July 22, 2025 • 29 mins
Ever feel like your team is stuck in a loop, talking about the same old ideas and running into the same roadblocks? What if you could ignite a creative revolution in your business, unlocking potential you didn't even know you had?
Get ready to have your entire perspective on creativity transformed. In this game-changing episode, I sit down with the incredible Dr. Amy Climer, an expert in team innovation who works with elite organizations like Mayo Clinic and Stanford University, and the author of the new book, "Deliberate Creative Teams."
We demolish the myth that creativity is a rare gift for "artistic types" and reveal the truth: creativity is a fundamental business skill that can be learned, practiced, and measured. Dr. Climer breaks down her powerful, research-backed framework for innovation, showing you exactly how to guide your team from a spark of an idea to a fully implemented, game-changing solution.
In this episode, you will discover:
- The surprising definition of creativity that will make you realize you are far more creative than you think.
- The four essential stages of creative problem-solving: Clarify, Ideate, Develop, and Implement.
- Why your team's natural tension between "talkers" (Clarifiers) and "doers" (Implementers) is actually a secret weapon, if you know how to use it.
- The critical difference between divergent thinking (generating ideas) and convergent thinking (evaluating them), and why your brain physically can't do both at the same time.
- Four simple rules for brainstorming that will banish judgment and lead to a flood of wild, innovative ideas.
- A powerful, real-world example of how a manufacturing company used these exact principles to reclaim significant production time and boost their bottom line.
If you're ready to move beyond frustrating meetings and unleash your team's true innovative power, you cannot afford to miss this conversation.
Ready for a deeper dive? Check out Dr. Amy Climer's new book, "Deliberate Creative Teams: How to Lead for Innovative Results," and connect with her on LinkedIn or at ClimberConsulting.com.
#TeamCreativity
#Innovation
#Leadership
#CreativeTeams
#BusinessInnovation
#ProblemSolving
#UnlockCreativity
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Just like a mosaic is made up of individual pieces
that create a beautiful mosaic,your business is a tapestry of
interconnected parts On theMosaic Life.
We'll explore those parts of abusiness, from marketing to
finance, to mindset andinnovation.
I'm your host, lauraWagner-Kanesh, and together
(00:29):
we'll discover how to arrangethose pieces to create a
thriving and fulfilling business.
Welcome and thank you fortuning into the show.
To reach me, contact Laura atmosaicbusinessconsultingcom.
And I got to tell you I havebeen waiting for this interview
for I don't know how long, it isso exciting to have her on
board.
So today my guest is none otherthan Dr Amy Clymer, and she
(00:52):
teaches teams and organizationshow to increase their creativity
so they can maximize innovation.
She works with forward-thinkingorganizations such as the Mayo
Clinic, stanford University andthe US Department of Homeland
Security.
Yeah, very small low-ballhitters I can see.
Yeah, uh-huh.
(01:12):
Amy is now the author of a newbook Deliberate Creative Teams
how to Lead for InnovativeResults.
I love it.
Put it back up there.
She is also the host of theDeliberate Creative Podcast it's
a tongue twister where sheshares practical advice and
strategies for leaders to buildinnovative teams.
(01:36):
Amy has a PhD in leadership andchange and is a certified
speaking professional not aneasy feat and then today she is
going to share her research oncreative teams.
So welcome to the show, amy.
It is so great to have you here.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh, thank you so much , Laura.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, I'm just thrilled.
And you know is creativity, andwhy is it people like me think
we have none and why is it thatyou people like you think we
have some?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
so, okay, let's start with what it is, with the
definition.
So there's definitely a lot ofconfusion and a lot of myths
around creativity.
So the definition and I didn'tmake this up, this comes from
the research literature iscreativity is novelty that is
valuable.
So what that means is, you know, novelty meaning new, original,
(02:41):
unique, different, and thenvaluable.
It could be somethingfinancially valuable that's
usually where we go first, butit also could be emotionally
valuable, intellectuallyvaluable, it could just be fun.
So creativity is essentiallydoing something new that adds
value in some way.
You're basically solvingproblems.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So you're also saying , when we play and we're having
fun in a way we haven't had funbefore, that is creative.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Sure, absolutely, that could be.
In fact, that's actually that'swhere, as kids, we learn to be
creative is through play.
It's actually a reallyimportant part of our
development.
But even as adults, we stillneed it is through play.
It's actually a reallyimportant part of our
development.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
But even as adults we still need it some.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like thoseboard games or Jeopardy or
whatever it is right.
Yeah.
So what do you tell somebodylike me who thinks oh, I'm not
creative at all, I simply copyeverybody else?
What do you tell me?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Well, I think some of it is just understanding what
creativity is.
You know, like we just talkedabout that, you know, if you're
copying somebody else, you'retaking what they did and
hopefully you're doing it in aslightly different way.
So we're not talking aboutplagiarism per se.
I'm assuming we're talkingabout, you know, taking some
inspiration from anotherbusiness coach or another
(04:06):
company and saying, oh, I likewhat they did, I'm going to do
something similar, but I'm goingto add my own twist, I'm going
to add my own perspective, andthis happens all the time in the
world.
This is how I mean.
Like anything that you canthink of is probably been
iterated by different people.
Like anything that you canthink of has probably been
iterated by different people,right, I mean even the fact that
(04:27):
we're using Zoom to make thisrecording.
Yeah, Zoom didn't invent thisconcept, right, there was Skype
before that and all these othercompanies that created this like
video thing, and it's just beeniterated and improved, and so
there's a certain aspect of thatcopying that is a normal part
of us as humans.
I think people get confusedabout creativity because they
(04:50):
think and we were talking aboutthis before we started the
recording is creativity, has todo with our ability to draw and
it doesn't.
It has nothing to do with thatand I don't know quite the
source of that.
I mean, I know most of us havehad experiences as kids where
you know we had bad experiences,told we weren't creative
(05:11):
because we couldn't draw.
So maybe it gets all confusedin our head.
But as adults, I mean, unlessyou are a professional artist,
your ability to draw is actuallynot that important, nor is it
directly connected to yourability to be creative.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Right.
And so when you're thinkingabout it in terms of teams,
which I think you're talkingabout it, I'm wondering, like
the various aspects ofcreativity within a team or even
as the whole company, becausewhen you're talking about a Mayo
Clinic, I mean it's huge right,and you have departments that
(05:46):
might be teams.
So you know, what are some ofthe things we want to think
about when you're talking aboutincorporating that creativity
into a team that's a larger,maybe a larger company, and then
we can shrink it, if you don'tmind larger, maybe a larger
company, and then we can shrinkit, if you don't mind.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, so I think that there's sort of maybe just a
little bit of lingo.
When I think of a team, I amthinking of a small group of
people.
So generally three to 15 is agood size.
Sometimes maybe it's up to 20.
If it's more than that, then Iwould consider that an
organization or like multipleteams that are together.
Now, let's say you have 50people in the room and they're
(06:32):
being referred to as a team.
The reality is they're probablysub teams.
Right, you know little siloedteams yeah exactly, you know,
and they might do a really greatjob of communicating and
collaborating with each other.
But yeah, so I think there'slike that organizational level
which is important, but thenthere's also that team level.
A lot of my work happens atthat team level and I get really
(06:55):
jazzed about that Because Imean, you know, an organization
is made up of a bunch ofindividual teams, right, and
there's a lot of power in theteams and basically teams are
the number one source ofinnovation in organizations
hands down, and so I thinkthere's a lot of that's really
(07:16):
important.
The teams are super important.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, and you talk about innovation again, and you
also talk about the team size,which I think is fascinating.
And so when we think about,let's break that down to give
people context.
If we're thinking about, let'ssay, a marketing team, you might
have somebody for graphics,another team that's working on
the website, another team that'sworking on social media or
(07:39):
content development or somethinglike that, but they're
sub-teams of that, that 50 pluspeople that you were talking
about.
And then, secondly, I'mthinking about that innovation.
I liked how you mentioned thathere we are on a Zoom call that
is allowing us to see each otherlive video streamed, but video
(08:03):
didn't come around.
It had iterations to get tothat point, and so we're talking
about a camera that switched tosomething else, that switched
right.
And so when we think ofinnovation, why is it that so
many of us get stuck in that ifit's not new enough or big
(08:24):
enough, then it's not innovative?
What can we do?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's just, you know, again
like a lot of myths andmisunderstanding about what
innovation is and what we, whatwe call innovative, and but I
think if we, most of us, if wewill also say most of us
probably don't think aboutinnovation that much, if we,
most of us, if we will also saymost of us probably don't think
about innovation that much, Ithink about it sort of a
(08:51):
ridiculous amount, but when wereally think about it, it makes
sense that things are moreiterative.
There's sort of these phrases.
We sometimes use the phrase inthe creativity research of
evolutionary innovation orevolutionary creativity, and
then revolutionary creativity.
But the reality is, even ifyou're looking at something
revolutionary, if you pull backthe curtain and break it down,
(09:15):
it's just all these little steps.
I mean even something like theiPhone, which you know we really
put up on a pedestal.
They didn't invent smartphones,they didn't invent cell phones,
they just did it, they iteratedand did it a pedestal.
They didn't invent smartphones,they didn't invent cell phones,
they just did it, they iteratedand did it a little better and
a little better, and they hadsome standards they were meeting
.
And so I think a lot of it isthat unless you're really
(09:36):
digging into the creativity andthe innovation, it can just look
like a black box and we don'tsee it.
It's very much you know, andI'm sure you see this in your
work is you know the businessesthat just like exploded
overnight, like this overnightsuccess?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, they're not anovernight success.
They've been working theirbutts off for 10 years, right,
(09:57):
or 15 years, and all of a sudden, yeah.
So I think it's more of aalmost like a marketing or a PR
thing, a problem that it is.
You know, that's justperpetuating that
misunderstanding and it's flashy.
It's cool to think like, oh, wedid this like revolutionary
thing and but it's maybe not.
(10:18):
And so that's something I wouldjust encourage listeners don't
get caught up in that hype.
That creativity is really, atthe end of the day, it is about
sitting down and it's doing thehard work and maybe that's go
ahead.
I apologize, well, and I wasgonna say maybe that's the the.
The challenge with it is thatit does require hard work, which
(10:40):
, well, that's hard at timesexactly, and I do think you're
talking about a process that weall need to go through.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
But it also seems to me that there has to be not just
the mythic or myth barriersthat we have to creativity, but
what are those barriers tocreativity?
What's blocking us from ourability to think we're creative
or to be creative?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I think part of it is thatcreativity is a skill and so
it's just like you know, if youwant to be a better leader, then
you would study leadership.
You might read some books or goto some trainings, get some
feedback and you'd practicethese skills.
And creativity is the same way,but the problem is we're not
(11:35):
teaching that very often.
But the problem is we're notteaching that very often.
So what would be ideal thisdoesn't happen is if we were to
teach creativity in school.
You know, like in middle school,high school, if we start
teaching students how to be morecreative, helping them
understand, there's a processthat I teach is called creative
(11:55):
problem solving.
There's four stages to it, andif we understood that, we'd
actually be able to produce morecreative, innovative results.
But instead what happens is wego to school K-12 education and
we are taught information wherewe take multiple choice test
(12:17):
questions, and then we become anadult and I can't think of a
single time in my entire lifewhere a boss came to me and said
hey, could you please solvethis problem and please select
choice A, B or C?
Right, Like it never happens.
Instead, we are asked to dosomething, something.
(12:37):
There's usually many right waysor many good ways, and so it's
this disconnect between the waywe were taught growing up and
then now, as an adult, what,what we're expected, and I think
it creates a lot of confusionand, yeah, yeah, I could see
that and and it's explained someof that idea that you talked
(12:59):
about a four step process.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What is that four step process?
You talked about to becomingcreative, or you know what is it
for us?
To tap into our creativity, ifyou will.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, so it's called the creative problem
solving process and there's someother.
There's a bunch of processesout there.
At least you know half a dozenor a dozen of them.
They're all very, very similar.
This is the one that I teach myclients.
There's four stages.
The first stage is clarify,where we've got a problem and
we're trying to clarify what'sthe situation, what are we
(13:34):
trying to do?
What's, what, do we need tochange?
It's a time where you'regenerally asking a lot of
questions, doing some research,kind of figuring it out.
So there's a clarify stage.
The next stage is ideate, whereyou're generating lots of ideas
to solve that particular problemyou just figured out.
So clarify, ideate.
Now, in that ideate stage,hopefully you generate lots of
(13:57):
ideas.
I'm not talking like two, three, four ideas, but dozens, maybe
hundreds, depending on the scaleof the problem.
And some of those I would saymany of those ideas will not be
worthwhile, but maybe 10% ofthem.
And so let's say you have, uh,the you can do.
You can generate 100 ideas,which doesn't take as long as
(14:18):
you would think.
You now have 10 ideas that arereally good or really
potentially viable.
We don't know if they're goodyet, but they're like, okay,
these have some potential.
Take those 10 ideas into thenext stage, which is develop,
where you develop those ideas abit further, see, okay, do we
think this will work?
If so, what might it look like?
And then, finally, you'reimplementing.
(14:40):
And that implementation mightbe your prototyping, your
testing, you're pilotingsomething out.
I always encourage my clientswhat's the smallest scale you
can start with, instead ofbuilding out this huge thing?
What can you do in a very shorttime to just see if this might
work?
So, clarify, ideate, develop,implement.
(15:04):
And the challenge with this iswell, first let me back up and
say this is based on how we, ashumans, naturally solve problems
.
So this sort of came about inthe 1940s and the researchers
who were looking at it theydidn't like invent it, they
didn't make it up, but they justobserved people and realized,
(15:25):
oh, this is what we naturally do.
So it's innate in us to do this.
But there's a big problem, andthat is because each of us has a
preference for one or more ofthose four areas Right, and we
want to stay in that space aslong as we can because it feels
really good, and then we don'twant to move to the next stage
(15:49):
or we want to hurry up and getto that last stage.
If we love implementing andthere's a measurement that you
can measure, you test yourself.
It's called foresight.
I'm trained in this and I useit with my clients and as an
example.
I love ideating and I loveimplementing.
I'm not the best at clarifyingand developing idea of something
(16:13):
I want to do and I'm like allright, cool, let's go, let's get
started, and it's, it's fun,it's energizing for me.
But then when I go to getstarted, I'm like um wait a
(16:42):
minute Like why am I doing this?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And it's so funny you say that because I I'm similar
in that regard like this idea.
Oh, now I've got to develop aprocess.
Not only do we stop things, butwe have the doers, we have the
(17:05):
thinkers, we have thestrategizers.
You want all of them.
But there's another block thatI think you're not talking
through.
Think you're not talkingthrough and I sense that that
might be part of this iscommunication and how we don't
necessarily talk on the samelevel.
Right, we're talking aroundeach other, over each other,
(17:28):
under each other,unintentionally just having
conversation, and we're thinkingwell.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Of course they think that because that's what I'm
thinking right in conversationand we're thinking well of
course they think that, becausethat's what I'm thinking, right,
right, I know we all, we oftenthink that everyone else thinks
the way we do.
But you know, life teaches us.
That's not, that's not exactly,and I'm thinking about the
brainstorming, right.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So we're all throwing out and spitballing ideas and
stuff like that and somebody'sidea over here might connect
really well with somebody's ideaover here and the two of them
together could be that perfectsolution.
But how do you get people pasttheir egos, past their
challenges, to communicate andarticulate what they're trying
(18:12):
to do?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah Well, first I'll say you've nailed it Like this
is exactly the challenge withteams, right?
Right, and you've also.
Not only is it the challenge,it's the strength, right that,
yeah, I love when I get to workwith clarifiers and developers,
because together we're going tobe rock stars, you know Exactly.
Yeah, with clients around.
(18:34):
This issue is one of the firstthings is we do this foresight
assessment so they can see wheretheir preferences lie, and that
create a problem solvingprocess.
And then, you know, I could putup a graph of the entire team,
or even the entire organization,depending how big we're going,
and that's really cool to seethat sometimes you'll have
(18:55):
organizations like I just workedwith the manufacturing company.
They have a lot of clarifiersand implementers, and so they
had people that were asking goodquestions and then they wanted
to get started, but they had twoideators out of 55 people and
so they weren't generating likea lot of new ideas.
But now that they know that theycan also recognize okay, let's
(19:19):
slow down, the implementersdon't want to talk about it,
they want to get started, wherethe clarifiers want to talk
about it a lot and don't beforethey get started.
And so, even if you just look atthose two groups and they can
understand each other'sperspective.
They can slow down a little bitand think, okay, let's start
with clarifying, let's give theclarifier, let's ask some
(19:40):
questions, because evenimplementers need to clarify,
yes, and then let's tap into theideators and see if they can
help generate some more ideas.
And then you go to develop andimplement and so forth and see
if you can slow that down andyou recognize where you are in
the process.
If I'm a strong implementer, Iknow, okay, we're clarifying
(20:02):
right now, my time will come.
I can be patient, I canparticipate, I can engage in
this and I'll know that once weget to my stage, I'll get to,
like, hit the ground runningright Versus.
Before you go throughunderstanding, foresight, you're
just butting heads because youdon't get the whole process.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, not only is that true and that, I think, is
also part of the challenge forlarger organizations, where the
right hand doesn't know what theleft hand is doing, but
additionally, I'm thinking aboutthis idea that there's a
thought that clarifiers are thenaysayers, if you will.
They're the people who arepicking things apart and saying,
(20:44):
well, can we do this?
If you know, if this, then thatkind of an approach, and
they're they're saying, well, wedon't have a mechanism in place
, or if we have a mechanism inplace, it's not very effective
or it won't help, or you know.
And so I think that there'salso that, like you have the go
go, go, go go people and youhave the well, wait a minute.
(21:05):
Uh, hello, what about what if?
Um, so how do you encourageboth voices to be heard and
recognized and appreciated andvalued but, at the same time,
recognize that there's going tobe frustration and potential
(21:25):
conflict there?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
yeah, this is a great question and this is one that
most teams struggle with at somepoint, if not regularly, yeah,
and so the first thing I try toexplain is this concept, uh,
between divergent thinking andconvergent thinking.
And so divergent thinking iswhat you know we think of, the
classic brainstorming, wherewe're generating ideas, we're
(21:50):
thinking broad and bold andwe're might be a little bit all
over the place.
And then there's convergentthinking, where you're
evaluating the ideas.
You can, you can almost thinkof divergent as like throwing
stuff in a bucket or funnel andthen converging is pushing it
through that funnel to what'sthe best idea for this context.
Now, what happens in our brainsis that we physically can't do
(22:16):
both those at the same time.
I know, right, a huge bummer,multitasking doesn't actually
work, right.
We all know that by now.
So, so when you're in, whenyou're trying to generate ideas,
you're trying to be creative,you want to let the team know,
okay, we're going to be in somedivergent thinking, of divergent
(22:37):
thinking mode for five minutes,10 minutes an hour, whatever it
is, and then we're going tomove into convergent thinking
and we're going to select thebest ideas.
And if teams understand thatand they know well, I'm not so
sure about that idea, but let mejust hang on because I know
I'll have that opportunity, sothat is super helpful.
(23:00):
There's actually these rulesthat we use for divergent
thinking to help us understand,like, hey, we're just going to
hang out in this space.
It's a little weird but it's OK.
And those rules are suspendjudgment you get to judge the
ideas.
Just not yet, cause judgingideas is very important because,
well, there are bad ideas inthe world, right?
(23:22):
So suspend judgment, um,combine and build on ideas.
So you know, laura, you sharean idea, I share an idea.
A third team member might likesay oh yes, let's take both
those and do this.
That's awesome.
Go a little wacky and wild, gofor wild ideas.
And then the fourth one is gofor quantity.
(23:44):
So quantity leads to quality.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
That's the concept that I see, that's the concept
that I see.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
You're not going for the first or second idea
necessarily, let's just.
Let's just make a list, youknow, pull out the flip chart,
pull out the post-it notes,whatever you need, and get as
many ideas down as you can, andyou can set a timer and
literally in five minutes youcan get quite a few ideas.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
And then from there, like, okay, we got all these
ideas up.
Let's now start evaluating andjudging them with the businesses
that you've worked with as faras their return on investment or
as far as their growth as anorganization or their expansion
(24:40):
of creativity and innovation.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, I will say, one of the challenges I have is I'm
often with businesses, kind ofon that front end, and then they
go off and implement whateverwe've come up with and I don't
get, I don't know.
But I can still share with youa little bit Some examples of
things I've worked with.
Just recently I worked with amanufacturing company and we had
(25:08):
about 55 people in the room.
We spent a day and a halftogether.
They were in about 10 differentteams and each team was looking
at a different problem withinthe organization.
We had a total of five problems, so two teams per problem, and
they walked away with someexcellent ideas.
And these were things like.
(25:29):
One of the problems was a 24hour manufacturing facility and
one of the issues they had isthat when a new shift would
start, there was about a halfhour or so of just dead time,
like nothing was happening inthe plant, and they were trying
to figure out how do we makethis a little smoother, a little
(25:49):
quicker?
I mean, obviously there's gonnabe some downtime, but does it
need to really be 30 minutes?
Can we make this 10 minutes, 15?
And, and there was, it was justyeah.
So they came up with some newideas to address that problem
and if you multiply the numbersof, let's say, they got 15
minutes more of productivity outof three different shifts.
(26:12):
So 45 minutes a day multipliedby 365.
It was a 24, seven plant.
Yeah, I don't know what thatnumber is, but it's in the
billions.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, it's insane.
That's fantastic.
Yeah, not only improveproductivity and efficiency,
you've also, then saved thecompany so much more because
they're producing and notsitting around.
Yeah, so they're not spendingmoney, they're, they're
(26:44):
producing.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, so they're not just saving, they're making
money.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah, that's a great combo.
That's fantastic.
Well, so if people want to getin touch with you, how can they
contact you?
I know we could keep going, butyou know there is a limit,
unfortunately there is a limit.
So if people want to reach outto you, how can they contact?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
you.
You can certainly find me onLinkedIn at Amy Clymer, dr Amy
Clymer.
My website is Clymerconsultingcom, which is
C-L-I-M-E-R consulting.
You can also check out my brandnew book.
It just came out February 2025.
It's called Deliberate CreativeTeams how to Lead for
Innovative Results.
(27:23):
I'm really excited.
I share the process that wejust talked about, as well as
this model I created on thethree elements teams need if
they want to be creativetogether, and there's some good
stories in there as well.
So, yeah, check it out.
I'm very excited about it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, and I know we didn't get to that and I would
love to keep talking becausethere there were.
Those three steps are reallyfantastic and yeah, so I'll just
have to have you back.
Yeah, so I'll just have to haveyou back, so maybe we can do
(28:17):
that another time.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
But I really appreciate human brain is and
how amazing and innovative weare, that AI cannot be Exactly.
Yeah, I think that creativityand innovation this is what sets
us apart as humans, and as wehave incredible capacity as
humans, I really believe we canpretty much solve all the
problems on the planet, whichmost of them we created in the
first place.
But I think we have thatcapacity if we're able to tap
(28:41):
into our collaborativecreativity.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, so great.
Well, thank you so much foryour time, amy.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, laura, thank you,the audience, for listening to
the Mosaic Life.
Thanks so much for listening.
Have a great rest of your day.
Just like a mosaic is made up of individual pieces
that create a beautiful mosaic,your business is a tapestry of
interconnected parts On theMosaic Life.
We'll explore those parts of abusiness, from marketing to
finance, to mindset andinnovation.
I'm your host, lauraWagner-Kanesh, and together
(00:29):
we'll discover how to arrangethose pieces to create a
thriving and fulfilling business.
Welcome and thank you fortuning into the show.
To reach me, contact Laura atmosaicbusinessconsultingcom.
And I got to tell you I havebeen waiting for this interview
for I don't know how long, it isso exciting to have her on
board.
So today my guest is none otherthan Dr Amy Clymer, and she
(00:52):
teaches teams and organizationshow to increase their creativity
so they can maximize innovation.
She works with forward-thinkingorganizations such as the Mayo
Clinic, stanford University andthe US Department of Homeland
Security.
Yeah, very small low-ballhitters I can see.
Yeah, uh-huh.
(01:12):
Amy is now the author of a newbook Deliberate Creative Teams
how to Lead for InnovativeResults.
I love it.
Put it back up there.
She is also the host of theDeliberate Creative Podcast it's
a tongue twister where sheshares practical advice and
strategies for leaders to buildinnovative teams.
(01:36):
Amy has a PhD in leadership andchange and is a certified
speaking professional not aneasy feat and then today she is
going to share her research oncreative teams.
So welcome to the show, amy.
It is so great to have you here.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Oh, thank you so much , Laura.
I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, I'm just thrilled.
And you know is creativity, andwhy is it people like me think
we have none and why is it thatyou people like you think we
have some?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
so, okay, let's start with what it is, with the
definition.
So there's definitely a lot ofconfusion and a lot of myths
around creativity.
So the definition and I didn'tmake this up, this comes from
the research literature iscreativity is novelty that is
valuable.
So what that means is, you know, novelty meaning new, original,
(02:41):
unique, different, and thenvaluable.
It could be somethingfinancially valuable that's
usually where we go first, butit also could be emotionally
valuable, intellectuallyvaluable, it could just be fun.
So creativity is essentiallydoing something new that adds
value in some way.
You're basically solvingproblems.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So you're also saying , when we play and we're having
fun in a way we haven't had funbefore, that is creative.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Sure, absolutely, that could be.
In fact, that's actually that'swhere, as kids, we learn to be
creative is through play.
It's actually a reallyimportant part of our
development.
But even as adults, we stillneed it is through play.
It's actually a reallyimportant part of our
development.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
But even as adults we still need it some.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Like thoseboard games or Jeopardy or
whatever it is right.
Yeah.
So what do you tell somebodylike me who thinks oh, I'm not
creative at all, I simply copyeverybody else?
What do you tell me?
Speaker 2 (03:46):
Well, I think some of it is just understanding what
creativity is.
You know, like we just talkedabout that, you know, if you're
copying somebody else, you'retaking what they did and
hopefully you're doing it in aslightly different way.
So we're not talking aboutplagiarism per se.
I'm assuming we're talkingabout, you know, taking some
inspiration from anotherbusiness coach or another
(04:06):
company and saying, oh, I likewhat they did, I'm going to do
something similar, but I'm goingto add my own twist, I'm going
to add my own perspective, andthis happens all the time in the
world.
This is how I mean.
Like anything that you canthink of is probably been
iterated by different people.
Like anything that you canthink of has probably been
iterated by different people,right, I mean even the fact that
(04:27):
we're using Zoom to make thisrecording.
Yeah, Zoom didn't invent thisconcept, right, there was Skype
before that and all these othercompanies that created this like
video thing, and it's just beeniterated and improved, and so
there's a certain aspect of thatcopying that is a normal part
of us as humans.
I think people get confusedabout creativity because they
(04:50):
think and we were talking aboutthis before we started the
recording is creativity, has todo with our ability to draw and
it doesn't.
It has nothing to do with thatand I don't know quite the
source of that.
I mean, I know most of us havehad experiences as kids where
you know we had bad experiences,told we weren't creative
(05:11):
because we couldn't draw.
So maybe it gets all confusedin our head.
But as adults, I mean, unlessyou are a professional artist,
your ability to draw is actuallynot that important, nor is it
directly connected to yourability to be creative.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Right.
And so when you're thinkingabout it in terms of teams,
which I think you're talkingabout it, I'm wondering, like
the various aspects ofcreativity within a team or even
as the whole company, becausewhen you're talking about a Mayo
Clinic, I mean it's huge right,and you have departments that
(05:46):
might be teams.
So you know, what are some ofthe things we want to think
about when you're talking aboutincorporating that creativity
into a team that's a larger,maybe a larger company, and then
we can shrink it, if you don'tmind larger, maybe a larger
company, and then we can shrinkit, if you don't mind.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Yeah, so I think that there's sort of maybe just a
little bit of lingo.
When I think of a team, I amthinking of a small group of
people.
So generally three to 15 is agood size.
Sometimes maybe it's up to 20.
If it's more than that, then Iwould consider that an
organization or like multipleteams that are together.
Now, let's say you have 50people in the room and they're
(06:32):
being referred to as a team.
The reality is they're probablysub teams.
Right, you know little siloedteams yeah exactly, you know,
and they might do a really greatjob of communicating and
collaborating with each other.
But yeah, so I think there'slike that organizational level
which is important, but thenthere's also that team level.
A lot of my work happens atthat team level and I get really
(06:55):
jazzed about that Because Imean, you know, an organization
is made up of a bunch ofindividual teams, right, and
there's a lot of power in theteams and basically teams are
the number one source ofinnovation in organizations
hands down, and so I thinkthere's a lot of that's really
(07:16):
important.
The teams are super important.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, and you talk about innovation again, and you
also talk about the team size,which I think is fascinating.
And so when we think about,let's break that down to give
people context.
If we're thinking about, let'ssay, a marketing team, you might
have somebody for graphics,another team that's working on
the website, another team that'sworking on social media or
(07:39):
content development or somethinglike that, but they're
sub-teams of that, that 50 pluspeople that you were talking
about.
And then, secondly, I'mthinking about that innovation.
I liked how you mentioned thathere we are on a Zoom call that
is allowing us to see each otherlive video streamed, but video
(08:03):
didn't come around.
It had iterations to get tothat point, and so we're talking
about a camera that switched tosomething else, that switched
right.
And so when we think ofinnovation, why is it that so
many of us get stuck in that ifit's not new enough or big
(08:24):
enough, then it's not innovative?
What can we do?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yeah, I mean, I think that's just, you know, again
like a lot of myths andmisunderstanding about what
innovation is and what we, whatwe call innovative, and but I
think if we, most of us, if wewill also say most of us
probably don't think aboutinnovation that much, if we,
most of us, if we will also saymost of us probably don't think
about innovation that much, Ithink about it sort of a
(08:51):
ridiculous amount, but when wereally think about it, it makes
sense that things are moreiterative.
There's sort of these phrases.
We sometimes use the phrase inthe creativity research of
evolutionary innovation orevolutionary creativity, and
then revolutionary creativity.
But the reality is, even ifyou're looking at something
revolutionary, if you pull backthe curtain and break it down,
(09:15):
it's just all these little steps.
I mean even something like theiPhone, which you know we really
put up on a pedestal.
They didn't invent smartphones,they didn't invent cell phones,
they just did it, they iteratedand did it a pedestal.
They didn't invent smartphones,they didn't invent cell phones,
they just did it, they iteratedand did it a little better and
a little better, and they hadsome standards they were meeting
.
And so I think a lot of it isthat unless you're really
(09:36):
digging into the creativity andthe innovation, it can just look
like a black box and we don'tsee it.
It's very much you know, andI'm sure you see this in your
work is you know the businessesthat just like exploded
overnight, like this overnightsuccess?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, no, they're not anovernight success.
They've been working theirbutts off for 10 years, right,
(09:57):
or 15 years, and all of a sudden, yeah.
So I think it's more of aalmost like a marketing or a PR
thing, a problem that it is.
You know, that's justperpetuating that
misunderstanding and it's flashy.
It's cool to think like, oh, wedid this like revolutionary
thing and but it's maybe not.
(10:18):
And so that's something I wouldjust encourage listeners don't
get caught up in that hype.
That creativity is really, atthe end of the day, it is about
sitting down and it's doing thehard work and maybe that's go
ahead.
I apologize, well, and I wasgonna say maybe that's the the.
The challenge with it is thatit does require hard work, which
(10:40):
, well, that's hard at timesexactly, and I do think you're
talking about a process that weall need to go through.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
But it also seems to me that there has to be not just
the mythic or myth barriersthat we have to creativity, but
what are those barriers tocreativity?
What's blocking us from ourability to think we're creative
or to be creative?
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yeah, that's a good question.
So I think part of it is thatcreativity is a skill and so
it's just like you know, if youwant to be a better leader, then
you would study leadership.
You might read some books or goto some trainings, get some
feedback and you'd practicethese skills.
And creativity is the same way,but the problem is we're not
(11:35):
teaching that very often.
But the problem is we're notteaching that very often.
So what would be ideal thisdoesn't happen is if we were to
teach creativity in school.
You know, like in middle school,high school, if we start
teaching students how to be morecreative, helping them
understand, there's a processthat I teach is called creative
(11:55):
problem solving.
There's four stages to it, andif we understood that, we'd
actually be able to produce morecreative, innovative results.
But instead what happens is wego to school K-12 education and
we are taught information wherewe take multiple choice test
(12:17):
questions, and then we become anadult and I can't think of a
single time in my entire lifewhere a boss came to me and said
hey, could you please solvethis problem and please select
choice A, B or C?
Right, Like it never happens.
Instead, we are asked to dosomething, something.
(12:37):
There's usually many right waysor many good ways, and so it's
this disconnect between the waywe were taught growing up and
then now, as an adult, what,what we're expected, and I think
it creates a lot of confusionand, yeah, yeah, I could see
that and and it's explained someof that idea that you talked
(12:59):
about a four step process.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
What is that four step process?
You talked about to becomingcreative, or you know what is it
for us?
To tap into our creativity, ifyou will.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah, yeah, so it's called the creative problem
solving process and there's someother.
There's a bunch of processesout there.
At least you know half a dozenor a dozen of them.
They're all very, very similar.
This is the one that I teach myclients.
There's four stages.
The first stage is clarify,where we've got a problem and
we're trying to clarify what'sthe situation, what are we
(13:34):
trying to do?
What's, what, do we need tochange?
It's a time where you'regenerally asking a lot of
questions, doing some research,kind of figuring it out.
So there's a clarify stage.
The next stage is ideate, whereyou're generating lots of ideas
to solve that particular problemyou just figured out.
So clarify, ideate.
Now, in that ideate stage,hopefully you generate lots of
(13:57):
ideas.
I'm not talking like two, three, four ideas, but dozens, maybe
hundreds, depending on the scaleof the problem.
And some of those I would saymany of those ideas will not be
worthwhile, but maybe 10% ofthem.
And so let's say you have, uh,the you can do.
You can generate 100 ideas,which doesn't take as long as
(14:18):
you would think.
You now have 10 ideas that arereally good or really
potentially viable.
We don't know if they're goodyet, but they're like, okay,
these have some potential.
Take those 10 ideas into thenext stage, which is develop,
where you develop those ideas abit further, see, okay, do we
think this will work?
If so, what might it look like?
And then, finally, you'reimplementing.
(14:40):
And that implementation mightbe your prototyping, your
testing, you're pilotingsomething out.
I always encourage my clientswhat's the smallest scale you
can start with, instead ofbuilding out this huge thing?
What can you do in a very shorttime to just see if this might
work?
So, clarify, ideate, develop,implement.
(15:04):
And the challenge with this iswell, first let me back up and
say this is based on how we, ashumans, naturally solve problems
.
So this sort of came about inthe 1940s and the researchers
who were looking at it theydidn't like invent it, they
didn't make it up, but they justobserved people and realized,
(15:25):
oh, this is what we naturally do.
So it's innate in us to do this.
But there's a big problem, andthat is because each of us has a
preference for one or more ofthose four areas Right, and we
want to stay in that space aslong as we can because it feels
really good, and then we don'twant to move to the next stage
(15:49):
or we want to hurry up and getto that last stage.
If we love implementing andthere's a measurement that you
can measure, you test yourself.
It's called foresight.
I'm trained in this and I useit with my clients and as an
example.
I love ideating and I loveimplementing.
I'm not the best at clarifyingand developing idea of something
(16:13):
I want to do and I'm like allright, cool, let's go, let's get
started, and it's, it's fun,it's energizing for me.
But then when I go to getstarted, I'm like um wait a
(16:42):
minute Like why am I doing this?
Speaker 1 (16:43):
And it's so funny you say that because I I'm similar
in that regard like this idea.
Oh, now I've got to develop aprocess.
Not only do we stop things, butwe have the doers, we have the
(17:05):
thinkers, we have thestrategizers.
You want all of them.
But there's another block thatI think you're not talking
through.
Think you're not talkingthrough and I sense that that
might be part of this iscommunication and how we don't
necessarily talk on the samelevel.
Right, we're talking aroundeach other, over each other,
(17:28):
under each other,unintentionally just having
conversation, and we're thinkingwell.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Of course they think that because that's what I'm
thinking right in conversationand we're thinking well of
course they think that, becausethat's what I'm thinking, right,
right, I know we all, we oftenthink that everyone else thinks
the way we do.
But you know, life teaches us.
That's not, that's not exactly,and I'm thinking about the
brainstorming, right.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
So we're all throwing out and spitballing ideas and
stuff like that and somebody'sidea over here might connect
really well with somebody's ideaover here and the two of them
together could be that perfectsolution.
But how do you get people pasttheir egos, past their
challenges, to communicate andarticulate what they're trying
(18:12):
to do?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Yeah Well, first I'll say you've nailed it Like this
is exactly the challenge withteams, right?
Right, and you've also.
Not only is it the challenge,it's the strength, right that,
yeah, I love when I get to workwith clarifiers and developers,
because together we're going tobe rock stars, you know Exactly.
Yeah, with clients around.
(18:34):
This issue is one of the firstthings is we do this foresight
assessment so they can see wheretheir preferences lie, and that
create a problem solvingprocess.
And then, you know, I could putup a graph of the entire team,
or even the entire organization,depending how big we're going,
and that's really cool to seethat sometimes you'll have
(18:55):
organizations like I just workedwith the manufacturing company.
They have a lot of clarifiersand implementers, and so they
had people that were asking goodquestions and then they wanted
to get started, but they had twoideators out of 55 people and
so they weren't generating likea lot of new ideas.
But now that they know that theycan also recognize okay, let's
(19:19):
slow down, the implementersdon't want to talk about it,
they want to get started, wherethe clarifiers want to talk
about it a lot and don't beforethey get started.
And so, even if you just look atthose two groups and they can
understand each other'sperspective.
They can slow down a little bitand think, okay, let's start
with clarifying, let's give theclarifier, let's ask some
(19:40):
questions, because evenimplementers need to clarify,
yes, and then let's tap into theideators and see if they can
help generate some more ideas.
And then you go to develop andimplement and so forth and see
if you can slow that down andyou recognize where you are in
the process.
If I'm a strong implementer, Iknow, okay, we're clarifying
(20:02):
right now, my time will come.
I can be patient, I canparticipate, I can engage in
this and I'll know that once weget to my stage, I'll get to,
like, hit the ground runningright Versus.
Before you go throughunderstanding, foresight, you're
just butting heads because youdon't get the whole process.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, not only is that true and that, I think, is
also part of the challenge forlarger organizations, where the
right hand doesn't know what theleft hand is doing, but
additionally, I'm thinking aboutthis idea that there's a
thought that clarifiers are thenaysayers, if you will.
They're the people who arepicking things apart and saying,
(20:44):
well, can we do this?
If you know, if this, then thatkind of an approach, and
they're they're saying, well, wedon't have a mechanism in place
, or if we have a mechanism inplace, it's not very effective
or it won't help, or you know.
And so I think that there'salso that, like you have the go
go, go, go go people and youhave the well, wait a minute.
(21:05):
Uh, hello, what about what if?
Um, so how do you encourageboth voices to be heard and
recognized and appreciated andvalued but, at the same time,
recognize that there's going tobe frustration and potential
(21:25):
conflict there?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
yeah, this is a great question and this is one that
most teams struggle with at somepoint, if not regularly, yeah,
and so the first thing I try toexplain is this concept, uh,
between divergent thinking andconvergent thinking.
And so divergent thinking iswhat you know we think of, the
classic brainstorming, wherewe're generating ideas, we're
(21:50):
thinking broad and bold andwe're might be a little bit all
over the place.
And then there's convergentthinking, where you're
evaluating the ideas.
You can, you can almost thinkof divergent as like throwing
stuff in a bucket or funnel andthen converging is pushing it
through that funnel to what'sthe best idea for this context.
Now, what happens in our brainsis that we physically can't do
(22:16):
both those at the same time.
I know, right, a huge bummer,multitasking doesn't actually
work, right.
We all know that by now.
So, so when you're in, whenyou're trying to generate ideas,
you're trying to be creative,you want to let the team know,
okay, we're going to be in somedivergent thinking, of divergent
(22:37):
thinking mode for five minutes,10 minutes an hour, whatever it
is, and then we're going tomove into convergent thinking
and we're going to select thebest ideas.
And if teams understand thatand they know well, I'm not so
sure about that idea, but let mejust hang on because I know
I'll have that opportunity, sothat is super helpful.
(23:00):
There's actually these rulesthat we use for divergent
thinking to help us understand,like, hey, we're just going to
hang out in this space.
It's a little weird but it's OK.
And those rules are suspendjudgment you get to judge the
ideas.
Just not yet, cause judgingideas is very important because,
well, there are bad ideas inthe world, right?
(23:22):
So suspend judgment, um,combine and build on ideas.
So you know, laura, you sharean idea, I share an idea.
A third team member might likesay oh yes, let's take both
those and do this.
That's awesome.
Go a little wacky and wild, gofor wild ideas.
And then the fourth one is gofor quantity.
(23:44):
So quantity leads to quality.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
That's the concept that I see, that's the concept
that I see.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
You're not going for the first or second idea
necessarily, let's just.
Let's just make a list, youknow, pull out the flip chart,
pull out the post-it notes,whatever you need, and get as
many ideas down as you can, andyou can set a timer and
literally in five minutes youcan get quite a few ideas.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
And then from there, like, okay, we got all these
ideas up.
Let's now start evaluating andjudging them with the businesses
that you've worked with as faras their return on investment or
as far as their growth as anorganization or their expansion
(24:40):
of creativity and innovation.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, I will say, one of the challenges I have is I'm
often with businesses, kind ofon that front end, and then they
go off and implement whateverwe've come up with and I don't
get, I don't know.
But I can still share with youa little bit Some examples of
things I've worked with.
Just recently I worked with amanufacturing company and we had
(25:08):
about 55 people in the room.
We spent a day and a halftogether.
They were in about 10 differentteams and each team was looking
at a different problem withinthe organization.
We had a total of five problems, so two teams per problem, and
they walked away with someexcellent ideas.
And these were things like.
(25:29):
One of the problems was a 24hour manufacturing facility and
one of the issues they had isthat when a new shift would
start, there was about a halfhour or so of just dead time,
like nothing was happening inthe plant, and they were trying
to figure out how do we makethis a little smoother, a little
(25:49):
quicker?
I mean, obviously there's gonnabe some downtime, but does it
need to really be 30 minutes?
Can we make this 10 minutes, 15?
And, and there was, it was justyeah.
So they came up with some newideas to address that problem
and if you multiply the numbersof, let's say, they got 15
minutes more of productivity outof three different shifts.
(26:12):
So 45 minutes a day multipliedby 365.
It was a 24, seven plant.
Yeah, I don't know what thatnumber is, but it's in the
billions.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yeah, it's insane.
That's fantastic.
Yeah, not only improveproductivity and efficiency,
you've also, then saved thecompany so much more because
they're producing and notsitting around.
Yeah, so they're not spendingmoney, they're, they're
(26:44):
producing.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Yeah, so they're not just saving, they're making
money.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah, that's a great combo.
That's fantastic.
Well, so if people want to getin touch with you, how can they
contact you?
I know we could keep going, butyou know there is a limit,
unfortunately there is a limit.
So if people want to reach outto you, how can they contact?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
you.
You can certainly find me onLinkedIn at Amy Clymer, dr Amy
Clymer.
My website is Clymerconsultingcom, which is
C-L-I-M-E-R consulting.
You can also check out my brandnew book.
It just came out February 2025.
It's called Deliberate CreativeTeams how to Lead for
Innovative Results.
(27:23):
I'm really excited.
I share the process that wejust talked about, as well as
this model I created on thethree elements teams need if
they want to be creativetogether, and there's some good
stories in there as well.
So, yeah, check it out.
I'm very excited about it.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Yeah, and I know we didn't get to that and I would
love to keep talking becausethere there were.
Those three steps are reallyfantastic and yeah, so I'll just
have to have you back.
Yeah, so I'll just have to haveyou back, so maybe we can do
(28:17):
that another time.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
But I really appreciate human brain is and
how amazing and innovative weare, that AI cannot be Exactly.
Yeah, I think that creativityand innovation this is what sets
us apart as humans, and as wehave incredible capacity as
humans, I really believe we canpretty much solve all the
problems on the planet, whichmost of them we created in the
first place.
But I think we have thatcapacity if we're able to tap
(28:41):
into our collaborativecreativity.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, so great.
Well, thank you so much foryour time, amy.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you, laura, thank you,the audience, for listening to
the Mosaic Life.
Thanks so much for listening.
Have a great rest of your day.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.