August 12, 2025 • 30 mins
How often do the words we use—with ourselves and with others—create invisible barriers to our success? In business and in life, the frameworks we build with our language and the boundaries we set (or fail to set) determine our path.
In this powerful episode, I sit down with the incredible Jennifer M., a certified ontological coach with a profound mission to support the families and caregivers of those affected by addiction. Drawing from her own 17-year recovery journey, Jennifer shares game-changing insights that apply to every leader, entrepreneur, and human being.
We dive deep into:
- Ontological Coaching: What it means to align your body, emotions, and language for success.
- The Power of Language: How shifting from absolute terms like "always" and "never" can break down limiting beliefs.
- Boundaries as a Lifestyle: Why setting clear boundaries is the ultimate act of self-care and a non-negotiable for sustainable leadership.
- The Parallel Journey: A raw look at why your personal growth is inextricably linked to your professional success.
This conversation is a masterclass in communication, resilience, and the art of building a life and business with intention. Listen now to discover how to assemble these crucial pieces of your own mosaic.
#MosaicBusinessConsulting
#Leadership
#Communication
#Boundaries
#Entrepreneurship
#SelfCare
#WomenInBusiness
#BIPOCinBusiness
#AddictionRecovery
#FamilySupport
A Mosaic is a bunch of pieces, put together, to make up the whole in a beautiful way. Here at Mosaic Business Consulting we discuss the various pieces of a business throughout the course of its life, and throughout all industries, and how these pieces, when put together, can help develop a better, more efficient, and effective running of YOUR business.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Good afternoon.
Just like a mosaic is made upof a bunch of broken tile pieces
that create a beautiful whole,your business is a tapestry of
interconnected business parts.
On the Mosaic Life, we'llexplore those parts of a
business, from marketing tofinance, and mindset to
innovation.
I'm your host, lauraWagner-Konestian.
(00:30):
Together we'll discover how toarrange those pieces of your
business to create a thrivingand fulfilling and successful
business.
So welcome and thank you fortuning into the show To reach me
.
Contact Laura at.
So welcome and thank you fortuning into the show To reach me
.
Contact Laura atmosaicbusinessconsultingcom.
I'm thrilled to have JenniferMenealy here today on our show
today.
(00:50):
She is just fantastic.
She is a certified ontologicalcoach with a profound dedication
to supporting families offamilies not people who are
addicted, but the familiesaffected by addiction, and, with
over 17 years of personalrecovery from substance abuse,
(01:13):
jennifer draws from her ownexperiences to guide others on
their journey toward healing andempowerment.
For the past six years, she'sbeen instrumental and amazing in
helping families navigate thecomplexities of addiction,
focusing on the importance ofeffective communication and
establishing supportiveboundaries.
(01:34):
And Jennifer isn't just a coach, though.
She is a passionate advocatefor change, a sought-after
speaker and an overallpowerhouse in the field of
addiction recovery, so we aresuper psyched to have her here
today, and her commitment touplifting families and fostering
resilience makes her aremarkable ally for anyone
(01:55):
facing the challenges ofaddiction.
So welcome to the show,jennifer.
It is so good to have you here.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Thank you so much.
I'm really honored and glad tobe here.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
It's just great.
And I have to start out withone quick question what does
ontological mean?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
You know the thing, the thing it took me a while to
even figure it out, even as Iwas going through the training,
but I'm going to keep it reallysimple and it's basically a
coaching style that focuses alot on body, emotions and
language, and for me inparticular, I focus a lot on
emotions and language, and, yes,I include some of the body in
(02:35):
there, and when I say body, Imean, you know, the way people
talk and the way that they carrythemselves while they're
talking is really important, andso sometimes you can change a
person's emotions just bychanging the way that they carry
themselves while they'retalking is really important, and
so sometimes you can change aperson's emotions just by
changing the way that they'reholding their body.
I think that was a simple, Ithink that was simplified.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
And it's so true because I know sometimes they
tell you, you know, if you'rereally feeling down to smile and
smile at somebody and they willsmile back and that in and of
itself changes some chemicalreaction for us or something
right.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Oh, it absolutely does and you know you can really
call it out.
You know, if you've everexperienced this, if you're
talking to someone and they'retalking about a really
challenging situation they'rehaving in their life or
something that carries a lot ofemotion for them, you'll
oftentimes see people likescrunching in a little bit and
they'll like scrunch their bodydown there, put their shoulders
down, and it's they're almostlike reliving that experience in
(03:35):
that moment.
And then a lot of times, if youcan just ask people in a polite
way of course I'm a coach, soit's really awkward to do if
you're just talking to someonein general, but as a coach you
know, if I noticed thathappening I can ask them to kind
of change their body positionand then their experience at
telling the story is vastlydifferent through just changing
(03:58):
their body position.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, yeah, and because I also think it, yeah,
and because I also think itcomes back to thinking of how
are we human?
It's like that basic, thosebasic elements of being human.
(04:20):
Sure that our language eitheris matching our framework or
that our language is moreaccurate, if you will, to
describe things.
So do you want to share a bitmore about that, because I
really think that's a key factor.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Right.
Well, I love what you just said,because you use the term
framework, which is what I use alot, and it's like, I think,
words and language and the wordsthat we use within that, if we
have certain goals in our life,we have to also make sure that
our language is matching ourgoals.
So if our language isn'tmatching our goals, it leads us
(04:59):
into a different framework, andso when we're operating in a
different framework, it's hardto have a matching framework
that aligns with the goals thatwe want.
So a lot of times I will focuson language and make sure that
people are using the languagethat they're saying they want,
based in the framework that canget them from point A to point B
(05:24):
.
I was like, well, that I might.
If someone's using a particularlanguage, I may call them.
I don't want to say call themout, but I may have them go in
and actually really look at thatand gain some clarity around
that language and say let's justchange that language just a
little bit, because this is theframework that you're going to
operate on under that set ofsemantics or language or
(05:46):
language and language matters.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Language is important and so I'm sorry, I didn't mean
to interrupt.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Go ahead no, I was.
I was finished.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Please go ahead well I was just thinking of those
thoughts we have sometimes wherewe say say something like
you're, like this, or you're younever, do da-da-da.
And it's those what we'rethinking about in terms of the
all or nothing approach, versusthe truth, the true statement,
(06:17):
the real statement which allowsus to get out of some of those
limiting beliefs too, is thisidea that, is it really that way
always?
Is it really that way never?
Or is it never that way right?
It's asking ourselves to bemuch more accurate.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, absolutely Like using absolutes, especially for
ourselves, really doesn't lenda whole lot to being able to
achieve the goals that we saythat we are wanting if we're not
very clear about, you know,really diving in.
So when we say never again,like you said, is it really
never?
Or do we get to explore thatand say, can we notice a pattern
(06:59):
when it isn't versus when it isright?
And that's a totally differenttype of language and a way of
thinking.
It goes in curiosity and it'sjust paying attention more to
our language.
So that's you know.
There's so many differentstyles of coaching out there,
but one of the reasons why Ichose that specific style is
(07:22):
because it just so much morealigned with what the skills
that I feel like I needed tobring to the table, to the types
of clients that I work on,which is a lot around emotions
and language and, yes, sometimeseven potty body positions.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Well, and communication, which I thought
was absolutely yeah, and what Iloved is reading is that the
communication and the boundarysetting, because I think so many
of us struggle with thatboundary setting and yes, yeah,
so maybe you want to share alittle bit more about that.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, and boundary setting, like when I really dive
into because I spent that'smost of like the kind of work
that I do is really helpingpeople get very clear around
boundaries.
And it's more coming from alifestyle, because, especially
with the types of clients thatI'm working with, the lifestyle
(08:22):
lends to being able to actuallyachieve the goal.
It's not one-off stuff.
We have to really integratethis stuff in everything that we
do.
We say we believe, becauseboundaries at the end of the day
, is really just about beingclear about what you're okay
with, what you're not okay with,and then being able to
communicate that with others.
And that's very simple.
(08:45):
And yet when you really diveinto the clarity around what
you're okay with and what you'renot okay with, and then add the
dimension of the languagearound being able to communicate
that not only with yourself butwith others, it starts getting
very.
You can get into the weeds veryquickly with that and so.
But it really does revolve alot around language, including
(09:07):
both with ourselves, the way weuse it with ourselves and the
way that we use it with others.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Well, and I love how you're talking about it, because
I think that it's so importantthat we first attribute our
language to ourselves, so wehave clarity about ourselves.
And what are our boundaries?
What are?
Where do we begin and end right, and what framework are we
comfortable with when workingwith other people?
(09:34):
Or, you know, and I'm thinkingabout teams and businesses, and
I'm thinking about leaders andbusinesses and leaders and, in
particular, like middlemanagement, folks get inundated
from all sides, right, andthey're never right.
They're always wrong fromsomebody's perspective.
And so the question is you know, how do they frame things so
(09:59):
that they can be more accuratein describing information, etc.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Right, right, yeah and I think, yeah, and I think I
think, like you know, when wereally start, you just bring up
middle management and you knowleaders and all of those things.
When I, when I think about it,it's like, well, we have to be
really clear about our life,because I think so many of us
spend so much time actuallytrying to figure out what we're
(10:25):
okay with and not okay with that, we actually become a lot less
productive too.
Like we start bouncing all overthe place, like we, we just
start focusing on so manydifferent things and I'm I won't
say wrong things, but thingsthat aren't leading us to like
the goals right that we want toachieve, whether it's you know
in business, uh, if you want toachieve, whether it's you know
in business, if you're a middlemanager, you're you know, you
(10:48):
sit there and you getoverwhelmed with all of the
stuff that you have in front ofyou and it's really hard to even
know where to start sometimeswith that, that we spend so much
time focusing on the overwhelmthat we forget to actually just
start.
How do we break this down?
How do we look at this?
And that's part of theboundaries.
Being a lifestyle is reallylearning how to take a couple
(11:13):
deep breaths and really look andprioritize and break things
down differently and startchecking it off so that we don't
get so sucked into theoverwhelm.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah, so, so well said, Thank you for that, yeah,
and I am kind of wondering,though, you know, on your own
journey, if you will, in whatyou've tried to accomplish, what
has been your biggest lessonthat you've learned in, let's
say, your business journey, oryour personal journey, or both?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I you know, I think probably the the biggest lesson
that I got pretty early on whenI started this journey into my
business was, honestly how muchwork I still needed to do on me,
and we all need to do our workright.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
There was but, but I really had to actually be
diligent, because sometimes wecan drag our feet on doing our
own work because it's hard Um,it's, it's, it's challenging.
We don't often want to take apause and look at ourself,
because it's like we just wantto go focus.
And how does this relate tobusiness?
How does me being, you know,focusing on me and my personal
(12:28):
journey how does that relate tothe business?
Oh, it's for me, it's so.
So the first one of the firstthings that I did was I actually
had to get some coaching for meon me First.
That was like the first thing Idove into this business and I
was like, oh, maybe I'm not asready for this as I thought I
(12:51):
was.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I was like I need to do right.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Exactly, exactly.
But I figured out real quicklyI need to work on me and so I
did that before I even gotbusiness.
So the business coaching forfor me actually turned into
Jen's personal coaching, becauseI also needed business coaching
, because I didn't know what Iwas doing.
I was like I had this greatidea, right, have this thought,
(13:14):
this thing that I want to do,and then I start doing it and I
was like, oh, I have, I don't.
I, I know what I'm doing interms of the coaching, right,
but it's all of the thingsaround it that I'm unfamiliar
with, i'm'm unclear, it's, it's,you know, that's like the
business essential stuff, thestuff that you kind of got to
(13:35):
know, but you know there'sskills and stuff that I needed
to develop in that businessrealm.
So I think that was probably mybiggest lesson.
And now I've, just for me, onan ongoing thing, I always have
something professionaldevelopment going on and
(13:55):
personal development going on,because they go hand in hand.
So I've always just kind ofmade that very much.
A part of my ongoing businessis to continue moving forward in
that growth, and that's beenprobably the most helpful thing
for me to be able to sustainmyself and continue to move
(14:16):
forward Because I've had a lot Idon't want to call them
setbacks, but I've had a lot ofreally great learning
opportunities through that thatif I hadn't started changing my
perspective and my mindsets oncertain things, I think it would
have crushed me.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh, wow, wow.
Well, I'm.
I am wondering because you'retalking about business and
personal and I find that, andmaybe you found this I don't
know if you found this, but Ifound from my own experience
that it's been a parallelprocess.
At times it's like I'm buildingthis part of my business on the
(14:52):
business side, but some of itmeans I have to develop content
and write something and I'm like, oh, I can't go there, you know
personally, I'm not ready 100%parallel, which is why I focus
on them both right, which is whyit's like I always have the
(15:13):
professional with the personal,because there's really no
difference.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You know it's how you do.
Anything is how you doeverything.
There is no separation.
I know we love in this cultureto think that there's some way
we can go to work and separateourselves from life balance, our
work, life balance and all thatstuff.
But at the end of the day, it'show we do.
Anything is how we doeverything.
So how we're showing uppersonally is always going to
(15:38):
impact how we're showing upprofessionally as well.
And so there is a, there is aparallel and you can really
start telling when you've beenfocusing too much on the
professional and not enough onthe personal, because things get
a little shaky, things you know, you almost got to catch up
like you got to take a step backand catch up with your personal
self.
(15:58):
So you're absolutely correct inthe parallel.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
It's got to be both you know you got to.
There is no difference.
Yeah, yeah, my, my power justwent out.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I saw that Um.
Do you still have connection,though, somehow?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I do.
I'm sorry if this ruins yourthing.
It does not.
It does not.
We're going to make it work.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
We're going to make it work, um, but I it work.
But I am wondering, you know,when we're dealing with the
caregiver because that's whatyou're talking about the
caregiver of the person with anaddiction, or you're dealing
with a family member of the whohas the addiction, not
(16:46):
necessarily the person who'saddicted, the who has the
addiction, not necessarily theperson who's addicted.
And you know, we have thisperception of working with
people who are addicts.
What is the difference betweenworking with the addict
themselves or the person who hasthe addiction?
I should be very clear aboutthat, rather than because it is
a disease, and let's be clear,but then working with them
(17:10):
versus working with thecaregivers or family members of
those people.
What's the difference?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Well, I, you know there's well one.
There's a big difference,because you're talking about
someone you know that has that'smore in the drug mindset and
it's a little bit oftentimesit's a little bit more chaotic,
and I think it's really easy.
What I'll say is it's reallyeasy to overlook the caregivers,
just because the people withthe substance abuse issues, the
(17:43):
addiction, so to speak, canreally overshadow the caregivers
.
And so sometimes I think weforget because it's so like in
your face, so like the addictionis kind of like in your face.
It's a very dramatic kind oflook and feel towards it.
And then the caregivers and theyeven often spend so much time
(18:07):
thinking about the addict thatthey do forget about themselves.
Because it's so easy to forgetabout the caregivers in that
situation, because everyonewants to just help them, because
it's so desperate and there'sso much fear and everyone's just
worried about the worstpossible outcomes, and it can
get people like their anxietycan go up.
(18:29):
I mean it's just a little bitmore chaotic working with the
people with the substance abusethan it is the caregivers, but
for me there's so many peopleout there working with the
addicts themselves.
They have the tools, they havethe resources, rehabs, other
organizations and stuff I'm likefor me, I want to work on these
(18:53):
caregivers because I do thinkit's an underserved community.
Oh yeah, just as much supportin that.
If not more, because they're theones that are really having to
deal with their emotions in that.
So when someone's on substances, they're just not feeling the
same way, they're not reallybeing present to this world.
(19:14):
And when someone's a caregiver,they have to watch all of that,
right, they have to watch, youknow, their loved ones really
doing a whole lot of damage tothemselves and you know it's
it's really bad.
And so the families and thesecaregivers are the ones that are
actually having to sit in withwhat's happening.
(19:36):
They're the ones that areactually in reality.
So they're the ones that aredealing with a lot more emotions
, the guilt, the shame, all ofthose things that come up in
that, and they don't haveanywhere to go to kind of get
the support that they need yeah,and to to work through it as
effectively.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
It's kind of like um, when you were thinking about,
when you were talking about theperson who has the um substance
use or substance abuse that theyoften are in that chaos, right,
and they almost, because of thelifestyle, keep it going in
(20:18):
that milieu, if you will.
But the caregiver is oftenreceiving the blame of well,
they're receiving the blame fromthe person who has the, the
substance addiction, right, andthen they're receiving the blame
from society that says how canyou support this or how can you?
(20:42):
Why did you?
How did you raise this child?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
how can you let your kid do that?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Right, and let's be clear, we're talking a lot of
the time about an adult personwho has the addiction or
substance use issue and thefamily.
It's an adult.
It's like we don't have controlover their emotions, but it
also feels like, so I just feellike there's all this blame
(21:13):
going into them, right?
Oh yeah, we're talking aboutthe guilt they might feel.
Can you expand on how thatinfluences two things their
communication and their boundarysetting?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So it's been in my experience that a lot of times
when you have, you know, someonethat is using substances, they
do learn how to get underpeople's skins, to get under to
get what they want right.
So there is a quite a bit of,you know, manipulation and I
don't want to use that they wantright.
So there is quite a bit ofmanipulation and I don't wanna
use that in a negative way.
(21:53):
It's just a term, right, it's aneutral term, but there is a
lot of manipulation because theylearn what works.
That's it.
They learn how to get what itis they want and they'll do
anything, including blamingtheir parents, and oftentimes,
from my experience is that theseparents often take that blame
(22:16):
because they feel like theyshould have done something
different.
Maybe there was a situation theydidn't know how to handle it
when they were younger, andthere's all of these like mental
health things going on andthey're like I should have seen
it sooner, I should have seenyou know all this stuff.
So they absolutely do blamethemselves and so that's really
easy for you know their lovedone to then be able to use that
(22:40):
blame against them, right?
These parents carry the energyof having all this blame and
guilt and shame in what theythink that they've created which
, by the way, I will say, thisis nothing to do with you.
You did not do anything wrongfor any of those who are
listening.
But I will say that becausethey carry that energy, it's
(23:04):
really easy for other people insociety to look at them and I
even, you know, kind of pausepeople sometimes when they're
talking about oh, I would neverlet my kid do that.
And I was like oh, you thinkthese parents did Right Like.
They're like oh no, no, we'regoing to keep a really close eye
over our kid.
I was like it has nothing to dowith parenting.
Like and this is what I want toget across is like this is not
(23:25):
a parenting problem.
This is something totallydifferent.
It's going on very muchinternally with the loved one,
whether it's mental health,whether it's how they are
receiving information and howthey're interpreting it into the
world, and then they grow upwith these belief systems that,
honestly, the parents just can'tstop.
Right, like it's something'sgoing on and so.
(23:49):
But because we do carry so muchand, I think, a lot of the
blame from society, deep down, Ithink people are just happy
that it's not them.
And so then they're like ohlook, I'm such a good because
look at how much we compare ourparenting styles with each other
just culturally take drugs awayfrom it, right, right, it's
(24:10):
just something we do becausewe're like I think we're all so
insecure about I'm not a parent,by the way, but I've seen so
many parents just get soinsecure.
I think every parent I couldtalk to in this world would
admit that they were insecureabout the way that they brought
their kids up, that they somehowdid something wrong.
(24:30):
So I think we're often justlooking for ways to make
ourselves feel better, and Ithink that's one way, and that's
something that I work reallyhard on trying not only with the
individual but also culturally,to help people steer clear of
that, that kind of language andthat kind of belief as well,
(24:51):
that this is somehow a parentingissue, because it's not no, and
it comes down to so manydifferent words that come into
my head like judgment andcomparison, as you're talking
about, and and trying to keep upwith the joneses, as we say,
you know.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
But the truth is that I don't think.
I think that what you're doingin working with the family
members, it is the.
It's like the gap in theservices, the gap in the
delivery of services, that wearen't paying attention to, the
(25:28):
support mechanism that'srequisite when they leave right,
or we aren't paying attentionto how that is going to have to
continue itself.
You know, for quite some time.
It's not like they go throughrehab.
They get out of rehab, theyfeel better and it's all fine.
(25:50):
No, they may relapse, they maydo any number of things, but in
the meantime, that caregiver orthat family member continues to
have to give care to that person.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and this is one of
the things that I'm trying toreally reinforce to people is
that this is just as much boththe addict's journey and the
family journey.
Right, like this is this has tobe both, and this is why I
focus a lot on boundaries as alifestyle, because it's like,
(26:26):
listen, they could, they couldtotally go to rehab and get out,
and this is, honestly, this iswhat happened with me.
Right, I go to rehab, I get outof rehab, I stay clean.
For a couple of years my momthinks everything is cool,
everything is over, right, shedoesn't have to worry about me
anymore.
But then I relapse.
He doesn't have to worry aboutme anymore, but then I relapse,
(26:47):
right, and things get really bad.
And then I have to go back intorehab and now she doesn't know,
like it took her a lot longerthe second time around.
I only had to go to a rehabtwice, but it took her a lot
longer the second time around toactually kind of start feeling
(27:08):
like, oh, I don't have to worryabout gender anymore, right, and
then, in that concern and thatworry, how do you live like that
?
How?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
do you make?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
sure it doesn't swallow you.
How do you start building trustback?
Because building trust back canbe hard, it can be challenging.
You don't actually know, like alot of the parents I talk to,
their kid gets out of rehab andthey're like, okay, let's just
move on with your life now.
And they don't know some oflike the signs and like what
(27:35):
they're looking for in terms ofare they doing the right things,
what are the red flags?
And so that's a lot of timeslike where I come in and kind of
give a reality check of likethis is the reality and this is
how you support yourself throughthe realities of this.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, and I really appreciate you saying and
because I think so many of usthink it's either or but it's,
and so I really appreciate that.
This has just been fantastic,jen.
We could continue chatting tillwe're blue in the face, I think
, because absolutely great,great info.
(28:14):
I love it.
I love it.
If people want to reach out toyou, how can they contact you?
How can they reach you?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
So the the rep.
The website is with therecovering familyorg.
It is a nonprofit organizationso they can go check out the
website and contact me there.
They can also just shoot me anemail at info at the recovering
familyorg.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
The recovering family , so recover ing familyorg,
Correct.
I love that.
That's fantastic.
Well, I want to thank you somuch, Jennifer.
It is just a delight to haveyou on the show and I want to
thank you the audience forlistening to the Mosaic Life
with Laura W.
Be sure to tune in next weekfor a conversation about
(29:00):
leadership with Linda Ruland.
So love talking to y'all.
Thank you so much for listening.
Have a great rest of your day.
Good afternoon.
Just like a mosaic is made upof a bunch of broken tile pieces
that create a beautiful whole,your business is a tapestry of
interconnected business parts.
On the Mosaic Life, we'llexplore those parts of a
business, from marketing tofinance, and mindset to
innovation.
I'm your host, lauraWagner-Konestian.
(00:30):
Together we'll discover how toarrange those pieces of your
business to create a thrivingand fulfilling and successful
business.
So welcome and thank you fortuning into the show To reach me
.
Contact Laura at.
So welcome and thank you fortuning into the show To reach me
.
Contact Laura atmosaicbusinessconsultingcom.
I'm thrilled to have JenniferMenealy here today on our show
today.
(00:50):
She is just fantastic.
She is a certified ontologicalcoach with a profound dedication
to supporting families offamilies not people who are
addicted, but the familiesaffected by addiction, and, with
over 17 years of personalrecovery from substance abuse,
(01:13):
jennifer draws from her ownexperiences to guide others on
their journey toward healing andempowerment.
For the past six years, she'sbeen instrumental and amazing in
helping families navigate thecomplexities of addiction,
focusing on the importance ofeffective communication and
establishing supportiveboundaries.
(01:34):
And Jennifer isn't just a coach, though.
She is a passionate advocatefor change, a sought-after
speaker and an overallpowerhouse in the field of
addiction recovery, so we aresuper psyched to have her here
today, and her commitment touplifting families and fostering
resilience makes her aremarkable ally for anyone
(01:55):
facing the challenges ofaddiction.
So welcome to the show,jennifer.
It is so good to have you here.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Thank you so much.
I'm really honored and glad tobe here.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
It's just great.
And I have to start out withone quick question what does
ontological mean?
Speaker 2 (02:13):
You know the thing, the thing it took me a while to
even figure it out, even as Iwas going through the training,
but I'm going to keep it reallysimple and it's basically a
coaching style that focuses alot on body, emotions and
language, and for me inparticular, I focus a lot on
emotions and language, and, yes,I include some of the body in
(02:35):
there, and when I say body, Imean, you know, the way people
talk and the way that they carrythemselves while they're
talking is really important, andso sometimes you can change a
person's emotions just bychanging the way that they carry
themselves while they'retalking is really important, and
so sometimes you can change aperson's emotions just by
changing the way that they'reholding their body.
I think that was a simple, Ithink that was simplified.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
And it's so true because I know sometimes they
tell you, you know, if you'rereally feeling down to smile and
smile at somebody and they willsmile back and that in and of
itself changes some chemicalreaction for us or something
right.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Oh, it absolutely does and you know you can really
call it out.
You know, if you've everexperienced this, if you're
talking to someone and they'retalking about a really
challenging situation they'rehaving in their life or
something that carries a lot ofemotion for them, you'll
oftentimes see people likescrunching in a little bit and
they'll like scrunch their bodydown there, put their shoulders
down, and it's they're almostlike reliving that experience in
(03:35):
that moment.
And then a lot of times, if youcan just ask people in a polite
way of course I'm a coach, soit's really awkward to do if
you're just talking to someonein general, but as a coach you
know, if I noticed thathappening I can ask them to kind
of change their body positionand then their experience at
telling the story is vastlydifferent through just changing
(03:58):
their body position.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah, yeah, and because I also think it, yeah,
and because I also think itcomes back to thinking of how
are we human?
It's like that basic, thosebasic elements of being human.
(04:20):
Sure that our language eitheris matching our framework or
that our language is moreaccurate, if you will, to
describe things.
So do you want to share a bitmore about that, because I
really think that's a key factor.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Right.
Well, I love what you just said,because you use the term
framework, which is what I use alot, and it's like, I think,
words and language and the wordsthat we use within that, if we
have certain goals in our life,we have to also make sure that
our language is matching ourgoals.
So if our language isn'tmatching our goals, it leads us
(04:59):
into a different framework, andso when we're operating in a
different framework, it's hardto have a matching framework
that aligns with the goals thatwe want.
So a lot of times I will focuson language and make sure that
people are using the languagethat they're saying they want,
based in the framework that canget them from point A to point B
(05:24):
.
I was like, well, that I might.
If someone's using a particularlanguage, I may call them.
I don't want to say call themout, but I may have them go in
and actually really look at thatand gain some clarity around
that language and say let's justchange that language just a
little bit, because this is theframework that you're going to
operate on under that set ofsemantics or language or
(05:46):
language and language matters.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Language is important and so I'm sorry, I didn't mean
to interrupt.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Go ahead no, I was.
I was finished.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
Please go ahead well I was just thinking of those
thoughts we have sometimes wherewe say say something like
you're, like this, or you're younever, do da-da-da.
And it's those what we'rethinking about in terms of the
all or nothing approach, versusthe truth, the true statement,
(06:17):
the real statement which allowsus to get out of some of those
limiting beliefs too, is thisidea that, is it really that way
always?
Is it really that way never?
Or is it never that way right?
It's asking ourselves to bemuch more accurate.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, absolutely Like using absolutes, especially for
ourselves, really doesn't lenda whole lot to being able to
achieve the goals that we saythat we are wanting if we're not
very clear about, you know,really diving in.
So when we say never again,like you said, is it really
never?
Or do we get to explore thatand say, can we notice a pattern
(06:59):
when it isn't versus when it isright?
And that's a totally differenttype of language and a way of
thinking.
It goes in curiosity and it'sjust paying attention more to
our language.
So that's you know.
There's so many differentstyles of coaching out there,
but one of the reasons why Ichose that specific style is
(07:22):
because it just so much morealigned with what the skills
that I feel like I needed tobring to the table, to the types
of clients that I work on,which is a lot around emotions
and language and, yes, sometimeseven potty body positions.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
Well, and communication, which I thought
was absolutely yeah, and what Iloved is reading is that the
communication and the boundarysetting, because I think so many
of us struggle with thatboundary setting and yes, yeah,
so maybe you want to share alittle bit more about that.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, and boundary setting, like when I really dive
into because I spent that'smost of like the kind of work
that I do is really helpingpeople get very clear around
boundaries.
And it's more coming from alifestyle, because, especially
with the types of clients thatI'm working with, the lifestyle
(08:22):
lends to being able to actuallyachieve the goal.
It's not one-off stuff.
We have to really integratethis stuff in everything that we
do.
We say we believe, becauseboundaries at the end of the day
, is really just about beingclear about what you're okay
with, what you're not okay with,and then being able to
communicate that with others.
And that's very simple.
(08:45):
And yet when you really diveinto the clarity around what
you're okay with and what you'renot okay with, and then add the
dimension of the languagearound being able to communicate
that not only with yourself butwith others, it starts getting
very.
You can get into the weeds veryquickly with that and so.
But it really does revolve alot around language, including
(09:07):
both with ourselves, the way weuse it with ourselves and the
way that we use it with others.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Well, and I love how you're talking about it, because
I think that it's so importantthat we first attribute our
language to ourselves, so wehave clarity about ourselves.
And what are our boundaries?
What are?
Where do we begin and end right, and what framework are we
comfortable with when workingwith other people?
(09:34):
Or, you know, and I'm thinkingabout teams and businesses, and
I'm thinking about leaders andbusinesses and leaders and, in
particular, like middlemanagement, folks get inundated
from all sides, right, andthey're never right.
They're always wrong fromsomebody's perspective.
And so the question is you know, how do they frame things so
(09:59):
that they can be more accuratein describing information, etc.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Right, right, yeah and I think, yeah, and I think I
think, like you know, when wereally start, you just bring up
middle management and you knowleaders and all of those things.
When I, when I think about it,it's like, well, we have to be
really clear about our life,because I think so many of us
spend so much time actuallytrying to figure out what we're
(10:25):
okay with and not okay with that, we actually become a lot less
productive too.
Like we start bouncing all overthe place, like we, we just
start focusing on so manydifferent things and I'm I won't
say wrong things, but thingsthat aren't leading us to like
the goals right that we want toachieve, whether it's you know
in business, uh, if you want toachieve, whether it's you know
in business, if you're a middlemanager, you're you know, you
(10:48):
sit there and you getoverwhelmed with all of the
stuff that you have in front ofyou and it's really hard to even
know where to start sometimeswith that, that we spend so much
time focusing on the overwhelmthat we forget to actually just
start.
How do we break this down?
How do we look at this?
And that's part of theboundaries.
Being a lifestyle is reallylearning how to take a couple
(11:13):
deep breaths and really look andprioritize and break things
down differently and startchecking it off so that we don't
get so sucked into theoverwhelm.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
Yeah, so, so well said, Thank you for that, yeah,
and I am kind of wondering,though, you know, on your own
journey, if you will, in whatyou've tried to accomplish, what
has been your biggest lessonthat you've learned in, let's
say, your business journey, oryour personal journey, or both?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I you know, I think probably the the biggest lesson
that I got pretty early on whenI started this journey into my
business was, honestly how muchwork I still needed to do on me,
and we all need to do our workright.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
There was but, but I really had to actually be
diligent, because sometimes wecan drag our feet on doing our
own work because it's hard Um,it's, it's, it's challenging.
We don't often want to take apause and look at ourself,
because it's like we just wantto go focus.
And how does this relate tobusiness?
How does me being, you know,focusing on me and my personal
(12:28):
journey how does that relate tothe business?
Oh, it's for me, it's so.
So the first one of the firstthings that I did was I actually
had to get some coaching for meon me First.
That was like the first thing Idove into this business and I
was like, oh, maybe I'm not asready for this as I thought I
(12:51):
was.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I was like I need to do right.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Exactly, exactly.
But I figured out real quicklyI need to work on me and so I
did that before I even gotbusiness.
So the business coaching forfor me actually turned into
Jen's personal coaching, becauseI also needed business coaching
, because I didn't know what Iwas doing.
I was like I had this greatidea, right, have this thought,
(13:14):
this thing that I want to do,and then I start doing it and I
was like, oh, I have, I don't.
I, I know what I'm doing interms of the coaching, right,
but it's all of the thingsaround it that I'm unfamiliar
with, i'm'm unclear, it's, it's,you know, that's like the
business essential stuff, thestuff that you kind of got to
(13:35):
know, but you know there'sskills and stuff that I needed
to develop in that businessrealm.
So I think that was probably mybiggest lesson.
And now I've, just for me, onan ongoing thing, I always have
something professionaldevelopment going on and
(13:55):
personal development going on,because they go hand in hand.
So I've always just kind ofmade that very much.
A part of my ongoing businessis to continue moving forward in
that growth, and that's beenprobably the most helpful thing
for me to be able to sustainmyself and continue to move
(14:16):
forward Because I've had a lot Idon't want to call them
setbacks, but I've had a lot ofreally great learning
opportunities through that thatif I hadn't started changing my
perspective and my mindsets oncertain things, I think it would
have crushed me.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Oh, wow, wow.
Well, I'm.
I am wondering because you'retalking about business and
personal and I find that, andmaybe you found this I don't
know if you found this, but Ifound from my own experience
that it's been a parallelprocess.
At times it's like I'm buildingthis part of my business on the
(14:52):
business side, but some of itmeans I have to develop content
and write something and I'm like, oh, I can't go there, you know
personally, I'm not ready 100%parallel, which is why I focus
on them both right, which is whyit's like I always have the
(15:13):
professional with the personal,because there's really no
difference.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
You know it's how you do.
Anything is how you doeverything.
There is no separation.
I know we love in this cultureto think that there's some way
we can go to work and separateourselves from life balance, our
work, life balance and all thatstuff.
But at the end of the day, it'show we do.
Anything is how we doeverything.
So how we're showing uppersonally is always going to
(15:38):
impact how we're showing upprofessionally as well.
And so there is a, there is aparallel and you can really
start telling when you've beenfocusing too much on the
professional and not enough onthe personal, because things get
a little shaky, things you know, you almost got to catch up
like you got to take a step backand catch up with your personal
self.
(15:58):
So you're absolutely correct inthe parallel.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
It's got to be both you know you got to.
There is no difference.
Yeah, yeah, my, my power justwent out.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
I saw that Um.
Do you still have connection,though, somehow?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I do.
I'm sorry if this ruins yourthing.
It does not.
It does not.
We're going to make it work.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
We're going to make it work, um, but I it work.
But I am wondering, you know,when we're dealing with the
caregiver because that's whatyou're talking about the
caregiver of the person with anaddiction, or you're dealing
with a family member of the whohas the addiction, not
(16:46):
necessarily the person who'saddicted, the who has the
addiction, not necessarily theperson who's addicted.
And you know, we have thisperception of working with
people who are addicts.
What is the difference betweenworking with the addict
themselves or the person who hasthe addiction?
I should be very clear aboutthat, rather than because it is
a disease, and let's be clear,but then working with them
(17:10):
versus working with thecaregivers or family members of
those people.
What's the difference?
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Well, I, you know there's well one.
There's a big difference,because you're talking about
someone you know that has that'smore in the drug mindset and
it's a little bit oftentimesit's a little bit more chaotic,
and I think it's really easy.
What I'll say is it's reallyeasy to overlook the caregivers,
just because the people withthe substance abuse issues, the
(17:43):
addiction, so to speak, canreally overshadow the caregivers
.
And so sometimes I think weforget because it's so like in
your face, so like the addictionis kind of like in your face.
It's a very dramatic kind oflook and feel towards it.
And then the caregivers and theyeven often spend so much time
(18:07):
thinking about the addict thatthey do forget about themselves.
Because it's so easy to forgetabout the caregivers in that
situation, because everyonewants to just help them, because
it's so desperate and there'sso much fear and everyone's just
worried about the worstpossible outcomes, and it can
get people like their anxietycan go up.
(18:29):
I mean it's just a little bitmore chaotic working with the
people with the substance abusethan it is the caregivers, but
for me there's so many peopleout there working with the
addicts themselves.
They have the tools, they havethe resources, rehabs, other
organizations and stuff I'm likefor me, I want to work on these
(18:53):
caregivers because I do thinkit's an underserved community.
Oh yeah, just as much supportin that.
If not more, because they're theones that are really having to
deal with their emotions in that.
So when someone's on substances, they're just not feeling the
same way, they're not reallybeing present to this world.
(19:14):
And when someone's a caregiver,they have to watch all of that,
right, they have to watch, youknow, their loved ones really
doing a whole lot of damage tothemselves and you know it's
it's really bad.
And so the families and thesecaregivers are the ones that are
actually having to sit in withwhat's happening.
(19:36):
They're the ones that areactually in reality.
So they're the ones that aredealing with a lot more emotions
, the guilt, the shame, all ofthose things that come up in
that, and they don't haveanywhere to go to kind of get
the support that they need yeah,and to to work through it as
effectively.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
It's kind of like um, when you were thinking about,
when you were talking about theperson who has the um substance
use or substance abuse that theyoften are in that chaos, right,
and they almost, because of thelifestyle, keep it going in
(20:18):
that milieu, if you will.
But the caregiver is oftenreceiving the blame of well,
they're receiving the blame fromthe person who has the, the
substance addiction, right, andthen they're receiving the blame
from society that says how canyou support this or how can you?
(20:42):
Why did you?
How did you raise this child?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
how can you let your kid do that?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Right, and let's be clear, we're talking a lot of
the time about an adult personwho has the addiction or
substance use issue and thefamily.
It's an adult.
It's like we don't have controlover their emotions, but it
also feels like, so I just feellike there's all this blame
(21:13):
going into them, right?
Oh yeah, we're talking aboutthe guilt they might feel.
Can you expand on how thatinfluences two things their
communication and their boundarysetting?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
So it's been in my experience that a lot of times
when you have, you know, someonethat is using substances, they
do learn how to get underpeople's skins, to get under to
get what they want right.
So there is a quite a bit of,you know, manipulation and I
don't want to use that they wantright.
So there is quite a bit ofmanipulation and I don't wanna
use that in a negative way.
(21:53):
It's just a term, right, it's aneutral term, but there is a
lot of manipulation because theylearn what works.
That's it.
They learn how to get what itis they want and they'll do
anything, including blamingtheir parents, and oftentimes,
from my experience is that theseparents often take that blame
(22:16):
because they feel like theyshould have done something
different.
Maybe there was a situation theydidn't know how to handle it
when they were younger, andthere's all of these like mental
health things going on andthey're like I should have seen
it sooner, I should have seenyou know all this stuff.
So they absolutely do blamethemselves and so that's really
easy for you know their lovedone to then be able to use that
(22:40):
blame against them, right?
These parents carry the energyof having all this blame and
guilt and shame in what theythink that they've created which
, by the way, I will say, thisis nothing to do with you.
You did not do anything wrongfor any of those who are
listening.
But I will say that becausethey carry that energy, it's
(23:04):
really easy for other people insociety to look at them and I
even, you know, kind of pausepeople sometimes when they're
talking about oh, I would neverlet my kid do that.
And I was like oh, you thinkthese parents did Right Like.
They're like oh no, no, we'regoing to keep a really close eye
over our kid.
I was like it has nothing to dowith parenting.
Like and this is what I want toget across is like this is not
(23:25):
a parenting problem.
This is something totallydifferent.
It's going on very muchinternally with the loved one,
whether it's mental health,whether it's how they are
receiving information and howthey're interpreting it into the
world, and then they grow upwith these belief systems that,
honestly, the parents just can'tstop.
Right, like it's something'sgoing on and so.
(23:49):
But because we do carry so muchand, I think, a lot of the
blame from society, deep down, Ithink people are just happy
that it's not them.
And so then they're like ohlook, I'm such a good because
look at how much we compare ourparenting styles with each other
just culturally take drugs awayfrom it, right, right, it's
(24:10):
just something we do becausewe're like I think we're all so
insecure about I'm not a parent,by the way, but I've seen so
many parents just get soinsecure.
I think every parent I couldtalk to in this world would
admit that they were insecureabout the way that they brought
their kids up, that they somehowdid something wrong.
(24:30):
So I think we're often justlooking for ways to make
ourselves feel better, and Ithink that's one way, and that's
something that I work reallyhard on trying not only with the
individual but also culturally,to help people steer clear of
that, that kind of language andthat kind of belief as well,
(24:51):
that this is somehow a parentingissue, because it's not no, and
it comes down to so manydifferent words that come into
my head like judgment andcomparison, as you're talking
about, and and trying to keep upwith the joneses, as we say,
you know.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
But the truth is that I don't think.
I think that what you're doingin working with the family
members, it is the.
It's like the gap in theservices, the gap in the
delivery of services, that wearen't paying attention to, the
(25:28):
support mechanism that'srequisite when they leave right,
or we aren't paying attentionto how that is going to have to
continue itself.
You know, for quite some time.
It's not like they go throughrehab.
They get out of rehab, theyfeel better and it's all fine.
(25:50):
No, they may relapse, they maydo any number of things, but in
the meantime, that caregiver orthat family member continues to
have to give care to that person.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and this is one of
the things that I'm trying toreally reinforce to people is
that this is just as much boththe addict's journey and the
family journey.
Right, like this is this has tobe both, and this is why I
focus a lot on boundaries as alifestyle, because it's like,
(26:26):
listen, they could, they couldtotally go to rehab and get out,
and this is, honestly, this iswhat happened with me.
Right, I go to rehab, I get outof rehab, I stay clean.
For a couple of years my momthinks everything is cool,
everything is over, right, shedoesn't have to worry about me
anymore.
But then I relapse.
He doesn't have to worry aboutme anymore, but then I relapse,
(26:47):
right, and things get really bad.
And then I have to go back intorehab and now she doesn't know,
like it took her a lot longerthe second time around.
I only had to go to a rehabtwice, but it took her a lot
longer the second time around toactually kind of start feeling
(27:08):
like, oh, I don't have to worryabout gender anymore, right, and
then, in that concern and thatworry, how do you live like that
?
How?
Speaker 1 (27:14):
do you make?
Speaker 2 (27:15):
sure it doesn't swallow you.
How do you start building trustback?
Because building trust back canbe hard, it can be challenging.
You don't actually know, like alot of the parents I talk to,
their kid gets out of rehab andthey're like, okay, let's just
move on with your life now.
And they don't know some oflike the signs and like what
(27:35):
they're looking for in terms ofare they doing the right things,
what are the red flags?
And so that's a lot of timeslike where I come in and kind of
give a reality check of likethis is the reality and this is
how you support yourself throughthe realities of this.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, and I really appreciate you saying and
because I think so many of usthink it's either or but it's,
and so I really appreciate that.
This has just been fantastic,jen.
We could continue chatting tillwe're blue in the face, I think
, because absolutely great,great info.
(28:14):
I love it.
I love it.
If people want to reach out toyou, how can they contact you?
How can they reach you?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
So the the rep.
The website is with therecovering familyorg.
It is a nonprofit organizationso they can go check out the
website and contact me there.
They can also just shoot me anemail at info at the recovering
familyorg.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
The recovering family , so recover ing familyorg,
Correct.
I love that.
That's fantastic.
Well, I want to thank you somuch, Jennifer.
It is just a delight to haveyou on the show and I want to
thank you the audience forlistening to the Mosaic Life
with Laura W.
Be sure to tune in next weekfor a conversation about
(29:00):
leadership with Linda Ruland.
So love talking to y'all.
Thank you so much for listening.
Have a great rest of your day.
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Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.