December 20, 2021 • 57 mins
To mark the final episode of 2021, we're switching away from our usual programming to include an edited version of the discussion that Oscar had on The Honest Drink podcast. Recorded a few weeks ago, the conversation covers many aspects that we don't usually have a chance to explore in Mosaic of China, so I hope you'll enjoy listening to the different themes that emerge. A big thanks to Justin, Howie and Aric for giving permission to share this on the feed for Mosaic of China. The original full episode can be found at https://thehonestdrink.libsyn.com/99-oscar-fuchs-warts-and-all. Here's wishing everyone a great end to 2021. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 03:27 - Main Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-bonus-the-honest-drink. Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: You put all your ‘warts and all’ into
your podcast. Like, I know some of the worstthings about you, because of your podcast.
Aric SHANG (00:10):
Oh ****.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
But is it really Mosaic of China? Actuallyno, because as this is the final episode of
the year, I've decided to switch it up andput something special in your podcast feed
today. It's the audio of a chat from anotherShanghai-based English-language podcast called
(00:34):
The Honest Drink, hosted by Justin Yang, HowieGoh and Aric Shang. It's called The Honest
Drink because they make sure everyone is pliedwith alcohol during the recording, so the
resulting conversation is very uninhibited.The other part that I like about this show
is when the three hosts just talk among themselves,because they're all American Chinese guys
(00:54):
and it’s interesting to listen in on howthey see the world through this specific lens.
Mostly I agree 100% with what they say, othertimes I want to bash their heads together
for only seeing things through this lens.But they always do a great job of keeping
it real.
Let me also offer some more context, the recordingwas made a few weeks ago, just before I started
(01:15):
the mammoth task of recording the 30 new episodesfor Season 03 of Mosaic of China. So you'll
hear that I was stressed out about that. Atone point Aric says that he tries to keep
outwardly optimistic as a way of counteringhis more pessimistic inner voice. And of course,
the same can be said for me and for Mosaicof China, which has specifically been designed
(01:36):
to side-step negativity and to focus on people,culture and lifestyle. What you'll hear in
this episode is much more of that inner voicethat I don't usually share, which isn't just
because of the effort of producing this podcast,it's also to do with the crunch point that
many international people in China are facingright now. In COVID times, it has been incredibly
(01:58):
complicated to leave and come back to China,so after two years of playing 'wait and see',
many people are deciding to leave for good,including foreigners who have been here for
decades, even including some mainland Chinesewho are separated from loved ones overseas.
That's not to say that they dislike China,far from it, we've all been grateful to be
here. It's just that we are all having a tastewhat it meant to be émigrés in the past
(02:22):
- or indeed refugees in the present - whenleaving your home country meant that you don't
have the luxury of returning. Until now we'vealways had the privilege of having the best
of both worlds. But now, none of us know whetherwe're living in a COVID phase, or a COVID
era, so there are difficult choices to bemade. Having said that, difficult choices
(02:42):
are still choices, so we're still privilegedin that sense. And to end on an even more
optimistic note, as I speak today I have nowrecorded 18 of the new episodes, so I'm hopefully
on track to launch the new season in Springof next year.
Having offered my respect to Justin, Howieand Aric, I've also disrespected them because
(03:03):
I've edited the original audio by beepingout the worst of the swearing, and chopping
off about 30 minutes of the conversation.So if you want to hear the original, please
go and find episode #99 of The Honest Drinkpodcast wherever you're listening to this.
And while you're there, go ahead and subscribe.Here's wishing you all a great end to the
year, and I'll be back again with the nextcompilation episode from Season 02 in January.
(03:26):
[Main]Justin YANG: We got a fun one today. Our guest
is the host of the Mosaic of China podcast.It's a popular and wonderful podcast with
a diverse range of guests exploring the livesof people who are making their mark in China.
We share many laughs along the way. It wassuch a great time talking to our guest. So
without further ado, please welcome OscarFuchs.
JY (03:49):
Oh, 23 OF
(04:12):
it means it's good. OF
good, then don’t waste it on me. That'salso the issue.
JYL You’re too polite, Oscar. You’re toopolite.
OF (04:24):
I’m English. We're not really polite. We just use it as a weapon.
JY (04:28):
Here, make your own gin and tonic, however you'd like to make it.
OF (04:33):
Do you have any lime, by the way? JY
OK. JY
production that we’re running here?OF: Yeah man. A gin and tonic without lime.
All right.JY: No no wait, hold on. Let's do the whiskey
first.OF: OK.
JY (04:48):
Oscar, you say you hate whiskey? Is that right?
OF (04:51):
Oh are we already recording? Aric SHANG
JY (04:53):
Oh, we’re rolling. Howie GOH
OF (04:55):
Wait, what did I say until now? I have never been able to drink whiskey. I've tried.
It's one of those things where I know I shouldlike it. And everyone's a connoisseur with
whiskey. So I keep on trying to train myself.And each time I end up failing. So let’s
see if it works this time.AS: So what is it about it?
I can't tell you why. Because I quite like strong tastes.
HG (05:17):
重口味 [Zhòng kǒuwèi]. OF
JY (05:22):
Strong 口味 [kǒuwèi]! HG
can go a lot of ways.OF: Well, I don't know. Let's see what let's
see what happens.JY: Cheers.
HG (05:30):
Cheers to a shot of whiskey. OF
OF (05:35):
I mean, it's not bad. JY
[OF coughs]JY: There it is, there it is.
Oh dude. AS
JY (05:44):
Yeah exactly. OG
HG (05:47):
Feels good though, doesn’t it? JY
of a honey finish I liked.HG: Yeah, it's nice.
OF (05:52):
How would that rank for you guys? You're the connoisseurs here.
JY (05:55):
Well actually we're really not that knowledgable. AS
OF (06:00):
Beautiful. I feel slightly victimised. But thank you very much.
JY (06:05):
Make your drink. You can do a gin and tonic.
OF (06:08):
Thank you, I will. JY
AS (06:11):
I always like it when we go back to the roots of Honest Drink
JY (06:14):
What’s the roots? AS
we had a little bit of a ritual.JY: With the drink?
AS (06:21):
With the drink, bringing it out, what we're going to drink, tasting it a little
bit.JY: Yeah. All right. Well, cheers.
HG (06:31):
Good stuff. OF
JY (06:35):
Well Oscar, first of all, welcome to the show.
OF (06:39):
Thank you. I'm absolutely honoured to be here.
JY (06:42):
I'm so excited that you're here. You do amazing work with Mosaic of China.
OF (06:48):
Well, thank you. JY
I can get another podcaster onto the show.We kind of started off at the same time, right?
Right. JY
our podcasts, we started around the same time.OF: Yes. Around summer. 2019, right?
JY (07:03):
Yeah. OF
So it's really great to have you here to share this journey with you.
OF (07:08):
Totally. JY
we're kind of from the same tribe as podcasters.And I really appreciate that.
Oh I feel it, man. I am so excited. And maybe I speak for your listeners too. Because
just being here - in the exalted room whereyou do your podcast - it's like being in the
room with friends that I've known for a longtime, which I think is the way that you've
(07:30):
been able to produce your podcast, which I'msupremely jealous of.
JY (07:34):
The first time I met you, I feel like there was this mutual respect. Like, podcasts
in Shanghai, the bar was Mosaic of China.OF: Oh, dude.
Yeah, that's the one I knew, I heard of first.
OF (07:45):
Oh, OK. JY
around for a really long time. So to me, itwas like Mosaic of China was kind of like
the bar set here locally, in terms of podcasting.OF: Well, that's very kind. I think it's a
function of knowing how to make myself lookbigger than I actually am. I think when I
was actually in business, that was part ofwhat we did as well. Like, you are a small
(08:07):
minnow, but you learn the tricks of how tomake yourself look like the big shark.
JY (08:11):
You swim like a big shark. OF
part of my delusion, in fact.JY: Well is it kind of like the same philosophy
as ‘fake it until you make it’?OF: It is, sort of. But then you can't fake
it to the extent that there's there's nothingunderneath, you're just some soufflé. There
has to be some substance. So you can't saysomething which you're not. But you can project
an image that's larger than your actual size,that’s what I'm going for. But again, I
(08:36):
don't think I do a good job of that. I thinkyou guys are killing it. Like, I think you
have a lot more support than I have. And youwere under the radar for me, because I spent
most of my time in my cave, just doing myproject. And then when I found out about you
guys, I was like “OK, what the hell is thisabout? Let me listen to a few of these things”.
And I got into it, despite myself. Despitemyself, I really got into your podcast. And
(09:00):
I’m not supposed to like your podcast. Ithink you and I talked about this when we
met. Like, on the surface, I do not like theidea of your podcast. It's an hour and a half
long, it's too **** long. There's three dudestalking about **** in a room drinking bloody
whiskey, I can't drink whiskey either. I'mlike “I don't know why these guys are popular,
(09:23):
but I'll dip into a few episodes.” And Iwas hooked. So I know exactly the feeling
of your listeners. Because for me, just feelingthe energy of your conversations, I felt the
realness there. And that was what, I think,I was jealous of. Because I think a lot about
my podcast, it's of course real. But it'sa lot more measured. It's a lot more…
(09:44):
Controlled. OF
which I like. I like having a format to playwith. And then you having this freestyle,
no-holds-barred chat. It works. And actuallyit's at the heart of what podcasting should
be about. So when I listen to you, I feellike “Ah, that’s what I miss in my podcast”.
(10:06):
It's that energy that you bring every singletime. And I'm not talking about myself, I'm
actually talking with the listener in mind.I'm sure people out there are nodding, going
"I wish I was in that room talking with theguys too”. Because I feel like, in every
conversation you've had, I would’ve likedto have been in that room saying “Oh, yeah,
yeah. And my point is this. My point is that.”So, yeah, I'm not sure what I do lends itself
(10:27):
to the same informal way that people outsidecan be part of the actual experience.
But the most surprising thing after having met you was that you are such a bright personality.
Right? Like, you are so dynamic, there’sso much to you, that I honestly - like, I'm
(10:49):
going to tell you straight to your face - Ifeel like it doesn't come out in your podcast,
right?OF: Right.
And you give too much ground, I feel, to your guests.
OF (10:57):
Yeah. JY
number one. But I feel like there’s so muchyou can add, just knowing you, meeting you
in person, and seeing this personality. Ifeel like there's so much charisma you can
still add to your show, that probably yourlisteners don't know unless they've met you.
Right. I mean, I can't agree with that, because I don't know how to take that compliment.
(11:18):
But yeah, I mean, it is what I've been strugglingwith. And this is why I'm keen to talk to
you today, actually. Because I’m in theprocess now where I'm in the middle of two
seasons. So I'm producing my next season now.And I have this space to re-think “Well,
how do I approach the next season? In whatway do I carry on doing? And in what way do
I slightly change things?" So yeah, this conversation’shappening at the right time? To what extent
(11:42):
should I inject more from myself? But thealternate thing is, to me it's an exercise
in humility, in some way. Because I do havequite a healthy ego. And that's not something
I particularly like putting out there. Whichis why I like you guys, because you put all
your ‘warts and all’ into your podcast.Like, I know some of the worst things about
(12:05):
you, because of your podcast.AS: Oh ****.
HG (12:06):
That’s awesome. OF
vulnerability that I don't think I quite havethe balls to put out, at the moment. Everything
I do is authentic. But, you know, we're allin some ways performative, right? You have
a work persona, you have a persona which youuse with friends. Like, we all know how to
act differently in different situations. Andso, for me, I did think very carefully about
(12:30):
what is the side of me that I will put out,and what I wouldn't. So that's what I think
I need to recalibrate, you know. And findingyour podcast, getting into it, being reminded
about what podcasting is all about, and meetingyou guys, all of that is part of the same
process. We can learn from each other. It'snot about competing, like my podcast versus
(12:52):
your podcast. I love your podcast, and I'mproud of mine. It's not a zero sum game, right?
JY (12:56):
Yeah. OF
And it was a very… You know, you were talking about your first reaction, when you
first came across us, before you started listeningto us. And to be honest, it was a similar
reaction on my end. In terms of, like, thereis that natural competitiveness, I guess.
Especially when we're in a space, and in aplace, where It's very niche, right? And so
(13:22):
every other podcast that comes out, there’sa little bit of competitiveness. Like all
of a sudden, “Who's this guy? Who's thisnew kid on the block?”
OF (13:29):
Yeah. JY
grateful for having met you, and that we canshare this and we can work together. And we
can even help each other. Like, I honestlydon't see you as a competition right now.
I see you as a resource. And a help.OF: Awesome, me too. Yeah.
JY (13:46):
You know, and an inspiration in many ways. OF
heard, I'm not faking that myself. And yeah,I mean, I've met other podcasters, where I
thought I'd have the same conversation. Wemeet for a drink, and then the other side
just shuts down, becomes hostile. And I'mlike “What the hell's the point of that?”
I just don't understand that. And it's notlike I'm not competitive either, like I said.
(14:08):
They don't want to share a trade secrets. OF
And I'm like “Oh, which studio do you use?”“I'm not telling you.”
Woah. I feel like we were sharing everything the first time we met.
OF (14:17):
Totally. I mean, we’d had a couple of cocktails too. But no, I mean, that's the
spirit in which I reached out to you. Like,I had heard about your podcast, I reached
out to all three of you separately. And I'vegot to say that's where your characters all
came out. And I'm looking at you, Aric. Becausenow it's time to talk about Aric, because…
JY (14:36):
Because, let's bring some context. When we first met, it was just me and Howie, this
is your first time actually meeting Aric.OF: It is. And it's a pleasure. And we've
just had a brief introduction for ten minutes.Out of the three of you, you were the most
guarded when I reached out to you. So I thinkit was Howie first I reached out to, it was
like “Hey Howie, I heard your podcast. I'malso a podcaster, we should meet up. You know,
(14:56):
we're doing the same thing. Great to knowwhat you're doing.” Justin, it was a bit
later, but a similar story. And then Aric,I reached out to you. And you were funny,
because your reply… I wish I rememberedit, but it was like, “Oh. Hi. Oh, you like
the podcast? What's your three favourite episodesfrom The Honest Drink?”
That’s so him. OF
(15:20):
appreciated it, because I could have justbeen blowing smoke up your ass. Like “What
does this guy want?” you know? And you werelike “OK, you said that you like it? Prove
it”. I was like “OK, you are definitelyyourself in the podcast.” Because that's
the side that I relate to mostHB: Yeah, you were saying that you relate
to him the most.OF: Oh yeah.
HB (15:38):
You guys are kindred spirits. OF
AS (15:41):
A couple of funny things. No, I could talk all day as well. We've developed a certain
chemistry and we're also trying to calibrateas well. I think we have a great thing. Like,
we definitely really enjoy doing this. Andwe've had our ups and downs. And it's been
a wild ride for a couple of years. And ourfeelings about the show, about each other,
(16:08):
have evolved over time as well. I mean, reallyups and downs. Like I mean, 180 degrees. Like,
the first batch of episodes, we didn't reallyknow what we were getting into. And we were
trying to find our footing. Recently, as westart that same thought process - right, because
we're in about the same part of our journey- It’s like “OK, well, what do we like
(16:30):
about this? What do other people like aboutthis? Where do we get our energy?” And spending
so much time together, doing something together,inevitably there's going to be much more friction.
OF (16:40):
OK, you're doing this recalibration. So why are you doing this podcast? Have you figured
that out?AS: Yeah. Once people know you have a podcast,
and once you start doing a podcast, inevitablyconversations with people in your community
will come up about the podcast. Because peoplewill be like “Oh, you have a podcast? What's
it about?”OF: Wait, let me let me interrupt you right
(17:00):
there. Are you at the point now where youcan say “I'm a podcaster” or “I have
a podcast” without feeling like you're acomplete wanker?
AS (17:08):
Yeah, we have big egos. Like… OF
and they say “Oh, I've got a podcast.”Like immediately, I would run away. Like “Oh,
you're that person".JY: Yeah.
OF (17:18):
That’s one wanker in every party, and I'm that wanker now.
AS (17:22):
I appreciate your view on that. And I suppose this goes back to some of your earlier
very complimentary thoughts. It’s that theshow is a metaphor for life, the show’s
a journey that shows a way that we're goingto improve as human beings.
OF (17:37):
Please don’t improve. I like your weaknesses. AS
JY (17:42):
I think that's what the thing is about the show, right?
OF (17:44):
Yeah. JY
honesty is a very tough… It's tough. Andit's scary. To be honest, we don't always
achieve that. We're not always successfulwith that, even on our show. But I think for
me, the driving force behind - at least, I'llspeak for myself - behind doing this podcast
(18:07):
is the constant attempt to achieve that honesty.OF: Hmm.
JY (18:11):
Whether we fail or succeed, hey. But at least we're attempting - and we're genuinely
attempting - to do that, no matter what kindof conversation we're having. And that to
me - combined with a genuine curiosity - isalways kind of like my North Star. Whenever
(18:32):
I'm thinking like, “Oh, what is the showabout for me?”
HG (18:35):
I'm here for the alcohol. So I'm just here to drink. I don't know. But I mean, one
thing that I've always kept harping on about,and I always still bring up, is our backgrounds.
Of being American, but also Chinese, and thecomplexity of having both sides.
OF (18:53):
Yeah. HG
we have conversations, I'm always constantlytrying to think from that perspective. What
makes us different from everybody else? Imean, you want to talk about complexity to
life, I’m sure there are thousands of podcastsout there to talk about the complexity of
life. You want to talk about curiosity andstuff like that, there are thousands of podcasts
that talk about curiosity. But I can't namemany podcasts that come from our perspective,
(19:17):
combining all that.OF: Totally. Yeah, I think that's it. That's
it, in a nutshell. I think it combines thecontent, and you guys's identity. Because
that’s the two circles of the Venn diagramwhich you inhabit. I mean, I'm also conscious
of that, because I'm a white dude in Asia.And I've got a podcast called Mosaic of China.
So I've got to be very careful with the identityside when I do my podcast. I try and keep
(19:41):
my guests to a minimal when it comes to otherwhite guys, because it’s not a good look
to have two white guys talking about China.And that's another thing where actually you
have an inbuilt advantage, just with youridentities. Where you can talk to anyone - you
can have a whole parade of white guys in - andyou still are diverse because of you three.
(20:02):
Whereas I'm always conscious of that.JY: Interesting.
Yeah, totally, totally. Part of my project is to have as diverse a slate of guests as
possible.JY: So do you have like a white guy quota?
In terms of, it’s kinda like a China filmquota?
I basically do. I have a ‘Diversity Audit’, I call it. Because I can look at
(20:22):
the whole season. So I do seasons of 30 episodes.And it's on purpose, so that I can look at
that season, and I can say “OK, how manyChinese people do I have?” I try and get
usually 10 out of 30 to be mainland Chinese.And then out of the remaining 20, how do I
split that in terms of nationality? Then Itake a look at it again, and I go “OK, that's
(20:46):
just the identity side. What about what itis that they do?” So I look and say “OK,
how many do I have from the world of business?How many from arts, how many from science,
how many from academia?” And I make surethat that diversity is pretty well looked
after. And then male/female, I have 50% male,50% female, that's something which I will
not negotiate on. So if you look at my podcasts,it’s literally boy, girl, boy, girl, boy,
(21:10):
girl. And then it comes down to LGBT as well,I have LGBT representation. You wouldn't know
it to listen to it, but one in five of myguests are LGBT, or queer in some way. We
don't talk about it, it’s not an issue.JY: It's not the focus, right?
It’s not the focus. But it's an underlying ethos in terms of what I'm doing, just to
(21:30):
kind of riff off what you just said aboutyour podcast. it's about celebrating the diversity
of the human experience, as well as the factthat there is a universality. It's not about
actually saying “Oh, you're different”.It's about saying “You're different. And
we're all the same”. I can enjoy the differences,and I can poke at the differences. And that's
(21:51):
interesting. But ultimately, the human experienceis exactly the same. And it doesn't have to
be Mosaic of China, it could be a Mosaic ofMozambique, and it would be the exact same
experience. Yeah.JY: I love that. So, your turn to answer the
question, Oscar.OF: You see, guys, I managed to actually interview
you guys on your show.JY: You flipped the tables for a moment.
It’s all a deflection tactic, because I don't have the answer either.
JY (22:14):
Yeah. OF
yours. I started my podcast after I'd soldmy company. So I had a headhunting company
for 10 or 11 years, I managed to sell my entireshare without being needed to stay with the
company beyond the sale. Which was quite rare,to actually be able to walk away. And it happened
(22:38):
at a time that I wasn't expecting it. AndI never really had a Plan B. Like “OK, I've
sold my company now.” If I was a true entrepreneur,I would have set up another company. But I
realised “No, I don't want to do that. Infact, I'm quite allergic to the entire endeavour.”
So there was a bit of the "What do I wantto do that makes me happy. But what also can
(22:59):
I do that keeps me relevant”. That was theego side. And it's not just the ego, it's
also what I enjoy. Which is to be in the trafficof ideas. I think that's what I liked about
being a headhunter. And I specifically headhuntedHeads of HR. So that always meant that I could
(23:20):
meet somebody from the tech sector one meeting,it could be pharmaceuticals the next meeting,
it could be artistic the next one. So I wasalways kept curious during my 10/11 years
as a headhunter. And I wanted to somehow havesomething that could emulate that without
the trappings of headhunting which I did notlike. And there were quite a few at that stage,
I mean I was just burnt out. It's a long wayof answering that question. You know, I don't
(23:44):
want it to become something which I don'thave control of. You know, something where
it's a monster which then I have to just keepon feeding, somehow. And I know you guys go
through this, right? Like “Oh ****, I’vegot another episode coming up. We've got no
guest, we've got nothing planned, like whatthe hell do we do?” And suddenly is like
“Wait, this is supposed to be fun. Like,why am I putting pressure on myself?” So
I'm in that stage right this very moment,when you're interviewing me. This is probably
(24:09):
why it's on my mind. Because I've got a lotgoing on right now, which has started to stress
me out. And so now I'm thinking “What thehell am I doing? Why am I stressing myself
out?" I've got it into my head that I willdo a big tour of China, and interview all
the people who are coming up in the next seasonwho are outside of Shanghai. I want to interview
(24:29):
them all in person.JY: On the road?
OF (24:31):
On the road, face to face. JY
That gives me a different perspective of China. It's not meant to be ‘Mosaic of
Shanghai’.JY: Yeah.
And then… here’s where it gets really wonky. Because if you have two good ideas,
sometimes they can clash, and it becomes onebig stupid **** idea. And that's kind of what's
happened now. Because I had another idea.So in my podcast, I have a second part of
(24:56):
every interview where I ask everyone the sameten questions. So there's a freestyle part
at the beginning. And then there's a formulaicpart in the second half.
JY (25:04):
Yeah, like the Rapid Round. OF
you get a very different style in those twoparts. And then you can compare how thirty
different people in the season answer thesame question, from their different backgrounds,
different perspectives. And that's great tocompare. I had the idea “Oh, you know what,
I could try and get sponsors for those tenquestions.” So the question on “What's
(25:27):
your favourite destination in China,” Icould have a travel agent sponsor that question
and say “Question 2 - brought to you by‘blah, blah, blah’- is…” And so that
was a great idea. But now, I've got threedays before I start the bloody interviews.
And so I was writing a proposal about sponsorship- which I've never done - and reaching out
(25:48):
to people saying “Hey, what about this foran idea?” With no proven track record, and
stressing myself out like an idiot. When Igo to my first interview, what do I say? Do
I actually have to ask two different versionsof the questions? One if I get this sponsor,
one if I don’t get this sponsor? What thehell am I gonna do? And I haven't worked it
out. And I'm just sat there going, “Thisis a weekend, and I'm stressed out sending
(26:09):
proposals out. Why am I doing that?” Anda part of that is the vestigial business side
of me, which means I can't help but createsomething out of this project. And I'm thinking
“Why am I doing that? That's not why I started”.And yet I need it almost as a kind of ‘proof
of concept.’ That, if I can get more buy-in,then it proves the concept more to me. And
(26:34):
I'm thinking “Is that why I'm doing it?”JY: Does that go back to your ego? Is that
the ego speaking?OF: I think it is. But it's also… I’ll
totally you what it also is. It is becauseI'm proud of the content, and I need to find,
I need to find creative ways for people toamplify my content.
Yes. OF
me. You know, when I, when I lie in bed andquestion myself, like “Why am I doing it?”
I hope it's that latter explanation, and notso much the ego side.
(26:56):
Yeah. OF
things.JY: Sounds like… Don’t take this the wrong
way. It sounds like it's really tough beingyou, in the sense that there's this duality
to you.OF: Yes.
And they're conflicting, and they're constantly bumping up against each other. Because everything
(27:19):
- that you're saying that brings you stressand pressure now - was all brought on by yourself,
seeking them out.OF: Mm hmm. Totally.
So it's this constant tug of war. OF
before your eyes.JY: I was gonna bring that up.
OF (27:36):
Oh, I’m a walking mid-life crisis. I mean, OK, let me tell you what this is. Because
when I talked to you before about when youmeet somebody at a party, and are you confident
to say that you have a podcast without feelingthat you are a wanker, right? Imagine if,
when you meet somebody at a party, and theanswer is “I’m retired”. Like, that's
(27:59):
the stuff that I'm dealing with, because thatactually is my status. I've sold my company,
and I'm basically not going to work again.I'm retired. And when you meet somebody at
a party, and they said they're retired, Imean, “Why are you here? You might as well
just be dead. What relevance do you have?”You know? So I think going to absolute irrelevant
(28:20):
obscurity is, to me, a scary chasm to lookinto. And I think that is the conflict, the
conflict is I have this amazing luxury ofdoing what I want. And at the same time, I
want to remain relevant.JY: And still have value to society.
It’s the value to society, yeah. It's kind of “Why are we doing anything?” When
(28:42):
you are not defined by what you do, then actually,who are you?
JY (28:45):
Yeah. OF
have time to ask yourself while you're busyworking, none of you have really done that,
I’m sure. You are what you're doing, andyou’re a podcaster on top, you have multiple
identities.HG: I can guarantee like, if the average person
would come up to you - who’s a worker, right?- he’ll come to you, like “Oh my god,
I'm so jealous of you. You're retired? I mean,you have no worries, right?”
OF (29:05):
I mean, I have to accept that. I mean, of course, I've created all the bull**** myself.
Intrinsically, you’re absolutely right.And I have to keep on saying that. I have
to keep on saying that. But I'm a total idiot.And I won't take that as the gift that it
is. I will overcomplicate things, in a waythat is exactly why I relate to Aric. Because
(29:26):
Aric is - out of the three of you - the leasthappy-go-lucky. You're the person who over-thinks,
over-questions. And that's why I really feelfor you, because I'm sure if you were in my
position, you'd be just as gnarled up as Iam.
HG (29:38):
I feel like we should definitely bring that up, because Aric was not there when we
were together talking. And you did say that,like you felt this relationship with Aric.
And you brought up your Excel, and you werelike “I wish I could show Aric the Excel
that I made”.OF: Oh, I should’ve brought it.
JY (29:56):
Aric can pull out many Excels right now. OF
with the number of worksheets I have for thepodcast. The workflows, and they're all colour-coded…
Oh my god, they're beautiful.JY: Aric’s getting competitive now, he's
like thinking “You don't have more thanme, Oscar.”
OF (30:09):
Oh. AS
one is like, your inner voice is really loud.Just like mine is, just like all of us. But
your inner voice is really, really loud. It'stelling you all these things. And sometimes
it's telling you some great things. like “OhOscar, you're great”. And then sometimes
your inner voice is telling you “You'renot good enough. You're not doing enough,
(30:33):
what you're doing is not enough.” And thiswhole notion of being relevant, it's almost
like your inner voice is reflecting your owninsecurities. Like, that other person actually
doesn't give a ****, potentially right? Butyou're like “Oh, I'm not relevant to myself,”
almost. It's not that other person, right?At what point did achieving things and being
(30:57):
relevant… When did that start matteringto you? Because I could pinpoint when it started
mattering to me. I mean, it was like fiveyears old, or six years old. So at what point
did it matter to you?OF: The status of being a successful business
owner was quite important. For the reasonsthat Justin, you pointed out right at the
beginning of our conversation. Which is, Iam a silly, ridiculous person.
JY (31:21):
I didn't say all those things. OF
my own views.JY: That’s the way you took it.
OF (31:28):
I’m basically the person who will not take anything seriously. And so I enjoyed
the juxtaposition of being that person andthen somebody later on saying “Oh, but he
owns his own business. And is successful.”And I quite enjoyed that status part, because
it offset my ridiculousness. The silliness,which I just can't help projecting.
AS (31:48):
Why do you feel like you need that validation? Was there some point where you were you were
being silly, where it wasn't appropriate forthe moment?
OF (31:56):
Oh totally. AS
Because I think I'm good at subverting the expectation. So I quite like being silly
in a business context, where the expectationis that you're going to do a serious talk
here. Like you're a presenter at this conference,and you're going to make a joke about poo?
Everyone laughs, because it's subverting expectations.AS: Yeah. Were you the class clown?
(32:17):
I wasn't the class clown. No, no, no, not at all.
JY (32:19):
But you didn’t want to conform. Like, you're not for conformity.
OF (32:23):
I'm quite a conformist. YJ
It's a total paradox. I'm a conformist trapped in a non-conformist body.
JY (32:33):
It's like Jekyll and Hyde with you. HG
OF (32:37):
But that's why this project, it really it speaks to what I am. And there is a lot
of complexity behind it, absolutely.HG: Yeah, we were quite impressed when you
were explaining how you organise your showsand, and each season, you know, based off
of all the different tabs and etc, etc. Imean, that just shows that it's actually the
(32:59):
‘Mosaic of Oscar’, you know. It’s notthe Mosaic of China.
JY (33:02):
No. HG
got a lot going on here.OF: It’s very specifically curated, yes.
Yeah. OF
what I'm doing, it is that. I am actuallyquite passionate about showing people that
diversity is a good thing.JY: Yeah.
OF (33:21):
You know what I mean? JY
It has to fit the DNA of what you're all about.OF: Do you know what, so ‘Mosaic’ wasn't
the first name that I came up with.JY: Oh well what was it, what was the first
name?OF: I had a really good idea, but it ended
up being racist.HG: Oh, you’ve got to share it now.
JY (33:36):
Yeah, what’s this? OF
right?JY: Yeah.
OF (33:41):
The idea is that I whisper something into your ear.
JY (33:43):
Yeah. OF
at the end will say something, and it willend up having been completely different to
what was first said, right? Everyone's nodding.JY: Yeah.
OF (33:52):
In England, that is called ‘Chinese Whispers’.
HG (33:54):
Oh. JY
OF (33:57):
Well, it comes back from, I think, when we were doing the Opium Wars. This is the
British, right? And it was in the 清 [Qīng]Empire, when the 清 [Qīng] Empire was in
disarray. And it was, like, how the mandarinsof the Qing Empire would communicate, and
they would get garbled up, from one mandarinto the other mandarin. And so it was, you
know how when you're at war - or when you’rejust generally at loggerheads - you would
(34:22):
attribute bad qualities…JY: You try to dehumanise the other people.
Or just, if there's a bad thing, you would attribute it to your enemy, right?
AS (34:28):
Right because if you were practising understanding of the other culture, and trying to understand
their perspective, then you probably wouldn'tbe in a war. The fact that you’re in a war
is because you think that these people arehopeless.
OF (34:44):
Oh, no, it’s… I mean, look at Trump, ‘The China Virus’, it's the same, it's
been going on since Voltaire, this is somethingwhich is not new. And not just China, it's
the West and the East, we always use the otherside as a foil as to what we either want to
do, or what you'd rather avoid. When you lookat it from the bigger context, China versus
(35:05):
the West. I mean, in America, I think youhave something called ‘a Chinese Fire Drill’?
JY (35:10):
Oh, is it called the ‘Chinese Fire Drill?’ HG
OF (35:14):
Exactly. It's the same racist trope, where “Oh, the Chinese are panicking, and going
round and round.” It's the same thing. Anyway.So that's a little bit of a detour. But that's
why in the end, I was like “Maybe I shouldn'tcall it 'Chinese Whispers’”.
JY (35:26):
That’s funny. OF
Well, that saved you, you did the research. Imagine if you didn't do the research, and
today we're talking to Oscar from ‘ChineseWhispers’
HG (35:33):
‘Chinese Whispers’ with the Season 2, ‘Chinese Fire Drill’.
OF (35:36):
God. AS
Honest drink is so racist. They invite racistpeople on the show, etc, etc.”
Yes, I sidestepped that one. Yeah. JY
to unpack with you. You were talking beforeabout like the midlife crisis. And this is…
You know, some of our earliest episodes revolvedaround this issue, because this is kind of
(36:00):
the genesis…HG: That was our catalyst.
JY (36:01):
So I just find that really fascinating. And I'm wondering, from your standpoint, would
you classify your crisis as a struggle with…You know, we talked about ego, but would it
be maybe down to your identity? Because you'retalking about, like, who you are in these
(36:21):
dualities, these split sides you have. Wouldyou boil all that down simply to a sense of
identity?OF: I mean, again, we're in a period where
I'm stressed out. I've stressed myself out.So I don't know how I would answer this question
in a different time. But right now, the timingis such that I'm stuck in China for two years.
(36:44):
And I wonder to what extent that is the underlyingreason why I am really going crazy. Because
I've lived in Asia now for 18 years. And untilnow, it's always been a plus. Whatever my
baseline is, me living in Asia adds somethingto it. It's just always been an augmentation
(37:07):
of my ideas, the things that otherwise I wouldn'tthink about. I can look at Europe, I can look
at the States from an inside/outside perspectivethat I've always enjoyed. In a way that I
know that if I was still in my day job inLondon, I wouldn't really have the wherewithal
- I wouldn't have the tools - to even knowhow to question my own culture. Now that I
(37:29):
have not been able to set foot outside ofChina for one day in two years, for the first
time I feel like it's becoming a minus. It'sa weird thing that I can't articulate. I've
just started to think of it in these termsrecently.
Can you put your finger on it, in terms of what it might be?
OF (37:46):
it's a pressure valve that needs to be released, for me. When I've lived in Asia,
we have thought of it as a right, almost,that every three or four months we can go
to a different place, reset, and then lookforward to coming home to China. I would even
say it in those terms. Or ‘home’ to ifI lived in Hong Kong, or when I was in Singapore,
(38:08):
or when I was in Japan. I’m coming home,and I'm looking forward to my home, and my
life in this country. I never, never use theword ‘expat’. There's no distinction between
me and another economic migrant, I am a justa migrant, I've chosen to be here for economic
reasons. This is my home. Without that pressurevalve being released, the negativity of being
(38:29):
in any strong culture - and China is a strongculture, especially right now - is I think
building up. Which is, I think, the main reasonwhy I'm not just skipping down the road, you
know, happy go lucky. And you've talked aboutthis on the podcast, too, because we are in
the world of content production. And thatputs me in a situation where I'm responsible
(38:52):
for putting things out into the world. Andmy mindset is not in the same place that it
was two years ago. So perhaps that's what'smaking me question, like “What am I doing?”
This is what a midlife crisis is. It's “Whatam I doing? Why am I doing it?” Right?
JY (39:06):
Well, maybe you're just getting a little bit of cabin fever.
OF (39:08):
Yeah, it's not just cabin fever. I mean, you're right, I don't want to talk over you.
It's more than just that, because it's tiedin with what I'm doing day in, day out. Which
is presenting this case for understanding,cross-cultural communication, and fun. At
a time when perhaps I'm not entirely havingthe most fun, you know. That’s something
(39:32):
which I don't think I can change. I love beingin China, and I love escaping China. And when
one of those outlets is not open to me, thenI feel that this is the first time in 18 years
that I feel like I'm missing out on not beingelsewhere in the world right now. So I'm just
at a crunch point.JY: Well, how has being a Brit - and having
(39:54):
the experiences, and spending the time youhave in China, and seeing it as a home - how
has your perspective changed over time, youfeel?
So this is going back to identity. So you said “being a Brit”, I am a British
(40:15):
citizen, but my family were refugees fromthe Czech and Slovak Republics, or ‘Czechoslovakia’
as it was in ’68. We’re also Jewish, sothat's part of my identity. I'm gay. All of
these parts of my identity, they mean thatI never really feel like I'm an insider. I
(40:35):
mean, I've never really been ‘the Brit’.I've been the weird Brit with a name that
sounds weird. I mean, my name is not English.So I've never really felt like I've changed.
When I've been here, I've been able to skirtabove mainstream society when it suits me,
(40:55):
or delve into some kind of mainstream societywhen it suits me. That's kind of how I've
lived my life anywhere in the world. WhichI guess is why, you know, I am this ‘diversity
person’. I mean, it's just part of who Iam. And at the same time, I’ve created this
identity of being ‘the China guy’, right?HG: Yeah.
JY (41:16):
Yeah, I think the reason why I asked my question is because, previously on shows we've
discussed our identities as Asian Americansliving here, sometimes feeling lost in between
both sides. But you being in Asia for 18 years- to generalise, being ‘a white guy', right?
(41:39):
- how do you…HG: Being a racist…
OF (41:42):
Being a racist white guy, yeah. Come on, give me my full title.
JY (41:49):
But just like finding that identity, being here for 18 years.
OF (41:53):
Yeah. JY
group of family, friends from past and now.You know, where do you sit now? Because of
the recent climate?OF: Yeah. I mean, it's something where maybe
I have a different experience to you.JY: Yeah.
You know, in one of my episodes - it was the finale of Season 02 - I talked with somebody
(42:15):
who had transitioned. We’re talking aboutgender. And that was a fascinating story,
in a way that made me think about my experience.Because the thing about people who have transitioned
- and it's a controversial topic, but - isthe word ‘passing’. So if you can pass
as the gender which you feel, then that allowsyou to get through life without coming under
(42:40):
too much external pressure. That's what passingmeans. So if someone who has transitioned
- or is in the process of transitioning - ifthey ‘pass’ for the gender that they feel,
then they are in a privileged position.AS: Like Thomas Jefferson's children with
Sally Hemings. There were a couple of themthat could ‘pass’ as white men.
That's it. So there's a racial version of it, there’s a gender version of it, all
(43:03):
kinds of things manifested in different ways.AS: People will… You can, if you decide
to act that way, you can ‘pass’ and beconsidered by someone else as part of that
tribe.OF: Right.
HG (43:15):
It's legitimacy, that’s all it is. AS
OF (43:16):
It is. And then all of this is to talk about you guys. In China, you can ‘pass’.
So you have a lot more flexibility. Becausewhen you want to, you can ‘pass’ as a
Chinese person. Whereas I'm a walking advertfor who I am. And I think that's a different
aspect that maybe - you know, because youare all American Asians - that's the diversity
aspect that you might lack in your perspectivesof living in China. Now, it's not a terrible
(43:42):
experience to live in China as a white person.It’s fine. But you do understand the micro-aggressions.
You do understand that. I mean, let me putit this way. If I ever got involved in a situation
where the police were involved, there is noway I would imagine the police would be on
my side. Like “I'm in trouble here”. WhichI think a Chinese person listening to that
(44:08):
would go “What do you mean? The police,they're here just to be safe. What are you
talking about? You're this aggressive whiteperson, whatever.” In exactly the same way
that a black person in America would feelabout the police. It gives you this perspective,
which you would never have had. And just theway that… OK, let's say it was a year ago
now. I was in 丽江 [Lìjiāng] airport.And it was post-COVID. And there was this
(44:30):
table set up. And they were pointing to everyonewho did not look Chinese to come and sign
extra paperwork. I was with an Asian American,but I was the one who had to go and sign the
extra stuff. It's nothing. Like, I had towalk through 静安 [Jìng'ān] Park. I went
all the way through 静安 [Jìng'ān] Parkbefore the guard came and dragged me back
all the way to the front. I was almost atthe end, but he dragged me all the way to
(44:53):
the front. He was like “No, you have toget out of the park". Tiny things like that
affect your experience. Where it's not lifethreatening - in other parts of the world,
it could be life threatening - but I thinkthat's where I would say to your answer about
my identity in China. It's absolutely fine,I have a privileged existence here. But I
(45:15):
just get the strong sense - no matter whereI go in China - that China’s for the Chinese,
right now. I don't want to bash on China forthis one aspect, and these tiny little things
that have happened in two years. Because Istill love being in China. But yeah, it's
palpable. And especially without this escape,that's what starts to build up.
JY (45:37):
Well it feels like it's intensifying, given the political climate.
OF (45:40):
Totally, yeah. HG
JY (45:44):
Yeah, we had a whole conversation… HG
it. But I’ll use myself as an example, asan Asian American holding a US passport. I'm
already feeling some of the… Like, whenpeople find out that I am American, there's
already this little bit of like, you know“Hmm, should we work together?” You know
(46:07):
what I mean? Like, that kind of feeling, thisunderlying prejudice, almost. And even being
Chinese, looking ethnically Chinese. As ajoke I was saying, like… Because on my bio
- I’m a director, I have to send out mybio, you know, to get jobs and stuff like
that - it clearly states in the first line,I'm born in America etc. etc. It's like “Should
(46:30):
I take that out?” You know what I mean?OF: Yeah.
HG (46:33):
Maybe I should take it out. Because these days, the climate, it's a lot more sensitive.
You know, being an American. Especially asan American. Australian, American, UK.
OF (46:42):
Yeah. AS
And this is a self-erasure. When people talk about erasure, that’s exactly what
you're doing. You’re literally erasing youridentity, to be able to ‘pass’. It's not
a comfortable decision. But of course, there'sno black and white. I think, in every interaction,
we are making very quick decisions based on“OK, to what extent do I reveal that part
(47:03):
of my identity or not,” right?JY: And this ties into like… You gave me
a new perspective, talking to you. And I neverreally realised it before. But when you were
talking about your identity, when I calledyou a Brit, and you're like “Well I’m
many other things including a Brit, but I'mJewish, I'm gay. I'm a lot of things”. And
(47:26):
it struck me - and it was a revelation tome - because we've talked about the idea of
Third Culture, right. And from our personalexperiences, you know, we've talked before
about this feeling of thinking or feelinglike we are Third Culture kids…
Yeah. JY
living in China, and we don't feel like weare fully 100% accepted in either place. And
(47:47):
that puts us in this kind of Third Culturespace. Or we feel like maybe we're a little
lost, we don't know what home is necessarily.And when you were talking about your own identity,
I feel like that is just even more dynamicof a situation.
Yeah. JY
(48:09):
with. And so how do you deal with this feelingof identity, a feeling of belonging, a feeling
of like what your tribe is, what your homeis? All that comes into play, and I can’t
really imagine like how it feels for you.OF: You’re right. When I listened to your
podcast - going back to the whole podcastconversation - you say ‘Third Culture’,
(48:32):
I would call your perspective, quite binary.You are China versus America, which is great.
But when you say that, and then you you talkin terms of ‘West versus East’, that's
when I think, “Is this West versus East?This is just China/US”. I appreciate it
when you say “China versus US”, whichare your two perspectives. But I've lived
(48:54):
in four different places in Asia. Everythingis nuanced, right?
JY (48:58):
Yeah. OF
one way it's a gift, because I can look atthings from 13 different angles. In a way
that that's my superpower, actually. And ofcourse, the same superpower is a big weakness.
Because, yeah, I can never relate to peoplein a way that allows me to say “Look, I
(49:19):
am your people, so listen to me. This is whatwe should all be thinking.” Because no one
really relates in the same way. I'm a European,from Eastern Europe and the UK. I've lived
in Germany. I married an American, he's California.And we met in Asia. It means that I fit everywhere,
and I fit nowhere.HG: Well that’s beautiful, though, to me.
(49:42):
I feel like that that should be the way weshould be moving towards, as a society.
OF (49:46):
Kind of. But what I was saying was you fit everywhere, but you fit nowhere at the
same time. That's the dichotomy. Again, it'sthis duality.
HG (49:55):
Yeah. AS
know, from our perspective - and it's, it'sjust a dialogue that’s really important
- because like, you know, then we could takethis judgmental view over the years that “Oh
Caucasian people can get away with anythingin China.” Right? “And they have certain
privileges,” and stuff like that.OF: Which is generally true, yeah.
AS (50:14):
It’s true. But it's important for us to get your perspective. Like, there's always
a microscope in some ways on you, becausevisually you're identifiable. Then I think
the other point is that we're navigating thismulticultural world, right? And there's more
and more connectivity. You used to build aroad from A to B, from B to C, and eventually
(50:34):
you could get from A to C. And it's very verylinear, point A to point B. But with connectivity
now, you can literally draw a line from anypoint to any other point. And so where does
the responsibility lie? So we're navigatingthis very complex world. And sometimes we're
going to be the majority, right? We're goingto have the force of the majority, we're going
(50:54):
to be in the in-group in the in-tribe. Andwe don't have to think about things, because
we can just blend in with the masses. Andsometimes we're going to be part of the minority,
and we're going to face certain types of headwinds.And almost everyone experiences that, even
if you're a white Caucasian WASP in the US,like, they have inner voices too. And so everyone
(51:16):
is going to paint themselves as a victim sometimes.And so I think the question is “OK, how
do we have the dialogue?” Because what Iwas thinking earlier was that Justin, myself,
and Howie we have the benefit of each other,we can talk through these things. And we use
the show as self-therapy and self-reflection.OF: Yeah.
And we use the show as a collective identity, because we're not alone. And in a way you're
(51:41):
alone. I think it's like, how do we createthis positive, supportive, open framework?
Because it's really important to know thatyou're not alone. So I think it's like, then
how do we look forward, right? How do we createa support network and plan so that we can
be mentally healthy and happy about ourselves?OF: That's what I think we're both doing with
(52:03):
our projects, it is about putting that messageout there. And you do have the advantage of
having the three of you, and mine is muchmore solitary. But when I meet every guest,
I mean, I do get that energy. It's just notas intimate as what you can do over the course
of two years, day-in day-out meeting eachother. I think the idea of connectivity is
(52:24):
a tricky one, because that was the ideal ofwhat the internet would be, right? We would
all be connected. And then it would be thismarketplace of ideas where the best ideas
would come out. But the problem with connectivityis that we connect with what we already feel
is correct. And then we go into echo chambers,and we only are connecting with the ones who
agree with our own ideas. So you know, thatword is a bit triggering, because it's not
(52:48):
working, you know. It’s what it's what theworld should have been.
And we can send garbage down the network with ease now, which is a problem.
OF (52:55):
That's the problem. So all we can do, yes… I mean, the way forward is to do what
we're doing, you know, and to have open dialoguesand to put out stuff that helps to bridge
the misunderstandings that are from pointA to Z. Let's cure this, guys, the four of
us. OK, let's hold hands.HG: Hold hands. Sing a song.
We’re gonna solve this, we're gonna solve this.
AS (53:16):
Can I end with a quote? JY
Alright. The quote I wanted to share was from Thomas Jefferson, and he just said “How
much pain they have cost us, the evils whichhave never happened?”
JY (53:28):
Yeah, it's kind of almost similar to the idea of, nine out of ten of your concerns
are unfounded.AS: Exactly.
Right. Yeah, and one final point I do want to stress that maybe was lost in this
conversation, was that we like to be criticalof a lot of different places, wherever we
(53:49):
are. But at the same time, like, my pet peeveis like, where we are, we're living off of
the privileges of that place in that culture.OF: Yeah, I agree.
I want to be balanced to our approach, and looking and hearing from all different
perspectives, especially including yours Oscar.OF: You're right. You're both right, yeah.
(54:12):
It's something where it's nice to hear yousay it and articulate it, because it's something
which you're absolutely right. We are privilegedto be here in this point of time. It's a nice
place to end this conversation. And I do agreewith you.
AS (54:23):
I mean, this whole thing with pessimism, right? Like, I think internally, I hold a
lot of pessimism, my inner voice. You know,I have a very loud inner voice that's full
of pessimism. So when I hear pessimism outsideof me, I immediately recognise it. And my
optimistic voice fights it. And so while I'mpoor at fighting my inner voice and pessimism
(54:46):
inside, I'm a crusader against any kind ofpessimism that happens outside. And so I think
you'll find that some of the most pessimisticpeople, they come across really optimistic,
because they're trying to fight that fight.OF: I agree. And this is kind of the dynamic
that I love about your podcast, because Iwouldn't have the forum to bring out this
pessimism. Like, it's not something whichI talk about.
JY (55:07):
Yeah. OF
believe others do too. Because it is a forumthat you can bring out stuff that I would
never say on my own podcast. You know, andI wouldn't say this publicly elsewhere. And
that's thanks to you guys. So I want to sayonce again, thank you for what you do. Continue
with your optimistic podcast. I do appreciateit.
HG (55:24):
Thank you. JY
to you, sharing with you. Good luck on everything.Where can people find you, Oscar?
OF (55:31):
So the podcast is everywhere. You can find the website, the website actually has
transcripts.AS: Wow.
So if you're not good at English, you can follow.
HG (55:39):
That is great. I know a lot of our listeners like that.
OF (55:41):
It's hard to do. It takes time. JY
there's a lot of different stuff.OF: Yes, so I've tried to be creative in terms
of giving the most loyal people who listensome extra content, so you can go on something
called 爱发电 [Àifādiàn], where there'sa longer version of every episode.
JY (56:00):
Yes. OF
HG (56:02):
That’s great. JY
It was a pleasure.HG: Cheers.
OF (56:06):
Cheers. JY
AS (56:10):
Oh, wait, do we say who we are. OF
HG (56:14):
We always do that. OF
Why are you breaking tradition. Justin? OF
OF (56:20):
Ritual. Ritual is important to these guys. JY
AS (56:24):
I'm pretty optimistic today. HG
JY (56:27):
Peace. OF
out so badly. Oh my God. I think it’s thegin.
[Trailer]OF: You put all your ‘warts and all’ into
your podcast. Like, I know some of the worstthings about you, because of your podcast.
Aric SHANG (00:10):
Oh ****.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
But is it really Mosaic of China? Actuallyno, because as this is the final episode of
the year, I've decided to switch it up andput something special in your podcast feed
today. It's the audio of a chat from anotherShanghai-based English-language podcast called
(00:34):
The Honest Drink, hosted by Justin Yang, HowieGoh and Aric Shang. It's called The Honest
Drink because they make sure everyone is pliedwith alcohol during the recording, so the
resulting conversation is very uninhibited.The other part that I like about this show
is when the three hosts just talk among themselves,because they're all American Chinese guys
(00:54):
and it’s interesting to listen in on howthey see the world through this specific lens.
Mostly I agree 100% with what they say, othertimes I want to bash their heads together
for only seeing things through this lens.But they always do a great job of keeping
it real.
Let me also offer some more context, the recordingwas made a few weeks ago, just before I started
(01:15):
the mammoth task of recording the 30 new episodesfor Season 03 of Mosaic of China. So you'll
hear that I was stressed out about that. Atone point Aric says that he tries to keep
outwardly optimistic as a way of counteringhis more pessimistic inner voice. And of course,
the same can be said for me and for Mosaicof China, which has specifically been designed
(01:36):
to side-step negativity and to focus on people,culture and lifestyle. What you'll hear in
this episode is much more of that inner voicethat I don't usually share, which isn't just
because of the effort of producing this podcast,it's also to do with the crunch point that
many international people in China are facingright now. In COVID times, it has been incredibly
(01:58):
complicated to leave and come back to China,so after two years of playing 'wait and see',
many people are deciding to leave for good,including foreigners who have been here for
decades, even including some mainland Chinesewho are separated from loved ones overseas.
That's not to say that they dislike China,far from it, we've all been grateful to be
here. It's just that we are all having a tastewhat it meant to be émigrés in the past
(02:22):
- or indeed refugees in the present - whenleaving your home country meant that you don't
have the luxury of returning. Until now we'vealways had the privilege of having the best
of both worlds. But now, none of us know whetherwe're living in a COVID phase, or a COVID
era, so there are difficult choices to bemade. Having said that, difficult choices
(02:42):
are still choices, so we're still privilegedin that sense. And to end on an even more
optimistic note, as I speak today I have nowrecorded 18 of the new episodes, so I'm hopefully
on track to launch the new season in Springof next year.
Having offered my respect to Justin, Howieand Aric, I've also disrespected them because
(03:03):
I've edited the original audio by beepingout the worst of the swearing, and chopping
off about 30 minutes of the conversation.So if you want to hear the original, please
go and find episode #99 of The Honest Drinkpodcast wherever you're listening to this.
And while you're there, go ahead and subscribe.Here's wishing you all a great end to the
year, and I'll be back again with the nextcompilation episode from Season 02 in January.
(03:26):
[Main]Justin YANG: We got a fun one today. Our guest
is the host of the Mosaic of China podcast.It's a popular and wonderful podcast with
a diverse range of guests exploring the livesof people who are making their mark in China.
We share many laughs along the way. It wassuch a great time talking to our guest. So
without further ado, please welcome OscarFuchs.
JY (03:49):
Oh, 23 OF
(04:12):
it means it's good. OF
good, then don’t waste it on me. That'salso the issue.
JYL You’re too polite, Oscar. You’re toopolite.
OF (04:24):
I’m English. We're not really polite. We just use it as a weapon.
JY (04:28):
Here, make your own gin and tonic, however you'd like to make it.
OF (04:33):
Do you have any lime, by the way? JY
OK. JY
production that we’re running here?OF: Yeah man. A gin and tonic without lime.
All right.JY: No no wait, hold on. Let's do the whiskey
first.OF: OK.
JY (04:48):
Oscar, you say you hate whiskey? Is that right?
OF (04:51):
Oh are we already recording? Aric SHANG
JY (04:53):
Oh, we’re rolling. Howie GOH
OF (04:55):
Wait, what did I say until now? I have never been able to drink whiskey. I've tried.
It's one of those things where I know I shouldlike it. And everyone's a connoisseur with
whiskey. So I keep on trying to train myself.And each time I end up failing. So let’s
see if it works this time.AS: So what is it about it?
I can't tell you why. Because I quite like strong tastes.
HG (05:17):
重口味 [Zhòng kǒuwèi]. OF
JY (05:22):
Strong 口味 [kǒuwèi]! HG
can go a lot of ways.OF: Well, I don't know. Let's see what let's
see what happens.JY: Cheers.
HG (05:30):
Cheers to a shot of whiskey. OF
OF (05:35):
I mean, it's not bad. JY
[OF coughs]JY: There it is, there it is.
Oh dude. AS
JY (05:44):
Yeah exactly. OG
HG (05:47):
Feels good though, doesn’t it? JY
of a honey finish I liked.HG: Yeah, it's nice.
OF (05:52):
How would that rank for you guys? You're the connoisseurs here.
JY (05:55):
Well actually we're really not that knowledgable. AS
OF (06:00):
Beautiful. I feel slightly victimised. But thank you very much.
JY (06:05):
Make your drink. You can do a gin and tonic.
OF (06:08):
Thank you, I will. JY
AS (06:11):
I always like it when we go back to the roots of Honest Drink
JY (06:14):
What’s the roots? AS
we had a little bit of a ritual.JY: With the drink?
AS (06:21):
With the drink, bringing it out, what we're going to drink, tasting it a little
bit.JY: Yeah. All right. Well, cheers.
HG (06:31):
Good stuff. OF
JY (06:35):
Well Oscar, first of all, welcome to the show.
OF (06:39):
Thank you. I'm absolutely honoured to be here.
JY (06:42):
I'm so excited that you're here. You do amazing work with Mosaic of China.
OF (06:48):
Well, thank you. JY
I can get another podcaster onto the show.We kind of started off at the same time, right?
Right. JY
our podcasts, we started around the same time.OF: Yes. Around summer. 2019, right?
JY (07:03):
Yeah. OF
So it's really great to have you here to share this journey with you.
OF (07:08):
Totally. JY
we're kind of from the same tribe as podcasters.And I really appreciate that.
Oh I feel it, man. I am so excited. And maybe I speak for your listeners too. Because
just being here - in the exalted room whereyou do your podcast - it's like being in the
room with friends that I've known for a longtime, which I think is the way that you've
(07:30):
been able to produce your podcast, which I'msupremely jealous of.
JY (07:34):
The first time I met you, I feel like there was this mutual respect. Like, podcasts
in Shanghai, the bar was Mosaic of China.OF: Oh, dude.
Yeah, that's the one I knew, I heard of first.
OF (07:45):
Oh, OK. JY
around for a really long time. So to me, itwas like Mosaic of China was kind of like
the bar set here locally, in terms of podcasting.OF: Well, that's very kind. I think it's a
function of knowing how to make myself lookbigger than I actually am. I think when I
was actually in business, that was part ofwhat we did as well. Like, you are a small
(08:07):
minnow, but you learn the tricks of how tomake yourself look like the big shark.
JY (08:11):
You swim like a big shark. OF
part of my delusion, in fact.JY: Well is it kind of like the same philosophy
as ‘fake it until you make it’?OF: It is, sort of. But then you can't fake
it to the extent that there's there's nothingunderneath, you're just some soufflé. There
has to be some substance. So you can't saysomething which you're not. But you can project
an image that's larger than your actual size,that’s what I'm going for. But again, I
(08:36):
don't think I do a good job of that. I thinkyou guys are killing it. Like, I think you
have a lot more support than I have. And youwere under the radar for me, because I spent
most of my time in my cave, just doing myproject. And then when I found out about you
guys, I was like “OK, what the hell is thisabout? Let me listen to a few of these things”.
And I got into it, despite myself. Despitemyself, I really got into your podcast. And
(09:00):
I’m not supposed to like your podcast. Ithink you and I talked about this when we
met. Like, on the surface, I do not like theidea of your podcast. It's an hour and a half
long, it's too **** long. There's three dudestalking about **** in a room drinking bloody
whiskey, I can't drink whiskey either. I'mlike “I don't know why these guys are popular,
(09:23):
but I'll dip into a few episodes.” And Iwas hooked. So I know exactly the feeling
of your listeners. Because for me, just feelingthe energy of your conversations, I felt the
realness there. And that was what, I think,I was jealous of. Because I think a lot about
my podcast, it's of course real. But it'sa lot more measured. It's a lot more…
(09:44):
Controlled. OF
which I like. I like having a format to playwith. And then you having this freestyle,
no-holds-barred chat. It works. And actuallyit's at the heart of what podcasting should
be about. So when I listen to you, I feellike “Ah, that’s what I miss in my podcast”.
(10:06):
It's that energy that you bring every singletime. And I'm not talking about myself, I'm
actually talking with the listener in mind.I'm sure people out there are nodding, going
"I wish I was in that room talking with theguys too”. Because I feel like, in every
conversation you've had, I would’ve likedto have been in that room saying “Oh, yeah,
yeah. And my point is this. My point is that.”So, yeah, I'm not sure what I do lends itself
(10:27):
to the same informal way that people outsidecan be part of the actual experience.
But the most surprising thing after having met you was that you are such a bright personality.
Right? Like, you are so dynamic, there’sso much to you, that I honestly - like, I'm
(10:49):
going to tell you straight to your face - Ifeel like it doesn't come out in your podcast,
right?OF: Right.
And you give too much ground, I feel, to your guests.
OF (10:57):
Yeah. JY
number one. But I feel like there’s so muchyou can add, just knowing you, meeting you
in person, and seeing this personality. Ifeel like there's so much charisma you can
still add to your show, that probably yourlisteners don't know unless they've met you.
Right. I mean, I can't agree with that, because I don't know how to take that compliment.
(11:18):
But yeah, I mean, it is what I've been strugglingwith. And this is why I'm keen to talk to
you today, actually. Because I’m in theprocess now where I'm in the middle of two
seasons. So I'm producing my next season now.And I have this space to re-think “Well,
how do I approach the next season? In whatway do I carry on doing? And in what way do
I slightly change things?" So yeah, this conversation’shappening at the right time? To what extent
(11:42):
should I inject more from myself? But thealternate thing is, to me it's an exercise
in humility, in some way. Because I do havequite a healthy ego. And that's not something
I particularly like putting out there. Whichis why I like you guys, because you put all
your ‘warts and all’ into your podcast.Like, I know some of the worst things about
(12:05):
you, because of your podcast.AS: Oh ****.
HG (12:06):
That’s awesome. OF
vulnerability that I don't think I quite havethe balls to put out, at the moment. Everything
I do is authentic. But, you know, we're allin some ways performative, right? You have
a work persona, you have a persona which youuse with friends. Like, we all know how to
act differently in different situations. Andso, for me, I did think very carefully about
(12:30):
what is the side of me that I will put out,and what I wouldn't. So that's what I think
I need to recalibrate, you know. And findingyour podcast, getting into it, being reminded
about what podcasting is all about, and meetingyou guys, all of that is part of the same
process. We can learn from each other. It'snot about competing, like my podcast versus
(12:52):
your podcast. I love your podcast, and I'mproud of mine. It's not a zero sum game, right?
JY (12:56):
Yeah. OF
And it was a very… You know, you were talking about your first reaction, when you
first came across us, before you started listeningto us. And to be honest, it was a similar
reaction on my end. In terms of, like, thereis that natural competitiveness, I guess.
Especially when we're in a space, and in aplace, where It's very niche, right? And so
(13:22):
every other podcast that comes out, there’sa little bit of competitiveness. Like all
of a sudden, “Who's this guy? Who's thisnew kid on the block?”
OF (13:29):
Yeah. JY
grateful for having met you, and that we canshare this and we can work together. And we
can even help each other. Like, I honestlydon't see you as a competition right now.
I see you as a resource. And a help.OF: Awesome, me too. Yeah.
JY (13:46):
You know, and an inspiration in many ways. OF
heard, I'm not faking that myself. And yeah,I mean, I've met other podcasters, where I
thought I'd have the same conversation. Wemeet for a drink, and then the other side
just shuts down, becomes hostile. And I'mlike “What the hell's the point of that?”
I just don't understand that. And it's notlike I'm not competitive either, like I said.
(14:08):
They don't want to share a trade secrets. OF
And I'm like “Oh, which studio do you use?”“I'm not telling you.”
Woah. I feel like we were sharing everything the first time we met.
OF (14:17):
Totally. I mean, we’d had a couple of cocktails too. But no, I mean, that's the
spirit in which I reached out to you. Like,I had heard about your podcast, I reached
out to all three of you separately. And I'vegot to say that's where your characters all
came out. And I'm looking at you, Aric. Becausenow it's time to talk about Aric, because…
JY (14:36):
Because, let's bring some context. When we first met, it was just me and Howie, this
is your first time actually meeting Aric.OF: It is. And it's a pleasure. And we've
just had a brief introduction for ten minutes.Out of the three of you, you were the most
guarded when I reached out to you. So I thinkit was Howie first I reached out to, it was
like “Hey Howie, I heard your podcast. I'malso a podcaster, we should meet up. You know,
(14:56):
we're doing the same thing. Great to knowwhat you're doing.” Justin, it was a bit
later, but a similar story. And then Aric,I reached out to you. And you were funny,
because your reply… I wish I rememberedit, but it was like, “Oh. Hi. Oh, you like
the podcast? What's your three favourite episodesfrom The Honest Drink?”
That’s so him. OF
(15:20):
appreciated it, because I could have justbeen blowing smoke up your ass. Like “What
does this guy want?” you know? And you werelike “OK, you said that you like it? Prove
it”. I was like “OK, you are definitelyyourself in the podcast.” Because that's
the side that I relate to mostHB: Yeah, you were saying that you relate
to him the most.OF: Oh yeah.
HB (15:38):
You guys are kindred spirits. OF
AS (15:41):
A couple of funny things. No, I could talk all day as well. We've developed a certain
chemistry and we're also trying to calibrateas well. I think we have a great thing. Like,
we definitely really enjoy doing this. Andwe've had our ups and downs. And it's been
a wild ride for a couple of years. And ourfeelings about the show, about each other,
(16:08):
have evolved over time as well. I mean, reallyups and downs. Like I mean, 180 degrees. Like,
the first batch of episodes, we didn't reallyknow what we were getting into. And we were
trying to find our footing. Recently, as westart that same thought process - right, because
we're in about the same part of our journey- It’s like “OK, well, what do we like
(16:30):
about this? What do other people like aboutthis? Where do we get our energy?” And spending
so much time together, doing something together,inevitably there's going to be much more friction.
OF (16:40):
OK, you're doing this recalibration. So why are you doing this podcast? Have you figured
that out?AS: Yeah. Once people know you have a podcast,
and once you start doing a podcast, inevitablyconversations with people in your community
will come up about the podcast. Because peoplewill be like “Oh, you have a podcast? What's
it about?”OF: Wait, let me let me interrupt you right
(17:00):
there. Are you at the point now where youcan say “I'm a podcaster” or “I have
a podcast” without feeling like you're acomplete wanker?
AS (17:08):
Yeah, we have big egos. Like… OF
and they say “Oh, I've got a podcast.”Like immediately, I would run away. Like “Oh,
you're that person".JY: Yeah.
OF (17:18):
That’s one wanker in every party, and I'm that wanker now.
AS (17:22):
I appreciate your view on that. And I suppose this goes back to some of your earlier
very complimentary thoughts. It’s that theshow is a metaphor for life, the show’s
a journey that shows a way that we're goingto improve as human beings.
OF (17:37):
Please don’t improve. I like your weaknesses. AS
JY (17:42):
I think that's what the thing is about the show, right?
OF (17:44):
Yeah. JY
honesty is a very tough… It's tough. Andit's scary. To be honest, we don't always
achieve that. We're not always successfulwith that, even on our show. But I think for
me, the driving force behind - at least, I'llspeak for myself - behind doing this podcast
(18:07):
is the constant attempt to achieve that honesty.OF: Hmm.
JY (18:11):
Whether we fail or succeed, hey. But at least we're attempting - and we're genuinely
attempting - to do that, no matter what kindof conversation we're having. And that to
me - combined with a genuine curiosity - isalways kind of like my North Star. Whenever
(18:32):
I'm thinking like, “Oh, what is the showabout for me?”
HG (18:35):
I'm here for the alcohol. So I'm just here to drink. I don't know. But I mean, one
thing that I've always kept harping on about,and I always still bring up, is our backgrounds.
Of being American, but also Chinese, and thecomplexity of having both sides.
OF (18:53):
Yeah. HG
we have conversations, I'm always constantlytrying to think from that perspective. What
makes us different from everybody else? Imean, you want to talk about complexity to
life, I’m sure there are thousands of podcastsout there to talk about the complexity of
life. You want to talk about curiosity andstuff like that, there are thousands of podcasts
that talk about curiosity. But I can't namemany podcasts that come from our perspective,
(19:17):
combining all that.OF: Totally. Yeah, I think that's it. That's
it, in a nutshell. I think it combines thecontent, and you guys's identity. Because
that’s the two circles of the Venn diagramwhich you inhabit. I mean, I'm also conscious
of that, because I'm a white dude in Asia.And I've got a podcast called Mosaic of China.
So I've got to be very careful with the identityside when I do my podcast. I try and keep
(19:41):
my guests to a minimal when it comes to otherwhite guys, because it’s not a good look
to have two white guys talking about China.And that's another thing where actually you
have an inbuilt advantage, just with youridentities. Where you can talk to anyone - you
can have a whole parade of white guys in - andyou still are diverse because of you three.
(20:02):
Whereas I'm always conscious of that.JY: Interesting.
Yeah, totally, totally. Part of my project is to have as diverse a slate of guests as
possible.JY: So do you have like a white guy quota?
In terms of, it’s kinda like a China filmquota?
I basically do. I have a ‘Diversity Audit’, I call it. Because I can look at
(20:22):
the whole season. So I do seasons of 30 episodes.And it's on purpose, so that I can look at
that season, and I can say “OK, how manyChinese people do I have?” I try and get
usually 10 out of 30 to be mainland Chinese.And then out of the remaining 20, how do I
split that in terms of nationality? Then Itake a look at it again, and I go “OK, that's
(20:46):
just the identity side. What about what itis that they do?” So I look and say “OK,
how many do I have from the world of business?How many from arts, how many from science,
how many from academia?” And I make surethat that diversity is pretty well looked
after. And then male/female, I have 50% male,50% female, that's something which I will
not negotiate on. So if you look at my podcasts,it’s literally boy, girl, boy, girl, boy,
(21:10):
girl. And then it comes down to LGBT as well,I have LGBT representation. You wouldn't know
it to listen to it, but one in five of myguests are LGBT, or queer in some way. We
don't talk about it, it’s not an issue.JY: It's not the focus, right?
It’s not the focus. But it's an underlying ethos in terms of what I'm doing, just to
(21:30):
kind of riff off what you just said aboutyour podcast. it's about celebrating the diversity
of the human experience, as well as the factthat there is a universality. It's not about
actually saying “Oh, you're different”.It's about saying “You're different. And
we're all the same”. I can enjoy the differences,and I can poke at the differences. And that's
(21:51):
interesting. But ultimately, the human experienceis exactly the same. And it doesn't have to
be Mosaic of China, it could be a Mosaic ofMozambique, and it would be the exact same
experience. Yeah.JY: I love that. So, your turn to answer the
question, Oscar.OF: You see, guys, I managed to actually interview
you guys on your show.JY: You flipped the tables for a moment.
It’s all a deflection tactic, because I don't have the answer either.
JY (22:14):
Yeah. OF
yours. I started my podcast after I'd soldmy company. So I had a headhunting company
for 10 or 11 years, I managed to sell my entireshare without being needed to stay with the
company beyond the sale. Which was quite rare,to actually be able to walk away. And it happened
(22:38):
at a time that I wasn't expecting it. AndI never really had a Plan B. Like “OK, I've
sold my company now.” If I was a true entrepreneur,I would have set up another company. But I
realised “No, I don't want to do that. Infact, I'm quite allergic to the entire endeavour.”
So there was a bit of the "What do I wantto do that makes me happy. But what also can
(22:59):
I do that keeps me relevant”. That was theego side. And it's not just the ego, it's
also what I enjoy. Which is to be in the trafficof ideas. I think that's what I liked about
being a headhunter. And I specifically headhuntedHeads of HR. So that always meant that I could
(23:20):
meet somebody from the tech sector one meeting,it could be pharmaceuticals the next meeting,
it could be artistic the next one. So I wasalways kept curious during my 10/11 years
as a headhunter. And I wanted to somehow havesomething that could emulate that without
the trappings of headhunting which I did notlike. And there were quite a few at that stage,
I mean I was just burnt out. It's a long wayof answering that question. You know, I don't
(23:44):
want it to become something which I don'thave control of. You know, something where
it's a monster which then I have to just keepon feeding, somehow. And I know you guys go
through this, right? Like “Oh ****, I’vegot another episode coming up. We've got no
guest, we've got nothing planned, like whatthe hell do we do?” And suddenly is like
“Wait, this is supposed to be fun. Like,why am I putting pressure on myself?” So
I'm in that stage right this very moment,when you're interviewing me. This is probably
(24:09):
why it's on my mind. Because I've got a lotgoing on right now, which has started to stress
me out. And so now I'm thinking “What thehell am I doing? Why am I stressing myself
out?" I've got it into my head that I willdo a big tour of China, and interview all
the people who are coming up in the next seasonwho are outside of Shanghai. I want to interview
(24:29):
them all in person.JY: On the road?
OF (24:31):
On the road, face to face. JY
That gives me a different perspective of China. It's not meant to be ‘Mosaic of
Shanghai’.JY: Yeah.
And then… here’s where it gets really wonky. Because if you have two good ideas,
sometimes they can clash, and it becomes onebig stupid **** idea. And that's kind of what's
happened now. Because I had another idea.So in my podcast, I have a second part of
(24:56):
every interview where I ask everyone the sameten questions. So there's a freestyle part
at the beginning. And then there's a formulaicpart in the second half.
JY (25:04):
Yeah, like the Rapid Round. OF
you get a very different style in those twoparts. And then you can compare how thirty
different people in the season answer thesame question, from their different backgrounds,
different perspectives. And that's great tocompare. I had the idea “Oh, you know what,
I could try and get sponsors for those tenquestions.” So the question on “What's
(25:27):
your favourite destination in China,” Icould have a travel agent sponsor that question
and say “Question 2 - brought to you by‘blah, blah, blah’- is…” And so that
was a great idea. But now, I've got threedays before I start the bloody interviews.
And so I was writing a proposal about sponsorship- which I've never done - and reaching out
(25:48):
to people saying “Hey, what about this foran idea?” With no proven track record, and
stressing myself out like an idiot. When Igo to my first interview, what do I say? Do
I actually have to ask two different versionsof the questions? One if I get this sponsor,
one if I don’t get this sponsor? What thehell am I gonna do? And I haven't worked it
out. And I'm just sat there going, “Thisis a weekend, and I'm stressed out sending
(26:09):
proposals out. Why am I doing that?” Anda part of that is the vestigial business side
of me, which means I can't help but createsomething out of this project. And I'm thinking
“Why am I doing that? That's not why I started”.And yet I need it almost as a kind of ‘proof
of concept.’ That, if I can get more buy-in,then it proves the concept more to me. And
(26:34):
I'm thinking “Is that why I'm doing it?”JY: Does that go back to your ego? Is that
the ego speaking?OF: I think it is. But it's also… I’ll
totally you what it also is. It is becauseI'm proud of the content, and I need to find,
I need to find creative ways for people toamplify my content.
Yes. OF
me. You know, when I, when I lie in bed andquestion myself, like “Why am I doing it?”
I hope it's that latter explanation, and notso much the ego side.
(26:56):
Yeah. OF
things.JY: Sounds like… Don’t take this the wrong
way. It sounds like it's really tough beingyou, in the sense that there's this duality
to you.OF: Yes.
And they're conflicting, and they're constantly bumping up against each other. Because everything
(27:19):
- that you're saying that brings you stressand pressure now - was all brought on by yourself,
seeking them out.OF: Mm hmm. Totally.
So it's this constant tug of war. OF
before your eyes.JY: I was gonna bring that up.
OF (27:36):
Oh, I’m a walking mid-life crisis. I mean, OK, let me tell you what this is. Because
when I talked to you before about when youmeet somebody at a party, and are you confident
to say that you have a podcast without feelingthat you are a wanker, right? Imagine if,
when you meet somebody at a party, and theanswer is “I’m retired”. Like, that's
(27:59):
the stuff that I'm dealing with, because thatactually is my status. I've sold my company,
and I'm basically not going to work again.I'm retired. And when you meet somebody at
a party, and they said they're retired, Imean, “Why are you here? You might as well
just be dead. What relevance do you have?”You know? So I think going to absolute irrelevant
(28:20):
obscurity is, to me, a scary chasm to lookinto. And I think that is the conflict, the
conflict is I have this amazing luxury ofdoing what I want. And at the same time, I
want to remain relevant.JY: And still have value to society.
It’s the value to society, yeah. It's kind of “Why are we doing anything?” When
(28:42):
you are not defined by what you do, then actually,who are you?
JY (28:45):
Yeah. OF
have time to ask yourself while you're busyworking, none of you have really done that,
I’m sure. You are what you're doing, andyou’re a podcaster on top, you have multiple
identities.HG: I can guarantee like, if the average person
would come up to you - who’s a worker, right?- he’ll come to you, like “Oh my god,
I'm so jealous of you. You're retired? I mean,you have no worries, right?”
OF (29:05):
I mean, I have to accept that. I mean, of course, I've created all the bull**** myself.
Intrinsically, you’re absolutely right.And I have to keep on saying that. I have
to keep on saying that. But I'm a total idiot.And I won't take that as the gift that it
is. I will overcomplicate things, in a waythat is exactly why I relate to Aric. Because
(29:26):
Aric is - out of the three of you - the leasthappy-go-lucky. You're the person who over-thinks,
over-questions. And that's why I really feelfor you, because I'm sure if you were in my
position, you'd be just as gnarled up as Iam.
HG (29:38):
I feel like we should definitely bring that up, because Aric was not there when we
were together talking. And you did say that,like you felt this relationship with Aric.
And you brought up your Excel, and you werelike “I wish I could show Aric the Excel
that I made”.OF: Oh, I should’ve brought it.
JY (29:56):
Aric can pull out many Excels right now. OF
with the number of worksheets I have for thepodcast. The workflows, and they're all colour-coded…
Oh my god, they're beautiful.JY: Aric’s getting competitive now, he's
like thinking “You don't have more thanme, Oscar.”
OF (30:09):
Oh. AS
one is like, your inner voice is really loud.Just like mine is, just like all of us. But
your inner voice is really, really loud. It'stelling you all these things. And sometimes
it's telling you some great things. like “OhOscar, you're great”. And then sometimes
your inner voice is telling you “You'renot good enough. You're not doing enough,
(30:33):
what you're doing is not enough.” And thiswhole notion of being relevant, it's almost
like your inner voice is reflecting your owninsecurities. Like, that other person actually
doesn't give a ****, potentially right? Butyou're like “Oh, I'm not relevant to myself,”
almost. It's not that other person, right?At what point did achieving things and being
(30:57):
relevant… When did that start matteringto you? Because I could pinpoint when it started
mattering to me. I mean, it was like fiveyears old, or six years old. So at what point
did it matter to you?OF: The status of being a successful business
owner was quite important. For the reasonsthat Justin, you pointed out right at the
beginning of our conversation. Which is, Iam a silly, ridiculous person.
JY (31:21):
I didn't say all those things. OF
my own views.JY: That’s the way you took it.
OF (31:28):
I’m basically the person who will not take anything seriously. And so I enjoyed
the juxtaposition of being that person andthen somebody later on saying “Oh, but he
owns his own business. And is successful.”And I quite enjoyed that status part, because
it offset my ridiculousness. The silliness,which I just can't help projecting.
AS (31:48):
Why do you feel like you need that validation? Was there some point where you were you were
being silly, where it wasn't appropriate forthe moment?
OF (31:56):
Oh totally. AS
Because I think I'm good at subverting the expectation. So I quite like being silly
in a business context, where the expectationis that you're going to do a serious talk
here. Like you're a presenter at this conference,and you're going to make a joke about poo?
Everyone laughs, because it's subverting expectations.AS: Yeah. Were you the class clown?
(32:17):
I wasn't the class clown. No, no, no, not at all.
JY (32:19):
But you didn’t want to conform. Like, you're not for conformity.
OF (32:23):
I'm quite a conformist. YJ
It's a total paradox. I'm a conformist trapped in a non-conformist body.
JY (32:33):
It's like Jekyll and Hyde with you. HG
OF (32:37):
But that's why this project, it really it speaks to what I am. And there is a lot
of complexity behind it, absolutely.HG: Yeah, we were quite impressed when you
were explaining how you organise your showsand, and each season, you know, based off
of all the different tabs and etc, etc. Imean, that just shows that it's actually the
(32:59):
‘Mosaic of Oscar’, you know. It’s notthe Mosaic of China.
JY (33:02):
No. HG
got a lot going on here.OF: It’s very specifically curated, yes.
Yeah. OF
what I'm doing, it is that. I am actuallyquite passionate about showing people that
diversity is a good thing.JY: Yeah.
OF (33:21):
You know what I mean? JY
It has to fit the DNA of what you're all about.OF: Do you know what, so ‘Mosaic’ wasn't
the first name that I came up with.JY: Oh well what was it, what was the first
name?OF: I had a really good idea, but it ended
up being racist.HG: Oh, you’ve got to share it now.
JY (33:36):
Yeah, what’s this? OF
right?JY: Yeah.
OF (33:41):
The idea is that I whisper something into your ear.
JY (33:43):
Yeah. OF
at the end will say something, and it willend up having been completely different to
what was first said, right? Everyone's nodding.JY: Yeah.
OF (33:52):
In England, that is called ‘Chinese Whispers’.
HG (33:54):
Oh. JY
OF (33:57):
Well, it comes back from, I think, when we were doing the Opium Wars. This is the
British, right? And it was in the 清 [Qīng]Empire, when the 清 [Qīng] Empire was in
disarray. And it was, like, how the mandarinsof the Qing Empire would communicate, and
they would get garbled up, from one mandarinto the other mandarin. And so it was, you
know how when you're at war - or when you’rejust generally at loggerheads - you would
(34:22):
attribute bad qualities…JY: You try to dehumanise the other people.
Or just, if there's a bad thing, you would attribute it to your enemy, right?
AS (34:28):
Right because if you were practising understanding of the other culture, and trying to understand
their perspective, then you probably wouldn'tbe in a war. The fact that you’re in a war
is because you think that these people arehopeless.
OF (34:44):
Oh, no, it’s… I mean, look at Trump, ‘The China Virus’, it's the same, it's
been going on since Voltaire, this is somethingwhich is not new. And not just China, it's
the West and the East, we always use the otherside as a foil as to what we either want to
do, or what you'd rather avoid. When you lookat it from the bigger context, China versus
(35:05):
the West. I mean, in America, I think youhave something called ‘a Chinese Fire Drill’?
JY (35:10):
Oh, is it called the ‘Chinese Fire Drill?’ HG
OF (35:14):
Exactly. It's the same racist trope, where “Oh, the Chinese are panicking, and going
round and round.” It's the same thing. Anyway.So that's a little bit of a detour. But that's
why in the end, I was like “Maybe I shouldn'tcall it 'Chinese Whispers’”.
JY (35:26):
That’s funny. OF
Well, that saved you, you did the research. Imagine if you didn't do the research, and
today we're talking to Oscar from ‘ChineseWhispers’
HG (35:33):
‘Chinese Whispers’ with the Season 2, ‘Chinese Fire Drill’.
OF (35:36):
God. AS
Honest drink is so racist. They invite racistpeople on the show, etc, etc.”
Yes, I sidestepped that one. Yeah. JY
to unpack with you. You were talking beforeabout like the midlife crisis. And this is…
You know, some of our earliest episodes revolvedaround this issue, because this is kind of
(36:00):
the genesis…HG: That was our catalyst.
JY (36:01):
So I just find that really fascinating. And I'm wondering, from your standpoint, would
you classify your crisis as a struggle with…You know, we talked about ego, but would it
be maybe down to your identity? Because you'retalking about, like, who you are in these
(36:21):
dualities, these split sides you have. Wouldyou boil all that down simply to a sense of
identity?OF: I mean, again, we're in a period where
I'm stressed out. I've stressed myself out.So I don't know how I would answer this question
in a different time. But right now, the timingis such that I'm stuck in China for two years.
(36:44):
And I wonder to what extent that is the underlyingreason why I am really going crazy. Because
I've lived in Asia now for 18 years. And untilnow, it's always been a plus. Whatever my
baseline is, me living in Asia adds somethingto it. It's just always been an augmentation
(37:07):
of my ideas, the things that otherwise I wouldn'tthink about. I can look at Europe, I can look
at the States from an inside/outside perspectivethat I've always enjoyed. In a way that I
know that if I was still in my day job inLondon, I wouldn't really have the wherewithal
- I wouldn't have the tools - to even knowhow to question my own culture. Now that I
(37:29):
have not been able to set foot outside ofChina for one day in two years, for the first
time I feel like it's becoming a minus. It'sa weird thing that I can't articulate. I've
just started to think of it in these termsrecently.
Can you put your finger on it, in terms of what it might be?
OF (37:46):
it's a pressure valve that needs to be released, for me. When I've lived in Asia,
we have thought of it as a right, almost,that every three or four months we can go
to a different place, reset, and then lookforward to coming home to China. I would even
say it in those terms. Or ‘home’ to ifI lived in Hong Kong, or when I was in Singapore,
(38:08):
or when I was in Japan. I’m coming home,and I'm looking forward to my home, and my
life in this country. I never, never use theword ‘expat’. There's no distinction between
me and another economic migrant, I am a justa migrant, I've chosen to be here for economic
reasons. This is my home. Without that pressurevalve being released, the negativity of being
(38:29):
in any strong culture - and China is a strongculture, especially right now - is I think
building up. Which is, I think, the main reasonwhy I'm not just skipping down the road, you
know, happy go lucky. And you've talked aboutthis on the podcast, too, because we are in
the world of content production. And thatputs me in a situation where I'm responsible
(38:52):
for putting things out into the world. Andmy mindset is not in the same place that it
was two years ago. So perhaps that's what'smaking me question, like “What am I doing?”
This is what a midlife crisis is. It's “Whatam I doing? Why am I doing it?” Right?
JY (39:06):
Well, maybe you're just getting a little bit of cabin fever.
OF (39:08):
Yeah, it's not just cabin fever. I mean, you're right, I don't want to talk over you.
It's more than just that, because it's tiedin with what I'm doing day in, day out. Which
is presenting this case for understanding,cross-cultural communication, and fun. At
a time when perhaps I'm not entirely havingthe most fun, you know. That’s something
(39:32):
which I don't think I can change. I love beingin China, and I love escaping China. And when
one of those outlets is not open to me, thenI feel that this is the first time in 18 years
that I feel like I'm missing out on not beingelsewhere in the world right now. So I'm just
at a crunch point.JY: Well, how has being a Brit - and having
(39:54):
the experiences, and spending the time youhave in China, and seeing it as a home - how
has your perspective changed over time, youfeel?
So this is going back to identity. So you said “being a Brit”, I am a British
(40:15):
citizen, but my family were refugees fromthe Czech and Slovak Republics, or ‘Czechoslovakia’
as it was in ’68. We’re also Jewish, sothat's part of my identity. I'm gay. All of
these parts of my identity, they mean thatI never really feel like I'm an insider. I
(40:35):
mean, I've never really been ‘the Brit’.I've been the weird Brit with a name that
sounds weird. I mean, my name is not English.So I've never really felt like I've changed.
When I've been here, I've been able to skirtabove mainstream society when it suits me,
(40:55):
or delve into some kind of mainstream societywhen it suits me. That's kind of how I've
lived my life anywhere in the world. WhichI guess is why, you know, I am this ‘diversity
person’. I mean, it's just part of who Iam. And at the same time, I’ve created this
identity of being ‘the China guy’, right?HG: Yeah.
JY (41:16):
Yeah, I think the reason why I asked my question is because, previously on shows we've
discussed our identities as Asian Americansliving here, sometimes feeling lost in between
both sides. But you being in Asia for 18 years- to generalise, being ‘a white guy', right?
(41:39):
- how do you…HG: Being a racist…
OF (41:42):
Being a racist white guy, yeah. Come on, give me my full title.
JY (41:49):
But just like finding that identity, being here for 18 years.
OF (41:53):
Yeah. JY
group of family, friends from past and now.You know, where do you sit now? Because of
the recent climate?OF: Yeah. I mean, it's something where maybe
I have a different experience to you.JY: Yeah.
You know, in one of my episodes - it was the finale of Season 02 - I talked with somebody
(42:15):
who had transitioned. We’re talking aboutgender. And that was a fascinating story,
in a way that made me think about my experience.Because the thing about people who have transitioned
- and it's a controversial topic, but - isthe word ‘passing’. So if you can pass
as the gender which you feel, then that allowsyou to get through life without coming under
(42:40):
too much external pressure. That's what passingmeans. So if someone who has transitioned
- or is in the process of transitioning - ifthey ‘pass’ for the gender that they feel,
then they are in a privileged position.AS: Like Thomas Jefferson's children with
Sally Hemings. There were a couple of themthat could ‘pass’ as white men.
That's it. So there's a racial version of it, there’s a gender version of it, all
(43:03):
kinds of things manifested in different ways.AS: People will… You can, if you decide
to act that way, you can ‘pass’ and beconsidered by someone else as part of that
tribe.OF: Right.
HG (43:15):
It's legitimacy, that’s all it is. AS
OF (43:16):
It is. And then all of this is to talk about you guys. In China, you can ‘pass’.
So you have a lot more flexibility. Becausewhen you want to, you can ‘pass’ as a
Chinese person. Whereas I'm a walking advertfor who I am. And I think that's a different
aspect that maybe - you know, because youare all American Asians - that's the diversity
aspect that you might lack in your perspectivesof living in China. Now, it's not a terrible
(43:42):
experience to live in China as a white person.It’s fine. But you do understand the micro-aggressions.
You do understand that. I mean, let me putit this way. If I ever got involved in a situation
where the police were involved, there is noway I would imagine the police would be on
my side. Like “I'm in trouble here”. WhichI think a Chinese person listening to that
(44:08):
would go “What do you mean? The police,they're here just to be safe. What are you
talking about? You're this aggressive whiteperson, whatever.” In exactly the same way
that a black person in America would feelabout the police. It gives you this perspective,
which you would never have had. And just theway that… OK, let's say it was a year ago
now. I was in 丽江 [Lìjiāng] airport.And it was post-COVID. And there was this
(44:30):
table set up. And they were pointing to everyonewho did not look Chinese to come and sign
extra paperwork. I was with an Asian American,but I was the one who had to go and sign the
extra stuff. It's nothing. Like, I had towalk through 静安 [Jìng'ān] Park. I went
all the way through 静安 [Jìng'ān] Parkbefore the guard came and dragged me back
all the way to the front. I was almost atthe end, but he dragged me all the way to
(44:53):
the front. He was like “No, you have toget out of the park". Tiny things like that
affect your experience. Where it's not lifethreatening - in other parts of the world,
it could be life threatening - but I thinkthat's where I would say to your answer about
my identity in China. It's absolutely fine,I have a privileged existence here. But I
(45:15):
just get the strong sense - no matter whereI go in China - that China’s for the Chinese,
right now. I don't want to bash on China forthis one aspect, and these tiny little things
that have happened in two years. Because Istill love being in China. But yeah, it's
palpable. And especially without this escape,that's what starts to build up.
JY (45:37):
Well it feels like it's intensifying, given the political climate.
OF (45:40):
Totally, yeah. HG
JY (45:44):
Yeah, we had a whole conversation… HG
it. But I’ll use myself as an example, asan Asian American holding a US passport. I'm
already feeling some of the… Like, whenpeople find out that I am American, there's
already this little bit of like, you know“Hmm, should we work together?” You know
(46:07):
what I mean? Like, that kind of feeling, thisunderlying prejudice, almost. And even being
Chinese, looking ethnically Chinese. As ajoke I was saying, like… Because on my bio
- I’m a director, I have to send out mybio, you know, to get jobs and stuff like
that - it clearly states in the first line,I'm born in America etc. etc. It's like “Should
(46:30):
I take that out?” You know what I mean?OF: Yeah.
HG (46:33):
Maybe I should take it out. Because these days, the climate, it's a lot more sensitive.
You know, being an American. Especially asan American. Australian, American, UK.
OF (46:42):
Yeah. AS
And this is a self-erasure. When people talk about erasure, that’s exactly what
you're doing. You’re literally erasing youridentity, to be able to ‘pass’. It's not
a comfortable decision. But of course, there'sno black and white. I think, in every interaction,
we are making very quick decisions based on“OK, to what extent do I reveal that part
(47:03):
of my identity or not,” right?JY: And this ties into like… You gave me
a new perspective, talking to you. And I neverreally realised it before. But when you were
talking about your identity, when I calledyou a Brit, and you're like “Well I’m
many other things including a Brit, but I'mJewish, I'm gay. I'm a lot of things”. And
(47:26):
it struck me - and it was a revelation tome - because we've talked about the idea of
Third Culture, right. And from our personalexperiences, you know, we've talked before
about this feeling of thinking or feelinglike we are Third Culture kids…
Yeah. JY
living in China, and we don't feel like weare fully 100% accepted in either place. And
(47:47):
that puts us in this kind of Third Culturespace. Or we feel like maybe we're a little
lost, we don't know what home is necessarily.And when you were talking about your own identity,
I feel like that is just even more dynamicof a situation.
Yeah. JY
(48:09):
with. And so how do you deal with this feelingof identity, a feeling of belonging, a feeling
of like what your tribe is, what your homeis? All that comes into play, and I can’t
really imagine like how it feels for you.OF: You’re right. When I listened to your
podcast - going back to the whole podcastconversation - you say ‘Third Culture’,
(48:32):
I would call your perspective, quite binary.You are China versus America, which is great.
But when you say that, and then you you talkin terms of ‘West versus East’, that's
when I think, “Is this West versus East?This is just China/US”. I appreciate it
when you say “China versus US”, whichare your two perspectives. But I've lived
(48:54):
in four different places in Asia. Everythingis nuanced, right?
JY (48:58):
Yeah. OF
one way it's a gift, because I can look atthings from 13 different angles. In a way
that that's my superpower, actually. And ofcourse, the same superpower is a big weakness.
Because, yeah, I can never relate to peoplein a way that allows me to say “Look, I
(49:19):
am your people, so listen to me. This is whatwe should all be thinking.” Because no one
really relates in the same way. I'm a European,from Eastern Europe and the UK. I've lived
in Germany. I married an American, he's California.And we met in Asia. It means that I fit everywhere,
and I fit nowhere.HG: Well that’s beautiful, though, to me.
(49:42):
I feel like that that should be the way weshould be moving towards, as a society.
OF (49:46):
Kind of. But what I was saying was you fit everywhere, but you fit nowhere at the
same time. That's the dichotomy. Again, it'sthis duality.
HG (49:55):
Yeah. AS
know, from our perspective - and it's, it'sjust a dialogue that’s really important
- because like, you know, then we could takethis judgmental view over the years that “Oh
Caucasian people can get away with anythingin China.” Right? “And they have certain
privileges,” and stuff like that.OF: Which is generally true, yeah.
AS (50:14):
It’s true. But it's important for us to get your perspective. Like, there's always
a microscope in some ways on you, becausevisually you're identifiable. Then I think
the other point is that we're navigating thismulticultural world, right? And there's more
and more connectivity. You used to build aroad from A to B, from B to C, and eventually
(50:34):
you could get from A to C. And it's very verylinear, point A to point B. But with connectivity
now, you can literally draw a line from anypoint to any other point. And so where does
the responsibility lie? So we're navigatingthis very complex world. And sometimes we're
going to be the majority, right? We're goingto have the force of the majority, we're going
(50:54):
to be in the in-group in the in-tribe. Andwe don't have to think about things, because
we can just blend in with the masses. Andsometimes we're going to be part of the minority,
and we're going to face certain types of headwinds.And almost everyone experiences that, even
if you're a white Caucasian WASP in the US,like, they have inner voices too. And so everyone
(51:16):
is going to paint themselves as a victim sometimes.And so I think the question is “OK, how
do we have the dialogue?” Because what Iwas thinking earlier was that Justin, myself,
and Howie we have the benefit of each other,we can talk through these things. And we use
the show as self-therapy and self-reflection.OF: Yeah.
And we use the show as a collective identity, because we're not alone. And in a way you're
(51:41):
alone. I think it's like, how do we createthis positive, supportive, open framework?
Because it's really important to know thatyou're not alone. So I think it's like, then
how do we look forward, right? How do we createa support network and plan so that we can
be mentally healthy and happy about ourselves?OF: That's what I think we're both doing with
(52:03):
our projects, it is about putting that messageout there. And you do have the advantage of
having the three of you, and mine is muchmore solitary. But when I meet every guest,
I mean, I do get that energy. It's just notas intimate as what you can do over the course
of two years, day-in day-out meeting eachother. I think the idea of connectivity is
(52:24):
a tricky one, because that was the ideal ofwhat the internet would be, right? We would
all be connected. And then it would be thismarketplace of ideas where the best ideas
would come out. But the problem with connectivityis that we connect with what we already feel
is correct. And then we go into echo chambers,and we only are connecting with the ones who
agree with our own ideas. So you know, thatword is a bit triggering, because it's not
(52:48):
working, you know. It’s what it's what theworld should have been.
And we can send garbage down the network with ease now, which is a problem.
OF (52:55):
That's the problem. So all we can do, yes… I mean, the way forward is to do what
we're doing, you know, and to have open dialoguesand to put out stuff that helps to bridge
the misunderstandings that are from pointA to Z. Let's cure this, guys, the four of
us. OK, let's hold hands.HG: Hold hands. Sing a song.
We’re gonna solve this, we're gonna solve this.
AS (53:16):
Can I end with a quote? JY
Alright. The quote I wanted to share was from Thomas Jefferson, and he just said “How
much pain they have cost us, the evils whichhave never happened?”
JY (53:28):
Yeah, it's kind of almost similar to the idea of, nine out of ten of your concerns
are unfounded.AS: Exactly.
Right. Yeah, and one final point I do want to stress that maybe was lost in this
conversation, was that we like to be criticalof a lot of different places, wherever we
(53:49):
are. But at the same time, like, my pet peeveis like, where we are, we're living off of
the privileges of that place in that culture.OF: Yeah, I agree.
I want to be balanced to our approach, and looking and hearing from all different
perspectives, especially including yours Oscar.OF: You're right. You're both right, yeah.
(54:12):
It's something where it's nice to hear yousay it and articulate it, because it's something
which you're absolutely right. We are privilegedto be here in this point of time. It's a nice
place to end this conversation. And I do agreewith you.
AS (54:23):
I mean, this whole thing with pessimism, right? Like, I think internally, I hold a
lot of pessimism, my inner voice. You know,I have a very loud inner voice that's full
of pessimism. So when I hear pessimism outsideof me, I immediately recognise it. And my
optimistic voice fights it. And so while I'mpoor at fighting my inner voice and pessimism
(54:46):
inside, I'm a crusader against any kind ofpessimism that happens outside. And so I think
you'll find that some of the most pessimisticpeople, they come across really optimistic,
because they're trying to fight that fight.OF: I agree. And this is kind of the dynamic
that I love about your podcast, because Iwouldn't have the forum to bring out this
pessimism. Like, it's not something whichI talk about.
JY (55:07):
Yeah. OF
believe others do too. Because it is a forumthat you can bring out stuff that I would
never say on my own podcast. You know, andI wouldn't say this publicly elsewhere. And
that's thanks to you guys. So I want to sayonce again, thank you for what you do. Continue
with your optimistic podcast. I do appreciateit.
HG (55:24):
Thank you. JY
to you, sharing with you. Good luck on everything.Where can people find you, Oscar?
OF (55:31):
So the podcast is everywhere. You can find the website, the website actually has
transcripts.AS: Wow.
So if you're not good at English, you can follow.
HG (55:39):
That is great. I know a lot of our listeners like that.
OF (55:41):
It's hard to do. It takes time. JY
there's a lot of different stuff.OF: Yes, so I've tried to be creative in terms
of giving the most loyal people who listensome extra content, so you can go on something
called 爱发电 [Àifādiàn], where there'sa longer version of every episode.
JY (56:00):
Yes. OF
HG (56:02):
That’s great. JY
It was a pleasure.HG: Cheers.
OF (56:06):
Cheers. JY
AS (56:10):
Oh, wait, do we say who we are. OF
HG (56:14):
We always do that. OF
Why are you breaking tradition. Justin? OF
OF (56:20):
Ritual. Ritual is important to these guys. JY
AS (56:24):
I'm pretty optimistic today. HG
JY (56:27):
Peace. OF
out so badly. Oh my God. I think it’s thegin.
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