April 1, 2025 • 33 mins
First, we launch into Mathematics and Statistics Awareness Month. But we don't need to tell YOU how important this is!!
Then we have part one of a conversation with Dr. Nicole Joseph of Vanderbilt University. Dr. Nicole Joseph takes us on a profound journey into the heart of mathematics education, revealing how identity shapes learning experiences, particularly for Black girls. Drawing from her personal story of being moved to an honors math class after her mother confronted a teacher who repeatedly overlooked her raised hand, Joseph illuminates how pivotal classroom moments can transform a student's relationship with mathematics forever.
The conversation dives deep into mathematics identity – that powerful construct encompassing both how we perceive ourselves as math learners and how others perceive us. Joseph explains how a teacher's belief in a student's potential can completely reshape their mathematical self-concept, while negative experiences can cement a lifelong belief of "not being a math person" despite successfully using math in everyday life.
Most compellingly, Joseph unpacks the structural barriers that contribute to Black girls' underrepresentation in mathematics. From the patriarchal culture of mathematics departments lined with portraits of white male mathematicians to the misinterpretation of Black girls' classroom behaviors like question-asking as weakness rather than engagement, these barriers systematically exclude talented students from advanced mathematical opportunities.
Her research on adultification bias reveals how Black girls are often held to adult standards while being denied the developmental understanding afforded to their white peers, creating additional obstacles to mathematics achievement. This conversation challenges listeners to reconsider how implicit biases manifest in classroom interactions and how we might create more inclusive mathematical spaces.
Continue the conversation and connect with Dr. Joseph:
Thread and Instagram: @nicolemjoseph3
Facebook: nicolemichellejoseph
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
X: @cpmmath
Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach of CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Boom, Guess what Joel .
Speaker 1 (00:33):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Today is the first of April which is one of my
favorite days?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Not really yeah well, it's the beginning of a new
month.
It is the beginning of a newmonth.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
It is the beginning of a new month.
It's also April Fool's Day.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
No.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Which I'm not a big fan of.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, supposedly, I don't know.
Huh, as a middle school teacher, I did not enjoy April Fool's
Day.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
No, mostly because I had to pretend that my students
had fooled me, because theyweren't that clever, did you
often get repeats?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I thought they would just come and do things like Ms
Nicklin, there's something onyour forehead.
Really, they're like oh, aprilFool's.
I mean, there's just little,very silly things like that that
I was like oh.
I didn't know it was AprilFool's Day today, yeah, so not a
big fan, see to my colleagues.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I'd always send like fake collection notices from
banks and stuff and be like haha, no, I never did that.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
But you tried to spam your colleagues, I never did
that Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
By the way, Joel, I think you owe a toll and you
should reply to this at the end,or your license will be
suspended in 24 hours If that'san indicator of April Fool's Day
.
I've been celebrating AprilFool's Day for months now.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So what is the national day today?
I mean, I hope it's more thanApple Fool's Day.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah well, it even expands over the more than a day
.
It expands a month.
It's Mathematics and StatisticsAwareness Month.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Are you joking?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
No, it's a real thing .
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Wow, mathematics and Statistics Awareness.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Month yes.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Do we get like wristbands for those?
Speaker 4 (02:22):
We should.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Like maybe those little pie wristbands yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Make it, let's make it happen.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Okay, Well, I'm sure we can order them.
So okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Guess guess which president made it official?
Jimmy Carter no Do you want toguess again?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Teddy Roosevelt.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Ronald Reagan President, ronald Reagan ow.
In 1986 it became official well, interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, I wonder why Ronald Reagan decided to do that
.
I'm not sure probably to beatthe Russians probably probably
to or the Soviet Union?
Yeah, wasn't it the.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That was the Cold War time, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
It was definitely.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
When do you think the Statistical Society, the
American Statistical Association, first banded?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
1753.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
That's pretty old.
This is 1839 is the informationI have Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I had a different one .
It was a different statisticalsociety.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
That's probably true, disbanded and then rebanded.
I clarified Americanstatistical.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
There's probably European or Babylonian?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
The Babylonians probably had a statistical
society.
Probably the Babyloniansprobably had a statistical
society.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Probably.
If they could I mean the Romansmight have had it, but it would
be really hard to do statisticsand rolling numbers.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Oh my gosh, can you imagine?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, can't.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I-I-I deviations from the.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I don't want to even do long division.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Maybe that's how we could appreciate and be aware of
mathematics.
This month is to do a Romannumeral long division.
Maybe, polydoku, we'll dopolydoku.
Roman numerals.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
What Roman numerals Sweet.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Does it have legitimate suggestions?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, it says how to observe this month.
You could get vocal on social,oh all right, here's your call.
So if you have social mediahashtag, math stat month.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And then after that put hashtag more math for more
people.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Exactly, or M-M-F-P, m-m Is that right?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
M more math for more.
No, m-m-f-m-p.
M-m-f-m-p, is that right?
M-more-m-f-m-p yeah, yeah, thatone.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You can bake a pie.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
You could bake a pie.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
With a side of quirky .
You can bake a pie and serve itwith a side of quirky.
Math trivia.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Oh wow.
Do they have an example ofquirky math trivia?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
It says for example did you know?
That the French refer to thepie chart as camembert.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Oh sure is that true or is that it's april fool's?
No, it's not april fool's joyunless this whole page is an
april fool's joke on me it couldbe.
Could be, oh my gosh, we'll beduped you can host a math
together math together like amath party, like invite your
(05:40):
friends over and just do math.
That'd be cool.
I mean, I'd be up for that,yeah, but that's, I'm weird,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Oh, and one last thing is you can make math
interesting again.
I, I those of you listeningright now probably yes.
I'm all for it the coolestthing?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, there's just too much there.
Okay, make math interestingagain.
Great, oh man.
Okay, so great.
How are you going to celebrate?
I mean, it's not just a day,it's the beginning of this whole
month.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
You could have many, many things, but what's the
first thing you're going to do?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
maybe, so the first thing I think I will do is plan
out my month in a maybealgorithmically but like an
organized way mathematicallykind of figure out how I'm going
to celebrate for the month andplan that out how about that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
How about you?
I, I don't know.
I'm kind of overwhelmed withideas when I have a whole month
to figure some things out.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You do.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So I'm not going to.
Yeah, it's hard to say.
We'll see I mean I try tocelebrate math almost every day.
Yeah yeah, so I could just keepdoing the things I'm doing,
that's true, and chalk it up asa double dip, right?
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Double, count.
Well, I'll check in with youwhen we get to the end of the
month and maybe we'll see whathappens.
Okay, we'll compare notes.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yes, awesome.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Well, enjoy your mathematics and statistical
appreciation month that launchestoday you too, hey, it's
(07:34):
Jocelyn, our PLC of theNortheast region, and here are
some of my thoughts heading intothis last marking period.
April seems to always hold twothings, often in juxtaposition
One moment, a northerner like meis enjoying the first flowers,
(07:55):
only to wake up to them coveredin snow.
We pull on our warmest sweatersso we can also maybe wear
sandals.
We teachers are still in thethick of our content, meetings,
planning, testing, and yet thenumber of days left is finally
(08:15):
small enough to count.
We are athletes carrying theexhaustion of our efforts but
also twitching our fingers toramp up adrenaline for the
finish, wondering just how muchwe have left in the tank.
When I find my tank is nearingempty and the opportunity to
(08:36):
fill up is not quite closeenough, I must lean into my best
habits.
What are your strengths as ateacher?
Where can you give yourself abreak?
Where are your moments of zen?
The best compliment I everreceived from a student was she
(08:57):
doesn't talk too much.
She lets us try instead.
So when the pressure ramps up,I try to step back and let
students see what they can do.
I think of it as pushing harderby letting go.
I use more VNPS work as part ofthe existing lessons, I add
standalone posters forconsolidation and closure and
(09:18):
I'll use the STTS hot seat tomake good, old-fashioned
computation practice lessold-fashioned.
And my best moments of zen comefrom realizing some students'
thinking and discourse is so onpoint that I can tell them take
the wheel.
Endurance is a combination ofchoosing the right pace and
(09:41):
fueling yourself.
Your pace comes from yourstrengths and your fuel comes
from the breaks and the momentsyou give yourself.
So do yourself the kindness.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
On the podcast, dr Joseph was the keynote speaker
(10:23):
at the 2025 CPM TeacherConference just recently in San
Diego, and we're really excitedto have her as a guest on the
podcast today.
We spoke with her for some time, so you're going to hear part
one of our conversation today.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Dr Joseph.
So Dr Joseph is an associateprofessor with tenure of
(10:44):
mathematics education in theDepartment of Teaching and
Learning at VanderbiltUniversity.
She's also an associateprofessor with tenure of
mathematics education in theDepartment of Teaching and
Learning at VanderbiltUniversity.
She's also an associate dean inthe Peabody Office of Student
Life and she directs the JosephMathematics Education Research
Lab, an intergenerational labthat focuses on training and
mentoring its members on Black,feminist and intersectional
(11:05):
epistemological orientations.
Dr Joseph's research explorestwo lines of inquiry Black women
and girls, their identitydevelopment and their experience
in mathematics, and genderedanti-Blackness, whiteness, white
supremacy and how these systemsof oppression shape Black
girls' learning.
White Supremacy and how theseSystems of Oppression Shape
(11:26):
Black Girls' Learning.
Access, underrepresentation andRetention in Mathematics Across
the Pipeline.
She has been active in thisfield for some time and has a
number of publications andinitiatives and projects that
she is working on.
Her most recent funded projectincludes co-designing and
(11:49):
validating a measure ofmathematics identity that
includes intersectionalitybarriers and intersectionality
assets.
She is awesome and we reallyenjoy talking with her, so I
hope that you enjoy this partone of our conversation with Dr
Nicole Joseph.
I am super excited todaybecause we're here with Dr
(12:13):
Nicole Joseph, who was thekeynote speaker at our teacher
conference in February.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
I'm super excited to talk with her about some things
today.
So welcome to the podcast, DrJoseph.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Welcome.
Thanks for joining.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Thank you for having me.
So, to get started, tell us alittle bit about your own
background experience and whatbrought you to your research
area.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Yeah, so I'm born and raised in Seattle, washington
and I did the traditionalattending a public school.
I think I learned pretty earlyhow to quote, unquote, do school
Learned quickly how to besuccessful, what I needed to do,
who were the teachers you knowto talk to, and I've always
(13:01):
loved math and I opened up,actually, my book with the
conversation that.
Well, it was an observation mymom was making outside the class
the third grade class we weredoing math and I was raising my
hand and the teacher didn't callon me and my mom basically said
the lady was racist and waslike you have to, nicole will be
(13:23):
removed out of this class.
Well, the only class that wasavailable was the honors class.
I don't remember the actualname of it, but it was the
honors class and you had to testin that.
And my mom was like I'm sorry,she's not testing in it, she's
getting out of this class.
So the principal agreed to putme in that class with Mr Johnson
(13:45):
, who I remember.
You know we have those teachersthat we just remember and
really the my math trajectoryjust sort of like the rest is
history, as they would say.
I really thrived in this class,fell in love with math.
It wasn't that he was teachinglike culturally responsibly or
anything like that, it was justthere was connection.
(14:07):
I love problem solving.
We got to talk with each otheras kids and that's something
that, just you know, changed mylife.
So, needless to say, I gothrough middle school and high
school and all the things,college and majored in economics
and minored in mathematics, andbecame a teacher, a math
teacher, and I think it wasreally there where I started to
(14:29):
sort of ask myself questions,although in high school I was
like why am I the only Blackstudent in the calculus class
Didn't have language, of course,on what was going on, but like
I felt it in my body and I alsojust like was looking around and
I'm like this is, this is notfun to be the only one, but when
(14:59):
I became a teacher is when Ireally started trying to think
about some of these questionspedagogies and interactions with
my students and families.
That would help me help themsee the value of math beyond
school and why math wasimportant, not just to take
these tests here or not becauseyou need this for you know the
(15:23):
next grade level, but reallywhat can it do for your life?
Like, how do you use it in yourlife.
And that's when I decided Ithink a few years after that
that I wanted to get a PhD andthat I wanted to research some
of these things, to learn how tobecome a researcher so that I
could deeply understand some ofthese issues, and you know some
(15:45):
of these questions.
So it's been a long road.
I've been thinking about thisfor a long time because having
equity in math for me and socialjustice is really important,
because we have established math, I think, just in society in
general, as you either are amath person or you are not.
(16:05):
And then the complexity comeswhen we think intersectionally
about how that can impact andshape.
You know well Black girls in mycase, but variety of
marginalized students andlearners.
So that's how I came to thiswork.
I was just really passionateand I had questions.
(16:27):
I wanted to figure out how toanswer those questions and
explore.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Do you think when you became a teacher then and
you're thinking back, was it MrJohnson?
Do you think you tried to usesome of those strategies, or is
that more of an experience ofquestioning?
So you started to question, soyou were coming up with your own
strategies.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I think it was just more of an experience for me.
Like I said, I don't reallythink he was doing anything.
That was like super earthshattering.
I think it was just.
First of all, it was just beingin an honors class and like
having this level of expectationthat you could do the work and
(17:09):
then me actually showing myselfthat I could do the work, and
I'm specifically, you know,talking about math, but as well
as like language arts and others.
So I don't know like math mademe feel like I could do better
in other areas that I feltweaker in, Because I just felt
(17:31):
the power.
I can't really explain it, butI just felt like when I was able
to solve problems in man, thatjust gave me this very powerful
feeling.
That then helped me to approachreading and literacy, which I
didn't feel like I was thatgreat.
I didn't like novels, I justdidn't like that stuff.
I loved informational texts andgive it to me all day, but like
(17:54):
novels I just wasn't.
And poetry and things like that, both things I felt were
challenging to me because theywere so metaphorical.
It was, you know, like allthese interpretations and I'm
like, no, just give me theinformation that I need.
So I think that that was justmy experience.
(18:15):
But when I went and became ateacher I hadn't really thought
about, like, what did Mr Johnsondo?
That?
Maybe?
I could adapt.
I think at that point I hadjust had so much experience
myself being a teacher thatthese ideas just sort of started
coming to me about how I needto engage with kids.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, yeah, in more meaningful ways, yeah, so, as
you moved from teaching and thendoing your PhD and beginning
this study and looking atparticularly Black girls in math
classrooms, what are some ofthe questions?
(18:57):
Right, I love that you hadthese questions that you were
pursuing.
What are some of the questionsthat you've asked and maybe
found some answers to or haveled to more questions?
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah.
So why weren't?
Why are black girls not inadvanced mathematics?
Was like one really bigquestion.
Why do black girls feel likethey can't be strong math
learners or strong math students, what?
What's getting in the way interms of, like, our educational
(19:32):
system, like what might begetting in the way of them being
able to, for example, be inadvanced math classrooms?
So those types of questions.
Once I came into the constructof math identity as a graduate
student and started to reallybegin to think about that, math
(19:52):
identity is very powerfulbecause it really is the way in
which researchers understand howsomeone feels about themselves
or how they perceive themselvesas a learner of math and as a
doer of math, and not justthemselves, but also other.
How do other people perceive you?
(20:15):
And so that's what makes a mathidentity, in my mind, a really
powerful construct to thinkabout is there's sort of the
mirrors and windows, like it'sboth things happening, and what
shows up, I think, in a studentor a Black girl is some of that
space of both of those thingshappening.
So, for example, a fourthgrader might say, oh, you know,
(20:41):
I'm not good at math, orwhatever, but the teacher might
recognize that this student isgood at math and might say, oh,
you should enter the, you know,the math club or the math
competition or whatever.
Whatever she takes up thatidentity and does it and then
something begins to like youknow sort of happen where she
(21:05):
probably feels, oh my God, I cando it and don't let her, like,
win the competition, becausethen really she, I think, comes
into this identity of I can dothat.
But sometimes it happens thatway, like someone else sees it
in you.
You don't necessarily see it inyourself because maybe
experiences that you've had itis so powerful.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I think that there's so many times with young people,
because of how they're bringingthe work at that time, right
Now is everything, so a smallexperience can feel like it's
everything.
So a small positive experienceor a small negative experience
could just make it be all ornothing for them.
(21:50):
And adults you know, olderpeople and other kids, but
primarily, I think, adults intheir lives important adults in
their lives can have so muchimpact on that.
Those tiny little shifts oftheir identity.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I just believe a math teacher can make or break a
student's math trajectory.
I talked to so many people.
I mean I could ask the both ofyou, like, did you have a math
teacher that like made adifference, either negatively or
positively?
Like we remember who they are,you know, I think we remember
(22:29):
teachers period, but mathteachers especially.
You know.
There's just something aboutthat experience that I think we
hold on to once we become evenadults, in terms of what that
was like with certain teacherswas like with certain teachers.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
That is good.
And going back to the, I am amath person, not a math person.
Somebody may be successful inhaving employment and having
using math on a day-to-day basis.
You alluded to honors versusnon-honors, that the difference
in the expectation is being ableto do work or not be able to do
work.
The difference in theexpectation is being able to do
(23:10):
work or not be able to do work.
So somebody who's very capableof doing work using math in life
might still say I'm not a mathperson because of an experience
they had with a teacher,Absolutely, or a different adult
.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, and educators are really important.
There's a really old study Idon't know if someone has
replicated the study, but it'scalled the Pygmalion effect.
I don't know if you guys haveheard of the Pygmalion effect,
but you know, basically therewas two groups of kids.
One group was really low, onegroup was really high.
The teacher was told theopposite, that the high group
(23:43):
was the low group and that thelow group was the high group.
Well, you know what happened?
Because the teacher had thesehigh expectations for what would
be the high group, thosechildren who were like, I guess,
technically really like low interms of their achievement
started achieving.
(24:04):
Because teachers, their beliefsare so powerful.
It's like if they believe thatyou can do it, they're going to,
in turn, teach you in thoseways and engage with you in
those ways.
That will reflect those beliefsand expectations.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I think, as young people, we do tend to look to
the adults who we see as peoplewho know more, have been there,
whatever that they have quoteunquote truth yeah, I mean, they
don't, but they have some moreknowledge and information and we
look to that for validation andaffirmation of who and what we
(24:44):
are and what we can do.
Yeah, it's very powerful, it'svery powerful we are and what we
can do.
Yeah, it's very powerful, it'svery powerful.
So what are some of the reasonsthat black girls aren't are?
Just you know that they theyaren't as represented in
mathematics.
Yeah, these questions about why?
Yeah, what were some of thethings that you came to?
Speaker 3 (25:03):
yeah, well, come to so far yeah, I'm gonna start
with the sort of structuralstuff which is just the culture
of mathematics, so thediscipline of mathematics.
So, when you ask someone, whenyou think of a mathematician,
who do you think about?
Seldom will people say mygrandmother, or seldom will they
(25:25):
say someone that they'rerelated to, or seldom will they
say someone that they're relatedto and I'm talking about really
anybody.
But specifically, when you ask,I think, marginalized people,
folks that have been excludedfrom math and you know, I've
done talks at universities inmath departments and one of the
things that I ask them to do isto take a walk down their
(25:47):
hallways and I ask them to lookat the walls and to ask them
like what do you hear?
What are your walls speaking?
And you know the jaw dropsbecause basically they're all
white men essentially.
So it's just like what kind ofmessaging do you think you say,
not just to marginalized people,but also to like white students
(26:08):
?
Like this is first of all, Idon't belong here if you are
white and male, but also I'mdominant, or this is my space if
you are white and male.
So it's like these messagesthat we get.
So the culture of math is veryexclusionary, it's very
patriarchal.
It's Scholars have called itwhite supremacy, male dominated
(26:32):
space, because there are certainconditions, certain ways of
thinking, certaincharacteristics about
competition, individualism, allof these characteristics that
sort of describe our discipline.
Even when you take certain mathclasses take, for example,
geometry you know it's aboutproofs, it's about proving what
(26:57):
quote unquote is true and yourability to be able to do that.
So it's exclusionary and itbasically does not feel
welcoming to Black girls, feelwelcoming to Black girls and we
see that across K-12, but Ithink we also see it more
salient in like undergrad andyou know, graduate schools,
(27:17):
graduate education.
So that's one thing I think.
Another thing is we talked alittle bit about is the low
teacher expectations and likelimited access to gifted
programming.
So how do you get into a giftedprogram and advanced math?
You have to have letters ofrecommendation or
recommendations from teachers.
So if teachers don't see you asa strong math student, then
(27:43):
they're not going to recommendyou.
And I think in the talk I mayhave shared a study that looked
at teachers not recommendingbasically Black girls for gifted
and part of it was because theyhad a not a deep understanding
in how Black girls participatedin math.
(28:04):
So, for example, they asked alot of questions and were asking
for clarification.
And in that particular studyand if you want it, you know for
the thing I can definitely giveit to you In that particular
study the teacher interpretedthat as you must not be ready,
if you're asking me this manyquestions, you must not be ready
(28:25):
for the next math class or thenext level of math.
So that was, you know, strange,but that both were.
Some of the things that we sawin the findings for that study
is that you know they're notrecommending black girls to
programs.
I think the other thing that Italked about there is just the
(28:47):
complexities of who they are,and part of that is I talked
about adultification bias.
You know a lot of educators andschools are very concerned with
how Black girls behave, whatthey wear, like all of these
things, and treat them likeadults rather than kids.
And so you know what a whitegirl might be able to get away
(29:12):
with.
A Black girl cannot.
It's described as likedevelopmental and you know she
just needs support if it's awhite girl, but then if it's a
Black girl it's like you oughtto know better and you shouldn't
be doing these things.
And so I haven't done a study.
I would love to get do a studyon like referral of Black girls,
(29:34):
like examining those referrals.
I have done that part, but whatI haven't done is where those
referrals came from.
I would be curious to know ifthey're coming from the math and
science classes or is it justall over the place.
My gut tells me that it'sprobably math or science classes
where a lot of those referralsare happening, because, one,
(29:58):
there's just low expectationsfor those girls in a lot in a
lot of schools not everywhere,but in a lot of places but also,
secondly, because the girlshave heard over and over,
implicitly and explicitly, thatyou don't belong in this space,
that you're not a good mathstudent, that teachers don't
want to support you in the waysthat you need.
(30:19):
It's like you might cut up, I'msaying like you may not do
exactly what it is that you'resupposed to do.
You're trying to protectyourself and so that's
misunderstood when you don'tunderstand, like Black girlhood,
for example.
So those are a few things thatI think contribute to why we see
(30:39):
what we see in terms ofdisproportionality and
underrepresentation in math.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
And then looking at that study and wondering about
referrals and things like that,is there not a solution, but
something that you see thatmight be counteracting that?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
I mean.
So are you asking me like, whatshould we do?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Oh man, as usual, we're going to leave you right
there so that you are veryexcited to come back and find
out the answer to that questionin two weeks on the next episode
of More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
We'll see you then.
So that is all we have time foron this episode of the More
(31:29):
Math for More People podcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H and can be
found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People.
(31:49):
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
It'll be April 15th, national Rubber Eraser Day, and
we're going to celebrate rubbereraser invention and I remember
back when I was a student inschool and used those erasers to
correct any mistakes.
I remember my students doingthe same things and then I
(32:12):
remember I switched to like golfpencils in my classroom and
there weren't any erasers and Ithought it was a good thing
because students would see themistakes there as they recorded
their work and things like that.
But I'm happy to visit NationalRubber Eraser Day again because
it's such kind of a coolinvention and very regular and
(32:34):
accessible in our homes, in ourclassrooms, in our communities.
I can't wait until.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
April 15th to talk about it.
Ha ha ha.
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach of CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Boom, Guess what Joel .
Speaker 1 (00:33):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Today is the first of April which is one of my
favorite days?
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Not really yeah well, it's the beginning of a new
month.
It is the beginning of a newmonth.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
It is the beginning of a new month.
It's also April Fool's Day.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
No.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Which I'm not a big fan of.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Is that true?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Well, supposedly, I don't know.
Huh, as a middle school teacher, I did not enjoy April Fool's
Day.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
No, mostly because I had to pretend that my students
had fooled me, because theyweren't that clever, did you
often get repeats?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I thought they would just come and do things like Ms
Nicklin, there's something onyour forehead.
Really, they're like oh, aprilFool's.
I mean, there's just little,very silly things like that that
I was like oh.
I didn't know it was AprilFool's Day today, yeah, so not a
big fan, see to my colleagues.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
I'd always send like fake collection notices from
banks and stuff and be like haha, no, I never did that.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
But you tried to spam your colleagues, I never did
that Wow.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
By the way, Joel, I think you owe a toll and you
should reply to this at the end,or your license will be
suspended in 24 hours If that'san indicator of April Fool's Day
.
I've been celebrating AprilFool's Day for months now.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
So what is the national day today?
I mean, I hope it's more thanApple Fool's Day.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah well, it even expands over the more than a day
.
It expands a month.
It's Mathematics and StatisticsAwareness Month.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Are you joking?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
No, it's a real thing .
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Wow, mathematics and Statistics Awareness.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Month yes.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
Do we get like wristbands for those?
Speaker 4 (02:22):
We should.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Like maybe those little pie wristbands yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
I think that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Make it, let's make it happen.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Okay, Well, I'm sure we can order them.
So okay, go ahead.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Guess guess which president made it official?
Jimmy Carter no Do you want toguess again?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Teddy Roosevelt.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Ronald Reagan President, ronald Reagan ow.
In 1986 it became official well, interesting.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Yeah, I wonder why Ronald Reagan decided to do that
.
I'm not sure probably to beatthe Russians probably probably
to or the Soviet Union?
Yeah, wasn't it the.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
That was the Cold War time, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
It was definitely.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
When do you think the Statistical Society, the
American Statistical Association, first banded?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
1753.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
That's pretty old.
This is 1839 is the informationI have Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I had a different one .
It was a different statisticalsociety.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
That's probably true, disbanded and then rebanded.
I clarified Americanstatistical.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
There's probably European or Babylonian?
Speaker 1 (03:40):
The Babylonians probably had a statistical
society.
Probably the Babyloniansprobably had a statistical
society.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Probably.
If they could I mean the Romansmight have had it, but it would
be really hard to do statisticsand rolling numbers.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Oh my gosh, can you imagine?
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, can't.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I-I-I deviations from the.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I don't want to even do long division.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Maybe that's how we could appreciate and be aware of
mathematics.
This month is to do a Romannumeral long division.
Maybe, polydoku, we'll dopolydoku.
Roman numerals.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
What Roman numerals Sweet.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Does it have legitimate suggestions?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, it says how to observe this month.
You could get vocal on social,oh all right, here's your call.
So if you have social mediahashtag, math stat month.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And then after that put hashtag more math for more
people.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Exactly, or M-M-F-P, m-m Is that right?
Speaker 2 (04:43):
M more math for more.
No, m-m-f-m-p.
M-m-f-m-p, is that right?
M-more-m-f-m-p yeah, yeah, thatone.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You can bake a pie.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
You could bake a pie.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
With a side of quirky .
You can bake a pie and serve itwith a side of quirky.
Math trivia.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Oh wow.
Do they have an example ofquirky math trivia?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
It says for example did you know?
That the French refer to thepie chart as camembert.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Oh sure is that true or is that it's april fool's?
No, it's not april fool's joyunless this whole page is an
april fool's joke on me it couldbe.
Could be, oh my gosh, we'll beduped you can host a math
together math together like amath party, like invite your
(05:40):
friends over and just do math.
That'd be cool.
I mean, I'd be up for that,yeah, but that's, I'm weird,
yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Oh, and one last thing is you can make math
interesting again.
I, I those of you listeningright now probably yes.
I'm all for it the coolestthing?
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Well, there's just too much there.
Okay, make math interestingagain.
Great, oh man.
Okay, so great.
How are you going to celebrate?
I mean, it's not just a day,it's the beginning of this whole
month.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
You could have many, many things, but what's the
first thing you're going to do?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
maybe, so the first thing I think I will do is plan
out my month in a maybealgorithmically but like an
organized way mathematicallykind of figure out how I'm going
to celebrate for the month andplan that out how about that
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
How about you?
I, I don't know.
I'm kind of overwhelmed withideas when I have a whole month
to figure some things out.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
You do.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So I'm not going to.
Yeah, it's hard to say.
We'll see I mean I try tocelebrate math almost every day.
Yeah yeah, so I could just keepdoing the things I'm doing,
that's true, and chalk it up asa double dip, right?
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Double, count.
Well, I'll check in with youwhen we get to the end of the
month and maybe we'll see whathappens.
Okay, we'll compare notes.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yes, awesome.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
Well, enjoy your mathematics and statistical
appreciation month that launchestoday you too, hey, it's
(07:34):
Jocelyn, our PLC of theNortheast region, and here are
some of my thoughts heading intothis last marking period.
April seems to always hold twothings, often in juxtaposition
One moment, a northerner like meis enjoying the first flowers,
(07:55):
only to wake up to them coveredin snow.
We pull on our warmest sweatersso we can also maybe wear
sandals.
We teachers are still in thethick of our content, meetings,
planning, testing, and yet thenumber of days left is finally
(08:15):
small enough to count.
We are athletes carrying theexhaustion of our efforts but
also twitching our fingers toramp up adrenaline for the
finish, wondering just how muchwe have left in the tank.
When I find my tank is nearingempty and the opportunity to
(08:36):
fill up is not quite closeenough, I must lean into my best
habits.
What are your strengths as ateacher?
Where can you give yourself abreak?
Where are your moments of zen?
The best compliment I everreceived from a student was she
(08:57):
doesn't talk too much.
She lets us try instead.
So when the pressure ramps up,I try to step back and let
students see what they can do.
I think of it as pushing harderby letting go.
I use more VNPS work as part ofthe existing lessons, I add
standalone posters forconsolidation and closure and
(09:18):
I'll use the STTS hot seat tomake good, old-fashioned
computation practice lessold-fashioned.
And my best moments of zen comefrom realizing some students'
thinking and discourse is so onpoint that I can tell them take
the wheel.
Endurance is a combination ofchoosing the right pace and
(09:41):
fueling yourself.
Your pace comes from yourstrengths and your fuel comes
from the breaks and the momentsyou give yourself.
So do yourself the kindness.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
On the podcast, dr Joseph was the keynote speaker
(10:23):
at the 2025 CPM TeacherConference just recently in San
Diego, and we're really excitedto have her as a guest on the
podcast today.
We spoke with her for some time, so you're going to hear part
one of our conversation today.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Dr Joseph.
So Dr Joseph is an associateprofessor with tenure of
(10:44):
mathematics education in theDepartment of Teaching and
Learning at VanderbiltUniversity.
She's also an associateprofessor with tenure of
mathematics education in theDepartment of Teaching and
Learning at VanderbiltUniversity.
She's also an associate dean inthe Peabody Office of Student
Life and she directs the JosephMathematics Education Research
Lab, an intergenerational labthat focuses on training and
mentoring its members on Black,feminist and intersectional
(11:05):
epistemological orientations.
Dr Joseph's research explorestwo lines of inquiry Black women
and girls, their identitydevelopment and their experience
in mathematics, and genderedanti-Blackness, whiteness, white
supremacy and how these systemsof oppression shape Black
girls' learning.
White Supremacy and how theseSystems of Oppression Shape
(11:26):
Black Girls' Learning.
Access, underrepresentation andRetention in Mathematics Across
the Pipeline.
She has been active in thisfield for some time and has a
number of publications andinitiatives and projects that
she is working on.
Her most recent funded projectincludes co-designing and
(11:49):
validating a measure ofmathematics identity that
includes intersectionalitybarriers and intersectionality
assets.
She is awesome and we reallyenjoy talking with her, so I
hope that you enjoy this partone of our conversation with Dr
Nicole Joseph.
I am super excited todaybecause we're here with Dr
(12:13):
Nicole Joseph, who was thekeynote speaker at our teacher
conference in February.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
And.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
I'm super excited to talk with her about some things
today.
So welcome to the podcast, DrJoseph.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Welcome.
Thanks for joining.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Thank you for having me.
So, to get started, tell us alittle bit about your own
background experience and whatbrought you to your research
area.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
Yeah, so I'm born and raised in Seattle, washington
and I did the traditionalattending a public school.
I think I learned pretty earlyhow to quote, unquote, do school
Learned quickly how to besuccessful, what I needed to do,
who were the teachers you knowto talk to, and I've always
(13:01):
loved math and I opened up,actually, my book with the
conversation that.
Well, it was an observation mymom was making outside the class
the third grade class we weredoing math and I was raising my
hand and the teacher didn't callon me and my mom basically said
the lady was racist and waslike you have to, nicole will be
(13:23):
removed out of this class.
Well, the only class that wasavailable was the honors class.
I don't remember the actualname of it, but it was the
honors class and you had to testin that.
And my mom was like I'm sorry,she's not testing in it, she's
getting out of this class.
So the principal agreed to putme in that class with Mr Johnson
(13:45):
, who I remember.
You know we have those teachersthat we just remember and
really the my math trajectoryjust sort of like the rest is
history, as they would say.
I really thrived in this class,fell in love with math.
It wasn't that he was teachinglike culturally responsibly or
anything like that, it was justthere was connection.
(14:07):
I love problem solving.
We got to talk with each otheras kids and that's something
that, just you know, changed mylife.
So, needless to say, I gothrough middle school and high
school and all the things,college and majored in economics
and minored in mathematics, andbecame a teacher, a math
teacher, and I think it wasreally there where I started to
(14:29):
sort of ask myself questions,although in high school I was
like why am I the only Blackstudent in the calculus class
Didn't have language, of course,on what was going on, but like
I felt it in my body and I alsojust like was looking around and
I'm like this is, this is notfun to be the only one, but when
(14:59):
I became a teacher is when Ireally started trying to think
about some of these questionspedagogies and interactions with
my students and families.
That would help me help themsee the value of math beyond
school and why math wasimportant, not just to take
these tests here or not becauseyou need this for you know the
(15:23):
next grade level, but reallywhat can it do for your life?
Like, how do you use it in yourlife.
And that's when I decided Ithink a few years after that
that I wanted to get a PhD andthat I wanted to research some
of these things, to learn how tobecome a researcher so that I
could deeply understand some ofthese issues, and you know some
(15:45):
of these questions.
So it's been a long road.
I've been thinking about thisfor a long time because having
equity in math for me and socialjustice is really important,
because we have established math, I think, just in society in
general, as you either are amath person or you are not.
(16:05):
And then the complexity comeswhen we think intersectionally
about how that can impact andshape.
You know well Black girls in mycase, but variety of
marginalized students andlearners.
So that's how I came to thiswork.
I was just really passionateand I had questions.
(16:27):
I wanted to figure out how toanswer those questions and
explore.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Do you think when you became a teacher then and
you're thinking back, was it MrJohnson?
Do you think you tried to usesome of those strategies, or is
that more of an experience ofquestioning?
So you started to question, soyou were coming up with your own
strategies.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
I think it was just more of an experience for me.
Like I said, I don't reallythink he was doing anything.
That was like super earthshattering.
I think it was just.
First of all, it was just beingin an honors class and like
having this level of expectationthat you could do the work and
(17:09):
then me actually showing myselfthat I could do the work, and
I'm specifically, you know,talking about math, but as well
as like language arts and others.
So I don't know like math mademe feel like I could do better
in other areas that I feltweaker in, Because I just felt
(17:31):
the power.
I can't really explain it, butI just felt like when I was able
to solve problems in man, thatjust gave me this very powerful
feeling.
That then helped me to approachreading and literacy, which I
didn't feel like I was thatgreat.
I didn't like novels, I justdidn't like that stuff.
I loved informational texts andgive it to me all day, but like
(17:54):
novels I just wasn't.
And poetry and things like that, both things I felt were
challenging to me because theywere so metaphorical.
It was, you know, like allthese interpretations and I'm
like, no, just give me theinformation that I need.
So I think that that was justmy experience.
(18:15):
But when I went and became ateacher I hadn't really thought
about, like, what did Mr Johnsondo?
That?
Maybe?
I could adapt.
I think at that point I hadjust had so much experience
myself being a teacher thatthese ideas just sort of started
coming to me about how I needto engage with kids.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Yeah, yeah, in more meaningful ways, yeah, so, as
you moved from teaching and thendoing your PhD and beginning
this study and looking atparticularly Black girls in math
classrooms, what are some ofthe questions?
(18:57):
Right, I love that you hadthese questions that you were
pursuing.
What are some of the questionsthat you've asked and maybe
found some answers to or haveled to more questions?
Speaker 3 (19:09):
Yeah.
So why weren't?
Why are black girls not inadvanced mathematics?
Was like one really bigquestion.
Why do black girls feel likethey can't be strong math
learners or strong math students, what?
What's getting in the way interms of, like, our educational
(19:32):
system, like what might begetting in the way of them being
able to, for example, be inadvanced math classrooms?
So those types of questions.
Once I came into the constructof math identity as a graduate
student and started to reallybegin to think about that, math
(19:52):
identity is very powerfulbecause it really is the way in
which researchers understand howsomeone feels about themselves
or how they perceive themselvesas a learner of math and as a
doer of math, and not justthemselves, but also other.
How do other people perceive you?
(20:15):
And so that's what makes a mathidentity, in my mind, a really
powerful construct to thinkabout is there's sort of the
mirrors and windows, like it'sboth things happening, and what
shows up, I think, in a studentor a Black girl is some of that
space of both of those thingshappening.
So, for example, a fourthgrader might say, oh, you know,
(20:41):
I'm not good at math, orwhatever, but the teacher might
recognize that this student isgood at math and might say, oh,
you should enter the, you know,the math club or the math
competition or whatever.
Whatever she takes up thatidentity and does it and then
something begins to like youknow sort of happen where she
(21:05):
probably feels, oh my God, I cando it and don't let her, like,
win the competition, becausethen really she, I think, comes
into this identity of I can dothat.
But sometimes it happens thatway, like someone else sees it
in you.
You don't necessarily see it inyourself because maybe
experiences that you've had itis so powerful.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
I think that there's so many times with young people,
because of how they're bringingthe work at that time, right
Now is everything, so a smallexperience can feel like it's
everything.
So a small positive experienceor a small negative experience
could just make it be all ornothing for them.
(21:50):
And adults you know, olderpeople and other kids, but
primarily, I think, adults intheir lives important adults in
their lives can have so muchimpact on that.
Those tiny little shifts oftheir identity.
Speaker 3 (22:06):
I just believe a math teacher can make or break a
student's math trajectory.
I talked to so many people.
I mean I could ask the both ofyou, like, did you have a math
teacher that like made adifference, either negatively or
positively?
Like we remember who they are,you know, I think we remember
(22:29):
teachers period, but mathteachers especially.
You know.
There's just something aboutthat experience that I think we
hold on to once we become evenadults, in terms of what that
was like with certain teacherswas like with certain teachers.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
That is good.
And going back to the, I am amath person, not a math person.
Somebody may be successful inhaving employment and having
using math on a day-to-day basis.
You alluded to honors versusnon-honors, that the difference
in the expectation is being ableto do work or not be able to do
work.
The difference in theexpectation is being able to do
(23:10):
work or not be able to do work.
So somebody who's very capableof doing work using math in life
might still say I'm not a mathperson because of an experience
they had with a teacher,Absolutely, or a different adult
.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah, and educators are really important.
There's a really old study Idon't know if someone has
replicated the study, but it'scalled the Pygmalion effect.
I don't know if you guys haveheard of the Pygmalion effect,
but you know, basically therewas two groups of kids.
One group was really low, onegroup was really high.
The teacher was told theopposite, that the high group
(23:43):
was the low group and that thelow group was the high group.
Well, you know what happened?
Because the teacher had thesehigh expectations for what would
be the high group, thosechildren who were like, I guess,
technically really like low interms of their achievement
started achieving.
(24:04):
Because teachers, their beliefsare so powerful.
It's like if they believe thatyou can do it, they're going to,
in turn, teach you in thoseways and engage with you in
those ways.
That will reflect those beliefsand expectations.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I think, as young people, we do tend to look to
the adults who we see as peoplewho know more, have been there,
whatever that they have quoteunquote truth yeah, I mean, they
don't, but they have some moreknowledge and information and we
look to that for validation andaffirmation of who and what we
(24:44):
are and what we can do.
Yeah, it's very powerful, it'svery powerful we are and what we
can do.
Yeah, it's very powerful, it'svery powerful.
So what are some of the reasonsthat black girls aren't are?
Just you know that they theyaren't as represented in
mathematics.
Yeah, these questions about why?
Yeah, what were some of thethings that you came to?
Speaker 3 (25:03):
yeah, well, come to so far yeah, I'm gonna start
with the sort of structuralstuff which is just the culture
of mathematics, so thediscipline of mathematics.
So, when you ask someone, whenyou think of a mathematician,
who do you think about?
Seldom will people say mygrandmother, or seldom will they
(25:25):
say someone that they'rerelated to, or seldom will they
say someone that they're relatedto and I'm talking about really
anybody.
But specifically, when you ask,I think, marginalized people,
folks that have been excludedfrom math and you know, I've
done talks at universities inmath departments and one of the
things that I ask them to do isto take a walk down their
(25:47):
hallways and I ask them to lookat the walls and to ask them
like what do you hear?
What are your walls speaking?
And you know the jaw dropsbecause basically they're all
white men essentially.
So it's just like what kind ofmessaging do you think you say,
not just to marginalized people,but also to like white students
(26:08):
?
Like this is first of all, Idon't belong here if you are
white and male, but also I'mdominant, or this is my space if
you are white and male.
So it's like these messagesthat we get.
So the culture of math is veryexclusionary, it's very
patriarchal.
It's Scholars have called itwhite supremacy, male dominated
(26:32):
space, because there are certainconditions, certain ways of
thinking, certaincharacteristics about
competition, individualism, allof these characteristics that
sort of describe our discipline.
Even when you take certain mathclasses take, for example,
geometry you know it's aboutproofs, it's about proving what
(26:57):
quote unquote is true and yourability to be able to do that.
So it's exclusionary and itbasically does not feel
welcoming to Black girls, feelwelcoming to Black girls and we
see that across K-12, but Ithink we also see it more
salient in like undergrad andyou know, graduate schools,
(27:17):
graduate education.
So that's one thing I think.
Another thing is we talked alittle bit about is the low
teacher expectations and likelimited access to gifted
programming.
So how do you get into a giftedprogram and advanced math?
You have to have letters ofrecommendation or
recommendations from teachers.
So if teachers don't see you asa strong math student, then
(27:43):
they're not going to recommendyou.
And I think in the talk I mayhave shared a study that looked
at teachers not recommendingbasically Black girls for gifted
and part of it was because theyhad a not a deep understanding
in how Black girls participatedin math.
(28:04):
So, for example, they asked alot of questions and were asking
for clarification.
And in that particular studyand if you want it, you know for
the thing I can definitely giveit to you In that particular
study the teacher interpretedthat as you must not be ready,
if you're asking me this manyquestions, you must not be ready
(28:25):
for the next math class or thenext level of math.
So that was, you know, strange,but that both were.
Some of the things that we sawin the findings for that study
is that you know they're notrecommending black girls to
programs.
I think the other thing that Italked about there is just the
(28:47):
complexities of who they are,and part of that is I talked
about adultification bias.
You know a lot of educators andschools are very concerned with
how Black girls behave, whatthey wear, like all of these
things, and treat them likeadults rather than kids.
And so you know what a whitegirl might be able to get away
(29:12):
with.
A Black girl cannot.
It's described as likedevelopmental and you know she
just needs support if it's awhite girl, but then if it's a
Black girl it's like you oughtto know better and you shouldn't
be doing these things.
And so I haven't done a study.
I would love to get do a studyon like referral of Black girls,
(29:34):
like examining those referrals.
I have done that part, but whatI haven't done is where those
referrals came from.
I would be curious to know ifthey're coming from the math and
science classes or is it justall over the place.
My gut tells me that it'sprobably math or science classes
where a lot of those referralsare happening, because, one,
(29:58):
there's just low expectationsfor those girls in a lot in a
lot of schools not everywhere,but in a lot of places but also,
secondly, because the girlshave heard over and over,
implicitly and explicitly, thatyou don't belong in this space,
that you're not a good mathstudent, that teachers don't
want to support you in the waysthat you need.
(30:19):
It's like you might cut up, I'msaying like you may not do
exactly what it is that you'resupposed to do.
You're trying to protectyourself and so that's
misunderstood when you don'tunderstand, like Black girlhood,
for example.
So those are a few things thatI think contribute to why we see
(30:39):
what we see in terms ofdisproportionality and
underrepresentation in math.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
And then looking at that study and wondering about
referrals and things like that,is there not a solution, but
something that you see thatmight be counteracting that?
Speaker 3 (30:58):
I mean.
So are you asking me like, whatshould we do?
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Oh man, as usual, we're going to leave you right
there so that you are veryexcited to come back and find
out the answer to that questionin two weeks on the next episode
of More Math for More Peoplepodcast.
We'll see you then.
So that is all we have time foron this episode of the More
(31:29):
Math for More People podcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H and can be
found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People.
(31:49):
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
It'll be April 15th, national Rubber Eraser Day, and
we're going to celebrate rubbereraser invention and I remember
back when I was a student inschool and used those erasers to
correct any mistakes.
I remember my students doingthe same things and then I
(32:12):
remember I switched to like golfpencils in my classroom and
there weren't any erasers and Ithought it was a good thing
because students would see themistakes there as they recorded
their work and things like that.
But I'm happy to visit NationalRubber Eraser Day again because
it's such kind of a coolinvention and very regular and
(32:34):
accessible in our homes, in ourclassrooms, in our communities.
I can't wait until.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
April 15th to talk about it.
Ha ha ha.
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