October 15, 2024 • 27 mins
Have you ever wondered about the origin of cheese curds or how they became such a beloved snack? Join Joel and Misty as they kick off National Cheese Curd Day with some mouth-watering stories and a sprinkle of history. Get ready to celebrate in style with tips on how to enjoy this day, whether by crafting your own batch at home or setting out on a delicious road trip to Wisconsin.
Our episode takes an exciting turn as we spotlight Christopher Danielson, a trailblazer in transforming math education into a joyful adventure. Christopher shares his inspiring journey from teaching in St. Paul to spearheading innovative math play initiatives at the Math Happens Foundation. Discover how he encourages a playful exploration of math by challenging traditional educational boundaries, captivating communities with his imaginative approach.
You can connect with Christopher at:
https://talkingmathwithkids.com/
https://www.public-math.org/
https://christopherdanielson.wordpress.com/
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach CPM educationalprogram Boom.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Here we are, october 15th 2024.
What is the national day today?
Joel?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, it's a good one ?
For me, I think yeah, it'sNational Cheese Curd Day.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Oh, I do like me some cheese curds.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Me too Nice.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, when was the first time you ever had cheese
curds?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So I would say, the first time I remember
experiencing cheese curds wasthe Minnesota State Fair.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
And since then anytime I get to the fair I eat
the cheese curds, morning, noonand night.
That was my first memory.
And then I got to Utah and theywere selling cheese curds but
they didn't have like corn, likefried, around them.
I was like, oh, they weren'tlike fried cheese curds, cheese
curds.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
What is this stuff?
Oh, so the first time you hadthem they were like cooked
cheese curds.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, they were delicious.
How about you?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I remember it was sometime, probably like at
university or something, when Iwas in the Midwest.
We were traveling somewhere itmight have been like to the
Upper Peninsula or somewhere butthey had them and I had never
heard of such a thing and theywere quite delicious because
they were like fresh anddelicious.
And since then I got excitedbecause I saw them at grocery
stores.
(01:46):
Cheese curds they have mycheese curds here.
You can buy them here in thegrocery stores in Portland now.
But they're like vacuum pack.
And I mean they're not fresh,but they're like they've been
packaged and they're not thesame.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
They're not as delicious.
Exactly that's what I'm talkingabout the other worms.
Well, so a couple things aboutcheese curds, because I started
searching the history of thecheese curds and and the 1100s.
There is a celtic song thatmakes reference to the cheese
(02:23):
curd and it's like firstreference to a cheese curd and
the lyric is then I went in thedoor of it was hung beef, the
threshold was dry bread, cheesecurds on the wall.
That's.
That's the lyric.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Did they tell you the rest of this song or just that
obscure bit of out of contextlyrics they have all the lyrics.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, there's not like a recording it's clearly
metaphor the music.
Yeah, I'm actually on a sitecalled the quest for perfect
curds and on that site you cansee the true cheese curd history
.
There's links to the cheesytimes or the cheesy underground,
cheese Curds 101.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So if you're interested, quest for Perfect
Curds is what you're looking forthe whole cheese culture
Interesting, Interesting, yeahWell, I mean cheese curds
clearly have been around sincepeople started making cheese.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
And I remember one time working in the dairy I
(03:50):
think this was cheese, but tellme what you think.
I was the Sunday nightpasteurizer.
So I'd come in on Sunday nightsand I'd start everything up,
but on Saturday mornings, whenthe last pasteurizer left, we
always started the buttermilk.
So you start the buttermilk,you cook it and then, before you
(04:10):
leave you cool it, or thatpasteurizer had forgot to cool
it, so it just kept cooking fora day.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So when I got there it had curded over like the lid
and there was a mountain of curdthe size of me that I had to
then shovel away.
That to me is like a cheesecurdds.
I mean, I suppose the firstcheese curds I ever actually had
were cottage cheese.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, there you go.
Those are curds If you're fromthe Midwest or you know of the
Midwest, high V cottage cheesewith some ruffles delicious, Wow
, okay.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Any kind of ruffles, or just regular ruffles, just
the regular ruffles, no flavor.
You don't want flavors in there.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
You just want that salty, rigid edge to dip into
your cottage cheese.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
I like large curd cottage cheese I'm going to have
cottage cheese.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Do you have a way you might celebrate today?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I might have some cottage cheese actually.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I was going to think about it, it sounds delicious,
it does sound delicious.
I do like a cottage cheese.
Actually, I was not thinkingabout it.
It sounds delicious.
It does sound delicious.
I do like a cottage cheese, Ilike mine with a little pepper.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Oh, how are you going to celebrate?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Well, the choices that are in my information say
that you could take pictures,and every time you take a
picture, say cheese, you couldtry and make some cheese curd on
your own.
I don't think I'll do thatcheese.
You could try and make somecheese curd on your own.
I don't think I'll do that.
Or you could go crazy and takea trip to wisconsin.
Wow, to me that's actuallysuggested it's suggested.
(05:34):
I don't think wisconsin is likethe place to get curd but well,
we're gonna have some pushbackon that yeah, I think so.
I I might I like your cottagecheese idea.
I haven't had cottage cheese ina long time, all right.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Sounds great, all right.
Well, enjoy your cheese curdday, however you celebrate, and
if you're in Wisconsin, then youclearly could take a trip to
Wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Exactly Go crazy.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So this week on the podcast, we are very excited to
bring to you part one of ourconversation with Christopher
Danielson.
Christopher Danielson talkingwith Christopher was a delight.
Christopher Danielson, if youdon't know, is the instigator,
(06:33):
is the founder, is the primaryperson in charge and making
happen the Math on a Stick atthe Minnesota State Fair.
If you've never heard of it, Ihighly recommend you go look it
up.
The Math on a Stick is alarge-scale family math play
space at the Minnesota StateFair every year.
He also works on Public Math, anonprofit that supports
(06:55):
informal math experiences forfamilies in public spaces, and
so we'll talk about that.
And he's also an author ofthree books, which One Doesn't
Belong.
How Many and how Did you Count?
And you can find those anywherethat you can find books.
He started teaching in 1994 inthe St Paul Public Schools,
(07:18):
earned his PhD in MathematicalEducation from Michigan State
University in 2005, and hetaught at the college level for
10 years.
After that, he's worked atDesmos, he's worked at Amplify.
He now is doing his own thingand he is delightful in talking
about all things math, and Ialso happen to know from looking
(07:40):
at his bio that apples are hisfavorite fruit.
Enjoy part one of ourconversation with Christopher
Danielson.
All right, we're today withChristopher Danielson.
All right, we're here todaywith Christopher Danielson.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Yeah, thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Absolutely.
I tried to do a little bit ofbackground research on you and
there's a lot I mean, there'sjust different things there, a
lot of different projects andreally exciting stuff.
And we actually asked some ofour coworkers if you had
Christopher Danielson on podcastconversation, what would you
want to know?
And one of the questions was Iloved this question was what is
(08:16):
it like to play with math as ajob?
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Yeah, well, it turns out that any job has
administrative stuff that's gotto happen right In order to make
make room for the play.
So, yeah, my my current title isdirector of Math Play at an
organization called Math HappensFoundation.
We are a private operatingfoundation, which means that
we're not a grant-makingorganization, but instead we
(08:43):
have funding stream and our jobis to use that in order to
spread math love everywhere wecan.
So what's it like to have math,I mean?
But there is a certain amountof of playing that is that is
kind of necessary.
One of the things that's reallyinteresting is that when you
(09:04):
put for me.
Interesting for me is when youput materials out, whether it's
in like a situation wherechildren are going to play with
them, or, if we're talking aboutchildren, maybe you're going to
play with them.
We have it's almost like apersonality test, like people
have very different capacitiesfor imagining what children will
do, and it's not a thing.
I would have really thoughtthat there was expertise that I
(09:27):
would develop over time, but itabsolutely is a thing.
And just like as a teacherright, when you're a first year
teacher and you start makingteaching prompts or writing quiz
questions, you learn a lot inthose first few years about what
kinds of answers you're goingto get.
And it's exactly the same withmath play.
You develop instincts, you'rewrong about it, like as a 10th
(09:51):
year teacher, you're still goingto be wrong about it.
You're still going to write atest question and everybody's
going to vomit, or it's going tobe way easier than you thought
because there was, like thisbackdoor technique for solving
it and you wanted kids to do athing that nobody did.
And it's exactly the same withmath play Like we'll be wrong
sometimes you, you get better atit absolutely so what?
(10:12):
so what's it like to have?
So there is a certain amount ofhaving to get some materials
out and imagine myself assomebody who is known to these
materials, to think about how wemight play with them and how
somebody who isn't me might viewthese.
What, what might they findintimidating?
What might, what opportunitiesmight they find intimidating?
What opportunities might theyfind?
And that's super fun.
It's actually the thing that Ialso love the most about the
(10:35):
curriculum work.
So my background is as a middleschool teacher.
I taught middle school for sixyears Very, very long time ago,
and that was CMP, the ConnectedMath Project and got involved in
a bunch of professionaldevelopment work there, took a
tour through grad school, got myPhD, taught casual for a long
time and then was at Desmos andwhile I was at Desmos I was
(10:56):
leading the development of theactivities for the CC1, 2, and 3
series.
(11:28):
No-transcript can be a lot likethat.
Yeah, right, uh, but withoutthe standards.
Like it's so nice not have toargue with my colleagues about
you know, just so.
It mentions, you know, polygonsand fifth grade standard, but
it doesn't mention polygons.
And does that mean that wecan't talk like we don't have to
(11:49):
worry about any of that becausewe're designing for a much
broader audience?
If we're designing something wejust uh started collaborating
with, uh um, with an engineeringmuseum here in the twin cities
it's called the works we'll bethere with what we call a math
room, just bringing bunch ofmath play stuff into one of
their classrooms for open playevery other Saturday for the
(12:10):
foreseeable future and we don'tknow who's going to show up
there.
We don't know what the audienceis.
I've spent some time in themuseum, but not tons of time in
the museum, but certainly one ofthe units that shows up there
is families, and so lastSaturday, a couple days ago, was
the first time that we got intothat space.
Yeah, and there was a familythat came through Three children
(12:32):
, two adults and we hadsuccessfully found something for
each one of them to do,although there was about a
little bit more than one yearold, who played with a little
hexagon-shaped puzzle for abouta minute, but his favorite game
was clearly throwing one patternblock at a time onto the floor.
(12:52):
That was extremely good times.
Yes, we don't have standardsbecause we're designing for that
wide range, right?
We want to keep a 40-year-oldmom and dad occupied in the same
way for similar amounts of time, that we want to keep the
8-year-old and the two-year-oldoccupied, and so that's fun I
love.
For me, that is most exciting,much more than getting down to
(13:15):
the nitty gritty of oneparticular idea, one particular
way of factoring that has tohappen, like.
I get that.
That's all important in aparticular context, but being
able to let go of some of thoseconstraints.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
When you're in that space, how do you promote the
play?
So I'm envisioning there's notmaybe a task written there,
there's just an activity.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah, that is like there's a delicate balance there
between too open, so that somepeople get intimidated because
they don't even know what thepossibilities are.
They can't imagine thepossibilities.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
What am I supposed to do, yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Because I mean, play is also like a thing that you
can practice and get better at,just like I can get better at
anticipating what people aregoing to want to do.
There's also, especially as youget to teens and adults, there
can be like I don't even knowhow to engage with this, but
math also brings that out inpeople no-transcript pretty
(14:16):
useful, but it can also be atool that you overuse.
Is like with pattern blocksfilling frames, right.
So if we design an interestingset of frames that is compelling
on its own, but then also onceyou start getting into it, there
are lots of things that mightlike, ideas that might suggest
themselves as you play around.
We found that to be a reallyinteresting space.
(14:37):
My favorite example of that isfrom the large-scale math play
space that I've been working ontogether with my Minnesota
colleagues called Math on aStick.
That takes place in MinnesotaState Fair every year.
We just finished our ninth year.
We just give you.
It's a wooden frame that has aregular standard pattern blocks
(14:59):
have a one inch edge on them.
So we made a wooden frame thathas a whole cut out of it.
That's a two inch regularhexagon cut out of it, and
they're using 21st centurypattern blocks, which is a
little set that I designed andthat Dan Sinkle from Master
Loves is now has turned into awhole commercial product.
That is lovely, and the premisewas that we knew there were
lots of ways to fill thishexagon.
(15:20):
We're curious how many thereare.
Must be at least a hundredright Within.
So the stationery takes placefor 12 days.
We're there 11 hours a day,from nine in the morning to late
in the evening, for all 12 daysof the fair.
And by the second or third daywe had I don't know 150, 175
solutions, and each time youfound a new solution we would
take a picture of it with alittle modern Polaroid camera, a
(15:43):
little instant camera, and thenwe'd display them, and we had
space for about 100 of them.
But by the end of day two, likewe were, instead of each one
being like clothes pinned on, wehad them taped in these long
trains of snakes of photographs,and putting them away at night
was a very delicate operation.
All that, and by the end ofthat first, so by the end that
first year of collecting them,we had about 250 different
(16:05):
solutions for x-con challenge,with no evidence that we were
anywhere close to done and atthat point it was really fun to
see volunteers.
It's all volunteer runs, seevolunteers every day, like
having these conversations witha kid, because they would fill
it and then they'd walk over.
It was in the frame so theycould carry, fill it and then
they'd walk over.
It was in the frame so theycould carry the frame over and
they'd look at all the picturesthat we'd sort of tried to
organize a little bit and therewere some really productive
(16:26):
conversations about what does itmean for something to be new?
Right, and how do I like whatdo I look for?
Yeah, so some really productive, spontaneous conversations that
arose from this littlechallenge we had put out.
The next year we made a bookthat had them the ones we
collected the previous year,organized them, made a little
(16:47):
book of them and then startedtaking additional pictures.
We collected like anotherhundred pictures, but by the
time that second year was done,by that time we had like 350
solutions.
There were now so many of themthat it was almost tedious, day
after day, all day long, to belike our job was checking
whether they had new solutionsor not, and so we stopped
(17:10):
collecting them.
We made a beautiful poster ofthem, but we stopped collecting
them and instead we have now ahexagon, hexagonal shaped frame
that contains seven of thesmaller hexagons, and so the new
hexagon challenge is fill itseven different ways.
Have mom or dad take thepicture and then we have the
(17:31):
poster.
So if you think you know youwant to see if you found a new
one, awesome, go ahead, take alook.
And if you think you found anew one, you take the picture,
email, email it to us and we'lladd it to our ongoing collection
.
Yeah, so the that idea of framesis is a way of inviting people
in because there is a thing todo, but I also worry sometimes
that the frame has been suggeststhat there isn't something else
(17:53):
you can do.
Right, I'm supposed to put themin the frame and I'm not.
Also supposed, so we off atthat same table where we have
the hexagon challenge, in 21stcentury pattern box, we also put
out big 12 inch vinyl mirrorstaped together your basic mirror
book, but nice and big, so youcan really get your whole face
in there.
And yeah, kids will make fundesigns and they'll put their
hexagon challenges in there andtake a look at how many of them
(18:15):
hexagons they can spin around.
Yes, we try to have acombination of it's clear how
you might engage with these, butalso it's clear that there
might be other ways as well.
Delica Valens inadvertentlyperhaps.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I remember reading one of the things on one of your
posts around.
There's a fine line but asadults and how we interact with
kids in that space, that cansometimes deter or limit what
they're doing, also just becauseof our perhaps need to direct
or need to point something outand you found really interesting
.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Yeah, that comes to from like there are hazards
about labeling it math on astick.
Like, if you stand outside ofmath on a stick, we're outside
on a I don't know 50 by 100 footplot of land, like it's a
pretty big space, but we havethese two big popsicle sticks
with an archway between themthat says math on a stick, so
it's bright and colorful anddraws certain people in.
(19:19):
But also, if you stand outsidethere and listen in on
conversations, you'll definitelyhear math Hi, what I do, math.
You'll also get like some mathmajors from a local college who
all want to take their picturein front of math on a stick but
then they don't come in rightand play with the math.
We see all types, types andlabeling.
Math certainly has someconsequences, and one of them is
(19:41):
that parents have as a groupobviously not all parents, but
as a group on average parentshave this sense that math is a
right, wrong thing, that math iswhat happens in school, and so
there's both a danger and anopportunity there.
The danger is that, yes,parents are hovering over their
kids, saying now, wait a minute,we're supposed to be engaging
(20:03):
with it this way, or they'reasking a lot of schooly
questions.
And one thing that we find wewould love to have with kids in
ways that suggest a goal or thatsuggest connections to school.
(20:24):
The shorter the interactionsare and the more parents or
other adults engage in ways thattake up kids' ideas, regardless
of whether they're school-basedor not.
That tends to extend theconversation.
So we do have in our secondyear at Math on a Stick that
tends to extend the conversation.
So we do have in our secondyear at Math on a Stick.
We had a research team fromVanderbilt University that came
(20:46):
out and spent all 12 daysputting GoPro cameras on kids'
heads and doing pre andpost-interviews and collecting a
whole bunch of data and they'vewritten a couple of really
interesting research papers.
But we have this one.
They have this one justbeautiful video of this girl
who's like 11 years old andshe's sitting next to her mom
Mom's kind of on her phone andthe girl is playing with the
(21:07):
eggs.
So we have a bunch of plasticeggs and a five by six egg
carton, which is how eggs comein balls, and almost nobody
realizes that.
Everybody assumes, looking atit, that it's square and so it's
going to be six by six.
Every day you realize, oh wow,it's square and so it's going to
be six by six, which is everyday you realize.
Oh wow, it's five by six.
So she has it turned so thatit's six across and five high.
She's trying to make a and, inparticular, what she wants to do
is she's trying to get thepoint of the heart where the,
(21:29):
where the two lobes cometogether at the top.
She's trying to get that reallypointy while maintaining
symmetry within the frame, andshe just can't do it because, as
we know as math teachers, thereis no, there is no middle of
six.
Right, you got three on eitherside.
You don't have, you don't havethat one in the middle if you're
doing discrete math.
So you watch it and sherearranges it and every once in
a while she pokes her mom doesthis, does this look right?
(21:51):
Is this like art?
I model say something or pointout or something like this goes
on before like 10 minutes.
It's amazing and at some pointshe kind of pulls all the eggs
out and she rotates it 90degrees and then 15 seconds
later she's got a perfect heartvery satisfying shows her mom.
They have a little celebrationand away they go, like this
beautiful little moment wheremom was clearly playing a role
(22:15):
in this extended interaction,but the goal was very much the
kid's goal.
Like the kid wanted to makethis hard.
Mom didn't tell her to make aheart.
Mom wasn't telling her, no,that's a bad heart.
Like the kid was internalizingbut wanting to have that input
from somebody else about howsuccessful she was being.
So that was that kind of thingwe see, go on a lot.
I wish I could say thateverybody who picked up those
eggs spent 10 minutes on theirown goal-based idea, but it's
(22:38):
not true.
But so that danger is aroundlabeling it math and of having
parents feel like this should beschool math is that kids don't
get a chance to play because ofparents' anxieties or because of
their own anxieties, who thenget projected on the parents.
The opportunity, though, so youtwo are involved in math
education, so you've met newpeople, and when you meet
(23:00):
somebody new outside of the youknow world of NCTM or XETM, odds
are pretty good that somebody,if you meet 10 new people, odds
are pretty good that at leastone of them is going to tell you
about how much they hated mathor how bad they were at math, et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I've heard that so at math on astick.
We hear that too, but itusually comes out not as I was
(23:21):
always bad at math, but comesout in like a skeptical forms
how is this math?
But the opportunity there is.
We have their kid right infront of us like we could do
like a little.
Let me show you what your kid'sdoing right now and they can
see that their kid is having fun.
We can connect it to schoolmath without changing what the
(23:42):
child is doing.
If that parent came up to me asthe child was trying to make the
heart, I could have talked tothem all about grid and pixel
and problem solving within theseconstraints and we would have
had symmetry and we would havehad a great time.
And about the middle right andhow important that is when we're
studying data, that the mediansometimes is a number.
(24:06):
That's impossible because it'sbetween the two discrete values,
and so we can have thoseconversations in a way that it's
not about the parent'srelationship with math.
It's about what we can see thekid doing and how it is
productive and the kid is havinga good time and just bring some
some good vibes to that anxiousadult conversation I I can back
(24:27):
that up.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
and a few years ago with cpm we were we were in
minneapolis for a learning eventand so a few of us volunteered
at math on a street and Ibrought my daughter and my
daughter would have been one ofthose voices out of 10 that
would have said I'm not verygood at math and and samantha
was able to run a booth or oneof the events and afterwards got
(24:52):
so much out of watching kidsplay and their own play extended
to wow this, this is math.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
This is crazy how old was your daughter at the time?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Probably 22.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Okay, nice.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, so it was a lot of fun.
All these things we're talkingabout adults and the kids and
interacting here.
We had a case where somebodyhad a mindset that was way
different about math and leftwith a different mindset, so
that was really cool.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
I appreciate that.
We'd love to see that happen.
Thanks for coming out andhelping us make it happen.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
So I want a slight shift, a little pivot to.
I know one of your projects ispublic math, which is related to
these same ideas.
So one of our questions waswhat is public math ideas?
So one of our questions waswhat is public math?
Unfortunately, that is all wehave time for with our
(25:48):
conversation with ChristopherDanielson on this podcast.
Tune in in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People to hear part two ofour conversation with
Christopher Danielson.
Cheers, part two of ourconversation with Christopher
Danielson Cheers.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
So that is all we have time for on this episode of
the More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H.
It can be found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
(26:29):
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
It'll be October 29th , national Cat Day, and we'll
take a look at all the differentkinds of cats out there.
I've had my share of cats andI'll share the story when we
talk on the 29th.
But from my childhood toadulthood I do have a dog.
Now and I'm more of a dogperson, I will say this year
(26:53):
we've had a stray cat in thebackyard this year and I have
had much less squirrels and muchless mice and such running
around the yard.
So that's been, I think, a goodthing.
So I can't wait to tell you allmy tales.
Hear Misty's tales.
We'll see you on October 29th,thank you.
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach CPM educationalprogram Boom.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Here we are, october 15th 2024.
What is the national day today?
Joel?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, it's a good one ?
For me, I think yeah, it'sNational Cheese Curd Day.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Oh, I do like me some cheese curds.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Me too Nice.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yeah, when was the first time you ever had cheese
curds?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
So I would say, the first time I remember
experiencing cheese curds wasthe Minnesota State Fair.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
And since then anytime I get to the fair I eat
the cheese curds, morning, noonand night.
That was my first memory.
And then I got to Utah and theywere selling cheese curds but
they didn't have like corn, likefried, around them.
I was like, oh, they weren'tlike fried cheese curds, cheese
curds.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
What is this stuff?
Oh, so the first time you hadthem they were like cooked
cheese curds.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, they were delicious.
How about you?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
I remember it was sometime, probably like at
university or something, when Iwas in the Midwest.
We were traveling somewhere itmight have been like to the
Upper Peninsula or somewhere butthey had them and I had never
heard of such a thing and theywere quite delicious because
they were like fresh anddelicious.
And since then I got excitedbecause I saw them at grocery
stores.
(01:46):
Cheese curds they have mycheese curds here.
You can buy them here in thegrocery stores in Portland now.
But they're like vacuum pack.
And I mean they're not fresh,but they're like they've been
packaged and they're not thesame.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
They're not as delicious.
Exactly that's what I'm talkingabout the other worms.
Well, so a couple things aboutcheese curds, because I started
searching the history of thecheese curds and and the 1100s.
There is a celtic song thatmakes reference to the cheese
(02:23):
curd and it's like firstreference to a cheese curd and
the lyric is then I went in thedoor of it was hung beef, the
threshold was dry bread, cheesecurds on the wall.
That's.
That's the lyric.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Did they tell you the rest of this song or just that
obscure bit of out of contextlyrics they have all the lyrics.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, there's not like a recording it's clearly
metaphor the music.
Yeah, I'm actually on a sitecalled the quest for perfect
curds and on that site you cansee the true cheese curd history
.
There's links to the cheesytimes or the cheesy underground,
cheese Curds 101.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So if you're interested, quest for Perfect
Curds is what you're looking forthe whole cheese culture
Interesting, Interesting, yeahWell, I mean cheese curds
clearly have been around sincepeople started making cheese.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
And I remember one time working in the dairy I
(03:50):
think this was cheese, but tellme what you think.
I was the Sunday nightpasteurizer.
So I'd come in on Sunday nightsand I'd start everything up,
but on Saturday mornings, whenthe last pasteurizer left, we
always started the buttermilk.
So you start the buttermilk,you cook it and then, before you
(04:10):
leave you cool it, or thatpasteurizer had forgot to cool
it, so it just kept cooking fora day.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
So when I got there it had curded over like the lid
and there was a mountain of curdthe size of me that I had to
then shovel away.
That to me is like a cheesecurdds.
I mean, I suppose the firstcheese curds I ever actually had
were cottage cheese.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, there you go.
Those are curds If you're fromthe Midwest or you know of the
Midwest, high V cottage cheesewith some ruffles delicious, Wow
, okay.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Any kind of ruffles, or just regular ruffles, just
the regular ruffles, no flavor.
You don't want flavors in there.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
You just want that salty, rigid edge to dip into
your cottage cheese.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
I like large curd cottage cheese I'm going to have
cottage cheese.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Do you have a way you might celebrate today?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I might have some cottage cheese actually.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
I was going to think about it, it sounds delicious,
it does sound delicious.
I do like a cottage cheese.
Actually, I was not thinkingabout it.
It sounds delicious.
It does sound delicious.
I do like a cottage cheese, Ilike mine with a little pepper.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Oh, how are you going to celebrate?
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Well, the choices that are in my information say
that you could take pictures,and every time you take a
picture, say cheese, you couldtry and make some cheese curd on
your own.
I don't think I'll do thatcheese.
You could try and make somecheese curd on your own.
I don't think I'll do that.
Or you could go crazy and takea trip to wisconsin.
Wow, to me that's actuallysuggested it's suggested.
(05:34):
I don't think wisconsin is likethe place to get curd but well,
we're gonna have some pushbackon that yeah, I think so.
I I might I like your cottagecheese idea.
I haven't had cottage cheese ina long time, all right.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Sounds great, all right.
Well, enjoy your cheese curdday, however you celebrate, and
if you're in Wisconsin, then youclearly could take a trip to
Wisconsin.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Exactly Go crazy.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So this week on the podcast, we are very excited to
bring to you part one of ourconversation with Christopher
Danielson.
Christopher Danielson talkingwith Christopher was a delight.
Christopher Danielson, if youdon't know, is the instigator,
(06:33):
is the founder, is the primaryperson in charge and making
happen the Math on a Stick atthe Minnesota State Fair.
If you've never heard of it, Ihighly recommend you go look it
up.
The Math on a Stick is alarge-scale family math play
space at the Minnesota StateFair every year.
He also works on Public Math, anonprofit that supports
(06:55):
informal math experiences forfamilies in public spaces, and
so we'll talk about that.
And he's also an author ofthree books, which One Doesn't
Belong.
How Many and how Did you Count?
And you can find those anywherethat you can find books.
He started teaching in 1994 inthe St Paul Public Schools,
(07:18):
earned his PhD in MathematicalEducation from Michigan State
University in 2005, and hetaught at the college level for
10 years.
After that, he's worked atDesmos, he's worked at Amplify.
He now is doing his own thingand he is delightful in talking
about all things math, and Ialso happen to know from looking
(07:40):
at his bio that apples are hisfavorite fruit.
Enjoy part one of ourconversation with Christopher
Danielson.
All right, we're today withChristopher Danielson.
All right, we're here todaywith Christopher Danielson.
Thank you for coming on thepodcast.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Yeah, thanks for the invitation.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Absolutely.
I tried to do a little bit ofbackground research on you and
there's a lot I mean, there'sjust different things there, a
lot of different projects andreally exciting stuff.
And we actually asked some ofour coworkers if you had
Christopher Danielson on podcastconversation, what would you
want to know?
And one of the questions was Iloved this question was what is
(08:16):
it like to play with math as ajob?
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Yeah, well, it turns out that any job has
administrative stuff that's gotto happen right In order to make
make room for the play.
So, yeah, my my current title isdirector of Math Play at an
organization called Math HappensFoundation.
We are a private operatingfoundation, which means that
we're not a grant-makingorganization, but instead we
(08:43):
have funding stream and our jobis to use that in order to
spread math love everywhere wecan.
So what's it like to have math,I mean?
But there is a certain amountof of playing that is that is
kind of necessary.
One of the things that's reallyinteresting is that when you
(09:04):
put for me.
Interesting for me is when youput materials out, whether it's
in like a situation wherechildren are going to play with
them, or, if we're talking aboutchildren, maybe you're going to
play with them.
We have it's almost like apersonality test, like people
have very different capacitiesfor imagining what children will
do, and it's not a thing.
I would have really thoughtthat there was expertise that I
(09:27):
would develop over time, but itabsolutely is a thing.
And just like as a teacherright, when you're a first year
teacher and you start makingteaching prompts or writing quiz
questions, you learn a lot inthose first few years about what
kinds of answers you're goingto get.
And it's exactly the same withmath play.
You develop instincts, you'rewrong about it, like as a 10th
(09:51):
year teacher, you're still goingto be wrong about it.
You're still going to write atest question and everybody's
going to vomit, or it's going tobe way easier than you thought
because there was, like thisbackdoor technique for solving
it and you wanted kids to do athing that nobody did.
And it's exactly the same withmath play Like we'll be wrong
sometimes you, you get better atit absolutely so what?
(10:12):
so what's it like to have?
So there is a certain amount ofhaving to get some materials
out and imagine myself assomebody who is known to these
materials, to think about how wemight play with them and how
somebody who isn't me might viewthese.
What, what might they findintimidating?
What might, what opportunitiesmight they find intimidating?
What opportunities might theyfind?
And that's super fun.
It's actually the thing that Ialso love the most about the
(10:35):
curriculum work.
So my background is as a middleschool teacher.
I taught middle school for sixyears Very, very long time ago,
and that was CMP, the ConnectedMath Project and got involved in
a bunch of professionaldevelopment work there, took a
tour through grad school, got myPhD, taught casual for a long
time and then was at Desmos andwhile I was at Desmos I was
(10:56):
leading the development of theactivities for the CC1, 2, and 3
series.
(11:28):
No-transcript can be a lot likethat.
Yeah, right, uh, but withoutthe standards.
Like it's so nice not have toargue with my colleagues about
you know, just so.
It mentions, you know, polygonsand fifth grade standard, but
it doesn't mention polygons.
And does that mean that wecan't talk like we don't have to
(11:49):
worry about any of that becausewe're designing for a much
broader audience?
If we're designing something wejust uh started collaborating
with, uh um, with an engineeringmuseum here in the twin cities
it's called the works we'll bethere with what we call a math
room, just bringing bunch ofmath play stuff into one of
their classrooms for open playevery other Saturday for the
(12:10):
foreseeable future and we don'tknow who's going to show up
there.
We don't know what the audienceis.
I've spent some time in themuseum, but not tons of time in
the museum, but certainly one ofthe units that shows up there
is families, and so lastSaturday, a couple days ago, was
the first time that we got intothat space.
Yeah, and there was a familythat came through Three children
(12:32):
, two adults and we hadsuccessfully found something for
each one of them to do,although there was about a
little bit more than one yearold, who played with a little
hexagon-shaped puzzle for abouta minute, but his favorite game
was clearly throwing one patternblock at a time onto the floor.
(12:52):
That was extremely good times.
Yes, we don't have standardsbecause we're designing for that
wide range, right?
We want to keep a 40-year-oldmom and dad occupied in the same
way for similar amounts of time, that we want to keep the
8-year-old and the two-year-oldoccupied, and so that's fun I
love.
For me, that is most exciting,much more than getting down to
(13:15):
the nitty gritty of oneparticular idea, one particular
way of factoring that has tohappen, like.
I get that.
That's all important in aparticular context, but being
able to let go of some of thoseconstraints.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
When you're in that space, how do you promote the
play?
So I'm envisioning there's notmaybe a task written there,
there's just an activity.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
Yeah, that is like there's a delicate balance there
between too open, so that somepeople get intimidated because
they don't even know what thepossibilities are.
They can't imagine thepossibilities.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
What am I supposed to do, yeah?
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Because I mean, play is also like a thing that you
can practice and get better at,just like I can get better at
anticipating what people aregoing to want to do.
There's also, especially as youget to teens and adults, there
can be like I don't even knowhow to engage with this, but
math also brings that out inpeople no-transcript pretty
(14:16):
useful, but it can also be atool that you overuse.
Is like with pattern blocksfilling frames, right.
So if we design an interestingset of frames that is compelling
on its own, but then also onceyou start getting into it, there
are lots of things that mightlike, ideas that might suggest
themselves as you play around.
We found that to be a reallyinteresting space.
(14:37):
My favorite example of that isfrom the large-scale math play
space that I've been working ontogether with my Minnesota
colleagues called Math on aStick.
That takes place in MinnesotaState Fair every year.
We just finished our ninth year.
We just give you.
It's a wooden frame that has aregular standard pattern blocks
(14:59):
have a one inch edge on them.
So we made a wooden frame thathas a whole cut out of it.
That's a two inch regularhexagon cut out of it, and
they're using 21st centurypattern blocks, which is a
little set that I designed andthat Dan Sinkle from Master
Loves is now has turned into awhole commercial product.
That is lovely, and the premisewas that we knew there were
lots of ways to fill thishexagon.
(15:20):
We're curious how many thereare.
Must be at least a hundredright Within.
So the stationery takes placefor 12 days.
We're there 11 hours a day,from nine in the morning to late
in the evening, for all 12 daysof the fair.
And by the second or third daywe had I don't know 150, 175
solutions, and each time youfound a new solution we would
take a picture of it with alittle modern Polaroid camera, a
(15:43):
little instant camera, and thenwe'd display them, and we had
space for about 100 of them.
But by the end of day two, likewe were, instead of each one
being like clothes pinned on, wehad them taped in these long
trains of snakes of photographs,and putting them away at night
was a very delicate operation.
All that, and by the end ofthat first, so by the end that
first year of collecting them,we had about 250 different
(16:05):
solutions for x-con challenge,with no evidence that we were
anywhere close to done and atthat point it was really fun to
see volunteers.
It's all volunteer runs, seevolunteers every day, like
having these conversations witha kid, because they would fill
it and then they'd walk over.
It was in the frame so theycould carry, fill it and then
they'd walk over.
It was in the frame so theycould carry the frame over and
they'd look at all the picturesthat we'd sort of tried to
organize a little bit and therewere some really productive
(16:26):
conversations about what does itmean for something to be new?
Right, and how do I like whatdo I look for?
Yeah, so some really productive, spontaneous conversations that
arose from this littlechallenge we had put out.
The next year we made a bookthat had them the ones we
collected the previous year,organized them, made a little
(16:47):
book of them and then startedtaking additional pictures.
We collected like anotherhundred pictures, but by the
time that second year was done,by that time we had like 350
solutions.
There were now so many of themthat it was almost tedious, day
after day, all day long, to belike our job was checking
whether they had new solutionsor not, and so we stopped
(17:10):
collecting them.
We made a beautiful poster ofthem, but we stopped collecting
them and instead we have now ahexagon, hexagonal shaped frame
that contains seven of thesmaller hexagons, and so the new
hexagon challenge is fill itseven different ways.
Have mom or dad take thepicture and then we have the
(17:31):
poster.
So if you think you know youwant to see if you found a new
one, awesome, go ahead, take alook.
And if you think you found anew one, you take the picture,
email, email it to us and we'lladd it to our ongoing collection
.
Yeah, so the that idea of framesis is a way of inviting people
in because there is a thing todo, but I also worry sometimes
that the frame has been suggeststhat there isn't something else
(17:53):
you can do.
Right, I'm supposed to put themin the frame and I'm not.
Also supposed, so we off atthat same table where we have
the hexagon challenge, in 21stcentury pattern box, we also put
out big 12 inch vinyl mirrorstaped together your basic mirror
book, but nice and big, so youcan really get your whole face
in there.
And yeah, kids will make fundesigns and they'll put their
hexagon challenges in there andtake a look at how many of them
(18:15):
hexagons they can spin around.
Yes, we try to have acombination of it's clear how
you might engage with these, butalso it's clear that there
might be other ways as well.
Delica Valens inadvertentlyperhaps.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I remember reading one of the things on one of your
posts around.
There's a fine line but asadults and how we interact with
kids in that space, that cansometimes deter or limit what
they're doing, also just becauseof our perhaps need to direct
or need to point something outand you found really interesting
.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Yeah, that comes to from like there are hazards
about labeling it math on astick.
Like, if you stand outside ofmath on a stick, we're outside
on a I don't know 50 by 100 footplot of land, like it's a
pretty big space, but we havethese two big popsicle sticks
with an archway between themthat says math on a stick, so
it's bright and colorful anddraws certain people in.
(19:19):
But also, if you stand outsidethere and listen in on
conversations, you'll definitelyhear math Hi, what I do, math.
You'll also get like some mathmajors from a local college who
all want to take their picturein front of math on a stick but
then they don't come in rightand play with the math.
We see all types, types andlabeling.
Math certainly has someconsequences, and one of them is
(19:41):
that parents have as a groupobviously not all parents, but
as a group on average parentshave this sense that math is a
right, wrong thing, that math iswhat happens in school, and so
there's both a danger and anopportunity there.
The danger is that, yes,parents are hovering over their
kids, saying now, wait a minute,we're supposed to be engaging
(20:03):
with it this way, or they'reasking a lot of schooly
questions.
And one thing that we find wewould love to have with kids in
ways that suggest a goal or thatsuggest connections to school.
(20:24):
The shorter the interactionsare and the more parents or
other adults engage in ways thattake up kids' ideas, regardless
of whether they're school-basedor not.
That tends to extend theconversation.
So we do have in our secondyear at Math on a Stick that
tends to extend the conversation.
So we do have in our secondyear at Math on a Stick.
We had a research team fromVanderbilt University that came
(20:46):
out and spent all 12 daysputting GoPro cameras on kids'
heads and doing pre andpost-interviews and collecting a
whole bunch of data and they'vewritten a couple of really
interesting research papers.
But we have this one.
They have this one justbeautiful video of this girl
who's like 11 years old andshe's sitting next to her mom
Mom's kind of on her phone andthe girl is playing with the
(21:07):
eggs.
So we have a bunch of plasticeggs and a five by six egg
carton, which is how eggs comein balls, and almost nobody
realizes that.
Everybody assumes, looking atit, that it's square and so it's
going to be six by six.
Every day you realize, oh wow,it's square and so it's going to
be six by six, which is everyday you realize.
Oh wow, it's five by six.
So she has it turned so thatit's six across and five high.
She's trying to make a and, inparticular, what she wants to do
is she's trying to get thepoint of the heart where the,
(21:29):
where the two lobes cometogether at the top.
She's trying to get that reallypointy while maintaining
symmetry within the frame, andshe just can't do it because, as
we know as math teachers, thereis no, there is no middle of
six.
Right, you got three on eitherside.
You don't have, you don't havethat one in the middle if you're
doing discrete math.
So you watch it and sherearranges it and every once in
a while she pokes her mom doesthis, does this look right?
(21:51):
Is this like art?
I model say something or pointout or something like this goes
on before like 10 minutes.
It's amazing and at some pointshe kind of pulls all the eggs
out and she rotates it 90degrees and then 15 seconds
later she's got a perfect heartvery satisfying shows her mom.
They have a little celebrationand away they go, like this
beautiful little moment wheremom was clearly playing a role
(22:15):
in this extended interaction,but the goal was very much the
kid's goal.
Like the kid wanted to makethis hard.
Mom didn't tell her to make aheart.
Mom wasn't telling her, no,that's a bad heart.
Like the kid was internalizingbut wanting to have that input
from somebody else about howsuccessful she was being.
So that was that kind of thingwe see, go on a lot.
I wish I could say thateverybody who picked up those
eggs spent 10 minutes on theirown goal-based idea, but it's
(22:38):
not true.
But so that danger is aroundlabeling it math and of having
parents feel like this should beschool math is that kids don't
get a chance to play because ofparents' anxieties or because of
their own anxieties, who thenget projected on the parents.
The opportunity, though, so youtwo are involved in math
education, so you've met newpeople, and when you meet
(23:00):
somebody new outside of the youknow world of NCTM or XETM, odds
are pretty good that somebody,if you meet 10 new people, odds
are pretty good that at leastone of them is going to tell you
about how much they hated mathor how bad they were at math, et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
I've heard that so at math on astick.
We hear that too, but itusually comes out not as I was
(23:21):
always bad at math, but comesout in like a skeptical forms
how is this math?
But the opportunity there is.
We have their kid right infront of us like we could do
like a little.
Let me show you what your kid'sdoing right now and they can
see that their kid is having fun.
We can connect it to schoolmath without changing what the
(23:42):
child is doing.
If that parent came up to me asthe child was trying to make the
heart, I could have talked tothem all about grid and pixel
and problem solving within theseconstraints and we would have
had symmetry and we would havehad a great time.
And about the middle right andhow important that is when we're
studying data, that the mediansometimes is a number.
(24:06):
That's impossible because it'sbetween the two discrete values,
and so we can have thoseconversations in a way that it's
not about the parent'srelationship with math.
It's about what we can see thekid doing and how it is
productive and the kid is havinga good time and just bring some
some good vibes to that anxiousadult conversation I I can back
(24:27):
that up.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
and a few years ago with cpm we were we were in
minneapolis for a learning eventand so a few of us volunteered
at math on a street and Ibrought my daughter and my
daughter would have been one ofthose voices out of 10 that
would have said I'm not verygood at math and and samantha
was able to run a booth or oneof the events and afterwards got
(24:52):
so much out of watching kidsplay and their own play extended
to wow this, this is math.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
This is crazy how old was your daughter at the time?
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Probably 22.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Okay, nice.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, so it was a lot of fun.
All these things we're talkingabout adults and the kids and
interacting here.
We had a case where somebodyhad a mindset that was way
different about math and leftwith a different mindset, so
that was really cool.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
I appreciate that.
We'd love to see that happen.
Thanks for coming out andhelping us make it happen.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
So I want a slight shift, a little pivot to.
I know one of your projects ispublic math, which is related to
these same ideas.
So one of our questions waswhat is public math ideas?
So one of our questions waswhat is public math?
Unfortunately, that is all wehave time for with our
(25:48):
conversation with ChristopherDanielson on this podcast.
Tune in in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People to hear part two ofour conversation with
Christopher Danielson.
Cheers, part two of ourconversation with Christopher
Danielson Cheers.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
So that is all we have time for on this episode of
the More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H.
It can be found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
(26:29):
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
It'll be October 29th , national Cat Day, and we'll
take a look at all the differentkinds of cats out there.
I've had my share of cats andI'll share the story when we
talk on the 29th.
But from my childhood toadulthood I do have a dog.
Now and I'm more of a dogperson, I will say this year
(26:53):
we've had a stray cat in thebackyard this year and I have
had much less squirrels and muchless mice and such running
around the yard.
So that's been, I think, a goodthing.
So I can't wait to tell you allmy tales.
Hear Misty's tales.
We'll see you on October 29th,thank you.
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