September 13, 2021 • 23 mins
It's time to reflect on Season 02 of Mosaic of China. So for today's special Wrap-Up episode, I invited Logan Brouse from Tacolicious to interview me, and to share his thoughts on podcasting in China, in the context of the launch of his own upcoming show: 'China on the Rocks'. As well as discussing the past legacy and future development of Mosaic of China, we also discuss the thorny issues of authenticity, profanity, and... the correct way to pronounce 'cicada'. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:40 - Main 21:20 - Outro Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-wrap-up.
Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]LB: Well, I mean, is it normal that you do
these podcasts without clothes?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Thank you to everyone who could make it tothe end of season party last week, it was
(00:22):
great to see so many of you there. I think200 people showed up in the end, some past
guests, some listeners, and everyone in ashiny happy mood to mingle and have fun. And
I’m going to say sorry to those same peopletoo. You know, I aspire to be the kind of
person who makes people say “It’s amazing,when you’re talking with him, he makes you
(00:44):
feel like there’s no-one else in the room.”Well if it’s possible to do the exact opposite
of that, I think that's what I managed toachieve. For most of this project, it’s
just me and my laptop and my headphones. Soto suddenly be around so many people was a
bit overwhelming for a delicate soul likemyself. I don’t quite know how other people
(01:05):
do it, I had to spend the whole followingday laying prone in a dark room. So yeah,
thank you and sorry, I will try to keep improving!
We held the party at Tacolicious, a Mexicanrestaurant in the 静安 [Jìng'ān] district
of Shanghai. And the reason we held it thereis because I had already recorded today’s
(01:26):
special end of season episode with Logan Brouse,one of the team behind Tacolicious and someone
who is well known in the F&B scene here inShanghai. So please enjoy, and I'll be back
at the end with my final thoughts.
[Main]OF: Maybe you'll hear the cicadas. Or do you
say ‘ci-cay-das’? What do you say?LB: We say ‘ci-cay-das.’ But I grew up
(01:47):
in New Jersey, so I have a weird accent witheverything I say.
OF (01:50):
I thought it was San Francisco. LB
where they film The Sopranos - but from NewJersey, I moved when I was 13 to New Mexico.
Twenty-one, I moved to California, to SanFrancisco. Nine years later, I moved to Shanghai.
OK. Well that's actually quite a common story with many people in Shanghai, right?
LB (02:07):
Yeah. OF
move. Who the hell knows what we're doingat this point.
I think we're all finding ourselves. Especially in China, you know?
OF (02:14):
Yeah. It's been 10 years for you, so have you found yourself?
LB (02:17):
Well I think I found who I am now. My Chinese self may be different than my American
self.OF: Totally. Well, we’ve jumped straight
into our conversation. What I want to do isquickly introduce you.
Sure. OF
you are someone who I've wanted to have someconnection with this podcast for actually
two years, since we started. You have runrestaurants and bars…
(02:40):
Yes. OF
all kinds of other projects too. So when youtold me that you had, in your mind, the idea
of your own podcast project, that was whenI thought “OK, perfect. I will bring you
along to do this special bonus episode atthe end of Season 02.”
Well I was like… I would like to say like I was a young Luke Skywalker looking
(03:00):
for my Obi Wan Kenobi. I came through thedesert of 安福路 [Ānfú Lù] to find out
more about what is this mystical force thatsurrounds us, and envelops us, and helps us
create things. And you know, that is the Mosaicof China.
OF (03:14):
Obi Wan Kenobi, thank you, I appreciate that.
LB (03:17):
Well it's the accent, it’s definitely the accent.
OF (03:19):
You can bow down to me later. What I wanted to ask you then, was about your new podcast
project. So it hasn't been released as weare recording, but I'm guessing it's going
to be coming out pretty soon.LB: Yes. so the whole idea is called China
on the Rocks.OF: OK.
LB (03:33):
We talk with F&B people about F&B things - ‘F&B’ being ‘Food & Beverage’ - especially
how it relates to China. Like, for example,one of our first episodes was about cosmopolitans.
The cocktail, the cosmopolitan.OF: Right.
And I remember, I was working in a nightclub called M1NT. And ‘Sex and the City 2’
had just come out. And it was a worldwidephenomenon.
OF (03:52):
Awful film. LB
You were? LB
Seriously? LB
But the cosmopolitan - the cocktail itself- women were so liberated by this one cocktail.
And at nightclubs, we were making cosmopolitanslike they were going out of style, because
it was just the ‘fire’ drink to make atthat time. I was talking about that in the
(04:13):
podcast, like, that's part of the historyof China F&B. These little watershed moments
change whole points of view in a culture sometimes.OF: What, just not one American movie?
LB (04:22):
Yeah. It was a whole movement, Sex and the City, you know. And I think it hit China
pretty hard, especially Shanghai. So we'dsee the nightclub, these women would be dolled
up. And they were going for their cosmos.And it was such a glamorous thing. And that
was kind of the focal point about making thepodcast. It’s what are these movements that
we saw in China that influenced us, and influencedhow we react with customers and guests, and
(04:43):
how we make a better environment for everybody.OF: Well, that's a good example. And it just
shows that there is such a lot of room inthe world of podcasts, for more in-depth content
about China. It makes me realise the prosand cons of this project. You know, in many
ways, it is too broad.LB: Well, I mean, at the same time, mine…
(05:03):
You dig yourself into a little bit of a holeevery once in a while. Because sometimes we
think something about, like, the history ofthe Ramos Gin Fizz is so crazy cool in China,
and then realise nobody knows what it is.OF: Nope.
Like, that's the beauty of it, too. Like, we could go back and look at history books
from 100 years ago, there are cocktail bookswritten about Shanghai. Shanghai was a Bacardi
town 100 years ago. And it's just one of thethings we look into it, we look at the cocktails
(05:24):
that were made, and you're like “Oh, wow,these are gross!” Nasty. We made a couple
of them. And it’s the fun thing about livingin a city with so much history. But at the
same time, you get lost in all these bubbles,where only you know what you're talking about.
So I think it's the same kind of thing, youhave your walls you hit, and we have our walls
we hit.OF: I think I still see a difference, because
(05:44):
you're talking about your depth of knowledgethat you might alienate your audience with.
I am the opposite. Because the secret is,people would think “Oh, you come across
as quite knowledgeable”. No! I'm skatingacross a very thin layer of ice. The minute
we go a little bit deeper, I'm discoveredas an ultimate fraud. But that's the difference,
I think you would have this geeky knowledge,which means you can't get caught out.
(06:07):
Well I mean, to paraphrase Socrates, he said “The man who admits he knows nothing,
knows everything”.OF: Ha!
So I think you know a lot of stuff, and it's really good to admit when you don't know
things. Because then you can learn things.OF: Totally.
So I think in that case, we're both the same.
OF (06:20):
Well, I'm a fan already. So tell me once again, what is the podcast called, and when
is it going to be released?LB: So we're calling it ‘China on the Rocks’.
It's always going to be myself and then I'mjoined by three or four other co-hosts, depending
on who's available. And then hopefully, we'llhave a big announcement, maybe we can do it
together.OF: Oh, I will definitely be a fan, so I'll
be listening. And good luck with the project.LB: Thank you.
(06:42):
One of the things that I'm struggling with, I must say, is the authenticity of the
voice that I am projecting on Mosaic of China.Because authentically, I am a very snarky
person. Like, if we're talking about the UK,and we were in the UK, I would be incredibly
critical about all kinds of things.LB: Yeah.
Not because, necessarily, I'm being negative - I think the difference between being critical
(07:05):
and negative can be a thin membrane - butthat's just who I am. And one issue that I
found is that, I'm not being entirely myself,in the fact that I can't be that natural,
snarky **** that I actually am in real life.LB: Yes.
How are you approaching this with your podcast? Do you think that you're going to
have to bash against that wall, or is it notgoing to be an issue for you?
LB (07:27):
No, it's definitely an issue already. Like, the edits themselves have been kind
of interesting. There was a really popularsong that came out a few months ago about
mojitos by Jay Chou, the very famous singerJay Chou.
OF (07:40):
This was the hip-hop one, was it? LB
about mojitos, and the influences, and howthey are in China. And it's kind of like a
staple drink at every place you go to. Andit kind of went on to the singer and his origin.
And then we realised - as I'm even sayingit now - there’s tangents you could go on,
and tangents that you don't need to go on.OF: Yeah. I mean, absolutely you're right.
(08:02):
I agree. Maybe this is just my failing asa snarky Brit. For a positive, optimistic
American, maybe it's natural for you to notbe so snarky.
LB (08:11):
No I think, Logan 11 years ago, there wasn't WeChat, there wasn't Alipay. Like,
I've missed out on most of Western socialmedia. You had a ‘best of’ episode - or
the clips - and it was about your Chinesephrases. And one was, er…
OF (08:25):
Oh, 外网 [wàiwǎng]. LB
I just learned to live without that. It doesshape how I talk with people in the States.
But that's, you know… Any place you livein, it's gonna affect how you are.
Well… LB
I was tap dancing around that.OF: I saw it, I heard it, I marvelled in it.
No it's true. But just to crash through yourdance - especially when it comes to China
(08:46):
versus the States - if you are at all positiveabout China, you are branded as this weirdly
brainwashed China freak.LB: Yeah.
And then, if you do the other way around, well, you just ‘don't like China’. So
this tap dance is constant. I mean, this isexactly what we are living in.
LB (09:02):
Yeah. So now, while we're talking about censorship and everything, I noticed that
you were swearing earlier. What's going onwith that? Because I know this is rated ‘Clean’
on Apple Podcasts.OF: Actually, that is a good observation.
I do bleep out the swears. And I try not toswear that much, because it's a family show.
And I want this to be accepted by as manypeople as possible. So just in case anyone
(09:24):
is sensitive to swears, that’s probablywhy I don't do it. Like we're talking about
with authenticity, I as a person use swearwords like punctuation. So again, that's one
of the things that I'm not necessarily beingmy true self in. But - let me be honest with
you - I think it's funnier when you beep theswear.
Yeah. OF
hairy **** and I’ll **** you up the **** and************”, that's gonna come across
(09:49):
as even funnier than what I actually saidin real life.
Well, the funniest part is, he's gesticulating with his hands wildly.
OF (09:55):
Yeah, I'm surprised I didn't knock you in the head with my windmill.
LB (09:59):
Well, I think you got out Cocosanti’s China ‘toy’.
OF (10:05):
Oh! But that was heavily pixelated. LB
Yeah, I mean, exactly. It's the same thing. It's actually quite funny to see the pixelated
version of what that photo actually was. Inthat example, the true thing was pretty funny
too.LB: I mean, Cocosanti was doing our trivia
night at Tacolicious during that. So I waslike “Oh my god, this is so funny that you’re
here.”OF: I love Cocosanti.
LB (10:25):
Cocosanti’s awesome. OF
and I feel bad about that.LB: I do want to go back to the thing about
cursing, really quickly. And the reason beingis, I curse like a normal person, not less,
not more. But I used to be the cocktail columnistfor That’s Shanghai for a couple years.
OF (10:42):
For what Shanghai? LB
Got it. LB
into my columns. And I remember reading that,and I was like “I didn't write this. I didn’t…
Whoa, whoa, whoa.” And this is in the printmagazines. And I was like “Oh wow, guys.”
They were like "Logan, we want you to be alittle saucy”. So I put a couple of curses
in. But, like, it would be almost like anN.W.A. album. Like, it was just like ‘F’
(11:03):
‘F’ ‘F’, ‘S’ ‘S’ ’S’.I was like “Oh my goodness, guys. I don't
want to be that guy”. Then I started writingmore, because that's what they wanted me to
do. And all of a sudden they were like “Ohyeah, you can't curse any more, because this
goes to schools now”.OF: Oh god, “What do you want from me, man?”
That's so funny. Well, I mean, as much asyour reputation is to be this late-night party-boy,
you’re actually preppy looking, right?LB: Well, that's how you get away with everything.
(11:25):
OK. Man, this is it. I haven't learned anything.
LB (11:29):
Oh, this is what I learned, honestly, working at M1NT. You had to wear suit every
night, you had to be well dressed. And thenyou could just raise hell. You know, in a
suit people would be like “Oh, at leasthe has some cash behind him,” even if you
don't have anything. OK, just to change thesubject, I've got some questions I think maybe
people want to know.OF: OK.
So the first thing I wanted to know is, did you drink the beer from Vedett with your
(11:50):
face on it?OF: Do you know what, I had a sip, and then
I gave the other ones away. However, I didpost a photo of when I went to Duvel, the
headquarter.LB: Yeah.
OF (12:00):
And there, I did have two beers, which I did actually like better. There's something
about the white beer of the Vedett, I stillcan't do it.
LB (12:08):
Do you know what, I’m not a beer person. I’m famously not a beer person.
OF (12:11):
Oh, dude! High five! LB
companies know I'm not gonna even taste theproducts when they give them to me. It's not
my taste.OF: OK, I feel so vindicated now.
LB (12:19):
Yeah. No, you're good to go. OK, we kind of talked about this a little bit with Cocosanti.
But what's your favourite podcast-recordingmemory that you've had from all the interviews
you've done?OF: Um, that's funny, I was asked the same
question at the end of last season and I fudgedthe answer.
No, that's why I'm asking it. OF
I feel like it should be a seasonal recap question for you.
OF (12:40):
Yeah. Actually, the one that sticks in my mind the most now is probably the one with
‘Noxy,’ Noxolo.LB: OK.
Because… And maybe this is interesting, because you're American. The thing that it
really illuminated for me personally - itwas deeply personal - was the idea of, if
you don't have diverse friends, how do youmake diverse friends? Like, what do you, do
(13:02):
you have a sign round your neck saying ‘Iwant black friends’? And when I think about
what's happened in America in the last yearthat this series has been coming out, it's
been tumultuous for a number of reasons, ofcourse. But the whole conversation that we're
now having about race in America, the systemhas been so deeply segregated, that of course
(13:22):
you're not going to have as many friends fromthe other side of the divide, because of that
segregation that has somehow been built up.That reckoning in the States really weighs
on my mind, especially when we're here inChina, where actually there is no such reckoning…
LB (13:36):
Yeah. OF
race. So that interview with Noxy, it justseems to come up in my mind so much, because
of these deeper issues that I've personallybeen thinking about. I wouldn't want to put
it above any other interviews, it’s justthe one that seems to resonate in my mind
all the time.LB: Oh that’s great. I mean, hopefully every
(13:58):
season, we'll get a great answer. Because,I mean, you didn't fudge this one up at all.
OK, so I think for everybody that's interestedin doing podcasts - or you know, as a guy,
after you turn 35, you definitely want tohave a podcast, it's kind of in our DNA - if
you don't mind talking about it, how do youdo your recording stuff?
OF (14:15):
Good question. The equipment is such a specialised area, which gets very boring and
very geeky, very quickly. But basically, allyou need is, you can use your laptop. What
we're doing now is, we're plugged into GarageBand,which is the free application you get with
your Mac. I've put two microphones in, sonot one. But I could have just had one, and
(14:35):
we’d both be leaning in, very intimately.You have to really work out your sound quality.
So this is not ideal as a studio, because- you’ve probably heard - there are outdoor
noises that will be picked up. Plus, as muchas you try to muffle the sound, it is very
difficult to get rid of the echo. And aftera while, too much echo is hard on the listener.
(14:58):
So that is part of the equipment equation.So you've got your microphones. You've got
the mixer, which is basically the computer,GarageBand. Headphones, you don't necessarily
need. But if you want to get people to reallyfocus in on the interview, then headphones
are a good idea. And then it will also comedown to how you edit. And I use a bizarre
(15:20):
editing programme because I was taught howto edit podcasts by my previous editor who
was a friend of mine. And I really wantedto work with him, so I worked with him in
the first season. He then taught me how toedit. But actually he's not a professional
podcast editor, he actually is more a videoeditor. So I'm using a video editing programme
to edit down my podcast.LB: Oh, interesting.
(15:41):
It's the most bizarre thing. But anyway, you are starting your podcast. So what have
I missed out that you're using?LB: Whiskey.
Ha. LB
it’s a big glass of whiskey, then you drinktill the pain goes away.
Ah, If you're anything like me, listening to the sound of your own voice is excruciating.
LB (15:59):
Yes. OF
do differently? LB (16:06):
What I…? It's kind of… It's a tough one.
OF (16:09):
And look into my eyes. LB
think what I like, and what I don't like.And the ‘like’ column is a lot longer
than the ‘don't like’ column. Some ofthe stuff, I think, you just have to cut out,
that you find you have to cut out. WhereasI was hearing you talk about it before, like
some of the cuts you've done were some veryfunny stories that you just couldn't tell.
And I think sometimes that kind of stuff,people want to hear it. Even with bleeps at
(16:31):
all. Warts and all, we want to know what thingsare. But I think that would be the only creative,
constructive criticism I could really bringto the table.
I mean, thank you. I do want to keep improving. LB
these podcasts without clothes?OF: Beautiful.
LB (16:46):
Well, from a person who has opened a number of bars and restaurants in Shanghai, we design
something; we go to the construction; we seeit built; it's designed to spec; we have the
ideas all done; but it takes us about a yearor two to really understand how the restaurant
moves. Where do the people sit? Are they sittingin the places that we thought they'd sit in?
Are they sitting someplace else? Is the beermachine in the right area? Or is it someplace
(17:09):
we could have moved it, and we didn't thinkabout it? And sometimes it just takes a good
year or two - after you have your groove,and everything's done, and the dust is settled,
and the construction workers have left - andyou're like “OK, this wasn't landing where
I thought it would land. Why not? How do Iimprove that?” So sometimes it's good to
have your format done, have a couple yearsin, and go “OK, we ask 10 questions. What's
great about 10 when we could do 8 questions?”You know “Is there a filler question we
(17:31):
could be skipping? Or maybe something we couldbe changing?” Sharpening the platform a
little bit farther.OF: I am actually going to drop one.
Oh, wow. Big news here, guys. OF
to be the last question, which is ‘What'syour favourite China-related news source?'
The first reason is, it's the last question.And it's kind of a downer, like the other
(17:53):
ones tend to bring out interesting stories.And this one is very factual. I like it, but
it was a mistake to put that at the end, andthen have that being the finale. But secondly,
- and maybe you've noticed this - everyoneanswers in a very similar way, which is basically
"I get my news on WeChat”. And I have toadmit, that is how I would answer it. And
(18:13):
each time someone says it, I go “Ooh!”LB: Yeah.
OF (18:15):
That's my fault. It's the way I've worded the question. So for next season, I'm not
deleting it. But I am going to broaden thequestion so that you still could answer it
as a new source. But the question is goingto be now “What or who is the source of
your inspiration in China?”LB: That’s a good one, yeah.
Right? So of course, you can be inspired to think about something which you read in
(18:37):
the paper. So you could still say “Yeah,I always get my inspiration from reading this,
reading that.” But it allows now peopleto also say “No, my greatest inspiration
is Logan Brouse,” you know.LB: Makes sense. Checks out.
Yeah. The smell is a bit disconcerting. But otherwise, inspirational guy.
LB (18:52):
Well you said it was an ‘au naturel’ podcast, so… What I think is fun is, I like
how you have people recommend who’s nexton the show. And I think an interesting point
may be - and this is just me speaking, youknow, openly - is they could recommend with
a question too. Maybe it's something you haven'tthought of. Obviously, you would have total
control over what gets asked. But it couldbe like an interesting question that somebody
(19:12):
has a different point of view. And you couldbe like “Oh, what a cool thing this is.
I didn't write this, but I love this idea”.OF: That's an excellent idea. And what I want
to do in the next season is to involve, atleast the people who listen to the premium
version of the show, to come up with questionsfor the guests as well. But to build it into
the referral, that's a smart idea.LB: Hey, I'm just writing Season 03 for you,
(19:33):
that’s all.OF: It's true, I have to pay you a consulting
fee now. This has definitely been worthwhile.LB: I mean, one of the other things I was
gonna ask you…OF: Oh.
…Is out of the Season 01 Compilations, which one was a sleeper that surprised you
the most, with the interactions that cameout of it?
OF (19:46):
That's an unbelievable question, because that is the third and final thing I wanted
to say about what's happening next.LB: I’m crushing this podcast.
Because when I did those compilations, it was actually just to buy myself some time,
because I didn't want to start the secondseason of the podcast until people had returned
to China. So I was like “What can I do?”And that's when I came up with that idea.
(20:07):
But I am going to do that again, for Season02. Just to answer your question though, funnily
enough, the last one I did - which was a Compilationof Chinese phrases - that got the most traction.
I think that, out of all compilations, wasthe most popular.
LB (20:24):
Honestly, that's my favourite one. OF
Really. I take Chinese classes, and I actually asked my teacher “Can we go over
some more phrases?” And I used some of theones from the phrases that you gave. Like,
I think the one gentleman said something about‘One mountain can't have two tigers’.
OF (20:39):
Yes. LB
love this phrase”. And a lot of the phraseswere really, really cool.
Yeah. OK, you're making me think that that's something which I should double down
on, then. But that's interesting feedback.And I really appreciate hearing that, Logan.
You know, you're someone who I've known, inthe ether, in life in Shanghai. We met very
(20:59):
briefly and peripherally in person as well.LB: Yeah.
We haven't had this chance to sit down one-on-one the whole time. And I really am
grateful that you said “Yes” to doingthis. And it's been a great excuse to get
to know you just a bit better. So thank youfor those comments. And most of all, thank
you very much for coming in.LB: Well, thank you for having me. And I look
forward to hearing Season 03 and beyond.
(21:20):
[Outro]OF: Well it is time for me to start recording
Season 03. So we are going to have a breakfrom new guests for a short while. But as
I mentioned, I will now be releasing compilationepisodes comprised of the answers to the ten
questions that I’ve been asking all thirtyof the guests from Season 02. It’s really
(21:40):
fun to hear all thirty voices from the seasonspliced together, and answering the same question,
so I’m looking forward to putting thesetogether. I’ll release the first compilation
- on the subject of the guests’ favouritedestinations in mainland China - in two weeks’
time. And then the plan is to release thefollow nine in two-week intervals after that.
(22:01):
If you are a PREMIUM subscriber on Apple Podcasts,Patreon or 爱发电 [Àifādiàn], I’m
planning on releasing some extra mini-episodesnow and then just for you. I’m going to
use these extra PREMIUM episodes as experimentsin talking more personally and authentically
myself, so let’s see what happens. And Iwill also be in touch with PREMIUM listeners
(22:22):
for your contributions and questions for theguests of Season 03. So there is still a good
reason to continue to support the show. Youguys especially do help to keep me motivated
and - with your contributions - caffeinated.
Finally, a request to all of you listening.This gap between Seasons is a great way for
me to take stock of the show. And, just asI asked Logan for his feedback, I would love
(22:47):
to hear yours too. Which of the other 10 questionsshould I tweak, or switch out entirely? How
can I improve what I do on WeChat, or on othersocial media platforms? How can I do better
in general, with the overall tone of the show?And if I have any drop-outs for the upcoming
Season, who would you recommend that I replacedthem with?
(23:09):
I already said all my other 'thankyou's atthe end of last week's episode with Jiyoung,
so I'll sign off for now, and I'll catch youback here in two weeks.
[Trailer]LB: Well, I mean, is it normal that you do
these podcasts without clothes?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Thank you to everyone who could make it tothe end of season party last week, it was
(00:22):
great to see so many of you there. I think200 people showed up in the end, some past
guests, some listeners, and everyone in ashiny happy mood to mingle and have fun. And
I’m going to say sorry to those same peopletoo. You know, I aspire to be the kind of
person who makes people say “It’s amazing,when you’re talking with him, he makes you
(00:44):
feel like there’s no-one else in the room.”Well if it’s possible to do the exact opposite
of that, I think that's what I managed toachieve. For most of this project, it’s
just me and my laptop and my headphones. Soto suddenly be around so many people was a
bit overwhelming for a delicate soul likemyself. I don’t quite know how other people
(01:05):
do it, I had to spend the whole followingday laying prone in a dark room. So yeah,
thank you and sorry, I will try to keep improving!
We held the party at Tacolicious, a Mexicanrestaurant in the 静安 [Jìng'ān] district
of Shanghai. And the reason we held it thereis because I had already recorded today’s
(01:26):
special end of season episode with Logan Brouse,one of the team behind Tacolicious and someone
who is well known in the F&B scene here inShanghai. So please enjoy, and I'll be back
at the end with my final thoughts.
[Main]OF: Maybe you'll hear the cicadas. Or do you
say ‘ci-cay-das’? What do you say?LB: We say ‘ci-cay-das.’ But I grew up
(01:47):
in New Jersey, so I have a weird accent witheverything I say.
OF (01:50):
I thought it was San Francisco. LB
where they film The Sopranos - but from NewJersey, I moved when I was 13 to New Mexico.
Twenty-one, I moved to California, to SanFrancisco. Nine years later, I moved to Shanghai.
OK. Well that's actually quite a common story with many people in Shanghai, right?
LB (02:07):
Yeah. OF
move. Who the hell knows what we're doingat this point.
I think we're all finding ourselves. Especially in China, you know?
OF (02:14):
Yeah. It's been 10 years for you, so have you found yourself?
LB (02:17):
Well I think I found who I am now. My Chinese self may be different than my American
self.OF: Totally. Well, we’ve jumped straight
into our conversation. What I want to do isquickly introduce you.
Sure. OF
you are someone who I've wanted to have someconnection with this podcast for actually
two years, since we started. You have runrestaurants and bars…
(02:40):
Yes. OF
all kinds of other projects too. So when youtold me that you had, in your mind, the idea
of your own podcast project, that was whenI thought “OK, perfect. I will bring you
along to do this special bonus episode atthe end of Season 02.”
Well I was like… I would like to say like I was a young Luke Skywalker looking
(03:00):
for my Obi Wan Kenobi. I came through thedesert of 安福路 [Ānfú Lù] to find out
more about what is this mystical force thatsurrounds us, and envelops us, and helps us
create things. And you know, that is the Mosaicof China.
OF (03:14):
Obi Wan Kenobi, thank you, I appreciate that.
LB (03:17):
Well it's the accent, it’s definitely the accent.
OF (03:19):
You can bow down to me later. What I wanted to ask you then, was about your new podcast
project. So it hasn't been released as weare recording, but I'm guessing it's going
to be coming out pretty soon.LB: Yes. so the whole idea is called China
on the Rocks.OF: OK.
LB (03:33):
We talk with F&B people about F&B things - ‘F&B’ being ‘Food & Beverage’ - especially
how it relates to China. Like, for example,one of our first episodes was about cosmopolitans.
The cocktail, the cosmopolitan.OF: Right.
And I remember, I was working in a nightclub called M1NT. And ‘Sex and the City 2’
had just come out. And it was a worldwidephenomenon.
OF (03:52):
Awful film. LB
You were? LB
Seriously? LB
But the cosmopolitan - the cocktail itself- women were so liberated by this one cocktail.
And at nightclubs, we were making cosmopolitanslike they were going out of style, because
it was just the ‘fire’ drink to make atthat time. I was talking about that in the
(04:13):
podcast, like, that's part of the historyof China F&B. These little watershed moments
change whole points of view in a culture sometimes.OF: What, just not one American movie?
LB (04:22):
Yeah. It was a whole movement, Sex and the City, you know. And I think it hit China
pretty hard, especially Shanghai. So we'dsee the nightclub, these women would be dolled
up. And they were going for their cosmos.And it was such a glamorous thing. And that
was kind of the focal point about making thepodcast. It’s what are these movements that
we saw in China that influenced us, and influencedhow we react with customers and guests, and
(04:43):
how we make a better environment for everybody.OF: Well, that's a good example. And it just
shows that there is such a lot of room inthe world of podcasts, for more in-depth content
about China. It makes me realise the prosand cons of this project. You know, in many
ways, it is too broad.LB: Well, I mean, at the same time, mine…
(05:03):
You dig yourself into a little bit of a holeevery once in a while. Because sometimes we
think something about, like, the history ofthe Ramos Gin Fizz is so crazy cool in China,
and then realise nobody knows what it is.OF: Nope.
Like, that's the beauty of it, too. Like, we could go back and look at history books
from 100 years ago, there are cocktail bookswritten about Shanghai. Shanghai was a Bacardi
town 100 years ago. And it's just one of thethings we look into it, we look at the cocktails
(05:24):
that were made, and you're like “Oh, wow,these are gross!” Nasty. We made a couple
of them. And it’s the fun thing about livingin a city with so much history. But at the
same time, you get lost in all these bubbles,where only you know what you're talking about.
So I think it's the same kind of thing, youhave your walls you hit, and we have our walls
we hit.OF: I think I still see a difference, because
(05:44):
you're talking about your depth of knowledgethat you might alienate your audience with.
I am the opposite. Because the secret is,people would think “Oh, you come across
as quite knowledgeable”. No! I'm skatingacross a very thin layer of ice. The minute
we go a little bit deeper, I'm discoveredas an ultimate fraud. But that's the difference,
I think you would have this geeky knowledge,which means you can't get caught out.
(06:07):
Well I mean, to paraphrase Socrates, he said “The man who admits he knows nothing,
knows everything”.OF: Ha!
So I think you know a lot of stuff, and it's really good to admit when you don't know
things. Because then you can learn things.OF: Totally.
So I think in that case, we're both the same.
OF (06:20):
Well, I'm a fan already. So tell me once again, what is the podcast called, and when
is it going to be released?LB: So we're calling it ‘China on the Rocks’.
It's always going to be myself and then I'mjoined by three or four other co-hosts, depending
on who's available. And then hopefully, we'llhave a big announcement, maybe we can do it
together.OF: Oh, I will definitely be a fan, so I'll
be listening. And good luck with the project.LB: Thank you.
(06:42):
One of the things that I'm struggling with, I must say, is the authenticity of the
voice that I am projecting on Mosaic of China.Because authentically, I am a very snarky
person. Like, if we're talking about the UK,and we were in the UK, I would be incredibly
critical about all kinds of things.LB: Yeah.
Not because, necessarily, I'm being negative - I think the difference between being critical
(07:05):
and negative can be a thin membrane - butthat's just who I am. And one issue that I
found is that, I'm not being entirely myself,in the fact that I can't be that natural,
snarky **** that I actually am in real life.LB: Yes.
How are you approaching this with your podcast? Do you think that you're going to
have to bash against that wall, or is it notgoing to be an issue for you?
LB (07:27):
No, it's definitely an issue already. Like, the edits themselves have been kind
of interesting. There was a really popularsong that came out a few months ago about
mojitos by Jay Chou, the very famous singerJay Chou.
OF (07:40):
This was the hip-hop one, was it? LB
about mojitos, and the influences, and howthey are in China. And it's kind of like a
staple drink at every place you go to. Andit kind of went on to the singer and his origin.
And then we realised - as I'm even sayingit now - there’s tangents you could go on,
and tangents that you don't need to go on.OF: Yeah. I mean, absolutely you're right.
(08:02):
I agree. Maybe this is just my failing asa snarky Brit. For a positive, optimistic
American, maybe it's natural for you to notbe so snarky.
LB (08:11):
No I think, Logan 11 years ago, there wasn't WeChat, there wasn't Alipay. Like,
I've missed out on most of Western socialmedia. You had a ‘best of’ episode - or
the clips - and it was about your Chinesephrases. And one was, er…
OF (08:25):
Oh, 外网 [wàiwǎng]. LB
I just learned to live without that. It doesshape how I talk with people in the States.
But that's, you know… Any place you livein, it's gonna affect how you are.
Well… LB
I was tap dancing around that.OF: I saw it, I heard it, I marvelled in it.
No it's true. But just to crash through yourdance - especially when it comes to China
(08:46):
versus the States - if you are at all positiveabout China, you are branded as this weirdly
brainwashed China freak.LB: Yeah.
And then, if you do the other way around, well, you just ‘don't like China’. So
this tap dance is constant. I mean, this isexactly what we are living in.
LB (09:02):
Yeah. So now, while we're talking about censorship and everything, I noticed that
you were swearing earlier. What's going onwith that? Because I know this is rated ‘Clean’
on Apple Podcasts.OF: Actually, that is a good observation.
I do bleep out the swears. And I try not toswear that much, because it's a family show.
And I want this to be accepted by as manypeople as possible. So just in case anyone
(09:24):
is sensitive to swears, that’s probablywhy I don't do it. Like we're talking about
with authenticity, I as a person use swearwords like punctuation. So again, that's one
of the things that I'm not necessarily beingmy true self in. But - let me be honest with
you - I think it's funnier when you beep theswear.
Yeah. OF
hairy **** and I’ll **** you up the **** and************”, that's gonna come across
(09:49):
as even funnier than what I actually saidin real life.
Well, the funniest part is, he's gesticulating with his hands wildly.
OF (09:55):
Yeah, I'm surprised I didn't knock you in the head with my windmill.
LB (09:59):
Well, I think you got out Cocosanti’s China ‘toy’.
OF (10:05):
Oh! But that was heavily pixelated. LB
Yeah, I mean, exactly. It's the same thing. It's actually quite funny to see the pixelated
version of what that photo actually was. Inthat example, the true thing was pretty funny
too.LB: I mean, Cocosanti was doing our trivia
night at Tacolicious during that. So I waslike “Oh my god, this is so funny that you’re
here.”OF: I love Cocosanti.
LB (10:25):
Cocosanti’s awesome. OF
and I feel bad about that.LB: I do want to go back to the thing about
cursing, really quickly. And the reason beingis, I curse like a normal person, not less,
not more. But I used to be the cocktail columnistfor That’s Shanghai for a couple years.
OF (10:42):
For what Shanghai? LB
Got it. LB
into my columns. And I remember reading that,and I was like “I didn't write this. I didn’t…
Whoa, whoa, whoa.” And this is in the printmagazines. And I was like “Oh wow, guys.”
They were like "Logan, we want you to be alittle saucy”. So I put a couple of curses
in. But, like, it would be almost like anN.W.A. album. Like, it was just like ‘F’
(11:03):
‘F’ ‘F’, ‘S’ ‘S’ ’S’.I was like “Oh my goodness, guys. I don't
want to be that guy”. Then I started writingmore, because that's what they wanted me to
do. And all of a sudden they were like “Ohyeah, you can't curse any more, because this
goes to schools now”.OF: Oh god, “What do you want from me, man?”
That's so funny. Well, I mean, as much asyour reputation is to be this late-night party-boy,
you’re actually preppy looking, right?LB: Well, that's how you get away with everything.
(11:25):
OK. Man, this is it. I haven't learned anything.
LB (11:29):
Oh, this is what I learned, honestly, working at M1NT. You had to wear suit every
night, you had to be well dressed. And thenyou could just raise hell. You know, in a
suit people would be like “Oh, at leasthe has some cash behind him,” even if you
don't have anything. OK, just to change thesubject, I've got some questions I think maybe
people want to know.OF: OK.
So the first thing I wanted to know is, did you drink the beer from Vedett with your
(11:50):
face on it?OF: Do you know what, I had a sip, and then
I gave the other ones away. However, I didpost a photo of when I went to Duvel, the
headquarter.LB: Yeah.
OF (12:00):
And there, I did have two beers, which I did actually like better. There's something
about the white beer of the Vedett, I stillcan't do it.
LB (12:08):
Do you know what, I’m not a beer person. I’m famously not a beer person.
OF (12:11):
Oh, dude! High five! LB
companies know I'm not gonna even taste theproducts when they give them to me. It's not
my taste.OF: OK, I feel so vindicated now.
LB (12:19):
Yeah. No, you're good to go. OK, we kind of talked about this a little bit with Cocosanti.
But what's your favourite podcast-recordingmemory that you've had from all the interviews
you've done?OF: Um, that's funny, I was asked the same
question at the end of last season and I fudgedthe answer.
No, that's why I'm asking it. OF
I feel like it should be a seasonal recap question for you.
OF (12:40):
Yeah. Actually, the one that sticks in my mind the most now is probably the one with
‘Noxy,’ Noxolo.LB: OK.
Because… And maybe this is interesting, because you're American. The thing that it
really illuminated for me personally - itwas deeply personal - was the idea of, if
you don't have diverse friends, how do youmake diverse friends? Like, what do you, do
(13:02):
you have a sign round your neck saying ‘Iwant black friends’? And when I think about
what's happened in America in the last yearthat this series has been coming out, it's
been tumultuous for a number of reasons, ofcourse. But the whole conversation that we're
now having about race in America, the systemhas been so deeply segregated, that of course
(13:22):
you're not going to have as many friends fromthe other side of the divide, because of that
segregation that has somehow been built up.That reckoning in the States really weighs
on my mind, especially when we're here inChina, where actually there is no such reckoning…
LB (13:36):
Yeah. OF
race. So that interview with Noxy, it justseems to come up in my mind so much, because
of these deeper issues that I've personallybeen thinking about. I wouldn't want to put
it above any other interviews, it’s justthe one that seems to resonate in my mind
all the time.LB: Oh that’s great. I mean, hopefully every
(13:58):
season, we'll get a great answer. Because,I mean, you didn't fudge this one up at all.
OK, so I think for everybody that's interestedin doing podcasts - or you know, as a guy,
after you turn 35, you definitely want tohave a podcast, it's kind of in our DNA - if
you don't mind talking about it, how do youdo your recording stuff?
OF (14:15):
Good question. The equipment is such a specialised area, which gets very boring and
very geeky, very quickly. But basically, allyou need is, you can use your laptop. What
we're doing now is, we're plugged into GarageBand,which is the free application you get with
your Mac. I've put two microphones in, sonot one. But I could have just had one, and
(14:35):
we’d both be leaning in, very intimately.You have to really work out your sound quality.
So this is not ideal as a studio, because- you’ve probably heard - there are outdoor
noises that will be picked up. Plus, as muchas you try to muffle the sound, it is very
difficult to get rid of the echo. And aftera while, too much echo is hard on the listener.
(14:58):
So that is part of the equipment equation.So you've got your microphones. You've got
the mixer, which is basically the computer,GarageBand. Headphones, you don't necessarily
need. But if you want to get people to reallyfocus in on the interview, then headphones
are a good idea. And then it will also comedown to how you edit. And I use a bizarre
(15:20):
editing programme because I was taught howto edit podcasts by my previous editor who
was a friend of mine. And I really wantedto work with him, so I worked with him in
the first season. He then taught me how toedit. But actually he's not a professional
podcast editor, he actually is more a videoeditor. So I'm using a video editing programme
to edit down my podcast.LB: Oh, interesting.
(15:41):
It's the most bizarre thing. But anyway, you are starting your podcast. So what have
I missed out that you're using?LB: Whiskey.
Ha. LB
it’s a big glass of whiskey, then you drinktill the pain goes away.
Ah, If you're anything like me, listening to the sound of your own voice is excruciating.
LB (15:59):
Yes. OF
do differently? LB (16:06):
What I…? It's kind of… It's a tough one.
OF (16:09):
And look into my eyes. LB
think what I like, and what I don't like.And the ‘like’ column is a lot longer
than the ‘don't like’ column. Some ofthe stuff, I think, you just have to cut out,
that you find you have to cut out. WhereasI was hearing you talk about it before, like
some of the cuts you've done were some veryfunny stories that you just couldn't tell.
And I think sometimes that kind of stuff,people want to hear it. Even with bleeps at
(16:31):
all. Warts and all, we want to know what thingsare. But I think that would be the only creative,
constructive criticism I could really bringto the table.
I mean, thank you. I do want to keep improving. LB
these podcasts without clothes?OF: Beautiful.
LB (16:46):
Well, from a person who has opened a number of bars and restaurants in Shanghai, we design
something; we go to the construction; we seeit built; it's designed to spec; we have the
ideas all done; but it takes us about a yearor two to really understand how the restaurant
moves. Where do the people sit? Are they sittingin the places that we thought they'd sit in?
Are they sitting someplace else? Is the beermachine in the right area? Or is it someplace
(17:09):
we could have moved it, and we didn't thinkabout it? And sometimes it just takes a good
year or two - after you have your groove,and everything's done, and the dust is settled,
and the construction workers have left - andyou're like “OK, this wasn't landing where
I thought it would land. Why not? How do Iimprove that?” So sometimes it's good to
have your format done, have a couple yearsin, and go “OK, we ask 10 questions. What's
great about 10 when we could do 8 questions?”You know “Is there a filler question we
(17:31):
could be skipping? Or maybe something we couldbe changing?” Sharpening the platform a
little bit farther.OF: I am actually going to drop one.
Oh, wow. Big news here, guys. OF
to be the last question, which is ‘What'syour favourite China-related news source?'
The first reason is, it's the last question.And it's kind of a downer, like the other
(17:53):
ones tend to bring out interesting stories.And this one is very factual. I like it, but
it was a mistake to put that at the end, andthen have that being the finale. But secondly,
- and maybe you've noticed this - everyoneanswers in a very similar way, which is basically
"I get my news on WeChat”. And I have toadmit, that is how I would answer it. And
(18:13):
each time someone says it, I go “Ooh!”LB: Yeah.
OF (18:15):
That's my fault. It's the way I've worded the question. So for next season, I'm not
deleting it. But I am going to broaden thequestion so that you still could answer it
as a new source. But the question is goingto be now “What or who is the source of
your inspiration in China?”LB: That’s a good one, yeah.
Right? So of course, you can be inspired to think about something which you read in
(18:37):
the paper. So you could still say “Yeah,I always get my inspiration from reading this,
reading that.” But it allows now peopleto also say “No, my greatest inspiration
is Logan Brouse,” you know.LB: Makes sense. Checks out.
Yeah. The smell is a bit disconcerting. But otherwise, inspirational guy.
LB (18:52):
Well you said it was an ‘au naturel’ podcast, so… What I think is fun is, I like
how you have people recommend who’s nexton the show. And I think an interesting point
may be - and this is just me speaking, youknow, openly - is they could recommend with
a question too. Maybe it's something you haven'tthought of. Obviously, you would have total
control over what gets asked. But it couldbe like an interesting question that somebody
(19:12):
has a different point of view. And you couldbe like “Oh, what a cool thing this is.
I didn't write this, but I love this idea”.OF: That's an excellent idea. And what I want
to do in the next season is to involve, atleast the people who listen to the premium
version of the show, to come up with questionsfor the guests as well. But to build it into
the referral, that's a smart idea.LB: Hey, I'm just writing Season 03 for you,
(19:33):
that’s all.OF: It's true, I have to pay you a consulting
fee now. This has definitely been worthwhile.LB: I mean, one of the other things I was
gonna ask you…OF: Oh.
…Is out of the Season 01 Compilations, which one was a sleeper that surprised you
the most, with the interactions that cameout of it?
OF (19:46):
That's an unbelievable question, because that is the third and final thing I wanted
to say about what's happening next.LB: I’m crushing this podcast.
Because when I did those compilations, it was actually just to buy myself some time,
because I didn't want to start the secondseason of the podcast until people had returned
to China. So I was like “What can I do?”And that's when I came up with that idea.
(20:07):
But I am going to do that again, for Season02. Just to answer your question though, funnily
enough, the last one I did - which was a Compilationof Chinese phrases - that got the most traction.
I think that, out of all compilations, wasthe most popular.
LB (20:24):
Honestly, that's my favourite one. OF
Really. I take Chinese classes, and I actually asked my teacher “Can we go over
some more phrases?” And I used some of theones from the phrases that you gave. Like,
I think the one gentleman said something about‘One mountain can't have two tigers’.
OF (20:39):
Yes. LB
love this phrase”. And a lot of the phraseswere really, really cool.
Yeah. OK, you're making me think that that's something which I should double down
on, then. But that's interesting feedback.And I really appreciate hearing that, Logan.
You know, you're someone who I've known, inthe ether, in life in Shanghai. We met very
(20:59):
briefly and peripherally in person as well.LB: Yeah.
We haven't had this chance to sit down one-on-one the whole time. And I really am
grateful that you said “Yes” to doingthis. And it's been a great excuse to get
to know you just a bit better. So thank youfor those comments. And most of all, thank
you very much for coming in.LB: Well, thank you for having me. And I look
forward to hearing Season 03 and beyond.
(21:20):
[Outro]OF: Well it is time for me to start recording
Season 03. So we are going to have a breakfrom new guests for a short while. But as
I mentioned, I will now be releasing compilationepisodes comprised of the answers to the ten
questions that I’ve been asking all thirtyof the guests from Season 02. It’s really
(21:40):
fun to hear all thirty voices from the seasonspliced together, and answering the same question,
so I’m looking forward to putting thesetogether. I’ll release the first compilation
- on the subject of the guests’ favouritedestinations in mainland China - in two weeks’
time. And then the plan is to release thefollow nine in two-week intervals after that.
(22:01):
If you are a PREMIUM subscriber on Apple Podcasts,Patreon or 爱发电 [Àifādiàn], I’m
planning on releasing some extra mini-episodesnow and then just for you. I’m going to
use these extra PREMIUM episodes as experimentsin talking more personally and authentically
myself, so let’s see what happens. And Iwill also be in touch with PREMIUM listeners
(22:22):
for your contributions and questions for theguests of Season 03. So there is still a good
reason to continue to support the show. Youguys especially do help to keep me motivated
and - with your contributions - caffeinated.
Finally, a request to all of you listening.This gap between Seasons is a great way for
me to take stock of the show. And, just asI asked Logan for his feedback, I would love
(22:47):
to hear yours too. Which of the other 10 questionsshould I tweak, or switch out entirely? How
can I improve what I do on WeChat, or on othersocial media platforms? How can I do better
in general, with the overall tone of the show?And if I have any drop-outs for the upcoming
Season, who would you recommend that I replacedthem with?
(23:09):
I already said all my other 'thankyou's atthe end of last week's episode with Jiyoung,
so I'll sign off for now, and I'll catch youback here in two weeks.
Popular Podcasts
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Betrayal: Season 4
Karoline Borega married a man of honor – a respected Colorado Springs Police officer. She knew there would be sacrifices to accommodate her husband’s career. But she had no idea that he was using his badge to fool everyone. This season, we expose a man who swore two sacred oaths—one to his badge, one to his bride—and broke them both. We follow Karoline as she questions everything she thought she knew about her partner of over 20 years. And make sure to check out Seasons 1-3 of Betrayal, along with Betrayal Weekly Season 1.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.