April 18, 2022 • 21 mins
Being locked into our compounds hasn't been a fun experience for the residents of Shanghai over the last month. But we will survive this inconvenience, and we will hopefully be all the more grateful for the luxuries of living in Shanghai, once they have finally returned. Oscar could have spent this time preparing for Season 03 of Mosaic of China. But he hasn’t. So the launch of next season is probably still weeks away. However, today we’re including an edited version of the conversation he had with the hosts of a podcast called Footprints. A big thanks to the Footprints team at China Radion International (CRI) for giving permission to share this on the feed for Mosaic of China. The original full episode can be found at http://chinaplus.cri.cn/podcast/detail/2/118706. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:48 - Main Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-bonus-footprints-cri. Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]OF: What
this means to me is that I feellike I am at ‘peak relatability.’
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So around about now, I should have beenannouncing the start of Season 03 of the show.
(00:24):
I would have finished all my recordings; therewould be photos to share from the fun season
launch party; and we would be ready to hearmore stories from people’s lives in China.
But no, the launch of Season 03 is stillnowhere in sight. I was all set to travel
around China to finish off the final fewrecordings when things started to shut down,
(00:46):
and now I’ve been stuck in Shanghai for a month.
And for most of that time when I say stuck, I meanSTUCK: the locked-indoors, mind-turning-to-mush,
extended-periods-of-questionable-personal-hygienekind of stuck.
Oh, what’s that you say? “You’re locked in, surelythat’s a great chance for you to spend your time
(01:07):
editing down the upcoming episodes, no?” Er,no! I can’t be **** bothered to do any of that.
And even if I could be bothered, Denny is usingour home office every day to do his real job,
and I can’t hunch over the kitchen table for hoursediting recordings without putting my back out.
So here I am, my motivation to do this light andfun podcast project is basically subterranean
(01:32):
right now. And even though I do have enoughtime on my hands to read Tolstoy’s ‘War and
Peace’ - sorry, I mean ‘Special Operationand Peace’ - I’m instead spending all my time
watching a strange cocktail of Bridgerton,Succession and Bob’s Burgers on TV, and all the
while drinking strange cocktails of whatever wecan make from the remnants of our drinks cabinet.
(01:56):
There’s enough terrible news outthere, and apart from this mini-rant,
I don’t really fancy adding any morenegatively into the world right now.
So instead I'm going to try and offset thenegativity by publishing this edited version
of an interview that I did on another podcasta few months ago. This time it was for a show
called Footprints, which is produced by China Radio International, theEnglish-language news service based in Beijing.
(02:22):
Thank you very much to Yin Xiuqi and hiscolleague Ning Yan for the invitation to appear
on their show, as well as to friend-of-the-showRebecca Kanthor, who first made the introduction.
I’ve edited down the original show, so if youwant to listen to the full version please check
out and subscribe to Footprints, which should beavailable wherever you're listening to this now.
(02:49):
[Main]LAI Ming: For more
details about the story of OscarFuchs, Yin Xiuqi had a chat with him,
starting with his experience in Japan.OF: Japan was my first experience living
in Asia. The story was that I was studyinglaw and German at university, and I realised
towards the end of my studies that I did notwant to be a lawyer. So I chose the topics
(03:14):
that were interesting to me in my final year,and one of those topics was the law of Japan,
just a half course on the introduction to Lawin Japan. And that made me very curious. There
was one lesson that I had where the teacher said“This is a concept which I probably can't explain
without taking up the whole lesson. So I'll justcontinue, and we won't discuss that concept”.
(03:40):
When I was faced with a Japanese term that had noequivalent concept in the UK, that's what really
triggered my interest. So when I heard about aprogramme that would allow me to teach English
in Japan, I said “Why not?” I think my family werea little bit shocked, because they thought I might
become a lawyer. But instead, I ran away to Japan.YIN Xiuqi: You've lived in Japan, Singapore,
(04:04):
and China. So from your experience on theobservation, what are some commonalities and
differences between these three countries?OF: Because my experiences living in these
countries were so different, I'm always quitewary about commenting on their commonalities and
differences. But what I will say is that thereare some similarities in the way people think.
(04:27):
They tend to be more deferential towardsseniority, they tend to be less confrontational,
they tend to have a stronger identity as a memberof a family group. These are all generalisations,
of course. Just like with every generalisation,there are many exceptions. I think the differences
(04:48):
that I observed were around the nuances in howpeople communicate with each other. I think people
in Singapore, they can be a little more casual.Whereas people in Japan are much more formal.
Actually, in that way I found the Japaneseto be quite similar to British people. We can
both be very polite, we can be very charming.But underneath the politeness and the charm,
(05:11):
we can be a little reserved, sometimes a littlecold. China is much harder to generalise. In parts
of the south, the culture reminds me of Singapore.And then Shanghai sometimes reminds me of Japan,
where you sometimes need to read between the linesof what people are saying, they're not always
(05:31):
so direct. The north of China, they're quitedirect. The people there are quite cheerful.
It can be quite confronting, but actually Ifind the communication in the north of China
quite refreshing. China has so many regions, thateven cities have their own micro-cultures, right?
YX (05:49):
Right. OF
and say anything comprehensive about China. Japanculture is a little more homogenous, Singapore
culture is a little more international. So Isomehow feel a little less foolish when talking
about those places. I've lived in Hong Kong forthree years and Shanghai now for six, seven years.
(06:11):
And as the years progress, I seem to feel moreand more foolish, and less and less confident
about trying to generalise about China at all.YX: Yeah, this country is so huge and diverse.
OF (06:23):
Right. YX
have you experienced when you move to China?OF: When I moved to China, the lucky part about
my story is that I had of course lived in Japanand Singapore before, so I had learnt some lessons
from my previous experiences. So for example, whenI first moved to Japan I tried very hard to learn
(06:47):
all the customs and to do everything properly.Say the right things; do the right gestures;
try to be as Japanese as the Japanese. The cultureshock I had in Japan was when I realised that
the secret to life was just beingyourself. When I was in Japan,
many of the people I thought were being friendly,they actually were not really my friends.
(07:07):
And it was the people who had initially heldback slightly, and then later engaged with me
on a more authentic level, they were the oneswho became my real friends. And of course,
you do need to adapt to a new culture. That'swhat being a good citizen in a new culture is.
You know, you have to fit in.YX: Yeah.
But it can't be at the expense of what it means to be you. So when I moved to China,
(07:31):
I hadn't forgotten that lesson. Just being myselfhas meant that I was less susceptible to culture
shocks when I eventually moved to Shanghai.YX: Have you made any friends with
the local residents?OF: On the surface, people
in Shanghai are very business-focused, right.It's a business city. It's a commercial city.
(07:52):
And this is definitely true. And that brings withit a certain hardness. It's a little less warm,
a little less friendly, when you compare it tosome other parts of China. This much I've learnt
living here and travelling around. But then whenyou develop a relationship with them, this is when
the hardness just washes away. They become just asfriendly as anywhere else. My next door neighbour,
(08:14):
she's a retired teacher - she's in her late 80s- I see her every day, as I'm coming in and out
of my lane. And it's funny, just yesterday Iwas in a completely different part of town,
and I suddenly saw her on the street. And I neversee her elsewhere, I only see her on my lane.
And I was so surprised to see her, beforeI even knew it I was giving her a big hug
(08:36):
in the middle of the street. And she gave me a bighug back. It's funny, because yesterday, I think I
spent the whole day smiling, and I'm still smilingabout it this morning. I can speak Chinese, but
not well enough to have a very deep conversation.Moments like that remind me that there are more
meaningful ways to interact than just with words.YX: Why did you choose to stay
(08:58):
in this city for so many years?OF: Yeah, this really was a learning process, but
it became clear that Shanghai is a very specialplace. It's not just because it's a city where
there are lots of foreign influences. WhatI've learnt is that it's always been a city
of immigrants since its inception. You know, aChinese history professor friend of mine told me,
(09:20):
there's no such thing as an original Shanghaineseperson. Even the original inhabitants were
from 宁波 [Níngbō] or 苏州 [Sūzhōu]. Of course, youdo have the international influences that came
later. And that's where Shanghai earned itsreputation as the 开放城市 [kāifàng chéngshì], a
city open to the outside world. The people hereare from all corners of the world. They represent
(09:42):
people from business, from academia, arts, andsports and science, and you name it. People here,
they're just open to ideas, they’re open toconnections. Now, there is a downside. Because it
can be absolutely exhausting to keep up with thistraffic of ideas, this traffic of opportunities.
(10:02):
So that's the one downside to the city. You needto find your equilibrium somehow. You need to
prioritise the things that keep you happy, becauseit can be very easy to lose sight of those things,
and that's when people can have problems. Butwhat I'm seeing - especially with the younger
generation - is that they understandthis. The younger people here, I think,
(10:24):
they're trying to have lifestyles that are moresustainable. And those are the people that I think
are going to form the future culture of Shanghai.YX: Yeah. So Shanghai is very open and diverse.
Do you think this city is a place ofopportunity for foreign nationals?
Oh, definitely. It's the easiest place, it's the most productive place.
(10:46):
In some ways that’s a negative, because peoplewill say “Well, it's not the real China”. And I
think they're right. You know, it's not the realChina, just as London is not the real England,
New York is not the real America.YX: Right.
But because of this confluence of ideas and people, I think it's a great place to
base yourself. When I was in my headhuntingcompany, it was extremely useful for me to be
(11:10):
based in Shanghai. As a headhunter, I reallyshould have been meeting my clients at their
global headquarters. I tried to start planningthese trips to my clients, and then I realised
"Wow, these clients are spread across thewhole of America, the whole of Europe. I
would need a three-month road-trip to visitall of my clients across these continents”.
(11:31):
But then I realised being in Shanghaithat actually, the world was flying to me.
YX (11:36):
Yeah. OF
I didn't need to go to all these places. At somepoint, they would come to me. And that was the
unique attraction about being based in Shanghai.YX: Right. You've been in Shanghai for
more than six years, I think. So what kind ofchanges have you noticed in terms of its urban
infrastructure and its cultural environment?OF: Well, let me talk about the urban
(11:59):
infrastructure. I do continue to see changes allthe time, the pace of change hasn't seemed to slow
down in all my six years here. I'll tell you whatI noticed the most, and that is the environment
feels much greener in the city these days. Youknow, the city has made a huge effort to bring
more nature into the city, especially since I'vebeen here. That's the one thing I do miss about
(12:22):
living in places like Hong Kong and Singapore,where you do have much easier access to nature.
Even Beijing, where you are, I think you can getto the mountains pretty easily outside of Beijing,
maybe one hour? In Hong Kong, I could hike 30minutes from my home in Hong Kong and I would
be up a mountain. In Singapore, I had monkeysstealing mangoes from the tree in my garden.
(12:45):
It's very difficult to replicate that in acity like Shanghai. But that's the effort that
they're making, and I really appreciate that. It'sturning Shanghai into an even more liveable city,
even though there are so many people here.It's harder for me to answer the second part
of your question about the cultural environment,because COVID has definitely made that harder.
(13:06):
You know, Shanghai used to have artists andexhibitions and people always coming in and out,
and the highest quality of culture used toflow into the city from all parts of the world.
And that is recently a little lacking, I'mafraid. You do still get interesting exhibitions,
but not in the same number that we used to.I guess we're just looking forward to the
(13:29):
days when this can bounce back.YX: Have you traveled to other
places in China, other than Shanghai?OF: Yes. You know, normally, if I had
a week or two, I would leave China and I wouldsee my friends in Singapore or Tokyo or London.
But with COVID, you can't travel. So in the lasttwo years especially, I have travelled to many
(13:50):
different places that maybe otherwise I wouldn'thave gone to. So I spent time in 甘肃 [Gānsù],
in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], in 云南 [Yúnnán], in 贵州 [Guìzhōu].I just came back from a trip to 西宁 [Xīníng]
in 青海 [Qīnghǎi], and 杭州 [Hángzhōu], manydifferent places. And I'm really understanding,
more and more, the diversity of China.[Break]
LM (14:11):
Now let's take a short break. Next, Fuchs will talk about why he launched his Mosaic of China
project, and how he got to better understandand present this country in his talk show.
Stay tuned. You've been listening to Footprints.[End of Break]
OF (14:29):
I noticed that the representation of China in the media was always focusing on… Well, one of my
podcast interviewees - she is a fashion journalist- she had a great quote, she said “People look at
‘Big, Bad, Weird China’”. They only focuson the ‘big, bad, weird' side of China,
(14:51):
and they don't focus on all the other aspectsof life in China. So I wanted to present a
different image, something which was more focusedon the lives of people who live in this country.
YX (15:05):
How many guests have been invited to appear on your show?
OF (15:09):
Right, well every season consists of 30 guests. That's the number that I came
up with that works best to allow for as muchdiversity as possible. And now there have been
two seasons so far. So altogether, that makes60 guests. And then when I launch Season 03,
that'll be another 30 coming up.YX: The Mosaic of China is about
(15:31):
telling stories of people from various walksof life and different cultural backgrounds.
Through speaking with your guests, you have amuch better and deeper understanding of China
and the people who live here.OF: Absolutely. That's a very selfish
by-product of this project, I get more and morelayers of knowledge, where I'm slowly learning
(15:58):
more about China. This is where it's interesting,because I like to keep an element of ignorance at
the same time. Let me explain it. When I was doingheadhunting, I was working with management teams.
And they were often cross-cultural managementteams. Sometimes you ask the team “Why do you
(16:18):
do it like this in China?” Or "Why do youdo it like this in Japan?” Whatever, right?
And the Chinese person would sometimes say “Well,that's just how we do it in China”. Sometimes,
the foreigner who has lived in China for a longtime, they will agree. They will say "Yeah,
that's just how things are done in China”.Sometimes the foreigner adapts too much. Sometimes
(16:42):
you need to have the foreigner who has justarrived into China, they are the ones who ask
the question, “No no really, why do you do that?”If the answer is just “Oh that's just what we do,
that's just Chinese culture,” you really haveto investigate that. Is it culture? Or is it
an excuse not to change? You know, what even isculture? Because culture itself can be hijacked,
(17:03):
it can be manipulated, depending on the reasonwhy people are saying that. So I learned that
from my headhunting days as well. Yes, I do learnmore and more. At the same time, I still try to
keep that naïveté. I still try to keep that partof me which remains inquisitive and ignorant,
(17:24):
so that I can ask the right questions.YX: How did you get the financial
support for producing your show?OF: This is why it's not a business, I don't get
financial support, I have the luxury of being ableto fund the project myself. Now having said that,
I do get some donations from fans, and from someorganisations, people who understand the ethos,
(17:48):
they just want to support what I'm doing. Butactually, it doesn't pay the costs. And it's also
not why I'm doing the show. You know, the factthat I'm independent - and the fact that this is
not a business, it's just a passion project - thisis what hopefully keeps the project more pure,
and hopefully more trusted by its listeners.So I don't think that it will ever be something
(18:12):
which will be fully financially supported.YX: Besides producing and hosting Mosaic of China,
what other things keep you busy at the moment?OF: Well actually, I am a student. When I sold
my company, I didn't just start the podcast,I also enrolled in a Master's degree programme
at 上海交通大学 [Shànghǎi Jiāotōng Dàxué], where I amstudying a Masters of Modern Chinese studies,
(18:38):
which is a great course. It’s a mixture ofphilosophy, and history, and the literature of
modern China. So I attended lectures for the firstyear, and then I am now writing my thesis. So
that's what keeps me busy outside of the podcast.YX: What are your plans for your show,
(19:00):
and for yourself?OF: Well, the plan is to just keep going
for now. Maybe I'll still be here doing this infive years, and maybe I won't. This is, I think,
how I've always lived my life. So I don't reallyhave a plan. Especially these days with COVID,
the future seems so unknowable. So I'm just tryingto focus on living in the now. And just like how
(19:23):
things happened when I moved to Shanghai -when I moved to Hong Kong, when I moved to
Singapore - something will present itself.YX: Yeah.
And maybe I'll end up in Beijing, who knows? YX
family background and your life back in Britain?OF: That's a good question, because we are all a
product of our childhood and our upbringing, Ithink. I come from London, my father is Czech
(19:48):
with an engineering background, my mother wasSlovak with an artistic background, she was a very
accomplished pianist and piano teacher. And then Iwent to a school in central London, where my class
was a mix of people from all over the world. Andat that time, you know, you don't really question
your upbringing. You just live your life, youjust get on with it. But now when I look back,
(20:12):
I can see how I've always been absorbing thisabsolute mess of cultures in my background, and
I've always enjoyed it. This is one of the reasonswhy I feel like I'm in exactly the right place at
the right time. I have a mix of the practicaland the artistic in my background. I have a mix
of cultures. I'm now in my 40s, so I can stilljust about remember my 20s and my 30s, yet I can
(20:38):
also relate to people in their 50s and their60s. My generation straddled the digital age,
we remember the time before mobile phones, beforeemail, and yet we've adapted to the modern age.
YX (20:51):
Right. OF
life half in Europe and half in Asia. I've had alot of luck, I've had a lot of success, but I've
also experienced tragedy. So what this means to meis that I feel like I am at ‘peak relatability.’
I feel like I can relate to many people. So whenyou asked me about my childhood, it does make me
(21:11):
think “Yes, I can track the narrative of mylife up to what I'm doing today”. It almost
feels like this is exactly what I should be doing.YX: Great. Thank you very much for talking to me.
OF (21:24):
Oh, thank you Xiuqi, really great to speak with you.
[Break]LM: With that, we conclude this
edition of Footprints. This is Lai Ming, thanksfor listening. See you next time. Bye for now.
[Trailer]OF: What
this means to me is that I feellike I am at ‘peak relatability.’
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
So around about now, I should have beenannouncing the start of Season 03 of the show.
(00:24):
I would have finished all my recordings; therewould be photos to share from the fun season
launch party; and we would be ready to hearmore stories from people’s lives in China.
But no, the launch of Season 03 is stillnowhere in sight. I was all set to travel
around China to finish off the final fewrecordings when things started to shut down,
(00:46):
and now I’ve been stuck in Shanghai for a month.
And for most of that time when I say stuck, I meanSTUCK: the locked-indoors, mind-turning-to-mush,
extended-periods-of-questionable-personal-hygienekind of stuck.
Oh, what’s that you say? “You’re locked in, surelythat’s a great chance for you to spend your time
(01:07):
editing down the upcoming episodes, no?” Er,no! I can’t be **** bothered to do any of that.
And even if I could be bothered, Denny is usingour home office every day to do his real job,
and I can’t hunch over the kitchen table for hoursediting recordings without putting my back out.
So here I am, my motivation to do this light andfun podcast project is basically subterranean
(01:32):
right now. And even though I do have enoughtime on my hands to read Tolstoy’s ‘War and
Peace’ - sorry, I mean ‘Special Operationand Peace’ - I’m instead spending all my time
watching a strange cocktail of Bridgerton,Succession and Bob’s Burgers on TV, and all the
while drinking strange cocktails of whatever wecan make from the remnants of our drinks cabinet.
(01:56):
There’s enough terrible news outthere, and apart from this mini-rant,
I don’t really fancy adding any morenegatively into the world right now.
So instead I'm going to try and offset thenegativity by publishing this edited version
of an interview that I did on another podcasta few months ago. This time it was for a show
called Footprints, which is produced by China Radio International, theEnglish-language news service based in Beijing.
(02:22):
Thank you very much to Yin Xiuqi and hiscolleague Ning Yan for the invitation to appear
on their show, as well as to friend-of-the-showRebecca Kanthor, who first made the introduction.
I’ve edited down the original show, so if youwant to listen to the full version please check
out and subscribe to Footprints, which should beavailable wherever you're listening to this now.
(02:49):
[Main]LAI Ming: For more
details about the story of OscarFuchs, Yin Xiuqi had a chat with him,
starting with his experience in Japan.OF: Japan was my first experience living
in Asia. The story was that I was studyinglaw and German at university, and I realised
towards the end of my studies that I did notwant to be a lawyer. So I chose the topics
(03:14):
that were interesting to me in my final year,and one of those topics was the law of Japan,
just a half course on the introduction to Lawin Japan. And that made me very curious. There
was one lesson that I had where the teacher said“This is a concept which I probably can't explain
without taking up the whole lesson. So I'll justcontinue, and we won't discuss that concept”.
(03:40):
When I was faced with a Japanese term that had noequivalent concept in the UK, that's what really
triggered my interest. So when I heard about aprogramme that would allow me to teach English
in Japan, I said “Why not?” I think my family werea little bit shocked, because they thought I might
become a lawyer. But instead, I ran away to Japan.YIN Xiuqi: You've lived in Japan, Singapore,
(04:04):
and China. So from your experience on theobservation, what are some commonalities and
differences between these three countries?OF: Because my experiences living in these
countries were so different, I'm always quitewary about commenting on their commonalities and
differences. But what I will say is that thereare some similarities in the way people think.
(04:27):
They tend to be more deferential towardsseniority, they tend to be less confrontational,
they tend to have a stronger identity as a memberof a family group. These are all generalisations,
of course. Just like with every generalisation,there are many exceptions. I think the differences
(04:48):
that I observed were around the nuances in howpeople communicate with each other. I think people
in Singapore, they can be a little more casual.Whereas people in Japan are much more formal.
Actually, in that way I found the Japaneseto be quite similar to British people. We can
both be very polite, we can be very charming.But underneath the politeness and the charm,
(05:11):
we can be a little reserved, sometimes a littlecold. China is much harder to generalise. In parts
of the south, the culture reminds me of Singapore.And then Shanghai sometimes reminds me of Japan,
where you sometimes need to read between the linesof what people are saying, they're not always
(05:31):
so direct. The north of China, they're quitedirect. The people there are quite cheerful.
It can be quite confronting, but actually Ifind the communication in the north of China
quite refreshing. China has so many regions, thateven cities have their own micro-cultures, right?
YX (05:49):
Right. OF
and say anything comprehensive about China. Japanculture is a little more homogenous, Singapore
culture is a little more international. So Isomehow feel a little less foolish when talking
about those places. I've lived in Hong Kong forthree years and Shanghai now for six, seven years.
(06:11):
And as the years progress, I seem to feel moreand more foolish, and less and less confident
about trying to generalise about China at all.YX: Yeah, this country is so huge and diverse.
OF (06:23):
Right. YX
have you experienced when you move to China?OF: When I moved to China, the lucky part about
my story is that I had of course lived in Japanand Singapore before, so I had learnt some lessons
from my previous experiences. So for example, whenI first moved to Japan I tried very hard to learn
(06:47):
all the customs and to do everything properly.Say the right things; do the right gestures;
try to be as Japanese as the Japanese. The cultureshock I had in Japan was when I realised that
the secret to life was just beingyourself. When I was in Japan,
many of the people I thought were being friendly,they actually were not really my friends.
(07:07):
And it was the people who had initially heldback slightly, and then later engaged with me
on a more authentic level, they were the oneswho became my real friends. And of course,
you do need to adapt to a new culture. That'swhat being a good citizen in a new culture is.
You know, you have to fit in.YX: Yeah.
But it can't be at the expense of what it means to be you. So when I moved to China,
(07:31):
I hadn't forgotten that lesson. Just being myselfhas meant that I was less susceptible to culture
shocks when I eventually moved to Shanghai.YX: Have you made any friends with
the local residents?OF: On the surface, people
in Shanghai are very business-focused, right.It's a business city. It's a commercial city.
(07:52):
And this is definitely true. And that brings withit a certain hardness. It's a little less warm,
a little less friendly, when you compare it tosome other parts of China. This much I've learnt
living here and travelling around. But then whenyou develop a relationship with them, this is when
the hardness just washes away. They become just asfriendly as anywhere else. My next door neighbour,
(08:14):
she's a retired teacher - she's in her late 80s- I see her every day, as I'm coming in and out
of my lane. And it's funny, just yesterday Iwas in a completely different part of town,
and I suddenly saw her on the street. And I neversee her elsewhere, I only see her on my lane.
And I was so surprised to see her, beforeI even knew it I was giving her a big hug
(08:36):
in the middle of the street. And she gave me a bighug back. It's funny, because yesterday, I think I
spent the whole day smiling, and I'm still smilingabout it this morning. I can speak Chinese, but
not well enough to have a very deep conversation.Moments like that remind me that there are more
meaningful ways to interact than just with words.YX: Why did you choose to stay
(08:58):
in this city for so many years?OF: Yeah, this really was a learning process, but
it became clear that Shanghai is a very specialplace. It's not just because it's a city where
there are lots of foreign influences. WhatI've learnt is that it's always been a city
of immigrants since its inception. You know, aChinese history professor friend of mine told me,
(09:20):
there's no such thing as an original Shanghaineseperson. Even the original inhabitants were
from 宁波 [Níngbō] or 苏州 [Sūzhōu]. Of course, youdo have the international influences that came
later. And that's where Shanghai earned itsreputation as the 开放城市 [kāifàng chéngshì], a
city open to the outside world. The people hereare from all corners of the world. They represent
(09:42):
people from business, from academia, arts, andsports and science, and you name it. People here,
they're just open to ideas, they’re open toconnections. Now, there is a downside. Because it
can be absolutely exhausting to keep up with thistraffic of ideas, this traffic of opportunities.
(10:02):
So that's the one downside to the city. You needto find your equilibrium somehow. You need to
prioritise the things that keep you happy, becauseit can be very easy to lose sight of those things,
and that's when people can have problems. Butwhat I'm seeing - especially with the younger
generation - is that they understandthis. The younger people here, I think,
(10:24):
they're trying to have lifestyles that are moresustainable. And those are the people that I think
are going to form the future culture of Shanghai.YX: Yeah. So Shanghai is very open and diverse.
Do you think this city is a place ofopportunity for foreign nationals?
Oh, definitely. It's the easiest place, it's the most productive place.
(10:46):
In some ways that’s a negative, because peoplewill say “Well, it's not the real China”. And I
think they're right. You know, it's not the realChina, just as London is not the real England,
New York is not the real America.YX: Right.
But because of this confluence of ideas and people, I think it's a great place to
base yourself. When I was in my headhuntingcompany, it was extremely useful for me to be
(11:10):
based in Shanghai. As a headhunter, I reallyshould have been meeting my clients at their
global headquarters. I tried to start planningthese trips to my clients, and then I realised
"Wow, these clients are spread across thewhole of America, the whole of Europe. I
would need a three-month road-trip to visitall of my clients across these continents”.
(11:31):
But then I realised being in Shanghaithat actually, the world was flying to me.
YX (11:36):
Yeah. OF
I didn't need to go to all these places. At somepoint, they would come to me. And that was the
unique attraction about being based in Shanghai.YX: Right. You've been in Shanghai for
more than six years, I think. So what kind ofchanges have you noticed in terms of its urban
infrastructure and its cultural environment?OF: Well, let me talk about the urban
(11:59):
infrastructure. I do continue to see changes allthe time, the pace of change hasn't seemed to slow
down in all my six years here. I'll tell you whatI noticed the most, and that is the environment
feels much greener in the city these days. Youknow, the city has made a huge effort to bring
more nature into the city, especially since I'vebeen here. That's the one thing I do miss about
(12:22):
living in places like Hong Kong and Singapore,where you do have much easier access to nature.
Even Beijing, where you are, I think you can getto the mountains pretty easily outside of Beijing,
maybe one hour? In Hong Kong, I could hike 30minutes from my home in Hong Kong and I would
be up a mountain. In Singapore, I had monkeysstealing mangoes from the tree in my garden.
(12:45):
It's very difficult to replicate that in acity like Shanghai. But that's the effort that
they're making, and I really appreciate that. It'sturning Shanghai into an even more liveable city,
even though there are so many people here.It's harder for me to answer the second part
of your question about the cultural environment,because COVID has definitely made that harder.
(13:06):
You know, Shanghai used to have artists andexhibitions and people always coming in and out,
and the highest quality of culture used toflow into the city from all parts of the world.
And that is recently a little lacking, I'mafraid. You do still get interesting exhibitions,
but not in the same number that we used to.I guess we're just looking forward to the
(13:29):
days when this can bounce back.YX: Have you traveled to other
places in China, other than Shanghai?OF: Yes. You know, normally, if I had
a week or two, I would leave China and I wouldsee my friends in Singapore or Tokyo or London.
But with COVID, you can't travel. So in the lasttwo years especially, I have travelled to many
(13:50):
different places that maybe otherwise I wouldn'thave gone to. So I spent time in 甘肃 [Gānsù],
in 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], in 云南 [Yúnnán], in 贵州 [Guìzhōu].I just came back from a trip to 西宁 [Xīníng]
in 青海 [Qīnghǎi], and 杭州 [Hángzhōu], manydifferent places. And I'm really understanding,
more and more, the diversity of China.[Break]
LM (14:11):
Now let's take a short break. Next, Fuchs will talk about why he launched his Mosaic of China
project, and how he got to better understandand present this country in his talk show.
Stay tuned. You've been listening to Footprints.[End of Break]
OF (14:29):
I noticed that the representation of China in the media was always focusing on… Well, one of my
podcast interviewees - she is a fashion journalist- she had a great quote, she said “People look at
‘Big, Bad, Weird China’”. They only focuson the ‘big, bad, weird' side of China,
(14:51):
and they don't focus on all the other aspectsof life in China. So I wanted to present a
different image, something which was more focusedon the lives of people who live in this country.
YX (15:05):
How many guests have been invited to appear on your show?
OF (15:09):
Right, well every season consists of 30 guests. That's the number that I came
up with that works best to allow for as muchdiversity as possible. And now there have been
two seasons so far. So altogether, that makes60 guests. And then when I launch Season 03,
that'll be another 30 coming up.YX: The Mosaic of China is about
(15:31):
telling stories of people from various walksof life and different cultural backgrounds.
Through speaking with your guests, you have amuch better and deeper understanding of China
and the people who live here.OF: Absolutely. That's a very selfish
by-product of this project, I get more and morelayers of knowledge, where I'm slowly learning
(15:58):
more about China. This is where it's interesting,because I like to keep an element of ignorance at
the same time. Let me explain it. When I was doingheadhunting, I was working with management teams.
And they were often cross-cultural managementteams. Sometimes you ask the team “Why do you
(16:18):
do it like this in China?” Or "Why do youdo it like this in Japan?” Whatever, right?
And the Chinese person would sometimes say “Well,that's just how we do it in China”. Sometimes,
the foreigner who has lived in China for a longtime, they will agree. They will say "Yeah,
that's just how things are done in China”.Sometimes the foreigner adapts too much. Sometimes
(16:42):
you need to have the foreigner who has justarrived into China, they are the ones who ask
the question, “No no really, why do you do that?”If the answer is just “Oh that's just what we do,
that's just Chinese culture,” you really haveto investigate that. Is it culture? Or is it
an excuse not to change? You know, what even isculture? Because culture itself can be hijacked,
(17:03):
it can be manipulated, depending on the reasonwhy people are saying that. So I learned that
from my headhunting days as well. Yes, I do learnmore and more. At the same time, I still try to
keep that naïveté. I still try to keep that partof me which remains inquisitive and ignorant,
(17:24):
so that I can ask the right questions.YX: How did you get the financial
support for producing your show?OF: This is why it's not a business, I don't get
financial support, I have the luxury of being ableto fund the project myself. Now having said that,
I do get some donations from fans, and from someorganisations, people who understand the ethos,
(17:48):
they just want to support what I'm doing. Butactually, it doesn't pay the costs. And it's also
not why I'm doing the show. You know, the factthat I'm independent - and the fact that this is
not a business, it's just a passion project - thisis what hopefully keeps the project more pure,
and hopefully more trusted by its listeners.So I don't think that it will ever be something
(18:12):
which will be fully financially supported.YX: Besides producing and hosting Mosaic of China,
what other things keep you busy at the moment?OF: Well actually, I am a student. When I sold
my company, I didn't just start the podcast,I also enrolled in a Master's degree programme
at 上海交通大学 [Shànghǎi Jiāotōng Dàxué], where I amstudying a Masters of Modern Chinese studies,
(18:38):
which is a great course. It’s a mixture ofphilosophy, and history, and the literature of
modern China. So I attended lectures for the firstyear, and then I am now writing my thesis. So
that's what keeps me busy outside of the podcast.YX: What are your plans for your show,
(19:00):
and for yourself?OF: Well, the plan is to just keep going
for now. Maybe I'll still be here doing this infive years, and maybe I won't. This is, I think,
how I've always lived my life. So I don't reallyhave a plan. Especially these days with COVID,
the future seems so unknowable. So I'm just tryingto focus on living in the now. And just like how
(19:23):
things happened when I moved to Shanghai -when I moved to Hong Kong, when I moved to
Singapore - something will present itself.YX: Yeah.
And maybe I'll end up in Beijing, who knows? YX
family background and your life back in Britain?OF: That's a good question, because we are all a
product of our childhood and our upbringing, Ithink. I come from London, my father is Czech
(19:48):
with an engineering background, my mother wasSlovak with an artistic background, she was a very
accomplished pianist and piano teacher. And then Iwent to a school in central London, where my class
was a mix of people from all over the world. Andat that time, you know, you don't really question
your upbringing. You just live your life, youjust get on with it. But now when I look back,
(20:12):
I can see how I've always been absorbing thisabsolute mess of cultures in my background, and
I've always enjoyed it. This is one of the reasonswhy I feel like I'm in exactly the right place at
the right time. I have a mix of the practicaland the artistic in my background. I have a mix
of cultures. I'm now in my 40s, so I can stilljust about remember my 20s and my 30s, yet I can
(20:38):
also relate to people in their 50s and their60s. My generation straddled the digital age,
we remember the time before mobile phones, beforeemail, and yet we've adapted to the modern age.
YX (20:51):
Right. OF
life half in Europe and half in Asia. I've had alot of luck, I've had a lot of success, but I've
also experienced tragedy. So what this means to meis that I feel like I am at ‘peak relatability.’
I feel like I can relate to many people. So whenyou asked me about my childhood, it does make me
(21:11):
think “Yes, I can track the narrative of mylife up to what I'm doing today”. It almost
feels like this is exactly what I should be doing.YX: Great. Thank you very much for talking to me.
OF (21:24):
Oh, thank you Xiuqi, really great to speak with you.
[Break]LM: With that, we conclude this
edition of Footprints. This is Lai Ming, thanksfor listening. See you next time. Bye for now.
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