May 6, 2025 • 12 mins
Paul Asay with PluggedIn.com shares about a new superhero movie—Thunderbolts. It features a disgraced Captain America, a couple of assassins and a few other folks with checkered pasts and asks them to ... save the world. That sparks a question: What is a hero? In this time of uncertainty, stress and divisiveness, we seem to need one more than ever. What makes for a great hero on screen? What makes a hero in real life?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
Policy is our good friend. He works with Plugged In,
talking about movies and talking about media and talking about
themes of movies as well. And, and Paul just wanted
to just dive right in on this one because it's
not your typical hero movie. Tell us a little bit
about it.
S2 (00:17):
Yeah. So I know that Adam talked with you a
little bit about Thunderbolts. That is the big movie that's
out in theaters right now. It's a marvel Cinematic Universe movie. Uh,
I am a big Marvel fan or was for a
good long while they've had sort of a rough patch.
Thunderbolts is sort of a return to form, and it
really does deal with some interesting quote unquote heroes, most
(00:39):
of them we've known as villains throughout the MCU. Uh,
you know, you have some some well-trained assassins. You have
some failed heroes. There's a guy named John Walker who
was Captain America for like, a minute before he fell
from grace. And so you find that all these characters,
they need to figure out a way to work together
(01:02):
even though they don't like each other. They don't think
that they're really up for the challenge that faces them.
But in the course of the movie, they really do
become heroes. And it's kind of a sweet movie because
of that.
S1 (01:14):
Okay, so so they're not all that and a bag
of chips that we think of as far as when
it comes to like the heroes that we've built up
or that have been built up in the MCU or
with DC, all those different things they would look at.
And hero can mean so many different things. But let
me take this in a different direction right now. It
seems to me, Paul, that that there is this, um,
(01:36):
this change where Hollywood likes to take a look at
the villain through the eyes of a hero and take
the hero and look at him through the eyes of
a villain. It's kind of an interesting take, but that's
not really what happens during this movie. It kind of
examines kind of that self esteem that we have in
the thing that God has called us to do. If
we can take it from a spiritual point of view.
S2 (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really true. You know, I
think that sometimes the whole anti-hero thing is it sort
of wears on you, right? I don't, I like to
see I like to see real heroes do real heroic things. Uh,
but the thing that I liked about the Thunderbolts is,
is you have it sort of leans into. Okay. Yeah.
(02:19):
These are not your typical heroes. They're not too far
away from us. Now, granted, they've done some things that
really should send them to prison for a very, very
long time. A lot of them. But when you look
at sort of how they grapple with with who they
are and what they've become, you know, it feels a
lot like us as we deal with our own sin,
(02:40):
as we deal with our own mistakes, because we all
make mistakes. You know, the main character here is a
woman named Yelena Belova, and she she talks to her
sort of surrogate father about how she's made so many
mistakes in her own life. And when she gets home
from work, which is killing people. Granted, when she gets
home from work, she just thinks about all the terrible
(03:03):
things that she's done, and she realizes that she is
in no way a hero. And you know, the thing
that I loved about this interaction is that that Alexi,
her father, turns to her and says, when I look
at you, Elena, I don't see your mistakes. And for me,
that felt a little bit spiritual. You know, I think
(03:26):
that because, you know, when God looks at us, he does.
He knows our mistakes, of course, but at the same time,
he's able to look past them. He sees the person
who he originally created us to be, the beautiful creation
that that he made us. Um, he knows that we've
made mistakes, but there's always a chance to correct those mistakes,
(03:47):
redeem those mistakes, make better choices as we go through life.
And that's sort of what this movie is about.
S1 (03:53):
Great to have you with us here on mornings with
Tom and Tommy. Policy with Plugged In is with us,
and we're talking about heroes.
S3 (04:00):
And so, Paul, you were just sharing about this movie
that's out and how it's kind of unique and it
brings up a lot of questions. It's called Thunderbolts, but
in life they're in story really. We, we, we love
talking about heroes. And in in writing about them, there's
usually an arc. There's a pathway that that hero goes through.
(04:23):
And I wonder if that's the same thing that happens
to us in life as we grow.
S2 (04:29):
Well, I think in a lot of ways it really is.
You know, I think that that as we go through life,
we do sort of fit along some points of hero,
the hero's journey. Right? And maybe if we thought about
our own lives a little more like that, we would
have a better idea of of what that looks like.
(04:50):
And as we go through, you know, because I do
think that that in some ways we all are heroes
of our own journeys. Right? We all are the protagonists.
And I think that that a lot of times when
you look at who we are and what we do.
We go through a lot of those same touch points.
You know, in every hero's journey, for instance, you find
(05:10):
that there's a mentor along the way who helps you. Um,
and that's something that I think all of us really
do have. We have these mentors in our lives that
that come alongside us and teach us things. They're often
not just one sage person like a Gandalf character. Uh,
but you have these people who come into your lives
who give you advice when you need it the most,
(05:31):
and they teach you about what to do on the way. Um,
another thing that that a lot of heroes go through
in terms of the, the general arc of the hero's
journey is they journey into the underworld. And you see
this in sort of like if you remember, uh, Empire
Strikes Back, you know, when when Luke Skywalker dives in
(05:53):
and he has to fight himself, you know, fight essentially
Darth Vader within within this cave that was sort of
his journey to the underworld and.
S4 (06:01):
Only what you take with you, Obi-Wan.
S1 (06:08):
I knew you were going to go to a Star
Wars uprising.
S3 (06:11):
And yet predictable.
S5 (06:12):
And there's your sage guide, right? Right there. So we.
S2 (06:17):
And we too. We have moments of strife. We have
moments of peril that we need to face. We need
to face our own demons. We need to face these
difficult challenges along the way before we can realize our goal. Um,
another part of the hero's journey is just loss. We lose. Sometimes.
We lose these battles that we fight. We lose. Sometimes
(06:41):
the people who are closest to us, you know, we lose.
Loss is a part of the hero's journey. And really
a big part of of becoming a hero is overcoming
those losses. Whether it's a whether it's a loss, whether
you you failed at something, you strive to do it,
(07:01):
you know, to to to actually win the challenge again.
And when we lose people who are close to us,
that can be an incredibly difficult thing. But we do.
We carry those people with us always, and we go
on to to new challenges, and eventually we become hopefully
the hero that God wants us to be.
S1 (07:21):
Okay, so Paul, let me ask you this about the
hero's journey. There are some that are listening to you
right now that just seem like they're mired in that
difficult season, that swamp, that abyss that they have to
go through, you know, truly that struggle. And they keep
staying in the struggle but don't quite find their way
out at the other end of it. And then, Christ,
(07:42):
we have an opportunity to to truly find our way out.
But sometimes we're just just swimming around in the muck
and the mire, not reaching out for the rope that
Jesus has for us. How do how do we get
through that moment?
S2 (07:54):
You know, and that's a great, great point. And that's
that's something that I think that as Christians, we need
to realize, you know, the thing about the hero's journey
as we frame it typically in our stories, is that
we have the power. As Christians, we understand that we don't.
(08:17):
We need to turn to another hero. And I think
that's a really important thing to remember. Yeah, we are
the protagonists of our own story in a way, but
at the same time reaching out to to God, reaching
out to Christ. That's what makes us the heroes. That's
what actually allows us to be the people that God
(08:39):
wants us to be. And yeah, you're right, Tom, it
is really hard. You know, I've been through seasons in
my own life where it just looks the task that
are in front of me can feel insurmountable. It just
feels like everything's going wrong. Um, it is a struggle that.
That I have. More than I'd care to admit, quite honestly.
(09:02):
But you do have to just sort of take a
breath and you have to say, God is in control
and God has my back. And I think that that's
that's a that's a comforting thing to know, that none
of what you're going through is a surprise to God.
That that what you have in God is more precious
(09:26):
than anything. And with God, you will be able to
to persevere, to, to push through, to, to really become
the hero that hopefully the people around you, your friends
and family need you to be.
S3 (09:39):
You know, that is amazing and I love that you
brought that in. That it's not in, in. When we
are believers, it's not in our gifting. It's in what
God is doing in and through us. And I, I've
been reading through, um, the the ten is it the
ten plagues of, of Egypt when they were the Israelites
(09:59):
were coming out? Well, just thinking about Moses. He was
such a humble man, In, and he did not feel
that he had any gifts, that he could do the
thing that God had called him to do. And yet
he was chosen. And he is. He's in history, really
in biblical history, as one of the greatest men to
have ever lived. And we revisit his story over and over.
(10:21):
But he was a hero as he leaned into God.
S2 (10:25):
And that's something that I think we can we can
always explore, because oftentimes what we see in the movies,
the heroes that we see in the movies, are not
the heroes that we see in real life. And there's
a really interesting contrast to that.
S1 (10:38):
Yeah, usually it deals with tights. You know, the heroes
of today, we don't really see them being all muscular
and stuff like that. We see them just looking like
regular people. And I think sometimes Paul, as we're talking
about that, is we're looking for the muscular type or
we're striving to be that so we can look like
the hero when we realize that when we are weak,
(10:59):
he is strong. And that's what we need to do.
We need to look to our Lord and our Savior
and to use people like us, like Toby, like Michael,
like myself. Just regular old people as we point people
to the Lord. We have hero moments, but we're not
pointing to our own strength, our own abilities. We are
pointing to that which God has called us to do
(11:20):
in the moment. He wants us to be faithful with that.
Does that work within the whole story arc of the hero?
S2 (11:27):
You know, it's an untraditional story arc, but I think
it really does. And, you know, I have a I
have a story that I could share with that. I
know we might be running up against a break, but but, uh,
but yeah, I think that, that so often when, when
we look at the heroes, you're absolutely right. We turn
to the Captain America's of the world. You know, who
never make mistakes, who are super strong. They can throw
(11:49):
shields across the, the, the valley and strike the bad
guys in the head, you know? But so often it
is it is the humility that makes us the real heroes.
Policy is our good friend. He works with Plugged In,
talking about movies and talking about media and talking about
themes of movies as well. And, and Paul just wanted
to just dive right in on this one because it's
not your typical hero movie. Tell us a little bit
about it.
S2 (00:17):
Yeah. So I know that Adam talked with you a
little bit about Thunderbolts. That is the big movie that's
out in theaters right now. It's a marvel Cinematic Universe movie. Uh,
I am a big Marvel fan or was for a
good long while they've had sort of a rough patch.
Thunderbolts is sort of a return to form, and it
really does deal with some interesting quote unquote heroes, most
(00:39):
of them we've known as villains throughout the MCU. Uh,
you know, you have some some well-trained assassins. You have
some failed heroes. There's a guy named John Walker who
was Captain America for like, a minute before he fell
from grace. And so you find that all these characters,
they need to figure out a way to work together
(01:02):
even though they don't like each other. They don't think
that they're really up for the challenge that faces them.
But in the course of the movie, they really do
become heroes. And it's kind of a sweet movie because
of that.
S1 (01:14):
Okay, so so they're not all that and a bag
of chips that we think of as far as when
it comes to like the heroes that we've built up
or that have been built up in the MCU or
with DC, all those different things they would look at.
And hero can mean so many different things. But let
me take this in a different direction right now. It
seems to me, Paul, that that there is this, um,
(01:36):
this change where Hollywood likes to take a look at
the villain through the eyes of a hero and take
the hero and look at him through the eyes of
a villain. It's kind of an interesting take, but that's
not really what happens during this movie. It kind of
examines kind of that self esteem that we have in
the thing that God has called us to do. If
we can take it from a spiritual point of view.
S2 (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's really true. You know, I
think that sometimes the whole anti-hero thing is it sort
of wears on you, right? I don't, I like to
see I like to see real heroes do real heroic things. Uh,
but the thing that I liked about the Thunderbolts is,
is you have it sort of leans into. Okay. Yeah.
(02:19):
These are not your typical heroes. They're not too far
away from us. Now, granted, they've done some things that
really should send them to prison for a very, very
long time. A lot of them. But when you look
at sort of how they grapple with with who they
are and what they've become, you know, it feels a
lot like us as we deal with our own sin,
(02:40):
as we deal with our own mistakes, because we all
make mistakes. You know, the main character here is a
woman named Yelena Belova, and she she talks to her
sort of surrogate father about how she's made so many
mistakes in her own life. And when she gets home
from work, which is killing people. Granted, when she gets
home from work, she just thinks about all the terrible
(03:03):
things that she's done, and she realizes that she is
in no way a hero. And you know, the thing
that I loved about this interaction is that that Alexi,
her father, turns to her and says, when I look
at you, Elena, I don't see your mistakes. And for me,
that felt a little bit spiritual. You know, I think
(03:26):
that because, you know, when God looks at us, he does.
He knows our mistakes, of course, but at the same time,
he's able to look past them. He sees the person
who he originally created us to be, the beautiful creation
that that he made us. Um, he knows that we've
made mistakes, but there's always a chance to correct those mistakes,
(03:47):
redeem those mistakes, make better choices as we go through life.
And that's sort of what this movie is about.
S1 (03:53):
Great to have you with us here on mornings with
Tom and Tommy. Policy with Plugged In is with us,
and we're talking about heroes.
S3 (04:00):
And so, Paul, you were just sharing about this movie
that's out and how it's kind of unique and it
brings up a lot of questions. It's called Thunderbolts, but
in life they're in story really. We, we, we love
talking about heroes. And in in writing about them, there's
usually an arc. There's a pathway that that hero goes through.
(04:23):
And I wonder if that's the same thing that happens
to us in life as we grow.
S2 (04:29):
Well, I think in a lot of ways it really is.
You know, I think that that as we go through life,
we do sort of fit along some points of hero,
the hero's journey. Right? And maybe if we thought about
our own lives a little more like that, we would
have a better idea of of what that looks like.
(04:50):
And as we go through, you know, because I do
think that that in some ways we all are heroes
of our own journeys. Right? We all are the protagonists.
And I think that that a lot of times when
you look at who we are and what we do.
We go through a lot of those same touch points.
You know, in every hero's journey, for instance, you find
(05:10):
that there's a mentor along the way who helps you. Um,
and that's something that I think all of us really
do have. We have these mentors in our lives that
that come alongside us and teach us things. They're often
not just one sage person like a Gandalf character. Uh,
but you have these people who come into your lives
who give you advice when you need it the most,
(05:31):
and they teach you about what to do on the way. Um,
another thing that that a lot of heroes go through
in terms of the, the general arc of the hero's
journey is they journey into the underworld. And you see
this in sort of like if you remember, uh, Empire
Strikes Back, you know, when when Luke Skywalker dives in
(05:53):
and he has to fight himself, you know, fight essentially
Darth Vader within within this cave that was sort of
his journey to the underworld and.
S4 (06:01):
Only what you take with you, Obi-Wan.
S1 (06:08):
I knew you were going to go to a Star
Wars uprising.
S3 (06:11):
And yet predictable.
S5 (06:12):
And there's your sage guide, right? Right there. So we.
S2 (06:17):
And we too. We have moments of strife. We have
moments of peril that we need to face. We need
to face our own demons. We need to face these
difficult challenges along the way before we can realize our goal. Um,
another part of the hero's journey is just loss. We lose. Sometimes.
We lose these battles that we fight. We lose. Sometimes
(06:41):
the people who are closest to us, you know, we lose.
Loss is a part of the hero's journey. And really
a big part of of becoming a hero is overcoming
those losses. Whether it's a whether it's a loss, whether
you you failed at something, you strive to do it,
(07:01):
you know, to to to actually win the challenge again.
And when we lose people who are close to us,
that can be an incredibly difficult thing. But we do.
We carry those people with us always, and we go
on to to new challenges, and eventually we become hopefully
the hero that God wants us to be.
S1 (07:21):
Okay, so Paul, let me ask you this about the
hero's journey. There are some that are listening to you
right now that just seem like they're mired in that
difficult season, that swamp, that abyss that they have to
go through, you know, truly that struggle. And they keep
staying in the struggle but don't quite find their way
out at the other end of it. And then, Christ,
(07:42):
we have an opportunity to to truly find our way out.
But sometimes we're just just swimming around in the muck
and the mire, not reaching out for the rope that
Jesus has for us. How do how do we get
through that moment?
S2 (07:54):
You know, and that's a great, great point. And that's
that's something that I think that as Christians, we need
to realize, you know, the thing about the hero's journey
as we frame it typically in our stories, is that
we have the power. As Christians, we understand that we don't.
(08:17):
We need to turn to another hero. And I think
that's a really important thing to remember. Yeah, we are
the protagonists of our own story in a way, but
at the same time reaching out to to God, reaching
out to Christ. That's what makes us the heroes. That's
what actually allows us to be the people that God
(08:39):
wants us to be. And yeah, you're right, Tom, it
is really hard. You know, I've been through seasons in
my own life where it just looks the task that
are in front of me can feel insurmountable. It just
feels like everything's going wrong. Um, it is a struggle that.
That I have. More than I'd care to admit, quite honestly.
(09:02):
But you do have to just sort of take a
breath and you have to say, God is in control
and God has my back. And I think that that's
that's a that's a comforting thing to know, that none
of what you're going through is a surprise to God.
That that what you have in God is more precious
(09:26):
than anything. And with God, you will be able to
to persevere, to, to push through, to, to really become
the hero that hopefully the people around you, your friends
and family need you to be.
S3 (09:39):
You know, that is amazing and I love that you
brought that in. That it's not in, in. When we
are believers, it's not in our gifting. It's in what
God is doing in and through us. And I, I've
been reading through, um, the the ten is it the
ten plagues of, of Egypt when they were the Israelites
(09:59):
were coming out? Well, just thinking about Moses. He was
such a humble man, In, and he did not feel
that he had any gifts, that he could do the
thing that God had called him to do. And yet
he was chosen. And he is. He's in history, really
in biblical history, as one of the greatest men to
have ever lived. And we revisit his story over and over.
(10:21):
But he was a hero as he leaned into God.
S2 (10:25):
And that's something that I think we can we can
always explore, because oftentimes what we see in the movies,
the heroes that we see in the movies, are not
the heroes that we see in real life. And there's
a really interesting contrast to that.
S1 (10:38):
Yeah, usually it deals with tights. You know, the heroes
of today, we don't really see them being all muscular
and stuff like that. We see them just looking like
regular people. And I think sometimes Paul, as we're talking
about that, is we're looking for the muscular type or
we're striving to be that so we can look like
the hero when we realize that when we are weak,
(10:59):
he is strong. And that's what we need to do.
We need to look to our Lord and our Savior
and to use people like us, like Toby, like Michael,
like myself. Just regular old people as we point people
to the Lord. We have hero moments, but we're not
pointing to our own strength, our own abilities. We are
pointing to that which God has called us to do
(11:20):
in the moment. He wants us to be faithful with that.
Does that work within the whole story arc of the hero?
S2 (11:27):
You know, it's an untraditional story arc, but I think
it really does. And, you know, I have a I
have a story that I could share with that. I
know we might be running up against a break, but but, uh,
but yeah, I think that, that so often when, when
we look at the heroes, you're absolutely right. We turn
to the Captain America's of the world. You know, who
never make mistakes, who are super strong. They can throw
(11:49):
shields across the, the, the valley and strike the bad
guys in the head, you know? But so often it
is it is the humility that makes us the real heroes.
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