December 2, 2019 • 16 mins
We're marking the halfway point of Season 1 by releasing a special episode in which Oscar is interviewed by Shannon Martin, Director of Communications at Podbean, to discuss the topic of "Community".
Since building real and virtual communities is at the heart of the Mosaic of China project, this is a conversation that we felt was worth releasing as a bonus episode. Hopefully it will not only interest you, but also encourage you to contribute your thoughts and comments on WeChat, or on whichever platform you prefer.
Chapters
00:00 - Trailer & Intro
01:13 - Main
15:04 - Outro
16:03 - Easter Egg
Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology
Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina
WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]Shannon Martin: I feel
(00:03):
like you can start a lot of conversations aboutculture, about the different topics that your
guests bring up, and then maybe someonehasn't even listened yet, but they go “Oh,
now I really want to go listen to thatepisode”. So it can kind of go both ways.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So we're now officially halfway through Season01. I hope you've enjoyed the first 15 episodes,
(00:28):
and we have another 15 great ones on the way.But to mark this milestone, I decided to include
a bonus episode this week, which is an interviewthat I recorded for PodFest China. PodFest China
is an event for podcasters and fans - organisedby Anita, Yi and Rebecca - which takes place
every autumn in Shanghai, in both Mandarinand English. I went to their first one,
and it was great. I couldn't make it to theone just now in November. But I was asked to
(00:52):
contribute something on the topic of ‘community’,which I jumped at the chance to do, seeing as it's
really at the heart of this project. In prettymuch every recording in this series, you would
have heard me talk about joining the community onWeChat. And this is what we mainly talk about in
this interview. But don't worry if you're noton WeChat, we cover many other topics as well.
[Main]OF: So today is a special episode,
(01:16):
because I'm here with Shannon Martin. But I'mnot interviewing Shannon, Shannon's going to
interview me, which is making me extremelynervous. And you're looking at me with such
soft eyes right now. But no, it's not helping.SM: I'm usually on the other side of things.
So I don't know if I feel moreor less nervous, actually.
OF (01:32):
And so just for people who don't know you, what is it that you do here in Shanghai?
SM (01:36):
Actually I work in podcasting. And I work for a company called PodBean,
we’re a podcast hosting platform, the host ofyour podcast. I'm the Communications Director,
so I'm the liaison with the podcastingcommunity, communicating to our podcasters.
OF (01:52):
And PodBean is an interesting company because a lot of its market is in the West,
but its founders were from China.SM: Yeah, exactly. They were from China,
they actually were based in the US, and we haveemployees remotely all over. Probably over time
we'll get on just about every continent, but thebiggest majorities of our customers is US-based,
because it's the biggest podcastingspace. And then we're kind of spread
(02:15):
amongst all the different continents.OF: Well, I've been asking you the
questions, I have to shut up nowand let you ask me some, don’t I.
SM (02:22):
OK, I’ll put you in the hot seat. Just to really start at the beginning,
what inspired you to start the podcast?OF: Right, well, I have an official answer and
the real answer. So let me give you the officialanswer first. I've always been a podcast fanatic.
So when I moved to China - now four years ago -I tried to find out what were the good podcasts
out there. And I found a lot. There's a lotwhich are good for news and current affairs,
(02:45):
there’s a great history podcast, but there wasn'treally anything which had the real human element.
So that was what I felt was missing, and what Ithought that I could bring. Because the actual
reason was my own personal situation. I wascoming to the end of a ten-year run in my own
headhunting company, and we had an investor fromJapan come in, and as part of that investment I
(03:08):
sold my entire share. So I knew that “OK, I had acouple of options of what to do”. And doing my own
podcasts was one of them. And it was an extensionof what I used to do as a headhunter. Because,
you know, I really enjoyed meeting people,all kinds of people every day. Like, there
were some days I'd have five meetings.And they'd be from different industries,
different backgrounds. And I wanted to findsomething which I could recreate that side of
(03:31):
what I was used to in my own business, butthen in a completely different field from
headhunting. So that's where it came from.SM: That's wonderful. Yeah, I really think
when I heard about the podcast, I felt some ofthose things, in terms of the human side. And I
guess that partially answers the question,but I'm curious what more you might think,
about what you hope to achieve with the podcast.OF: I liked the podcasts where it was just
(03:53):
two people talking, you know, when you're justlistening to two people in your ears, you really
feel like you're part of that conversation. Butwhat I didn't want to do was to put out something
which was too simple. Just two people talking,there are millions of podcasts like that out
there. So what I also liked were the podcasts thathad more of a formula. So that was what I wanted
to achieve, in terms of the actual format of thepodcast. But when it comes to “What does success
(04:17):
look like?” This, I don't know. Because at themoment, success is just getting the podcast out
there, and for hopefully, people to enjoy it.SM: That is a big achievement in itself. And I
wonder, speaking of that, did you feel communitywas an important part of what you wanted to do?
OF (04:34):
It definitely was. So one thing I wanted to try and do with the podcast was to direct
people to social media communities. I wantedthere to be a strong visual element in the
podcast. So when I asked people questions, thereare things that I could post, in terms of a photo,
or in terms of an explanatory diagram, or a graph,or just something visual. Which would then be just
(05:00):
a nudge towards engaging with the podcastsomewhere else. Because I'm a podcast fan,
as I said, and I've been listening to hundreds ofpodcasts across the years. And now and again, you
hear the host say “Oh, and if you want to join thecommunity, then please go to blah, blah, blah”.
But even though I was a fan of those podcasts,I never bothered. Because I just thought “What's
the point? I like podcasts because of the audiopiece. So I don't want to really go online and do
(05:24):
anything else”. And I think there are still manypeople who are listening to my podcast who do the
same thing. But what I wanted to do was to have alittle extra nudge, where there was a real reason
for them to do that. And then when they're there,to engage with the community, writ large. And in
fact, the name itself is about community. So thename is ‘Mosaic of China’. And the idea is that
(05:46):
you're a tile, and then you link in to anothertile. And then before long, these stories get
pieced together to form a Mosaic of China, whichin itself was a very visual idea. I'm very careful
to not say it's ‘The’ Mosaic of China, it's ‘A’Mosaic. It's a very specifically curated Mosaic,
but a Mosaic nonetheless. And then the person isalways asked to refer the next person. So for the
(06:11):
next person, they will then join the Mosaic, andI have little control over who that person is. But
that's where it almost forms a life of its own,where the Mosaic can build and build. And that's
what I hope from the community as well. So it wasreally part of the idea right from the get go.
SM (06:24):
OK, yeah. And I was gonna ask why you decided to start a WeChat group, but it sounds like it
wasn’t, like "I'm starting a podcast” andthen "Oh, I’d better start a WeChat group”,
you thought of it all as part of the idea?OF: Definitely. And that's also from my
headhunting background. So what we woulddo in my company was to create communities
of people who would then feel asense of belonging to the project.
So I was gonna ask you your goal for the WeChat group? It sounds kind of like that was
(06:49):
the goal. Has it changed at all? Or are therethings you've seen in the group that have worked
or haven't the way you had hoped they might?OF: I had the idea that it would become more
of a forum where people could engage with thecontent of the conversation. And that hasn't
happened to the extent that I would have wished,actually. Those groups, I've been quite specific
(07:10):
in making sure they're mixed. So they're not allnon-Chinese, and they're not all Chinese. They're
actually pretty weighted 50/50. And there is asense that people are a little bit concerned about
what they can or can't say, in a group that’smixed. Whereas if it was just a group for Chinese,
they would all know what everyone thinks.And if it was a group just for non Chinese,
I think they’d be more comfortable to be a littlebit more cheeky. But that's true in general on
(07:34):
social media, right?SM: Yeah.
OF (07:35):
So there's that issue. And then there's a second issue where I think, people are just busy.
And I'm the same, like, I don’t often listen toa podcast in real time. I often would save it for
when I'm doing a long trip, or when I'm commutingsomewhere, like “Oh OK, I'll catch up on X or Y
podcast”. And I think it's the same obviously,with my podcasts. But that means that when
(07:55):
someone listens to the podcast, the conversationmay have moved on to the next episode. So that's
also an issue. The third issue is that there's alot of policing you need to do on a WeChat group.
SM (08:06):
True. OF
they were fairly new, and everyone was piling intoWeChat group after WeChat group. But you know how
things are, people get completely overwhelmed withWeChat groups. And even I have a few times where
I go through and purge the groups that I'm in.And I'm very mindful of that. And so I'm policing
the group to the extent that if someone does saysomething off-topic - like they want to post an
(08:29):
advert, or they do something which in some waywastes people's time - I’m pretty ruthless in
policing that. Which I think people actually like,because everyone gets the message coming up. And
it’s like “I've got to look at this stream again?”And they start to resent being in that group. So
I really want to make sure that when there issomething on that group, it is for the purpose.
(08:50):
So maybe that strict policing also means thatpeople are a little bit hesitant to actually be
themselves, and just open up in a chatty chit-chatway. It's lively enough. But maybe me saying this
on this podcast is an idea of just nudging peopleto be a bit more brave, and to comment more on
it. Because when it has happened, it has beenreally fun. Because people come in with their
(09:12):
different ideas, their interpretations,their misinterpretations. Especially when
it's a comment about what people see in theireveryday lives, and “Why does that happen here,
and not elsewhere?” That’s when people comeout with their own ideas, some more accurate
than others. But that's a good conversation.SM: I've seen groups where it really has a life
of its own, but it didn't start that way. And itkind of gets rolling, because then people see “Oh,
(09:34):
that's what this is”. You know, they get a comfortlevel. And what was so nice about that - and what
I think you have in your community that can bereally nice - is even though people don't always
listen in real time, some of the topics andthe things… Even if I haven't listened to that
episode, you can participate in the conversation.So I feel like you can start a lot of
conversations about culture, about the differenttopics that your guests bring up. And then maybe
(09:55):
someone hasn't even listened yet, but they go “Oh,now I really want to go listen to that episode”.
So it can kind of go both ways. I think.OF: You're right. That's the kind of
virtuous circle that somethingwhich is working well can do.
What's been the biggest challenge, whether it's about this community aspect of things,
or just the podcast in general?OF: Well, the time it takes. Like,
(10:16):
it's basically a full time job. Most people wouldunderestimate the time, especially if you're
trying to do a tight edit. That's an interestingprocess, because that's something which I've never
done before. But I'm really enjoying learning howto edit down a long conversation into the best
bits. There are a lot of podcasts out there, wherethey put out an hour and a half, or two hours. And
that's something which, I'd love to have time tolisten to that, but I just don't have the time.
(10:37):
And again - it's the same kind of philosophythat I don't want people posting nonsense on
the WeChat group - I just don't want to outstay mywelcome, be it in terms of length of a podcast, or
being on a WeChat group. I want you to listen, andI don't want to intrude too much on your time, or
on your patience. The other thing that has taken alot of time is… So, when I was interviewing people
(10:59):
for Season 01, they were all saying “yes” to thispodcast, which didn't exist. And that was where
I was extremely grateful for everyone. But thewhole nature of the podcast was that they had to
then introduce one of their friends to me. And toget them to say “yes” to something which does not
exist. So sometimes, even before we recorded thefirst episode, I would have already met the person
(11:20):
they were going to say in the recording…SM: Oh, OK.
OF (11:21):
…To make sure that they were completely OK with being named on this podcast.
SM (11:24):
Oh OK, makes sense. OF
make sure that we have good chemistry, and thatit's the same level of variety in Season 02 that
it is in Season 01. So there's been a lot whichhas been a surprise that I wasn't anticipating,
but it's all basically been good.SM: Yeah, it’s interesting,
because basically the whole podcast- and what it means to you - is about
(11:46):
community. So it's quite interesting having thisconversation around that. And I was wondering,
since you were talking about the editing, andin the meeting of guests, did you have any
guests that it was really hard to edit down?That you almost wanted to do a two-parter or
something, that they was so much rich content?OF: There hasn't been one where I've thought “Oh,
you know what, I can't really cobble thistogether into an episode”. And as you say, yeah,
(12:11):
they're often hard to edit down. Like MichaelZee, for example, he went on quite a lot of
different tangents; Noah Sheldon was the same,went on a lot of different tangents. Actually,
everyone has really interesting things tosay, and I've just got to make sure that
I'm not doing them a disservice by cuttingthings out. But I'm just distilling it into
what is the most interesting out of our chat.SM: I'll tell you some feedback. This is just
(12:33):
positive reinforcing. But I think two thingswhen I think about community that I noticed
right off the bat that you did well - besidesthe stuff in the group - is the formulaic part
that you mentioned, and of course asking forwho they would recommend. I think that’s a
really great way to continue doing what yourgoal was. I remember you mentioning one time
you wanted to make sure this was from very diversebackgrounds. And has that been pretty successful
(12:55):
or pretty easy to get that accomplished?OF: That is why we have 30 episodes in
Season 01. Because I ran off at the beginning,very quickly, and interviewed lots of people,
some of whom I knew pretty well. And I took a lookat the diversity of it, and I'm like “Oh my gosh,
there's only two Chinese out of eight episodes.”It was a wake-up call that I need to make sure
that this is not too much of a sort ofexpat-focused podcast, especially because
(13:19):
I've called it ‘Mosaic of China’. So I had tothen really work out who did I know, and fan out
to make sure that I did get a nice mix. I did tryto make it as diverse as possible. And let's see
how successful it ends up being in Season 02.SM: Yeah, you have time, you don't have to get
everything covered all at once. So speakingof that, the follow-on question that kind of
(13:41):
relates is, do you have a dream guest?OF: Yeah, so I really like people who
are not used to doing interviews,and are almost like “Why, you know,
why are you interviewing me?” I reallylike people who don't realise that they
have interesting stories. Because the ones whoare almost too famous are possibly not the best
for my kind of podcast, especially if we don'tknow each other. So to answer your question,
(14:02):
I don't think there is an ideal guest, actually.I think anyone can be a guest on the show. And
I think that's the beauty of it.SM: I was wondering, just if you
have a favourite moment from doing the podcasts?OF: There have been many. Sometimes it's been in
the interview studio, where you are with someonewho maybe you've known for a few years. Like,
(14:22):
some of those people who I've interviewed havebeen friends. And when I talk to them in a way
that I normally wouldn't when you'reout for a drink. And you're one-on-one,
with the headphones on, and you say a question,and you don't know the answer, and they come out
with something you did not expect. Then thereare the ones that when they get released,
and I get genuine messages from people - peoplewho I didn't expect, actually, would listen - that
(14:45):
touches me. You don't really feel that your littleproject is going to reach people in that way. So I
think those moments are really, really special.SM: That's great. Well, I wish you lots
of continued success, and I'll be reallyinterested as part of the community to see
what's continues to happen with it.OF: Well, thanks so much Shannon.
[Outro]OF: Well,
(15:06):
you've surely heard enough of my voice forone episode, so I'll keep this very short.
If you're on WeChat, and you haven't yet joinedone of the groups, then please add me on my ID:
mosaicofchina* and I'll add you there myself.And if you are already in a group, then please
invite your friends to join the conversation. Andotherwise, there's also Instagram and Facebook,
of course, which are better for engagingwith the content on a photo-by-photo basis.
(15:28):
Before I go, another quick shout-out to aAnita, Yi, and Rebecca - the three people
behind PodFest China - you can find themon podfestchina.com, and they're also in
the WeChat groups for Mosaic of China. Soyou can add them there directly if you're
interested in the next event, which I thinkis a workshop in the spring of 2020. Thanks
very much if you're still listening to this, andwe'll be back with a regular episode next week.
(15:51):
[Easter Egg]SM: I do ‘um’ a lot.
OF (16:05):
I get rid of some of the worst, like longest, boring ones. But otherwise,
it's just natural speech.SM: Yeah, it's true, it's true,
but I still want to learn to cut down on it,after I heard myself on Saturday. I used to be
really bad with ‘like’. This time it didn't seemthat I said that a lot, I was doing ‘um’ instead.
I think ‘um’ is better. SM:Yes.
It’s just giving your brain time to answer, right? I think I say ‘kinda’. “It's
(16:27):
kinda kinda kinda.” And I can say it threetimes in one sentence. It **** kills me.
[Trailer]Shannon Martin: I feel
(00:03):
like you can start a lot of conversations aboutculture, about the different topics that your
guests bring up, and then maybe someonehasn't even listened yet, but they go “Oh,
now I really want to go listen to thatepisode”. So it can kind of go both ways.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So we're now officially halfway through Season01. I hope you've enjoyed the first 15 episodes,
(00:28):
and we have another 15 great ones on the way.But to mark this milestone, I decided to include
a bonus episode this week, which is an interviewthat I recorded for PodFest China. PodFest China
is an event for podcasters and fans - organisedby Anita, Yi and Rebecca - which takes place
every autumn in Shanghai, in both Mandarinand English. I went to their first one,
and it was great. I couldn't make it to theone just now in November. But I was asked to
(00:52):
contribute something on the topic of ‘community’,which I jumped at the chance to do, seeing as it's
really at the heart of this project. In prettymuch every recording in this series, you would
have heard me talk about joining the community onWeChat. And this is what we mainly talk about in
this interview. But don't worry if you're noton WeChat, we cover many other topics as well.
[Main]OF: So today is a special episode,
(01:16):
because I'm here with Shannon Martin. But I'mnot interviewing Shannon, Shannon's going to
interview me, which is making me extremelynervous. And you're looking at me with such
soft eyes right now. But no, it's not helping.SM: I'm usually on the other side of things.
So I don't know if I feel moreor less nervous, actually.
OF (01:32):
And so just for people who don't know you, what is it that you do here in Shanghai?
SM (01:36):
Actually I work in podcasting. And I work for a company called PodBean,
we’re a podcast hosting platform, the host ofyour podcast. I'm the Communications Director,
so I'm the liaison with the podcastingcommunity, communicating to our podcasters.
OF (01:52):
And PodBean is an interesting company because a lot of its market is in the West,
but its founders were from China.SM: Yeah, exactly. They were from China,
they actually were based in the US, and we haveemployees remotely all over. Probably over time
we'll get on just about every continent, but thebiggest majorities of our customers is US-based,
because it's the biggest podcastingspace. And then we're kind of spread
(02:15):
amongst all the different continents.OF: Well, I've been asking you the
questions, I have to shut up nowand let you ask me some, don’t I.
SM (02:22):
OK, I’ll put you in the hot seat. Just to really start at the beginning,
what inspired you to start the podcast?OF: Right, well, I have an official answer and
the real answer. So let me give you the officialanswer first. I've always been a podcast fanatic.
So when I moved to China - now four years ago -I tried to find out what were the good podcasts
out there. And I found a lot. There's a lotwhich are good for news and current affairs,
(02:45):
there’s a great history podcast, but there wasn'treally anything which had the real human element.
So that was what I felt was missing, and what Ithought that I could bring. Because the actual
reason was my own personal situation. I wascoming to the end of a ten-year run in my own
headhunting company, and we had an investor fromJapan come in, and as part of that investment I
(03:08):
sold my entire share. So I knew that “OK, I had acouple of options of what to do”. And doing my own
podcasts was one of them. And it was an extensionof what I used to do as a headhunter. Because,
you know, I really enjoyed meeting people,all kinds of people every day. Like, there
were some days I'd have five meetings.And they'd be from different industries,
different backgrounds. And I wanted to findsomething which I could recreate that side of
(03:31):
what I was used to in my own business, butthen in a completely different field from
headhunting. So that's where it came from.SM: That's wonderful. Yeah, I really think
when I heard about the podcast, I felt some ofthose things, in terms of the human side. And I
guess that partially answers the question,but I'm curious what more you might think,
about what you hope to achieve with the podcast.OF: I liked the podcasts where it was just
(03:53):
two people talking, you know, when you're justlistening to two people in your ears, you really
feel like you're part of that conversation. Butwhat I didn't want to do was to put out something
which was too simple. Just two people talking,there are millions of podcasts like that out
there. So what I also liked were the podcasts thathad more of a formula. So that was what I wanted
to achieve, in terms of the actual format of thepodcast. But when it comes to “What does success
(04:17):
look like?” This, I don't know. Because at themoment, success is just getting the podcast out
there, and for hopefully, people to enjoy it.SM: That is a big achievement in itself. And I
wonder, speaking of that, did you feel communitywas an important part of what you wanted to do?
OF (04:34):
It definitely was. So one thing I wanted to try and do with the podcast was to direct
people to social media communities. I wantedthere to be a strong visual element in the
podcast. So when I asked people questions, thereare things that I could post, in terms of a photo,
or in terms of an explanatory diagram, or a graph,or just something visual. Which would then be just
(05:00):
a nudge towards engaging with the podcastsomewhere else. Because I'm a podcast fan,
as I said, and I've been listening to hundreds ofpodcasts across the years. And now and again, you
hear the host say “Oh, and if you want to join thecommunity, then please go to blah, blah, blah”.
But even though I was a fan of those podcasts,I never bothered. Because I just thought “What's
the point? I like podcasts because of the audiopiece. So I don't want to really go online and do
(05:24):
anything else”. And I think there are still manypeople who are listening to my podcast who do the
same thing. But what I wanted to do was to have alittle extra nudge, where there was a real reason
for them to do that. And then when they're there,to engage with the community, writ large. And in
fact, the name itself is about community. So thename is ‘Mosaic of China’. And the idea is that
(05:46):
you're a tile, and then you link in to anothertile. And then before long, these stories get
pieced together to form a Mosaic of China, whichin itself was a very visual idea. I'm very careful
to not say it's ‘The’ Mosaic of China, it's ‘A’Mosaic. It's a very specifically curated Mosaic,
but a Mosaic nonetheless. And then the person isalways asked to refer the next person. So for the
(06:11):
next person, they will then join the Mosaic, andI have little control over who that person is. But
that's where it almost forms a life of its own,where the Mosaic can build and build. And that's
what I hope from the community as well. So it wasreally part of the idea right from the get go.
SM (06:24):
OK, yeah. And I was gonna ask why you decided to start a WeChat group, but it sounds like it
wasn’t, like "I'm starting a podcast” andthen "Oh, I’d better start a WeChat group”,
you thought of it all as part of the idea?OF: Definitely. And that's also from my
headhunting background. So what we woulddo in my company was to create communities
of people who would then feel asense of belonging to the project.
So I was gonna ask you your goal for the WeChat group? It sounds kind of like that was
(06:49):
the goal. Has it changed at all? Or are therethings you've seen in the group that have worked
or haven't the way you had hoped they might?OF: I had the idea that it would become more
of a forum where people could engage with thecontent of the conversation. And that hasn't
happened to the extent that I would have wished,actually. Those groups, I've been quite specific
(07:10):
in making sure they're mixed. So they're not allnon-Chinese, and they're not all Chinese. They're
actually pretty weighted 50/50. And there is asense that people are a little bit concerned about
what they can or can't say, in a group that’smixed. Whereas if it was just a group for Chinese,
they would all know what everyone thinks.And if it was a group just for non Chinese,
I think they’d be more comfortable to be a littlebit more cheeky. But that's true in general on
(07:34):
social media, right?SM: Yeah.
OF (07:35):
So there's that issue. And then there's a second issue where I think, people are just busy.
And I'm the same, like, I don’t often listen toa podcast in real time. I often would save it for
when I'm doing a long trip, or when I'm commutingsomewhere, like “Oh OK, I'll catch up on X or Y
podcast”. And I think it's the same obviously,with my podcasts. But that means that when
(07:55):
someone listens to the podcast, the conversationmay have moved on to the next episode. So that's
also an issue. The third issue is that there's alot of policing you need to do on a WeChat group.
SM (08:06):
True. OF
they were fairly new, and everyone was piling intoWeChat group after WeChat group. But you know how
things are, people get completely overwhelmed withWeChat groups. And even I have a few times where
I go through and purge the groups that I'm in.And I'm very mindful of that. And so I'm policing
the group to the extent that if someone does saysomething off-topic - like they want to post an
(08:29):
advert, or they do something which in some waywastes people's time - I’m pretty ruthless in
policing that. Which I think people actually like,because everyone gets the message coming up. And
it’s like “I've got to look at this stream again?”And they start to resent being in that group. So
I really want to make sure that when there issomething on that group, it is for the purpose.
(08:50):
So maybe that strict policing also means thatpeople are a little bit hesitant to actually be
themselves, and just open up in a chatty chit-chatway. It's lively enough. But maybe me saying this
on this podcast is an idea of just nudging peopleto be a bit more brave, and to comment more on
it. Because when it has happened, it has beenreally fun. Because people come in with their
(09:12):
different ideas, their interpretations,their misinterpretations. Especially when
it's a comment about what people see in theireveryday lives, and “Why does that happen here,
and not elsewhere?” That’s when people comeout with their own ideas, some more accurate
than others. But that's a good conversation.SM: I've seen groups where it really has a life
of its own, but it didn't start that way. And itkind of gets rolling, because then people see “Oh,
(09:34):
that's what this is”. You know, they get a comfortlevel. And what was so nice about that - and what
I think you have in your community that can bereally nice - is even though people don't always
listen in real time, some of the topics andthe things… Even if I haven't listened to that
episode, you can participate in the conversation.So I feel like you can start a lot of
conversations about culture, about the differenttopics that your guests bring up. And then maybe
(09:55):
someone hasn't even listened yet, but they go “Oh,now I really want to go listen to that episode”.
So it can kind of go both ways. I think.OF: You're right. That's the kind of
virtuous circle that somethingwhich is working well can do.
What's been the biggest challenge, whether it's about this community aspect of things,
or just the podcast in general?OF: Well, the time it takes. Like,
(10:16):
it's basically a full time job. Most people wouldunderestimate the time, especially if you're
trying to do a tight edit. That's an interestingprocess, because that's something which I've never
done before. But I'm really enjoying learning howto edit down a long conversation into the best
bits. There are a lot of podcasts out there, wherethey put out an hour and a half, or two hours. And
that's something which, I'd love to have time tolisten to that, but I just don't have the time.
(10:37):
And again - it's the same kind of philosophythat I don't want people posting nonsense on
the WeChat group - I just don't want to outstay mywelcome, be it in terms of length of a podcast, or
being on a WeChat group. I want you to listen, andI don't want to intrude too much on your time, or
on your patience. The other thing that has taken alot of time is… So, when I was interviewing people
(10:59):
for Season 01, they were all saying “yes” to thispodcast, which didn't exist. And that was where
I was extremely grateful for everyone. But thewhole nature of the podcast was that they had to
then introduce one of their friends to me. And toget them to say “yes” to something which does not
exist. So sometimes, even before we recorded thefirst episode, I would have already met the person
(11:20):
they were going to say in the recording…SM: Oh, OK.
OF (11:21):
…To make sure that they were completely OK with being named on this podcast.
SM (11:24):
Oh OK, makes sense. OF
make sure that we have good chemistry, and thatit's the same level of variety in Season 02 that
it is in Season 01. So there's been a lot whichhas been a surprise that I wasn't anticipating,
but it's all basically been good.SM: Yeah, it’s interesting,
because basically the whole podcast- and what it means to you - is about
(11:46):
community. So it's quite interesting having thisconversation around that. And I was wondering,
since you were talking about the editing, andin the meeting of guests, did you have any
guests that it was really hard to edit down?That you almost wanted to do a two-parter or
something, that they was so much rich content?OF: There hasn't been one where I've thought “Oh,
you know what, I can't really cobble thistogether into an episode”. And as you say, yeah,
(12:11):
they're often hard to edit down. Like MichaelZee, for example, he went on quite a lot of
different tangents; Noah Sheldon was the same,went on a lot of different tangents. Actually,
everyone has really interesting things tosay, and I've just got to make sure that
I'm not doing them a disservice by cuttingthings out. But I'm just distilling it into
what is the most interesting out of our chat.SM: I'll tell you some feedback. This is just
(12:33):
positive reinforcing. But I think two thingswhen I think about community that I noticed
right off the bat that you did well - besidesthe stuff in the group - is the formulaic part
that you mentioned, and of course asking forwho they would recommend. I think that’s a
really great way to continue doing what yourgoal was. I remember you mentioning one time
you wanted to make sure this was from very diversebackgrounds. And has that been pretty successful
(12:55):
or pretty easy to get that accomplished?OF: That is why we have 30 episodes in
Season 01. Because I ran off at the beginning,very quickly, and interviewed lots of people,
some of whom I knew pretty well. And I took a lookat the diversity of it, and I'm like “Oh my gosh,
there's only two Chinese out of eight episodes.”It was a wake-up call that I need to make sure
that this is not too much of a sort ofexpat-focused podcast, especially because
(13:19):
I've called it ‘Mosaic of China’. So I had tothen really work out who did I know, and fan out
to make sure that I did get a nice mix. I did tryto make it as diverse as possible. And let's see
how successful it ends up being in Season 02.SM: Yeah, you have time, you don't have to get
everything covered all at once. So speakingof that, the follow-on question that kind of
(13:41):
relates is, do you have a dream guest?OF: Yeah, so I really like people who
are not used to doing interviews,and are almost like “Why, you know,
why are you interviewing me?” I reallylike people who don't realise that they
have interesting stories. Because the ones whoare almost too famous are possibly not the best
for my kind of podcast, especially if we don'tknow each other. So to answer your question,
(14:02):
I don't think there is an ideal guest, actually.I think anyone can be a guest on the show. And
I think that's the beauty of it.SM: I was wondering, just if you
have a favourite moment from doing the podcasts?OF: There have been many. Sometimes it's been in
the interview studio, where you are with someonewho maybe you've known for a few years. Like,
(14:22):
some of those people who I've interviewed havebeen friends. And when I talk to them in a way
that I normally wouldn't when you'reout for a drink. And you're one-on-one,
with the headphones on, and you say a question,and you don't know the answer, and they come out
with something you did not expect. Then thereare the ones that when they get released,
and I get genuine messages from people - peoplewho I didn't expect, actually, would listen - that
(14:45):
touches me. You don't really feel that your littleproject is going to reach people in that way. So I
think those moments are really, really special.SM: That's great. Well, I wish you lots
of continued success, and I'll be reallyinterested as part of the community to see
what's continues to happen with it.OF: Well, thanks so much Shannon.
[Outro]OF: Well,
(15:06):
you've surely heard enough of my voice forone episode, so I'll keep this very short.
If you're on WeChat, and you haven't yet joinedone of the groups, then please add me on my ID:
mosaicofchina* and I'll add you there myself.And if you are already in a group, then please
invite your friends to join the conversation. Andotherwise, there's also Instagram and Facebook,
of course, which are better for engagingwith the content on a photo-by-photo basis.
(15:28):
Before I go, another quick shout-out to aAnita, Yi, and Rebecca - the three people
behind PodFest China - you can find themon podfestchina.com, and they're also in
the WeChat groups for Mosaic of China. Soyou can add them there directly if you're
interested in the next event, which I thinkis a workshop in the spring of 2020. Thanks
very much if you're still listening to this, andwe'll be back with a regular episode next week.
(15:51):
[Easter Egg]SM: I do ‘um’ a lot.
OF (16:05):
I get rid of some of the worst, like longest, boring ones. But otherwise,
it's just natural speech.SM: Yeah, it's true, it's true,
but I still want to learn to cut down on it,after I heard myself on Saturday. I used to be
really bad with ‘like’. This time it didn't seemthat I said that a lot, I was doing ‘um’ instead.
I think ‘um’ is better. SM:Yes.
It’s just giving your brain time to answer, right? I think I say ‘kinda’. “It's
(16:27):
kinda kinda kinda.” And I can say it threetimes in one sentence. It **** kills me.
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