November 12, 2024 • 33 mins
First! Early Bird Deadline for the 2025 CPM Teacher Conference ends soon! Prices go up on November 15, 2024 - so don't miss out and have to pay more - sign up now!
Ever wondered why anchovies are the perpetual outcasts of the pizza world? Join us as we celebrate National Pizza with the Works Except Anchovies Day with a lively discussion on pizza toppings. We boldly explore the sweet and spicy dance of pineapple and jalapeños, and ponder the sauce spectrum from classic marinara to zesty pesto. We'll tackle the eternal question of cheese quantity and share colorful pizza stories that are sure to leave you hungry for more.
This episode, we welcome back Dr. Peter Liljedahl, sharing his global adventures in building thinking classroom and his insights into lesson closure and student learning retention. We discuss the power of effective note-making strategies, using techniques like gallery walks and the teacher-scribe method to transform classroom dynamics. Learn about a groundbreaking four-quadrant template that's changing the game for student engagement.
If you'd like to hear our first conversation with Peter Liljedahl - tune into
Episode 2.17,
Episode 2.18, and
Episode 2.19.
To connect with Peter Liljedahl on X: @pgliljedahl
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach of CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram Boom.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hello, hello, hello.
It's Misty here and I have anannouncement, announcements,
announcements Before we getstarted with today's podcast.
So this podcast launches onNovember 12th and that means
that there are only two daysleft after today for you to
(00:52):
register for the 2025 CPMTeacher Conference.
At the early bird rates, youwill save $35 to $55, depending
on what you're registering forfor the main conference If you
register by the end of the day,november 14th.
(01:13):
On November 15th, the prices goup.
So if you are wanting to cometo the teacher conference and
you are wanting to save somemoney and of course you're
wanting to save some moneyplease go in and get yourself
registered by the end of thebusiness day on November 14th,
because those prices will go upand you don't want to miss out.
(01:34):
There's so many amazing thingsplanned for the teacher
conference.
You can sign up for the mainconference.
You can also add on apre-conference.
We have seven differentpre-conference options to choose
from, including buildingthinking classrooms, equity,
inclusion, coaching, leadership,multilingual learners and the
(01:56):
California math framework beincluded.
Please get signed up by the14th so that you can get the
early bird rates and not have topay more to come and see all of
your amazing teacher friendsand CPM professional learning
(02:16):
team members presenting at the2025 CPM Teacher Conference in
San Diego.
It's the last weekend ofFebruary.
We'll see you there.
Okay, here we are.
(02:43):
It is November 12th 2024.
What is the national day today?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Well, today is it's a mouthful, figuratively and
literally, national Pizza withthe Works Except Anchovies Day.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Wow, national Pizza with the works, except anchovies
.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
That's correct?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Oh, okay, that's interesting.
I know it's very curious thatthey.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
They've singled out one ingredient.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Okay, I'm going to have to say I've never had a
pizza with anchovies.
Uh-huh, I mean, I've hadanchovies, just not on pizza
Gotcha, and I don't think that Ijust walked into a pizza place
around here and said give me apizza with the works.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Anchovies would be one of those works.
Then anchovies would beincluded.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, Like, I feel like that would.
I'm not even sure that thatwould be included.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I mean I get some places.
It would be included for sure.
I think we have a place herethat includes clams even, and
anchovies.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh, clams and anchovies.
I bet there's On their pizzawith the works.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yes, with the whole kit and caboodle.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Okay, have you ever walked in anywhere and just said
give me the works?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
No, Me neither I never, have.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I kind of want to now .
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I know.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I don't know why, but I would have to like.
First I'd have to suss out thatthat wasn't going to give me
something I didn't want.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It is a phrase.
I've heard the phrase.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I have heard it too.
I'm not sure I've ever heard itin person.
I probably just heard it likeon TV shows or other people
saying it or something.
But yeah, the works.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
I feel like with the works applies more to like hot
dogs, like more to like hot dogs, like the condiments I guess
are like a hot dog with theworks are top toppings on a
pizza condiments.
Could you think of them as thatway?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, they're the toppings.
It's toppings on a hot dog,toppings on pizza yeah okay,
interesting, what's your, what'syour favorite pizza topping?
Then?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
well, it's what kind of changes in the mood.
I do like pineapple on my pizza, but I, when I do pineapple, I
do like a jalapeno.
I like the sweet with the spicysort of thing all right, but
lately my go-to has beenportobello mushroom calmada
ricotta cheese.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And that's it.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Well, and it comes with the red sauce and the Okay
and the yeah.
A basic pizza to me is themarinara and the I guess it's.
What kind of cheese is thatMozzarella?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Mozzarella cheese usually.
Yeah, yeah, oh.
So ricotta and mozzarellacheese.
Yes, got it.
I have learned that I preferpizzas that have either a pesto
sauce instead of the marinara,or like a oil and basil or some
other kind of like a sauceinstead of the marinara, because
(05:36):
marinara like, sometimes themarinara is really good and
sometimes I just don't like it.
There's too much Like I'm notinto a real saucy pizza See I
like a saucy pizza.
I like a saucy pizza.
I like cheesy pizza.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, there's a pizza here where I have to go.
I have to order it light on thecheese because otherwise it's
too much cheese for me.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I can't even understand how that's possible.
I mean to be too much cheesefor you does not seem possible.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Next time we're in Salt Lake, we're ordering the
Pie Pizzeria Excellent.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's coming.
Yeah, I'm fond of pizzas thathave two meats, and mushrooms
and black olives.
The two meats could bepepperonis and sausage, or ham
and sausage, or ground beef andpepperonis.
I mean that's flexible, but Ido like for both the olives.
Yeah, I like olives I'm.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I very rarely get meat on the pizza for teaching
yeah yeah, I could.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I could also go with a not meat pizza.
I got a pizza last weekend.
It had mushrooms and olives, Ithink, and then it had, but it
had artich.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And then like the pesto sauce or whatever.
And then I added on, likesausage or something like that.
That's cool, it's prettydelicious.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
We're getting close to this time of year and I think
you can only buy it at Kroger'sstores is what I saw.
But it's a DiGiorno pizza, soit's in the frozen section and
DiGiorno gave me no money to saythis.
I just want to make that clear.
But they sell a Thanksgivingpizza and so it comes with
(07:13):
turkey and stuffing andcranberry and all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Wow, on the pizza, does it have like the mashed
potatoes on it too?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I think it's got everything and I really want to
try one, but they sold out lastyear so I couldn't get one, so I
got to get it in a store andtry to get that, but it would
not have anchovies for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It definitely would not have anchovies.
It would be a different kind ofpizza with the works.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I give you a different set of works.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
They would not give you pizza with the Thanksgiving
works.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
That could be the menu.
Here's our works.
It could be the menu.
I hope there's no pie on it.
Here's our works.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
So for you to know, what you're getting into.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, because there's some things that you
wouldn't.
I just think you wouldn't wantto put all the toppings in any
kind of pizza place.
Yeah, who knows when I was inCalgary last week, they have a
really, really good pizza place.
It makes more, I would say,like wonky pizzas.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Because, like I asked them, I was like, oh, can I
change the sauce?
And then she said, oh, there'snot really a sauce on it because
it has the balsamic drizzle andthey have like balsamic drizzle
or they have like a honey overthere for cheese pizza yes so
good, very, very delicious.
There's a place in If you're inCalgary, go to Una.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
In Fort Collins, colorado, and honey is a
condiment on the table to put onthe crust or put on the oatmeal
.
For sure, it's so good yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
This was really good, because it was like they
drizzled it on while it wasstill baking.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
So it was kind of with the caramelized.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
It was really good, and the gluten-free pizza was
big enough to be two or threemeals for me, so it was awesome,
even better, even better, allright.
So how are you going tocelebrate today, joel?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I'm going to eat pizza.
I eat pizza quite often.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
That's the easy one.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
And actually I always keep a tin of something in the
cupboard and I know for a fact Igot a tin of sardines or
anchovies in the cupboard.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I don't know how sardine sounds closer.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, either I actually have both they Well,
either I actually have both.
And I got a can of anchovies.
I'll just put it on the pizza.
That'll be delicious.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So you're going to be a rebel in that way?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Celebrate the day, but create anchovies.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
It's very exclusive, except anchovies Boo.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
You don't like the exclusion.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, I want to celebrate with the anchovies In
your face.
I got it, except anchovies day.
How about you?
How are you guys doing?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I find it to be a good reason to have pizza.
So sure I'm going to join in ona pizza with a lot of stuff on
it.
Probably not the works per se,but a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Sounds good to me.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
All right, enjoy your pizza.
Enjoy, all right, we have avery special podcast for you
(10:00):
today.
It's going to be the first ofat least two parts of a
conversation that we have withDr Peter Lillidal.
If you don't know who Dr PeterLillidal is, then I'm going to
tell you right now.
He is a professor ofmathematics education at Simon
Fraser University in Vancouver,canada, and he has co-authored
(10:22):
and authored numerous books,book chapters and journal
articles on topics related toteaching and learning.
He's a former high schoolmathematics teacher and his
research is about how we cancreate thinking classrooms, how
we can get kids to be thinkingin the classroom, and his most
famous book, I think, isBuilding Thinking Classrooms,
(10:45):
which came out in 2020.
And he has put out a coupleother books since then.
The most recent one was inMarch of this year.
That is about mathematicaltasks for the thinking classroom
.
Focusing on it, he also doespresentations and workshops.
We happened to catch him in themiddle of his world tour this
(11:10):
year.
He was in Europe at the timeYou'll hear more about that and
we had a really lovelyconversation with Peter about
his work and about what he'sdoing and what is coming up and
all the various things that he'sbeen thinking about.
Peter will be at the CPM TeacherConference in February doing a
couple of workshops for us, soyou'll also get to hear about
(11:31):
that and if you happen to GooglePeter, you'll find that he has
an interesting past.
We also talked with Peter acouple years ago.
So if you want to go back andcheck on our first conversation
with Peter, there's a link forthat in the podcast description.
So here you go, part one of ourconversation with Dr Peter
Lillidal.
(11:51):
Cheers.
All right, so we're reallyexcited today to have Peter
Lillidal back with us again.
We had Peter two years ago onthe podcast, just about this
time.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, it's been a long time yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
It's been a while and we're excited to have him back
here today.
So welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Welcome.
I'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So, as we were getting started to record this,
you were telling us you've beentraveling all over the place.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
That's axiomatic with me by now.
So I'm currently in a placecalled Roskilde, which is about
half an hour outside ofCopenhagen.
Just got here today.
I've spent the last week at theother end of Denmark, in
Aalborg and Aalhus, doingworkshops with teachers, and I
(12:39):
got four days of workshops herebefore flying off to Amsterdam.
Wow, so I'm in Europe for fiveweeks during Building Thinking
Classroom Workshops.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
This is my European tour Effectful.
I'm in Europe for five weeksduring Building Thinking
Classroom Workshops.
This is my European tour, wow.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
This is my third European tour of the year.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Okay, oh my goodness, yeah, do you have a t-shirt
that checks off the cities.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
They say how many days a year do you spend at your
actual home?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
So last, year it was 30.
This year it should be.
It'll be less than that, it'llbe about 25.
My wife likes to say we visitour home, yeah, yeah.
So we'll come back from Europe,like the week and the week
before I was in Denmark, we werein Japan for eight days.
So we'll come back from Europein November, at some point at
(13:24):
the end of November and We'llhave 16 hours at home before
jetting off to Hawaii for threeweeks.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Is that vacation?
I hope.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
One of the weeks is vacation.
I'm doing a lot of classroomteaching there in.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
December.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
And then all our kids and so on are joining us there
for five days Wonderful.
Just to have sort of a family,a sort of family get together.
Our daughter just moved to NewZealand so she's going to join
us there, so it's a good it's agood middle ground for us to all
meet.
Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I did my some of my student teaching on Oahu.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Oh, you did which.
Which complex area.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
It was.
It was the Kamehameha schools.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So, nice.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, I love being in classrooms in Hawaii.
The diversity in those spacesis just amazing, and the kids in
Hawaii are the only ones whocan pronounce my last name.
Well, not the only ones, butthey're really good at it.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Wow, wow.
That's interesting In all ofthis traveling and doing the
work with building classrooms.
One of the things we wanted toget a little update from you on
what are some of your areas ofnew research.
But I'm wondering, like, how doyou have time to even do new
research, right?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Well, it's a little different than it was the
original 15 years of research.
Now it's much more.
I'm in the classroom, so muchright Like.
I've done 176 lessons in thelast two years K-12, all over
the world and so I get to go inon a regular basis and test new
ideas firsthand, and all of themare with groups of teachers
(15:02):
observing anywhere from 10 to 70teachers observing these
lessons and then they get to goaway and try these things and
then report back.
So it's, if anything, it'salmost easier to do that sort of
boots on the ground, rapidprototyping of things.
What I don't have time for isthe deep data collection on
(15:25):
certain things, but certainly ontrying stuff out.
It's really efficient thesedays, so yeah, so what have I
been working on?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
What are some things you've been implementing there
or trying?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
out.
Well, the big thing I've beenworking on since the Orange Book
came out was I've been reallyfocused on closing the lesson
right.
Those three practices thathappen at the end of the closing
of the lesson the consolidation, the meaningful notes and the
check your understandingquestions.
And for those of you who arereading along at home, that's
chapter 10, 11, and 7.
And just how important closingthe lesson is right, the
(16:04):
teachers who were implementingthose practices and implementing
them well were seeing betterperformance results from
students and just better sort ofconversion from collective
knowing and doing to individualknowing and doing.
The students had betterretention of content and stuff
like this.
Those practices are in theoriginal research.
(16:27):
Like we had statisticallyreally good improvements, but we
also had a lot of kids optingout, right, like there was a lot
of kids opting out of the notesand a lot of kids opting out of
the check your understandingquestions.
And you know kids make badchoices.
I don't know if you know that,but kids make bad choices
sometimes.
Yeah, they make choices thatare counter to their best
self-interest, right, right,like it's in their best interest
(16:50):
to sit down and create thesenotes and it's in their best
interest to sit down and dothese, check your understanding
questions.
But they don't always choosewisely and the fact that kids
make bad choices doesn'tactually absolve us of the
responsibility of doingresponsibility of doing so.
Ever since the orange book hasbeen out, I've been working
(17:11):
really hard at trying to findways to adjust those practices
in such a way that less kids optout and and that's what I've
been working on and we've andhaving huge success around that,
like getting close to 100participation now in meaningful
notes and check yourunderstanding questions just by
making a couple of significantchanges to the way we implement
(17:34):
those practices.
And they're all detailed in thegreen book that just came out
in March, so it's reallyrewarding and playing with that.
I'm still playing with that.
That's sort of a big thrust ofmy workshops now when I'm out
there doing a workshop.
That's one of the things Ireally lean into.
Five years ago my workshop washey, let me introduce you to
(17:57):
vertical surfaces or randomgroups Totally.
People kind of show up for aworkshop.
They kind of know that already.
So, now I lean much more intothat, the importance of closing
that lesson, because just howimportant it is and I think this
is true for everybody, itdoesn't matter if you're a BTZ
teacher or not how you close alesson is going to have an
(18:18):
impact on on how you convert allthat meaning making into
meaning made and retainedlearning.
Right it's.
It's becoming more and like.
To me it's becoming more andmore important.
I guess it's always beenimportant, but I mean, I'm
becoming clear on how importantit is.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah we've we've been talking in cpm, we've been
talking about lesson closure aslong as I've been working with
it right and and how to do itand how to find that time, and
that it's not me as the teacherstanding up at the board going
here's what you learned today.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
That's fair, because I can't give you my meaning
right, I have exactly, exactlythe best I can do is create a
meaning making space and thenhelp you organize structure and
formalize our all that thinkingyou've been doing and it's, we
dedicate a third of the lessonto it, like I think one of the
challenges that teachers oftenrun into is that they have a
(19:11):
lesson plan and then what's leftis the closing, and that's not
how we approach this anymore.
The way we approach this now isthe last third is the closing,
and we're going to closewhatever we got through close
whatever we got through Right sorather than being focused on.
we got to get through all ofthis stuff, and if that pushes
(19:31):
into the closing space, no, it's, that just means we got through
less stuff today, but it's thatclosing is vital.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Right, well, and that closing then makes the stuff
that you got through moremeaningful.
Yeah, right, then gettingthrough a little bit more, but
not having the closing, and thenhaving to start where you would
have left off if you'd havedone more closing in the first
place.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Right, because that's what we're finding.
If we don't close properly.
What happens is the kids walkout of the room and their ideas
just kind of float away Hoot,yeah, yep, and then they come
back the next day and it's likenope, we're going to start all
over again.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I was going to say how confusing for the kids, even
if you try and close the nextday.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Oh no, that doesn't work we learned that Every
lesson has to have a closingright, even if you didn't finish
everything you wanted to inthat lesson it still needs to
have a closing.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So, without giving away too much maybe, what are
some of the tweaks that you'vemade to get those students more
engaged?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
And I'm just curious Well, one of the big changes is
really differentiating the typesof consolidations that we do
right, and understanding that.
So in the Orange Book, I talkedabout two different or three
different types of closings.
Right, there is orconsolidation sorry, three
different types of consolidation.
So there was just aconversation.
(20:54):
There was what we callteacher-scribe, which is where
I'm going to put some newquestions on the board and
you're going to talk me throughit and I'm going to be the
scribe, so we're going to dothem together, and the third one
was a gallery walk.
And all of these things have alot of things in common, right
Like we work from the bottom up,in the sense that we're
starting with reallyfoundational ideas and then
(21:16):
entering into more complexterritory.
The kids are on their sheet thewhole time.
We do a lot of turn it, but oneof the things that we've really
learned is like when is each ofthese more appropriate than the
other?
So, when we have a divergenttask so a divergent task is a
task where I gave the task tothe students and every group did
(21:37):
it differently, so it divergedThen a gallery walk is best
because it allows us to look atthe different ways that students
solve the problem and to sortof mobilize that knowledge.
When we have a convergent task,meaning that every group kind of
did it the same way, then we dothe teacher-scribe move, and
again, that's not a lecture,it's kind of like a.
The same way, then we do thethe teacher scribe move, and
again, that's not a lecture,it's really.
(21:57):
It's kind of like a number talkon steroids, right, but it's,
it's really.
It's I'm writing what they'resaying, and that just works way
better.
Gallery walks do not work whenyou have a convergent task,
because it's boring.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, I've looked at it once now.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I've looked at it again yeah and you ask the kids,
what was this group thinking?
And they're like, duh, samething.
We were that I was thinking.
Yeah, Right, and the reality ismost of math is convergent,
right, Unless you're teaching aproblem-solving course.
Most of math is convergentBecause we want the kids to have
similar ways of thinking orroutines, and so on and so forth
(22:35):
.
When there is divergence, greatRight.
And we can't always predictthat there's going to be
convergence or divergence, Likethere's been lessons where I've
gone in I'm like this is goingto converge and then it's like
no it diverged and things likethat.
And it all depends on just howopen you leave them to pursue
the task and how much you wantthem to use certain routines and
(22:57):
so on.
But nonetheless that was one ofthe big shifts in consolidation
.
The big shift in note makingwas the new template.
There was two main shifts.
One is that they do it togetherat the whiteboard.
So it's no longer sit down andmake your own notes in your
notebook.
No, you're going to stay inyour group, you're going to make
them at the whiteboard.
(23:18):
And that was a game changer.
And then the other big shiftwas a template that we used,
which is a four quadranttemplate, three examples and a
things to remember, and that thefirst quadrant is a fill in the
blank and that just get and itit just allows for that
structure to to be in the blankand that just and it just allows
for that structure to be in thenotes, because I'm putting the
(23:39):
structure in, like I put thestructure in and they fill in
the structure and that makes itso accessible and approachable
to the kids.
And when we started doing that,we went from like 60 to 80% of
kids participating to 100%participating.
So that was a really big shiftand then, of course, we have to
think about that.
(23:59):
Takes care of the note making.
How do we then take care of thenote having, if that's
important and that's not hard?
Yeah, that was a big shift,really, and anyone who's seen it
in action is just blown away.
I remember the first time wetried it was May 2023.
And it was an Algebra 1 courseand I tried it and, like you
(24:24):
could just hear this, like inthe whole room there was about
30 observers, there was justthis, like all the there was
this sharp, intricate breathLike oh my goodness, there was
just like you could hear it indoing it.
And then every single studentgot involved and all of those
teachers went away and tried itas early as that day and it
worked just great.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I want to touch on one thing.
You just said the note makingversus the note having.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
How do you get teachers because this is
something I struggle withsometimes that teachers want
kids to have all these examples,all these working examples that
they can refer to, and they'realways having them make all
these notes to have?
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
How do you help people?
Let go of that and get intothat.
The note making is theimportant thing Right.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
So I have this really interesting graph, right?
So when teachers start talkingabout note habits, so do you
think kindergarten teachers carethat kids have notes?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Not usually, no, no not at all.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah Right, Do you think grade 12 teachers care
Absolutely 100% those APcalculus?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
teachers.
They care a lot.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
And that sort of creates the two endpoints of
this line.
Right, like the kindergartenteachers don't care at all, so
they're low down.
On the Y axis, the grade 12teachers care a lot, they're
high up, and now it's just thislinear relation between the two,
right?
So if you're a 3-4 teacher, youcare a bit more, if you're a
7-8, you care a bit more.
If you're a grade 11 teacher,you're getting a little
obsessive about it, right, right, and it and it just is his
(25:57):
natural progression and that'sthe line.
And and I think part of this isrecognizing that all not all
teachers care about this equallymuch.
Right, it depends on what youteach, but it's, it's this
linear progression.
Well, that's the graph forteachers.
What do you think the graph forstudents?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
correct.
I didn't get the flat line atabout one and a half it it did.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Right Don't care don't care, don't care, don't
care, don't care, don't care.
And then all of a sudden, inlike grade 11, they start caring
To me.
You're lucky.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Maybe yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
So that's the kid curve, right Like the teacher
curve.
Is this gentle slope?
The kid curve is flat line, andthen all of a sudden spikes at
the end.
What do you think the curve forparents looks like?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Oh, the curve for parents is like way at 98% the
entire way across.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah, they start caring way too early about kids
having notes, and then it's justcare a lot.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
And I understand why they do?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
because notes and homework are two really powerful
windows into the classroom.
Right Like, parents want toknow what goes on in the
classroom.
Notes and homework give thatinsight.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Without having to have that conversation where you
just get oh we did stuff Right,it was fine.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
So there is that sort of.
So we had these three curvesand if you put them on the same
graph, you start to realize that, okay, there's a difference
here.
But because of that obsessionat the high school, plus the
obsession of parents, we as apractice, as a profession, have
started obsessing around notehaving.
(27:32):
We start to do note taking,which is that sort of I'm going
to write on the board and thekids are going to write in their
notebook and I'm going to writeon the board, also known as I
call it, I write you right.
But it's also known as theslowest photocopier on the
planet and and it's a slow, it'sa photocopier that has tons of
attitude and makes a bunch ofmistakes, so much like my.
(27:53):
What I always say is if youreally care that the kids have
notes, put notes online, right,like.
Put notes online.
You'll save yourself a ton oftime.
The parents will love you, thenotes will be clear and they
won't have mistakes in them andthe kids probably won't look at
them, but if they've been away,they have access to it.
Put notes online, and I say thatwith all seriousness.
(28:15):
I think every teacher put notesonline and I say that with all
seriousness.
I think every teacher shouldput notes online.
It solves a lot of problems.
So there must be another reasonwhy we want students writing
notes, and the reason is that weknow, as teachers.
We know intuitively, innately,through our own experience, that
the act of writing helpsstudents learn, right, yeah,
(28:39):
except there's a caveat to that,and the caveat is that they
have to be cognitively present.
If they're just sitting theremindlessly copying what's on the
board, they are not gaining alot of benefit from it.
They have to be cognitivelypresent, which means that they
have to be making decisions.
They have to be cognitivelypresent, which means that they
have to be making decisions.
They have to be selecting andsequencing things to write.
(29:00):
They have to be note-makingrather than note-taking.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
So we can achieve both Doing the thinking.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, we can achieve both of these.
We can put notes online.
There's a note-having.
We can have the students makethe notes in these groups.
At the whiteboard there's anote making, and what that does,
especially with this fourquadrant structure, is it helps
the students organize, structureand formalize their thinking
right.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
It's helping us close that lesson.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
You're making me think a little bit too about as
a teacher, I didn't take notesto help me be a better teacher,
no.
And as a parent, I didn't takenotes to help me be a better
teacher, no.
And as a parent, I didn't takenotes to help me be a better
parent.
And when I got into past highschool, my teacher said the
notes are in the book, we'rejust going to work this out
together.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Yeah, and this was actually like very much like
early versions of flippedclassrooms, which was we want to
spend the time together doingthings that we can only do when
we're together and we want tospend the time when we're on our
own doing things that we can dowhen we're on our own right, we
don't need to write notes, likein many ways when I watch this
(30:11):
sort of I write, you write themessage that the, the teacher,
was sending and the kids werepicking up on because I was
interviewing these things.
It's like these people.
It's we're not going to do anywork right now, but these notes
are there in case I want to dosome work later on my own at
home without support.
So it's I think it's reallyreally important, right
(30:31):
Depending?
Like, if you believe notes areimportant, put them online.
If you believe notes areimportant, put them online.
But what we found is, for allstudents all the way down to
kindergarten, note making isimportant Because it's part of
that closing routine.
It's part of helping kids turnthe chaos of meeting making into
meeting making.
And the structure that weprovide helps them do that.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
So you have a new book out.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Well, you know what that means.
That's all we have time for onthis podcast, for a conversation
with Peter Lillodal, and you'llneed to tune in in two weeks,
on November 26th, if you want tohear part two and we know you
will because it's going to beamazing.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
See you soon.
Bye, so that is all we havetime for on this episode of the
More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H.
It can be found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
(31:40):
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
It'll be November 26th, good Grief Day, where we
celebrate the cartoon Peanutsand Charlie Brown.
It's that time of year wherethere's several Charlie Brown
and Peanuts movies out there,with the holidays and Halloween,
I believe and there's aThanksgiving and there's a
Christmas and there's all sortsof specials that'll be on the TV
(32:10):
.
But we're going to celebratePeanuts and Charlie Brown and,
as Charlie Brown often said, beyourself.
Nobody can say you're doing itwrong.
See you on November 26th, thankyou.
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach of CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram Boom.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hello, hello, hello.
It's Misty here and I have anannouncement, announcements,
announcements Before we getstarted with today's podcast.
So this podcast launches onNovember 12th and that means
that there are only two daysleft after today for you to
(00:52):
register for the 2025 CPMTeacher Conference.
At the early bird rates, youwill save $35 to $55, depending
on what you're registering forfor the main conference If you
register by the end of the day,november 14th.
(01:13):
On November 15th, the prices goup.
So if you are wanting to cometo the teacher conference and
you are wanting to save somemoney and of course you're
wanting to save some moneyplease go in and get yourself
registered by the end of thebusiness day on November 14th,
because those prices will go upand you don't want to miss out.
(01:34):
There's so many amazing thingsplanned for the teacher
conference.
You can sign up for the mainconference.
You can also add on apre-conference.
We have seven differentpre-conference options to choose
from, including buildingthinking classrooms, equity,
inclusion, coaching, leadership,multilingual learners and the
(01:56):
California math framework beincluded.
Please get signed up by the14th so that you can get the
early bird rates and not have topay more to come and see all of
your amazing teacher friendsand CPM professional learning
(02:16):
team members presenting at the2025 CPM Teacher Conference in
San Diego.
It's the last weekend ofFebruary.
We'll see you there.
Okay, here we are.
(02:43):
It is November 12th 2024.
What is the national day today?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Well, today is it's a mouthful, figuratively and
literally, national Pizza withthe Works Except Anchovies Day.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Wow, national Pizza with the works, except anchovies
.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
That's correct?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Oh, okay, that's interesting.
I know it's very curious thatthey.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
They've singled out one ingredient.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Okay, I'm going to have to say I've never had a
pizza with anchovies.
Uh-huh, I mean, I've hadanchovies, just not on pizza
Gotcha, and I don't think that Ijust walked into a pizza place
around here and said give me apizza with the works.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Anchovies would be one of those works.
Then anchovies would beincluded.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, Like, I feel like that would.
I'm not even sure that thatwould be included.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I mean I get some places.
It would be included for sure.
I think we have a place herethat includes clams even, and
anchovies.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Oh, clams and anchovies.
I bet there's On their pizzawith the works.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Yes, with the whole kit and caboodle.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Okay, have you ever walked in anywhere and just said
give me the works?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
No, Me neither I never, have.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I kind of want to now .
Speaker 1 (04:00):
I know.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I don't know why, but I would have to like.
First I'd have to suss out thatthat wasn't going to give me
something I didn't want.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
It is a phrase.
I've heard the phrase.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
I have heard it too.
I'm not sure I've ever heard itin person.
I probably just heard it likeon TV shows or other people
saying it or something.
But yeah, the works.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
I feel like with the works applies more to like hot
dogs, like more to like hot dogs, like the condiments I guess
are like a hot dog with theworks are top toppings on a
pizza condiments.
Could you think of them as thatway?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
yeah, I mean yeah, yeah, they're the toppings.
It's toppings on a hot dog,toppings on pizza yeah okay,
interesting, what's your, what'syour favorite pizza topping?
Then?
Speaker 1 (04:44):
well, it's what kind of changes in the mood.
I do like pineapple on my pizza, but I, when I do pineapple, I
do like a jalapeno.
I like the sweet with the spicysort of thing all right, but
lately my go-to has beenportobello mushroom calmada
ricotta cheese.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And that's it.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Well, and it comes with the red sauce and the Okay
and the yeah.
A basic pizza to me is themarinara and the I guess it's.
What kind of cheese is thatMozzarella?
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Mozzarella cheese usually.
Yeah, yeah, oh.
So ricotta and mozzarellacheese.
Yes, got it.
I have learned that I preferpizzas that have either a pesto
sauce instead of the marinara,or like a oil and basil or some
other kind of like a sauceinstead of the marinara, because
(05:36):
marinara like, sometimes themarinara is really good and
sometimes I just don't like it.
There's too much Like I'm notinto a real saucy pizza See I
like a saucy pizza.
I like a saucy pizza.
I like cheesy pizza.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah, there's a pizza here where I have to go.
I have to order it light on thecheese because otherwise it's
too much cheese for me.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
I can't even understand how that's possible.
I mean to be too much cheesefor you does not seem possible.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Next time we're in Salt Lake, we're ordering the
Pie Pizzeria Excellent.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
It's coming.
Yeah, I'm fond of pizzas thathave two meats, and mushrooms
and black olives.
The two meats could bepepperonis and sausage, or ham
and sausage, or ground beef andpepperonis.
I mean that's flexible, but Ido like for both the olives.
Yeah, I like olives I'm.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I very rarely get meat on the pizza for teaching
yeah yeah, I could.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I could also go with a not meat pizza.
I got a pizza last weekend.
It had mushrooms and olives, Ithink, and then it had, but it
had artich.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
And then like the pesto sauce or whatever.
And then I added on, likesausage or something like that.
That's cool, it's prettydelicious.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
We're getting close to this time of year and I think
you can only buy it at Kroger'sstores is what I saw.
But it's a DiGiorno pizza, soit's in the frozen section and
DiGiorno gave me no money to saythis.
I just want to make that clear.
But they sell a Thanksgivingpizza and so it comes with
(07:13):
turkey and stuffing andcranberry and all that stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Wow, on the pizza, does it have like the mashed
potatoes on it too?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I think it's got everything and I really want to
try one, but they sold out lastyear so I couldn't get one, so I
got to get it in a store andtry to get that, but it would
not have anchovies for sure.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It definitely would not have anchovies.
It would be a different kind ofpizza with the works.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
I give you a different set of works.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
They would not give you pizza with the Thanksgiving
works.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
That could be the menu.
Here's our works.
It could be the menu.
I hope there's no pie on it.
Here's our works.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
So for you to know, what you're getting into.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, because there's some things that you
wouldn't.
I just think you wouldn't wantto put all the toppings in any
kind of pizza place.
Yeah, who knows when I was inCalgary last week, they have a
really, really good pizza place.
It makes more, I would say,like wonky pizzas.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Because, like I asked them, I was like, oh, can I
change the sauce?
And then she said, oh, there'snot really a sauce on it because
it has the balsamic drizzle andthey have like balsamic drizzle
or they have like a honey overthere for cheese pizza yes so
good, very, very delicious.
There's a place in If you're inCalgary, go to Una.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
In Fort Collins, colorado, and honey is a
condiment on the table to put onthe crust or put on the oatmeal
.
For sure, it's so good yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
This was really good, because it was like they
drizzled it on while it wasstill baking.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
So it was kind of with the caramelized.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
It was really good, and the gluten-free pizza was
big enough to be two or threemeals for me, so it was awesome,
even better, even better, allright.
So how are you going tocelebrate today, joel?
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I'm going to eat pizza.
I eat pizza quite often.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
That's the easy one.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
And actually I always keep a tin of something in the
cupboard and I know for a fact Igot a tin of sardines or
anchovies in the cupboard.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
I don't know how sardine sounds closer.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Well, either I actually have both they Well,
either I actually have both.
And I got a can of anchovies.
I'll just put it on the pizza.
That'll be delicious.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
So you're going to be a rebel in that way?
Speaker 1 (09:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Celebrate the day, but create anchovies.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
It's very exclusive, except anchovies Boo.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
You don't like the exclusion.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Yeah, I want to celebrate with the anchovies In
your face.
I got it, except anchovies day.
How about you?
How are you guys doing?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I find it to be a good reason to have pizza.
So sure I'm going to join in ona pizza with a lot of stuff on
it.
Probably not the works per se,but a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Sounds good to me.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
All right, enjoy your pizza.
Enjoy, all right, we have avery special podcast for you
(10:00):
today.
It's going to be the first ofat least two parts of a
conversation that we have withDr Peter Lillidal.
If you don't know who Dr PeterLillidal is, then I'm going to
tell you right now.
He is a professor ofmathematics education at Simon
Fraser University in Vancouver,canada, and he has co-authored
(10:22):
and authored numerous books,book chapters and journal
articles on topics related toteaching and learning.
He's a former high schoolmathematics teacher and his
research is about how we cancreate thinking classrooms, how
we can get kids to be thinkingin the classroom, and his most
famous book, I think, isBuilding Thinking Classrooms,
(10:45):
which came out in 2020.
And he has put out a coupleother books since then.
The most recent one was inMarch of this year.
That is about mathematicaltasks for the thinking classroom
.
Focusing on it, he also doespresentations and workshops.
We happened to catch him in themiddle of his world tour this
(11:10):
year.
He was in Europe at the timeYou'll hear more about that and
we had a really lovelyconversation with Peter about
his work and about what he'sdoing and what is coming up and
all the various things that he'sbeen thinking about.
Peter will be at the CPM TeacherConference in February doing a
couple of workshops for us, soyou'll also get to hear about
(11:31):
that and if you happen to GooglePeter, you'll find that he has
an interesting past.
We also talked with Peter acouple years ago.
So if you want to go back andcheck on our first conversation
with Peter, there's a link forthat in the podcast description.
So here you go, part one of ourconversation with Dr Peter
Lillidal.
(11:51):
Cheers.
All right, so we're reallyexcited today to have Peter
Lillidal back with us again.
We had Peter two years ago onthe podcast, just about this
time.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, it's been a long time yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
It's been a while and we're excited to have him back
here today.
So welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Welcome.
I'm happy to be here.
Thanks for having me back.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So, as we were getting started to record this,
you were telling us you've beentraveling all over the place.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
That's axiomatic with me by now.
So I'm currently in a placecalled Roskilde, which is about
half an hour outside ofCopenhagen.
Just got here today.
I've spent the last week at theother end of Denmark, in
Aalborg and Aalhus, doingworkshops with teachers, and I
(12:39):
got four days of workshops herebefore flying off to Amsterdam.
Wow, so I'm in Europe for fiveweeks during Building Thinking
Classroom Workshops.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
This is my European tour Effectful.
I'm in Europe for five weeksduring Building Thinking
Classroom Workshops.
This is my European tour, wow.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
This is my third European tour of the year.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Okay, oh my goodness, yeah, do you have a t-shirt
that checks off the cities.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
They say how many days a year do you spend at your
actual home?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
So last, year it was 30.
This year it should be.
It'll be less than that, it'llbe about 25.
My wife likes to say we visitour home, yeah, yeah.
So we'll come back from Europe,like the week and the week
before I was in Denmark, we werein Japan for eight days.
So we'll come back from Europein November, at some point at
(13:24):
the end of November and We'llhave 16 hours at home before
jetting off to Hawaii for threeweeks.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Is that vacation?
I hope.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
One of the weeks is vacation.
I'm doing a lot of classroomteaching there in.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
December.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
And then all our kids and so on are joining us there
for five days Wonderful.
Just to have sort of a family,a sort of family get together.
Our daughter just moved to NewZealand so she's going to join
us there, so it's a good it's agood middle ground for us to all
meet.
Yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
I did my some of my student teaching on Oahu.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Oh, you did which.
Which complex area.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
It was.
It was the Kamehameha schools.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
So, nice.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
Yeah, I love being in classrooms in Hawaii.
The diversity in those spacesis just amazing, and the kids in
Hawaii are the only ones whocan pronounce my last name.
Well, not the only ones, butthey're really good at it.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Wow, wow.
That's interesting In all ofthis traveling and doing the
work with building classrooms.
One of the things we wanted toget a little update from you on
what are some of your areas ofnew research.
But I'm wondering, like, how doyou have time to even do new
research, right?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Well, it's a little different than it was the
original 15 years of research.
Now it's much more.
I'm in the classroom, so muchright Like.
I've done 176 lessons in thelast two years K-12, all over
the world and so I get to go inon a regular basis and test new
ideas firsthand, and all of themare with groups of teachers
(15:02):
observing anywhere from 10 to 70teachers observing these
lessons and then they get to goaway and try these things and
then report back.
So it's, if anything, it'salmost easier to do that sort of
boots on the ground, rapidprototyping of things.
What I don't have time for isthe deep data collection on
(15:25):
certain things, but certainly ontrying stuff out.
It's really efficient thesedays, so yeah, so what have I
been working on?
Speaker 2 (15:33):
What are some things you've been implementing there
or trying?
Speaker 3 (15:35):
out.
Well, the big thing I've beenworking on since the Orange Book
came out was I've been reallyfocused on closing the lesson
right.
Those three practices thathappen at the end of the closing
of the lesson the consolidation, the meaningful notes and the
check your understandingquestions.
And for those of you who arereading along at home, that's
chapter 10, 11, and 7.
And just how important closingthe lesson is right, the
(16:04):
teachers who were implementingthose practices and implementing
them well were seeing betterperformance results from
students and just better sort ofconversion from collective
knowing and doing to individualknowing and doing.
The students had betterretention of content and stuff
like this.
Those practices are in theoriginal research.
(16:27):
Like we had statisticallyreally good improvements, but we
also had a lot of kids optingout, right, like there was a lot
of kids opting out of the notesand a lot of kids opting out of
the check your understandingquestions.
And you know kids make badchoices.
I don't know if you know that,but kids make bad choices
sometimes.
Yeah, they make choices thatare counter to their best
self-interest, right, right,like it's in their best interest
(16:50):
to sit down and create thesenotes and it's in their best
interest to sit down and dothese, check your understanding
questions.
But they don't always choosewisely and the fact that kids
make bad choices doesn'tactually absolve us of the
responsibility of doingresponsibility of doing so.
Ever since the orange book hasbeen out, I've been working
(17:11):
really hard at trying to findways to adjust those practices
in such a way that less kids optout and and that's what I've
been working on and we've andhaving huge success around that,
like getting close to 100participation now in meaningful
notes and check yourunderstanding questions just by
making a couple of significantchanges to the way we implement
(17:34):
those practices.
And they're all detailed in thegreen book that just came out
in March, so it's reallyrewarding and playing with that.
I'm still playing with that.
That's sort of a big thrust ofmy workshops now when I'm out
there doing a workshop.
That's one of the things Ireally lean into.
Five years ago my workshop washey, let me introduce you to
(17:57):
vertical surfaces or randomgroups Totally.
People kind of show up for aworkshop.
They kind of know that already.
So, now I lean much more intothat, the importance of closing
that lesson, because just howimportant it is and I think this
is true for everybody, itdoesn't matter if you're a BTZ
teacher or not how you close alesson is going to have an
(18:18):
impact on on how you convert allthat meaning making into
meaning made and retainedlearning.
Right it's.
It's becoming more and like.
To me it's becoming more andmore important.
I guess it's always beenimportant, but I mean, I'm
becoming clear on how importantit is.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah we've we've been talking in cpm, we've been
talking about lesson closure aslong as I've been working with
it right and and how to do itand how to find that time, and
that it's not me as the teacherstanding up at the board going
here's what you learned today.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
That's fair, because I can't give you my meaning
right, I have exactly, exactlythe best I can do is create a
meaning making space and thenhelp you organize structure and
formalize our all that thinkingyou've been doing and it's, we
dedicate a third of the lessonto it, like I think one of the
challenges that teachers oftenrun into is that they have a
(19:11):
lesson plan and then what's leftis the closing, and that's not
how we approach this anymore.
The way we approach this now isthe last third is the closing,
and we're going to closewhatever we got through close
whatever we got through Right sorather than being focused on.
we got to get through all ofthis stuff, and if that pushes
(19:31):
into the closing space, no, it's, that just means we got through
less stuff today, but it's thatclosing is vital.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Right, well, and that closing then makes the stuff
that you got through moremeaningful.
Yeah, right, then gettingthrough a little bit more, but
not having the closing, and thenhaving to start where you would
have left off if you'd havedone more closing in the first
place.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Right, because that's what we're finding.
If we don't close properly.
What happens is the kids walkout of the room and their ideas
just kind of float away Hoot,yeah, yep, and then they come
back the next day and it's likenope, we're going to start all
over again.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
I was going to say how confusing for the kids, even
if you try and close the nextday.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Oh no, that doesn't work we learned that Every
lesson has to have a closingright, even if you didn't finish
everything you wanted to inthat lesson it still needs to
have a closing.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
So, without giving away too much maybe, what are
some of the tweaks that you'vemade to get those students more
engaged?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
And I'm just curious Well, one of the big changes is
really differentiating the typesof consolidations that we do
right, and understanding that.
So in the Orange Book, I talkedabout two different or three
different types of closings.
Right, there is orconsolidation sorry, three
different types of consolidation.
So there was just aconversation.
(20:54):
There was what we callteacher-scribe, which is where
I'm going to put some newquestions on the board and
you're going to talk me throughit and I'm going to be the
scribe, so we're going to dothem together, and the third one
was a gallery walk.
And all of these things have alot of things in common, right
Like we work from the bottom up,in the sense that we're
starting with reallyfoundational ideas and then
(21:16):
entering into more complexterritory.
The kids are on their sheet thewhole time.
We do a lot of turn it, but oneof the things that we've really
learned is like when is each ofthese more appropriate than the
other?
So, when we have a divergenttask so a divergent task is a
task where I gave the task tothe students and every group did
(21:37):
it differently, so it divergedThen a gallery walk is best
because it allows us to look atthe different ways that students
solve the problem and to sortof mobilize that knowledge.
When we have a convergent task,meaning that every group kind of
did it the same way, then we dothe teacher-scribe move, and
again, that's not a lecture,it's kind of like a.
The same way, then we do thethe teacher scribe move, and
again, that's not a lecture,it's really.
(21:57):
It's kind of like a number talkon steroids, right, but it's,
it's really.
It's I'm writing what they'resaying, and that just works way
better.
Gallery walks do not work whenyou have a convergent task,
because it's boring.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, I've looked at it once now.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I've looked at it again yeah and you ask the kids,
what was this group thinking?
And they're like, duh, samething.
We were that I was thinking.
Yeah, Right, and the reality ismost of math is convergent,
right, Unless you're teaching aproblem-solving course.
Most of math is convergentBecause we want the kids to have
similar ways of thinking orroutines, and so on and so forth
(22:35):
.
When there is divergence, greatRight.
And we can't always predictthat there's going to be
convergence or divergence, Likethere's been lessons where I've
gone in I'm like this is goingto converge and then it's like
no it diverged and things likethat.
And it all depends on just howopen you leave them to pursue
the task and how much you wantthem to use certain routines and
(22:57):
so on.
But nonetheless that was one ofthe big shifts in consolidation
.
The big shift in note makingwas the new template.
There was two main shifts.
One is that they do it togetherat the whiteboard.
So it's no longer sit down andmake your own notes in your
notebook.
No, you're going to stay inyour group, you're going to make
them at the whiteboard.
(23:18):
And that was a game changer.
And then the other big shiftwas a template that we used,
which is a four quadranttemplate, three examples and a
things to remember, and that thefirst quadrant is a fill in the
blank and that just get and itit just allows for that
structure to to be in the blankand that just and it just allows
for that structure to be in thenotes, because I'm putting the
(23:39):
structure in, like I put thestructure in and they fill in
the structure and that makes itso accessible and approachable
to the kids.
And when we started doing that,we went from like 60 to 80% of
kids participating to 100%participating.
So that was a really big shiftand then, of course, we have to
think about that.
(23:59):
Takes care of the note making.
How do we then take care of thenote having, if that's
important and that's not hard?
Yeah, that was a big shift,really, and anyone who's seen it
in action is just blown away.
I remember the first time wetried it was May 2023.
And it was an Algebra 1 courseand I tried it and, like you
(24:24):
could just hear this, like inthe whole room there was about
30 observers, there was justthis, like all the there was
this sharp, intricate breathLike oh my goodness, there was
just like you could hear it indoing it.
And then every single studentgot involved and all of those
teachers went away and tried itas early as that day and it
worked just great.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
I want to touch on one thing.
You just said the note makingversus the note having.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
How do you get teachers because this is
something I struggle withsometimes that teachers want
kids to have all these examples,all these working examples that
they can refer to, and they'realways having them make all
these notes to have?
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Right.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
How do you help people?
Let go of that and get intothat.
The note making is theimportant thing Right.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
So I have this really interesting graph, right?
So when teachers start talkingabout note habits, so do you
think kindergarten teachers carethat kids have notes?
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Not usually, no, no not at all.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah Right, Do you think grade 12 teachers care
Absolutely 100% those APcalculus?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
teachers.
They care a lot.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
And that sort of creates the two endpoints of
this line.
Right, like the kindergartenteachers don't care at all, so
they're low down.
On the Y axis, the grade 12teachers care a lot, they're
high up, and now it's just thislinear relation between the two,
right?
So if you're a 3-4 teacher, youcare a bit more, if you're a
7-8, you care a bit more.
If you're a grade 11 teacher,you're getting a little
obsessive about it, right, right, and it and it just is his
(25:57):
natural progression and that'sthe line.
And and I think part of this isrecognizing that all not all
teachers care about this equallymuch.
Right, it depends on what youteach, but it's, it's this
linear progression.
Well, that's the graph forteachers.
What do you think the graph forstudents?
Speaker 2 (26:11):
correct.
I didn't get the flat line atabout one and a half it it did.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
Right Don't care don't care, don't care, don't
care, don't care, don't care.
And then all of a sudden, inlike grade 11, they start caring
To me.
You're lucky.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Maybe yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
So that's the kid curve, right Like the teacher
curve.
Is this gentle slope?
The kid curve is flat line, andthen all of a sudden spikes at
the end.
What do you think the curve forparents looks like?
Speaker 2 (26:39):
Oh, the curve for parents is like way at 98% the
entire way across.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
Yeah, they start caring way too early about kids
having notes, and then it's justcare a lot.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
And I understand why they do?
Speaker 3 (26:51):
because notes and homework are two really powerful
windows into the classroom.
Right Like, parents want toknow what goes on in the
classroom.
Notes and homework give thatinsight.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Without having to have that conversation where you
just get oh we did stuff Right,it was fine.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
So there is that sort of.
So we had these three curvesand if you put them on the same
graph, you start to realize that, okay, there's a difference
here.
But because of that obsessionat the high school, plus the
obsession of parents, we as apractice, as a profession, have
started obsessing around notehaving.
(27:32):
We start to do note taking,which is that sort of I'm going
to write on the board and thekids are going to write in their
notebook and I'm going to writeon the board, also known as I
call it, I write you right.
But it's also known as theslowest photocopier on the
planet and and it's a slow, it'sa photocopier that has tons of
attitude and makes a bunch ofmistakes, so much like my.
(27:53):
What I always say is if youreally care that the kids have
notes, put notes online, right,like.
Put notes online.
You'll save yourself a ton oftime.
The parents will love you, thenotes will be clear and they
won't have mistakes in them andthe kids probably won't look at
them, but if they've been away,they have access to it.
Put notes online, and I say thatwith all seriousness.
(28:15):
I think every teacher put notesonline and I say that with all
seriousness.
I think every teacher shouldput notes online.
It solves a lot of problems.
So there must be another reasonwhy we want students writing
notes, and the reason is that weknow, as teachers.
We know intuitively, innately,through our own experience, that
the act of writing helpsstudents learn, right, yeah,
(28:39):
except there's a caveat to that,and the caveat is that they
have to be cognitively present.
If they're just sitting theremindlessly copying what's on the
board, they are not gaining alot of benefit from it.
They have to be cognitivelypresent, which means that they
have to be making decisions.
They have to be cognitivelypresent, which means that they
have to be making decisions.
They have to be selecting andsequencing things to write.
(29:00):
They have to be note-makingrather than note-taking.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
So we can achieve both Doing the thinking.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
Yeah, we can achieve both of these.
We can put notes online.
There's a note-having.
We can have the students makethe notes in these groups.
At the whiteboard there's anote making, and what that does,
especially with this fourquadrant structure, is it helps
the students organize, structureand formalize their thinking
right.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
It's helping us close that lesson.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
You're making me think a little bit too about as
a teacher, I didn't take notesto help me be a better teacher,
no.
And as a parent, I didn't takenotes to help me be a better
teacher, no.
And as a parent, I didn't takenotes to help me be a better
parent.
And when I got into past highschool, my teacher said the
notes are in the book, we'rejust going to work this out
together.
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Yeah, and this was actually like very much like
early versions of flippedclassrooms, which was we want to
spend the time together doingthings that we can only do when
we're together and we want tospend the time when we're on our
own doing things that we can dowhen we're on our own right, we
don't need to write notes, likein many ways when I watch this
(30:11):
sort of I write, you write themessage that the, the teacher,
was sending and the kids werepicking up on because I was
interviewing these things.
It's like these people.
It's we're not going to do anywork right now, but these notes
are there in case I want to dosome work later on my own at
home without support.
So it's I think it's reallyreally important, right
(30:31):
Depending?
Like, if you believe notes areimportant, put them online.
If you believe notes areimportant, put them online.
But what we found is, for allstudents all the way down to
kindergarten, note making isimportant Because it's part of
that closing routine.
It's part of helping kids turnthe chaos of meeting making into
meeting making.
And the structure that weprovide helps them do that.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
So you have a new book out.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Well, you know what that means.
That's all we have time for onthis podcast, for a conversation
with Peter Lillodal, and you'llneed to tune in in two weeks,
on November 26th, if you want tohear part two and we know you
will because it's going to beamazing.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
See you soon.
Bye, so that is all we havetime for on this episode of the
More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H.
It can be found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
(31:40):
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
It'll be November 26th, good Grief Day, where we
celebrate the cartoon Peanutsand Charlie Brown.
It's that time of year wherethere's several Charlie Brown
and Peanuts movies out there,with the holidays and Halloween,
I believe and there's aThanksgiving and there's a
Christmas and there's all sortsof specials that'll be on the TV
(32:10):
.
But we're going to celebratePeanuts and Charlie Brown and,
as Charlie Brown often said, beyourself.
Nobody can say you're doing itwrong.
See you on November 26th, thankyou.
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