April 26, 2021 • 21 mins
Sometimes you don't know quite what you're doing and why you're doing it, until you sit down one day and take the time to evaluate it. And that's the day you might realise that the meaning of your work has somehow morphed into something you hadn't planned. In order to reach this realisation, it helps to be interviewed by a professional journalist! Thank you to Rebecca Kanthor for speaking with me on this special bonus episode to mark the midway point of Season 02. We discuss the ways in which Mosaic of China has evolved since its initial conception as a community that could bridge the gap between China and the rest of the world. And we throw in some fun by including some questions from a few of the Patreon/爱发电 supporters too. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:11 - Main 19:26 - Outro Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-bonus-connectivity.
Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]RK: Asking that very specific - and also,
seemingly shallow - question.OF: ’Seemingly Shallow’ could
be the byline of the podcast.RK: I didn’t mean to do that.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:22):
So, if this is your first time listening tothe show, I should warn you from the start
that this isn’t a regular episode. NormallyI try to shut up and let the guest speak.
But today is a special bonus episode tocelebrate the halfway point of Season 02.
And following a tradition that was started lastseason, this time I’m the one being interviewed.
(00:42):
Also, the interview took place not inthe studio as usual, but at my home,
so the sound quality isn’t as good, and you’lleven hear the sounds of renovations from the
apartment below at some points during theinterview. You know, in almost every episode
of Mosaic of China, someone mentions that livinghere is always accompanied by the background music
(01:04):
of development and change, so maybe it’s onlyapt that you’ll get to hear this for yourself.
[Main]OF: So thank you,
Rebecca. Your full name is Rebecca Kanthor, right?RK: Yes
OF (01:17):
You are a pro. You are the real deal, Rebecca. RK
everybody else, trying to figure this out.OF: That's rubbish. Because I actually got
my first microphone from you. And let mejust explain, for people who don't know you,
you have done lots of work and contributions forthe likes of 99% Invisible, NPR, Public Radio…
(01:45):
I only listen to the ones that you post about. Andthey are, without exception, really, really good.
RK (01:51):
But let's turn it back on you. Because I am a huge fan since the very beginning.
OF (01:56):
Oh, gosh. Looking at how you accept praise is exactly the same as how I accept praise,
which is with incredible pain.RK: Yeah. It’s cringe.
I don't know what the answer is. But I knew that you would be the same. I knew it.
RK (02:12):
I'm not just praising you. I'm praising that energy that
you and the guests are creating together.OF: I totally agree, I love that too.
That's what keeps me coming back every week,it's the new guest, and what they can give to me,
and give to, obviously, the audiencebeyond that. And that is the magic.
I don't quite know how that happens, either.RK: Yeah, it's something about putting two people
(02:36):
in front of a microphone together, then somethingjust happens. And just grabbing it and then going
with it. You know, there's two different kindsof guests on Mosaic of China. One is someone I
know what they're going to talk about. Like,the topic is something I'm interested in.
And then one is like, I don't know who this personis, and I also don't know about their topic.
I know I'm gonna like the first type, and so Ialways love those episodes. But then the ones that
(02:59):
I don't really think is going to be something I'minterested in… But it always is interesting. And
I always like “Wow” at the end of it, I thinkthat's the exciting thing for me. It's like
“I just didn't know that topic was going to beinteresting to me”. And then all of a sudden,
it does become something that I'm interested in.OF: Honestly, that is what it's designed for.
It doesn't matter if you think thatyou are an expert in something,
(03:21):
or if you're interested in something. Everyonecan get something out of every episode.
Yeah. OF
about that magic that comes out in that interview.RK: Right. And, like, sometimes things just… You
go down an alley of a conversation, like "Oh,I did not know it was gonna go that way.”
OF (03:38):
Right, right. RK
I just really enjoy that.OF: This is the funny thing. So
I experience it as a listener myself. Becauseby the time I'm listening to it, I've done
the production side, maybe a year ago.RK: Oh.
I’ve done the interview, probably six months ago.
RK (03:58):
Wow. OF
the time that I listen to it, I'm actually puttingmyself into the shoes of a listener at that point.
So it's exactly the same.RK: Yeah, and you know, sometimes
I think we have a lot of need for instantgratification. You’re playing the long game.
OF (04:14):
Mmm. RK
the points bringing this all together are reallyjust… There are so many interesting connections.
Actually, you said the word. You've said the word I wanted to touch upon here, which is
the word ‘connections’. And that whole‘connectivity’ side is what's really coming
out of this season especially. Because this iswhen I think the project is starting to come into
(04:37):
what it should be, because of the connectivitybetween Season 01 and Season 02. And you can
sort of start to see this idea of the ‘Mosaic’.RK: You’re reminding me of several times when
I've heard you in Season 02 interviewingsomeone, and they'll give you an answer,
and then you'll say “Well, that's funny,because someone in Season 01 said this.”
(04:58):
Or maybe “This person said exactly the opposite”.I love that. It's pulling it all together.
That's what I'm trying to do, not always successfully. You'd be surprised,
there have been some connections where I did notpick it up in the actual interview. But I have
at least three different chances to be reminded.Sometimes it's in the interview, sometimes it's
in the edit, and then sometimes it's in theintro and the outro, at the time of release.
RK (05:22):
Right. OF
But even then, there are some that still slip by.RK: So I was listening to this interview you did
last season with Shannon Martin of PodBean. Andyou were talking with her a lot about ‘Community’.
Has that concept changed in any way?OF: I do think that maybe the concept of
‘Connectivity’ is a slightly more accurateone now than ‘Community’. I honestly think
(05:47):
maybe I failed in that idea of community.I don't think there is one. And in fact,
maybe the word ‘community’ is overused ingeneral, like there's always someone who is
saying “On behalf of the X and Y community…”And actually, is there a community? I mean…
Yeah, that's a very interesting concept. I think ‘Connectivity’ is a much more apt term
(06:14):
for what this podcast creates. Everyone can findan entry point to understanding somebody else's
point of view. It doesn't make us a community. Butit's such a valuable thing. First was ‘community’
now it's moved into ‘connectivity’, what's goingon behind the scenes, the production side? And
has it changed between Season 01 and Season 02?OF: Yeah, it has. I have three different hats,
(06:41):
which I understand more than perhaps whenI was doing Season 01. Like, I know when
I'm trying to do the pre-production side (06:46):
I'm gathering people; I'm meeting them for a coffee;
the kind of research side. Which thenis forgotten about, when it comes to the
interviewer side. As an interviewer, I lookat the notes - which were written, maybe,
a year before - as though it was a producer whoI'm working with, who gives it to me, and I'm
(07:08):
like “OK, I'm ready to meet this person, and dothe interview” in a way that still feels fresh.
And then when that side is done, with the timelag between the interview and then editing it,
‘Editor Oscar' has no feelings for ‘InterviewerOscar’. And ‘Editor Oscar' has to listen to all
(07:29):
the awful stutters that I make. So that isreally interesting, having different phases,
I can really see the different parts of thejob in a way that I couldn't have before. It
was all sort of entangled in my head in a big oldmess. The biggest difference actually, is in the
transcripts, believe it or not. So, this year Idecided to write transcripts for every episode.
RK (07:54):
You were going back and forth on this for a while.
OF (07:56):
I was. RK
having these conversations with you.OF: Right. And it is a lot more work.
The positive side is that, now that I'm doing twoversions of the show - I'm doing a long version,
which is just for Patreon subscribers, and then Iedit out 10 or 15 minutes for the free version -
what the transcript has helped with, is that Idon't have to listen and listen and listen. I can
(08:21):
actually look at the interview, and I can editit just by sight, which ends up saving me time.
The transcripts are also really useful in that,if I have an issue with an episode - let's say,
my host here in China has said to me on a coupleof occasions that my podcast has contravened this
(08:43):
regulation, or that regulation, and has been takendown - I can go back to them and say “Actually,
I didn't say that.”RK: Oh.
“Here is the transcript. It's at this minute, this second”. And I've been able to appeal that
and they’ve put it back on.RK: No way!
Yeah. RK
Yeah. RK
only person I've heard that's been ableto go back and prove that they didn't
(09:05):
go against some regulation or something. OK.OF: Yes, yes. I can say it, because I've got
the transcript.RK: Wow.
So that ended up being quite useful. And it was really well handled by the Chinese host.
They had an online chat function. So I couldtalk to somebody in real time. I could ask them
(09:26):
“What was the reason that was taken down?” Theysay “Wait a minute”. They'll come back to me,
and they say “It's because at this point, yousaid that”. I have the exact thing that they
are not happy with. And I can counter that.And it was all polite. And they said, “OK,
we'll lodge that. Our engineers will lookat that and come back to you in a few days”.
And lo and behold, it was put back on. And I justlike the idea of having transcripts now on paper,
(09:49):
where people who otherwise might havethought “I can't understand this podcast,
it's spoken too quickly”. Anyone in theworld whose first language isn't English…
Now there's a way that they can listento the show. And if I'm going to say
that I am an inclusively-minded person, thenactually I should have a transcript anyway…
RK (10:08):
Yeah. OF
other reason I've just said.RK: Yeah.
OF (10:12):
So I use an AI programme. So the AI programme does the first attempt.
RK (10:18):
Yes. OF
I'm very familiar with this. OF
Yes. OF
choose a Chinese AI programme, or an English AIprogramme. So I'm obviously going to choose an
English AI programme. And then I have to correctall the Chinese. And then I have to format it,
so that it's readable. I luckily have found anAI programme based in the UK, So I actually have
UK English spelling, which is good.RK: Nice.
OF (10:40):
So that is one thing I don't have to correct. But yeah, for the time it takes,
it actually has been very useful.RK: Wow. You talked about introducing
this Patreon. How else has startingthis Patreon changed the way that
you're working on, or producing the podcast?OF: So I do do slightly longer interviews.
And I've got more out of the conversation,more out of the relationship that comes out
(11:04):
of that conversation, having nowslightly taken a bit more time.
RK (11:07):
Yeah. OF
I always love hearing these things that you're learning as you go along.
OF (11:13):
Yeah. RK
process. And you don't know what's going to work,or what the benefit of some change that you make
is going to be, until… after you've made it.OF: I thought you were going to say “until
it's too late”, which has happened a few times.RK: Yeah, well, that too. So the concept of the
podcast, as you designed it - I mean, I rememberhearing you talking about this - was that “OK,
(11:36):
the person from Season 01 is going to connect mewith the person to Season 02. And then we're going
to go back to talk to the person from Season01”. But we had a really strange year. And so,
how did that affect the way you designed Season02? What happened to those points of connection?
Well, the project is only supposed to really capture you in a window of your life.
The issue was that you have to be in Chinain that window. If you're not in China,
(12:01):
and your life is not tethered to China at thatpoint, then that's when the connection is lost.
What I would say it did is, it allowed me to fillsome gaps that otherwise I wouldn't have had.
So of course, I'm grateful for that. And everynew title in Season 02 is brilliant, you know,
just the same as if they had been a referral. It'sjust the perfectionist side of me that would have
(12:24):
loved, if there is a Season 11, for me tobe able to trace that back to Season 01.
RK (12:28):
Mmm, yes. So I thought that I was going to enjoy the interview portion of the podcast the
most. And now what I'm finding is, yes, I do enjoythat. But I really enjoy the rapid 10 questions.
OF (12:42):
Do you? RK
I can have known someone for a long time or theremay be a well known-person and I know of them.
And then they answer, you know “What's your go-tokaraoke tune?”, “What's your favourite phrase in
Chinese?” And this story comes out of it.OF: Yeah.
RK (13:00):
And you wouldn't have ever gotten that answer any other way…
OF (13:04):
Yeah RK
specific - and also, seemingly shallow - question.OF: Well, ‘Seemingly Shallow’ could be the byline
of the podcast.RK: I didn’t mean to do that.
No, no! RK:
OK.OF: I have a surprise for you.
I actually asked a few Patreon supporters tonominate a few questions for today's interview.
RK (13:30):
Oh. OF
OK. OF
been asked. And I haven't properly read them.RK: OK, well, so this is for the Patreon
subscribers. OK, so Peter Arkell asks “Afterhaving been a career advisor for others,
what does your next career chapter look likeafter this major swerve into podcasting?
OF (13:49):
Oh god. I think it's going to be more common for people to have more than one career. I think
in the past, it has been this idea of “OK,I might change jobs, but I'll be in the same
career”. Increasingly, I think peopleare going to have more than one career:
two careers, three careers. I did a major swerveinto headhunting, before that I was in market
(14:13):
research. I was doing conferences, I was doingresearch reports for the Japanese government.
And then you can sort of see how then the nextstage in my career has been built off from
that. So I see it as another transformation. AndI think there'll be another one in the future too,
I guess. And maybe the same goes for you.I don't think you would have predicted that
(14:37):
this would be your career, maybe 20 years ago.RK: Hmm, no. And I also see the directions that
my life is going in as well.OF: What’s your next career?
RK (14:46):
Well, I'm doing kind of three at the same time. But I did want to say something. I love this
updating with guests from before. Because you'reright, all of our lives kind of are in flux. And
so it is really fascinating to hear, you know, aguest from Season 01, how their life has changed,
what they're thinking about these days,where their career path is taking them,
(15:10):
and how the pandemic has shaped their life. Youhear them in that one point in time and you think
"Well, that's the way they are”. When actually,you know, everyone is going through changes,
and it's really great to get an updateand sort of hear how they are doing.
OF (15:22):
Yeah. RK
you've had this idea of ‘community’. Andit's not the community of listeners, it's
the community of people that you are talking to.OF: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you’re a tile
in the Mosaic, no matter how you came there,you're going to be in that Mosaic, right?
RK (15:39):
Right. OF
So maybe the Mosaic ‘tiles’ are the community,and is the ‘grout’ that is the connectivity. Oh,
is that going too far?RK: Oh, wow.
OF (15:49):
Have I just called you ‘grout’? RK
Maybe I have. RK
Because actually no. No, that is it. Because the tiles, they wouldn't stick without the grout.
So it's the community of tiles, which are set inplace by the connectivity of… what do you call it?
RK (16:08):
Mortar. OF
RK I would prefer ‘mortar’.OF: ‘Mortar’.
So another Patreon subscriber, Dominic Leeson, asks “Do you feel you
have a particular affinity with the Chineseculture? And if so, what in particular,
and where do you think that stems from?”OF: Dominic is my oldest friend. We grew
(16:29):
up together in northwest London. He now lives inChester. And I haven't seen him since I was 11.
Wow. Look at that point of ‘Connectivity’. OF
media a few years ago. And randomly he joined thegroup. And it has been the point of connectivity
with us again. And he’s… He is the ultimateperson I want to attract. He has no connection
(16:53):
with China. No connection at all.RK: Yes.
OF (16:55):
But there's just that curiosity. And he stuck around. So thank you, Dominic.
RK (17:00):
Wow. OF
one. The answer is ‘no’. In fact, I would say Iwas scared of Chinese culture at the beginning.
And so, no, it's not a natural affinity,it’s one that I have grown to love. And I
guess that speaks to why I'm doing this, maybe. Ihaven't thought about it this way. But it's like,
I can put myself into the situation of someonewho doesn't necessarily have an affinity to China,
(17:25):
and can make that a bit more comfortable forthem to actually engage with Chinese culture.
Mmm. But I think what Dominic's question is trying to get at is actually what Vladimir
Valjarević is asking quite directly. SoVladimir asks “I'd be interested to hear
how you decided to live in China long term. Wasit spontaneous? Or gradual and well planned?
OF (17:47):
Hmm. RK
I don't know Vladimir. So, I mean, I'm glad you asked that, because at the beginning of this
project - and probably you can relate to this aswell - you’re very needy in terms of “Just give me
some support here.” And now in Season 02, a bigdifference is that I am less needy about that.
(18:10):
So I have many friends who have neverheard an episode of the podcast,
many family members, and that's fine. Ireally appreciate people like Vladimir,
who have just heard about it, they’ve said thatthey enjoy it, and they then make the conversion
to becoming a Patreon supporter. And that's great.RK: Oh, wonderful. OK, so answer his question.
(18:33):
No, it wasn't well planned. In fact, none of my career moves have been well planned.
Oh, god, this is gonna sound terrible. But Imoved to China for love. It wasn't financial,
because I got taxed a lot when I came to China.But that was the reason I came. And it's the
reason I'm still here actually. Oh dear.RK: Well, that’s why I'm here too.
(18:54):
Yeah, right. RK
because I like being here.OF: Yeah.
RK (18:59):
But it seems actually quite fitting that you came here because of another connection.
OF (19:05):
You've done it. You have managed to find the way to end this interview.
Thank you so much for coming over. I reallyappreciate you, Rebecca, thank you so much for
listening, and for being you.RK: Oh, it's really lovely to just
have a conversation with you. AndI'm a huge fan. See, I'll say it!
[Outro]OF:
(19:28):
Thank you to Peter, Dominic and Vladimir forsubmitting those questions. Sorry that I didn’t
prepare better answers, I purposefully didn’tthink about them until the interview and… well,
you heard the results. But I was inspired by myconversation with Rebecca, and this new concept
of ‘Mortar’ - this idea of listeners being theconnective cement, without which the tiles of
(19:51):
the Mosaic simply wouldn’t stick - is somethingthat I will definitely be incorporating into the
future of the show. So if you’re a subscriber onPatreon - or the equivalent in China, 爱发电 - then
you can expect to be more involved in the run-upto Season 03 of the show, which I’ll start working
on later in the year. I’ll post previews thereof who I’m about to interview, so that you can
(20:14):
submit questions to the guests directly. AndI’ll also try to do more at the time of release.
So a big thank you to Rebecca for helpingto come up with that idea during our chat.
But back to Season 02, we still have15 more episodes coming your way,
and I’m really looking forwardto sharing them with you.
But I’m actually going to take another couple ofweeks off. The weather is getting warmer in China,
(20:37):
so I’ve decided to do some travel before comingback to you with the second half of the season.
So please catch up with any of the episodes youmay have missed, and I’ll see you again in May.
[Trailer]RK: Asking that very specific - and also,
seemingly shallow - question.OF: ’Seemingly Shallow’ could
be the byline of the podcast.RK: I didn’t mean to do that.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
(00:22):
So, if this is your first time listening tothe show, I should warn you from the start
that this isn’t a regular episode. NormallyI try to shut up and let the guest speak.
But today is a special bonus episode tocelebrate the halfway point of Season 02.
And following a tradition that was started lastseason, this time I’m the one being interviewed.
(00:42):
Also, the interview took place not inthe studio as usual, but at my home,
so the sound quality isn’t as good, and you’lleven hear the sounds of renovations from the
apartment below at some points during theinterview. You know, in almost every episode
of Mosaic of China, someone mentions that livinghere is always accompanied by the background music
(01:04):
of development and change, so maybe it’s onlyapt that you’ll get to hear this for yourself.
[Main]OF: So thank you,
Rebecca. Your full name is Rebecca Kanthor, right?RK: Yes
OF (01:17):
You are a pro. You are the real deal, Rebecca. RK
everybody else, trying to figure this out.OF: That's rubbish. Because I actually got
my first microphone from you. And let mejust explain, for people who don't know you,
you have done lots of work and contributions forthe likes of 99% Invisible, NPR, Public Radio…
(01:45):
I only listen to the ones that you post about. Andthey are, without exception, really, really good.
RK (01:51):
But let's turn it back on you. Because I am a huge fan since the very beginning.
OF (01:56):
Oh, gosh. Looking at how you accept praise is exactly the same as how I accept praise,
which is with incredible pain.RK: Yeah. It’s cringe.
I don't know what the answer is. But I knew that you would be the same. I knew it.
RK (02:12):
I'm not just praising you. I'm praising that energy that
you and the guests are creating together.OF: I totally agree, I love that too.
That's what keeps me coming back every week,it's the new guest, and what they can give to me,
and give to, obviously, the audiencebeyond that. And that is the magic.
I don't quite know how that happens, either.RK: Yeah, it's something about putting two people
(02:36):
in front of a microphone together, then somethingjust happens. And just grabbing it and then going
with it. You know, there's two different kindsof guests on Mosaic of China. One is someone I
know what they're going to talk about. Like,the topic is something I'm interested in.
And then one is like, I don't know who this personis, and I also don't know about their topic.
I know I'm gonna like the first type, and so Ialways love those episodes. But then the ones that
(02:59):
I don't really think is going to be something I'minterested in… But it always is interesting. And
I always like “Wow” at the end of it, I thinkthat's the exciting thing for me. It's like
“I just didn't know that topic was going to beinteresting to me”. And then all of a sudden,
it does become something that I'm interested in.OF: Honestly, that is what it's designed for.
It doesn't matter if you think thatyou are an expert in something,
(03:21):
or if you're interested in something. Everyonecan get something out of every episode.
Yeah. OF
about that magic that comes out in that interview.RK: Right. And, like, sometimes things just… You
go down an alley of a conversation, like "Oh,I did not know it was gonna go that way.”
OF (03:38):
Right, right. RK
I just really enjoy that.OF: This is the funny thing. So
I experience it as a listener myself. Becauseby the time I'm listening to it, I've done
the production side, maybe a year ago.RK: Oh.
I’ve done the interview, probably six months ago.
RK (03:58):
Wow. OF
the time that I listen to it, I'm actually puttingmyself into the shoes of a listener at that point.
So it's exactly the same.RK: Yeah, and you know, sometimes
I think we have a lot of need for instantgratification. You’re playing the long game.
OF (04:14):
Mmm. RK
the points bringing this all together are reallyjust… There are so many interesting connections.
Actually, you said the word. You've said the word I wanted to touch upon here, which is
the word ‘connections’. And that whole‘connectivity’ side is what's really coming
out of this season especially. Because this iswhen I think the project is starting to come into
(04:37):
what it should be, because of the connectivitybetween Season 01 and Season 02. And you can
sort of start to see this idea of the ‘Mosaic’.RK: You’re reminding me of several times when
I've heard you in Season 02 interviewingsomeone, and they'll give you an answer,
and then you'll say “Well, that's funny,because someone in Season 01 said this.”
(04:58):
Or maybe “This person said exactly the opposite”.I love that. It's pulling it all together.
That's what I'm trying to do, not always successfully. You'd be surprised,
there have been some connections where I did notpick it up in the actual interview. But I have
at least three different chances to be reminded.Sometimes it's in the interview, sometimes it's
in the edit, and then sometimes it's in theintro and the outro, at the time of release.
RK (05:22):
Right. OF
But even then, there are some that still slip by.RK: So I was listening to this interview you did
last season with Shannon Martin of PodBean. Andyou were talking with her a lot about ‘Community’.
Has that concept changed in any way?OF: I do think that maybe the concept of
‘Connectivity’ is a slightly more accurateone now than ‘Community’. I honestly think
(05:47):
maybe I failed in that idea of community.I don't think there is one. And in fact,
maybe the word ‘community’ is overused ingeneral, like there's always someone who is
saying “On behalf of the X and Y community…”And actually, is there a community? I mean…
Yeah, that's a very interesting concept. I think ‘Connectivity’ is a much more apt term
(06:14):
for what this podcast creates. Everyone can findan entry point to understanding somebody else's
point of view. It doesn't make us a community. Butit's such a valuable thing. First was ‘community’
now it's moved into ‘connectivity’, what's goingon behind the scenes, the production side? And
has it changed between Season 01 and Season 02?OF: Yeah, it has. I have three different hats,
(06:41):
which I understand more than perhaps whenI was doing Season 01. Like, I know when
I'm trying to do the pre-production side (06:46):
I'm gathering people; I'm meeting them for a coffee;
the kind of research side. Which thenis forgotten about, when it comes to the
interviewer side. As an interviewer, I lookat the notes - which were written, maybe,
a year before - as though it was a producer whoI'm working with, who gives it to me, and I'm
(07:08):
like “OK, I'm ready to meet this person, and dothe interview” in a way that still feels fresh.
And then when that side is done, with the timelag between the interview and then editing it,
‘Editor Oscar' has no feelings for ‘InterviewerOscar’. And ‘Editor Oscar' has to listen to all
(07:29):
the awful stutters that I make. So that isreally interesting, having different phases,
I can really see the different parts of thejob in a way that I couldn't have before. It
was all sort of entangled in my head in a big oldmess. The biggest difference actually, is in the
transcripts, believe it or not. So, this year Idecided to write transcripts for every episode.
RK (07:54):
You were going back and forth on this for a while.
OF (07:56):
I was. RK
having these conversations with you.OF: Right. And it is a lot more work.
The positive side is that, now that I'm doing twoversions of the show - I'm doing a long version,
which is just for Patreon subscribers, and then Iedit out 10 or 15 minutes for the free version -
what the transcript has helped with, is that Idon't have to listen and listen and listen. I can
(08:21):
actually look at the interview, and I can editit just by sight, which ends up saving me time.
The transcripts are also really useful in that,if I have an issue with an episode - let's say,
my host here in China has said to me on a coupleof occasions that my podcast has contravened this
(08:43):
regulation, or that regulation, and has been takendown - I can go back to them and say “Actually,
I didn't say that.”RK: Oh.
“Here is the transcript. It's at this minute, this second”. And I've been able to appeal that
and they’ve put it back on.RK: No way!
Yeah. RK
Yeah. RK
only person I've heard that's been ableto go back and prove that they didn't
(09:05):
go against some regulation or something. OK.OF: Yes, yes. I can say it, because I've got
the transcript.RK: Wow.
So that ended up being quite useful. And it was really well handled by the Chinese host.
They had an online chat function. So I couldtalk to somebody in real time. I could ask them
(09:26):
“What was the reason that was taken down?” Theysay “Wait a minute”. They'll come back to me,
and they say “It's because at this point, yousaid that”. I have the exact thing that they
are not happy with. And I can counter that.And it was all polite. And they said, “OK,
we'll lodge that. Our engineers will lookat that and come back to you in a few days”.
And lo and behold, it was put back on. And I justlike the idea of having transcripts now on paper,
(09:49):
where people who otherwise might havethought “I can't understand this podcast,
it's spoken too quickly”. Anyone in theworld whose first language isn't English…
Now there's a way that they can listento the show. And if I'm going to say
that I am an inclusively-minded person, thenactually I should have a transcript anyway…
RK (10:08):
Yeah. OF
other reason I've just said.RK: Yeah.
OF (10:12):
So I use an AI programme. So the AI programme does the first attempt.
RK (10:18):
Yes. OF
I'm very familiar with this. OF
Yes. OF
choose a Chinese AI programme, or an English AIprogramme. So I'm obviously going to choose an
English AI programme. And then I have to correctall the Chinese. And then I have to format it,
so that it's readable. I luckily have found anAI programme based in the UK, So I actually have
UK English spelling, which is good.RK: Nice.
OF (10:40):
So that is one thing I don't have to correct. But yeah, for the time it takes,
it actually has been very useful.RK: Wow. You talked about introducing
this Patreon. How else has startingthis Patreon changed the way that
you're working on, or producing the podcast?OF: So I do do slightly longer interviews.
And I've got more out of the conversation,more out of the relationship that comes out
(11:04):
of that conversation, having nowslightly taken a bit more time.
RK (11:07):
Yeah. OF
I always love hearing these things that you're learning as you go along.
OF (11:13):
Yeah. RK
process. And you don't know what's going to work,or what the benefit of some change that you make
is going to be, until… after you've made it.OF: I thought you were going to say “until
it's too late”, which has happened a few times.RK: Yeah, well, that too. So the concept of the
podcast, as you designed it - I mean, I rememberhearing you talking about this - was that “OK,
(11:36):
the person from Season 01 is going to connect mewith the person to Season 02. And then we're going
to go back to talk to the person from Season01”. But we had a really strange year. And so,
how did that affect the way you designed Season02? What happened to those points of connection?
Well, the project is only supposed to really capture you in a window of your life.
The issue was that you have to be in Chinain that window. If you're not in China,
(12:01):
and your life is not tethered to China at thatpoint, then that's when the connection is lost.
What I would say it did is, it allowed me to fillsome gaps that otherwise I wouldn't have had.
So of course, I'm grateful for that. And everynew title in Season 02 is brilliant, you know,
just the same as if they had been a referral. It'sjust the perfectionist side of me that would have
(12:24):
loved, if there is a Season 11, for me tobe able to trace that back to Season 01.
RK (12:28):
Mmm, yes. So I thought that I was going to enjoy the interview portion of the podcast the
most. And now what I'm finding is, yes, I do enjoythat. But I really enjoy the rapid 10 questions.
OF (12:42):
Do you? RK
I can have known someone for a long time or theremay be a well known-person and I know of them.
And then they answer, you know “What's your go-tokaraoke tune?”, “What's your favourite phrase in
Chinese?” And this story comes out of it.OF: Yeah.
RK (13:00):
And you wouldn't have ever gotten that answer any other way…
OF (13:04):
Yeah RK
specific - and also, seemingly shallow - question.OF: Well, ‘Seemingly Shallow’ could be the byline
of the podcast.RK: I didn’t mean to do that.
No, no! RK:
OK.OF: I have a surprise for you.
I actually asked a few Patreon supporters tonominate a few questions for today's interview.
RK (13:30):
Oh. OF
OK. OF
been asked. And I haven't properly read them.RK: OK, well, so this is for the Patreon
subscribers. OK, so Peter Arkell asks “Afterhaving been a career advisor for others,
what does your next career chapter look likeafter this major swerve into podcasting?
OF (13:49):
Oh god. I think it's going to be more common for people to have more than one career. I think
in the past, it has been this idea of “OK,I might change jobs, but I'll be in the same
career”. Increasingly, I think peopleare going to have more than one career:
two careers, three careers. I did a major swerveinto headhunting, before that I was in market
(14:13):
research. I was doing conferences, I was doingresearch reports for the Japanese government.
And then you can sort of see how then the nextstage in my career has been built off from
that. So I see it as another transformation. AndI think there'll be another one in the future too,
I guess. And maybe the same goes for you.I don't think you would have predicted that
(14:37):
this would be your career, maybe 20 years ago.RK: Hmm, no. And I also see the directions that
my life is going in as well.OF: What’s your next career?
RK (14:46):
Well, I'm doing kind of three at the same time. But I did want to say something. I love this
updating with guests from before. Because you'reright, all of our lives kind of are in flux. And
so it is really fascinating to hear, you know, aguest from Season 01, how their life has changed,
what they're thinking about these days,where their career path is taking them,
(15:10):
and how the pandemic has shaped their life. Youhear them in that one point in time and you think
"Well, that's the way they are”. When actually,you know, everyone is going through changes,
and it's really great to get an updateand sort of hear how they are doing.
OF (15:22):
Yeah. RK
you've had this idea of ‘community’. Andit's not the community of listeners, it's
the community of people that you are talking to.OF: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you’re a tile
in the Mosaic, no matter how you came there,you're going to be in that Mosaic, right?
RK (15:39):
Right. OF
So maybe the Mosaic ‘tiles’ are the community,and is the ‘grout’ that is the connectivity. Oh,
is that going too far?RK: Oh, wow.
OF (15:49):
Have I just called you ‘grout’? RK
Maybe I have. RK
Because actually no. No, that is it. Because the tiles, they wouldn't stick without the grout.
So it's the community of tiles, which are set inplace by the connectivity of… what do you call it?
RK (16:08):
Mortar. OF
RK I would prefer ‘mortar’.OF: ‘Mortar’.
So another Patreon subscriber, Dominic Leeson, asks “Do you feel you
have a particular affinity with the Chineseculture? And if so, what in particular,
and where do you think that stems from?”OF: Dominic is my oldest friend. We grew
(16:29):
up together in northwest London. He now lives inChester. And I haven't seen him since I was 11.
Wow. Look at that point of ‘Connectivity’. OF
media a few years ago. And randomly he joined thegroup. And it has been the point of connectivity
with us again. And he’s… He is the ultimateperson I want to attract. He has no connection
(16:53):
with China. No connection at all.RK: Yes.
OF (16:55):
But there's just that curiosity. And he stuck around. So thank you, Dominic.
RK (17:00):
Wow. OF
one. The answer is ‘no’. In fact, I would say Iwas scared of Chinese culture at the beginning.
And so, no, it's not a natural affinity,it’s one that I have grown to love. And I
guess that speaks to why I'm doing this, maybe. Ihaven't thought about it this way. But it's like,
I can put myself into the situation of someonewho doesn't necessarily have an affinity to China,
(17:25):
and can make that a bit more comfortable forthem to actually engage with Chinese culture.
Mmm. But I think what Dominic's question is trying to get at is actually what Vladimir
Valjarević is asking quite directly. SoVladimir asks “I'd be interested to hear
how you decided to live in China long term. Wasit spontaneous? Or gradual and well planned?
OF (17:47):
Hmm. RK
I don't know Vladimir. So, I mean, I'm glad you asked that, because at the beginning of this
project - and probably you can relate to this aswell - you’re very needy in terms of “Just give me
some support here.” And now in Season 02, a bigdifference is that I am less needy about that.
(18:10):
So I have many friends who have neverheard an episode of the podcast,
many family members, and that's fine. Ireally appreciate people like Vladimir,
who have just heard about it, they’ve said thatthey enjoy it, and they then make the conversion
to becoming a Patreon supporter. And that's great.RK: Oh, wonderful. OK, so answer his question.
(18:33):
No, it wasn't well planned. In fact, none of my career moves have been well planned.
Oh, god, this is gonna sound terrible. But Imoved to China for love. It wasn't financial,
because I got taxed a lot when I came to China.But that was the reason I came. And it's the
reason I'm still here actually. Oh dear.RK: Well, that’s why I'm here too.
(18:54):
Yeah, right. RK
because I like being here.OF: Yeah.
RK (18:59):
But it seems actually quite fitting that you came here because of another connection.
OF (19:05):
You've done it. You have managed to find the way to end this interview.
Thank you so much for coming over. I reallyappreciate you, Rebecca, thank you so much for
listening, and for being you.RK: Oh, it's really lovely to just
have a conversation with you. AndI'm a huge fan. See, I'll say it!
[Outro]OF:
(19:28):
Thank you to Peter, Dominic and Vladimir forsubmitting those questions. Sorry that I didn’t
prepare better answers, I purposefully didn’tthink about them until the interview and… well,
you heard the results. But I was inspired by myconversation with Rebecca, and this new concept
of ‘Mortar’ - this idea of listeners being theconnective cement, without which the tiles of
(19:51):
the Mosaic simply wouldn’t stick - is somethingthat I will definitely be incorporating into the
future of the show. So if you’re a subscriber onPatreon - or the equivalent in China, 爱发电 - then
you can expect to be more involved in the run-upto Season 03 of the show, which I’ll start working
on later in the year. I’ll post previews thereof who I’m about to interview, so that you can
(20:14):
submit questions to the guests directly. AndI’ll also try to do more at the time of release.
So a big thank you to Rebecca for helpingto come up with that idea during our chat.
But back to Season 02, we still have15 more episodes coming your way,
and I’m really looking forwardto sharing them with you.
But I’m actually going to take another couple ofweeks off. The weather is getting warmer in China,
(20:37):
so I’ve decided to do some travel before comingback to you with the second half of the season.
So please catch up with any of the episodes youmay have missed, and I’ll see you again in May.
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