroom,right, as they're facilitating a
lesson.
So you think about all thosedecisions.
Not all of them can be plannedfor, right, we can, we can
lesson plan, we can look at oursuggested lesson plan plan or
study team and teachingstrategies.
(12:23):
But a lot of those moments areon the fly, especially if you're
using a CPM classroom.
Students are at the whiteboards.
You can't anticipate everythingthat the groups are going to
write down, but it's in thosemoments, it's in those
discretionary spaces where wewant to be aware of the
decisions that we're making, thebeliefs that are the result of
(12:45):
those, and we want to use those,use these discretionary spaces,
to elevate our students andelevate their mathematical
status.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I liked one of the things that you said in the
article, also about some of thedecisions are things you decide
not to do.
Right, just the things I mightsay.
It might be the things I don'tsay, or the choices I don't make
, or I choosing not to do aparticular strategy or talk to a
particular group.
All of those little things,little tiny impacts.
(13:15):
Being mindful of them can beexhausting, but also is really
important for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And Pam, with your grandchildren too, how they
might come not wanting to watcha movie but want to Really
debrief about their day.
And then you've got to be readyfor that.
You have that opportunity too.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (13:37):
And I think that was a really powerful point for us
is it, even in inaction, that isstill in action?
So your choice as a teacher tonot do something is still in
action.
Right, for example, you go upto a group, maybe they're making
great progress.
Your inaction of maybe notasking them a question and just
(13:58):
moving on to the next group,that still says something about
your beliefs, not justpedagogically, but what you
believe about the group.
Right, they can probably moveon and they're probably gonna be
great if you just leave themalone.
So that was a really powerfulpoint to us as we came to that
conclusion that even inactionsare still actions.
Speaker 5 (14:15):
I totally I recently observed a teacher and she was
walking into her classroom asthe bell was ringing and kids
are getting settled in and shehad some things to do Take
attendance and things and shegot stopped by one of the
students and he said Did I dothis correctly?
And he had already finished thewarm-up problem and he wanted
(14:37):
to know.
And she responded I Don't know,but if I were you I'd check my
answer.
Maybe you can find another wayto solve the problem and see if
the result is the same.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
And how did that work out?
Speaker 5 (14:52):
Oh and and and it worked out well because he found
another way and checked hiswork.
But the conversation that sheand I had afterward I'm did you,
did you realize when you didthis?
And this is what had what hewent ahead and did, and it was a
really great Conversation abouta decision that she made that
she may not have even thoughtabout afterward, but it really
(15:14):
got the two of us to thinkingand really curious about what
kind of a message we're sendingto kids.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
True.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I think that's one of the interesting things when
we're talking with teacherssometimes or even with teachers
are observing each other is tobe able to ask each other about
those decisions, because wedon't always think about them
and sometimes we just go withour gut or sometimes we go with
a pattern that we've used beforeand I know I've had
conversations with teachers likethat where I said I'm really
(15:41):
curious around when you decidedto do this, what were you
thinking, what was going on inyour brain when you made that
decision?
And sometimes like what andreally think about it oh, here's
what I saw happened and they'relike oh, so there's like, but
it be able to observe ourselvescan be challenging.
So having that ability to askeach other around decisions and
and pieces that we said that wemight not have thought about,
(16:03):
yeah, be really vulnerable attimes.
Speaker 6 (16:08):
I think that was one of our main goals of this
article and for having this bethe theme was it applies to
teachers by, just for now, atthis point, just making yourself
aware that there are thesemoments and again, you can't
plan for them all, you're notgonna be able to, you're not
even gonna be your best in allof those moments but just being
more aware that these momentsexist, both in actions and
(16:31):
actions, or included, and andjust by being more aware we can
give more attention to it andhopefully that makes us better.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I know by reading the article it really made me think
of past decisions that I'vedone.
Like I got really reflectiveabout oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
It hasn't done a work in my waythat way.
Speaker 5 (16:53):
Yeah, that reflection has really helped me understand
discretionary spaces muchbetter and how I can use them to
my students' advantage.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
So you said this is the theme for site-based
leadership this year.
So if someone who hears thispodcast and is like what is this
site-based leadership thing?
I haven't heard about this, howwould they go find out more?
Speaker 5 (17:19):
So they can join the site-based leadership program.
They can go directly into theprofessional learning portal and
join there, or, on the website,they could search for
site-based leadership programand find a way to enroll in the
program there, and that willgive them access to recordings
and information to the next twolive events that we have coming
(17:42):
up as well.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Okay, awesome, and we'll put a link in the podcast
description for people to findthat as well.
So, yeah, if you want to getinvolved with the site-based
leadership program, it's not toolate, I think.
Even if you get involved now,you can continue on until next
year, so it's a good time to gofigure it out.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (18:01):
And keep an eye out.
We are working on a sequel, soone of the Yep.
There's a little teaser for you.
But yeah, as part of thesite-based leadership program,
what we wanted to do was look atdiscretionary spaces in
different educational spaces onour site.
So what are discretionaryspaces?
What does that look like in theclassroom?
What does that look like aswe're coaching?
What does that look like withour peers?
(18:23):
So our first newsletter tackledthe classroom and we're looking
at writing a sequel that willcover discretionary spaces in a
different space.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That's awesome.
We're hoping to have more ofthe folks who have presented and
things like that at site-basedleadership on the podcast, so
we're working on a sequel too,so we'll stay tuned to both.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, totally.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to be with us today.
We really appreciate it andtalking with us about
discretionary spaces, andthere'll be some more
information in the descriptionif you want to follow up.
Thanks, and here we haveanother installment of Join them
(19:14):
on their Journey.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Enjoy.
It's Maggie, and this is whereI am on my journey.
I am currently planning outsome lessons that I originally
had actually planned on skipping.
I think what I was tellingmyself is that I wanted to skip
these lessons so that I got toall the main content that we set
(19:36):
out to cover this year, but thereality is that I was skipping
it because I was unsure of whatthe outcome could be from a
lesson on generational wealth.
So the inspiring connection hassome of these beautifully rich
(19:56):
lessons that are new to thecurriculum, and I had never
taught a lesson on generationalwealth, so I think I was
hesitant to incorporate it intoour lessons because of this
unknown of what feelings couldbe brought up for my students,
and I would say it's coming outof a place of caring for the
students.
(20:17):
But I think also and whyinspiring connections was very
intentional about implementingthese new lessons is that we
also have a great opportunity aseducators to create a very safe
environment for our students toengage in different topics, and
(20:38):
engage in topics where they'reultimately going to be
discussing it in their life,beyond our classroom setting,
and so we want to set them up sothat they are successful for
when generational wealth doescome up, they have tools, they
have knowledge, they havelanguage that they can use to
(20:59):
engage in those conversations.
So I am currently planning outa lessons, or a couple of
lessons, for generational wealth, and so in deciding to take on
these lessons, I wanted to makesure that I'm setting myself up
to be the best teacher for theselessons, but then also make
(21:21):
sure that it's a safeenvironment.
So what I'm gonna share about isjust two main points that I'm
really focusing on in thedecision to go ahead with these
lessons and how I'm trying toensure that all students feel
very safe and heard and valued.
So the first one that I'mreally thinking about is making
(21:42):
sure that the students havenorms, making sure that there is
a way that we are communicating.
I do teach seventh grade, so inthinking about seventh graders
and their excitement, sometimesit happens that they'll share
what's on their mind.
So what I'm gonna be doing isreally setting the norms of how
(22:03):
we communicate about wealth atthe very beginning of this class
, and my hope is that thestudents who are more privileged
and have access to differentthings do not blurt out what
their family's wealth situationis versus other students who may
not have access to that.
So some of the norms that I'mgoing to be setting at the
(22:24):
beginning is gonna be primarilyfocusing on that we can engage
in conversations about wealthwithout directly sharing what
our own in this case, family'swealth background is, and I
think that's a skill that theycan take beyond just this safe
classroom setting.
That we can talk about stocks,we can talk about mortgages and
(22:48):
financial aid and we can engagein these conversations without
making anyone feel uncomfortablebecause maybe we have access to
that or maybe we don't haveaccess to that.
So setting the norms of howwe're communicating is gonna be
one of the first things that Iam going to do to ensure that
(23:09):
all students feel comfortable.
And then the next thing that I'mreally focusing on as I'm going
through and creating theselessons is seeing if there's are
any opportunities wherepotential questions will come up
beyond just the math when thelessons it's going over student
loans and trying to think aboutin the middle school mind what
(23:32):
things that they might bethinking about and really making
sure that I can answer or say Idon't have the answer to, but
we can figure it out.
And so I'm trying to be veryproactive, especially in these
lessons that I would be lying ifI didn't say like it makes me
feel uncomfortable, because Iwouldn't want the students to
feel uncomfortable, and so I amexcited to go through these
(23:56):
lessons.
I am glad that I took some timeto reflect on my own teaching
and what would be beneficial tothe students.
I have, again, not taught thisclass yet, so I'm looking
forward to teaching it and thenreporting back in my next
installment.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Hello, misty and Joel Graham here reporting at the
end of the third term.
I can't believe the years flownby as fast as it has.
We have one more quarter to goand that's the end of the year,
and while that's approachingquickly, I think this time of
year teachers and students cankind of get into a same old
(24:39):
routine where we're just goingthrough the motions.
I recently had an observationby a coach from our district and
I got some good feedback onengagement and ideas for
enhancing collaboration.
I think they were some goodreminders that I'd like to focus
(25:00):
on as I move forward, the firstone being with engagement and
enhancing collaboration.
Getting students moving and upat vertical surfaces can be a
great way to get studentstalking and thinking together.
So I've been trying to findproblems that students can work
(25:24):
on at vertical surfaces withinthe CPM curriculum, and when I
do that I find class moves a lotsmoother and students generally
are more engaged.
Some other ideas that wentalong with that were to include
ice breakers with studentsgetting to know each other, but
(25:45):
also when they go to thevertical surfaces I could do
some activities like line up indifferent orders or some brain
breaks where students take abreak and do something that
revitalizes their mind and body.
I usually have students givethe marker to whoever has a
(26:09):
birthday that's closest to theday that we're doing the
activity, or whoever has theleast amount of siblings, trying
to get students to know eachother as they're working with
each other.
Another thing that's come up isto make sure that I'm using
variety of classroom modes.
(26:29):
This was a good reminder fromSection 3 instructional
strategies that are evident whencollaborative learning is in
place.
So I've been trying to findtimes when it's appropriate to
have classroom discussions,students working in teams where
we don't need to review theproblems, and then individual
(26:53):
work time.
I really value students workingtogether and collaborating and
sharing ideas, but I've learnedthat not every student thrives
in those conditions and somestudents actually appreciate
that individual work time.
I think that using the varietyand getting students up and
(27:16):
moving can really help class runmore smoothly and students be
more engaged with what we'redoing.
The last thing that I'vereflected on at the end of the
term here has been my use ofalternative assessments.
I've done presentations andprojects and I've really found
(27:38):
those to be beneficial forstudents but also for me, to see
how they are learning thematerial and how they're
thinking about it.
I'm able to ask studentsparticular questions about the
mathematics they use, and theyare also able to be a little
more creative with thepresentation and the project and
(28:00):
choosing how they want to showand demonstrate their
understanding of the math.
One of my favorite projectsthat a student did was she
calculated the angles andposition of a cue ball and then
videoed herself hitting the ballagainst two walls of a billiard
(28:22):
table and sinking it into apocket.
Well, thanks for listening.
Keep up the good work everyone.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So that's all we have time for on this episode of the
More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
The music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H and can be
found on pixivaycom.
Julius, join us in two weeksfor the next episode of More
(28:59):
Math for More People.
What day will that be, Joel?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
It'll be April 2nd, national Peanut Butter and Jelly
Day.
I love a good peanut butter andjelly.
I think that's probably one ofmy favorite things to take with
me if I'm driving in the car oranything like that Peanut butter
for sure.
I don't often do the jelly, butwhen I do I don't regret it,
that's for sure.
I hear all sorts of storiesabout peanut butter and jelly
(29:24):
and I know there's some songs.
I know there's good stories andhistory around peanut butter
and jelly and it's just one ofthe most popular sandwiches that
are around today and it'saffordable, it's tasty, it's
easy.
I can only appreciate it.
On April 2nd.
(29:44):
See you then.
Hello everyone, it is March 19th 2024.
And this is Episode 23 ofSeason 3 of the More Math for
More People Podcast.
Cheers.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Hello, there, I'm.
Joel.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
And I'm Misty.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
And you're listening to the More Math for More People
Podcast, an outreach of CPMeducational program.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
We have a lot of conversations about math and
math education on this podcast.
We're passionate aboutcontinually improving the way
math is taught and we hope thatyou learn something in every
episode that helps you becomebetter at what you do.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
And we hope that you have some fun and laugh as well.
That always makes things alittle more interesting.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yep, we're pretty passionate about having fun Joel
.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
So please have a listen, and we think it'll be
well worth it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Well, here we are.
It is our national day segment.
So, as I always say, Joel, whatday is it?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Haha, let's laugh day .
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Wow, that was a really believable laugh.
Yeah it was like wow.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Haha, yeah, it's a very genuine laugh.
Let's laugh day.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Let's laugh day okay.
Is there something inparticular other than just like
why is it?
Let's laugh today instead ofjust like laughing day, that's a
good question Maybe that sounds.
I guess that sounds moreinviting.
What's that?
It's inclusive and inviting.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Maybe it's.
I mean, have a little fun withyour day.
Maybe the image I'm seeing forthe day.
It's a laughy taffy, so it's alaughy taffy sponsoring the stay
.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Really.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Oh, so it's like let's laugh laff.
No, it's, let's laugh, laugh.
But this year it is brought tous by Laffy Taffy.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Oh, man, we haven't had any sponsorships on the
podcast to this point.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Now we're sponsored well, today is sponsored Laffy
Taffy, that's right, and it's a24 hour joke fest.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Oh wow, this is expanding quite a bit, so it's
also jokes, laughing about jokes.
Do you have a go to joke?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
How many surrealists does it take to screw in a light
bulb?
I don't know A fish.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
That sounds good.
I like that one.
I've probably told my you couldhave my joke on the podcast
before, but people might notremember it or have heard it.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Let's hear it again.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Before.
But my go to joke is what'sgreen and has wheels?
I don't know Grass, I liedabout the wheels.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I'm shaking my head on a podcast.
I know I can't see it in themouth.
Speaker 6 (03:21):
No one can see you shaking your head.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
That is funny.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
It is funny.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
There's a whole it's probably like a hidden brain or
something where they talk aboutlike what we find funny, and one
of the things we find funny issomething that we don't expect
right.
We don't predict it.
It's that unpredictable piece.
And then something about oh itmakes sense, kind of, but it's
not what we predicted.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Well, I'll say also, there might be some laughter
involved in this.
But today is also halfway to mybirthday day and I celebrate my
I always celebrate my hotbirthday.
There's usually a lot of peopleout.
They there's special foods.
There's a parade here in SaltLake City on my half birthday.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
On your half birthday .
Speaker 2 (04:06):
For my half birthday, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I think they call it something like it's a lake city,
or is it Joel's half birthdayparade?
No, it's Joel's half birthdayday.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Some people get it mixed up with St Patty's Day
because it's on the same day,but it's really for On the same
day as St Patrick's?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
It's really for me?
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
It's my halfway birthday.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
It's close enough, it's about my birthday, oh.
I see, I see, I see, I see.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I see.
I see, Because St Patty's Dayis like on the 17th or something
.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
It's just like the pre-amble for your half birthday
.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
That's right.
Everybody's just getting readyfor my birthday, my half
birthday.
I celebrate my half birthdayreligiously every year, and so
may or may not celebrate mybirthday.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Have you always celebrated your half birthday?
You always celebrate your halfbirthday and you might not
celebrate your actual birthday.
That's right, that'sinteresting.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
I know why is that.
I think I'm trying to be alittle funny Because it's St
Patty's Day, for I got you, Igot you.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
okay, I think it all started too.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
I remember my mom and I when I was young I was
probably in middle school and wewere in a house exchange
program and so a family fromParis came to live in our house
and we went and we lived intheir house and in France they
celebrate Joel Day.
Because I guess he was a saintand I kind of really liked
(05:35):
getting some presents from JoelDay and celebrating Joel Day, so
I got maybe it's thatmotivation as well that I want
to continue the process.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
I've never done a half birthday myself Like I have
to think about when my halfbirthday is.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Think about it.
It's never really come up in mylife before.
If you need assistance inlooking at what else is being
celebrated that day, to be withit.
You know what.
You have a resource right here.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
All right, I will definitely look into it Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
All right, so it's let's Laugh Day.
Let's Laugh Day On Joel's halfbirthday.
Half birthday, so if you haveany, send your best wishes
please.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Any things left over from St Patrick's Day.
You could enjoy them today, onJoel's half birthday and let's
Laugh Day.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Cheers ["Let's Laugh Day"].
["let's Laugh Day"].
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Okay, so today we're here with Pam Lindemur and Adam
Varnes, and I got the fortunateopportunity to be attending
site-based leadership this year,and in site-based leadership
we've been talking a lot aboutdiscretionary spaces, and so we
wanted to hear from Pam and Adam, because they've written an
article in the newsletter aboutsuch things.
(06:58):
So welcome, pam and Adam.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, of course.
Thank you and maybe if we justwanna start off letting us know
about these discretionary spaces.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
So what are they right?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
That's the question.
Speaker 6 (07:14):
So kind of to put it in really simple terms
discretionary spaces are.
They're those micro moments inwhich we make decisions, and so
these moments when we're in theclassroom or when we're with our
peers or colleagues they're notnecessarily dictated by
curriculum or school policies oreven what we intended to have
(07:35):
happen, but rather they're thoseunplanned moments where a
judgment call needs to be made,a decision needs to be made, and
our responses in thesediscretionary spaces provide
instances that reveal beliefs,they reveal our biases, but they
also provide opportunities forreflection as well.
So that's the simple version ofwhat a discretionary space is,
(07:58):
don't you?
Speaker 5 (07:59):
When I think about discretionary spaces, when I
first started thinking aboutthem, I thought about my job as
a grandmother and when mygrandkids I pick them up after
school sometimes and they aretired and ready for a snack and
they'll often ask me if they canwatch a show.
And that's one of those micromoments where I have a decision
(08:22):
to make and it might be easierjust to turn on a show and let
them watch than they are arguing, and I'm not fighting them
about what I'm giving them for asnack.
But I have decided to be moreintentional about that and
choose to sit down with them andhave a conversation instead.
So that's just an outside ofeducation example that might
(08:43):
help.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Yeah, for sure I didn't think about that in the
context of our conversation thatwe have discretionary spaces
everywhere in our lives and howwe handle those.
So that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
We have discretionary spaces right now.
That's true.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
That's true.
What kind of drew this as atopic for site-based leadership?
Are you all writing the article?
Got you interested?
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Well, last July I was in Detroit at the Michigan
Council of Teachers ofMathematics annual teacher
conference with a couple ofcolleagues, and Dr Deborah Ball
from the University of Michiganwas the keynote and she
delivered an address on thepower of teaching mathematics in
the struggle for justice and wefelt empowered by her message
(09:34):
and it started a conversationthat's continuing today about
how to be more intentional aboutthose decisions and how we
might spread the word to otherteachers so they feel empowered
as well.
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Can you tell me more about Dr Deborah Ball's work and
?
Speaker 5 (09:51):
Yeah, so she takes an equity position on this and a
lot of her work has to do withyoung black girls and how they
are marginalized and how thatplays out in the classroom, and
so a lot of her research and herspeaking engagements and her
work revolves around that andhow to support them.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It definitely seems that discretionary spaces
depending on what lens we lookat, there's a lot of different
things that we can view withjust those little tiny decisions
we're making moment to moment.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
In the article you all talk about the resources,
even within a CPM lesson, or theresources CPM has.
Could you speak about thoseresources and how it's connected
to the theme of discretionaryspaces?
Speaker 5 (10:45):
I think the resources , the teacher notes are filled
with suggestions of how torespond in those discretionary
spaces.
So by engaging with teachernotes and using them as intended
, teachers are better preparedto respond in the moment.
Because a CPM classroom isfilled with discretionary spaces
(11:09):
, lots of opportunities, and byhaving those pocket questions
and the study team and teachingstrategies and all the
differentiation, the questioningthat you can do, all of those
things support your responses inthose moments.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
In the article.
I liked how you talked aboutthe study team and teaching
strategies, but when you broughtthe pocket questions in, for me
that was, oh yeah, like we needto almost train ourselves to be
ready for those opportunities.
Speaker 6 (11:40):
Well, teachers have a lot to plan for, and so,
without spoiling what's in thearticle, if you've read it, how
many educational decisions areteachers making throughout a day
?
Right, and so what we couldfind is that teachers are making
1500 educational decisions.
So in a six hour day, that'sfour decisions every minute,
(12:03):
which is a lot, and in additionto that, that's not even
counting things like grading orlesson planning.
That's just in the classroom,right, as they're facilitating a
lesson.
So you think about all thosedecisions.
Not all of them can be plannedfor, right, we can, we can
lesson plan, we can look at oursuggested lesson plan plan or
study team and teachingstrategies.
(12:23):
But a lot of those moments areon the fly, especially if you're
using a CPM classroom.
Students are at the whiteboards.
You can't anticipate everythingthat the groups are going to
write down, but it's in thosemoments, it's in those
discretionary spaces where wewant to be aware of the
decisions that we're making, thebeliefs that are the result of
(12:45):
those, and we want to use those,use these discretionary spaces,
to elevate our students andelevate their mathematical
status.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I liked one of the things that you said in the
article, also about some of thedecisions are things you decide
not to do.
Right, just the things I mightsay.
It might be the things I don'tsay, or the choices I don't make
, or I choosing not to do aparticular strategy or talk to a
particular group.
All of those little things,little tiny impacts.
(13:15):
Being mindful of them can beexhausting, but also is really
important for sure.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
And Pam, with your grandchildren too, how they
might come not wanting to watcha movie but want to Really
debrief about their day.
And then you've got to be readyfor that.
You have that opportunity too.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (13:37):
And I think that was a really powerful point for us
is it, even in inaction, that isstill in action?
So your choice as a teacher tonot do something is still in
action.
Right, for example, you go upto a group, maybe they're making
great progress.
Your inaction of maybe notasking them a question and just
(13:58):
moving on to the next group,that still says something about
your beliefs, not justpedagogically, but what you
believe about the group.
Right, they can probably moveon and they're probably gonna be
great if you just leave themalone.
So that was a really powerfulpoint to us as we came to that
conclusion that even inactionsare still actions.
Speaker 5 (14:15):
I totally I recently observed a teacher and she was
walking into her classroom asthe bell was ringing and kids
are getting settled in and shehad some things to do Take
attendance and things and shegot stopped by one of the
students and he said Did I dothis correctly?
And he had already finished thewarm-up problem and he wanted
(14:37):
to know.
And she responded I Don't know,but if I were you I'd check my
answer.
Maybe you can find another wayto solve the problem and see if
the result is the same.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
And how did that work out?
Speaker 5 (14:52):
Oh and and and it worked out well because he found
another way and checked hiswork.
But the conversation that sheand I had afterward I'm did you,
did you realize when you didthis?
And this is what had what hewent ahead and did, and it was a
really great Conversation abouta decision that she made that
she may not have even thoughtabout afterward, but it really
(15:14):
got the two of us to thinkingand really curious about what
kind of a message we're sendingto kids.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
True.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I think that's one of the interesting things when
we're talking with teacherssometimes or even with teachers
are observing each other is tobe able to ask each other about
those decisions, because wedon't always think about them
and sometimes we just go withour gut or sometimes we go with
a pattern that we've used beforeand I know I've had
conversations with teachers likethat where I said I'm really
(15:41):
curious around when you decidedto do this, what were you
thinking, what was going on inyour brain when you made that
decision?
And sometimes like what andreally think about it oh, here's
what I saw happened and they'relike oh, so there's like, but
it be able to observe ourselvescan be challenging.
So having that ability to askeach other around decisions and
and pieces that we said that wemight not have thought about,
(16:03):
yeah, be really vulnerable attimes.
Speaker 6 (16:08):
I think that was one of our main goals of this
article and for having this bethe theme was it applies to
teachers by, just for now, atthis point, just making yourself
aware that there are thesemoments and again, you can't
plan for them all, you're notgonna be able to, you're not
even gonna be your best in allof those moments but just being
more aware that these momentsexist, both in actions and
(16:31):
actions, or included, and andjust by being more aware we can
give more attention to it andhopefully that makes us better.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
I know by reading the article it really made me think
of past decisions that I'vedone.
Like I got really reflectiveabout oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
It hasn't done a work in my waythat way.
Speaker 5 (16:53):
Yeah, that reflection has really helped me understand
discretionary spaces muchbetter and how I can use them to
my students' advantage.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
So you said this is the theme for site-based
leadership this year.
So if someone who hears thispodcast and is like what is this
site-based leadership thing?
I haven't heard about this, howwould they go find out more?
Speaker 5 (17:19):
So they can join the site-based leadership program.
They can go directly into theprofessional learning portal and
join there, or, on the website,they could search for
site-based leadership programand find a way to enroll in the
program there, and that willgive them access to recordings
and information to the next twolive events that we have coming
(17:42):
up as well.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Okay, awesome, and we'll put a link in the podcast
description for people to findthat as well.
So, yeah, if you want to getinvolved with the site-based
leadership program, it's not toolate, I think.
Even if you get involved now,you can continue on until next
year, so it's a good time to gofigure it out.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (18:01):
And keep an eye out.
We are working on a sequel, soone of the Yep.
There's a little teaser for you.
But yeah, as part of thesite-based leadership program,
what we wanted to do was look atdiscretionary spaces in
different educational spaces onour site.
So what are discretionaryspaces?
What does that look like in theclassroom?
What does that look like aswe're coaching?
What does that look like withour peers?
(18:23):
So our first newsletter tackledthe classroom and we're looking
at writing a sequel that willcover discretionary spaces in a
different space.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
That's awesome.
We're hoping to have more ofthe folks who have presented and
things like that at site-basedleadership on the podcast, so
we're working on a sequel too,so we'll stay tuned to both.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, totally.
Thank you so much for takingthe time to be with us today.
We really appreciate it andtalking with us about
discretionary spaces, andthere'll be some more
information in the descriptionif you want to follow up.
Thanks, and here we haveanother installment of Join them
(19:14):
on their Journey.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Enjoy.
It's Maggie, and this is whereI am on my journey.
I am currently planning outsome lessons that I originally
had actually planned on skipping.
I think what I was tellingmyself is that I wanted to skip
these lessons so that I got toall the main content that we set
(19:36):
out to cover this year, but thereality is that I was skipping
it because I was unsure of whatthe outcome could be from a
lesson on generational wealth.
So the inspiring connection hassome of these beautifully rich
(19:56):
lessons that are new to thecurriculum, and I had never
taught a lesson on generationalwealth, so I think I was
hesitant to incorporate it intoour lessons because of this
unknown of what feelings couldbe brought up for my students,
and I would say it's coming outof a place of caring for the
students.
(20:17):
But I think also and whyinspiring connections was very
intentional about implementingthese new lessons is that we
also have a great opportunity aseducators to create a very safe
environment for our students toengage in different topics, and
(20:38):
engage in topics where they'reultimately going to be
discussing it in their life,beyond our classroom setting,
and so we want to set them up sothat they are successful for
when generational wealth doescome up, they have tools, they
have knowledge, they havelanguage that they can use to
(20:59):
engage in those conversations.
So I am currently planning outa lessons, or a couple of
lessons, for generational wealth, and so in deciding to take on
these lessons, I wanted to makesure that I'm setting myself up
to be the best teacher for theselessons, but then also make
(21:21):
sure that it's a safeenvironment.
So what I'm gonna share about isjust two main points that I'm
really focusing on in thedecision to go ahead with these
lessons and how I'm trying toensure that all students feel
very safe and heard and valued.
So the first one that I'mreally thinking about is making
(21:42):
sure that the students havenorms, making sure that there is
a way that we are communicating.
I do teach seventh grade, so inthinking about seventh graders
and their excitement, sometimesit happens that they'll share
what's on their mind.
So what I'm gonna be doing isreally setting the norms of how
(22:03):
we communicate about wealth atthe very beginning of this class
, and my hope is that thestudents who are more privileged
and have access to differentthings do not blurt out what
their family's wealth situationis versus other students who may
not have access to that.
So some of the norms that I'mgoing to be setting at the
(22:24):
beginning is gonna be primarilyfocusing on that we can engage
in conversations about wealthwithout directly sharing what
our own in this case, family'swealth background is, and I
think that's a skill that theycan take beyond just this safe
classroom setting.
That we can talk about stocks,we can talk about mortgages and
(22:48):
financial aid and we can engagein these conversations without
making anyone feel uncomfortablebecause maybe we have access to
that or maybe we don't haveaccess to that.
So setting the norms of howwe're communicating is gonna be
one of the first things that Iam going to do to ensure that
(23:09):
all students feel comfortable.
And then the next thing that I'mreally focusing on as I'm going
through and creating theselessons is seeing if there's are
any opportunities wherepotential questions will come up
beyond just the math when thelessons it's going over student
loans and trying to think aboutin the middle school mind what
(23:32):
things that they might bethinking about and really making
sure that I can answer or say Idon't have the answer to, but
we can figure it out.
And so I'm trying to be veryproactive, especially in these
lessons that I would be lying ifI didn't say like it makes me
feel uncomfortable, because Iwouldn't want the students to
feel uncomfortable, and so I amexcited to go through these
(23:56):
lessons.
I am glad that I took some timeto reflect on my own teaching
and what would be beneficial tothe students.
I have, again, not taught thisclass yet, so I'm looking
forward to teaching it and thenreporting back in my next
installment.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Hello, misty and Joel Graham here reporting at the
end of the third term.
I can't believe the years flownby as fast as it has.
We have one more quarter to goand that's the end of the year,
and while that's approachingquickly, I think this time of
year teachers and students cankind of get into a same old
(24:39):
routine where we're just goingthrough the motions.
I recently had an observationby a coach from our district and
I got some good feedback onengagement and ideas for
enhancing collaboration.
I think they were some goodreminders that I'd like to focus
(25:00):
on as I move forward, the firstone being with engagement and
enhancing collaboration.
Getting students moving and upat vertical surfaces can be a
great way to get studentstalking and thinking together.
So I've been trying to findproblems that students can work
(25:24):
on at vertical surfaces withinthe CPM curriculum, and when I
do that I find class moves a lotsmoother and students generally
are more engaged.
Some other ideas that wentalong with that were to include
ice breakers with studentsgetting to know each other, but
(25:45):
also when they go to thevertical surfaces I could do
some activities like line up indifferent orders or some brain
breaks where students take abreak and do something that
revitalizes their mind and body.
I usually have students givethe marker to whoever has a
(26:09):
birthday that's closest to theday that we're doing the
activity, or whoever has theleast amount of siblings, trying
to get students to know eachother as they're working with
each other.
Another thing that's come up isto make sure that I'm using
variety of classroom modes.
(26:29):
This was a good reminder fromSection 3 instructional
strategies that are evident whencollaborative learning is in
place.
So I've been trying to findtimes when it's appropriate to
have classroom discussions,students working in teams where
we don't need to review theproblems, and then individual
(26:53):
work time.
I really value students workingtogether and collaborating and
sharing ideas, but I've learnedthat not every student thrives
in those conditions and somestudents actually appreciate
that individual work time.
I think that using the varietyand getting students up and
(27:16):
moving can really help class runmore smoothly and students be
more engaged with what we'redoing.
The last thing that I'vereflected on at the end of the
term here has been my use ofalternative assessments.
I've done presentations andprojects and I've really found
(27:38):
those to be beneficial forstudents but also for me, to see
how they are learning thematerial and how they're
thinking about it.
I'm able to ask studentsparticular questions about the
mathematics they use, and theyare also able to be a little
more creative with thepresentation and the project and
(28:00):
choosing how they want to showand demonstrate their
understanding of the math.
One of my favorite projectsthat a student did was she
calculated the angles andposition of a cue ball and then
videoed herself hitting the ballagainst two walls of a billiard
(28:22):
table and sinking it into apocket.
Well, thanks for listening.
Keep up the good work everyone.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So that's all we have time for on this episode of the
More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
The music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H and can be
found on pixivaycom.
Julius, join us in two weeksfor the next episode of More
(28:59):
Math for More People.
What day will that be, Joel?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
It'll be April 2nd, national Peanut Butter and Jelly
Day.
I love a good peanut butter andjelly.
I think that's probably one ofmy favorite things to take with
me if I'm driving in the car oranything like that Peanut butter
for sure.
I don't often do the jelly, butwhen I do I don't regret it,
that's for sure.
I hear all sorts of storiesabout peanut butter and jelly
(29:24):
and I know there's some songs.
I know there's good stories andhistory around peanut butter
and jelly and it's just one ofthe most popular sandwiches that
are around today and it'saffordable, it's tasty, it's
easy.
I can only appreciate it.
On April 2nd.
(29:44):
See you then.
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