A Bucket of Coal, with Les Jones

A Bucket of Coal is a rare opportunity to explore the life and career of Les Jones.  From the North Welsh coalfields, the pits and through the heartbreak of the Gresford tragedy, Les went on to receive a scholarship to attend Magdalen College, Oxford - taking his voice and passionate commitment to social justice with him.  In this podcast he shares some of his experiences and explains how he became a teacher.  His wisdom, knowledge and humour shed light on a range of topics including equality, global citizenship, wealth, wellbeing, academic life, love and and the eternal bonds of friendship.

Thank you to Rob Ford and Tatiana Popa for bringing this project to life.

Artwork - thank you to Shaun Slifer for kind permission to use his original artwork 'Original Redneck, 1921' - for prints and to see Shaun's work visit https://justseeds.org/product/original-redneck-1921/

Additional music - thank you to Dowlais Male Choir, Grimethorp Coliery Band,  The Pheonix Welsh Male Voice Choir, clip from “How Green Was My Valley” thanks to Rick Davi.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
[inaudible]

Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm the director of heritage international school.
Um, I'm a lifelong learner,thanks to Lez.
Um, I've known Lez since thetender age of 11.
Um, when I was, uh, a new schoolstarter at secondary school in
1984 at the height of theminer's strike.
And, um, we had our firstwoodwork lesson and, uh, Les

(00:33):
come and met us all.
And we hadn't met charismaticteachers that sang to us and, uh
, shepherd us along and made ahuge performance of getting our
aprons on and how we're going toenjoy creating.
And, um, I mentioned about atool that has had that my dad
has got one in the, in hisworkshop at home and, uh, less

(00:57):
quick as anything said, Oh,well, I suppose he's got this
huge bourgeois middle-classgarage full of tools and
everything from black andDecker.
And, um, there are many momentsin Leslie's life when he's
stumped for words.
Um, and I said, no, no, hehasn't because he's on strike.
And Les said, um, Oh, where'sthe on strike?
And I said, well, he's a coalminer.

(01:18):
He's one of the sort ofremaining Shropshire coal
miners.
And, um, he's a trade unionleader and he's, and, um, later
on that day, I was in a sciencelesson and Les came by and, uh,
the science teacher was tryingto calm the class down.
And Mr.
Jones, Mr.
Jones had already made hislegendary Mark on our class,

(01:39):
which was to last us throughschool and he had a card and, uh
, he had some money in the cardto my parents.
And, uh, I still remember theinscription cause it said to, to
Jim and Mark, um, it's peoplelike you, we look up to and need
to keep on fighting the fight.
And he said in the card, pleasehave yourself a good mail app.
Cause he knew that, uh, theywere involved in this struggle

(02:01):
for their communities.
And of course they put itstraight into the strike
hardship fund.
Um, let's, let's, what's theteacher you could go to.
I mean, everybody has shoutedwhen he walked across the school
, um, wanted to sort of show thehim what they were doing.
Tell him a story from theweekend, even now when I I'm 26

(02:23):
years of teaching.
Um, and I'm here because oflast, we're all here because of
our good teachers.
Um, when I think back to theengagement and how people would
run to that lesson and the bossin that lesson and being allowed
to fail in the atmosphere thathe created in his pedagogy.
I mean, you can't coach that inanybody that, that that's just a

(02:45):
natural way of somebody whowants to bring the best out of
young people is genuinelyinterested in them, authentic
stories.
I mean, everybody I speak to whoremembers less remembers the
tidy up at the, nobody wasallowed to go into it.
All the chisels were back in thehacksaws and the place was
cleaned up.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
And we will tell him that that's tell the joke.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
And even in those days less, um, always, uh,
fighting for social justice andequality that it couldn't be
sexist.
It couldn't be racist.
It couldn't have bad words in.
Um, and so we'd all lined up forthis sort of end of lesson and
the atmosphere he would createand people telling the jokes.
There was a wonderful poster inthat room.
I always remember an equalopportunities commission poster

(03:30):
of a girl with this wonderfullong hair with the strap line.
I wish I'd been born a boy andLes would always make sure that,
you know, we treated each otherwith respect.
I mean, those lessons areinstilled into us from a young
age and he allowed us to growand he allowed us to lead.
We had a wonderful sideline inmaking fireside irons for posh.

(03:51):
Middle-class had teachers anddeputy head teachers farmhouses,
um, from the workshop, very,very good lucrative market there
.
It was, it was the age ofThatcher.
Greed was good.
Um, well for some, um, and the,you know, the, the, this is what
was left with me, this, this,this very strong relationship

(04:13):
for values-based approach.
You know, this was a, this was atough former mining town
aspirations were, were low.
Um, not many people went to thelocal college that alone even
thought about university.
And one last gave me my firstsort of challenge reading, which
was George Orwell's the road towork in peer and the inscription
carry the flame, defend the weak, you know, really set me on a

(04:36):
journey.
Um, you know, Les had been givenbooks by his tutors and the
ambition of reading the Carnegielibrary in Wrexham, um, and
really that love of learning.
And I feel that, you know, eventoday we still discuss a new
idea or a new piece ofliterature or film or, you know,
with his creativity and his art.

(04:58):
Um, there were some strange kindof moments where we've both sort
of spoke at, you know,significant times.
And I remember when John Smith,the labor leader died in 1994,
just on the first of my exams,my finals at the university of
York.
And I'm there because of less.
And that's nice spoke about whatthe loss of someone like John

(05:20):
Smith, who isn't reallyremembered very much these days
as a labor leader and the bestprime minister potentially.
We would never, we wouldn't, youknow, we never had.
And, um, you know, these, theseare the things you remember and
the, and the, you know, what I,what I still take from Blais is
this absolute love and passionfor learning and for knowing

(05:41):
more, and that sort of Socraticidea of we're wise, because we
don't know what you know, um, weneed to know, or w we, we need
to keep the process of learning,continuing all the time.
And, um, you know, ourfriendship and our love is
injured.
I mean, he's, he's my adoptedfather.
He, um, is, is the grandfatherto my children.

(06:03):
Um, you know, the father to, tomy wife, we, um, you know, we
build our families, we built ourcommunities.
And I think the model that lendsus that lens is preached and
practiced all these decades, um,is one that we can take forward
with hope that it is in ourfamilies, in our communities,

(06:24):
that we find our strength, wefind our ideas, we find our
support.
And I think that really is whatit has meant to me.
And I'm very fortunate.
And I think anybody in anyprofession in any sort of walk
of life, having someone to coachand mentor you and to tell you
things you don't want to hearsometimes uncomfortable truths.

(06:45):
Um, Les has done that to me onmany occasions and made me think
about the direction of thedecisions that I've made in my
life or the way that I'veapproached something.
And I think that's really thebuilding blocks, which are
timeless, you know, matter nomatter what the technology is,
um, or the zeitgeists of theage, that's how our humanity
progresses and goes forward.

(07:06):
And that's the hope for all ofus.
And I think in this crisis, youknow, when I hear that less is
mentoring and coaching, youknow, two lads for Oxbridge in
his garden, socially distance,but challenging them and talking
to them and being that goldenthread all the way from, you
know, the sort of inspirationand the, and, and the stories

(07:27):
that made Les from hisbackground in the Northwest
whilst coalfields, you know,aspire to go to Oxford and to
share that love of learning, um,you know, that's hard for us all
there and hope for us all.

Speaker 4 (07:42):
Is that okay?

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Um, I don't know.
I've just read, I'm just readingfrom the script here.
I just, he likes to drink everynow and again, it's about a
small whiskey at Christmas.
I must have

Speaker 4 (08:55):
[inaudible]

Speaker 5 (09:04):
Hello and welcome to the multi-day taught podcast
today is a real special occasionbecause I'm going to be speaking
to less John's highlights.
How are you?
I'm fine.
Thanks for the invitation andfor allowing us to, to come and
record the interview, got a fewthings to ask.
The first question is what waslife like before teaching for

(09:25):
you?

Speaker 6 (09:26):
Uh, not very good.
It was working in a Foundry.
Uh, the only job I could get,which is ironic because the only
job my dad could catch when hewas 13, was to record on the
pets.
And the only job I could gas atthe time was to go into a
Foundry and work there was thereany job available?
So, um, that's what life waslike.

(09:48):
It was working in the Foundrycast, iron Foundry, but it was
one of historical interest.
It was Burcham Foundry, and, uh,he was the terrible crook, but
he was the founder of, uh, alsoBravo steelworks.
He fell out with his brother andalso did dealings with the

(10:10):
Quaker belt iron bridge, whichwas the origin of the industrial
revolution and, uh, iron bridge.
So it had some interest for me,right from the beginning.
So, although, although I wasdoing a very menial task, I was
nevertheless interested in thebackground I was in.

(10:33):
And I saw working man for thefirst time, uh, in action, how
the responsibility, the need tosupport each other.
And, uh, there were immigrantworkers are doing the fat, which
is a terrible job because you'vegot to stand out there with the

(10:54):
iron Duff's going around andswirling around the, but there
were some fairly good incidents.
And I learned a lot, uh, relearned a lot about people.
Uh,

Speaker 5 (11:04):
All right.
Were there any other reallysignificant moments when you
were growing up?
Anything that, that reallystands out for you?

Speaker 6 (11:10):
Yes.
One was because of the grasperdisaster, they, which was the
second biggest sing.
Kenneth was the first biggestdisaster in Wales, aggressive as
the second biggest disastercalled by Gwen Thomas, a
well-known broadcaster.
At that time, he called it anobscenity of orality called it

(11:35):
an obscenity of, uh, uh,capitalism.
Capitalism was hispronunciation.
Other is an Oxford Manny, but heread Spanish at Oxford.
And, uh, also noticeable that hewas so, um, I think he'd been at
college and he was so overall bythe dining arrangements that

(11:58):
he'd gone out to get some chipsand more or less left on chips
for three years.
He said, so he claims, butanyway, he was very outspoken,
very music man.
And that was his statement onthe grasper disaster.
Now that disaster killed 420 menfrom villages around Gresford on

(12:22):
grass with itself and Wrexhamand quad poise under lands and
so on.

(12:42):
Well, what happened is that the,it was known that the fire
damage was dangerous and theykept reporting it to the owner
and to the manager.
And, uh, he ignored, it ignoredthe results of it.
Uh, while the results were verybad because an explosion took

(13:03):
place and they were, the menwere locked in and factually a
tomb on the boss of the men onthat shift were locked and that
too.
And, um, they couldn't get tothem because of the fire.
Uh, I don't know thetechnicalities of it, but it had

(13:23):
, uh, it was stone dust and itexp the explosion was caused by
the stone dust as much asanything.
So there's no escape from it.
And, um, the men were tuned in,uh, and tapping away because
most of them had been many hadbeen in the army.
So they knew most called andthings like this, and you do is

(13:46):
communication.
And they kept tapping to tellthem they would sort of get them
out, but they couldn't get themout.
And then, then they're sealedoff the tomb.
So they died down.
Uh, and, uh, so it was a doublething, not the incident.
I remember when it first cameinto my consciousness was, um,

(14:07):
going with a friend calledNeville Edwards.
His father had died down thereand there's a huge collection.
The Lord matter of Londoncollected for instance, and, uh,
people from the Southcontributed huge amounts and
people from all over the worldall over the world contributed,
but certainly all of the Britaincontributed.

(14:36):
Imagine I have a van in 1933that's that's, that's the key to
it.
And, um, they, I rememberwalking up with my friend
Neville Eldridge, and he wasgoing to see this committee.
Now, I didn't understand what itwas all about now.
It was just raising myconsciousness for the first time

(14:56):
on this committee.
He would have to go before thecommittee and his shoes were
worn out and he was asking forsome money to buy some new
shoes.
Now, if you read LA Christ, thecandle for water to any time,
you will see the biggest problemfor an immigrant FA for a poor
family, not immigrant family,for a poor family, other shoes,

(15:19):
getting shoes and boots to work,to function, because you can
always cut down and, and, uh,uh, adjust clothing and so on,
but there's nothing you can doabout boots or shoes.
So it was going up to the UN, Ididn't understand it.
Of course at that time, wemust've been about 10 or 11,

(15:39):
something like that.
He went before this committee, Iwasn't there.
I just walked up with him to theplace.
And, um, he had to show hisboots and they're all learned
there's millions in this, inthis fund, by the way, uh,
absolute millions.
What exactly what happens to it?
What has happened to it since Ido not know, and not as anybody

(16:02):
else, I think, but the 40,000,uh, Crocs are taken over by this
time and had formed a committeeto dish it out, uh, to shut the
funds.
And he had to hold his boots upto this committee.
Remember is he's certainly alittle boy, rarely.
And, uh, he held up his bootsthere and they were all

(16:24):
murmuring and say, Oh, no, theycouldn't last for another month
or so, or it'd be all right.
Yes.
And he came away from there andhe didn't have any money to buy
his boots.
So it was not a very nice walkback home again, uh, cause his
boots were definitely leaking.
And as you know, with the whales, we tend to have quite a heavy

(16:46):
rainfall as it were.
So it was not a verycomfortable, but it raise my
consciousness, made meunderstand.

(17:09):
And later on when there was, um,I, a lifeboat in Cornwall, the
inhabitants of the lifeboat werekilled the man in charge there
said, no, it's not going to anycommittee are, know who I know
who is on that board.
And I know their circumstancesand they know who to give the

(17:31):
money to.
And I really applauded thatbecause that's what should have
happened with the funds raisedafter the grasper disaster.
But it never was.
The BBC has done a couple ofgood broadcasts on this and the

(17:56):
human stories.
They're quite, quite movingrarely because one lady talks
about her father going biking to, to grasp for the night shift.
And his son was going, it was inthe lamp room and was dishing
out the lamps on the tallies.
You had a tally when you wentdown the pet so that if your

(18:20):
tally wasn't back on the board,they knew you were still down
there and they would comelooking for you.
The rescue of brigade would comelooking for you.
But he was working in the lamproom, giving out the lumps and
taking the tallies in.
And, um, he, she said, he saidgoodbye to his father and then

(18:40):
never saw him again.
The father was killed down there.
So she was quite removing testsRenee.
She said, because they'd beendeprived of, of that and
deprived of help and deprived ofthe earner.
Of course, this was the, thiswas the really sad thing about
it.
They come from poverty to evenworse poverty, rarely.

(19:01):
And despite, you know, miningcommunities support each other
very much.
And you learn this from a veryearly age.
When you see a load of coal, Isee used to deliver it in those
days, a lot of coal pile outsideyour front gate, your mother
would say, a man would say, uh,take a bucket of coal for Sohn,

(19:22):
sort of take a bucket of coalfor so-and-so and you supported
naturally you learned right fromthe beginning to look after your
neighbors to support yourneighbors, just make sure they
would.
All right, constantly.
And it was a good lesson tolearn.
It's one you grew up with youdidn't, it didn't need any

(19:42):
explanation of it so-and-soneeds looking after.
So therefore you got to go anddo it.
You just, you did itautomatically.
It was part of your culture,part of what you were

Speaker 1 (20:13):
[inaudible] key to education.
How did you get involved in?

Speaker 6 (20:17):
Well, it was very good primary school.
I went to a there's 11 plus onFA pretty fierce 11 plus I
passed that.
I went to the local grammarschool, which I disliked
disliked intensely when Ifinished at the primary school.
And then I think grammar school,uh, eventually I managed to get

(20:38):
to Oxford, a scholarship toOxford.
Uh, prior to that, I went toRuskin and, uh, the entrance to
Ruskin in those days was byassay wrote an essay, but also
you needed a background to doit.
You had to show you didn'trealize it at the time, but you
have to show that you arecommunity minded.

(21:01):
Uh, being a member of the laborparty was, uh, an advantage of
course.
And, um, what you did, what youdid with the trade unions and
what you did to prepare yourselffor study is there.
And the trade unions at thattime run a very good educational
system that centered it in aplace called Pitlochry and who

(21:24):
produces a very good Wesco.
I might had a Pitlockery andoffice Scotland on East side
have never been there.
They've put on various coursesconstantly.
I was in an engineering unionfrom the Foundry and they put on
various courses, so you couldstudy.
And that's what I did.
I studied.

(21:45):
And we were very fortunate tohave a good local library.

Speaker 5 (21:50):
Maybe tell us a bit more about the, the scholarship
and, uh, and how that came aboutand what impact that had on your
life from there.

Speaker 6 (21:56):
Well, it was a culture shock to go to Oxford
and course lots.
There's a culture shock for themsometimes, and I did enjoy it.
I loved every minute of it.
There is there's more sunsnobbish place.
There's certain Freemasonryamong, um, students that all
arrived.
So anything, uh, anydifferences.

(22:16):
And, uh, one of my best friends,there was CRA eight, nine Christ
church.
And almost the opposite of me.
He was tall blonde had what Ithought was of the working class
height.
And, uh, it was a wild Heightsand a dark hat, but very
articulate, always prepared todefend him.

(22:40):
And, uh, because he was quitevulnerable, rarely, although he
was very wealthy and, um, ColinOliphants, he wrote, we wrote to
each other for the timeafterwards.
And he wrote and said, do yourealize less that, uh, uh, it
was, we were in a very dangerousposition as a murder every week

(23:02):
in Oxford.
And he said, but this chap Mosscomes along and solves them.
He said, but that's not muchhelp if you've been murdered.
So, uh, he was Greg great guy.
And, and as I say, he was verywealthy.
He was of the Tate and Lylefamily.
And, uh, his parents eventuallybought him a, a largest he's dad

(23:24):
.
Now, of course, but his parentshad bought him a larger state
and Inverness.
Uh, it took to the Kelton,although his, he wasn't, he was
from, um, cardigan squareLondon.
So he was hardly a Scot.
He took to the Kelton becamelanded, gentlemen, rarely, uh,

(23:45):
such as well.
And then I went on to be ateacher

Speaker 4 (24:07):
[inaudible] [inaudible][inaudible]

(24:27):
[inaudible][inaudible][inaudible].

Speaker 6 (24:45):
How did your view of education develop and change
during that time?
It's the main thing thathappened is that there's a
chance of a job and Africa andthat underneath the barefoot

(25:06):
talkers, not to be a barefootdoctor for, to, uh, work there.
And they wanted someone tolecture on history and
economics, English history, andeconomics, but also to work in
the field.
Well, um, I've always been acompulsive vegetable grower so
that it suited me eventually.

(25:29):
And I went to see a tutor I had,uh, and, uh, tough Evans.
And he had worked in the Sudanmost of his life.
And I qualify to be one of his,uh, sub one of his pupils
because I was from Wales, whichwas the equivalent of coming
from the Sudan, I suppose, asthey, they thought.

(25:50):
And, um, he said, you wouldn'tbe here asking advice.
You would be at home packing herbag.
So that wasn't the job for me.
And then eventually I realizedmy scholarship had run out and I
had to, uh, find some rent forthat, my digs in Oxford and so
on.

(26:10):
So there was a local job goingand having them.
And I applied for that.
I went along to the interviewand the headmaster, which he, he
did say to me, uh, you realizethis job will take off at least
two years because you've got, hewas starting the sixth form off.

(26:32):
And, uh, he also wanted peoplelower down the school in the
fourth and fifth forms, or therewere then I don't, I don't know
what the other dessert dividethem all now, but in the fourth
and fifth year to learn abouteconomics and politics.
So we wanted that one as well.
It had some great ideas.

(26:52):
It was the only state school atthat time, teaching Chinese and
a very good man from Gloucester,not a Gloucester Chinese.
He just learned it in there inthe outer half as a matter of
fact, but he taught the Chinesethere and it was always a marked
school, outstanding school,rarely fresh ideas, good ideas.

(27:13):
And, uh, I really enjoyed itthere for a time, but what
happened in the interview?
He said, you'll have to stayhere two years.
Well, I had another job, uh,talking about trade unions and a
radio job in Manchester, but,uh, that was obviously not
coming along rarely, but hesaid, will you stay the two
years to get the six phone setup?

(27:36):
And I did a sort of a Hancock onhim and looked him straight in
the yard and told a lie.
And I said, of course, andknowing that if there's a letter
for me from this Manchester job,when I got home, and that was
the art of politics, of course,is that you could lie and
looking straight in the eye anddo it.
And, uh, I did it that time.

(27:58):
I haven't done it since becauseI'm a Quaker and truth is the
most important thing you can do.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
So you've mentioned a few of your teachers there.
What makes a great teacher foryou?

Speaker 6 (28:11):
What I discovered for myself is that I'd been working
in the school for about two orthree months.
I can't remember exactly howmuch and, uh, the next class was
waiting to come in.
And, uh, usually I had some sortof introduction to the class,
like, um, some jokey type thing,like you're coming into a whole

(28:35):
of learning now, and it'sabsolutely reverence and all
this sort of business.
And it was all lightheartedbecause you have a lot of jokes
in school and a lot of good funin school.
People always forget that theyalways concentrate on the misery
part of it, the difficult part,and people always said to me,
art, how was the discipline?
I would like to be in school nowbecause our teacher used to slap

(28:59):
our ears for us and so on.
And I say, well, your daughter'sin my class.
I'll slap her areas.
Oh no, she's very good girl.
And that they always had perfectchildren, of course.
But, uh, anyway, um, this, thisclass was coming in and I
suddenly realized I was veryhappy and I was actually very

(29:19):
happy in the job I was doing.
And I thought this is good.
And it never, never actuallyleft me that I like taught in
various schools in the cityschools, grammar schools and,
and comprehensive schools.
But, um, that happiness neverreally left me until I packed it
in, in the end.

(29:40):
I was a senior teacher, but Isuddenly thought I was holding
forth one morning as I did.
And on the state of the unionand the state of the party,
mostly the Tory party, I alwaystook an iron Bevin's view of
life that, um, when he wasaccused of being a champagne

(30:00):
socialist, and he said, yes, Iam a champagne shortlist.
He said, I want champagne in my,and my fridge and a smoked
salmon.
And, uh, both things in.
He said, if they're good enoughfor the chops, they got enough
for the working class.
So I always took that view aswell.
What was good enough at theTufts is good enough for the

(30:21):
working class.
So I was holding forth as usualin my chair, and I suddenly
thought I'm going to die in thischair.
That's going to be my experienceof life, of just teaching in
this school, very comfortableschool, very easy school to
teach him well-run goodcolleagues.
And so on unusual ideas, we had,we, which we could exercise and

(30:46):
a wide range of people, many haddone other jobs other than
teaching, which was one of thesecrets I was asked.
What makes a good teacher?
What makes a good teachers torealize?
One thing is first from the, Igot this from the Quaker book of
faith and practice is that youcannot know everything at the

(31:10):
beginning.
You have to learn as you goalong.
So be prepared to learn as yougo along for one thing.
And secondly, you must rememberyour lessons have a syllabus
that you've really want to workto.
And this is in conjunction withthe more senior teachers, of
course, but you have yoursyllabus and then you see how

(31:33):
that particular lesson fits intothe syllabus.
So it, everything you do withthat day is relevant rather than
just drifting.
And remember whether you're areligious professor of history
at Oxford, or whether you are aschool teachers and just an
ordinary school, that everylesson is the same.

(31:53):
It's a simple thing.
What are you going to teach?
How are you going to teach it?
How do you know you've taughtit?
And that's what makes a goodteacher?
What are you going to teach?
How you're going to teach it?
How do you know you've taughtit?
What, what feedback are yougoing to get at the end, uh, to
know that what you've done isrelevant to the pupils.

(32:17):
Now, the other thing to rememberis that teaching is not
vertical.
That is to say you don't, itdoesn't come the fount of
knowledge.
Isn't you coming directly downto them?
It's it's um, it goes sideways.
And I learned this in virtuallythe first week I was teaching

(32:40):
because I was talking about thebank of England and its bank of
last resort.
And I spoke with such crystalclarity about it.
Anybody would understand thefunction of the bank of England
after I'd finished and somebodywas talking and I a good pupil
actually.
And I said, why are you talking?
I've just, just explained that.

(33:01):
And he said, no, he understandsme better than you.
So what you realize is thatthey've got their own language
and their own culture, no matterhow posh they are or not posh,
there, there are, they've gottheir own means of
communication.
So don't ignore that.
That makes a good teacher havinga good, clear syllabus being

(33:25):
well-organized and having asyllabus.
And that particular lesson isfitting in some parts of that
syllabus.
Otherwise you're just driftingin the ad all the time.

Speaker 5 (33:36):
Before you mentioned about the buckets of coal and
the lessons that it gave aboutthat idea of community and
sharing and helping each other.
There's a quotation here, which,which says those who thrive, act
out the proposition thateveryone matters.
And if we, if we accepted that,uh, what would the implications
be for teachers and schoolleaders?

Speaker 6 (33:57):
It's very, very difficult.
Really?
It's the modern of the mostdifficult things.
You difficult questions you cananswer to begin with.
And, uh, I really don't knowwhat the answer is.
There's no glib answer to it, toit.
Everyone does matter.
And I worked with a chopper, ahead teacher when I was on a

(34:17):
course one time.
And, uh, he called eras in SouthWales and he was a very unusual
man actually.
And he taught in a verydifficult area in Newport, in
South Wales with a very widerange of, uh, class differences
between people he'd have peoplethere.

(34:38):
They were children of lawyersand people out of the children
of Dockers and so on and saw avery wide social range.
And if anybody can there, thatwas really difficult to deal
with.
He'd call them God's childrengifted in other directions.
And that's as near as I couldget to talking about people and

(34:58):
saying they're gifted in otherdirections, but I don't know
what the answer is.
And I don't think anybody doesknow the answer there.

Speaker 5 (35:06):
Next question is related to equality and
inequality.
And, uh, just curious to knowwhat steps would you take or
suggest to address theinequalities that exist in the
world today?

Speaker 6 (35:18):
Well, I feel very sorry for Ethan.
The first thing I would do is goto JCB who make a conservative
contribution of eight, 8 millionor so per year to the Tory
party, so that we're lookingafter their chums and get a
Jessie be done there and dig upthese famous playing fields.

(35:40):
They've got, uh, take them upbecause this contributed to the,
the winning of Waterloo and theend of the Napoleonic Wars.
But also I think they should,uh, they would contribute again
to, I turned them into a lotmonths so that people could,

(36:01):
could dig and dig on the playingfields of Eaton and they would
be producing allotments.
So there were no need to feelguilty about being a charter or
state as they were beingchargeable.
There were the equivalent ofgiving the bucket of call that I
talked about earlier.
Cause it would have these great,huge allotments there.

(36:23):
I don't, I've never been toEaton, so I don't know what
they're playing field salami,but they're always reputed to
have won the Napoleonic war atWaterloo on the flame fields of
Eaton.
Uh, I don't know where thatstatement comes from.
Uh, well, let's see.
I should think

Speaker 1 (36:49):
What about creativity then?
What, what is creativity and be

Speaker 6 (36:55):
Another difficult question, but it's answerable
because part of creativity ishaving equipment.
Uh, I know one time I wasteaching about castles to an
adult class and, uh, they weremaking a castle and castles are

(37:16):
quite complex business.
We've got a lot of them in Walesas you know, uh, the ring of
steel that went around there.
And, uh, they were a dominatingforce in that painted white so
that whatever you went andlooked, you could see the
counselor.
And I was teaching this adultclass that, and they're saying,
I can't find this as a surgeon,he's got the glue and all this

(37:39):
sort of they.
And I said, well, that's whatit's like.
That's what it's like whenyou're in a class, but you're
not articulate enough.
You're not strong enough to dothat.
So a lot of creativity is havingthe stuff there to do the job
that you're going to do not go,not be stymied by the lack of
glow or the lack of scissors tocut something up or the wrong

(38:02):
tools, a lot heavier.
So you can't expect anybody tobe creative and teach creativity
without the certain equipmentthat you need.
Also, you need someone who, mywife, when she was alive, she
used to crochet beautifulcrochet work.
And it was quite interesting.
People would come up to her andsay to her, how can you net with

(38:25):
one needle?
So she would then show them.
And crocheting is not, I neverdid learn.
I must admit, but I don't thinkit's that difficult.
And, um, so she would showpeople how to do it and they'd
go away rejoicing as it were, orcertainly crocheting anyway,

Speaker 5 (38:45):
Well, wellbeing and mental health is high on the
agenda for teachers it's high onthe agenda for the profession.
And just for, for us, uh, youknow, in life in general,
particularly now during this,this period of crisis, what
advice would you give to anyoneif they're struggling or feeling
low?

Speaker 6 (39:04):
Well, I've suffered in the same way.
I think I'm quite a strongperson and I'm very
self-sufficient person with mybooks and so on.
I've always been a tremendousreader.
And, uh, my friend also fromAbbott house and he, he writes
me once a week when he's wellenough.

(39:25):
So I'm not short of contact orhinterland, but the isolation
suddenly got to me and I wasquite surprised really how weak
I was.
And so the only thing I can getaround it is humor.
What saves you very often.
It's just being amusing as beingfrivolous.

(39:46):
And the humor will, will take it, carry you through, but that's
not much of an answer to someonebecause someone from, with
bipolar or a schizophrenia orthis type of illness, I don't
know what the answer would be,but I don't know.
It'd be quite interesting to seehow much Liverpool suffers from

(40:10):
mental illness compared withother cities, because Liverpool
wants thing that always talkingto each other and then always
the Scouts Huma.
Sometimes you wish you didn'thave Scouts Huma.
You wish they'd just give you astraight answer, but they always
give you a funny answer tosomething, whatever it is.
And, uh, they've always got someMary Quip and so on.

(40:30):
So it would be interesting tocompare those two things.
And, um, I don't know reallythis strength of mind, as I
said, a few years back, I wouldhave said, well, you know, it
just depends on the characteryou've got or whatever it was,
the thing that's handed out toyou.
But I don't believe thatanymore.

(40:51):
I believe after, after Iexperienced it most often in
this COVID 19 lockdown, when Isuddenly found how weak I was to
defend myself against, um, wellmeld mantra illness, really
where I got really quitedepressed at one point.
But I had, as I mentionedbefore, I had a good hinterland

(41:13):
and the Quakers would in touchwith me.
And, uh, I was surrounded bygood friends.
Uh, people wrote to me, peoplesend me cards.
I didn't tell them any of thisthing, but they were they've
kept me going.
So I suppose the cultivation offriends as their real answer.

(41:35):
And when I suppose mentalillness means an isolation of
some sort.
So I suppose, you know, you'vegot to give them a bucket of
coal or whatever it is that willdo it C seek them out.
So I suppose you've got to watchout for someone who's Ty slated
and, uh, just make a friend ofthem in some way, the bucket of

(41:56):
coal syndrome, you've got togrow up with it, grow up,
looking after each other.

Speaker 5 (42:01):
Robert said something about a, a book and inside there
was a quotation about carriedthe flame and defend the weak.
Can you tell me a bit about,about that and where that was
from?

Speaker 6 (42:12):
Yes.
Carry the flame, defend the weak, what it is.
Why are you giving thisequipment?
Why are you being given thisequipment to be articulate, to
be clever, to get degrees and soon and so on?
So it must be some reason for it.
And that reason you either goingto make a lot of money and why

(42:36):
you should make a lot of money.
I don't know.
And what, you know, you can onlylive in one house at a time.
You can only swim in oneswimming pool at a time.
So why you need all that money?
I don't know all that accessmoney, what it doesn't give you
a safety or that doesn't giveyou safety from, from emotional
upsets or anything like this.
I'll give you love.

(42:57):
And you can't snuggle up to abank balance on, on a cold
winter night, you've been giventhis equipment to do something.
And the equipment from my pointof view is defend the week I
learned to be quite brave.
I wasn't at first, but I learnedto be quite brave and stand up
to authority and stand up topeople who are raw, who in my
opinion were wrong andmisguided.

(43:19):
So you defend the weak in thatsense.
And you defend the weekend as ageneral.
I mean, I'm horrified at peoplehaving to sleep in the street
and, uh, that haven't got enoughfood to eat.
I mean, just a terrible thing.
We run a food bank.
Of course, the quick to quick agroup, I blog quick, a meeting.
I belong to run a food bank whenwe deliver it to the salvation

(43:43):
army who distributes it, it justthe lady there in the salvation
army Newtown, Sam, she said onetime, it was the sort of down
and out to near two Wells thatwere coming.
Not that the, she used thosewords, she salvation army.
She said that, um, at one timeit was like that.
But now there were people, oftenpeople who were both working, I

(44:08):
knew were coming there and whathappens?
You can't cut down onelectricity.
You can't cut down on yourheating and winter.
So you cut down on food andthat's why they were going to
the food bank.
And she said, these perfectlyrespectable, hardworking people
still were not earning enough tobuy the food.

(44:29):
And that sense the way thesalvation defends the week was
to, uh, supply them with foodreally, and, and coordinate the
food banks.
Incidentally, my sister is aSalvationist.
I'm very proud of her, exceptfor one thing.
When I used to go for a walkwith her on a Saturday morning

(44:49):
in town, she would be, she usedto collect, I think she's one of
the last to collect money on theSaturday night, selling the walk
ride pubs, she'd go around thepubs and all the drunks.
And ne'er do Wells with,[inaudible] see on SIA tonight,
Betty.
And, uh, and I used to say,can't you find, Hey, get some

(45:10):
more decent friends that shoutsto you because she says, Oh,
they're just really wonderfulpeople.
And, uh, what a way to look atpeople is fantastic.
Really

Speaker 1 (45:26):
[inaudible]

Speaker 7 (45:31):
I would like to ask you a last, uh, what is think is
essential for students to learnin this globalized 21st century
world,

Speaker 6 (45:42):
Uh, to be articulate, not to use common phrases.
I can't, they're not allowed tosay uni to me.
They're not allowed to sayawesome.
They're not allowed to say allsorts of words.
They need to be articulate andthey need to like, there's one

(46:06):
question I, I put to them anOxford question would said, if
God is omnipotent, could he makeus, could he make a rock?
That's he couldn't lift nowinstead of saying, well, I don't
believe in God.
Anyway, that's not the answer.
You then share pop to it.

(46:27):
And you give a, you give acoherent articulate, answer to
it.
And there is not, there's no setanswers to these questions that
they are asking Oxbridge you, ortuck them in a very spirited way
and an articulate way.
Not using, I'm not usingshorthand like cool.

(46:48):
There's one chap was writing abutton and he said, this, this
man, he was interviewing thisboy.
He was interviewing only seem tohave two words like uncool say,
it's like, cool, man.
It's cool, man.
It's cool.
Really, really cool.
Like, it's cool.
It's like, cool.

(47:08):
And he said, if he would juststop saying bloody cool, he
would have all hundred playersjust to shut him up.
I think,

Speaker 7 (47:18):
Tell me what, uh, skills do these young people
need to acquire in order toleave.
In 21st century,

Speaker 6 (47:27):
There was a quick, I used to broadcast

Speaker 8 (47:30):
For many years on the radio.
It eventually died, actually notdied on the radio, but he, uh,
he, uh, and he said at the end,he was deeply religious
announcement.
Then what, what was the onething he should learn in life?
And I've always remembered hisarm.

(47:50):
She said, keep the drains clear.
And I thought that's a peculiaranswer.
But at the vote I've thoughtabout it.
It means that you've got to beable to run your household very
well.
And keeping the drains clear isone of them keeping things
ticking over because I heardsomeone on the other day said
she was complaining about herhusband.

(48:12):
And she said he wouldn't evenform the gospel board.
And I know what she meant.
Everything could fall back onher.
She had to do everything in thehouse, even following the gospel
to say the gas was off orwhatever it was, whatever the
problem was.
So I think one of the skills youshould acquired as a person is

(48:33):
how to run a household.
I was very fortunate with my mombecause I had three sisters, as
you know, yes, I remember this.
And she said, she said to me,they're not a service industry
for you.
So therefore I had to learn toclean, to iron, to wash and to
cook

Speaker 7 (48:54):
What a great Molly had mentioned this.
Um, so you always, when youmentioned your sisters, you
always called yourself afeminist, uh, many times.
Can you, can you stay, whoinfluenced you in becoming a
feminist?

Speaker 8 (49:14):
Uh, w one of, one of the public characters was, uh,
uh, was, uh, a labor politician.
And she said, uh, she said, donot worry about percentage
increases in your wages.
What you need to do is fight toget institutions, good schools,

(49:35):
good hospitals, good roads.
And she said, if you've gotthose, you've got everything you
need on that.
Increasing your wages willnever, never do your much good
because people will put up therewith their wages for 10% or 5%

(49:56):
or whatever it is.
They got to do it.
And 5% of a director's pay isdone site more than 5% of
laborers pay.
So, uh, that, that made methink, yeah, she's right.
And I've always clung to thatone.
That's, that's been the basis ofmy belief and socialism that we

(50:17):
should Institute good schoolsfor all good hospitals and
various things like that.
Good Roche, not just for poshpeople to go on their cars for
her good access, good railways.

(50:37):
And so on what Bevin used tocall the commanding Heights of
the economy and which you ownyour own water.
Uh, in Wales, we are wellsupplied with water cause we've
got a good rainfall, but we runa company called not for profit.
A company did do doers, watercompany as well as of course,

(51:01):
and it's Wales water.
And we run that for, and that'swhat you should own.
You shouldn't sell these thingsoff.
We've sold so many things offnow, uh, of, um, you shouldn't
do that.

Speaker 7 (51:15):
So unless if we speak about young people, I go back to
this again.
Um, can you say, well, um, youhave had your own child who, and
you see the young peoplenowadays, how they behave, how
they are going to use, say, um,if you're not this and the

(51:36):
differences between the youngpeople of nowadays and the young
people when you were a child,young person.

Speaker 8 (51:43):
Yeah.
Well, you, we will not allfamiliar with older people.
For instance, when you firststarted going to a pub, you
behaved yourself because thereare many older people, uh, there
was no youth culture as such,and you didn't get your values
from people equal to you gotyour values from older people,

(52:07):
much more stable value, Israeli,uh, of honesty, oud to behave
out, to behave in a pub, how tobehave in a cafe and so on.
But what does nowadays, they,they get their culture and
beliefs from each other, whichis not always good, actually
some are wise and some aren'tand some are well-behaved.

(52:30):
And some certainly aren't, thisis, this is what produces the
gang culture.
Of course.
So that's, that's what Ipreferred.
I preferred an age range and Icertainly prefer an age range
now as I got older.

Speaker 7 (52:46):
Um, so, uh, I want you to tell us, uh, how you
became aware of, uh, globalismas an idea.

Speaker 8 (52:55):
Um, well, Tom Payne, of course, uh, the father of
America always considered thefather of America.
He was a, his father was aQuaker or his mother was a
Quaker.
I can't remember what it wasnow.
And, uh, so he was a greatinternationalist and that thing

(53:16):
on the statue of Liberty, whichwas given by France to America
has, and all the, to prop uptheir, uh, uh, constitution, uh,
and focus them on freedom andthings like that.
And that give me your huddledmasses.
It says underneath is a directquote from, uh, uh, Tom Payne,

(53:37):
give me your huddled masses.
And also we had a firm belief atone time, which I still believe
capital won't go to the cheapestlabor source.
So people will always beexploited by, by, uh, the
capitalist system.
Well, what, what, what you needto do is instead of capitalist,

(54:01):
going to the, you educate yourchildren.
So that capital is forced tocome to, like, Rob is really a
Hargreaves with a spinningJenny.
Uh, and I know that soundsoutrageously stupid for anybody
that knows English history, butI do believe that that if you

(54:21):
educate your people to such aleg capital will come to you and
you're in a stronger position tocharge them as you want.
Have I made sense too?

Speaker 7 (54:32):
Yes.
Yes, it does.
Of course.
Thank you.
Um, so if I asked you this, canyou give some examples of people
who, uh, inspired or inspiring,

Speaker 8 (54:44):
Uh, Jonah, the Bronte It's?
Well, she's one of my heroes andshe was, she fought off such
terrible thing and a terriblething at the end to happen to
her, to find out about hermarriage and, and, uh, Mrs.

(55:08):
Rochester living up in there andwas as mad as a Hatter.
Uh, that was a terrible thing tohappen to us.
So I would father Jane air witha nice ending.
Could you write a nice endingfor me?

Speaker 7 (55:22):
Well, we, we need to think about it less.
It is a good idea, you know,well, do you know, um, the book,
a wide Sargasso sea, um, duties,um, it is the same story, but it
is about Mrs.
Rochester, not about Mr.
James.

(55:43):
It is such a beautiful story.

Speaker 8 (55:46):
It is for cheap.
She is quite a girl in that.
Isn't she?

Speaker 7 (55:53):
Well, yeah, it is a time when she gets married and
how awful that was.

Speaker 8 (55:58):
And she attracts the man doesn't she?
This was the trouble.

Speaker 7 (56:05):
Well, the trouble with Mr.
Rochester in that story, uh,married for her, just for, for
becoming a Reacher, that's it?

Speaker 8 (56:16):
Well, they'd been told hadn't he to, to find a
wife.
He thought he was making a goodmarriage, disastrous

Speaker 7 (56:24):
Marriage disaster.
So, um, recently my daughter andI are watching the film and we
then E and it is based on thebook and the green Gables.
I know it's lovely.
Isn't it?
It is.
It is.
Yes, it is so interesting.

Speaker 8 (56:42):
What are you reading the book or are you watching the
DB?
It's very, very good.
Actually.
I love it.
And isn't the father lovely, andthat he is such a solid man.
And at one point he says to her,he says, I love you are part of
our family.

(57:02):
I love you.
And that's all, she reallywanted to be a part of that
family, part of a family.
And he says it to her and hesays it in such a nice way.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Where

Speaker 7 (57:21):
Do you find that helpful

Speaker 8 (57:24):
Young people?
They will, they will stabilizeus.
They will be fine not to worryabout the future.
They'll be there.
They'll do it

Speaker 7 (57:36):
To have a good future .

Speaker 8 (57:38):
Well, I think they will.
They'll work it out forthemselves.
They're all, they've already gota youth culture that is very
strong.
So one should just admire it.
Actually.
I mean, the youth culture I grewup in was one of a consumption
because for the first time wewere targeted, not because we

(58:02):
had a lot of money, but becausewe spent all our money.
So hadn't S uh, the sixties camein with clothes and the food
were targeted for the firsttime, simply because we spent
all our money.
It's not that we had a lot, butwhat we spent it all.
Whereas as soon as people getmortgages and other things, they

(58:23):
have to save that money for,they're not as easier targets as
the,

Speaker 7 (58:31):
I would like to know, um, what lesson has life door to
less one example?

Speaker 8 (58:38):
Well, one lesson that life has taught me, uh, well,
light is stronger than darkness.
That's one lesson I've learnedto be light is strong, is
stronger than darkness.
That's my spiritual life.

Speaker 7 (59:01):
Okay.
Last, um, one last question foryou.
What would you pass on to anyyoung, personal teacher
listening to this around theworld?

Speaker 8 (59:13):
What I would pass her people around the world?
Well, the one thing I've alwaysliked with it's always been
great luck with me is that thelanguage gene seems to have
gone, gone by with me.
I don't know what it is.

(59:34):
I was brought up in a Welshhousehold, but the headmaster
said at that time, my father hadno education.
Cause he'd gone down the petswhen he was 13.
And the headmaster said, youshould not speak well, should
whole manual.
Because if they come to theschool here, there'll be doing
Latin and doing Greek andthere'll be doing English, um,

(59:59):
part of phrase.
So my language eventuallyslipped away from me, which is
one of the great regrets I havebecause I never learned another
language.
And I think that the mostimportant thing is to learn more
than one language, because lookhow you are able to talk to me
now.
And it's fake.

(01:00:21):
I think learning a language isthe most important thing.
I mean, Jen is a absolutelyfluid French speaker and I love
to watch her speaking Frenchbecause she, they enjoy someone
speaking in their languages.
I enjoy you speaking to me.

(01:00:41):
And, uh, they, and she enjoysspeaking to them.
So it is an enjoyable process.
And I think if you teach alanguage, that's how you should
teach it.
That it's an enjoyable process.
And I think what happened isthat I knew somebody that
learned the language and, uh, helearned, well, she actually, and

(01:01:03):
although he wasn't Welsh and hesaid that he'd been, he knew
various words in Welsh.
Like I said, a he and a borrowedare, and the various words like
that pronounce a whole vow andthings.
But he said that once you'dlearned speak Welsh, well, sure

(01:01:26):
enough.
He said it was like, instead ofbeing in a paddling on the
shores, he could get out amongthe waves and absolutely what
swim among great, hugethundering waves of literature,
of wonderful poetry, because,you know, we are a nation of
poets and, and, uh, he said itwas like swimming in this, among

(01:01:50):
these thundering waves.
And I've never forgotten thatand I'd think, well, that's the
reason for learning a languagethat you can involve yourself in
wonderful literature of theother country and so on instead
of feeling forever limited byyour own country,

Speaker 7 (01:02:07):
Um, I would like you to, um, tell us how we, your
opinion does a day look like,well, the perfect day.
Yes.

Speaker 8 (01:02:20):
All right.
Uh, the perfect day would be ina garden.
I would be when I had my bigallotment, I had a double
allotment.
I don't know whether, you know,the allotment system in this
country, legally, we there's,some local authorities is
supposed to supply withallotment.

(01:02:41):
But what I used to love wasgrowing all the vegetables, the
peas, the, the sawn, and mysisters used to come to see my
allotment.
And, you know, I love my sistersvery much.
And they used to, he used to eatthe peas.
I used to grow all of them andwe've grown to over six foot
tall.

(01:03:02):
And you see the peas.
I know, used to think otherpeople would grumble, but I used
to think, well, if I just reallyeat them raw, take them home and
cook them.
But, uh, they love, they lovetaking anything off their
allotments and, uh, uh, uh,treating themselves to it in
that way.

(01:03:23):
And, um, that would be, my idealwould be by our Delta.
My sister's there, of course,which can't happen now because
my, uh, my oldest has died now.

Speaker 7 (01:03:35):
Well, I now understand why we are so good
friends, uh, because I lovespending time in my garden as
well.
And then do the mouse, therecreating part of the day,
especially if I am after a longday of work.

Speaker 8 (01:03:48):
Yeah.
It's wonderful.
Isn't it?
It does really new you andrefresh you.

Speaker 7 (01:03:54):
So I think this is all from me.
No more questions.
It was so lovely to hear youlast and spend some time
together.
I think I imagine where else,and when we feel the weird, uh,
the fields feel the way withdaffodils and, uh, snow drops
and bits of snow on the Hills,also,

Speaker 8 (01:04:14):
They do that's exactly it, but Moldova's such a
lovely country.
I've learned to love.
I've learned to love thatcountry who have our crushing
power.

Speaker 7 (01:04:39):
How about a message then if you were going to give a
message to somebody who was juststarting their teaching career,
now, what would you say to them?

Speaker 8 (01:04:47):
Um, well, my message would be for young people and
for people starting a career,fight your own battles, fight,
whatever battle you've got andfight it with courage because
everything will come all rightfor you.
And, but don't fight battledfrom the past.

(01:05:10):
This was one of the mistakes Ithink, uh, I made, I wanted, I
want my father give up the sonto put food on our table from
down the pit, not the fooddidn't come from down the pet,
but you know what I mean?
And I was always wants you tofight, fight his battle on the

(01:05:30):
strength of, um, I was aMethodist before I was a Quaker.
And, uh, one of the thingsthey've got from there is that I
think it's Ecclesiastes is I'mnot quite sure which the, the
father eats sour grapes and theson's teeth are set on edge, but

(01:05:53):
my father didn't want me tofight his battles for him.
He was quite capable of fightinghis own battles.
He joined the union, he was asactive as he needed to be.
And then, although he was not agreat political animal and, uh,
but you need to fight what yourcurrent battle is.

(01:06:13):
For instance, uh, I, I teach hera couple of young chaps now, and
one of them started talkingabout the loan system and you
know, this, this, uh, businesswhere they say, uh, Oh, I don't
want to end up in debt, go tothe university and ended up in,
actually they say, go to theuni, which I can't a word I

(01:06:36):
can't stand.
Actually.
They're not allowed to say uniin my tutorials and they're not
allowed to say, um, awesome.
And they're not allowed to saycool.
Uh, I think they've got to be abit more articulate than that.
And, um, but I say to them, uh,I asked them about this loan

(01:06:59):
business of, they said he gave avery good answer.
Uh, the one chap I was talkingto, and he said, it was a very
good system that first you don'tpay it back until you you're
earning certain amounts.
And then although they, theywill add interest to it.
And so on, it's still, it wasstill a good bargain to cath.

(01:07:20):
So instead of moaning and sayingabout how awful it was that
you're going to end up in debt.
And I have pointed out to peoplein the past that if you don't go
to university, nevertheless,you've got, I mean, you will get
into debt because you got to,you want to buy a car.
You want to do certain things.
You want to go on lovelyholidays and things like that.

(01:07:44):
So you couldn't have borrowedmoney anywhere.
So your chances of being in debtby not going to university is
just as high as you're going touniversity.
But I thought that was quitegood that he analyzed what was
happening to him.
That at that time, rather thanto, um, uh, repeat, you know,
Oh, it's awful.
You would get into debt.

(01:08:05):
And so on.

Speaker 5 (01:08:07):
What about advice then to, to a student to who's
just about to start college?
Uh, I think in my own son rightnow, uh, what would you say to
him?

Speaker 6 (01:08:19):
Join everything.
Just join, go along, join thereligious group, see what
they're up to join the writinggroups, to see what they're up
to join everything.
The opportunity is there.
And you, as I've said, you getyour education.

(01:08:43):
It is a hot as on coal, it'slateral, it's not vertical.
So the more you are with peopleand exchanging views the better
your education beat.
It's no advantage to anyone, toa student, to the college, or
what have you for you to go andsit in the library for three

(01:09:04):
years, vegetating.
So catch get yourself around,get yourself active, uh, play
sport, whatever sport it is.
I played football for thecollege and, uh, I played
cricket for the college.
Well, I said it was cricket.
It was a team on a Sunday night.
They went around and we playedvarious villages, village greens

(01:09:28):
on the village green and, um,err respective of, uh, the match
dif it always ended at half aseven when the pubs opened.
So by eight o'clock, we were topnote singing.
And, uh, I happened to have awide range of Oxford songs and,
uh, of rugby songs and weldsongs.

(01:09:49):
Of course we were, as I say,within half an hour, we would be
top note and it was mostenjoyable.
The cricket didn't matter.
It doesn't matter whether youget runs and so on.
And so it's a wonderful,interesting game, like, uh, like
a game of chess in whites.

(01:10:09):
Um, but nevertheless, it gaveyou, I, I traveled all over
Oxford, whether it's in somebeautiful villages, uh, I mean,
I love whales and I love the,the villages around here, but,
um, I learned to love those downthere to, to try to be as
open-minded, as I could not totake my class prejudice

(01:10:33):
anywhere.
And I have plenty of that.
I nurture that very often.

Speaker 5 (01:10:40):
It can be hard for children, young people or anyone
really, but especially in thedigital age where there's so
much judgment and so much, somany reasons not to get involved
or take up a course or, or agroup.
So what if somebody was nervousabout that as somebody who was
worried about, uh, you know,about taking the risk or being

(01:11:02):
involved, how might theyovercome that?

Speaker 6 (01:11:05):
Yeah, it is.
It is.
I mean, I find it hard now whenmy wife died, I had to turn up
to choirs to sing

Speaker 8 (01:11:14):
And Kwanzaa.
I didn't know people are people,I didn't know.
There's one called wild angelsplayed locally and they were
pretty wild, but I turned upthere and did it and it takes, I
know exactly what you're talkingabout.
I took even with myself-confidence, it took, took
everything I had to actuallyturn up every week and do it,

(01:11:35):
but I did.
And I think the only thing youcan do is attach yourself to
someone or like me with plentyof confidence, plenty of brass
neck, and you'll do it that way.
And your math to sacrificeyourself a little bit to them.
And as much you may have tosupply the transport or buy them

(01:11:56):
a bed afterwards or whatever itis, whether it be a financial
thing, but attach yourself tosomeone like that, select one
out there's always one or twoaround in a place.
So do that.

Speaker 5 (01:12:09):
Uh, how about artwork then?
What what's art men to, whatdoes it meant to you?
What does that meant to yourlife?
You know?
Yeah.
Tell me a little bit about,about the impact that, that,

Speaker 8 (01:12:18):
Well, my first love is poetry and my love of poetry
is RS Thomas at the moment, uh,a very difficult and awkward
man, but wonderful poetry writesand, uh, uh, is such steps of
meaning.
And he lived, he was a minister.

(01:12:40):
Eventually he moved to St.
Peninsula.
Uh, it, it left locally as well,but I never met him, but he, and
it was painting interpretating,interpreting his work that
spurred me on, um, for, um, likedeath of a peasant and things

(01:13:06):
like this.
So moved me.
I'd also done coach slice underMel cord.
I did several paintings of thatbecause it was one of the first
things, uh, I wanted to do.
And also a Fern Hill.
I was talking about educationearlier.

(01:13:28):
I used to go to WLA classes, uh,organized by the WEA with the
workers educational association,which doesn't it still
functions, but I don't thinkit's as active as it was.
And we had a tutor that he wasdown from Cambridge, brilliant
man, Tony Dyson.
And he used to travel fromBangalore across the whole of

(01:13:52):
North Wales.
And, uh, he, um, the first Iheard Fern Hill a poem of
international status and very,very moving point though.
Those that don't know it's an, Iwanted to paint that as well.
So it was the inspiration camefrom elsewhere.

(01:14:16):
Uh, I mean, I would love to dopainting golf.
Um, something of Jane Eyre whowas one of my heroes on our show
came such so many difficulties.
And then to have that mostterrible thing to happen to it
at the end of a promise ofmarriage after being convinced
that he did want to marry herand then that to happen.

(01:14:40):
Anyway, if you don't know whatI'm talking about, read Jane
Eyre, you're, you're become ahero as well.

Speaker 5 (01:14:48):
So close the interview.
Then there anything else thatyou'd like to share?
Um, anything that we haven'tcovered so far,

Speaker 8 (01:14:56):
You've heard all of the Gresford disaster on the
terrible price.
It was paid 420 Paul Colliers aswell, lost three men.
Oh, the rescue brigade.
My biggest contribution, I thinkto Oxford, apart from playing

(01:15:19):
soccer, I suppose for, uh, thecollege was that I taught my
year group to sing that song.
And, uh, in the pub, we used togo to the East gate and be at
the back there, the back barthere and the, the singing would
come really good actually aftera time.
And that was one of the songsthey loved to the shot fired to

(01:15:42):
Tomlinson cried.
If you below that shops will beall blown to hell.
Nobody could say that he liedand various lines like that in
it.
And my friend Arthur was downfrom Wrexham to visit me at the
college.
And he went across to, uh, hewent to Malden on your sense of

(01:16:04):
the poster I'm visiting LezJones.
And he said, well, he won't bein his rooms now it'd be across
that in the bar, in East gate,in the bar, the back bar.
So he came over and he waslistening at the door and he
could hear the aggressordisaster.
And he said, Les Jones is inhere.
Cause it was always one of mysongs that I'd song at various,

(01:16:24):
uh, welfares and things likethat.
Well, we all knew it's actually.
And, and, uh, uh, it's it'sbecause some of these songs, you
must remember, there were like,um, battle cries that da-dum,
da-dum lockout, the blunt tiredexplosion and so on.

(01:16:46):
And so they're like we sang themlike accusations that people
that look at the look at the waywe have to live, look at the
easy life you have of it.
And so on spread your wealth,spread your wealth

Speaker 5 (01:17:02):
As it's been the complete privilege to have the
interview today and to capturesome of your thoughts.
Um, I hope we do it justice.
I'll put it together an episodeand be able to share that, but
thank you so much for theinvitation and I really
appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (01:17:23):
[inaudible] [inaudible][inaudible]
[inaudible][inaudible][inaudible][inaudible] hi, Ned.

(01:17:45):
[inaudible].