May 6, 2025 • 37 mins
It’s not a word-for-word doctrine in Scripture—but could certainty itself be sinful? That’s the bold claim made by Brother Lawrence in the Oscar-winning film Conclave. More than just stunning cinema, this moment from Ralph Fiennes’ character ignites a deep conversation about faith, doubt, and the danger of dogmatism.
In this episode, we unpack one of the film’s most provocative scenes and explore what it reveals about the modern Church. We’ll hear from listeners wrestling with theological tension, gray areas in Scripture, and the unsettling (but freeing) idea that not everything is as black-and-white as we’d like it to be.
Expect honest dialogue, fresh perspectives, and maybe even a little controversy. Come ready to think.
Our friend Jaime Buxton from The City Mission guest stars!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:30):
We talked about the movie conclave because all four of
us have become major fans, and we're offended that Jamie
hasn't seen it.
S2 (00:35):
Yeah, you really need to. It's one thing for three
of the four of us to be obsessed about something,
but once you get Ron, you know it's good when
Ron is hopped on.
S3 (00:43):
And I am. I'm obsessed.
S1 (00:45):
I'm not.
S3 (00:46):
Obsessed. It is.
S2 (00:47):
So good. Jamie, you have to watch it.
S3 (00:49):
All right?
S1 (00:50):
Yeah. I don't know that you've been obsessed like you've
said that before.
S2 (00:53):
It is literally the best movie that came out last year,
if not probably one of the best movies that's come
out in ten years. It's amazing all the time.
S3 (00:59):
Yeah, it's it's been a while since I've been obsessed
with something, some entertainment form. But this this movie qualifies, and.
S1 (01:08):
I'm not certain all four of us have ever been
on board with something like this.
S2 (01:10):
Right? Yeah. No, we all have very different interests. So
for all of us to really love something, you know,
it's big.
S1 (01:15):
And so we got a ton of comments because we
zeroed in on one speech from the dean of the
College of Cardinals in the film, Dean Lawrence, played by
Ralph Fiennes. Okay. And he talked about a sin that
scared him more than any other in this film. It
depicts the selection of a new pope, and so it's
very apropos, as they say in France, I believe. And
(01:36):
it means something like appropriate, timely, something like that. At
least that's what the French say, and that's.
S2 (01:41):
What they say.
S1 (01:42):
So he talked about a sin that scared him, and
I'd never heard of this sin. So we're going to
listen back to the speech now to give you some context.
And then we'll get into a discussion about it. Take
it away, Ron.
S4 (01:55):
Let me speak from the heart for a moment. Saint
Paul said, be subject to one another out of reverence
for Christ. To work together and to to grow together.
We must be tolerant. No one person or faction seeking
to dominate another. And speaking to the Ephesians, who were,
(02:19):
of course, a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. Paul reminds
us that God's gift to the church is its variety.
It is this variety, this diversity of people and views,
which gives our church its strength. And over the course
of many years, in the service of our mother, the church,
(02:40):
let me tell you, there is one sin which I
have come to fear above all others. Certainty. Certainty is
the great enemy of unity. Certainty is the deadly enemy
of tolerance. Even Christ was not certain at the end.
(03:06):
Diamir Diamir. May I Abandonato he cried out in his
agony at the ninth hour on the cross. Our faith
is a living thing precisely because it walks hand in
hand with doubt. If there was only certainty, and no
doubt there would be no mystery and therefore no need
(03:31):
for faith. Let us pray that God will grant us
a Pope who doubts, and let him grant us a
Pope whose sins and asks for forgiveness, and who carries on.
S1 (03:48):
For now. A couple of quick caveats. We talked about
it earlier this week, so I'll make these very brief.
But of course we are part of Moody Bible Institute.
We're an evangelical organization. We certainly have theological differences with
the Roman Catholic Church. We certainly don't think that that
speech from a movie should be taken word for word
(04:09):
as any assertion of our beliefs or not, but it's
provoking of conversation. And we thought that idea of certainty
as a sin was pretty powerful. And so we wanted
to talk about it. So I hope that's a fair.
Is that enough of a caveat? Do you feel like
we covered all the caveats?
S2 (04:30):
Yeah, there's things I don't agree with what he said, but.
And that should be okay. Yeah. That's okay. We can
still talk about other parts of his speech that are
thought provoking.
S1 (04:40):
We listen to a speech a few moments ago where
one of the characters in the film said the sin
he fears most at that time in their work was
the sin of certainty, and we found that to be intriguing. Yeah,
that certainty would be considered a sin. And to jump
into this, we had a call we couldn't get to that.
Daria can summarize for us.
S2 (05:00):
Yeah. So this person was kind of upset at our
assertion that certainty could be a sin in certain contexts
and not a sin in others. Um, and just they
said it either is a sin or it isn't.
S1 (05:16):
Yeah. And there, um, there certainly are sins that are
like that lying.
S2 (05:23):
Well.
S1 (05:24):
Well, actually.
S2 (05:26):
Okay. So then what is one that is.
S1 (05:28):
Um, okay. Well. Adultery.
S2 (05:33):
Okay. Yep.
S1 (05:35):
Adultery. Definitely. There's no. No. So now we have to
go back and explain line quickly. What I would say
is that not everyone's entitled to the entire truth.
S2 (05:42):
There's also the the midwives in Egypt that were commended
for not disclosing that boys had been born or people.
S5 (05:50):
Um, during World War two, housing Jewish people and not
telling if, you know, the Gestapo came to their, uh,
house and was like, are there Jews here? Yeah. No.
S1 (06:01):
Even though what's interesting is Corrie Ten boom and her
family were convinced they couldn't lie. And so they didn't.
And one time a Nazi at their door was they
were like, yep, we've got them hiding here. And they're like,
ha ha. Goodbye. They like thought they were joking around.
But if you talk to Doctor Redlich about it, he said,
you always choose the greater good, and the greater good
is the preservation of life. Yeah, it's not the lesser
(06:24):
of two evils. It's the greater of two goods. Now,
Daria's example, off the air I thought was the best.
It's a little startling, but I think it's it's the
best example of this because the person that called was
very they didn't like the idea that something could be
sinful sometimes and not other times.
S2 (06:37):
Yeah. Brace yourself. What I said was, if you got
little ears, I apologize. Sex is not a sin. But
sometimes it is. In certain contexts it is not okay
in the context in which God has designed it. Not
a sin.
S5 (06:50):
Food, not a sin. You need it to live. But
sometimes it is. Gluttony is a sin.
S1 (06:56):
Money. Not a sin. But if you love it, look
at it.
S6 (07:00):
It's sinning. Drugs in some instances.
S2 (07:04):
What kind of drugs are we talking?
S6 (07:05):
Well.
S1 (07:06):
Let's talk.
S6 (07:06):
About this.
S1 (07:08):
I'm just.
S6 (07:08):
Kidding.
S2 (07:09):
A very big.
S6 (07:09):
Difference between.
S2 (07:11):
Tylenol.
S6 (07:12):
And she said, let me jump in drugs. I mean,
if you're prescribed some painkillers.
S5 (07:18):
Sure. Right.
S6 (07:19):
Because you've had an injury or a surgery, but then
to abuse them or to not have a prescription would
be abuse of that, right?
S1 (07:27):
So yeah.
S6 (07:29):
I'm like, don't make me question it.
S1 (07:30):
No, no no, you did great. And this ties to
one of one of the text messages we got said this.
And now I don't know the context of it, but
it springboards into something else. It says, I'm certain that
Jesus Christ died for my sins. I'm certain that he
rose from the dead. I'm certain that he wouldn't lie
to us. Me too. Here's what makes me sad, though.
(07:51):
When I see Christians living life outside of nuance, it
gets rigid and scary and sad. Like, I feel sad
for the person who got so upset about that.
S2 (08:02):
Yeah. I mean, we're not saying that there aren't certain
truths that are completely inarguable within the Bible. We are
not saying that. But if we really examine it, those
are actually not many. And there's plenty of others, as
we just gave you several examples where there's, um, some
nuance and some gray area and room for debate.
S6 (08:21):
It's a.
S5 (08:21):
Heart issue.
S1 (08:23):
It is a heart issue. And that's where even like
if you acknowledge the existence of poetry and nuance. Okay.
And then you listen to that speech from conclave again.
S3 (08:32):
Mhm.
S1 (08:33):
I don't think at all that the character was saying
that certainty is always a sin. I don't think that's
what he meant at all. If you would have asked him,
are you certain about who Christ is? He would have
said yes.
S3 (08:45):
Yeah. Correct.
S1 (08:46):
He was talking in context that he about disunity among
the cardinals, and that what was causing that disunity was
the sin of certainty.
S2 (08:56):
Yeah, there's a lot of, um, people that are vying
for the papacy in this movie. Um. Right. And they
all have. Many of them have skeletons in their closet.
And you find out what a lot of these are.
But they're all very prideful. They're all certain that they're
the best pick. And that's kind of what he was
talking about.
S5 (09:10):
You're like, don't go into this voting process certain that
you know exactly who it should be.
S1 (09:15):
And so what you can't do is take every word
he says. Exactly. Literally.
S2 (09:19):
It's not scripture. It's still a movie.
S1 (09:20):
And he was also using some. Yes, he was speaking
with nuance.
S3 (09:25):
Yes he was.
S1 (09:26):
And I think people sometimes do this with scripture as well, right?
Where they don't understand that you can take the Bible
literally true as literally true and not always take it literally.
S5 (09:38):
Well, yeah, people want things to be black and white
because it makes it easier. I'll just follow the rules,
and I don't have to use my brain.
S1 (09:44):
Because it's.
S5 (09:44):
Easier and I don't have to know what my heart
is actually wanting or desiring, or the things my heart
is pulling me towards because I just follow the rules.
So everything has to be black or white, or a
rule so that I don't actually have to know myself
and know what my heart's is being pulled towards.
S1 (10:04):
And now I think someone might have spit out their
coffee when they heard me say that you can take
the Bible literally. True. But some things are not literal.
S2 (10:12):
The entire Song of Solomon is not supposed to be literal.
The entire thing is a metaphor. I mean, if you
were to take what that book says as the ideal woman,
you'd get a very strange looking person.
S3 (10:22):
Yes. You would. Yeah.
S1 (10:24):
Yeah.
S3 (10:26):
They.
S1 (10:27):
I forgot about your teeth are like goats or whatever.
S2 (10:31):
Your neck is like a wall or something like that.
S1 (10:33):
Yeah, a tower, a tall tower, maybe. Um, and I'm
even thinking of when Jesus said as a hen gathers
her chicks. Um, so I wish I could gather up
the people that he's not calling himself a chicken. He's
not calling himself a woman.
S5 (10:45):
Separating the sheep from the goats. We're not actual sheep.
S1 (10:49):
Yeah. Which is, again, why life is so much better. Christian,
when you breathe and allow for nuance. Like in that
speech as well. There were things Lauren said she disagreed with, yes,
but she didn't go apoplectic and fall off her chair.
She said, I don't agree with that. What's next? We're okay. Yeah. 44054622554405462255.
(11:15):
There were other, uh, comments from our discussion of conclave
and the sin of certainty. Here's another one just playing
devil's advocate here, because I'm sure this is not what
you mean, but I'm sure some people are hearing unity
at the expense of principle because, okay, so when the
guy talks about the sin of certainty, he says that
certainty can get in the way of unity, as in,
(11:38):
if I'm so certain that you must observe the Sabbath
on Saturday that if Ron goes on Sunday, I just
can't be his friend. That is a problem. Okay. That
becomes sinful. It's like a no no. You can disagree
on minor points of theology and still have unity. Right.
And so what we are not saying is that unity
(12:00):
at the expense of principle.
S3 (12:02):
Right.
S1 (12:03):
And I don't know how people can hear that unless
you are so rigid. You don't understand nuance. Right. I mean,
no one is saying give up biblical truth when you
say certainty can be sinful, no one saying give up
on being certain on anything. Excuse me.
S6 (12:19):
No.
S1 (12:19):
Breathe for a minute. No. It's outrageous. I don't know
how people hear that. Like what causes someone to be
so rigid that what they think we're saying is. Don't
be certain about who Jesus is. Excuse me?
S3 (12:35):
Yeah, it's not that at all.
S1 (12:38):
But how do you get in a world where that
something you would presume.
S3 (12:43):
And you can be, you can be unified in, in
other ways, like in Medina, we can all come together
and and say we love the Christmas tree in the
gazebo on the square at, at holiday seasons. And yet
we can disagree about who we think would be the
best mayoral candidate, or how effective the police department is,
(13:07):
or whether garbage pickup should be on this day or
that day. There's there's things that that would pull you
apart from unity, that you set aside for the sake
of unity. There are things you can't set aside, you know,
in Christianity. That's what makes us the unique group we are.
S1 (13:27):
That's right. And that's what Jesus prayed for, that we
would be known by our love for one another and
our unity because of that. And like another example would
be just yesterday. So my my wife and her work
capacity has been had the opportunity to work with some nonprofits.
And she looked at me yesterday and she goes, because we're,
you know, evangelical. I've both been raised that way. She goes, Brian,
(13:50):
the Roman Catholic Church is doing such great good in
our community. Yes. I have seen so many things Roman
Catholic Church is doing. I didn't look at her and go,
are you converting? Did you just convert right in front
of me?
S3 (14:03):
You're now a Papist.
S1 (14:05):
Do you now agree with all their theology?
S7 (14:07):
Sarah?
S1 (14:07):
No. I was able to hear her and go. Yeah.
Isn't that wonderful? Tell me more about that. I didn't
see every word she's saying as a threat. And I
believed that she could have two conflicting truths be coexisting.
S5 (14:21):
We've had three texts come in from Rebecca Carroll. And
then another one. I don't have their name. All talking
about certainty really doesn't seem to be too far removed
from pride or its, you know, arrogance being like it's
the opposite of humility, being willing to be wrong.
S1 (14:39):
And I just almost like the word certainty better than arrogance. Yeah,
because people can deceive themselves in thinking they're not arrogant
and they're just certain that's true. And in a big way.
Like I see this in evangelicalism all the time. There
are people who, in their particular denomination with their favorite preacher,
(15:00):
have decided they've got all of it figured out.
S5 (15:02):
Yeah.
S1 (15:02):
What do you mean, all of it, Brian? Every finer
point of theology. And if you disagree with them, they
kind of scoff at you, and they wonder if you're saved.
And it drives me nutty.
S5 (15:11):
Yeah. Earlier this week on Wednesday, we talked with we
had a question for Doctor Melnick about eschatology. Like, what
is your stance on millennial pre-millennial post? Millennial doctor has
a very firm stance on what he is, but he's
not going to yell and scream at you about it because,
as he said on Wednesday, I'll show you where other
(15:33):
people say that they get postmillennialism from.
S1 (15:36):
And they're not idiots.
S5 (15:37):
They're not crazy. I don't agree with them. I think
it's very clear, he said. But this is I can
show you where they get it from, and we are
just all doing our best to interpret scripture.
S1 (15:47):
Yeah. And if you are so certain about all theology,
why do you even need the Bible? Why do you
need the Lord? Yeah, because you've just put yourself as
a co-equal to the Trinity. It's now a quartet because
you're in it, right? I mean, that's really, at the
end of the day, what it is. That's not a
barbershop quartet, though. Well, just like a regular one. The
(16:10):
movie conclave, which again, we don't, you know, give it
our 100% endorsement on theology, but the four of us
really loved it.
S5 (16:18):
Well, like you watch the movie date night, and I don't.
That's not my theology either. Like it's a movie. Just
because you watch a movie doesn't mean you agree with everything.
S1 (16:27):
Well, it's that strange tendency in Christian culture that if
you say you like a movie, someone presumes that you
give it your full 100% endorsement of all of it.
S2 (16:35):
If there's one thing wrong with it, we must discard
the entire thing.
S1 (16:39):
So all we're left with is that, you know, nothing.
S6 (16:42):
Nothing? Nothing at all. Really.
S1 (16:44):
Um, okay. So, uh, we like conclave. Interesting movie. We
just aired a speech. Uh, and did it earlier this
week as well, where one of the characters suggests there's
a sin of certainty. And we talked about the nuance
of that. He didn't mean literally. You can't ever be certain.
He's just saying that certainty in some can cause sin
among believers. And we think he's right. (440) 546-2255. We got Paul,
(17:10):
who's been patiently waiting on the phone. Take it away, Paul.
What do you have for us, my friend?
S8 (17:15):
Hey, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I'm involved
with two situations with lifelong friends right now. Uh, when
people get their doctrines and they're. They're certain that this
is the way it is. This is what the Bible says.
And they leave no opening for discussion. And the one is,
you know, Calvinism and Arminianism and. Well, the guy won't
(17:36):
speak to me for 40 years, 45 years I've known
him and he won't speak to me because he disagrees
with me. And I'm not, you know, real, uh, stout
on my position. I just like to discuss stuff. Right.
But some people like you, like you alluded to with
your eschatology. I mean, hey, I'm right, I'm right, and
(17:57):
that's the way it is. If you don't want to
believe the Bible, then I'm not going to talk to
you anymore. And I'm like, okay, and you're a Christian, right?
S1 (18:04):
And I'm so sorry your friendship ended over. You said
it was Calvinism versus Arminianism.
S8 (18:10):
Oh, yeah.
S1 (18:11):
I'm so sorry.
S8 (18:13):
Well, I mean, I'm still open to the relationship, but,
I mean, I took this guy through his divorce and
everything else, too, you know? And, uh, and it it
is sad because when people take the certain position, you know,
like you were talking about Doctor Riddell, he's got a position,
but he says, well, I can show you where other
(18:33):
people have this position, and that's the way I am,
you know? But, uh, I think some people take their
certainty to the point of destroying relationships. Yes, in a
lot of different areas, especially when it comes to disagreement.
They take their certainty in what they believe. And it
really honestly, I believe it does turn into sin, you know,
(18:57):
because until you make that relationship right, I have another
person that disagrees with me on something. They won't even
come and talk. There's no, you know. Come, let us
reason together. It's just. Hey, this is the way it is. And,
you know, I just don't. This this kind of stuff
is invading Christianity. And it makes me wonder, you know,
(19:18):
it makes me wonder about. And like you said, they
they take it to the point where, well, you're not
a Christian if you don't believe what I the way
I believe. Right. And I just think that's so crazy.
You know.
S1 (19:29):
I think it breaks God's heart.
S8 (19:30):
Also, I think the devil is trying to divide people.
And if he can use Scripture to divide people, he.
There's no law against him doing that right?
S1 (19:39):
There it is, Paul.
S8 (19:40):
And people need to agree to disagree, you know.
S1 (19:43):
And just find unity in Christ. Very good.
S8 (19:47):
Exactly, exactly.
S1 (19:48):
Thank you so much for the the call, Paul. I
almost said the Paul call. Whatever I call you. I
just won't call you late for dinner. Okay.
S8 (19:56):
There you go, my friend.
S1 (19:58):
God bless you, brother. All right. We got another call waiting.
Let's go to Cory. Cory, what did you want to
share in this discussion?
S9 (20:04):
Hey good morning. Good morning family. How y'all doing this morning?
S1 (20:07):
Good man. Glad glad you called.
S9 (20:08):
Good, good. Yes I saw I love you guys so
much for just bringing up this topic and being able
to just just have something that opens up discussion. Um,
you guys do that very well. Um, so, you know,
when I, when I heard it earlier in the week, um,
I marinated on what you guys were saying, and, um,
you know, certainty. And when you say it, um, initially
(20:30):
you think certainty is thin and and then just from
the basic level perspective, no, it's not right. But I
think you guys were saying, like, if it if it
marinates and it breeds and then you get into self-righteousness
and pride, that's when it becomes a sin. Because I
think we know that certainty just on a plain, just
level perspective, that it's not because, you know, certainty, um, with,
(20:53):
with Peter would allow him to keep walking on water. Right. Um,
and certainty with what God had told Adam and Eve
in the Garden of Eden wouldn't have raised out for
them to have the fall of man, right? So if
they were certain and believed that what God said. So
certainty in itself is not a sin. I think what
you guys are making a distinction of is that if
(21:14):
it breeds self-righteousness and that if it breeds pride. Am
I hearing that correctly?
S1 (21:19):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're not going to find
Paul listing certainty as a sin. Um, and I love
that you called for clarity. That's so important. And I
you know, when I heard that clip for the first
time when I watched the movie, I don't remember if
I paused it, but I feel like I paused it
and I said, wait a minute. Sin is a certainty
(21:39):
is a sin. I don't know, how do I what
does he mean? I had to really think through it.
And that's why I loved it, because it caused me
to really think deeply about what he meant and whether
it could be true and how I feel about it.
And yeah, so when someone is so certain about their
their view of how Genesis ought to be interpreted, that
they're willing to end a friendship over it, I think
(22:01):
they've reached the point of sin. Their certainty becomes sinful.
But I don't think the guy in the film meant
that you should never be certain. The opposite is true.
I mean, I'm certain about who Christ is. And so
you're you're right. In fact, I think someone else mentioned. And, Lauren,
you can remind me of this, that it sounds like
what they're saying is pride. He sounds like he's saying pride.
S5 (22:21):
Yeah. Being prideful or arrogant. The opposite of humility.
S2 (22:24):
Putting a different label on it so people really understand
how encompassing pride can be, I think.
S1 (22:30):
But the power of that speech was if he would
have said to this group of cardinals, my biggest fear
is pride is the sin of pride. They would have
been like, yeah, me too.
S5 (22:39):
Yeah, obviously.
S1 (22:40):
Yeah. Me too. All these prideful guys over here are
going to bother me. When he said it differently and creatively.
S5 (22:46):
They were like, wait.
S1 (22:47):
He made them think.
S5 (22:48):
Yeah.
S9 (22:48):
Yeah. And I agree. I agree completely, I just think
it's so for people who have discernment of nuance, I
think this is beneficial. But for those ears who don't
have that discernment of nuance and have you be able
to distinguish distinguish what he's really trying to say? I
think it could be dangerous. Does that make sense?
S1 (23:08):
Yes, I know what you mean by that. And one
of my goals is to help, um, set free people
who don't live in nuance because the Christian life, I think,
can be lived to its fullest. When you see, um,
when you don't just see black and white, you see
color and gray.
S9 (23:25):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
S1 (23:27):
But but yeah, I see what you mean. And I
guess there's some intentionality on my part, at least, to
poke the person who doesn't see nuance. I want to
I want to wake them up.
S9 (23:37):
Mhm.
S1 (23:38):
But yeah it's a little risky. So okay. Corey really
appreciate it brother. Thanks for the call.
S9 (23:44):
All right. Thank you guys so much. Have a great day.
S1 (23:46):
You too. And you see how. Oh yeah. Hold on.
Actually don't hang up yet Corey. I've learned hand signals.
I thought Dario was telling me she'd like a cup
of tea.
S6 (23:56):
That is what I thought, too.
S1 (23:58):
Really? Yes. I don't, I struggle so. Corey, you stay
on hold. We have maybe a mug to send him. Daria.
S6 (24:06):
Correct. That, that. That's what that was. That was mug.
S5 (24:08):
She's. Yeah. She's gonna get his info so she can
send him a mug.
S1 (24:11):
And I know why she's doing that. Because I like
what he did. He goes, I think I heard you
say this. Is that what you like? He's looking for clarity.
I don't need you to cheer for us. If you
want clarity, do it. Let's go. (440) 546-2255. Uh, how are
you processing all of this? My dear friend Jamie Buxton.
S6 (24:31):
Quietly over here.
S1 (24:32):
No, that's okay, I just I wonder what's going on
in your in your beautiful brain.
S6 (24:36):
Oh, well. Thank you. Um, no, I, I think I
am in, um, alignment that understanding that when I think
too much of myself or my, um, take on a subject,
that it is usually that I am falling into, not
a place of humility like that. It is of arrogance.
(24:59):
You know, I was trying to break it down because,
you know, I'm not a theologian. I, um, I like
things in simple terms. And so I was just thinking about, like,
if we just broke this down to how I treat
my husband when I am so certain that this is
what I said and how I meant it. And he
interpreted that different, how that like, causes a huge rift
(25:21):
in our relationship, right? I mean, hopefully it goes away quickly. Um, but,
you know, if I stay so certain with this is
what is right? And because I said so and this
is my take, it does damage. And how can we
not think that on a much bigger level than when
we interpret Scripture or how we are going to apply
(25:42):
Scripture and we are we have to be right, and
it's the only way how that is going to be
damaging to others.
S1 (25:49):
Yeah. It reminds me of when I, um, I first
started working at Moody. I was kind of scared of
the professors on campus?
S6 (25:56):
Yeah.
S1 (25:57):
Intimidated. I thought they would be, like theological, dogmatic meanies.
And then I got to know a bunch of them.
S6 (26:03):
Yeah.
S1 (26:05):
And we disagreed on some theology, and they were nothing
but curious and kind. I was just, like, taken aback. Wait,
you're not going to yell at me?
S6 (26:14):
Yeah.
S1 (26:15):
You know why? Because they love Jesus, and they don't
want to fall into the sin of pride in being
so certain that I'm wrong that they divide our relationship.
We're chatting about a more abstract but powerful concept from
a film we all liked called conclave, where one of
the characters expressed his concern about the sin of certainty.
And as we've discussed, it's it's not something explicitly listed
(26:38):
in Scripture, but what he was pointing to is that
division is caused on things that people are certain about
that don't ultimately matter. (440) 546-2255. Looks like we've got another call.
We've got Martha on the line. Good morning. Martha. Thanks
for calling. Today. What do you have for us?
S10 (26:57):
Well, I agree with these other people, you know, don't
get on your radio station and say certainty is a sin.
You're picking it apart. Okay. Because of pride. I listen
to you guys in the morning, so I have some
Jesus to start my day with. I don't want to
hear something that somebody's opinion because here again, look, it
(27:21):
says in the Bible that, you know, you shouldn't gamble.
So does that mean that I'm going to, that it's
a sin if I go and play bingo and can get,
you know, can win a dollar 2.98 and, and with
with a bunch of people just to have fun. Is
that a sin? We're not going to pick it apart.
I figure you guys are supposed to give me something
(27:43):
that I. That's in the Bible. I want to ask it.
Where does it say in the Bible? What book and
what verse does it say? Not somebody's opinion. I can
give you an opinion and say wearing red shoes is
a is a sin. Are you guys going to now
say that red shoes or people that have red hair.
That's a sin. I don't want your opinion. I want
(28:06):
I want to be able to walk away. Because when
I turn off the video, walk away with the I
got Jesus in my mind, I got I can even
share it with the person I'm going to go to
work with. That's my opinion. Okay.
S1 (28:20):
Well, I'm so glad you called Martha, and it sounds
like we upset you and that's not something I want
to do. So I certainly am so sorry that we've
upset you.
S10 (28:30):
Well, but how does how do the guys figure this out, personally?
From a movie on TV? Ain't nothing on TV. That's true.
It's some some dude's opinion.
S1 (28:45):
Well, you know, I guess there's a couple of ways
to look at that. Like, for example, you and I
may disagree on this, but like when I go to
church and I listen to a sermon, what I'm hearing
is a pastor's interpretation of God's God's Word. And I've
met plenty of pastors who disagree about how to interpret
God's Word. So at the end of the day, what
they're sharing is their opinion of what a passage means.
(29:07):
But maybe you disagree with that.
S10 (29:10):
No, but I can ask my pastor, hey, where is
where is is you know, you're saying that Christ died
for you. Where does it say that? Oh, John 316
I can open my Bible and go, oh, here. Okay,
I got it. But where can she say that? I
think it was Lauren. Um, where can she say that?
(29:30):
It says that in the Bible. Otherwise, it's just. It's
just an opinion. Well, you can stand on the street
corner and ask.
S1 (29:38):
Well, but, Martha, let me just jump in and ask
you this. Now, I don't think that everything in life
has a verse for it, but perhaps you do.
S10 (29:47):
Well, what am I supposed to Believe I live by
the Bible.
S1 (29:52):
Oh, I totally agree with that.
S10 (29:54):
Right. But but I tried to. Okay, I the thing is,
is what I'm saying is, is if is. If she's
just giving her opinion and telling everybody it's a sin,
then I can't be sure for anything. Nothing. Nothing at all.
(30:15):
I can't even be sure that the Christ died for
me because it's a sin. But now you're going to
pick it apart and believe you know. Well, well, I can't,
I can't, I can be sure of this, but I
can't be sure of that. But I can't be sure
of this. Wait a minute. I'll be sure of this
and this and this. Well, no.
S1 (30:31):
Martha, can I jump in quick? I'm hoping we can
chat about this because I think there could be some misunderstanding.
Would you be open to chatting about it a little bit?
S10 (30:40):
Yeah.
S1 (30:42):
Now, my my friend Lauren's here, and I think you're
talking about Lauren, so I would say the two of
you had a chat about it. Are you okay with that, Lauren? Sure.
So she's saying, as I understand it, Martha, you can
correct me here that, um, you're saying that certainty is
not in the Bible as a sin. And so, um,
but I don't know, Martha, would you kind of paint
(31:03):
for her what your concern is about what something she
said was, I don't want to misspeak.
S10 (31:10):
Okay, but you're saying certainty was a sin. But then
you turned around and said, but it's not a it's
not a sin, because I believe that Christ died for me. And,
you know, he was born, raised and died. Okay. Now
that part is certainty is a sin. So you're going
to pick all sins apart. Are you going to pick everything? Well, well,
(31:34):
you know, I, uh what's it say in the Bible?
You know, um, gluttony. Well, well, let's see, I can
I can go ahead and and, you know, eat this
and this and this and be gone. But but but
on Tuesday, you know, at 2:00. I know it's not
a sin. No, it's either all or nothing. And and. Okay,
(31:54):
I'm going to get on the radio and and.
S1 (31:57):
Well, hold on one second, Martha, I want I want
Lauren to be able to respond to that.
S5 (32:01):
Sure. I think in a lot of areas in our lives,
things can be sins if our heart is not in
the right place. So gluttony itself is not necessarily listed
verbatim as a sin, but greed is listed as sin.
Overindulgence is listed as a sin. And when you are
(32:23):
being gluttonous, that is being greedy, that is overindulgence. Drinking
too much wine is listed in the Bible or, um,
taking too much for yourself. Okay. So those all encompass
what gluttony would be. Though gluttony itself is not listed,
you can say, because gluttony is the background of gluttony.
(32:45):
The heart behind gluttony is these things. It's a sin.
And so we're saying is the same with certainty. Also
you're correct. Certainty itself. The word is not listed as
a sin in Scripture. But pride is. And not having
any humility is. And sometimes, if your heart is not
in the right place and you're certain about something and
(33:07):
your heart is just to be correct, or your heart
is to be prideful or to be arrogant, then it
is a sin, because your heart is not for the
things of God. Your heart is for the things of yourself.
So that's what we're saying is it is a sin
in some instances, and sometimes it's not. It's about where
your heart is at and what you're trying, what your
heart is being pulled towards.
S2 (33:27):
And if I can jump in here to Martha, it
sounds like you're struggling a little bit with, um, some
gray area in Scripture, and that's okay. It there are
some things that, um, you know, we talk about nuance
all the time on the show, and we're not saying
that there aren't things you can't be certain about. As
Lauren just said, certainty itself is not a sin. The
problem is when it becomes an issue of pride. So
(33:47):
we're not saying you can't be certain that Jesus loves
you and died on the cross for you. We're absolutely
not saying that because you can and should be certain
about those things. But there there are certain things that
fall into. Um, I mentioned earlier, sex is not a sin,
but it can be in the wrong context.
S5 (34:03):
Yeah.
S1 (34:03):
Does that help, Martha?
S10 (34:06):
Yeah. I just I'm one who looks at the Bible
and I say, it says what it says. It's written
in black and white. Okay. I want to I don't
understand a lot of the Bible. I'll give you some scriptures. I,
you know, and say this doesn't match this. Okay. There's,
you know, controversy. I don't understand some of it. I
(34:28):
read it and I go, what?
S7 (34:30):
That's okay.
S10 (34:32):
So so I, like I said, the only time I
can really listen to you guys is when I drive
to work, because I don't have a radio at home. Okay?
So I enjoy listening to you guys because Thank you.
You guys, because you guys will say, you know something
about the Bible or, you know, a scripture verse or
something like that. So, you know, I even I even go,
(34:54):
go to my one patient and I go, hey, you
know what I heard on CRF today?
S11 (34:58):
Oh, you do that.
S1 (34:59):
Thank you. Martha.
S10 (35:00):
Yeah, yeah I do, I do. She's she's a real
good Christian. I mean, let me tell you, when you
look up Christian, the word Christian, you'll see an eight
by ten picture of her. Really? I mean, she really, really. Well,
she I, I go to work, and sometimes it's like
I almost have a Bible study. You know, I'm a caregiver.
S11 (35:20):
Okay, that's tough work. You do.
S10 (35:22):
Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes. So sometimes, you know, we'll
sit down. Hey, this, in fact, we were talking about, um, uh,
the Trinity and the Holy Spirit and and, you know,
a couple days later, she says here and she hands
me a, a study, a study book that she had here. Here,
you know, to help me out, to learn this stuff. Okay.
S1 (35:44):
Well, you know, and and you brought up the Trinity,
which I think is super important in this discussion because,
as you know, the word Trinity is actually not in
the Bible.
S10 (35:53):
Correct. And it's and it says, um, we debated about
whether there were three, three different people or one person
with three titles.
S1 (36:05):
Well, and that's, you know, a path we're not going
to go down at the moment. But what I would
what I would tell you is that, like we're simply
doing something very similar here. We're talking about principles in Scripture,
and we came up with a word to illustrate those principles. Actually,
we didn't come up with it. It was somebody else.
We're just talking about it. But Martha, I so appreciate
your passion. Your call. Love that you listen to the show. Uh,
(36:28):
if you don't mind, could we send you a little
something since you love listening to us?
S10 (36:32):
Sure.
S1 (36:33):
Awesome. Okay, so you stay on hold, Martha. We'll get
your information, and we'll send you some mornings with Brian
gear so that you have maybe a a mug to
sip out of as you're helping out people.
We talked about the movie conclave because all four of
us have become major fans, and we're offended that Jamie
hasn't seen it.
S2 (00:35):
Yeah, you really need to. It's one thing for three
of the four of us to be obsessed about something,
but once you get Ron, you know it's good when
Ron is hopped on.
S3 (00:43):
And I am. I'm obsessed.
S1 (00:45):
I'm not.
S3 (00:46):
Obsessed. It is.
S2 (00:47):
So good. Jamie, you have to watch it.
S3 (00:49):
All right?
S1 (00:50):
Yeah. I don't know that you've been obsessed like you've
said that before.
S2 (00:53):
It is literally the best movie that came out last year,
if not probably one of the best movies that's come
out in ten years. It's amazing all the time.
S3 (00:59):
Yeah, it's it's been a while since I've been obsessed
with something, some entertainment form. But this this movie qualifies, and.
S1 (01:08):
I'm not certain all four of us have ever been
on board with something like this.
S2 (01:10):
Right? Yeah. No, we all have very different interests. So
for all of us to really love something, you know,
it's big.
S1 (01:15):
And so we got a ton of comments because we
zeroed in on one speech from the dean of the
College of Cardinals in the film, Dean Lawrence, played by
Ralph Fiennes. Okay. And he talked about a sin that
scared him more than any other in this film. It
depicts the selection of a new pope, and so it's
very apropos, as they say in France, I believe. And
(01:36):
it means something like appropriate, timely, something like that. At
least that's what the French say, and that's.
S2 (01:41):
What they say.
S1 (01:42):
So he talked about a sin that scared him, and
I'd never heard of this sin. So we're going to
listen back to the speech now to give you some context.
And then we'll get into a discussion about it. Take
it away, Ron.
S4 (01:55):
Let me speak from the heart for a moment. Saint
Paul said, be subject to one another out of reverence
for Christ. To work together and to to grow together.
We must be tolerant. No one person or faction seeking
to dominate another. And speaking to the Ephesians, who were,
(02:19):
of course, a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. Paul reminds
us that God's gift to the church is its variety.
It is this variety, this diversity of people and views,
which gives our church its strength. And over the course
of many years, in the service of our mother, the church,
(02:40):
let me tell you, there is one sin which I
have come to fear above all others. Certainty. Certainty is
the great enemy of unity. Certainty is the deadly enemy
of tolerance. Even Christ was not certain at the end.
(03:06):
Diamir Diamir. May I Abandonato he cried out in his
agony at the ninth hour on the cross. Our faith
is a living thing precisely because it walks hand in
hand with doubt. If there was only certainty, and no
doubt there would be no mystery and therefore no need
(03:31):
for faith. Let us pray that God will grant us
a Pope who doubts, and let him grant us a
Pope whose sins and asks for forgiveness, and who carries on.
S1 (03:48):
For now. A couple of quick caveats. We talked about
it earlier this week, so I'll make these very brief.
But of course we are part of Moody Bible Institute.
We're an evangelical organization. We certainly have theological differences with
the Roman Catholic Church. We certainly don't think that that
speech from a movie should be taken word for word
(04:09):
as any assertion of our beliefs or not, but it's
provoking of conversation. And we thought that idea of certainty
as a sin was pretty powerful. And so we wanted
to talk about it. So I hope that's a fair.
Is that enough of a caveat? Do you feel like
we covered all the caveats?
S2 (04:30):
Yeah, there's things I don't agree with what he said, but.
And that should be okay. Yeah. That's okay. We can
still talk about other parts of his speech that are
thought provoking.
S1 (04:40):
We listen to a speech a few moments ago where
one of the characters in the film said the sin
he fears most at that time in their work was
the sin of certainty, and we found that to be intriguing. Yeah,
that certainty would be considered a sin. And to jump
into this, we had a call we couldn't get to that.
Daria can summarize for us.
S2 (05:00):
Yeah. So this person was kind of upset at our
assertion that certainty could be a sin in certain contexts
and not a sin in others. Um, and just they
said it either is a sin or it isn't.
S1 (05:16):
Yeah. And there, um, there certainly are sins that are
like that lying.
S2 (05:23):
Well.
S1 (05:24):
Well, actually.
S2 (05:26):
Okay. So then what is one that is.
S1 (05:28):
Um, okay. Well. Adultery.
S2 (05:33):
Okay. Yep.
S1 (05:35):
Adultery. Definitely. There's no. No. So now we have to
go back and explain line quickly. What I would say
is that not everyone's entitled to the entire truth.
S2 (05:42):
There's also the the midwives in Egypt that were commended
for not disclosing that boys had been born or people.
S5 (05:50):
Um, during World War two, housing Jewish people and not
telling if, you know, the Gestapo came to their, uh,
house and was like, are there Jews here? Yeah. No.
S1 (06:01):
Even though what's interesting is Corrie Ten boom and her
family were convinced they couldn't lie. And so they didn't.
And one time a Nazi at their door was they
were like, yep, we've got them hiding here. And they're like,
ha ha. Goodbye. They like thought they were joking around.
But if you talk to Doctor Redlich about it, he said,
you always choose the greater good, and the greater good
is the preservation of life. Yeah, it's not the lesser
(06:24):
of two evils. It's the greater of two goods. Now,
Daria's example, off the air I thought was the best.
It's a little startling, but I think it's it's the
best example of this because the person that called was
very they didn't like the idea that something could be
sinful sometimes and not other times.
S2 (06:37):
Yeah. Brace yourself. What I said was, if you got
little ears, I apologize. Sex is not a sin. But
sometimes it is. In certain contexts it is not okay
in the context in which God has designed it. Not
a sin.
S5 (06:50):
Food, not a sin. You need it to live. But
sometimes it is. Gluttony is a sin.
S1 (06:56):
Money. Not a sin. But if you love it, look
at it.
S6 (07:00):
It's sinning. Drugs in some instances.
S2 (07:04):
What kind of drugs are we talking?
S6 (07:05):
Well.
S1 (07:06):
Let's talk.
S6 (07:06):
About this.
S1 (07:08):
I'm just.
S6 (07:08):
Kidding.
S2 (07:09):
A very big.
S6 (07:09):
Difference between.
S2 (07:11):
Tylenol.
S6 (07:12):
And she said, let me jump in drugs. I mean,
if you're prescribed some painkillers.
S5 (07:18):
Sure. Right.
S6 (07:19):
Because you've had an injury or a surgery, but then
to abuse them or to not have a prescription would
be abuse of that, right?
S1 (07:27):
So yeah.
S6 (07:29):
I'm like, don't make me question it.
S1 (07:30):
No, no no, you did great. And this ties to
one of one of the text messages we got said this.
And now I don't know the context of it, but
it springboards into something else. It says, I'm certain that
Jesus Christ died for my sins. I'm certain that he
rose from the dead. I'm certain that he wouldn't lie
to us. Me too. Here's what makes me sad, though.
(07:51):
When I see Christians living life outside of nuance, it
gets rigid and scary and sad. Like, I feel sad
for the person who got so upset about that.
S2 (08:02):
Yeah. I mean, we're not saying that there aren't certain
truths that are completely inarguable within the Bible. We are
not saying that. But if we really examine it, those
are actually not many. And there's plenty of others, as
we just gave you several examples where there's, um, some
nuance and some gray area and room for debate.
S6 (08:21):
It's a.
S5 (08:21):
Heart issue.
S1 (08:23):
It is a heart issue. And that's where even like
if you acknowledge the existence of poetry and nuance. Okay.
And then you listen to that speech from conclave again.
S3 (08:32):
Mhm.
S1 (08:33):
I don't think at all that the character was saying
that certainty is always a sin. I don't think that's
what he meant at all. If you would have asked him,
are you certain about who Christ is? He would have
said yes.
S3 (08:45):
Yeah. Correct.
S1 (08:46):
He was talking in context that he about disunity among
the cardinals, and that what was causing that disunity was
the sin of certainty.
S2 (08:56):
Yeah, there's a lot of, um, people that are vying
for the papacy in this movie. Um. Right. And they
all have. Many of them have skeletons in their closet.
And you find out what a lot of these are.
But they're all very prideful. They're all certain that they're
the best pick. And that's kind of what he was
talking about.
S5 (09:10):
You're like, don't go into this voting process certain that
you know exactly who it should be.
S1 (09:15):
And so what you can't do is take every word
he says. Exactly. Literally.
S2 (09:19):
It's not scripture. It's still a movie.
S1 (09:20):
And he was also using some. Yes, he was speaking
with nuance.
S3 (09:25):
Yes he was.
S1 (09:26):
And I think people sometimes do this with scripture as well, right?
Where they don't understand that you can take the Bible
literally true as literally true and not always take it literally.
S5 (09:38):
Well, yeah, people want things to be black and white
because it makes it easier. I'll just follow the rules,
and I don't have to use my brain.
S1 (09:44):
Because it's.
S5 (09:44):
Easier and I don't have to know what my heart
is actually wanting or desiring, or the things my heart
is pulling me towards because I just follow the rules.
So everything has to be black or white, or a
rule so that I don't actually have to know myself
and know what my heart's is being pulled towards.
S1 (10:04):
And now I think someone might have spit out their
coffee when they heard me say that you can take
the Bible literally. True. But some things are not literal.
S2 (10:12):
The entire Song of Solomon is not supposed to be literal.
The entire thing is a metaphor. I mean, if you
were to take what that book says as the ideal woman,
you'd get a very strange looking person.
S3 (10:22):
Yes. You would. Yeah.
S1 (10:24):
Yeah.
S3 (10:26):
They.
S1 (10:27):
I forgot about your teeth are like goats or whatever.
S2 (10:31):
Your neck is like a wall or something like that.
S1 (10:33):
Yeah, a tower, a tall tower, maybe. Um, and I'm
even thinking of when Jesus said as a hen gathers
her chicks. Um, so I wish I could gather up
the people that he's not calling himself a chicken. He's
not calling himself a woman.
S5 (10:45):
Separating the sheep from the goats. We're not actual sheep.
S1 (10:49):
Yeah. Which is, again, why life is so much better. Christian,
when you breathe and allow for nuance. Like in that
speech as well. There were things Lauren said she disagreed with, yes,
but she didn't go apoplectic and fall off her chair.
She said, I don't agree with that. What's next? We're okay. Yeah. 44054622554405462255.
(11:15):
There were other, uh, comments from our discussion of conclave
and the sin of certainty. Here's another one just playing
devil's advocate here, because I'm sure this is not what
you mean, but I'm sure some people are hearing unity
at the expense of principle because, okay, so when the
guy talks about the sin of certainty, he says that
certainty can get in the way of unity, as in,
(11:38):
if I'm so certain that you must observe the Sabbath
on Saturday that if Ron goes on Sunday, I just
can't be his friend. That is a problem. Okay. That
becomes sinful. It's like a no no. You can disagree
on minor points of theology and still have unity. Right.
And so what we are not saying is that unity
(12:00):
at the expense of principle.
S3 (12:02):
Right.
S1 (12:03):
And I don't know how people can hear that unless
you are so rigid. You don't understand nuance. Right. I mean,
no one is saying give up biblical truth when you
say certainty can be sinful, no one saying give up
on being certain on anything. Excuse me.
S6 (12:19):
No.
S1 (12:19):
Breathe for a minute. No. It's outrageous. I don't know
how people hear that. Like what causes someone to be
so rigid that what they think we're saying is. Don't
be certain about who Jesus is. Excuse me?
S3 (12:35):
Yeah, it's not that at all.
S1 (12:38):
But how do you get in a world where that
something you would presume.
S3 (12:43):
And you can be, you can be unified in, in
other ways, like in Medina, we can all come together
and and say we love the Christmas tree in the
gazebo on the square at, at holiday seasons. And yet
we can disagree about who we think would be the
best mayoral candidate, or how effective the police department is,
(13:07):
or whether garbage pickup should be on this day or
that day. There's there's things that that would pull you
apart from unity, that you set aside for the sake
of unity. There are things you can't set aside, you know,
in Christianity. That's what makes us the unique group we are.
S1 (13:27):
That's right. And that's what Jesus prayed for, that we
would be known by our love for one another and
our unity because of that. And like another example would
be just yesterday. So my my wife and her work
capacity has been had the opportunity to work with some nonprofits.
And she looked at me yesterday and she goes, because we're,
you know, evangelical. I've both been raised that way. She goes, Brian,
(13:50):
the Roman Catholic Church is doing such great good in
our community. Yes. I have seen so many things Roman
Catholic Church is doing. I didn't look at her and go,
are you converting? Did you just convert right in front
of me?
S3 (14:03):
You're now a Papist.
S1 (14:05):
Do you now agree with all their theology?
S7 (14:07):
Sarah?
S1 (14:07):
No. I was able to hear her and go. Yeah.
Isn't that wonderful? Tell me more about that. I didn't
see every word she's saying as a threat. And I
believed that she could have two conflicting truths be coexisting.
S5 (14:21):
We've had three texts come in from Rebecca Carroll. And
then another one. I don't have their name. All talking
about certainty really doesn't seem to be too far removed
from pride or its, you know, arrogance being like it's
the opposite of humility, being willing to be wrong.
S1 (14:39):
And I just almost like the word certainty better than arrogance. Yeah,
because people can deceive themselves in thinking they're not arrogant
and they're just certain that's true. And in a big way.
Like I see this in evangelicalism all the time. There
are people who, in their particular denomination with their favorite preacher,
(15:00):
have decided they've got all of it figured out.
S5 (15:02):
Yeah.
S1 (15:02):
What do you mean, all of it, Brian? Every finer
point of theology. And if you disagree with them, they
kind of scoff at you, and they wonder if you're saved.
And it drives me nutty.
S5 (15:11):
Yeah. Earlier this week on Wednesday, we talked with we
had a question for Doctor Melnick about eschatology. Like, what
is your stance on millennial pre-millennial post? Millennial doctor has
a very firm stance on what he is, but he's
not going to yell and scream at you about it because,
as he said on Wednesday, I'll show you where other
(15:33):
people say that they get postmillennialism from.
S1 (15:36):
And they're not idiots.
S5 (15:37):
They're not crazy. I don't agree with them. I think
it's very clear, he said. But this is I can
show you where they get it from, and we are
just all doing our best to interpret scripture.
S1 (15:47):
Yeah. And if you are so certain about all theology,
why do you even need the Bible? Why do you
need the Lord? Yeah, because you've just put yourself as
a co-equal to the Trinity. It's now a quartet because
you're in it, right? I mean, that's really, at the
end of the day, what it is. That's not a
barbershop quartet, though. Well, just like a regular one. The
(16:10):
movie conclave, which again, we don't, you know, give it
our 100% endorsement on theology, but the four of us
really loved it.
S5 (16:18):
Well, like you watch the movie date night, and I don't.
That's not my theology either. Like it's a movie. Just
because you watch a movie doesn't mean you agree with everything.
S1 (16:27):
Well, it's that strange tendency in Christian culture that if
you say you like a movie, someone presumes that you
give it your full 100% endorsement of all of it.
S2 (16:35):
If there's one thing wrong with it, we must discard
the entire thing.
S1 (16:39):
So all we're left with is that, you know, nothing.
S6 (16:42):
Nothing? Nothing at all. Really.
S1 (16:44):
Um, okay. So, uh, we like conclave. Interesting movie. We
just aired a speech. Uh, and did it earlier this
week as well, where one of the characters suggests there's
a sin of certainty. And we talked about the nuance
of that. He didn't mean literally. You can't ever be certain.
He's just saying that certainty in some can cause sin
among believers. And we think he's right. (440) 546-2255. We got Paul,
(17:10):
who's been patiently waiting on the phone. Take it away, Paul.
What do you have for us, my friend?
S8 (17:15):
Hey, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, I'm involved
with two situations with lifelong friends right now. Uh, when
people get their doctrines and they're. They're certain that this
is the way it is. This is what the Bible says.
And they leave no opening for discussion. And the one is,
you know, Calvinism and Arminianism and. Well, the guy won't
(17:36):
speak to me for 40 years, 45 years I've known
him and he won't speak to me because he disagrees
with me. And I'm not, you know, real, uh, stout
on my position. I just like to discuss stuff. Right.
But some people like you, like you alluded to with
your eschatology. I mean, hey, I'm right, I'm right, and
(17:57):
that's the way it is. If you don't want to
believe the Bible, then I'm not going to talk to
you anymore. And I'm like, okay, and you're a Christian, right?
S1 (18:04):
And I'm so sorry your friendship ended over. You said
it was Calvinism versus Arminianism.
S8 (18:10):
Oh, yeah.
S1 (18:11):
I'm so sorry.
S8 (18:13):
Well, I mean, I'm still open to the relationship, but,
I mean, I took this guy through his divorce and
everything else, too, you know? And, uh, and it it
is sad because when people take the certain position, you know,
like you were talking about Doctor Riddell, he's got a position,
but he says, well, I can show you where other
(18:33):
people have this position, and that's the way I am,
you know? But, uh, I think some people take their
certainty to the point of destroying relationships. Yes, in a
lot of different areas, especially when it comes to disagreement.
They take their certainty in what they believe. And it
really honestly, I believe it does turn into sin, you know,
(18:57):
because until you make that relationship right, I have another
person that disagrees with me on something. They won't even
come and talk. There's no, you know. Come, let us
reason together. It's just. Hey, this is the way it is. And,
you know, I just don't. This this kind of stuff
is invading Christianity. And it makes me wonder, you know,
(19:18):
it makes me wonder about. And like you said, they
they take it to the point where, well, you're not
a Christian if you don't believe what I the way
I believe. Right. And I just think that's so crazy.
You know.
S1 (19:29):
I think it breaks God's heart.
S8 (19:30):
Also, I think the devil is trying to divide people.
And if he can use Scripture to divide people, he.
There's no law against him doing that right?
S1 (19:39):
There it is, Paul.
S8 (19:40):
And people need to agree to disagree, you know.
S1 (19:43):
And just find unity in Christ. Very good.
S8 (19:47):
Exactly, exactly.
S1 (19:48):
Thank you so much for the the call, Paul. I
almost said the Paul call. Whatever I call you. I
just won't call you late for dinner. Okay.
S8 (19:56):
There you go, my friend.
S1 (19:58):
God bless you, brother. All right. We got another call waiting.
Let's go to Cory. Cory, what did you want to
share in this discussion?
S9 (20:04):
Hey good morning. Good morning family. How y'all doing this morning?
S1 (20:07):
Good man. Glad glad you called.
S9 (20:08):
Good, good. Yes I saw I love you guys so
much for just bringing up this topic and being able
to just just have something that opens up discussion. Um,
you guys do that very well. Um, so, you know,
when I, when I heard it earlier in the week, um,
I marinated on what you guys were saying, and, um,
you know, certainty. And when you say it, um, initially
(20:30):
you think certainty is thin and and then just from
the basic level perspective, no, it's not right. But I
think you guys were saying, like, if it if it
marinates and it breeds and then you get into self-righteousness
and pride, that's when it becomes a sin. Because I
think we know that certainty just on a plain, just
level perspective, that it's not because, you know, certainty, um, with,
(20:53):
with Peter would allow him to keep walking on water. Right. Um,
and certainty with what God had told Adam and Eve
in the Garden of Eden wouldn't have raised out for
them to have the fall of man, right? So if
they were certain and believed that what God said. So
certainty in itself is not a sin. I think what
you guys are making a distinction of is that if
(21:14):
it breeds self-righteousness and that if it breeds pride. Am
I hearing that correctly?
S1 (21:19):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're not going to find
Paul listing certainty as a sin. Um, and I love
that you called for clarity. That's so important. And I
you know, when I heard that clip for the first
time when I watched the movie, I don't remember if
I paused it, but I feel like I paused it
and I said, wait a minute. Sin is a certainty
(21:39):
is a sin. I don't know, how do I what
does he mean? I had to really think through it.
And that's why I loved it, because it caused me
to really think deeply about what he meant and whether
it could be true and how I feel about it.
And yeah, so when someone is so certain about their
their view of how Genesis ought to be interpreted, that
they're willing to end a friendship over it, I think
(22:01):
they've reached the point of sin. Their certainty becomes sinful.
But I don't think the guy in the film meant
that you should never be certain. The opposite is true.
I mean, I'm certain about who Christ is. And so
you're you're right. In fact, I think someone else mentioned. And, Lauren,
you can remind me of this, that it sounds like
what they're saying is pride. He sounds like he's saying pride.
S5 (22:21):
Yeah. Being prideful or arrogant. The opposite of humility.
S2 (22:24):
Putting a different label on it so people really understand
how encompassing pride can be, I think.
S1 (22:30):
But the power of that speech was if he would
have said to this group of cardinals, my biggest fear
is pride is the sin of pride. They would have
been like, yeah, me too.
S5 (22:39):
Yeah, obviously.
S1 (22:40):
Yeah. Me too. All these prideful guys over here are
going to bother me. When he said it differently and creatively.
S5 (22:46):
They were like, wait.
S1 (22:47):
He made them think.
S5 (22:48):
Yeah.
S9 (22:48):
Yeah. And I agree. I agree completely, I just think
it's so for people who have discernment of nuance, I
think this is beneficial. But for those ears who don't
have that discernment of nuance and have you be able
to distinguish distinguish what he's really trying to say? I
think it could be dangerous. Does that make sense?
S1 (23:08):
Yes, I know what you mean by that. And one
of my goals is to help, um, set free people
who don't live in nuance because the Christian life, I think,
can be lived to its fullest. When you see, um,
when you don't just see black and white, you see
color and gray.
S9 (23:25):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
S1 (23:27):
But but yeah, I see what you mean. And I
guess there's some intentionality on my part, at least, to
poke the person who doesn't see nuance. I want to
I want to wake them up.
S9 (23:37):
Mhm.
S1 (23:38):
But yeah it's a little risky. So okay. Corey really
appreciate it brother. Thanks for the call.
S9 (23:44):
All right. Thank you guys so much. Have a great day.
S1 (23:46):
You too. And you see how. Oh yeah. Hold on.
Actually don't hang up yet Corey. I've learned hand signals.
I thought Dario was telling me she'd like a cup
of tea.
S6 (23:56):
That is what I thought, too.
S1 (23:58):
Really? Yes. I don't, I struggle so. Corey, you stay
on hold. We have maybe a mug to send him. Daria.
S6 (24:06):
Correct. That, that. That's what that was. That was mug.
S5 (24:08):
She's. Yeah. She's gonna get his info so she can
send him a mug.
S1 (24:11):
And I know why she's doing that. Because I like
what he did. He goes, I think I heard you
say this. Is that what you like? He's looking for clarity.
I don't need you to cheer for us. If you
want clarity, do it. Let's go. (440) 546-2255. Uh, how are
you processing all of this? My dear friend Jamie Buxton.
S6 (24:31):
Quietly over here.
S1 (24:32):
No, that's okay, I just I wonder what's going on
in your in your beautiful brain.
S6 (24:36):
Oh, well. Thank you. Um, no, I, I think I
am in, um, alignment that understanding that when I think
too much of myself or my, um, take on a subject,
that it is usually that I am falling into, not
a place of humility like that. It is of arrogance.
(24:59):
You know, I was trying to break it down because,
you know, I'm not a theologian. I, um, I like
things in simple terms. And so I was just thinking about, like,
if we just broke this down to how I treat
my husband when I am so certain that this is
what I said and how I meant it. And he
interpreted that different, how that like, causes a huge rift
(25:21):
in our relationship, right? I mean, hopefully it goes away quickly. Um, but,
you know, if I stay so certain with this is
what is right? And because I said so and this
is my take, it does damage. And how can we
not think that on a much bigger level than when
we interpret Scripture or how we are going to apply
(25:42):
Scripture and we are we have to be right, and
it's the only way how that is going to be
damaging to others.
S1 (25:49):
Yeah. It reminds me of when I, um, I first
started working at Moody. I was kind of scared of
the professors on campus?
S6 (25:56):
Yeah.
S1 (25:57):
Intimidated. I thought they would be, like theological, dogmatic meanies.
And then I got to know a bunch of them.
S6 (26:03):
Yeah.
S1 (26:05):
And we disagreed on some theology, and they were nothing
but curious and kind. I was just, like, taken aback. Wait,
you're not going to yell at me?
S6 (26:14):
Yeah.
S1 (26:15):
You know why? Because they love Jesus, and they don't
want to fall into the sin of pride in being
so certain that I'm wrong that they divide our relationship.
We're chatting about a more abstract but powerful concept from
a film we all liked called conclave, where one of
the characters expressed his concern about the sin of certainty.
And as we've discussed, it's it's not something explicitly listed
(26:38):
in Scripture, but what he was pointing to is that
division is caused on things that people are certain about
that don't ultimately matter. (440) 546-2255. Looks like we've got another call.
We've got Martha on the line. Good morning. Martha. Thanks
for calling. Today. What do you have for us?
S10 (26:57):
Well, I agree with these other people, you know, don't
get on your radio station and say certainty is a sin.
You're picking it apart. Okay. Because of pride. I listen
to you guys in the morning, so I have some
Jesus to start my day with. I don't want to
hear something that somebody's opinion because here again, look, it
(27:21):
says in the Bible that, you know, you shouldn't gamble.
So does that mean that I'm going to, that it's
a sin if I go and play bingo and can get,
you know, can win a dollar 2.98 and, and with
with a bunch of people just to have fun. Is
that a sin? We're not going to pick it apart.
I figure you guys are supposed to give me something
(27:43):
that I. That's in the Bible. I want to ask it.
Where does it say in the Bible? What book and
what verse does it say? Not somebody's opinion. I can
give you an opinion and say wearing red shoes is
a is a sin. Are you guys going to now
say that red shoes or people that have red hair.
That's a sin. I don't want your opinion. I want
(28:06):
I want to be able to walk away. Because when
I turn off the video, walk away with the I
got Jesus in my mind, I got I can even
share it with the person I'm going to go to
work with. That's my opinion. Okay.
S1 (28:20):
Well, I'm so glad you called Martha, and it sounds
like we upset you and that's not something I want
to do. So I certainly am so sorry that we've
upset you.
S10 (28:30):
Well, but how does how do the guys figure this out, personally?
From a movie on TV? Ain't nothing on TV. That's true.
It's some some dude's opinion.
S1 (28:45):
Well, you know, I guess there's a couple of ways
to look at that. Like, for example, you and I
may disagree on this, but like when I go to
church and I listen to a sermon, what I'm hearing
is a pastor's interpretation of God's God's Word. And I've
met plenty of pastors who disagree about how to interpret
God's Word. So at the end of the day, what
they're sharing is their opinion of what a passage means.
(29:07):
But maybe you disagree with that.
S10 (29:10):
No, but I can ask my pastor, hey, where is
where is is you know, you're saying that Christ died
for you. Where does it say that? Oh, John 316
I can open my Bible and go, oh, here. Okay,
I got it. But where can she say that? I
think it was Lauren. Um, where can she say that?
(29:30):
It says that in the Bible. Otherwise, it's just. It's
just an opinion. Well, you can stand on the street
corner and ask.
S1 (29:38):
Well, but, Martha, let me just jump in and ask
you this. Now, I don't think that everything in life
has a verse for it, but perhaps you do.
S10 (29:47):
Well, what am I supposed to Believe I live by
the Bible.
S1 (29:52):
Oh, I totally agree with that.
S10 (29:54):
Right. But but I tried to. Okay, I the thing is,
is what I'm saying is, is if is. If she's
just giving her opinion and telling everybody it's a sin,
then I can't be sure for anything. Nothing. Nothing at all.
(30:15):
I can't even be sure that the Christ died for
me because it's a sin. But now you're going to
pick it apart and believe you know. Well, well, I can't,
I can't, I can be sure of this, but I
can't be sure of that. But I can't be sure
of this. Wait a minute. I'll be sure of this
and this and this. Well, no.
S1 (30:31):
Martha, can I jump in quick? I'm hoping we can
chat about this because I think there could be some misunderstanding.
Would you be open to chatting about it a little bit?
S10 (30:40):
Yeah.
S1 (30:42):
Now, my my friend Lauren's here, and I think you're
talking about Lauren, so I would say the two of
you had a chat about it. Are you okay with that, Lauren? Sure.
So she's saying, as I understand it, Martha, you can
correct me here that, um, you're saying that certainty is
not in the Bible as a sin. And so, um,
but I don't know, Martha, would you kind of paint
(31:03):
for her what your concern is about what something she
said was, I don't want to misspeak.
S10 (31:10):
Okay, but you're saying certainty was a sin. But then
you turned around and said, but it's not a it's
not a sin, because I believe that Christ died for me. And,
you know, he was born, raised and died. Okay. Now
that part is certainty is a sin. So you're going
to pick all sins apart. Are you going to pick everything? Well, well,
(31:34):
you know, I, uh what's it say in the Bible?
You know, um, gluttony. Well, well, let's see, I can
I can go ahead and and, you know, eat this
and this and this and be gone. But but but
on Tuesday, you know, at 2:00. I know it's not
a sin. No, it's either all or nothing. And and. Okay,
(31:54):
I'm going to get on the radio and and.
S1 (31:57):
Well, hold on one second, Martha, I want I want
Lauren to be able to respond to that.
S5 (32:01):
Sure. I think in a lot of areas in our lives,
things can be sins if our heart is not in
the right place. So gluttony itself is not necessarily listed
verbatim as a sin, but greed is listed as sin.
Overindulgence is listed as a sin. And when you are
(32:23):
being gluttonous, that is being greedy, that is overindulgence. Drinking
too much wine is listed in the Bible or, um,
taking too much for yourself. Okay. So those all encompass
what gluttony would be. Though gluttony itself is not listed,
you can say, because gluttony is the background of gluttony.
(32:45):
The heart behind gluttony is these things. It's a sin.
And so we're saying is the same with certainty. Also
you're correct. Certainty itself. The word is not listed as
a sin in Scripture. But pride is. And not having
any humility is. And sometimes, if your heart is not
in the right place and you're certain about something and
(33:07):
your heart is just to be correct, or your heart
is to be prideful or to be arrogant, then it
is a sin, because your heart is not for the
things of God. Your heart is for the things of yourself.
So that's what we're saying is it is a sin
in some instances, and sometimes it's not. It's about where
your heart is at and what you're trying, what your
heart is being pulled towards.
S2 (33:27):
And if I can jump in here to Martha, it
sounds like you're struggling a little bit with, um, some
gray area in Scripture, and that's okay. It there are
some things that, um, you know, we talk about nuance
all the time on the show, and we're not saying
that there aren't things you can't be certain about. As
Lauren just said, certainty itself is not a sin. The
problem is when it becomes an issue of pride. So
(33:47):
we're not saying you can't be certain that Jesus loves
you and died on the cross for you. We're absolutely
not saying that because you can and should be certain
about those things. But there there are certain things that
fall into. Um, I mentioned earlier, sex is not a sin,
but it can be in the wrong context.
S5 (34:03):
Yeah.
S1 (34:03):
Does that help, Martha?
S10 (34:06):
Yeah. I just I'm one who looks at the Bible
and I say, it says what it says. It's written
in black and white. Okay. I want to I don't
understand a lot of the Bible. I'll give you some scriptures. I,
you know, and say this doesn't match this. Okay. There's,
you know, controversy. I don't understand some of it. I
(34:28):
read it and I go, what?
S7 (34:30):
That's okay.
S10 (34:32):
So so I, like I said, the only time I
can really listen to you guys is when I drive
to work, because I don't have a radio at home. Okay?
So I enjoy listening to you guys because Thank you.
You guys, because you guys will say, you know something
about the Bible or, you know, a scripture verse or
something like that. So, you know, I even I even go,
(34:54):
go to my one patient and I go, hey, you
know what I heard on CRF today?
S11 (34:58):
Oh, you do that.
S1 (34:59):
Thank you. Martha.
S10 (35:00):
Yeah, yeah I do, I do. She's she's a real
good Christian. I mean, let me tell you, when you
look up Christian, the word Christian, you'll see an eight
by ten picture of her. Really? I mean, she really, really. Well,
she I, I go to work, and sometimes it's like
I almost have a Bible study. You know, I'm a caregiver.
S11 (35:20):
Okay, that's tough work. You do.
S10 (35:22):
Sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes. So sometimes, you know, we'll
sit down. Hey, this, in fact, we were talking about, um, uh,
the Trinity and the Holy Spirit and and, you know,
a couple days later, she says here and she hands
me a, a study, a study book that she had here. Here,
you know, to help me out, to learn this stuff. Okay.
S1 (35:44):
Well, you know, and and you brought up the Trinity,
which I think is super important in this discussion because,
as you know, the word Trinity is actually not in
the Bible.
S10 (35:53):
Correct. And it's and it says, um, we debated about
whether there were three, three different people or one person
with three titles.
S1 (36:05):
Well, and that's, you know, a path we're not going
to go down at the moment. But what I would
what I would tell you is that, like we're simply
doing something very similar here. We're talking about principles in Scripture,
and we came up with a word to illustrate those principles. Actually,
we didn't come up with it. It was somebody else.
We're just talking about it. But Martha, I so appreciate
your passion. Your call. Love that you listen to the show. Uh,
(36:28):
if you don't mind, could we send you a little
something since you love listening to us?
S10 (36:32):
Sure.
S1 (36:33):
Awesome. Okay, so you stay on hold, Martha. We'll get
your information, and we'll send you some mornings with Brian
gear so that you have maybe a a mug to
sip out of as you're helping out people.
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