April 15, 2025 • 34 mins
First, it's National Rubber Eraser Day! So get your Pink Pearls out and celebrate!!
Then, we continue our conversation with Dr. Nicole Joseph of Vanderbilt University about the mathematical experiences of Black girls, revealing how they navigate spaces where they face unique challenges at the intersection of race and gender. Her research shows that Black girls are disproportionately affected by school disciplinary policies while simultaneously battling stereotypes about who belongs in mathematics.
Joseph's Black Feminist Math Pedagogies framework offers a revolutionary approach to mathematics education that honors both academic rigor and social connection. She challenges traditional notions of what "serious" math learning looks like, showing how Black girls thrive in environments that allow for laughter, collaboration, and relationship-building alongside challenging problem-solving. This transformative approach requires teachers to create classroom communities where critical conversations about justice and equity can flourish.
One message resonates clearly: curriculum alone cannot address educational inequities. Creating truly inclusive mathematics classrooms requires teachers who understand the complexities of students' identities and design learning environments where all students feel they belong.
Academy of Best Practices is happening in San Diego, CA on Aug 4-8! Find applications for the Academy for New Teachers and Veteran CPM Teachers HERE! Deadline is May 10.
Send Joel and Misty a message!
The More Math for More People Podcast is produced by CPM Educational Program.
Learn more at CPM.org
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Facebook: CPMEducationalProgram
Email: cpmpodcast@cpm.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach of CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Boom Once again.
I am very, very excited to knowYep April 15th, which has a lot
of significant meaning for somepeople.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Have you filed your taxes yet?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, is that really the tax day now?
Didn't they extend it a coupleof days?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or is it still the 15th?
No, it's the 15th, unless the15th happens on a weekend.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Oh gotcha.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
No, but this year it's on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
They should make the 15th as tax day be a national
holiday.
That you don't work so that youcan get your taxes done.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
And I already filed mine, like two months ago,
Anyway.
So I still wouldn't appreciate.
I'd appreciate a day off.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
But that's not what we're here to talk about.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
No, I don't want to celebrate that day today.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's April 15th.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So what is the national day that we're
celebrating today?
It is an appreciation of aweird national holiday, which is
National Rubber Eraser Day.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
National Rubber Eraser Day.
Yes, wow, okay, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We celebrated on this day, giving us a blank canvas
and a do-over on stationery.
That is nothing short ofrevolutionary.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
What A do-over.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, we get a do-over because you get to erase
it.
Oh, you erase something.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I have a pink pearl eraser right here.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Oh yeah, you do.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, it even says pink pearl.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
When's the last time you used it?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I had to find it in my drawer.
So not very often.
I mean, I don't write withpencil very often anymore and I
certainly don't erase much.
In fact it's kind of gottenhard.
It's probably not a very gooderaser anymore, it's a smearer
instead.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, what could you do with a hard expired rubber
eraser?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I don't know If I get it down to the parts that
haven't been oxidized, maybe itworks better.
Yeah, get that outside layeryeah get the outside layer off
does seem to be getting down tosomething.
I when I was a well, when I wasa kid, but I would say even
still today, like erasers wereone of my.
I loved all the school supplies, yes, and, but erasers were one
(02:41):
of the coolest things, like ohand I I don't.
I hated it when I don't know if,like they would cut them in
half, right, they would takethem and cut them in half so
that, like, more people couldhave erasers.
Oh, I didn't run into that.
It was not as fun when therewas like maybe it was only my
mom, I don't know.
Yeah, but like to save money orsomething, but like get a half
eraser.
(03:02):
It's not as fun as a nice inkpearl eraser.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I would always get like a new packet each year of
the erasers that you put on topof the pencil.
Oh, they go on your pencils,yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I always wanted those , because of course we didn't
have them, so then I wanted them.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
But then when I did have them, I found they were not
as great Again.
They didn't always erase verywell.
Eventually they get down to theplace where the pencil metal
part was poking through them andthen they were just scratching
your paper.
I feel like this is somethingthat kids of today probably
can't appreciate.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
How much?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
do they spend times writing things and erasing
things?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It's called a delete button.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And then you can always undo, that's right, yeah,
it's just I mean.
I don't even write with pencilvery often.
I do have some pebbles when Ido math.
I do like to write with pencils, but I like them to be really
sharp and not so.
I use mechanical pencils a lot,otherwise I have to sharpen my
pencil almost continuouslyBecause a dull pencil is yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Pencil sharpeners Interesting.
I still have one off the desk.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I don't know why I don't actually have any pencil
sharpeners.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, I gave mine away.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I'm like there's no pencil in here that I could
sharpen, but I have a pencilsharpener.
It's no pencil in here that Icould sharpen, but I have a
pencil sharpener.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
It's one of those auto-stop ones.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
That works really nice.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Does it have the different sizes?
Like you can spin the wheel?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
No, no, no, no, it's an electric one.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, gotcha gotcha.
My students would oftentimeswith my electric pencil
sharpener, even though I set upclass agreements and routines
and such that routine alwaysfell to.
The next person who needed tosharpen their pencil was the
empty the sharpener bin.
Yeah, and it would overflow andit was not a good thing.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah, no, I was definitely empty the sharpener.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I wasdefinitely empty.
Yeah, it was always the kidswho couldn't get it to like
quite sharpen exactly when theywanted and they were like
sharpen, sharpen, sharpen.
Yeah, or or the students whothought it was funny to
(05:21):
interrupt class.
They didn't.
They didn't usually interruptme oh, really definitely they
were like definitely it was thekids who, like pencil totally
broke.
They can't write whatever.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I'm like, go ahead sharpen I would have to say that
and this might even be pre-cpmstuff that my class would be
interrupted by a pencilsharpener because I was up at
the board mimicking, wantingsome mimicking to be happening.
But once I adopted cpm, then itdid not become an interruption
anymore because we were all justso busy.
That's right, did you knowpre-1770, that crustless bread
(05:56):
used to be used to erasecharcoal markings?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yes, Crustless bread would erase circle markings,
that's right.
Circle markings on what?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Well, pre-1770, I don't think we had number two
pencils.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, they didn't have paper either.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
really, Well, so you'd mark on the rocks Paper
was hard to come by, right?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And you'd use crustless bread.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Crustless bread Interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
All right.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Well, that's an interesting fact, that will be I
like celebrating an eraser, butI also like the fact of not
erasing something, like crossingout and continuing or something
like that sounds good to me tooright.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I don't really like erasable pen because really it
means that the pen doesn't writevery well yeah, I wasn't all
right.
How are you going to celebraterubber eraser day?
Speaker 1 (06:50):
well, I'm going to.
I'm going to celebrate bygetting some charcoal writing on
a rock and I'm going to takesome crustless bread and I'm
going to test out this theoryall right, and you're going to
learn that you appreciateerasers.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
If you want it to erase.
So I've already found my pinkpearl eraser.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I'm going to erase some things with it.
No, I don't, there's nothingwritten on pencil in my desk.
But Excellent, there you go.
Well, find your own way toaccelerate rubber erasing,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Enjoy your day.
Hey, my name is Tony Jammerndtand I'm a former middle school
educator who has transitioned toworking full-time with CPM in
the Curriculum and AssessmentDepartment.
My current position isWriter-Editor and I'm currently
the Managing Editor for thethird edition of Core
Connections, which I love.
I wanted to take some time outto talk to you about the Academy
(07:58):
of Best Practices, or ABP as weaffectionately call it.
I was involved as a participantback in 2018 with the Veteran
Teacher Cohort and in the pastfew years, I've been able to
help facilitate the week withthe Veteran Cohort.
Abp is one of the most, if notthe most, impactful learning
experiences I've had in my 20years as an educator Gathering
(08:22):
with 32 educators from acrossthe country for a week of diving
into the best and mosteffective ways to engage
students and help students learnand achieve at high levels just
an incredible experience.
So you will engage withrenowned authors and speakers.
You will collaborate withcolleagues.
You'll be challenged to thinkoutside the box and more during
(08:43):
this week.
That's so incredibly upliftingand encouraging for educators.
With colleagues, you'll bechallenged to think outside the
box and more during this week.
That's so incredibly upliftingand encouraging for educators.
It made me look at my ownteaching in ways I had never
really previously thought about.
It's a week of learning, butprovides ample time to think,
reflect and apply in what youare learning.
The takeaways are amazing andthey certainly changed my
(09:04):
outlook and my practice when Iwent back to my classroom.
However, just as impactful isthe connection that I made with
so many different educators fromacross the country.
These are educators I still keepin touch with and share things
with seven years after ABP, andthat includes every time zone of
the continent.
(09:24):
In the United States, peoplefrom California to Massachusetts
and many places in between.
We still regularly check inwith each other, share ideas,
talk about what works, whatdoesn't work, something new we
tried and gather ideas from eachother.
So this year we want toaccommodate 64 more educators
from all walks of life and fromall over the country.
(09:44):
This includes a new teachercohort having taught in the
classroom for five years or lessand a veteran teacher cohort
having taught CPM for five yearsor more.
And here's the beauty of it allit's fully funded by CPM.
The cost of travel, lodging andmeals is all provided with no
cost to you other than your ownspending money on the social
(10:07):
events you may fill yourevenings with.
I know I did quite a bit ofthat.
So this year we will bespending a week together in
beautiful San Diego, california,and you can be a part of it.
We want you to be a part of it.
Applications are open now.
So apply today and be preparedto spend a week being blown away
by an incredible, rich andrewarding experience like no
(10:30):
other.
We hope to see you there.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Thanks, tony.
Applications for the Academy ofBest Practice can be found at
cpmorg backslash, abp, and thoseapplications are open until May
10th, so please go check it out.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
So next up we have part two of our conversation
with Dr Nicole Joseph.
If you missed part one, you'regoing to want to go back to the
April 1st podcast and give thata listen and then come back here
, and listen to part two of ourconversation with Dr Nicole
Joseph of Vanderbilt University.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
And then, looking at that, your study, and wondering
about referrals and things likethat, is there not a solution,
but something that you see thatmight be counteracting that?
Speaker 4 (11:37):
I mean.
So are you asking me like, whatshould we do?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Or are you kind of like, well, should we do?
I don't think there's like asolution necessarily, should we
do?
Or are you kind of like, well,should we do.
I don't think there's like asolution necessarily.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I mean, I think part of it is like we have to train.
we have to deeply train teachers, educators about Black girlhood
and I talked about this I thinkin my talk, and the best way is
to really just haveconversations with Black girls,
right, like in your purview, inyour school.
But teachers need to be trainedon these things, they need to
(12:09):
understand the data that Blackgirls are the leading group of
students of all races and gender, of kids that are being
suspended from school.
And you know, like going alittle bit deeper about like why
that is and understanding someof the complexities.
(12:30):
Right, schools are just not avery good place for Black girls
because they're just being hitleft and right, not physically
hit, but hit left and right withissues.
Right, they can't do this orthey're wearing the wrong thing,
their hair is too big, or it'sjust always something.
They talk too much, it's justalways something that seems to
(12:53):
get in the way of people,teachers and educators seeing
them.
As you know, strong learners andour system of tracking, our
system, like all of those thingsare negative experiences for, I
think, really all kids, butBlack girls, I think in
(13:15):
particular, and I say thatbecause Black girls are sitting
at the intersection of twomarginalized identities.
So, girls, it doesn't matterwhat race you are.
In our country, we don't thinkgirls can do math and science.
They don't belong in math andscience, right, but we also
think that Black people can't domath and science or not smart
(13:36):
in math and science, and I'mjust going to say it.
We heard it on the news whenthe plane crashed that it was
because of diversity,essentially.
So like we have a world that,where people are thinking that
that's a problem because wehaven't looked beneath the
(13:57):
surface to really understandwhat have been the factors
historically, politically,economically, all of those
things that have contributed to,you know, marginalized people
in this country's experience,yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
There's such a huge underlying piece, that sort of
that intersection piece, right,that sort of cultural
expectation of how girls andwomen are to behave, right, and
that normification which isunreasonable and the pieces
around who gets to do math, whogets to, who is like in such a
(14:38):
double hit is like in such adouble, double hit.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Yeah, it is a double hit and I will tell you that a
paper that I have my studentsread this.
These are my phd students atvanderbilt.
They there's a class that Iteach called politics, learning
and identity in math curriculaand essentially I take them all
the way back to Mesopotamia,greeks way back then, to see how
(15:07):
math was engaged with.
And that is the start of theabstract and applied fight.
And I don't know if you guysare aware of this, but even
today you will go into certaininstitutions.
There will be an applied mathdepartment and there will be a
math department.
(15:27):
So generally that's like theabstract stuff.
And then applied math.
You have data science, you know, like all of the things,
technology, things that we know.
And even back then the Greekswere saying y'all ain't doing
math.
Telling the people fromMesopotamia y'all ain't doing
real math.
They were using math to createcalendars and to help them with
harvesting and farming andthings like that Very important
(15:50):
right.
But the Greeks were like thatain't math, we're doing abstract
Pythagorean theorem, and theyhad access to the world in terms
of, like, putting publishing inquotes, but you know what I'm
saying to be able to reallyspread that globally, which is
why the West really took uptheir math scope and sequence.
(16:13):
And you know, everything prettymuch comes from the Greeks,
sure?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Sure, I remember in my college experience it was
because I was in the educationdepartment I had to take certain
math classes that math majorsdidn't have to take Our
discipline is we really need tocome?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
together and that you know.
I'm not sure what that's about,except for status and I don't
know.
Like people who considerthemselves abstract
(16:53):
mathematicians, for some reason,they just feel more privileged
and, like they know more,they're smarter, feel more
privileged and like they knowmore, they're smarter.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Not everybody, but that is like the sense that we
get, especially when you have tohave two different departments
yeah so.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So tell us a little bit about I don't know if you
call it a framework or a rubrica rubric, but you're, you're
black, feminist math pedagogies.
Can you tell us a little bitabout?
Speaker 4 (17:21):
that.
So what I tried to do overseveral years is to take what.
I was learning from Black girlsto try to put together what
would it look like, throughBlack girls or through a Black
girl's specificity lens, toengage in math learning.
That would be transformative.
(17:42):
So the pieces that are a partof it, the ambitious instruction
, critical consciousness, robustmath identities and
transformative and radicalacademic social integration.
So I always tell people, if youwere to just take ambitious
instruction, I think that therewould be some.
(18:03):
That's good teaching.
That's good math teaching foreverybody, right?
Because ambitious instructionas you guys know we're we're
talking about kids get to youmanipulatives, technology.
They are problem posing.
They are using discourse andmath talk and modeling
(18:24):
mathematics.
They're using the eightmathematical practices, like
that's what we see and that isbeautiful.
That's often not what I havelearned over these several years
from Black girls.
That's not the type of mathexperiences that they are having
.
They're not in classes wherethey're getting that type of
(18:44):
exposure.
They are getting worksheets orvery more procedure oriented
type of learning.
So you could just do that andyou would be.
I think there would be someimprovements.
But if you want to get to likewhat I call it's the
transformative piece.
The transformative piece istrying to bring in what I've
(19:06):
learned about, like Blackgirlhood.
So, for example, this idea ofhumanizing the math teaching and
learning space by integratingsocial and academic social and
academic.
So Black girls have said to meover and over, and I've read in
(19:27):
other people's studies, thatthey want a relaxed and fun and
rigorous environment In theirheads.
That's the experience, so to beable to laugh and joke and be
more relaxed while they're alsoworking on important mathematics
.
That's what they want.
But that's in direct oppositionto what we view as like a
(19:50):
serious math student.
Right, you ain't laughing andtalking and all that kind of
stuff.
You're definitely focused onsolving the problem, usually by
yourself, and so that's a reallythat's transformative.
If we could get teachers tocreate a learning environment,
(20:11):
design a learning environmentwhere we get to allow a more
social environment, a socialexperience that I think Black
girls would probably engage more.
The other thing that I learnedis that Black girls want to have
a connection with their mathteachers.
Now, I don't mean just like oh,miss Misty, she's very nice.
(20:33):
What I'm learning from them isthat they want to be able to
come to you, misty, for anything, talk to you about their
problems.
That may have nothing to dowith math, but somehow that
connection makes you someone whothey can trust, which then
(20:53):
allows them to take more risksin math, try more.
You're the math teacher, butyou're also this person who they
are able to very much relate to, right?
So those are some examples ofthe academic and social
integration.
And then the other piece aboutcritical consciousness is like
(21:16):
how do we teach math in ways andthis really becomes where we're
thinking about curriculum in awhole different way, which is
where you know CPM might be ableto like do some things, but you
know, like how do we use mathin a way that helps kids
understand injustices?
Like use the math?
(21:38):
And I know I've read andanalyzed lessons in y'all's
curriculum where you try to dothose things.
But that's going to a wholeother level where you're trying
to do that.
And Rico Gutstein, one of theearlier, earlier scholars at
Illinois he wrote about thisvery a long time ago Like how do
(21:58):
we use math to read and writethe world.
That's his language, but how dowe use math?
Teach kids to use math tobasically think about solving
problems that are important tothem, that they care about in
the world, that are generallyrelated to issues of justice.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, so you've seen some CPM problems that have
tried to do that.
Do you think that there's morethat could be added or, like
from what you've seen, somefeedback maybe on like, what did
you see missing versus what wasthere?
Speaker 4 (22:30):
I mean, first of all, just to even see some problems
like that that are talking aboutdifferent injustices, wages I
can't remember exactly what theLike suspension rates and some
other things like that.
You know just the EBC, someproblems like that was, I guess,
encouraging.
(22:50):
We've had Dr Berry who was thepresident of NCTM.
Him and some colleagues haveput together some like text on,
like math for social justice andhave used some of these very
similar problems, but it but itwas like a supplementary type of
thing.
It's not like an actualcurriculum.
(23:11):
Um, let me not say like it's not, a it's not like a standalone.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
It's not like a standalone curriculum right, you
can use this to.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
You know what you are doing or whatever, but you guys
, this is a standalonecurriculum that is built into
the, for example, seventh gradecurriculum.
So I think having those type ofproblems there are great.
Here's the thing If you stillhave to train the teacher, like,
you still have to train theteacher and you still have to, I
(23:42):
think, create a learningenvironment where having these
types of critical conversationsor more courageous conversations
are normalized and kids feelcomfortable because you could
try to use these types of mathproblems and they can, like go
to the left and kids that mightbe a part of certain communities
(24:06):
or even discover, like theirdiscoveries of solving math
problems, for example, thatblack women are like the lowest
wage earning people.
That might, if you haven't setthe atmosphere, if you haven't
set an environment where kidsare engaging in these things
like all the time and you'vebuilt a respectful and honest
(24:28):
community, even having thosetypes of problems could, they
might not go well.
So, I'm not saying that you canjust do it and just, oh my God,
pick up your book on Monday andgo there.
No, there's still a lot of workthat has to be put into it, but
at least the problems are therethat are a part of the
(24:48):
standalone curriculum.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, and you can build that community around.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
I love it, that's right and build that community
around it.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, I think that that's one of the things that we
definitely realize at CPM isthat the curriculum, the
curriculum is not enough.
Right by itself, the curriculumis not enough.
The curriculum can do a lot andit can help and it can support,
and if the teacher isn'tworking counter to the
curriculum to try to do thosethings right, that it's
(25:20):
supporting the teachers in thosethings.
But the teachers are still theones who make the differences.
Who do it, how they implementwhat they implement, how they
create, design their classroomand learning environment yeah,
Makes the difference.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Absolutely, and I do wonder, like, in what ways do so
?
for example, I have a paperunder review right now and I
probably shouldn't say the title, because if somebody is the
reviewer, but, anyway, what Ilearned is that there are
particular instructionalstrategies in math that Black
(25:53):
girls really enjoy, and one ofthose is group work.
It's like small group work withother classmates as well as
like with the teacher, and sowhen we try to probe about, like
well, why, it goes back to thatsocial and academic integration
, being able to talk, being ableto share the load of the
(26:18):
cognitive thinking.
That's not how they describedit.
That's how I'm describing it.
No, because when they say thingslike well, if I don't
understand, I can go to one ofmy group members and they can
help me figure out what I missedor what I don't get, or
whatever, and that's just reallypowerful, like it kept coming
up over and over and over andover again that small group work
(26:41):
was something, a particularstrategy that they enjoyed and
said that that particularstrategy better helps them learn
.
Now I don't have any evidenceor any data about, like, how
their teachers said all that,but those are the types of
things that they talked aboutand they actually looked at like
(27:04):
cue cards.
So it's not like I went in andobserved these students.
They were looking at cue cardsthat had different types of
strategies and pictures of whatwas happening.
So I think it's important to saythat because I don't know how
teachers, teachers set thosethings up for them to then
articulate that that wassomething that they liked.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Well, so what are some of your future things
you're looking at?
Where are you going from here?
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Well, I am working on writing up my paper that will
talk about how I developed andvalidated my math identity
measure measure out there.
(27:55):
Well, there was like onemeasure out there that was
pretty good.
Things that shape someone'smath identity are things like
interest, your competence andrecognition, and we know from
some preliminary analysis thatrecognition is huge for Black
girls.
So if you want their identitiesto increase, having them feel
recognized where they recognizethemselves as a strong math
(28:17):
student, are things that we cando to shape.
So I co-designed that measurewith adolescent Black girls ages
8 through 13.
And when I say co-designed,basically I wrote up the
statements and then did a bunchof cognitive interviews, sat
side by side with them and theywent through each and every
(28:38):
question and gave me feedbackLike what is this question
asking?
And so we had questions aboutmath identity, but we also had
questions about barriers,intersectionality barriers, and
we had questions aboutintersectionality assets, which
those assets were trying to getat.
What are those things that areimportant for black girls?
What are they bringing to thetable that they can use as a
(29:01):
resource that can help themlearn math, and this idea of
like collaboration and workingwith other kids, and that just
that was really salient, and soone of the big pieces that came
out was like this is how theyfeel a sense of belonging, and
so we added, for example, theconstruct belonging to the prior
(29:22):
measure to help us thinkthrough Black girls.
So that's what I'm working onnow is getting that measure
published.
It has been we presented, we'resupposed to present it at AERA,
but I'm not sure if I'm goingto be able to make it.
So that's the next thing, andhopefully, after we develop the
(29:44):
scoring guides, we can partnerwith teachers, because I'm
always getting people saying isyour measure ready and we want
to use it.
But if we can, partner withschools to actually use it the
way we designed it, any studentcan get and we branched inside
of the algorithm.
So, basically, if someone saysif someone is like a Latina girl
(30:09):
, they go down this path, Blackgirls, they go down this path,
black girls, they go down thispath and answer questions that
are related to Black girls andthey see the word Black girl, if
you go down this path, it sayssomeone that looks like me, so
it's the same question, but itdoesn't have Black girl in it.
And I needed to do that so thatI could walk in a district and
(30:31):
say any of your kids can takethis assessment for math
identity.
Yeah, so that's the goal.
And then, of course, after that, trying to figure out how to
develop professional development.
What comes out of the scores.
How do we then buildprofessional development for the
teachers, for the girls, forthe administrators, to then
(30:55):
actually address some of thethings that come up out of the
assessment?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Right, that's like two or three years of work.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
That sounds amazing.
That sounds amazing.
It has been so great talkingwith you.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Thank you for having me, y'all, of course.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I love your passion.
I want to go teach Black girlsnow.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yay, you're going to have a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, no doubt.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Well, I appreciate you guys inviting me to be on
the podcast, because it's alwaysexciting to share the work, but
it's always extra exciting whenyou're sharing the work with
people who you know are, like,committed to these ideas, and
I've been in CPM's life now forabout three years through.
Laura, and just seeing theevolution of the work and what
(31:48):
they've been able to do throughpartnering with me has been
pretty amazing, and I'm just sohopeful for what CPM can do for
Black girls.
Thank you, thank you for thatAwesome.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
So you have a great day you too.
So that is all we have time foron this episode of the More
Math for More People podcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
(32:22):
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H.
It can be found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It'll be April 29th, national Zipper Day, and we get
to look about into the hugeroles that zippers play into our
daily lives.
The zipper is such aninteresting invention and I
think about how useful it is,things like that.
But often times when I thinkabout a zipper I think about the
(32:58):
snags or when it gets stuck orhow do I fix that, those types
of things.
One thing I remember at theNational Teacher Conference this
year is the gift bag included azipper and I thought that was
really great.
So I'm excited to look andvisit on April 29th and talk
(33:18):
about National Zipper Day.
Thank you, bye, bye.
You are listening to the More Math for More People
podcast.
An outreach of CPM educationalprogram Boom.
An outreach of CPM EducationalProgram.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Boom Once again.
I am very, very excited to knowYep April 15th, which has a lot
of significant meaning for somepeople.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Have you filed your taxes yet?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Well, is that really the tax day now?
Didn't they extend it a coupleof days?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Or is it still the 15th?
No, it's the 15th, unless the15th happens on a weekend.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Oh gotcha.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
No, but this year it's on a Tuesday.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
They should make the 15th as tax day be a national
holiday.
That you don't work so that youcan get your taxes done.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
And I already filed mine, like two months ago,
Anyway.
So I still wouldn't appreciate.
I'd appreciate a day off.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
But that's not what we're here to talk about.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
No, I don't want to celebrate that day today.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
It's April 15th.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So what is the national day that we're
celebrating today?
It is an appreciation of aweird national holiday, which is
National Rubber Eraser Day.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
National Rubber Eraser Day.
Yes, wow, okay, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We celebrated on this day, giving us a blank canvas
and a do-over on stationery.
That is nothing short ofrevolutionary.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
What A do-over.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Yeah, we get a do-over because you get to erase
it.
Oh, you erase something.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I have a pink pearl eraser right here.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Oh yeah, you do.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Yeah, it even says pink pearl.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
When's the last time you used it?
Speaker 2 (01:57):
I had to find it in my drawer.
So not very often.
I mean, I don't write withpencil very often anymore and I
certainly don't erase much.
In fact it's kind of gottenhard.
It's probably not a very gooderaser anymore, it's a smearer
instead.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Yeah, what could you do with a hard expired rubber
eraser?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
I don't know If I get it down to the parts that
haven't been oxidized, maybe itworks better.
Yeah, get that outside layeryeah get the outside layer off
does seem to be getting down tosomething.
I when I was a well, when I wasa kid, but I would say even
still today, like erasers wereone of my.
I loved all the school supplies, yes, and, but erasers were one
(02:41):
of the coolest things, like ohand I I don't.
I hated it when I don't know if,like they would cut them in
half, right, they would takethem and cut them in half so
that, like, more people couldhave erasers.
Oh, I didn't run into that.
It was not as fun when therewas like maybe it was only my
mom, I don't know.
Yeah, but like to save money orsomething, but like get a half
eraser.
(03:02):
It's not as fun as a nice inkpearl eraser.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
I would always get like a new packet each year of
the erasers that you put on topof the pencil.
Oh, they go on your pencils,yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I always wanted those , because of course we didn't
have them, so then I wanted them.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
But then when I did have them, I found they were not
as great Again.
They didn't always erase verywell.
Eventually they get down to theplace where the pencil metal
part was poking through them andthen they were just scratching
your paper.
I feel like this is somethingthat kids of today probably
can't appreciate.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
How much?
Speaker 2 (03:40):
do they spend times writing things and erasing
things?
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It's called a delete button.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
And then you can always undo, that's right, yeah,
it's just I mean.
I don't even write with pencilvery often.
I do have some pebbles when Ido math.
I do like to write with pencils, but I like them to be really
sharp and not so.
I use mechanical pencils a lot,otherwise I have to sharpen my
pencil almost continuouslyBecause a dull pencil is yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
Pencil sharpeners Interesting.
I still have one off the desk.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
I don't know why I don't actually have any pencil
sharpeners.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, I gave mine away.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
I'm like there's no pencil in here that I could
sharpen, but I have a pencilsharpener.
It's no pencil in here that Icould sharpen, but I have a
pencil sharpener.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
It's one of those auto-stop ones.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
That works really nice.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Does it have the different sizes?
Like you can spin the wheel?
Speaker 2 (04:33):
No, no, no, no, it's an electric one.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Yeah, gotcha gotcha.
My students would oftentimeswith my electric pencil
sharpener, even though I set upclass agreements and routines
and such that routine alwaysfell to.
The next person who needed tosharpen their pencil was the
empty the sharpener bin.
Yeah, and it would overflow andit was not a good thing.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Yeah, yeah, no, I was definitely empty the sharpener.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I wasdefinitely empty.
Yeah, it was always the kidswho couldn't get it to like
quite sharpen exactly when theywanted and they were like
sharpen, sharpen, sharpen.
Yeah, or or the students whothought it was funny to
(05:21):
interrupt class.
They didn't.
They didn't usually interruptme oh, really definitely they
were like definitely it was thekids who, like pencil totally
broke.
They can't write whatever.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
I'm like, go ahead sharpen I would have to say that
and this might even be pre-cpmstuff that my class would be
interrupted by a pencilsharpener because I was up at
the board mimicking, wantingsome mimicking to be happening.
But once I adopted cpm, then itdid not become an interruption
anymore because we were all justso busy.
That's right, did you knowpre-1770, that crustless bread
(05:56):
used to be used to erasecharcoal markings?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Yes, Crustless bread would erase circle markings,
that's right.
Circle markings on what?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Well, pre-1770, I don't think we had number two
pencils.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Well, they didn't have paper either.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
really, Well, so you'd mark on the rocks Paper
was hard to come by, right?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
And you'd use crustless bread.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Crustless bread Interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
All right.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Well, that's an interesting fact, that will be I
like celebrating an eraser, butI also like the fact of not
erasing something, like crossingout and continuing or something
like that sounds good to me tooright.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
I don't really like erasable pen because really it
means that the pen doesn't writevery well yeah, I wasn't all
right.
How are you going to celebraterubber eraser day?
Speaker 1 (06:50):
well, I'm going to.
I'm going to celebrate bygetting some charcoal writing on
a rock and I'm going to takesome crustless bread and I'm
going to test out this theoryall right, and you're going to
learn that you appreciateerasers.
Yes.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
If you want it to erase.
So I've already found my pinkpearl eraser.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
I'm going to erase some things with it.
No, I don't, there's nothingwritten on pencil in my desk.
But Excellent, there you go.
Well, find your own way toaccelerate rubber erasing,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Enjoy your day.
Hey, my name is Tony Jammerndtand I'm a former middle school
educator who has transitioned toworking full-time with CPM in
the Curriculum and AssessmentDepartment.
My current position isWriter-Editor and I'm currently
the Managing Editor for thethird edition of Core
Connections, which I love.
I wanted to take some time outto talk to you about the Academy
(07:58):
of Best Practices, or ABP as weaffectionately call it.
I was involved as a participantback in 2018 with the Veteran
Teacher Cohort and in the pastfew years, I've been able to
help facilitate the week withthe Veteran Cohort.
Abp is one of the most, if notthe most, impactful learning
experiences I've had in my 20years as an educator Gathering
(08:22):
with 32 educators from acrossthe country for a week of diving
into the best and mosteffective ways to engage
students and help students learnand achieve at high levels just
an incredible experience.
So you will engage withrenowned authors and speakers.
You will collaborate withcolleagues.
You'll be challenged to thinkoutside the box and more during
(08:43):
this week.
That's so incredibly upliftingand encouraging for educators.
With colleagues, you'll bechallenged to think outside the
box and more during this week.
That's so incredibly upliftingand encouraging for educators.
It made me look at my ownteaching in ways I had never
really previously thought about.
It's a week of learning, butprovides ample time to think,
reflect and apply in what youare learning.
The takeaways are amazing andthey certainly changed my
(09:04):
outlook and my practice when Iwent back to my classroom.
However, just as impactful isthe connection that I made with
so many different educators fromacross the country.
These are educators I still keepin touch with and share things
with seven years after ABP, andthat includes every time zone of
the continent.
(09:24):
In the United States, peoplefrom California to Massachusetts
and many places in between.
We still regularly check inwith each other, share ideas,
talk about what works, whatdoesn't work, something new we
tried and gather ideas from eachother.
So this year we want toaccommodate 64 more educators
from all walks of life and fromall over the country.
(09:44):
This includes a new teachercohort having taught in the
classroom for five years or lessand a veteran teacher cohort
having taught CPM for five yearsor more.
And here's the beauty of it allit's fully funded by CPM.
The cost of travel, lodging andmeals is all provided with no
cost to you other than your ownspending money on the social
(10:07):
events you may fill yourevenings with.
I know I did quite a bit ofthat.
So this year we will bespending a week together in
beautiful San Diego, california,and you can be a part of it.
We want you to be a part of it.
Applications are open now.
So apply today and be preparedto spend a week being blown away
by an incredible, rich andrewarding experience like no
(10:30):
other.
We hope to see you there.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Thanks, tony.
Applications for the Academy ofBest Practice can be found at
cpmorg backslash, abp, and thoseapplications are open until May
10th, so please go check it out.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
So next up we have part two of our conversation
with Dr Nicole Joseph.
If you missed part one, you'regoing to want to go back to the
April 1st podcast and give thata listen and then come back here
, and listen to part two of ourconversation with Dr Nicole
Joseph of Vanderbilt University.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
And then, looking at that, your study, and wondering
about referrals and things likethat, is there not a solution,
but something that you see thatmight be counteracting that?
Speaker 4 (11:37):
I mean.
So are you asking me like, whatshould we do?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Or are you kind of like, well, should we do?
I don't think there's like asolution necessarily, should we
do?
Or are you kind of like, well,should we do.
I don't think there's like asolution necessarily.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I mean, I think part of it is like we have to train.
we have to deeply train teachers, educators about Black girlhood
and I talked about this I thinkin my talk, and the best way is
to really just haveconversations with Black girls,
right, like in your purview, inyour school.
But teachers need to be trainedon these things, they need to
(12:09):
understand the data that Blackgirls are the leading group of
students of all races and gender, of kids that are being
suspended from school.
And you know, like going alittle bit deeper about like why
that is and understanding someof the complexities.
(12:30):
Right, schools are just not avery good place for Black girls
because they're just being hitleft and right, not physically
hit, but hit left and right withissues.
Right, they can't do this orthey're wearing the wrong thing,
their hair is too big, or it'sjust always something.
They talk too much, it's justalways something that seems to
(12:53):
get in the way of people,teachers and educators seeing
them.
As you know, strong learners andour system of tracking, our
system, like all of those thingsare negative experiences for, I
think, really all kids, butBlack girls, I think in
(13:15):
particular, and I say thatbecause Black girls are sitting
at the intersection of twomarginalized identities.
So, girls, it doesn't matterwhat race you are.
In our country, we don't thinkgirls can do math and science.
They don't belong in math andscience, right, but we also
think that Black people can't domath and science or not smart
(13:36):
in math and science, and I'mjust going to say it.
We heard it on the news whenthe plane crashed that it was
because of diversity,essentially.
So like we have a world that,where people are thinking that
that's a problem because wehaven't looked beneath the
(13:57):
surface to really understandwhat have been the factors
historically, politically,economically, all of those
things that have contributed to,you know, marginalized people
in this country's experience,yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
There's such a huge underlying piece, that sort of
that intersection piece, right,that sort of cultural
expectation of how girls andwomen are to behave, right, and
that normification which isunreasonable and the pieces
around who gets to do math, whogets to, who is like in such a
(14:38):
double hit is like in such adouble, double hit.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Yeah, it is a double hit and I will tell you that a
paper that I have my studentsread this.
These are my phd students atvanderbilt.
They there's a class that Iteach called politics, learning
and identity in math curriculaand essentially I take them all
the way back to Mesopotamia,greeks way back then, to see how
(15:07):
math was engaged with.
And that is the start of theabstract and applied fight.
And I don't know if you guysare aware of this, but even
today you will go into certaininstitutions.
There will be an applied mathdepartment and there will be a
math department.
(15:27):
So generally that's like theabstract stuff.
And then applied math.
You have data science, you know, like all of the things,
technology, things that we know.
And even back then the Greekswere saying y'all ain't doing
math.
Telling the people fromMesopotamia y'all ain't doing
real math.
They were using math to createcalendars and to help them with
harvesting and farming andthings like that Very important
(15:50):
right.
But the Greeks were like thatain't math, we're doing abstract
Pythagorean theorem, and theyhad access to the world in terms
of, like, putting publishing inquotes, but you know what I'm
saying to be able to reallyspread that globally, which is
why the West really took uptheir math scope and sequence.
(16:13):
And you know, everything prettymuch comes from the Greeks,
sure?
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Sure, I remember in my college experience it was
because I was in the educationdepartment I had to take certain
math classes that math majorsdidn't have to take Our
discipline is we really need tocome?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
together and that you know.
I'm not sure what that's about,except for status and I don't
know.
Like people who considerthemselves abstract
(16:53):
mathematicians, for some reason,they just feel more privileged
and, like they know more,they're smarter, feel more
privileged and like they knowmore, they're smarter.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
Not everybody, but that is like the sense that we
get, especially when you have tohave two different departments
yeah so.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
So tell us a little bit about I don't know if you
call it a framework or a rubrica rubric, but you're, you're
black, feminist math pedagogies.
Can you tell us a little bitabout?
Speaker 4 (17:21):
that.
So what I tried to do overseveral years is to take what.
I was learning from Black girlsto try to put together what
would it look like, throughBlack girls or through a Black
girl's specificity lens, toengage in math learning.
That would be transformative.
(17:42):
So the pieces that are a partof it, the ambitious instruction
, critical consciousness, robustmath identities and
transformative and radicalacademic social integration.
So I always tell people, if youwere to just take ambitious
instruction, I think that therewould be some.
(18:03):
That's good teaching.
That's good math teaching foreverybody, right?
Because ambitious instructionas you guys know we're we're
talking about kids get to youmanipulatives, technology.
They are problem posing.
They are using discourse andmath talk and modeling
(18:24):
mathematics.
They're using the eightmathematical practices, like
that's what we see and that isbeautiful.
That's often not what I havelearned over these several years
from Black girls.
That's not the type of mathexperiences that they are having
.
They're not in classes wherethey're getting that type of
(18:44):
exposure.
They are getting worksheets orvery more procedure oriented
type of learning.
So you could just do that andyou would be.
I think there would be someimprovements.
But if you want to get to likewhat I call it's the
transformative piece.
The transformative piece istrying to bring in what I've
(19:06):
learned about, like Blackgirlhood.
So, for example, this idea ofhumanizing the math teaching and
learning space by integratingsocial and academic social and
academic.
So Black girls have said to meover and over, and I've read in
(19:27):
other people's studies, thatthey want a relaxed and fun and
rigorous environment In theirheads.
That's the experience, so to beable to laugh and joke and be
more relaxed while they're alsoworking on important mathematics
.
That's what they want.
But that's in direct oppositionto what we view as like a
(19:50):
serious math student.
Right, you ain't laughing andtalking and all that kind of
stuff.
You're definitely focused onsolving the problem, usually by
yourself, and so that's a reallythat's transformative.
If we could get teachers tocreate a learning environment,
(20:11):
design a learning environmentwhere we get to allow a more
social environment, a socialexperience that I think Black
girls would probably engage more.
The other thing that I learnedis that Black girls want to have
a connection with their mathteachers.
Now, I don't mean just like oh,miss Misty, she's very nice.
(20:33):
What I'm learning from them isthat they want to be able to
come to you, misty, for anything, talk to you about their
problems.
That may have nothing to dowith math, but somehow that
connection makes you someone whothey can trust, which then
(20:53):
allows them to take more risksin math, try more.
You're the math teacher, butyou're also this person who they
are able to very much relate to, right?
So those are some examples ofthe academic and social
integration.
And then the other piece aboutcritical consciousness is like
(21:16):
how do we teach math in ways andthis really becomes where we're
thinking about curriculum in awhole different way, which is
where you know CPM might be ableto like do some things, but you
know, like how do we use mathin a way that helps kids
understand injustices?
Like use the math?
(21:38):
And I know I've read andanalyzed lessons in y'all's
curriculum where you try to dothose things.
But that's going to a wholeother level where you're trying
to do that.
And Rico Gutstein, one of theearlier, earlier scholars at
Illinois he wrote about thisvery a long time ago Like how do
(21:58):
we use math to read and writethe world.
That's his language, but how dowe use math?
Teach kids to use math tobasically think about solving
problems that are important tothem, that they care about in
the world, that are generallyrelated to issues of justice.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah, so you've seen some CPM problems that have
tried to do that.
Do you think that there's morethat could be added or, like
from what you've seen, somefeedback maybe on like, what did
you see missing versus what wasthere?
Speaker 4 (22:30):
I mean, first of all, just to even see some problems
like that that are talking aboutdifferent injustices, wages I
can't remember exactly what theLike suspension rates and some
other things like that.
You know just the EBC, someproblems like that was, I guess,
encouraging.
(22:50):
We've had Dr Berry who was thepresident of NCTM.
Him and some colleagues haveput together some like text on,
like math for social justice andhave used some of these very
similar problems, but it but itwas like a supplementary type of
thing.
It's not like an actualcurriculum.
(23:11):
Um, let me not say like it's not, a it's not like a standalone.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
It's not like a standalone curriculum right, you
can use this to.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
You know what you are doing or whatever, but you guys
, this is a standalonecurriculum that is built into
the, for example, seventh gradecurriculum.
So I think having those type ofproblems there are great.
Here's the thing If you stillhave to train the teacher, like,
you still have to train theteacher and you still have to, I
(23:42):
think, create a learningenvironment where having these
types of critical conversationsor more courageous conversations
are normalized and kids feelcomfortable because you could
try to use these types of mathproblems and they can, like go
to the left and kids that mightbe a part of certain communities
(24:06):
or even discover, like theirdiscoveries of solving math
problems, for example, thatblack women are like the lowest
wage earning people.
That might, if you haven't setthe atmosphere, if you haven't
set an environment where kidsare engaging in these things
like all the time and you'vebuilt a respectful and honest
(24:28):
community, even having thosetypes of problems could, they
might not go well.
So, I'm not saying that you canjust do it and just, oh my God,
pick up your book on Monday andgo there.
No, there's still a lot of workthat has to be put into it, but
at least the problems are therethat are a part of the
(24:48):
standalone curriculum.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Yeah, and you can build that community around.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
I love it, that's right and build that community
around it.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, I think that that's one of the things that we
definitely realize at CPM isthat the curriculum, the
curriculum is not enough.
Right by itself, the curriculumis not enough.
The curriculum can do a lot andit can help and it can support,
and if the teacher isn'tworking counter to the
curriculum to try to do thosethings right, that it's
(25:20):
supporting the teachers in thosethings.
But the teachers are still theones who make the differences.
Who do it, how they implementwhat they implement, how they
create, design their classroomand learning environment yeah,
Makes the difference.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Absolutely, and I do wonder, like, in what ways do so
?
for example, I have a paperunder review right now and I
probably shouldn't say the title, because if somebody is the
reviewer, but, anyway, what Ilearned is that there are
particular instructionalstrategies in math that Black
(25:53):
girls really enjoy, and one ofthose is group work.
It's like small group work withother classmates as well as
like with the teacher, and sowhen we try to probe about, like
well, why, it goes back to thatsocial and academic integration
, being able to talk, being ableto share the load of the
(26:18):
cognitive thinking.
That's not how they describedit.
That's how I'm describing it.
No, because when they say thingslike well, if I don't
understand, I can go to one ofmy group members and they can
help me figure out what I missedor what I don't get, or
whatever, and that's just reallypowerful, like it kept coming
up over and over and over andover again that small group work
(26:41):
was something, a particularstrategy that they enjoyed and
said that that particularstrategy better helps them learn
.
Now I don't have any evidenceor any data about, like, how
their teachers said all that,but those are the types of
things that they talked aboutand they actually looked at like
(27:04):
cue cards.
So it's not like I went in andobserved these students.
They were looking at cue cardsthat had different types of
strategies and pictures of whatwas happening.
So I think it's important to saythat because I don't know how
teachers, teachers set thosethings up for them to then
articulate that that wassomething that they liked.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Well, so what are some of your future things
you're looking at?
Where are you going from here?
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Well, I am working on writing up my paper that will
talk about how I developed andvalidated my math identity
measure measure out there.
(27:55):
Well, there was like onemeasure out there that was
pretty good.
Things that shape someone'smath identity are things like
interest, your competence andrecognition, and we know from
some preliminary analysis thatrecognition is huge for Black
girls.
So if you want their identitiesto increase, having them feel
recognized where they recognizethemselves as a strong math
(28:17):
student, are things that we cando to shape.
So I co-designed that measurewith adolescent Black girls ages
8 through 13.
And when I say co-designed,basically I wrote up the
statements and then did a bunchof cognitive interviews, sat
side by side with them and theywent through each and every
(28:38):
question and gave me feedbackLike what is this question
asking?
And so we had questions aboutmath identity, but we also had
questions about barriers,intersectionality barriers, and
we had questions aboutintersectionality assets, which
those assets were trying to getat.
What are those things that areimportant for black girls?
What are they bringing to thetable that they can use as a
(29:01):
resource that can help themlearn math, and this idea of
like collaboration and workingwith other kids, and that just
that was really salient, and soone of the big pieces that came
out was like this is how theyfeel a sense of belonging, and
so we added, for example, theconstruct belonging to the prior
(29:22):
measure to help us thinkthrough Black girls.
So that's what I'm working onnow is getting that measure
published.
It has been we presented, we'resupposed to present it at AERA,
but I'm not sure if I'm goingto be able to make it.
So that's the next thing, andhopefully, after we develop the
(29:44):
scoring guides, we can partnerwith teachers, because I'm
always getting people saying isyour measure ready and we want
to use it.
But if we can, partner withschools to actually use it the
way we designed it, any studentcan get and we branched inside
of the algorithm.
So, basically, if someone saysif someone is like a Latina girl
(30:09):
, they go down this path, Blackgirls, they go down this path,
black girls, they go down thispath and answer questions that
are related to Black girls andthey see the word Black girl, if
you go down this path, it sayssomeone that looks like me, so
it's the same question, but itdoesn't have Black girl in it.
And I needed to do that so thatI could walk in a district and
(30:31):
say any of your kids can takethis assessment for math
identity.
Yeah, so that's the goal.
And then, of course, after that, trying to figure out how to
develop professional development.
What comes out of the scores.
How do we then buildprofessional development for the
teachers, for the girls, forthe administrators, to then
(30:55):
actually address some of thethings that come up out of the
assessment?
Speaker 2 (30:59):
Right.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Right, that's like two or three years of work.
Speaker 2 (31:04):
That sounds amazing.
That sounds amazing.
It has been so great talkingwith you.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Thank you for having me, y'all, of course.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I love your passion.
I want to go teach Black girlsnow.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
Yay, you're going to have a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, no doubt.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
Well, I appreciate you guys inviting me to be on
the podcast, because it's alwaysexciting to share the work, but
it's always extra exciting whenyou're sharing the work with
people who you know are, like,committed to these ideas, and
I've been in CPM's life now forabout three years through.
Laura, and just seeing theevolution of the work and what
(31:48):
they've been able to do throughpartnering with me has been
pretty amazing, and I'm just sohopeful for what CPM can do for
Black girls.
Thank you, thank you for thatAwesome.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
So you have a great day you too.
So that is all we have time foron this episode of the More
Math for More People podcast.
If you are interested inconnecting with us on social
media, find our links in thepodcast description, and the
(32:22):
music for the podcast wascreated by Julius H.
It can be found on pixabaycom.
So thank you very much, julius.
Join us in two weeks for thenext episode of More Math for
More People.
What day will that be, joel?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
It'll be April 29th, national Zipper Day, and we get
to look about into the hugeroles that zippers play into our
daily lives.
The zipper is such aninteresting invention and I
think about how useful it is,things like that.
But often times when I thinkabout a zipper I think about the
(32:58):
snags or when it gets stuck orhow do I fix that, those types
of things.
One thing I remember at theNational Teacher Conference this
year is the gift bag included azipper and I thought that was
really great.
So I'm excited to look andvisit on April 29th and talk
(33:18):
about National Zipper Day.
Thank you, bye, bye.
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