May 14, 2025 • 15 mins
Sally Worland works with The Generosity Trust. She introduces us to Dustin Hayes who shares his story. Dustin had a difficult upbringing with a void in his life. What filled that void led him to spent some time in jail. And it was in jail, in isolation, reading the bible and listening to Moody Radio that drew him into a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. Dustin also reaches out to those who are walking a similar path that he walked, encouraging them to not wait until 'rock-bottom' to come to faith in Christ.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:03):
Sally, it's always good to have you with us. And
you always bring a special guest with you this morning.
And we'd love to know who is here today.
S2 (00:11):
Oh, thank you so much. I am so excited about
this this morning because several weeks ago I met this
young man, Dustin Hayes, at the Generosity Trust, which is
a wonderful organization here in Chattanooga that does so much
for so many, including donor advised funds and just a
lot of things for faithful people give to the ministry.
(00:33):
And part of what I get to do is to
serve on a scholarship committee for folks that are wanting
to go to seminary, and so we interview many people
we are. It's such a hard decision because these folks
come in and they're so wonderful, and we wish we
could give something to all of them, but we have
to select those that we feel like we can really benefit.
(00:54):
So this young man walks in the room named Dustin
Hayes and after reading his bio, I was already quite
impressed and excited about meeting him. But after hearing his interview,
we knew that he was someone that we wanted to support.
So I don't want to take up any of his time.
So I'm so happy to introduce to you all this morning,
(01:16):
Dustin Hayes.
S3 (01:18):
Thank you so much, Alan. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Sally,
for introducing Dustin. And good morning to you Dustin. Yeah.
S4 (01:24):
Good morning. It's so great to be here.
S1 (01:26):
So, Dustin, um, if we could just ask a question
and we're just going to dive in because we do that,
you know, we don't have a whole lot of decorum here.
We just say, well, Toby does. I just kind of
dive in and just learning a little bit about your story.
We understand that you spent some time in jail. Let
me ask this. What was going on in your life
that actually led you to that season in your life?
S4 (01:46):
Yeah, uh, about 18 years of struggles, of course, but
it all began, uh, born to a 17 year old mother,
absent father. Um, I met him. He was in and
out of my life a lot during those years. Um,
and my mother had a pretty severe drug addiction. Um,
so at 15 years old, we actually ended up homeless. Um,
I was already lonely as a child anyways. But, uh,
(02:09):
we ended up homeless in an area of town that
had a pretty high gang population, and I was taken
in and got to sleep on the couch of a
local gang member who then introduced me, um, to the gang.
And whenever I was 15 years old, I was beat in, uh,
physically beat into that gang and part of it. And
so over the next three years, of course, a lot
of involvement. But whenever I was 18 years old, um,
(02:32):
I was a driver in a robbery that went wrong
and turned into a murder. And so I found myself
facing 51 years in prison at the age of 18
years old. So, yeah, that's that's how I got there.
S3 (02:44):
Oh my goodness. Yeah. You just told a whole lot
in just a few minutes. So I mean, just thinking
about the origin, your origin story. Um, dad's in and out.
Mom's on drugs. End up homeless, but the gang member
takes you in in that vacuum, basically. And then you
found a place of belonging. You're helping out with the
(03:05):
gang stuff and, um, end up in jail. So. So
you were only in jail. You didn't go to prison.
How did. That's a miracle.
S4 (03:15):
Yeah, yeah. Well, first I want to say, like, great
discerning eye there, like that lack of community. That gap
really drove me. We all need community. God has provided
the church to be the community that we go to.
But whenever we don't know that or whenever we don't
feel comfortable there, we find replacements. And those replacements aren't
always healthy. Um, so that is how I ended up there. Um,
(03:38):
going through the story really quickly, I would love to
hone in before I talk about how I got out
of jail. Jail is where I met the Lord, so
I'd love to dive deeper into that and then get
to how I got out, you know.
S1 (03:49):
Thank you for joining us here today. You know, uh,
sometimes you find yourself in desperate The situations, and sometimes
it's because there's a vacuum in your life, and we're
learning a little bit about what happens when that vacuum
is filled by gang activity in life, when when the
church is not where they're supposed to be. And Dustin
Hayes is here with us sharing his story with us
(04:11):
this morning.
S3 (04:12):
So, Dustin, you were just about to get to this
most important part of the story. But that's not the
end of the story. But we're going to call it
the most important because you came to know someone who
changed your life forever. Tell us that story.
S4 (04:27):
Absolutely. And I'll even back up a little bit and say,
you know, I was born and raised here in the South,
so it's not that I had never heard the name
Jesus before. It's not that I had never heard about
God before, but basically, whenever I was 15 going to church,
I had all these feelings of guilt that I didn't
know what to do with. I knew I was sinful,
I knew something was wrong, but I had no power
to deal with the guilt and shame, and also had
(04:49):
no power to deal with the sin itself. So here
I was, years later. Um, whenever I first went to jail,
I was actually put in isolation. Um, so I was
on 24 hour lockdown. No window to the outside world. Like,
literally no physical window to the outside world. Um, and
just by myself and I had a phone call with
my grandmother, and she really encouraged me to, um, start
(05:12):
praying and seeking the Lord. She wasn't particularly a strong
Christian herself, but I think we both knew that if
there was any chance I was going to get out
of the situation I was in, it was going to
take someone with the power of a god to get
me out. And so I picked up a Bible and
I read through the entire thing, uh, in two months, um,
because I was in isolation, I had nothing else to do. Um,
(05:36):
and I was reading through it and just did not
understand it, of course, because I didn't have a good
context for understanding it, which is why it's so important
that we have teachers walk us through and explain it
to us. Uh, but I'm just there. It's just me.
Holy spirit in the Bible, Doing what we do. Um,
and at first I approached Jesus just as this God
(05:57):
who could do things for me, right? Like, please let
me out of jail, please. I don't want to spend
51 years in prison. And I ended up getting a
hold of a C.S. Lewis book that changed the way
that I viewed Christianity pretty substantially. And as I was
reading it, um, I realized that God was not primarily
(06:19):
someone of whom I should be asking things from, but
God was one worthy of giving everything to. Right? And
I started to realize, oh wait, let's not just ask
God for things. Let's figure out who is this God?
And is he worthy of everything? I particularly realized, oh wait,
this is a God who can call you to even
(06:42):
hard circumstances and give you joy. And that was a
terrifying concept, because that meant that he may call me
to 51 years in prison make me joyful. And then
I'm just there. And so I was wrestling with this.
But Lewis really pressed home the fact that I should
be submitting my all to Christ. And so I got
(07:02):
down on my knees one day and just said, Lord,
kill everything I've ever been and make me who you
want me to be. I had no clue what I
was asking, right? But like that was the spark. Um.
As I continued to try to figure this whole Christianity
thing out, I actually discovered Moody Radio. Um, I was
scrolling through. I had a little hand radio that I
(07:23):
had bought off commissary, and, um, I started hearing teachers
that were reinforcing the same thing. This is a God
worthy of worship. This is a God worthy of my
entire life and my entire being. Um, and they started
to help fill in those gaps and help me to
understand what this Bible was that I was picking up.
It's weird to pick up a book that was written
(07:44):
to ancient Near Eastern Israelites and then say, talk to me.
S5 (07:48):
Yeah. Yeah. How hard could that be? Right? Exactly.
S4 (07:54):
And so faithful teachers such as Alistair Begg, Colin Smith,
just so many people that are featured on Moody Radio
became gods whenever no one else could really get to me. Um,
and so I really poured myself into that. I started
praying because Moody kept talking about the different pastors, the
different programs. Even though this is a great resource for
(08:17):
during the week to connect us to God and to
bring the word to our living rooms, to our cars,
to our workplaces. It doesn't replace church, right? It doesn't
replace that local body. And so I started to pray, Lord,
please let me out of jail so I can go
to a local body. Um, and he didn't do that.
But what he did was eight months into my sentence,
(08:38):
he allowed me to go into the only pod in
the jail that had five Bible studies from volunteers from
ministers around the area would come in and lead these
Bible studies, five Bible studies a week where I could
be discipled by brothers and sisters in the Lord who
had more life experience than me and things like that.
So that was all kind of the initial start. Um,
(09:02):
and then the really fun part was whenever I finally
understood the gospel.
S1 (09:06):
Mornings with Tom and Toby speaking with Dustin Hays, who
had a very tumultuous upbringing, tumultuous life, found himself in
jail with the possibility of going to prison for 51 years.
But yet, while he's in jail, he hears about the
Lord Jesus Christ that he had heard growing up but
got to know him. On a personal level.
S3 (09:26):
I just am. I mean, I wish I could talk
to you for hours, Dustin, about this, but you shared
some really key things. You first told us that in
this difficult moment of your life of homelessness and parents
were having their own struggles, the gang members saw you
and offered help. Now in jail, Churches have shown up
(09:48):
with these Bible studies and people were there volunteering their
time and teaching, and that's awesome. Now I want to
go back to that first seeing. Why doesn't why don't
we as church people? Why don't we see people in
that distress moment to step in and help? And how
can we better see people and help?
S4 (10:08):
Yeah, man. And we could definitely spend hours just answering
that question, right? Um, one reason is just because we
have preconceived notions, right? Like, we think we know people. Um,
we're very hesitant. Um, but we also think we know
we ourselves. Um, and so we think of ourselves almost
as saviors, right? And so if you'll listen to my voice,
(10:30):
I'll see you and you can follow me. But if
you don't listen to my voice like I've got better
things to do with my time. Ooh. Um. And we
don't we don't know that we ourselves are desperately in
need of redemption. We are desperately need in Jesus of
Jesus teaching us through our brothers and sisters or unbelievers
who are in material poverty say, for example, um, they
(10:53):
have something to teach us and something to show us
about ourselves, about God, about everything. And so our pride,
our preconceived notions of what people are, they all get
in the way of us being able to just kind
of break down the barriers and build the bridges, uh,
in honest relationship. But I would also say that we
have a friendship deficiency in America, right? We don't think
(11:16):
about even if I said the word intimacy here. Right.
I think a lot of Americans hear that word, and
they either get afraid or they they take it to
places that are, um, not friendship, right? Beyond that to
romantic relationships.
S3 (11:29):
Or sexual or.
S4 (11:30):
Exactly. And, um, we don't we don't know how to
have intimate relationships even with the people that we're comfortable with. Right?
We're not good at practicing brother and sisterhood to each other, uh,
inviting each other into our homes and saying, look at
my mess, but be here with me. Right. We're not
good at that. So if you're not good at that,
with the people that are close to you and you're
(11:52):
comfortable with, how are you ever going to build that
type of relationship to someone who's different than you? Right.
And I was different. The gang members were the same
and therefore they were comfortable with me. We've got to
get comfortable first with the people there, the same with
us and become intimate with them, brothers and sisters, and
really dig deep into relationship and then do that so
(12:13):
much that we can actually start to be comfortable with
people that are different than us and build those relationships.
S3 (12:19):
Yeah.
S4 (12:19):
So that would be my quick answer.
S5 (12:21):
Yeah. That is your quick answer.
S3 (12:23):
You need to be president. You need to be king,
and you need to be a preacher, which maybe you
will be. But but that was profound.
S5 (12:31):
Yeah, it really was.
S1 (12:32):
It just beautifully articulated about, you know, the deficiencies that
we are seeing. I think, um, culturally, we're seeing it
within the church as well. And just that isolation away
from one another. And you put it really well. If
we can't have relationship with those that we are similar to,
how are we going to ever be able to reach
out to those who are different than us?
S4 (12:52):
Absolutely. Yeah.
S1 (12:54):
Okay. So let me ask you this. Um, there's so
many different pathways that we can take on this. One does.
And just, just quickly, um, let me take it from
the the viewpoint of those people that are in the
situation that you were in prior to, um, going to jail. Uh,
there's somebody that's walking that road right now. There's a
vacuum in their life. And, uh, what is the message
(13:17):
that you want them to know?
S4 (13:19):
Yeah. Uh, there's there's many messages. Uh, one of them
would be, um, don't don't let a crisis be the
trigger for change, right? Uh, let my crisis be your crisis. Right?
It took me going to jail and facing 51 years
before I would finally listen to God and give him
my ear. Right. Um, don't allow yourself to get to
(13:41):
that point. If the Lord is calling you today, if
you're hearing my voice, um. Answer now. Say, Lord, please
step in before it's too late. Before I hit that
point of crisis. Before I hit that point of despair. Um.
But then I would just add in there, the Lord
is good, right? The most profound question that we can
ask is, what does the Lord exist? Does God exist? Right?
(14:03):
Most of human history and most of the globe knows
that answer. The real question is, is the Lord good?
Is he kind? Um. Does he actually want the welfare
of his creatures? Uh, those who he created. And he does.
And he is, um, that is who he is. And
I think even whenever I was first coming to this dilemma, right,
(14:23):
that I talked about earlier, that the Lord could give
joy even in hard circumstances. The reason that I was
terrified of that concept is because I wasn't sure that
he was good. I was suspicious that he wasn't. I
was like, even if he has power, that doesn't mean
he's nice, right?
S5 (14:40):
It's true.
S4 (14:40):
And what I needed to hear and what I hadn't
really heard at that point. Whenever I prayed, that prayer
was just how much God loved me. And that was
the thing that I was missing in the gospel. And
so I would want you to know, most importantly, the gospel,
that Jesus Christ, the Son of God Himself, God in
(15:03):
the flesh, loves you so much that he was willing
to be painfully beaten on your behalf, to forgive you
of the very guilt that hold you from him. He
was willing to endure that even whenever you are hard
headed and don't want to listen to him like I was,
he was willing to do it then. God loves you.
(15:26):
God has paved the way for you, and God has
made salvation possible through the blood of Christ. Like receive that,
if nothing else. So that's what I would say.
Sally, it's always good to have you with us. And
you always bring a special guest with you this morning.
And we'd love to know who is here today.
S2 (00:11):
Oh, thank you so much. I am so excited about
this this morning because several weeks ago I met this
young man, Dustin Hayes, at the Generosity Trust, which is
a wonderful organization here in Chattanooga that does so much
for so many, including donor advised funds and just a
lot of things for faithful people give to the ministry.
(00:33):
And part of what I get to do is to
serve on a scholarship committee for folks that are wanting
to go to seminary, and so we interview many people
we are. It's such a hard decision because these folks
come in and they're so wonderful, and we wish we
could give something to all of them, but we have
to select those that we feel like we can really benefit.
(00:54):
So this young man walks in the room named Dustin
Hayes and after reading his bio, I was already quite
impressed and excited about meeting him. But after hearing his interview,
we knew that he was someone that we wanted to support.
So I don't want to take up any of his time.
So I'm so happy to introduce to you all this morning,
(01:16):
Dustin Hayes.
S3 (01:18):
Thank you so much, Alan. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Sally,
for introducing Dustin. And good morning to you Dustin. Yeah.
S4 (01:24):
Good morning. It's so great to be here.
S1 (01:26):
So, Dustin, um, if we could just ask a question
and we're just going to dive in because we do that,
you know, we don't have a whole lot of decorum here.
We just say, well, Toby does. I just kind of
dive in and just learning a little bit about your story.
We understand that you spent some time in jail. Let
me ask this. What was going on in your life
that actually led you to that season in your life?
S4 (01:46):
Yeah, uh, about 18 years of struggles, of course, but
it all began, uh, born to a 17 year old mother,
absent father. Um, I met him. He was in and
out of my life a lot during those years. Um,
and my mother had a pretty severe drug addiction. Um,
so at 15 years old, we actually ended up homeless. Um,
I was already lonely as a child anyways. But, uh,
(02:09):
we ended up homeless in an area of town that
had a pretty high gang population, and I was taken
in and got to sleep on the couch of a
local gang member who then introduced me, um, to the gang.
And whenever I was 15 years old, I was beat in, uh,
physically beat into that gang and part of it. And
so over the next three years, of course, a lot
of involvement. But whenever I was 18 years old, um,
(02:32):
I was a driver in a robbery that went wrong
and turned into a murder. And so I found myself
facing 51 years in prison at the age of 18
years old. So, yeah, that's that's how I got there.
S3 (02:44):
Oh my goodness. Yeah. You just told a whole lot
in just a few minutes. So I mean, just thinking
about the origin, your origin story. Um, dad's in and out.
Mom's on drugs. End up homeless, but the gang member
takes you in in that vacuum, basically. And then you
found a place of belonging. You're helping out with the
(03:05):
gang stuff and, um, end up in jail. So. So
you were only in jail. You didn't go to prison.
How did. That's a miracle.
S4 (03:15):
Yeah, yeah. Well, first I want to say, like, great
discerning eye there, like that lack of community. That gap
really drove me. We all need community. God has provided
the church to be the community that we go to.
But whenever we don't know that or whenever we don't
feel comfortable there, we find replacements. And those replacements aren't
always healthy. Um, so that is how I ended up there. Um,
(03:38):
going through the story really quickly, I would love to
hone in before I talk about how I got out
of jail. Jail is where I met the Lord, so
I'd love to dive deeper into that and then get
to how I got out, you know.
S1 (03:49):
Thank you for joining us here today. You know, uh,
sometimes you find yourself in desperate The situations, and sometimes
it's because there's a vacuum in your life, and we're
learning a little bit about what happens when that vacuum
is filled by gang activity in life, when when the
church is not where they're supposed to be. And Dustin
Hayes is here with us sharing his story with us
(04:11):
this morning.
S3 (04:12):
So, Dustin, you were just about to get to this
most important part of the story. But that's not the
end of the story. But we're going to call it
the most important because you came to know someone who
changed your life forever. Tell us that story.
S4 (04:27):
Absolutely. And I'll even back up a little bit and say,
you know, I was born and raised here in the South,
so it's not that I had never heard the name
Jesus before. It's not that I had never heard about
God before, but basically, whenever I was 15 going to church,
I had all these feelings of guilt that I didn't
know what to do with. I knew I was sinful,
I knew something was wrong, but I had no power
to deal with the guilt and shame, and also had
(04:49):
no power to deal with the sin itself. So here
I was, years later. Um, whenever I first went to jail,
I was actually put in isolation. Um, so I was
on 24 hour lockdown. No window to the outside world. Like,
literally no physical window to the outside world. Um, and
just by myself and I had a phone call with
my grandmother, and she really encouraged me to, um, start
(05:12):
praying and seeking the Lord. She wasn't particularly a strong
Christian herself, but I think we both knew that if
there was any chance I was going to get out
of the situation I was in, it was going to
take someone with the power of a god to get
me out. And so I picked up a Bible and
I read through the entire thing, uh, in two months, um,
because I was in isolation, I had nothing else to do. Um,
(05:36):
and I was reading through it and just did not
understand it, of course, because I didn't have a good
context for understanding it, which is why it's so important
that we have teachers walk us through and explain it
to us. Uh, but I'm just there. It's just me.
Holy spirit in the Bible, Doing what we do. Um,
and at first I approached Jesus just as this God
(05:57):
who could do things for me, right? Like, please let
me out of jail, please. I don't want to spend
51 years in prison. And I ended up getting a
hold of a C.S. Lewis book that changed the way
that I viewed Christianity pretty substantially. And as I was
reading it, um, I realized that God was not primarily
(06:19):
someone of whom I should be asking things from, but
God was one worthy of giving everything to. Right? And
I started to realize, oh wait, let's not just ask
God for things. Let's figure out who is this God?
And is he worthy of everything? I particularly realized, oh wait,
this is a God who can call you to even
(06:42):
hard circumstances and give you joy. And that was a
terrifying concept, because that meant that he may call me
to 51 years in prison make me joyful. And then
I'm just there. And so I was wrestling with this.
But Lewis really pressed home the fact that I should
be submitting my all to Christ. And so I got
(07:02):
down on my knees one day and just said, Lord,
kill everything I've ever been and make me who you
want me to be. I had no clue what I
was asking, right? But like that was the spark. Um.
As I continued to try to figure this whole Christianity
thing out, I actually discovered Moody Radio. Um, I was
scrolling through. I had a little hand radio that I
(07:23):
had bought off commissary, and, um, I started hearing teachers
that were reinforcing the same thing. This is a God
worthy of worship. This is a God worthy of my
entire life and my entire being. Um, and they started
to help fill in those gaps and help me to
understand what this Bible was that I was picking up.
It's weird to pick up a book that was written
(07:44):
to ancient Near Eastern Israelites and then say, talk to me.
S5 (07:48):
Yeah. Yeah. How hard could that be? Right? Exactly.
S4 (07:54):
And so faithful teachers such as Alistair Begg, Colin Smith,
just so many people that are featured on Moody Radio
became gods whenever no one else could really get to me. Um,
and so I really poured myself into that. I started
praying because Moody kept talking about the different pastors, the
different programs. Even though this is a great resource for
(08:17):
during the week to connect us to God and to
bring the word to our living rooms, to our cars,
to our workplaces. It doesn't replace church, right? It doesn't
replace that local body. And so I started to pray, Lord,
please let me out of jail so I can go
to a local body. Um, and he didn't do that.
But what he did was eight months into my sentence,
(08:38):
he allowed me to go into the only pod in
the jail that had five Bible studies from volunteers from
ministers around the area would come in and lead these
Bible studies, five Bible studies a week where I could
be discipled by brothers and sisters in the Lord who
had more life experience than me and things like that.
So that was all kind of the initial start. Um,
(09:02):
and then the really fun part was whenever I finally
understood the gospel.
S1 (09:06):
Mornings with Tom and Toby speaking with Dustin Hays, who
had a very tumultuous upbringing, tumultuous life, found himself in
jail with the possibility of going to prison for 51 years.
But yet, while he's in jail, he hears about the
Lord Jesus Christ that he had heard growing up but
got to know him. On a personal level.
S3 (09:26):
I just am. I mean, I wish I could talk
to you for hours, Dustin, about this, but you shared
some really key things. You first told us that in
this difficult moment of your life of homelessness and parents
were having their own struggles, the gang members saw you
and offered help. Now in jail, Churches have shown up
(09:48):
with these Bible studies and people were there volunteering their
time and teaching, and that's awesome. Now I want to
go back to that first seeing. Why doesn't why don't
we as church people? Why don't we see people in
that distress moment to step in and help? And how
can we better see people and help?
S4 (10:08):
Yeah, man. And we could definitely spend hours just answering
that question, right? Um, one reason is just because we
have preconceived notions, right? Like, we think we know people. Um,
we're very hesitant. Um, but we also think we know
we ourselves. Um, and so we think of ourselves almost
as saviors, right? And so if you'll listen to my voice,
(10:30):
I'll see you and you can follow me. But if
you don't listen to my voice like I've got better
things to do with my time. Ooh. Um. And we
don't we don't know that we ourselves are desperately in
need of redemption. We are desperately need in Jesus of
Jesus teaching us through our brothers and sisters or unbelievers
who are in material poverty say, for example, um, they
(10:53):
have something to teach us and something to show us
about ourselves, about God, about everything. And so our pride,
our preconceived notions of what people are, they all get
in the way of us being able to just kind
of break down the barriers and build the bridges, uh,
in honest relationship. But I would also say that we
have a friendship deficiency in America, right? We don't think
(11:16):
about even if I said the word intimacy here. Right.
I think a lot of Americans hear that word, and
they either get afraid or they they take it to
places that are, um, not friendship, right? Beyond that to
romantic relationships.
S3 (11:29):
Or sexual or.
S4 (11:30):
Exactly. And, um, we don't we don't know how to
have intimate relationships even with the people that we're comfortable with. Right?
We're not good at practicing brother and sisterhood to each other, uh,
inviting each other into our homes and saying, look at
my mess, but be here with me. Right. We're not
good at that. So if you're not good at that,
with the people that are close to you and you're
(11:52):
comfortable with, how are you ever going to build that
type of relationship to someone who's different than you? Right.
And I was different. The gang members were the same
and therefore they were comfortable with me. We've got to
get comfortable first with the people there, the same with
us and become intimate with them, brothers and sisters, and
really dig deep into relationship and then do that so
(12:13):
much that we can actually start to be comfortable with
people that are different than us and build those relationships.
S3 (12:19):
Yeah.
S4 (12:19):
So that would be my quick answer.
S5 (12:21):
Yeah. That is your quick answer.
S3 (12:23):
You need to be president. You need to be king,
and you need to be a preacher, which maybe you
will be. But but that was profound.
S5 (12:31):
Yeah, it really was.
S1 (12:32):
It just beautifully articulated about, you know, the deficiencies that
we are seeing. I think, um, culturally, we're seeing it
within the church as well. And just that isolation away
from one another. And you put it really well. If
we can't have relationship with those that we are similar to,
how are we going to ever be able to reach
out to those who are different than us?
S4 (12:52):
Absolutely. Yeah.
S1 (12:54):
Okay. So let me ask you this. Um, there's so
many different pathways that we can take on this. One does.
And just, just quickly, um, let me take it from
the the viewpoint of those people that are in the
situation that you were in prior to, um, going to jail. Uh,
there's somebody that's walking that road right now. There's a
vacuum in their life. And, uh, what is the message
(13:17):
that you want them to know?
S4 (13:19):
Yeah. Uh, there's there's many messages. Uh, one of them
would be, um, don't don't let a crisis be the
trigger for change, right? Uh, let my crisis be your crisis. Right?
It took me going to jail and facing 51 years
before I would finally listen to God and give him
my ear. Right. Um, don't allow yourself to get to
(13:41):
that point. If the Lord is calling you today, if
you're hearing my voice, um. Answer now. Say, Lord, please
step in before it's too late. Before I hit that
point of crisis. Before I hit that point of despair. Um.
But then I would just add in there, the Lord
is good, right? The most profound question that we can
ask is, what does the Lord exist? Does God exist? Right?
(14:03):
Most of human history and most of the globe knows
that answer. The real question is, is the Lord good?
Is he kind? Um. Does he actually want the welfare
of his creatures? Uh, those who he created. And he does.
And he is, um, that is who he is. And
I think even whenever I was first coming to this dilemma, right,
(14:23):
that I talked about earlier, that the Lord could give
joy even in hard circumstances. The reason that I was
terrified of that concept is because I wasn't sure that
he was good. I was suspicious that he wasn't. I
was like, even if he has power, that doesn't mean
he's nice, right?
S5 (14:40):
It's true.
S4 (14:40):
And what I needed to hear and what I hadn't
really heard at that point. Whenever I prayed, that prayer
was just how much God loved me. And that was
the thing that I was missing in the gospel. And
so I would want you to know, most importantly, the gospel,
that Jesus Christ, the Son of God Himself, God in
(15:03):
the flesh, loves you so much that he was willing
to be painfully beaten on your behalf, to forgive you
of the very guilt that hold you from him. He
was willing to endure that even whenever you are hard
headed and don't want to listen to him like I was,
he was willing to do it then. God loves you.
(15:26):
God has paved the way for you, and God has
made salvation possible through the blood of Christ. Like receive that,
if nothing else. So that's what I would say.
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