November 26, 2024 • 23 mins
Get ready to relive the timeless warmth of Peanuts as we celebrate Good Grief Day! We share personal stories and fond memories from iconic Peanuts TV specials, discussing the often hapless yet charming Charlie Brown and his interactions with friends like Lucy and Snoopy.
Join us for part 2 of our conversation with Dr. Peter Liljedahl, who brings groundbreaking insights into Building Thinking Classrooms. Through the lens of his new book, explore innovative strategies like thin slicing tasks and their integration with CPM to foster student learning.
To connect with Dr Liljedahl on X: @pgliljedahl
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
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Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
I will dip you.
You are listening to the MoreMath for More People podcast.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram Boo.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Okay, so here we are.
It's November 26th.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Sure is.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
The National Day today Joel.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It is Good Grief Day.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Good Grease Day, good Grief.
Okay, what is it I need?
I need to?
Is that like a peanuts thing?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
it is.
It's uh named after the iconiccharlie brown catchphrase good
grief good grief.
I don't think anybody ever saidthat before charlie brown I
don't know if that's true or not, but I'm not, I'm okay, I don't
I think he he probably made itwork, james I think so too,
because I can see here thatcharles schultz, who came up
(01:11):
with peanuts, born inminneapolis, minnesota, shout
out oh, he was born in 1922,like I would think in 1922 good
grief could have been actually alot of people probably said it
back then.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
It does seem like something my grandparents would
say Good grief.
Exactly so.
Is it honoring Charlie Brown orhonoring his saying?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's honoring the franchise of Peanuts and Charlie
Brown, and especially it's thistime of year that the date is
celebrated, because this is thestart of all those TV Peanuts,
tv things like the Charlie BrownThanksgiving and Charlie Brown
Christmas and Charlie Brown.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And Charlie Brown Halloween, where he happened.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Well, that's true.
All right, I just looked at thedate for a second.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, but yes, all right, I just looked at the date
for a second.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, but yes, but the other charlie browns are
happening.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yes, they're happening, so it's the season
where that's gonna be prevalent.
Maybe, and folks so were or areyou a peanuts or charlie brown
fan?
Speaker 1 (02:23):
yes, and I remember it was in the comics.
I used to get the paper andread it in the comics.
I always liked Snoopy.
Of course I just said CharlesSchultz was born in Minnesota
and when they built the Mall ofAmerica in Minneapolis it was
big enough to have an amusementpark in the center of the mall
(02:45):
roller coasters, all the thingsand it was Snoopy land, so
everything was peanuts and stufflike that.
Very much so.
I'm a big fan and it alwaysmakes me laugh when Peppermint
Patty would lift up the football, when Charlie would go to kick
the football.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I was a Peppermint Patty fan for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I think Lucy thought Peppermint bar.
Oh yeah, I was a PeppermintPatty fan, for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I think Lucy thought Peppermint.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Patty oh Lucy.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Wait, that's not right.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, whoever the mean, that mean girl, yeah, no,
lucy.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, lucy, yeah, it was Lucy.
She always did that.
Yeah, I always felt bad forCharlie Brown.
I was like man always gets arock.
I was like man always gets arock.
He never gets any Valentinecards.
I always felt so sad for himand I felt so sad that he just
kept believing that Lucy wasgoing to let him kick the
football this time.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I think it's good he always is looking at trusting
folks, that they have goodintentions and they're going to
do the best and sometimes theydon't, and he keeps coming back
for more.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well, that was part of me.
This.
Okay, great.
Well, you don't have to keepgoing back to it, fair enough.
No, I I think that there wereparts I liked about the peanuts
I was.
I always felt bad for charliebrown.
I I felt like snoopy sometimeswas cool, but sometimes snoopy
was kind of a jerk to you inweird ways.
I don't know, maybe because hehad this big ego.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
He did have a big ego .
He was like you're cool.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So there was this part of him that was like he
didn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
The Red Baron, he was the pilot.
He had his buddy Woodstock.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yes, I liked Woodstock Well.
I don't even know whatWoodstock really did, but he was
a cool guy.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
There's lots of dancing.
I liked those.
I liked the piano music, likethat jazzy piano music.
I like when humans other thanthe kids would talk.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
That was always fun.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
You still laugh that there was times that that's what
Mike interred in the classroom.
Definitely, hello, I wasactually talking again.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
No, there's some good things.
It's classic.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It is.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I do wish that one of these times Charlie Brown just
like favored it.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Well, I would say, watch the films this year, and
perhaps it's been an updatedversion maybe, maybe, maybe,
maybe, maybe, maybe andskeptical okay I feel like
you're trying to put a footballout there for me, joel maybe I
didn't think about that.
Yes, maybe that's true.
(05:23):
Maybe that's true.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
All right.
So how are you going tocelebrate Good Grief Day, Joel?
Other recommendations on yoursource there Good grief.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I don't know how I'm going to celebrate, to be honest
, but you could read the Peanutscartoon, you could watch the
Peanuts films and TV specials,or you could wear your Peanuts
merchandise proudly.
Oh, what's that?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
No, it's not a good day.
Can't commercialize it, right?
Yes?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I do not have any peanuts merchandise per se, so I
have to maybe watch the showokay all right, how about?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
you, this might be one that I just stopped down on.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
That's one way to celebrate everything every day
doesn't have to be a celebration.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It could be I know you like to make it a
celebration.
I do, I do for sure I willcelebrate by just thinking about
charlie brown and wishing himhearing when he was straight I
like it, I like it, I like it Iyes I think that'd be good you
can on, we gohere, we go.
(06:31):
Well, hello everyone, we havethe second part of our
conversation with Dr PeterLillidall coming up for you.
If you missed part one, thenyou need to go back to the
(06:52):
episode that dropped on November12th and listen to part one and
then come back and listen topart two.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Enjoy, so you have a new book out, yeah, it talks
about all these things, yeahit's got all of it in there, and
the one I'm currently workingon the green book was K-5, and
the one I'm currently working onthe green book was a K-5, and
the one I'm working on right nowis a 6-12, and it'll have all
that new stuff in there too.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
That's great, got it.
What color is the new one goingto be?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
It's kind of a brick red oh wow, All right nice.
Nice.
So I already have the cover andit's also got some other things
in it.
It's got some really deep divesinto how to thin slice and of
course, it has lots of examplesof thin slice tasks.
But it's in part for the bookand I'm working on that right
now.
What are some things to thinkabout as we're trying to create
(07:44):
this sequence of tasks?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Well, that is an excellent segue into the next
thing I want to talk about.
Oh, okay, Because I think thisis one of the things that I know
as a PL team professionallearning team here at CPM we've
talked about or we've tried toget our minds around and I think
it comes up a lot when peopleare doing CPM and building
thinking classrooms is how doesthe thin slicing, how do those
(08:07):
two things, merge Right?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
And how do those two things merge, right Right.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, and how they overlap, and I think that
sometimes people see that andother times people really
struggle to see it.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
And it's interesting to me and I know this is the
thing that I know our boss,Sharon Rendon has talked with
you about and some people havetalked to you about, and I have
talked about it with lots of CPMteachers.
You can.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, with lots of CPM teachers.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Okay, and my advice is always the same, and I like
to think that you, I know Sharonand I have talked about this
multiple times.
It's, first of all, the CPMtasks are so great, right, like
every one of them is conduciveto building thinking classrooms.
But one of the things thatteachers struggle with is that
they're like I got to getthrough these.
We got to get through these sixtasks Right.
And what my advice always is islook okay, hold on, all right.
(08:56):
So, first of all, the first taskyou want to do is a great task.
The kids are going to work onit for like 10 minutes and
they're going to answer it.
And now have they masteredeverything in that task?
Like, typically not right.
And then they get get toquestion number two, which is
also a great task, but is verydifferent from task number one,
right, and.
(09:17):
And then are they going tomaster everything in task two?
No, and then they go to masstask three, which is also a
great task, but again verydifferent from test one and two.
And so what I'm finding when Iwork in classrooms where they're
using cpm that works reallywell, is that after task one, I
(09:38):
give them task 1.1.
Now, 1.1 is virtually the sameas task one.
Maybe I've moved the variable,maybe I've changed the the
numbers, maybe I've introduced anegative but it's, but in terms
of the task it's, it'svirtually the same, and it kind
of creates that redundancy wherethe kids get to okay, let's do
(09:59):
it again, let's think it throughagain.
And sometimes I even have to doa 1.2, right, maybe not for all
the groups but for a group.
And then it's you can, you canjust see it.
When they come out of thatthey're like okay, I got that
one figured out, like we'vereally nailed that one, and then
maybe we don't go to two, maybewe go to three or four and then
we do a 4.1.
(10:20):
And I think that teachers needto exercise their professional
autonomy in these situations touse CPM, which is an amazingly
rich resource, and I think thatevery teacher is going to have
to look at those six questionsand decide for themselves which
are the ones that need a 4.1 anda 4.2?
, which are the ones that don't.
(10:43):
And for which ones do we need tocreate redundancy and which
ones do we need to skip?
Because if we create theredundancy we don't have time to
do them all.
But I don't think there's everI hope there's never been a
textbook written where thetextbook authors are like, oh,
you've got to do it all, likeevery question.
I hope that's not it right Likea textbook is supposed to
(11:05):
support a teacher, not replace ateacher.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
100% 100% and not always all, when you don't have
the whole picture yet, right,how do you move through it?
Yeah, and how do you exerciseyour knowledge of your kid and
your professional judgment as ateacher and do all of those
pieces, right?
Speaker 4 (11:28):
And I always tell teachers don't go out and invent
a new task, Like.
The world doesn't need newtasks.
Right, Like the task you got infront of you, that's awesome.
Sometimes we have to featherour way into it, Sometimes we
have to fist slice our way outof it Right, but it's like the
task itself is really, reallygreat.
This is often how I do it, Liketeachers will say to me well,
(11:49):
this is a task I want to work ontoday.
I go that's a great task.
That'll be task number four.
Right, we need a one, two andthree.
That comes before that, becausethat's just too big of a jump
for the kids to step into.
Or I'll say, oh, that is agreat first task, but now
they're going to need a 1.1 anda 1.2 before we get to the next
(12:12):
one, Right?
So it's knowing the kids andknowing how they think and
recognizing that just becausethey've solved a question once
doesn't mean that they'vemastered everything about it.
Oh, never.
(12:38):
They're kind of chaotic andthey need to do things more than
once in order to really startto bring order to their thinking
.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Right.
So, as I understand it, at ourteacher conference, in February
you're going to do athin-slicing lesson from a CPM
lesson course.
Is that the deal?
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Yes, I am Thin slicing might be the wrong word
for it, but I'm going to startwith some core CPM tasks.
And I'm going to take peoplethrough how I would do it in a
classroom, and that could bethat we're going to thin slice
our way into it, or we might bethin slicing our way out of it
or we might be thin, slicing ourway out of it, or we might be
(13:21):
doing both, but it's like justsaying here's an amazing
resource, an amazing task.
How can we get it to meet thestudents where they're at Right?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Rather than trying to get the students to meet the
task where it's at 100% Awesome.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, 100% Awesome.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
We are too Absolutely.
I might need to enable my wayinto that session, but I think
you know people.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Yeah, I do.
I know people who like thathappen.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I can make it happen for sure.
Yeah, we're really excited thatyou're coming to the teacher
conference again.
Yeah, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
I always enjoy that conference.
I feel like that will be mythird time there.
I feel it's so.
One of the things that BuildingThinking Classrooms I think has
done for teachers is it's giventhem a common vocabulary which
allows them to talk to eachother about the same thing right
.
And I think that when you havesomething like a CPM conference,
it does the same thing right.
(14:18):
It's like people comingtogether.
They have a common experience,they have a common vocabulary,
they have a common resource.
It allows them the ability likeit gives them that opportunity
to talk to each other aboutthings that is on their minds
shared, like shared ideas.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, yeah, shared, like shared ideas, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
I think that's something I'dlove.
A teacher conference is thatit's.
It's, it's all.
It's all about tpm.
It's all about how people cando things better.
There's the shared language andit's teachers bringing in their
experiences and sharing themright and and having that
collaborative space.
(14:57):
It's not just CPM employeesputting on the we're doing you
know, but it's also the teachersin the classrooms.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
Yeah, it's not just pushing out ideas, that's right
it's sharing the co-action andthe co-construction of how we're
going to make this work in ourclassrooms to make this work in
our classrooms Absolutely Undershifting standards and
assessment criteria anddifferent pressures and
experiences and demographicsthat teachers work in.
(15:26):
Right, we're not all the same.
We don't all work in the samesetting, Even though we're all
using the same textbook we mayread.
It's all different.
Yeah, yeah, Our audience oureverybody.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, yeah.
What else can you tell us,peter, what else is going on for
you?
Anything else you want to share?
Speaker 4 (15:46):
what else is going on is?
I've been playing a lot latelywith just how how to lay out a
whiteboard board, like once.
There are certain tasks whereif you, if you create a bit of a
organizer on the whiteboard,you just see a massive shift in
(16:09):
how the students behave.
I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Algebra one, we're solving one and two step
equations, right.
So what do we always tell thekids?
Check your answer, okay.
Do they check their answer no.
You say did you check youranswer?
They say yes.
Or when we're doing rounding,we're rounding and estimating.
Did you round first and thenadd the rounded numbers?
(16:38):
Yeah, no, you didn't.
What you did was you added theactual question and then you
estimated.
So after you knew what theanswer was, right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Because I wanted to get a good estimate.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And they do this because it's a game that kids
play, right, part of it islaziness, most of it is
efficiency, most of it is, and alot of it is, an overestimation
of their abilities and so onand so forth.
But what if I lay out thewhiteboard and I take their
workspace and I divide it intothree and and there's different
(17:15):
ways to do that but I say, okay,in this square you're going to
actually solve the equation, inthis square you're going to put
the answer and in this squareyou're going to check your
answer.
In this square you're going toput the answer and in this
square you're going to checkyour answer.
And by laying out thewhiteboard like that, we see,
all of a sudden, 100% of thegroups are checking their answer
Because that's what goes inhere, it goes in that space,
(17:37):
sure, and it's amazing how justthose small changes shift their
behavior and so, playing withthat right, and how can I shape
the experience around the thingsthat I think are really
important mathematically, thatthey're glossing over.
And how can I get them to notgloss over that?
(18:01):
By just just by putting somelines on a board and saying this
is how I want you to lay outyour board and put these
headings in and get to work.
So I'm playing a lot with that.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, it's interesting because it feels
like it's a little bit of makingreally big shifts in classrooms
that defront the classroom,that allow more collaboration,
that move these things.
And then now it's sort ofcoming back to well, we need a
little bit of structure.
And what is the structure?
Without over-structuring it,right, without going back to the
teacher and saying this is howit has to be, and make sure you
(18:36):
box your answer and put the linedown the middle and blah, blah,
blah, blah.
Right, that over-structureswhat kids are now mimicking.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Right, it's not that.
It's not that, it's not that atall.
It's just about communicating,through my actions, what it is
that is important here.
I'll give you another example.
Right, I'm doing a task that'sgoing to require the kids to
look for a pattern, like notright away, but they're going to
have done.
After they've done like five orsix tasks, they're going to
(19:03):
have to start looking for apattern because I want them to
generalize but they keep erasingtheir work and it's so hard to
spot a pattern on things thathave disappeared.
Photos don't work, so it's now.
Let's divide the board and sayyou're going to do the first
question here, the second onehere, the third one here, and it
(19:25):
just forces them to preservetheir work In general when.
I say okay, now look for apattern.
All the work is there.
It could be inside of there, itcould be chaotic and messy and
whatever, because I'm not overlyprescribing that.
I just want them to preservetheir work and their answer so
that they can start looking fora pattern.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, it's the structure.
Like you're saying, thisstructure is focused toward yeah
, how, what are the things Iwant them to be paying attention
to, or that are important tothe thinking?
Yeah, as opposed to whatexactly?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
they're right, because they're driven to just
focus on the answer, right likethat's what they just want to
focus on the answer, and whatI'm trying to do is create room
for the process to, to bepreserved and sometimes to force
a process, not necessarilytelling you what process to do,
but I'm forcing you to leaveroom for checking the answer,
(20:18):
and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
And that's true outside of math, with teachers
too.
Like teachers want to have ananswer of how this works, yeah,
and not go through the process.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Yeah, we got to go through the process.
Yeah, yeah, but it's so.
I've been playing a lot withthat and again, I definitely
don't want to get into structurethat forces mimicking, but just
structure that helps, helps,leave room for things that are
important.
That I know.
I know that this is where Iwant to get them to by the end
(20:50):
of the lesson.
Right, this is important.
We got to get to this point andthey're not going to get there
if they keep doing what they'redoing.
So it's like how can I create abit of structure so that they
can start to notice thingsearlier in the activity?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well, thank you so much for coming on today.
It's been a wonderfulconversation.
We appreciate it.
We know it's late where you are, so we appreciate you staying
up and getting settled with usand then talking with us, and
please give your wife, charisse,our regards.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yes, please.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
We look forward to seeing you in February.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
We'll see you soon.
Yeah, waiting for it in SanDiego.
Yes, indeed, all right, thankyou so much, my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
So that is all we have time for on this episode of
the More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H and can be
found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
(22:05):
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
It'll be December 10th, nobel Prize Day, and
there's so many prizes given onthis day.
There's only six categories andpeace prizes in there somewhere
, and I'm so interested to learnand find out more see what
Misty has to know about it.
I don't think much about NobelPrizes, and so it'll be fun to
(22:29):
see what prizes have been givenand for what reasons, and to
enjoy this day and think aboutwhat others have done that
deserve a Nobel Prize.
So we'll see you on December10th.
Hope to see you there, thankyou.
I will dip you.
You are listening to the MoreMath for More People podcast.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram Boo.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Okay, so here we are.
It's November 26th.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Sure is.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
The National Day today Joel.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
It is Good Grief Day.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Good Grease Day, good Grief.
Okay, what is it I need?
I need to?
Is that like a peanuts thing?
Speaker 1 (00:48):
it is.
It's uh named after the iconiccharlie brown catchphrase good
grief good grief.
I don't think anybody ever saidthat before charlie brown I
don't know if that's true or not, but I'm not, I'm okay, I don't
I think he he probably made itwork, james I think so too,
because I can see here thatcharles schultz, who came up
(01:11):
with peanuts, born inminneapolis, minnesota, shout
out oh, he was born in 1922,like I would think in 1922 good
grief could have been actually alot of people probably said it
back then.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
It does seem like something my grandparents would
say Good grief.
Exactly so.
Is it honoring Charlie Brown orhonoring his saying?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's honoring the franchise of Peanuts and Charlie
Brown, and especially it's thistime of year that the date is
celebrated, because this is thestart of all those TV Peanuts,
tv things like the Charlie BrownThanksgiving and Charlie Brown
Christmas and Charlie Brown.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
And Charlie Brown Halloween, where he happened.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Well, that's true.
All right, I just looked at thedate for a second.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, but yes, all right, I just looked at the date
for a second.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Yeah, but yes, but the other charlie browns are
happening.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yes, they're happening, so it's the season
where that's gonna be prevalent.
Maybe, and folks so were or areyou a peanuts or charlie brown
fan?
Speaker 1 (02:23):
yes, and I remember it was in the comics.
I used to get the paper andread it in the comics.
I always liked Snoopy.
Of course I just said CharlesSchultz was born in Minnesota
and when they built the Mall ofAmerica in Minneapolis it was
big enough to have an amusementpark in the center of the mall
(02:45):
roller coasters, all the thingsand it was Snoopy land, so
everything was peanuts and stufflike that.
Very much so.
I'm a big fan and it alwaysmakes me laugh when Peppermint
Patty would lift up the football, when Charlie would go to kick
the football.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I was a Peppermint Patty fan for sure.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I think Lucy thought Peppermint bar.
Oh yeah, I was a PeppermintPatty fan, for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
I think Lucy thought Peppermint.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Patty oh Lucy.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Wait, that's not right.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, whoever the mean, that mean girl, yeah, no,
lucy.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, lucy, yeah, it was Lucy.
She always did that.
Yeah, I always felt bad forCharlie Brown.
I was like man always gets arock.
I was like man always gets arock.
He never gets any Valentinecards.
I always felt so sad for himand I felt so sad that he just
kept believing that Lucy wasgoing to let him kick the
football this time.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I think it's good he always is looking at trusting
folks, that they have goodintentions and they're going to
do the best and sometimes theydon't, and he keeps coming back
for more.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well, that was part of me.
This.
Okay, great.
Well, you don't have to keepgoing back to it, fair enough.
No, I I think that there wereparts I liked about the peanuts
I was.
I always felt bad for charliebrown.
I I felt like snoopy sometimeswas cool, but sometimes snoopy
was kind of a jerk to you inweird ways.
I don't know, maybe because hehad this big ego.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
He did have a big ego .
He was like you're cool.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
So there was this part of him that was like he
didn't make sense to me.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
The Red Baron, he was the pilot.
He had his buddy Woodstock.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Yes, I liked Woodstock Well.
I don't even know whatWoodstock really did, but he was
a cool guy.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
There's lots of dancing.
I liked those.
I liked the piano music, likethat jazzy piano music.
I like when humans other thanthe kids would talk.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
That was always fun.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
You still laugh that there was times that that's what
Mike interred in the classroom.
Definitely, hello, I wasactually talking again.
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
No, there's some good things.
It's classic.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
It is.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
I do wish that one of these times Charlie Brown just
like favored it.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Well, I would say, watch the films this year, and
perhaps it's been an updatedversion maybe, maybe, maybe,
maybe, maybe, maybe andskeptical okay I feel like
you're trying to put a footballout there for me, joel maybe I
didn't think about that.
Yes, maybe that's true.
(05:23):
Maybe that's true.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
All right.
So how are you going tocelebrate Good Grief Day, Joel?
Other recommendations on yoursource there Good grief.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
I don't know how I'm going to celebrate, to be honest
, but you could read the Peanutscartoon, you could watch the
Peanuts films and TV specials,or you could wear your Peanuts
merchandise proudly.
Oh, what's that?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
No, it's not a good day.
Can't commercialize it, right?
Yes?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
I do not have any peanuts merchandise per se, so I
have to maybe watch the showokay all right, how about?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
you, this might be one that I just stopped down on.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
That's one way to celebrate everything every day
doesn't have to be a celebration.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
It could be I know you like to make it a
celebration.
I do, I do for sure I willcelebrate by just thinking about
charlie brown and wishing himhearing when he was straight I
like it, I like it, I like it Iyes I think that'd be good you
can on, we gohere, we go.
(06:31):
Well, hello everyone, we havethe second part of our
conversation with Dr PeterLillidall coming up for you.
If you missed part one, thenyou need to go back to the
(06:52):
episode that dropped on November12th and listen to part one and
then come back and listen topart two.
Speaker 4 (06:59):
Enjoy, so you have a new book out, yeah, it talks
about all these things, yeahit's got all of it in there, and
the one I'm currently workingon the green book was K-5, and
the one I'm currently working onthe green book was a K-5, and
the one I'm working on right nowis a 6-12, and it'll have all
that new stuff in there too.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
That's great, got it.
What color is the new one goingto be?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
It's kind of a brick red oh wow, All right nice.
Nice.
So I already have the cover andit's also got some other things
in it.
It's got some really deep divesinto how to thin slice and of
course, it has lots of examplesof thin slice tasks.
But it's in part for the bookand I'm working on that right
now.
What are some things to thinkabout as we're trying to create
(07:44):
this sequence of tasks?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Well, that is an excellent segue into the next
thing I want to talk about.
Oh, okay, Because I think thisis one of the things that I know
as a PL team professionallearning team here at CPM we've
talked about or we've tried toget our minds around and I think
it comes up a lot when peopleare doing CPM and building
thinking classrooms is how doesthe thin slicing, how do those
(08:07):
two things, merge Right?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
And how do those two things merge, right Right.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Yeah, and how they overlap, and I think that
sometimes people see that andother times people really
struggle to see it.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
And it's interesting to me and I know this is the
thing that I know our boss,Sharon Rendon has talked with
you about and some people havetalked to you about, and I have
talked about it with lots of CPMteachers.
You can.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, with lots of CPM teachers.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Okay, and my advice is always the same, and I like
to think that you, I know Sharonand I have talked about this
multiple times.
It's, first of all, the CPMtasks are so great, right, like
every one of them is conduciveto building thinking classrooms.
But one of the things thatteachers struggle with is that
they're like I got to getthrough these.
We got to get through these sixtasks Right.
And what my advice always is islook okay, hold on, all right.
(08:56):
So, first of all, the first taskyou want to do is a great task.
The kids are going to work onit for like 10 minutes and
they're going to answer it.
And now have they masteredeverything in that task?
Like, typically not right.
And then they get get toquestion number two, which is
also a great task, but is verydifferent from task number one,
right, and.
(09:17):
And then are they going tomaster everything in task two?
No, and then they go to masstask three, which is also a
great task, but again verydifferent from test one and two.
And so what I'm finding when Iwork in classrooms where they're
using cpm that works reallywell, is that after task one, I
(09:38):
give them task 1.1.
Now, 1.1 is virtually the sameas task one.
Maybe I've moved the variable,maybe I've changed the the
numbers, maybe I've introduced anegative but it's, but in terms
of the task it's, it'svirtually the same, and it kind
of creates that redundancy wherethe kids get to okay, let's do
(09:59):
it again, let's think it throughagain.
And sometimes I even have to doa 1.2, right, maybe not for all
the groups but for a group.
And then it's you can, you canjust see it.
When they come out of thatthey're like okay, I got that
one figured out, like we'vereally nailed that one, and then
maybe we don't go to two, maybewe go to three or four and then
we do a 4.1.
(10:20):
And I think that teachers needto exercise their professional
autonomy in these situations touse CPM, which is an amazingly
rich resource, and I think thatevery teacher is going to have
to look at those six questionsand decide for themselves which
are the ones that need a 4.1 anda 4.2?
, which are the ones that don't.
(10:43):
And for which ones do we need tocreate redundancy and which
ones do we need to skip?
Because if we create theredundancy we don't have time to
do them all.
But I don't think there's everI hope there's never been a
textbook written where thetextbook authors are like, oh,
you've got to do it all, likeevery question.
I hope that's not it right Likea textbook is supposed to
(11:05):
support a teacher, not replace ateacher.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
100% 100% and not always all, when you don't have
the whole picture yet, right,how do you move through it?
Yeah, and how do you exerciseyour knowledge of your kid and
your professional judgment as ateacher and do all of those
pieces, right?
Speaker 4 (11:28):
And I always tell teachers don't go out and invent
a new task, Like.
The world doesn't need newtasks.
Right, Like the task you got infront of you, that's awesome.
Sometimes we have to featherour way into it, Sometimes we
have to fist slice our way outof it Right, but it's like the
task itself is really, reallygreat.
This is often how I do it, Liketeachers will say to me well,
(11:49):
this is a task I want to work ontoday.
I go that's a great task.
That'll be task number four.
Right, we need a one, two andthree.
That comes before that, becausethat's just too big of a jump
for the kids to step into.
Or I'll say, oh, that is agreat first task, but now
they're going to need a 1.1 anda 1.2 before we get to the next
(12:12):
one, Right?
So it's knowing the kids andknowing how they think and
recognizing that just becausethey've solved a question once
doesn't mean that they'vemastered everything about it.
Oh, never.
(12:38):
They're kind of chaotic andthey need to do things more than
once in order to really startto bring order to their thinking
.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Right.
So, as I understand it, at ourteacher conference, in February
you're going to do athin-slicing lesson from a CPM
lesson course.
Is that the deal?
Speaker 4 (12:59):
Yes, I am Thin slicing might be the wrong word
for it, but I'm going to startwith some core CPM tasks.
And I'm going to take peoplethrough how I would do it in a
classroom, and that could bethat we're going to thin slice
our way into it, or we might bethin slicing our way out of it
or we might be thin, slicing ourway out of it, or we might be
(13:21):
doing both, but it's like justsaying here's an amazing
resource, an amazing task.
How can we get it to meet thestudents where they're at Right?
Speaker 2 (13:36):
Rather than trying to get the students to meet the
task where it's at 100% Awesome.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it, 100% Awesome.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.
We are too Absolutely.
I might need to enable my wayinto that session, but I think
you know people.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
Yeah, I do.
I know people who like thathappen.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
I can make it happen for sure.
Yeah, we're really excited thatyou're coming to the teacher
conference again.
Yeah, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
I always enjoy that conference.
I feel like that will be mythird time there.
I feel it's so.
One of the things that BuildingThinking Classrooms I think has
done for teachers is it's giventhem a common vocabulary which
allows them to talk to eachother about the same thing right
.
And I think that when you havesomething like a CPM conference,
it does the same thing right.
(14:18):
It's like people comingtogether.
They have a common experience,they have a common vocabulary,
they have a common resource.
It allows them the ability likeit gives them that opportunity
to talk to each other aboutthings that is on their minds
shared, like shared ideas.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, yeah, shared, like shared ideas, yeah, yeah,
yeah.
I think that's something I'dlove.
A teacher conference is thatit's.
It's, it's all.
It's all about tpm.
It's all about how people cando things better.
There's the shared language andit's teachers bringing in their
experiences and sharing themright and and having that
collaborative space.
(14:57):
It's not just CPM employeesputting on the we're doing you
know, but it's also the teachersin the classrooms.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
Yeah, it's not just pushing out ideas, that's right
it's sharing the co-action andthe co-construction of how we're
going to make this work in ourclassrooms to make this work in
our classrooms Absolutely Undershifting standards and
assessment criteria anddifferent pressures and
experiences and demographicsthat teachers work in.
(15:26):
Right, we're not all the same.
We don't all work in the samesetting, Even though we're all
using the same textbook we mayread.
It's all different.
Yeah, yeah, Our audience oureverybody.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, yeah.
What else can you tell us,peter, what else is going on for
you?
Anything else you want to share?
Speaker 4 (15:46):
what else is going on is?
I've been playing a lot latelywith just how how to lay out a
whiteboard board, like once.
There are certain tasks whereif you, if you create a bit of a
organizer on the whiteboard,you just see a massive shift in
(16:09):
how the students behave.
I'll give you an example.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
Algebra one, we're solving one and two step
equations, right.
So what do we always tell thekids?
Check your answer, okay.
Do they check their answer no.
You say did you check youranswer?
They say yes.
Or when we're doing rounding,we're rounding and estimating.
Did you round first and thenadd the rounded numbers?
(16:38):
Yeah, no, you didn't.
What you did was you added theactual question and then you
estimated.
So after you knew what theanswer was, right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Because I wanted to get a good estimate.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
And they do this because it's a game that kids
play, right, part of it islaziness, most of it is
efficiency, most of it is, and alot of it is, an overestimation
of their abilities and so onand so forth.
But what if I lay out thewhiteboard and I take their
workspace and I divide it intothree and and there's different
(17:15):
ways to do that but I say, okay,in this square you're going to
actually solve the equation, inthis square you're going to put
the answer and in this squareyou're going to check your
answer.
In this square you're going toput the answer and in this
square you're going to checkyour answer.
And by laying out thewhiteboard like that, we see,
all of a sudden, 100% of thegroups are checking their answer
Because that's what goes inhere, it goes in that space,
(17:37):
sure, and it's amazing how justthose small changes shift their
behavior and so, playing withthat right, and how can I shape
the experience around the thingsthat I think are really
important mathematically, thatthey're glossing over.
And how can I get them to notgloss over that?
(18:01):
By just just by putting somelines on a board and saying this
is how I want you to lay outyour board and put these
headings in and get to work.
So I'm playing a lot with that.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
Well, it's interesting because it feels
like it's a little bit of makingreally big shifts in classrooms
that defront the classroom,that allow more collaboration,
that move these things.
And then now it's sort ofcoming back to well, we need a
little bit of structure.
And what is the structure?
Without over-structuring it,right, without going back to the
teacher and saying this is howit has to be, and make sure you
(18:36):
box your answer and put the linedown the middle and blah, blah,
blah, blah.
Right, that over-structureswhat kids are now mimicking.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Right, it's not that.
It's not that, it's not that atall.
It's just about communicating,through my actions, what it is
that is important here.
I'll give you another example.
Right, I'm doing a task that'sgoing to require the kids to
look for a pattern, like notright away, but they're going to
have done.
After they've done like five orsix tasks, they're going to
(19:03):
have to start looking for apattern because I want them to
generalize but they keep erasingtheir work and it's so hard to
spot a pattern on things thathave disappeared.
Photos don't work, so it's now.
Let's divide the board and sayyou're going to do the first
question here, the second onehere, the third one here, and it
(19:25):
just forces them to preservetheir work In general when.
I say okay, now look for apattern.
All the work is there.
It could be inside of there, itcould be chaotic and messy and
whatever, because I'm not overlyprescribing that.
I just want them to preservetheir work and their answer so
that they can start looking fora pattern.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, it's the structure.
Like you're saying, thisstructure is focused toward yeah
, how, what are the things Iwant them to be paying attention
to, or that are important tothe thinking?
Yeah, as opposed to whatexactly?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
they're right, because they're driven to just
focus on the answer, right likethat's what they just want to
focus on the answer, and whatI'm trying to do is create room
for the process to, to bepreserved and sometimes to force
a process, not necessarilytelling you what process to do,
but I'm forcing you to leaveroom for checking the answer,
(20:18):
and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
And that's true outside of math, with teachers
too.
Like teachers want to have ananswer of how this works, yeah,
and not go through the process.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Yeah, we got to go through the process.
Yeah, yeah, but it's so.
I've been playing a lot withthat and again, I definitely
don't want to get into structurethat forces mimicking, but just
structure that helps, helps,leave room for things that are
important.
That I know.
I know that this is where Iwant to get them to by the end
(20:50):
of the lesson.
Right, this is important.
We got to get to this point andthey're not going to get there
if they keep doing what they'redoing.
So it's like how can I create abit of structure so that they
can start to notice thingsearlier in the activity?
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Well, thank you so much for coming on today.
It's been a wonderfulconversation.
We appreciate it.
We know it's late where you are, so we appreciate you staying
up and getting settled with usand then talking with us, and
please give your wife, charisse,our regards.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yes, please.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
We look forward to seeing you in February.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
We'll see you soon.
Yeah, waiting for it in SanDiego.
Yes, indeed, all right, thankyou so much, my pleasure.
Speaker 3 (21:42):
So that is all we have time for on this episode of
the More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H and can be
found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
(22:05):
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (22:08):
It'll be December 10th, nobel Prize Day, and
there's so many prizes given onthis day.
There's only six categories andpeace prizes in there somewhere
, and I'm so interested to learnand find out more see what
Misty has to know about it.
I don't think much about NobelPrizes, and so it'll be fun to
(22:29):
see what prizes have been givenand for what reasons, and to
enjoy this day and think aboutwhat others have done that
deserve a Nobel Prize.
So we'll see you on December10th.
Hope to see you there, thankyou.
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