August 23, 2021 • 42 mins
Zhao Huiling was born in Shanghai, and spent the formative years of her life in West Africa. The experience changed her life, and still informs her work - and her world view - to this day. So it's useful for listeners to Mosaic of China to be reminded that culture clashes are not binary; they can happen no matter where you're from, and no matter with what new culture you're confronted. More than just that, Huiling also represents the mindset of the worldly young Shanghainese professional. These are people who have enjoyed all the benefits of modern luxury that China's economic progress has given them, and are now asking themselves "What does it all mean"? The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Eric Olander from Season 01 Episode 03. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-03-eric-olander). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:16 - Part 1 22:58 - Part 2 29:20 - Outro 34:14 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-28-zhao-huiling.
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(00:02):
[Trailer]ZH: Hit me Baby One More Time.
OF (00:04):
Wow, she means it.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
I'm really happy to be including Huiling'sstory in this season. Because up until now,
whenever there has been a story about a clashof cultures, it has been in the context of
(00:27):
non-Chinese nationals coming to live in mainlandChina. So the impression this might leave
is that this is a China thing. But no, thisis a universal experience, no matter where
you're from and no matter with what new cultureyou're confronted. So that's why it's useful
to hear the same story from the perspectiveof a Chinese person who has spent the formative
(00:49):
years of her life living outside of China.
More than just that, Huiling also representsthe mindset of the worldly young Shanghainese
professional, who has enjoyed all the benefitsof modern luxury that China's economic progress
has given her, and is now asking themselves"What does it all mean?" And this is where
the Mosaic we're building with this projectisn't just about piecing together stories
(01:11):
across cultures, it's also about the doingthe same across generations.
[Part 1]OF: Well thank you so much Huiling.
ZH (01:20):
No problem. OF
your name? So your name is Zhao Huiling, whatare the tones of your name?
Huiling. OF
Yeah. OF
Exactly. OF
Huiling, nice to meet you here.ZH: You too.
OF (01:35):
We first met, oh, it must have been about a year ago now.
ZH (01:38):
Yeah, time flies by. OF
Yeah. OF
[Start of Audio Clip]Eric OLANDER: I am going to recommend that
you speak with a wonderful woman by the nameof Zhao Huiling, and Zhao Huiling is a vlogger.
She spent an enormous amount of time in Africa,and now she's bringing African life to Chinese
users on social media, through vlogs and WeChatposts and things like that.
(02:01):
[End of Audio Clip]OF: That was our mutual friend Eric Olander.
Absolutely. OF
I did a podcast for Eric on his China Africa Project.
OF (02:13):
Yes. ZH
we developed a friendship out of that. Herecommended me to you, and now I'm doing podcast
for Mosaic.OF: Thank you. And of course, Africa is the
connection. But before we go into that wholestory, tell me what object did you bring today
that in some way represents your life in China?ZH: So I brought a shuka.
(02:38):
Show me. OK, she's getting it out of her bag. I have no idea what that word means.
It could be an animal, for all I know.ZH: So a shuka is basically something the
Maasai tribe - which is predominantly in EastAfrica - they would wear. They’re nomads.
And this is actually something very signatureof their attire. It's very resistant to cold,
(03:06):
because in those areas, it actually gets verycold at night. So they would wear this over
their shoulder, just drape it over their shoulder.And the red is actually a flashy colour which
the lions hate.OF: Oh, so it's to make sure lions don't attack.
ZH (03:19):
Exactly. OF
in Shanghai these days.ZH: No, so I definitely don't use it to fend
myself off from lions. During the winter,during the fall, I wear it as a gigantic scarf
that keeps me from the cold. During the spring,sometimes it appears on my dining table when
(03:40):
I have friends over for dinner, and I justwant something a bit more festive, a bit more
colourful. And I love giving it as a souvenirfor my friends as well. So you know, it's
really something practical they can infuseinto their everyday life.
OF (03:53):
Excellent. And what's it called again? ZH
Shuka, and that is in what language ZH
Swahili, I guess. ZH
OK. Well, you grew up where in Africa? ZH
OK. ZH
So tell us about your upbringing. How come you were in Ghana?
ZH (04:11):
So I'm originally from Shanghai, until I was about 10. I think my dad was just going
through a midlife crisis. He was like “OK,I don't want to be here anymore”. So he
wanted to leave. At that time, my uncle andmy aunt had already moved to Ghana. He was
just supposed to go lie there on the beach,under the coconut trees, for a couple of months.
(04:34):
Never came back.OF: Which meant, who was left in Shanghai?
You and your mother?ZH: Me and my mom. And my mom decided that
she was going to join him. And a few monthsafter, I joined them in Ghana.
OF (04:46):
Wow, and I guess it was Accra, was it? ZH
Tell me about your life there. ZH
school, they didn't have hair. And there weren'ta lot of Chinese kids whose parents sent them
to the local schools. So I was attending alocal school, and all my classmates were Ghanaian.
(05:09):
The fact that I had hair was very interestingfor them. So I became quite popular overnight.
Because all the kids in school were linedup in front of my class, wanting to play with
my hair.OF: Wow.
ZH (05:22):
Yeah. They were just like “No, I don't understand. How could you be born this way?”
So that was really fun.OF: OK, so that was the big culture shock,
was it? Just the hair?ZH: That was the big culture shock. So another
one would be the way we eat. Obviously, by10, I was already using chopsticks, right?
OF (05:41):
Yeah. ZH
their lunchbox and started using their hands.So that was a little cultural shock for me
as well. And there's such a culture of sharing,that it’s unnatural if you took a lunchbox
to school, and you wouldn't want to shareit with your classmate next to you. But I,
(06:01):
you know, grew to it pretty quickly.OF: Yeah. I guess that's a great way for you
to learn about the culture of food, just stealyour neighbour's lunch, right?
ZH (06:11):
Exactly, exactly. OF
are you more likely to accept new things?Or actually, are you more likely to be possessive
about your previous culture?ZH: OK, so this is a good question. Because
my uncle and my aunt, they had a daughter- so, my cousin - who’s two years older
than me. We actually spent the same amountof time in Ghana. She was sent to an international
(06:34):
school, and I was sent to a local school.And she hated people touching her hair, she
hated sharing her food. Because you have totake into consideration, we're all only children.
OF (06:45):
Yeah. ZH
it's just, you know, a level of resistance.She resisted it, probably a lot more than
me. So up until today, she still counts thatas a not-so-pleasant culture shock. While
I just blended in and became one of them.OF: Yeah. It's such a common story.
ZH (07:08):
Yeah. OF
people who put their children into internationalschools here in Shanghai, of course.
Right. OF
wall, which then gets reinforced.ZH: Right.
OF (07:20):
You're not really integrating. I mean, there are people here who've lived in China
for X number of years, and they don't needto really understand the local culture.
ZH (07:27):
Right. OF
I think the school is definitely a background in which, you know, the child gets their world
view from. But I think what's even more thanthat is parenting. You know, my parents were…
I mean, they’d never been to Africa. Andthis was a time where if you told your friends
you're going to Africa, people prayed foryou. They were like “Oh my god, I hope you
(07:51):
come back”. So for my parents to go intosuch a foreign culture, such a foreign land,
but to embrace everything, I think that wasmore important than the school I attended.
OF (08:01):
Wow. ZH
So you're lucky you had those open-minded parents?
ZH (08:05):
Yeah. OF
so much is, it has really informed what youdo these days. And also, I guess, your entire
outlook on the world, correct?ZH: Right.
OF (08:17):
Can you describe what that is? ZH
for the first time, and as soon as they stepoff the plane, something captivates them.
And they start crying, they become emotional.There's definitely certain reasons as to why
this happens. And through my experience ofliving in Africa, I realised this is something
(08:42):
we all strive for, which is freedom. You know,in Shanghai, I think on one hand, we're fighting
for this individuality. On the other hand,you have this extreme conformity. People get
lost. What is true freedom? And I think foranyone who has had the privilege of going
(09:06):
to Africa, they might have some insights intothat particular answer.
Wow. Which is hard to describe, I guess. But is it something about the closeness to
nature? Like, how would you describe whatthat feeling is?
ZH (09:18):
Nature is definitely a big part of it. You don't feel like Homo Sapiens are on Earth
to dominate other species.OF: Right.
You know, you're just a guest. So that gives you a very refreshing perspective, which
sometimes we forget. And secondly, I thinkit's the people that you would come across.
(09:41):
Why are they so damn happy every day? Theydon't have the same measurement of success
as us - buying a car, buying a house - theydon't necessarily use those same measurements.
It's being able to spend time with your family,being in nature. I woke up hungry, there was
this coconut tree, I climbed it, I got a coconut,I'm no longer hungry.
OF (10:04):
No worries. ZH
Yeah. And I think it’s a dangerous image, because sometimes we can also romanticise
that image as well, right?ZH: Yes. So where is the balance? We are chasing
this GDP? Does higher GDP really bring a betterlife to people? And if that's true, what is
(10:25):
the definition of that? I'm not saying everybodyshould just go climb a coconut tree. You definitely
need to have water, roads, basic necessitiesfor people to have security. So how do we
strive for the balance between preservingthe nature around us, developing sustainably,
(10:47):
making sure that the things we do measurehappiness with are the true factors that bring
fulfilment to people. And through the workthat I'm doing, through the content that I'm
creating, maybe that would raise some questions.OF: Right. So let's talk about that, then.
ZH (11:07):
Yeah. OF
So I am a vlogger. Every time I travel back to Africa, I shoot a lot of footage of
the people I meet, of the organisations Icome across, and the works they do. So I create
all of these into vlogs, which I publish onmy social media.
OF (11:27):
OK, very succinctly described. Let me pick away at what you just said, then. So
first of all, social media here in China,what channels do you use?
ZH (11:37):
So I am on WeChat, 公众号 [Gōngzhònghào], I have an official WeChat account. I am on
微博 [Wēibó]. And all my vlogs, I haveEnglish and Chinese, right. So if I'm speaking
Chinese, I have English subtitles. And theother way around.
OF (11:53):
When you and I first met, I remember you mentioning 西瓜 [Xīguā], you used to use
西瓜 [Xīguā].ZH: Yes.
And 抖音 [Dǒuyīn] as well, right? ZH
Do you still use those, or have you now narrowed it down?
ZH (12:03):
So when we first met, I just started this vlog project. And we have the saying in Chinese
- especially for content creators, which anybodythat's doing the same thing would have a huge
resonance with - which is 用爱发电 [yòng’àifādiàn], you're generating power with love.
OF (12:21):
Oh. ZH
So at the beginning, what I was 用爱发电[yòng’ài fādiàn]. I was so passionate
about it, I loved what I was doing so much,it was really pure love. And then eventually,
I realised “OK, I need to figure out a businessmodel. How can I be compensated to allow me
(12:45):
to continue to do this?”OF: Right.
ZH (12:47):
Right? So it came down to the idea of doing bespoke tourism for Chinese to Africa.
So that was the direction I took. Not workingso well this year…
OF (12:57):
Yeah, right. ZH
actually having some really happy customers,who gave great reviews with their experiences.
So, to go back to your question about 西瓜[Xīguā] - which is ‘watermelon’, this
short video platform - the audience is muchmore third, fourth, sometimes fifth tier cities.
(13:20):
Really. ZH
If I wanted to create an ecosystem where theviews could actually come back in as inquiries
- and then eventually turns into leads - thenthat wasn't the platform.
Right. ZH
So you've moved away from 抖音 [Dǒuyīn] as well?
ZH (13:37):
I've moved away from 抖音 [Dǒuyīn] because it was so much work. And if eventually
you want to do e-commerce on 抖音 [Dǒuyīn],the products that would work well are things
which are probably lower than 100快 [Kuài].OF: Right.
You know, because it takes much less thinking, for people to just click and buy.
OF (13:55):
Yeah. ZH
Which is not what you're going for. ZH
You’re going for a big holiday… ZH
…To West Africa, or wherever. ZH
OK, so how do you think now the image of Africa in China has changed? What are the
images that Chinese people in general stillhave of Africa?
ZH (14:12):
If you speak on the basis of how you think people in Africa live, a lot of the misconceptions
have remained. Because I get a lot of questionslike “Oh, when you guys were in Ghana, did
you guys wear clothes? I mean, did you havecars?” So a lot of these questions, I still
(14:33):
get asked. I'm like “Did you ever considerthere was also an urban life in Africa, which
is very very vibrant?” They actually getreally shocked. One of the first vlogs I made
was just simply me going out in Nairobi, goingto the parties, going to the clubs, you know,
hanging out with artists. People were like“Whoa, never thought of that”.
OF (14:55):
Wow, yeah. ZH
Yeah, it's this funny mix, where actually you can see the ignorance, but at the same
time you can also appreciate the curiosity.Like, at least…
ZH (15:04):
Right. OF
water over that curiosity, right?ZH: No. You don’t. I mean, I've also learnt
through my process of creating content, howto address these kinds of questions. Because
before I would just get so mad. But I've alsolearnt, it was my responsibility to address
(15:25):
it, and hopefully, turn it into a more positiveperspective…
OF (15:29):
Right ZH
Yeah. And this is kind of why I look at you as a more successful, better version of
what I'm trying to do, for people who don'tunderstand China. Because, you know, part
of what I'm trying to do is to have the imageof like “Oh, well yes, there are some things
which you might disagree with. Fine, but ifyou just go down to the people, people are
(15:52):
all the same.”ZH: Right.
Right? The amount of prejudice there is against Chinese people is massive out there,
as well. And that's half the reason why Iasked you about how you do it, because I also
don't know how to do it, and I thought youmight have a better answer than I do.
ZH (16:07):
Yeah, I definitely don't have the answer to that. We do also have to hold the media
responsible. You know, if we can ask everymedia outlet to exercise their journalistic
morals, maybe we would have an audience thatis more objective, and willing to look at
(16:28):
the bigger picture of things.OF: And is that what you are achieving, in
your way, with your vlog? Like, what has beenthe feedback that you've received from the
work that you do?ZH: Very encouraging. You know, from people
who actually do have a very great impact inthe dialogue that I'm speaking in. Like Eric
from the China Africa Project, down to peoplewho haven't heard any discussion regarding
(16:52):
the China/Africa topic. Yeah.OF: And what does your family say about your
project?ZH: My parents are always supportive with
everything I've done.OF: Nice.
So yeah, they're super happy. OF
gig? Or are you still working in your daytime?ZH: It's, let's say, my part-time gig. Because
(17:16):
the goal for this year was really to focuson tourism. Now, given COVID-19, it's hard
to make a sustainable business out of it.OF: It’s on ice, right? For when the world…
It's on ice, it's on ice. But I'm trying to find different mechanisms to tell the same
story. So for example, the clothes that I'mwearing, I just started a fashion brand, using
(17:41):
African fabric. There's a huge amount of greatAfrican fashion brands. And they seem a bit
intimidating for the Chinese audience. Becausethey’re very loud, they’re bold. So it's
taking elements of those expressions, butinfusing them in a more practical and everyday-wear
(18:04):
format.OF: Great.
So that's the essence behind the fashion project. It's selling quite well. This was
something that came out of COVID-19.OF: And you designed it?
I designed it. OF
sourced the factories here?ZH: Yes, I found a factory in 浦东 [Pǔdōng]
actually.OF: Wow.
(18:25):
Yeah. OF
and which has your eye on the Shanghai takeon African fashion, I can see the story straight
away.ZH: Right.
OF (18:35):
Tell me what the brand of your vlog is. And then does your fashion brand already have
a name?ZH: Yes. So the name of the vlog is 慧玲带你非
[Huìlíng dài nǐ fēi]. It's actually aplay on words, because 飞 [fēi] in Chinese
stands for ‘flying’ as a verb. But it'salso 非洲的’非’ [Fēizhōu de ‘fēi’].
So it’s a play on words that basically says‘Huiling takes you to Africa’.
(18:57):
Nice. ZH
The clothing, it's called Ankara. So ankarais the technical name for African wax fabric.
Ah. ZH
patterns.OF: And then you wash the wax out, and the
colour remains on the fabric.ZH: Yes.
(19:18):
That’s similar to batik in Indonesia. ZH
Right. ZH
Really? ZH
How funny. ZH
And so the object that you brought in - I'm still looking at you, you've been holding
it the whole time - looks very comfy, by theway.
ZH (19:30):
It’s very. OF
which you put into your brand? Or is it justa personal effect?
It's a personal effect. But I think the pattern can definitely be an inspiration of
a future collection. Yeah, why not?OF: Tell me how has your work affected the
way that you live your life?ZH: If I have to be honest, I think the work
(19:57):
has actually made me more pessimistic. BecauseI set out with a particular purpose of, you
know, doing good. But the more involved youget into it, you realise the limitations of
what you as an individual can do. You realisehow much more inequality, ignorance, is out
(20:22):
there? And you wonder if that's the trajectoryof us as a species? It's something I've been
thinking about.OF: I hear you. I think, if you didn't feel
that way, you probably have your head in thesand this year.
Right. OF
(20:44):
doing so on the barest thread of sanity rightnow, the barest thread of positivity. And
I think we are all getting on with it, we'reputting on a brave face. But I think most
of us are inside thinking “Wow, where isthe world going?”
Right. OF
(21:04):
of this year as a blip. And hopefully, wewill all come out of it a bit more positive.
When things are a little less fraught, andthere's less of an excuse to throw blame across
borders. But I share the same view.ZH: Yeah.
OF (21:22):
But I'm 20 years older than you. So I want to encourage people like you - who have
have been so positive, and have been pushingyourself out there - to inject positivity
into the world. To not focus on the negativity,which even people like me exude.
ZH (21:39):
Right. OF
Thunbergs out there. The people who are younger,who do represent the next generation, who
can hold my generation and my parents generationto account, and say “Well no, this is not
the world that my generation will stand for.”ZH: Right.
OF (21:57):
People who are Generation X - which is my generation - we're stuck in between the
boomers…ZH: Right, right.
…And you millennial types. We look more towards you. We’re like “We are stuck,
we really… We need you”. And that's whereI really hope that you will continue what
you're doing, even though it's just one voice.Maybe what it needs is more of an orchestra
(22:19):
- more of a choir of voices - to create moreof a noise that we need. Because we do need
people like you.ZH: I think at the end of the day, I ask myself,
does the fact of knowing that I'm not ableto change the world, does that stop me from
being passionate about these causes? Wantingto tell their stories? It doesn't. So you
(22:44):
just still have to continue doing what youdo.
Well, that's a great way to end the first half of this discussion. Thank you Huiling.
ZH (22:54):
You’re very welcome. OF
OK.
[Part 2]OF: So let's go on to the 10 questions. I'm
looking forward to your answers.ZH: OK.
OF (23:06):
Question 1, what is your favourite China-related fact?
ZH (23:10):
So my favourite thing about China is safety. Before moving back to Shanghai, I was living
in New York. So coming back to Shanghai, goingback home at any hour of the day I want, it
was such a luxury to me.OF: That's right.
Yeah. OF
Yes, yes. OF
It definitely got its edge. OF
(23:36):
word or phrase in Chinese?ZH: Oh, OK. So there's this new thing, 后浪前浪
[hòulàng qiánlàng]. It describes the millennials.前浪 [Qiánlàng] literally translates to
‘waves that came before’.OF: Yeah.
And then 后浪 [hòulàng], it translates to ‘waves that came after.’ So I consider
myself as 前浪 [qiánlàng].OF: You do?
(23:59):
Yes. OF
Because because the kids who are considered 后浪 [hòulàng] are basically 18 by now.
So that's just something funny that's beentrending on Chinese social media.
OF (24:09):
Oh man. If you’re 前浪 [qiánlàng] then what the hell am I? I must be, like,
in the middle of the ocean. There's no waveinvolved.
ZH (24:17):
No. Didn’t make the wave. OF
Is it an equivalent, or is it a whole differentconcept?
I would say it's a new concept. So basically, it describes the culture gap between different
age groups, right? So a kid that's 18, he'stalking about a particular way of dressing
or an underground culture that I don’t understand.He might just finish the conversation saying
(24:42):
“啊，你是前浪 [A, nǐ shì qiánlàng]!”OF: And then that's just it. You can’t…
That’s just it. OF
around the world.ZH: This was made famous by 哔哩哔哩 [Bìlībìlī].
OF (24:54):
Ah yeah, right. ZH
a marketing video for their platform, to positionthemselves as a platform for the millennials.
Yes, the young kids.OF: OK, that's why I'm not on 哔哩哔哩
[Bìlībìlī]. I bet you have an accountthere.
ZH (25:08):
I do. Because in my head I'm like “I'm still eighteen”.
OF (25:12):
Yeah. Question 3, what’s your favourite destination within China?
ZH (25:16):
云南 [Yúnnán]. OF
泸沽湖 [Lúgū Hú], beautiful. This big lake.
OF (25:22):
Yes. ZH
then we went to this very famous NationalPark. It was very pristine.
Question 4, if you left China for good, what would you miss the most, and what would
you miss the least?ZH: What would I miss the most? Convenience,
with Alipay, with 饿了么 [Èleme]… No.Can I change my mind?
(25:46):
You can. ZH
food.OF: OK, but that's too obvious.
ZH (25:55):
I know but there's certain characteristics to the food I like. So it's something soupy,
hot, which basically translates to comfortfood for me. With coriander.
OF (26:07):
Oh, has to have coriander. ZH
Yeah.OF: This is not Shanghainese food though,
right?ZH: No. Not Shanghainese food, anything but
Shanghai.OF: And what about the least, what would you
miss the least?ZH: So I think the least will be the limited
(26:28):
access to platforms like YouTube, Instagram.Wink, wink.
Wink, wink. We all know why we can't access these things in China. Unless there's a special
magic fairy.ZH: Exactly.
Yeah. Is there anything that still surprises you about modern life in China?
ZH (26:45):
The pace of life. I still feel, on a daily basis, I have to learn a great deal to catch
up with the millennials. To know how to speaktheir language in order to communicate with
them.OF: Yeah. 前浪 [Qiánlàng].
前浪 [Qiánlàng], exactly. OF
your favourite place to go, to eat or drinkor just hang out?
(27:07):
This little coffee shop downstairs from my house.
OF (27:10):
Nice. ZH
a coffee shop where the owner is a seriousbiker fan. So sometimes I'm sitting there
surrounded by all these really serious bikers,they’re wearing these heavy leather jackets,
I was like “Whoa, I feel like I'm part oftheir little subculture.”
(27:32):
What is your favourite WeChat sticker? ZH
a smiley face. But it's a very awkward smileyface, with the eyes all twitched up.
Oh. ZH
we have to throw on, as adults in this world.Knowing the negativity is out there, you just
(28:00):
still have to continue.OF: Yeah. What is your go-to song to sing
at KTV?ZH: Ooh, something from Britney Spears.
Oh, nice. ZH
listening to pop music after that.OF: But if there was one, which would it be?
ZH (28:18):
Hit me Baby One More Time. OF
China-related media or sources of informationdo you rely on?
I rely a lot on social media. So 公众号 [Gōngzhònghào] is how I get a lot of my
information. I go on 微博 [Wēibó] everynow and then. And that's about it.
OF (28:38):
Right. ZH
Well, thank you so much Huiling. ZH
And finally, out of everyone you know in China, who should I interview for the next
season of Mosaic of China.ZH: OK, so my recommendation will be Yilei.
She's a Chinese girl, she has a buyers shopin 静安 [Jìng'ān]. She’s been in the
(28:59):
fashion industry for about a decade now. Whatis also interesting is that her dad also lived
years in Africa.OF: Oh, right.
ZH (29:07):
Yeah. So now her buyers shop is dedicated to finding more boutique brands from all over
the world, to bring them to the Chinese audience.OF: Great. I can't wait to meet Yilei, thank
you so much Huiling.ZH: You’re very welcome.
[Outro]OF: I know there are other creators listening,
so maybe you can also relate to the phraseHuiling used, '用爱发电 [yòng'ài fādiàn]'.
(29:30):
I know I certainly do. It's that part of youthat's trying to generate power just using
the fuel that is the passion you put intoyour work. Sometimes that tank is full, and
other times you're just running on fumes.Luckily for us, Huiling still does have plenty
of fuel in her tank, but she has not beenable to travel to Africa since the start of
the pandemic, so it should come as no surpriseto hear that there haven't been any new vlogs
(29:54):
these days. And in fact, she's now workingas the China brand manager for an international
cosmetic brand. But she continues to lookfor any opportunities to work on China/Africa
projects in preparation for the day she cannext travel there again, so definitely reach
out to her if you have any ideas. The mostrecent thing she did was a crossover collaboration
(30:15):
between a Chinese fashion brand and an elephantorphanage in Zimbabwe. I've posted some photos
of the sweaters they made, and I've also postedsome from her fashion brand Ankara, where
you can see how she's using African printsand colours in a way that's more accessible
for the Chinese consumer.
I've also posted a few screenshots from someof Huiling's favourite vlog moments, so you
(30:38):
can find those on the website or on the socialmedia accounts for Mosaic of China, where
I've also included links to her channels onYouTube and 微博 [Wēibó]. You can also
just do a search for 慧玲带你非 [Huìlíngdài nǐ fēi] on WeChat. And apart from that,
you can also see photos of her object - theshuka - not just as a scarf, but also as a
table cloth, and a picnic blanket; as wellas photos of the biker café that's her favourite
(31:03):
place to hang out.
There's a longer version of this episode availablefor PREMIUM subscribers to the show. If you're
sick of hearing me say this every week, thensubscribe! You'll be able to hear, on average,
10-15 minutes of extra content for every singleepisode of the season. Subscribe with one
click by searching for Mosaic of China PREMIUMon Apple Podcasts; or find us on Patreon,
(31:26):
internationally; and 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]in China. Here are some clips from today’s
show.
[Clip 1]ZH: We went to the counter, because we were
told that there was a flight. They said “No,you cannot get on”. So I had to unleash
the kraken.[Clip 2]
You don't know what you don't know. If you have never been freed, you won’t know
you're conforming.[Clip 3]
(31:48):
Oh my god, what are you guys cooking? Is that soil?
[Clip 4]ZH: There was a particular employee of my
dad who stayed with him for over 20 years.[Clip 5]
I would get so excited, and we would buy fried yam.
OF (32:01):
I can see your eyes light up just talking about that.
[End of Audio Clips]
The biggest overlap between Huiling and previousguests is with Noxolo Bhengu, the South African
actress, writer, community leader, and entrepreneurfrom Season 02 Episode 14. Both she and Huiling
share the same philosophy of using casualassociation to improve the understanding between
(32:22):
cultures. And I can’t wait for the two ofthem to hopefully meet each other at the end
of Season party that I’m just starting toorganise. So please listen out for more details
about that if you’ll be in Shanghai on September8th. Apart from that, the way Huiling questioned
how we measure happiness totally remindedme of the episode with Lori Li, the GM of
(32:42):
the private members club Yongfoo Elite fromSeason 01 Episode 10, where she described
how the concept of luxury in China has evolvedfrom material wealth into more spiritual wealth
in this new generation of young Chinese leaders.Of course the mixed feelings that Huiling
has as a content creator is reminiscent ofmy conversation with Michael Zee, the ‘Symmetrybreakfast’
(33:05):
Instagram influencer from Season 01 Episode07. And if you want to hear more about the
fashion angle, and the way a particular ChineseVIP customer dresses, then you need to drop
everything now and listen to the fashion DesignerOcto Cheung from Season 01 Episode 30.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. I had to make three different
(33:28):
versions of the ending to today’s show.If you’re listening to the PREMIUM version,
you’re now going to be treated to an amazing15-minute catch-up with the person who nominated
Huiling for the show, Eric Olander from Season01 Episode 03. If you’re listening to the
REGULAR version internationally, you’regoing to hear 7 minutes of this, which is…
(33:48):
fine. And if you’re listening to the REGULARversion in China, you won’t be hearing any
of it. Eric’s original episode is one thatI can’t get put back online in China, no
matter how many different ways I try to editit. So if you want to hear it, you know where
to go.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Eric, nice to see you.
EO (34:20):
Nice to see you, it’s been a long time OF
180 degrees since we last met each other.EO: Well, here in Vietnam, we haven't had
much COVID. So… we don't have any vaccines,by the way, but we have no COVID. So I don't
know, is that..? OK, I'd rather have no COVIDand no vaccines than COVID and vaccines.
OF (34:38):
Well, that is the major update, because you've already let the cat out of the bag
that you are now in Vietnam.EO: Yeah, so we left in 2019. So right before
you and I spoke is when - right around thattime is when - when we left.
Exactly, I alluded to it in our chat, saying that I got you at a busy time. But
(35:00):
I did not mention at that time that it wasliterally three days before you were leaving
the country.EO: It was my parting gift to China, was to
speak with you.OF: Well, tell me then. So what happened?
Why are you now in Vietnam?EO: Well, I was working for an American advertising
agency with an American client. And that Americanclient was all run by Chinese managers. And
(35:23):
they came to us and said “We do not wantanybody on our account who is not Chinese.”
Really? EO
it was a national thing. When you leave, youobviously lose your visa. And so I could have
probably found something. But it wasn't asexciting as what I came up with, which is
(35:43):
to take the China Africa Project - which isthis thing that I talked about with you prior,
that I've been working on for 10 years - andthen go full time with it. And it's been just
a roller coaster, and exciting and fun. Andbeing here in Vietnam allows me to be right
over the border from China. So I'm in thesame time zone, I'm close to people on WeChat
discussions. And at the same time, as a journalist,and as an independent writer about China,
(36:07):
I don't face the same pressures as if I wasin China. And that has been nice, it takes
a little bit of that anxiety.OF: Yeah.
EO (36:14):
I never really self-censored myself that much. But now I don't have to think about
it at all.OF: Right. And you were saying that actually,
this had been a side-hustle for you whileyou had that job in advertising. But then,
what is it now?EO: Yeah, so I really enjoyed it. I'm glad
I did it. I'm glad I'm not in that businessany more. My roots and my heart are in editorial
(36:34):
journalism, which I've been doing for 35 years.And so the trend I saw was that I don't need
to go work for CNN again, or for the BBC again.If I want to tell the stories that I want,
there are platforms out there that I can justdo it myself. And I'd already built an audience
of, you know, 1-1.5 million followers on socialmedia. And so I said “OK, let's find a way
(36:55):
to monetise a tiny, tiny percentage of thataudience. A half of a percent, a quarter of
a percent. And if I'm able to do that, I wouldhave a perfectly fine living”. And that's
what I've done. So relaunched the website,created a daily newsletter, also created podcasts,
and giving consulting services, and talkingto people. Most of it, though, comes down
(37:16):
to this newsletter. And I spend almost 12hours a day to produce this newsletter.
OF (37:21):
Yeah. EO
or 6 in the morning, and I don't stop until9 or 10 at night. And yet, it never feels
difficult. But if I was working that muchfor any of my old employers, I would be burned
out and frustrated, and I would just be soannoyed all the time. But because we're building
(37:42):
something here, that's what makes it fun andexciting. And that's the thrill of it. Yes,
it's not a lot of money right now. But it'sa five year plan. And that's the key to success
that I find in the media business, particularlyin this social media era. It’s just persistence.
Yeah. Well, going back to our episode, at the end of our interview…
EO (38:02):
You're not gonna make me sing again, are you?
OF (38:04):
No. That was the highlight. EO
tunes, so…OF: I'm not going to embarrass you with anything
like that. But at the end of the interview,you said that one of the best news sources
you liked were the guys at SupChina and TheSinica Podcast.
EO (38:21):
Yeah. OF
a year later, you bloody well joined them.EO: Yes, so I'm part of their podcast network.
Those guys are great, Jeremy Goldkorn, KaiserKuo…
OF (38:32):
Firstly, where's my finder's fee? Because I put you guys together.
EO (38:35):
Did you really? OF
Wow. Your finder's fee is the next time I come to Shanghai, I'll take you out for
a frozen yoghurt. There you go.OF: That is more than I expected.
That’s you finder’s fee. So yeah, so we joined the Sinica network. Last year,
we saw our podcast audience grow by 26%. AndI think that is all because of the SupChina
affiliation. And it's been a great partnership.And the work that those guys do is just rockstar
(39:01):
in my view.OF: Great. Well, I'm going to be releasing
this update at the same time as the episodewith Zhao Huiling, who was the person who
you recommended for Season 02.EO: Oh. Zhao Huiling represents that really
exciting part of the China/Africa relationshipthat needs to be celebrated more. People making
connections on the individual level. Whenshe travels throughout Africa, she's been
(39:23):
there for a long time, she knows people, theyknow her. And it's amazing how quickly people
can transcend the cultural and language divides,with the right attitude. These perceptions
that we create about each other - throughthe news, and through geopolitics - break
down quite quickly when you're on the ground.And Zhao Huiling is really just living proof
of that. And I encourage everybody to go ontoYouTube, to see the videos that she's made.
(39:48):
And the way she is in those videos is literallythe way she is in real life.
OF (39:53):
Nice. Well, thank you for the referral. And thank you for being part of this project,
Eric, I feel like I can fake being seriouswith you, and you can fake being fatuous with
me.EO: No, it’s… No. And it's wonderful,
because I remember you and I had lunch in静安 [Jìng'ān], and you were saying “I'm
gonna start this podcast.” And I was like“Oh, OK.” You know, everybody says they're
(40:13):
gonna start a podcast. And then what theydo is they start the podcast. And three, four,
five episodes into it, all of a sudden theyget busy, it just kind of falls off. That
is 99% of the people who start either blogs,social media, or podcasts. And I'm just so
proud of what you've done with this show.90% of the people on the internet are consumers
(40:34):
of content. Only 9% of people on the internetare editors. Editors are the people who actually
get in, and comment, and actually just modifysomebody else's content. Only 1% of the people
on the internet are creators. And the factis that you've been able to do this for more
than a year puts you in an even more elitegroup, because I think that's the 1/10 of
(40:55):
1%. And that's really neat. And so you shouldbe proud of it, I should be proud of it. Anybody
who has stuck with this - for as long as wehave - should really celebrate that, because
it is it's not easy to do. It's not easy.OF: Well thank you, man. I am going to obviously
edit all of that out, because I can't acceptpraise from you.
EO (41:14):
No, you must keep it in. I'll be very disappointed. And if you don't, I'm recording
here and I will publish it myself.OF: Eric, I hope it's not too long before
we are sharing beers either on a beach inVietnam, or here in 静安 [Jìng'ān] again.
Well, hopefully if I have a Chinese vaccine thrust into me, then I'll be up there in Shanghai.
Hopefully sooner than later.OF: Alright man, great to see you.
(41:37):
OK, cheers. OF
[Trailer]ZH: Hit me Baby One More Time.
OF (00:04):
Wow, she means it.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
I'm really happy to be including Huiling'sstory in this season. Because up until now,
whenever there has been a story about a clashof cultures, it has been in the context of
(00:27):
non-Chinese nationals coming to live in mainlandChina. So the impression this might leave
is that this is a China thing. But no, thisis a universal experience, no matter where
you're from and no matter with what new cultureyou're confronted. So that's why it's useful
to hear the same story from the perspectiveof a Chinese person who has spent the formative
(00:49):
years of her life living outside of China.
More than just that, Huiling also representsthe mindset of the worldly young Shanghainese
professional, who has enjoyed all the benefitsof modern luxury that China's economic progress
has given her, and is now asking themselves"What does it all mean?" And this is where
the Mosaic we're building with this projectisn't just about piecing together stories
(01:11):
across cultures, it's also about the doingthe same across generations.
[Part 1]OF: Well thank you so much Huiling.
ZH (01:20):
No problem. OF
your name? So your name is Zhao Huiling, whatare the tones of your name?
Huiling. OF
Yeah. OF
Exactly. OF
Huiling, nice to meet you here.ZH: You too.
OF (01:35):
We first met, oh, it must have been about a year ago now.
ZH (01:38):
Yeah, time flies by. OF
Yeah. OF
[Start of Audio Clip]Eric OLANDER: I am going to recommend that
you speak with a wonderful woman by the nameof Zhao Huiling, and Zhao Huiling is a vlogger.
She spent an enormous amount of time in Africa,and now she's bringing African life to Chinese
users on social media, through vlogs and WeChatposts and things like that.
(02:01):
[End of Audio Clip]OF: That was our mutual friend Eric Olander.
Absolutely. OF
I did a podcast for Eric on his China Africa Project.
OF (02:13):
Yes. ZH
we developed a friendship out of that. Herecommended me to you, and now I'm doing podcast
for Mosaic.OF: Thank you. And of course, Africa is the
connection. But before we go into that wholestory, tell me what object did you bring today
that in some way represents your life in China?ZH: So I brought a shuka.
(02:38):
Show me. OK, she's getting it out of her bag. I have no idea what that word means.
It could be an animal, for all I know.ZH: So a shuka is basically something the
Maasai tribe - which is predominantly in EastAfrica - they would wear. They’re nomads.
And this is actually something very signatureof their attire. It's very resistant to cold,
(03:06):
because in those areas, it actually gets verycold at night. So they would wear this over
their shoulder, just drape it over their shoulder.And the red is actually a flashy colour which
the lions hate.OF: Oh, so it's to make sure lions don't attack.
ZH (03:19):
Exactly. OF
in Shanghai these days.ZH: No, so I definitely don't use it to fend
myself off from lions. During the winter,during the fall, I wear it as a gigantic scarf
that keeps me from the cold. During the spring,sometimes it appears on my dining table when
(03:40):
I have friends over for dinner, and I justwant something a bit more festive, a bit more
colourful. And I love giving it as a souvenirfor my friends as well. So you know, it's
really something practical they can infuseinto their everyday life.
OF (03:53):
Excellent. And what's it called again? ZH
Shuka, and that is in what language ZH
Swahili, I guess. ZH
OK. Well, you grew up where in Africa? ZH
OK. ZH
So tell us about your upbringing. How come you were in Ghana?
ZH (04:11):
So I'm originally from Shanghai, until I was about 10. I think my dad was just going
through a midlife crisis. He was like “OK,I don't want to be here anymore”. So he
wanted to leave. At that time, my uncle andmy aunt had already moved to Ghana. He was
just supposed to go lie there on the beach,under the coconut trees, for a couple of months.
(04:34):
Never came back.OF: Which meant, who was left in Shanghai?
You and your mother?ZH: Me and my mom. And my mom decided that
she was going to join him. And a few monthsafter, I joined them in Ghana.
OF (04:46):
Wow, and I guess it was Accra, was it? ZH
Tell me about your life there. ZH
school, they didn't have hair. And there weren'ta lot of Chinese kids whose parents sent them
to the local schools. So I was attending alocal school, and all my classmates were Ghanaian.
(05:09):
The fact that I had hair was very interestingfor them. So I became quite popular overnight.
Because all the kids in school were linedup in front of my class, wanting to play with
my hair.OF: Wow.
ZH (05:22):
Yeah. They were just like “No, I don't understand. How could you be born this way?”
So that was really fun.OF: OK, so that was the big culture shock,
was it? Just the hair?ZH: That was the big culture shock. So another
one would be the way we eat. Obviously, by10, I was already using chopsticks, right?
OF (05:41):
Yeah. ZH
their lunchbox and started using their hands.So that was a little cultural shock for me
as well. And there's such a culture of sharing,that it’s unnatural if you took a lunchbox
to school, and you wouldn't want to shareit with your classmate next to you. But I,
(06:01):
you know, grew to it pretty quickly.OF: Yeah. I guess that's a great way for you
to learn about the culture of food, just stealyour neighbour's lunch, right?
ZH (06:11):
Exactly, exactly. OF
are you more likely to accept new things?Or actually, are you more likely to be possessive
about your previous culture?ZH: OK, so this is a good question. Because
my uncle and my aunt, they had a daughter- so, my cousin - who’s two years older
than me. We actually spent the same amountof time in Ghana. She was sent to an international
(06:34):
school, and I was sent to a local school.And she hated people touching her hair, she
hated sharing her food. Because you have totake into consideration, we're all only children.
OF (06:45):
Yeah. ZH
it's just, you know, a level of resistance.She resisted it, probably a lot more than
me. So up until today, she still counts thatas a not-so-pleasant culture shock. While
I just blended in and became one of them.OF: Yeah. It's such a common story.
ZH (07:08):
Yeah. OF
people who put their children into internationalschools here in Shanghai, of course.
Right. OF
wall, which then gets reinforced.ZH: Right.
OF (07:20):
You're not really integrating. I mean, there are people here who've lived in China
for X number of years, and they don't needto really understand the local culture.
ZH (07:27):
Right. OF
I think the school is definitely a background in which, you know, the child gets their world
view from. But I think what's even more thanthat is parenting. You know, my parents were…
I mean, they’d never been to Africa. Andthis was a time where if you told your friends
you're going to Africa, people prayed foryou. They were like “Oh my god, I hope you
(07:51):
come back”. So for my parents to go intosuch a foreign culture, such a foreign land,
but to embrace everything, I think that wasmore important than the school I attended.
OF (08:01):
Wow. ZH
So you're lucky you had those open-minded parents?
ZH (08:05):
Yeah. OF
so much is, it has really informed what youdo these days. And also, I guess, your entire
outlook on the world, correct?ZH: Right.
OF (08:17):
Can you describe what that is? ZH
for the first time, and as soon as they stepoff the plane, something captivates them.
And they start crying, they become emotional.There's definitely certain reasons as to why
this happens. And through my experience ofliving in Africa, I realised this is something
(08:42):
we all strive for, which is freedom. You know,in Shanghai, I think on one hand, we're fighting
for this individuality. On the other hand,you have this extreme conformity. People get
lost. What is true freedom? And I think foranyone who has had the privilege of going
(09:06):
to Africa, they might have some insights intothat particular answer.
Wow. Which is hard to describe, I guess. But is it something about the closeness to
nature? Like, how would you describe whatthat feeling is?
ZH (09:18):
Nature is definitely a big part of it. You don't feel like Homo Sapiens are on Earth
to dominate other species.OF: Right.
You know, you're just a guest. So that gives you a very refreshing perspective, which
sometimes we forget. And secondly, I thinkit's the people that you would come across.
(09:41):
Why are they so damn happy every day? Theydon't have the same measurement of success
as us - buying a car, buying a house - theydon't necessarily use those same measurements.
It's being able to spend time with your family,being in nature. I woke up hungry, there was
this coconut tree, I climbed it, I got a coconut,I'm no longer hungry.
OF (10:04):
No worries. ZH
Yeah. And I think it’s a dangerous image, because sometimes we can also romanticise
that image as well, right?ZH: Yes. So where is the balance? We are chasing
this GDP? Does higher GDP really bring a betterlife to people? And if that's true, what is
(10:25):
the definition of that? I'm not saying everybodyshould just go climb a coconut tree. You definitely
need to have water, roads, basic necessitiesfor people to have security. So how do we
strive for the balance between preservingthe nature around us, developing sustainably,
(10:47):
making sure that the things we do measurehappiness with are the true factors that bring
fulfilment to people. And through the workthat I'm doing, through the content that I'm
creating, maybe that would raise some questions.OF: Right. So let's talk about that, then.
ZH (11:07):
Yeah. OF
So I am a vlogger. Every time I travel back to Africa, I shoot a lot of footage of
the people I meet, of the organisations Icome across, and the works they do. So I create
all of these into vlogs, which I publish onmy social media.
OF (11:27):
OK, very succinctly described. Let me pick away at what you just said, then. So
first of all, social media here in China,what channels do you use?
ZH (11:37):
So I am on WeChat, 公众号 [Gōngzhònghào], I have an official WeChat account. I am on
微博 [Wēibó]. And all my vlogs, I haveEnglish and Chinese, right. So if I'm speaking
Chinese, I have English subtitles. And theother way around.
OF (11:53):
When you and I first met, I remember you mentioning 西瓜 [Xīguā], you used to use
西瓜 [Xīguā].ZH: Yes.
And 抖音 [Dǒuyīn] as well, right? ZH
Do you still use those, or have you now narrowed it down?
ZH (12:03):
So when we first met, I just started this vlog project. And we have the saying in Chinese
- especially for content creators, which anybodythat's doing the same thing would have a huge
resonance with - which is 用爱发电 [yòng’àifādiàn], you're generating power with love.
OF (12:21):
Oh. ZH
So at the beginning, what I was 用爱发电[yòng’ài fādiàn]. I was so passionate
about it, I loved what I was doing so much,it was really pure love. And then eventually,
I realised “OK, I need to figure out a businessmodel. How can I be compensated to allow me
(12:45):
to continue to do this?”OF: Right.
ZH (12:47):
Right? So it came down to the idea of doing bespoke tourism for Chinese to Africa.
So that was the direction I took. Not workingso well this year…
OF (12:57):
Yeah, right. ZH
actually having some really happy customers,who gave great reviews with their experiences.
So, to go back to your question about 西瓜[Xīguā] - which is ‘watermelon’, this
short video platform - the audience is muchmore third, fourth, sometimes fifth tier cities.
(13:20):
Really. ZH
If I wanted to create an ecosystem where theviews could actually come back in as inquiries
- and then eventually turns into leads - thenthat wasn't the platform.
Right. ZH
So you've moved away from 抖音 [Dǒuyīn] as well?
ZH (13:37):
I've moved away from 抖音 [Dǒuyīn] because it was so much work. And if eventually
you want to do e-commerce on 抖音 [Dǒuyīn],the products that would work well are things
which are probably lower than 100快 [Kuài].OF: Right.
You know, because it takes much less thinking, for people to just click and buy.
OF (13:55):
Yeah. ZH
Which is not what you're going for. ZH
You’re going for a big holiday… ZH
…To West Africa, or wherever. ZH
OK, so how do you think now the image of Africa in China has changed? What are the
images that Chinese people in general stillhave of Africa?
ZH (14:12):
If you speak on the basis of how you think people in Africa live, a lot of the misconceptions
have remained. Because I get a lot of questionslike “Oh, when you guys were in Ghana, did
you guys wear clothes? I mean, did you havecars?” So a lot of these questions, I still
(14:33):
get asked. I'm like “Did you ever considerthere was also an urban life in Africa, which
is very very vibrant?” They actually getreally shocked. One of the first vlogs I made
was just simply me going out in Nairobi, goingto the parties, going to the clubs, you know,
hanging out with artists. People were like“Whoa, never thought of that”.
OF (14:55):
Wow, yeah. ZH
Yeah, it's this funny mix, where actually you can see the ignorance, but at the same
time you can also appreciate the curiosity.Like, at least…
ZH (15:04):
Right. OF
water over that curiosity, right?ZH: No. You don’t. I mean, I've also learnt
through my process of creating content, howto address these kinds of questions. Because
before I would just get so mad. But I've alsolearnt, it was my responsibility to address
(15:25):
it, and hopefully, turn it into a more positiveperspective…
OF (15:29):
Right ZH
Yeah. And this is kind of why I look at you as a more successful, better version of
what I'm trying to do, for people who don'tunderstand China. Because, you know, part
of what I'm trying to do is to have the imageof like “Oh, well yes, there are some things
which you might disagree with. Fine, but ifyou just go down to the people, people are
(15:52):
all the same.”ZH: Right.
Right? The amount of prejudice there is against Chinese people is massive out there,
as well. And that's half the reason why Iasked you about how you do it, because I also
don't know how to do it, and I thought youmight have a better answer than I do.
ZH (16:07):
Yeah, I definitely don't have the answer to that. We do also have to hold the media
responsible. You know, if we can ask everymedia outlet to exercise their journalistic
morals, maybe we would have an audience thatis more objective, and willing to look at
(16:28):
the bigger picture of things.OF: And is that what you are achieving, in
your way, with your vlog? Like, what has beenthe feedback that you've received from the
work that you do?ZH: Very encouraging. You know, from people
who actually do have a very great impact inthe dialogue that I'm speaking in. Like Eric
from the China Africa Project, down to peoplewho haven't heard any discussion regarding
(16:52):
the China/Africa topic. Yeah.OF: And what does your family say about your
project?ZH: My parents are always supportive with
everything I've done.OF: Nice.
So yeah, they're super happy. OF
gig? Or are you still working in your daytime?ZH: It's, let's say, my part-time gig. Because
(17:16):
the goal for this year was really to focuson tourism. Now, given COVID-19, it's hard
to make a sustainable business out of it.OF: It’s on ice, right? For when the world…
It's on ice, it's on ice. But I'm trying to find different mechanisms to tell the same
story. So for example, the clothes that I'mwearing, I just started a fashion brand, using
(17:41):
African fabric. There's a huge amount of greatAfrican fashion brands. And they seem a bit
intimidating for the Chinese audience. Becausethey’re very loud, they’re bold. So it's
taking elements of those expressions, butinfusing them in a more practical and everyday-wear
(18:04):
format.OF: Great.
So that's the essence behind the fashion project. It's selling quite well. This was
something that came out of COVID-19.OF: And you designed it?
I designed it. OF
sourced the factories here?ZH: Yes, I found a factory in 浦东 [Pǔdōng]
actually.OF: Wow.
(18:25):
Yeah. OF
and which has your eye on the Shanghai takeon African fashion, I can see the story straight
away.ZH: Right.
OF (18:35):
Tell me what the brand of your vlog is. And then does your fashion brand already have
a name?ZH: Yes. So the name of the vlog is 慧玲带你非
[Huìlíng dài nǐ fēi]. It's actually aplay on words, because 飞 [fēi] in Chinese
stands for ‘flying’ as a verb. But it'salso 非洲的’非’ [Fēizhōu de ‘fēi’].
So it’s a play on words that basically says‘Huiling takes you to Africa’.
(18:57):
Nice. ZH
The clothing, it's called Ankara. So ankarais the technical name for African wax fabric.
Ah. ZH
patterns.OF: And then you wash the wax out, and the
colour remains on the fabric.ZH: Yes.
(19:18):
That’s similar to batik in Indonesia. ZH
Right. ZH
Really? ZH
How funny. ZH
And so the object that you brought in - I'm still looking at you, you've been holding
it the whole time - looks very comfy, by theway.
ZH (19:30):
It’s very. OF
which you put into your brand? Or is it justa personal effect?
It's a personal effect. But I think the pattern can definitely be an inspiration of
a future collection. Yeah, why not?OF: Tell me how has your work affected the
way that you live your life?ZH: If I have to be honest, I think the work
(19:57):
has actually made me more pessimistic. BecauseI set out with a particular purpose of, you
know, doing good. But the more involved youget into it, you realise the limitations of
what you as an individual can do. You realisehow much more inequality, ignorance, is out
(20:22):
there? And you wonder if that's the trajectoryof us as a species? It's something I've been
thinking about.OF: I hear you. I think, if you didn't feel
that way, you probably have your head in thesand this year.
Right. OF
(20:44):
doing so on the barest thread of sanity rightnow, the barest thread of positivity. And
I think we are all getting on with it, we'reputting on a brave face. But I think most
of us are inside thinking “Wow, where isthe world going?”
Right. OF
(21:04):
of this year as a blip. And hopefully, wewill all come out of it a bit more positive.
When things are a little less fraught, andthere's less of an excuse to throw blame across
borders. But I share the same view.ZH: Yeah.
OF (21:22):
But I'm 20 years older than you. So I want to encourage people like you - who have
have been so positive, and have been pushingyourself out there - to inject positivity
into the world. To not focus on the negativity,which even people like me exude.
ZH (21:39):
Right. OF
Thunbergs out there. The people who are younger,who do represent the next generation, who
can hold my generation and my parents generationto account, and say “Well no, this is not
the world that my generation will stand for.”ZH: Right.
OF (21:57):
People who are Generation X - which is my generation - we're stuck in between the
boomers…ZH: Right, right.
…And you millennial types. We look more towards you. We’re like “We are stuck,
we really… We need you”. And that's whereI really hope that you will continue what
you're doing, even though it's just one voice.Maybe what it needs is more of an orchestra
(22:19):
- more of a choir of voices - to create moreof a noise that we need. Because we do need
people like you.ZH: I think at the end of the day, I ask myself,
does the fact of knowing that I'm not ableto change the world, does that stop me from
being passionate about these causes? Wantingto tell their stories? It doesn't. So you
(22:44):
just still have to continue doing what youdo.
Well, that's a great way to end the first half of this discussion. Thank you Huiling.
ZH (22:54):
You’re very welcome. OF
OK.
[Part 2]OF: So let's go on to the 10 questions. I'm
looking forward to your answers.ZH: OK.
OF (23:06):
Question 1, what is your favourite China-related fact?
ZH (23:10):
So my favourite thing about China is safety. Before moving back to Shanghai, I was living
in New York. So coming back to Shanghai, goingback home at any hour of the day I want, it
was such a luxury to me.OF: That's right.
Yeah. OF
Yes, yes. OF
It definitely got its edge. OF
(23:36):
word or phrase in Chinese?ZH: Oh, OK. So there's this new thing, 后浪前浪
[hòulàng qiánlàng]. It describes the millennials.前浪 [Qiánlàng] literally translates to
‘waves that came before’.OF: Yeah.
And then 后浪 [hòulàng], it translates to ‘waves that came after.’ So I consider
myself as 前浪 [qiánlàng].OF: You do?
(23:59):
Yes. OF
Because because the kids who are considered 后浪 [hòulàng] are basically 18 by now.
So that's just something funny that's beentrending on Chinese social media.
OF (24:09):
Oh man. If you’re 前浪 [qiánlàng] then what the hell am I? I must be, like,
in the middle of the ocean. There's no waveinvolved.
ZH (24:17):
No. Didn’t make the wave. OF
Is it an equivalent, or is it a whole differentconcept?
I would say it's a new concept. So basically, it describes the culture gap between different
age groups, right? So a kid that's 18, he'stalking about a particular way of dressing
or an underground culture that I don’t understand.He might just finish the conversation saying
(24:42):
“啊，你是前浪 [A, nǐ shì qiánlàng]!”OF: And then that's just it. You can’t…
That’s just it. OF
around the world.ZH: This was made famous by 哔哩哔哩 [Bìlībìlī].
OF (24:54):
Ah yeah, right. ZH
a marketing video for their platform, to positionthemselves as a platform for the millennials.
Yes, the young kids.OF: OK, that's why I'm not on 哔哩哔哩
[Bìlībìlī]. I bet you have an accountthere.
ZH (25:08):
I do. Because in my head I'm like “I'm still eighteen”.
OF (25:12):
Yeah. Question 3, what’s your favourite destination within China?
ZH (25:16):
云南 [Yúnnán]. OF
泸沽湖 [Lúgū Hú], beautiful. This big lake.
OF (25:22):
Yes. ZH
then we went to this very famous NationalPark. It was very pristine.
Question 4, if you left China for good, what would you miss the most, and what would
you miss the least?ZH: What would I miss the most? Convenience,
with Alipay, with 饿了么 [Èleme]… No.Can I change my mind?
(25:46):
You can. ZH
food.OF: OK, but that's too obvious.
ZH (25:55):
I know but there's certain characteristics to the food I like. So it's something soupy,
hot, which basically translates to comfortfood for me. With coriander.
OF (26:07):
Oh, has to have coriander. ZH
Yeah.OF: This is not Shanghainese food though,
right?ZH: No. Not Shanghainese food, anything but
Shanghai.OF: And what about the least, what would you
miss the least?ZH: So I think the least will be the limited
(26:28):
access to platforms like YouTube, Instagram.Wink, wink.
Wink, wink. We all know why we can't access these things in China. Unless there's a special
magic fairy.ZH: Exactly.
Yeah. Is there anything that still surprises you about modern life in China?
ZH (26:45):
The pace of life. I still feel, on a daily basis, I have to learn a great deal to catch
up with the millennials. To know how to speaktheir language in order to communicate with
them.OF: Yeah. 前浪 [Qiánlàng].
前浪 [Qiánlàng], exactly. OF
your favourite place to go, to eat or drinkor just hang out?
(27:07):
This little coffee shop downstairs from my house.
OF (27:10):
Nice. ZH
a coffee shop where the owner is a seriousbiker fan. So sometimes I'm sitting there
surrounded by all these really serious bikers,they’re wearing these heavy leather jackets,
I was like “Whoa, I feel like I'm part oftheir little subculture.”
(27:32):
What is your favourite WeChat sticker? ZH
a smiley face. But it's a very awkward smileyface, with the eyes all twitched up.
Oh. ZH
we have to throw on, as adults in this world.Knowing the negativity is out there, you just
(28:00):
still have to continue.OF: Yeah. What is your go-to song to sing
at KTV?ZH: Ooh, something from Britney Spears.
Oh, nice. ZH
listening to pop music after that.OF: But if there was one, which would it be?
ZH (28:18):
Hit me Baby One More Time. OF
China-related media or sources of informationdo you rely on?
I rely a lot on social media. So 公众号 [Gōngzhònghào] is how I get a lot of my
information. I go on 微博 [Wēibó] everynow and then. And that's about it.
OF (28:38):
Right. ZH
Well, thank you so much Huiling. ZH
And finally, out of everyone you know in China, who should I interview for the next
season of Mosaic of China.ZH: OK, so my recommendation will be Yilei.
She's a Chinese girl, she has a buyers shopin 静安 [Jìng'ān]. She’s been in the
(28:59):
fashion industry for about a decade now. Whatis also interesting is that her dad also lived
years in Africa.OF: Oh, right.
ZH (29:07):
Yeah. So now her buyers shop is dedicated to finding more boutique brands from all over
the world, to bring them to the Chinese audience.OF: Great. I can't wait to meet Yilei, thank
you so much Huiling.ZH: You’re very welcome.
[Outro]OF: I know there are other creators listening,
so maybe you can also relate to the phraseHuiling used, '用爱发电 [yòng'ài fādiàn]'.
(29:30):
I know I certainly do. It's that part of youthat's trying to generate power just using
the fuel that is the passion you put intoyour work. Sometimes that tank is full, and
other times you're just running on fumes.Luckily for us, Huiling still does have plenty
of fuel in her tank, but she has not beenable to travel to Africa since the start of
the pandemic, so it should come as no surpriseto hear that there haven't been any new vlogs
(29:54):
these days. And in fact, she's now workingas the China brand manager for an international
cosmetic brand. But she continues to lookfor any opportunities to work on China/Africa
projects in preparation for the day she cannext travel there again, so definitely reach
out to her if you have any ideas. The mostrecent thing she did was a crossover collaboration
(30:15):
between a Chinese fashion brand and an elephantorphanage in Zimbabwe. I've posted some photos
of the sweaters they made, and I've also postedsome from her fashion brand Ankara, where
you can see how she's using African printsand colours in a way that's more accessible
for the Chinese consumer.
I've also posted a few screenshots from someof Huiling's favourite vlog moments, so you
(30:38):
can find those on the website or on the socialmedia accounts for Mosaic of China, where
I've also included links to her channels onYouTube and 微博 [Wēibó]. You can also
just do a search for 慧玲带你非 [Huìlíngdài nǐ fēi] on WeChat. And apart from that,
you can also see photos of her object - theshuka - not just as a scarf, but also as a
table cloth, and a picnic blanket; as wellas photos of the biker café that's her favourite
(31:03):
place to hang out.
There's a longer version of this episode availablefor PREMIUM subscribers to the show. If you're
sick of hearing me say this every week, thensubscribe! You'll be able to hear, on average,
10-15 minutes of extra content for every singleepisode of the season. Subscribe with one
click by searching for Mosaic of China PREMIUMon Apple Podcasts; or find us on Patreon,
(31:26):
internationally; and 爱发电 [Àifādiàn]in China. Here are some clips from today’s
show.
[Clip 1]ZH: We went to the counter, because we were
told that there was a flight. They said “No,you cannot get on”. So I had to unleash
the kraken.[Clip 2]
You don't know what you don't know. If you have never been freed, you won’t know
you're conforming.[Clip 3]
(31:48):
Oh my god, what are you guys cooking? Is that soil?
[Clip 4]ZH: There was a particular employee of my
dad who stayed with him for over 20 years.[Clip 5]
I would get so excited, and we would buy fried yam.
OF (32:01):
I can see your eyes light up just talking about that.
[End of Audio Clips]
The biggest overlap between Huiling and previousguests is with Noxolo Bhengu, the South African
actress, writer, community leader, and entrepreneurfrom Season 02 Episode 14. Both she and Huiling
share the same philosophy of using casualassociation to improve the understanding between
(32:22):
cultures. And I can’t wait for the two ofthem to hopefully meet each other at the end
of Season party that I’m just starting toorganise. So please listen out for more details
about that if you’ll be in Shanghai on September8th. Apart from that, the way Huiling questioned
how we measure happiness totally remindedme of the episode with Lori Li, the GM of
(32:42):
the private members club Yongfoo Elite fromSeason 01 Episode 10, where she described
how the concept of luxury in China has evolvedfrom material wealth into more spiritual wealth
in this new generation of young Chinese leaders.Of course the mixed feelings that Huiling
has as a content creator is reminiscent ofmy conversation with Michael Zee, the ‘Symmetrybreakfast’
(33:05):
Instagram influencer from Season 01 Episode07. And if you want to hear more about the
fashion angle, and the way a particular ChineseVIP customer dresses, then you need to drop
everything now and listen to the fashion DesignerOcto Cheung from Season 01 Episode 30.
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. I had to make three different
(33:28):
versions of the ending to today’s show.If you’re listening to the PREMIUM version,
you’re now going to be treated to an amazing15-minute catch-up with the person who nominated
Huiling for the show, Eric Olander from Season01 Episode 03. If you’re listening to the
REGULAR version internationally, you’regoing to hear 7 minutes of this, which is…
(33:48):
fine. And if you’re listening to the REGULARversion in China, you won’t be hearing any
of it. Eric’s original episode is one thatI can’t get put back online in China, no
matter how many different ways I try to editit. So if you want to hear it, you know where
to go.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: Eric, nice to see you.
EO (34:20):
Nice to see you, it’s been a long time OF
180 degrees since we last met each other.EO: Well, here in Vietnam, we haven't had
much COVID. So… we don't have any vaccines,by the way, but we have no COVID. So I don't
know, is that..? OK, I'd rather have no COVIDand no vaccines than COVID and vaccines.
OF (34:38):
Well, that is the major update, because you've already let the cat out of the bag
that you are now in Vietnam.EO: Yeah, so we left in 2019. So right before
you and I spoke is when - right around thattime is when - when we left.
Exactly, I alluded to it in our chat, saying that I got you at a busy time. But
(35:00):
I did not mention at that time that it wasliterally three days before you were leaving
the country.EO: It was my parting gift to China, was to
speak with you.OF: Well, tell me then. So what happened?
Why are you now in Vietnam?EO: Well, I was working for an American advertising
agency with an American client. And that Americanclient was all run by Chinese managers. And
(35:23):
they came to us and said “We do not wantanybody on our account who is not Chinese.”
Really? EO
it was a national thing. When you leave, youobviously lose your visa. And so I could have
probably found something. But it wasn't asexciting as what I came up with, which is
(35:43):
to take the China Africa Project - which isthis thing that I talked about with you prior,
that I've been working on for 10 years - andthen go full time with it. And it's been just
a roller coaster, and exciting and fun. Andbeing here in Vietnam allows me to be right
over the border from China. So I'm in thesame time zone, I'm close to people on WeChat
discussions. And at the same time, as a journalist,and as an independent writer about China,
(36:07):
I don't face the same pressures as if I wasin China. And that has been nice, it takes
a little bit of that anxiety.OF: Yeah.
EO (36:14):
I never really self-censored myself that much. But now I don't have to think about
it at all.OF: Right. And you were saying that actually,
this had been a side-hustle for you whileyou had that job in advertising. But then,
what is it now?EO: Yeah, so I really enjoyed it. I'm glad
I did it. I'm glad I'm not in that businessany more. My roots and my heart are in editorial
(36:34):
journalism, which I've been doing for 35 years.And so the trend I saw was that I don't need
to go work for CNN again, or for the BBC again.If I want to tell the stories that I want,
there are platforms out there that I can justdo it myself. And I'd already built an audience
of, you know, 1-1.5 million followers on socialmedia. And so I said “OK, let's find a way
(36:55):
to monetise a tiny, tiny percentage of thataudience. A half of a percent, a quarter of
a percent. And if I'm able to do that, I wouldhave a perfectly fine living”. And that's
what I've done. So relaunched the website,created a daily newsletter, also created podcasts,
and giving consulting services, and talkingto people. Most of it, though, comes down
(37:16):
to this newsletter. And I spend almost 12hours a day to produce this newsletter.
OF (37:21):
Yeah. EO
or 6 in the morning, and I don't stop until9 or 10 at night. And yet, it never feels
difficult. But if I was working that muchfor any of my old employers, I would be burned
out and frustrated, and I would just be soannoyed all the time. But because we're building
(37:42):
something here, that's what makes it fun andexciting. And that's the thrill of it. Yes,
it's not a lot of money right now. But it'sa five year plan. And that's the key to success
that I find in the media business, particularlyin this social media era. It’s just persistence.
Yeah. Well, going back to our episode, at the end of our interview…
EO (38:02):
You're not gonna make me sing again, are you?
OF (38:04):
No. That was the highlight. EO
tunes, so…OF: I'm not going to embarrass you with anything
like that. But at the end of the interview,you said that one of the best news sources
you liked were the guys at SupChina and TheSinica Podcast.
EO (38:21):
Yeah. OF
a year later, you bloody well joined them.EO: Yes, so I'm part of their podcast network.
Those guys are great, Jeremy Goldkorn, KaiserKuo…
OF (38:32):
Firstly, where's my finder's fee? Because I put you guys together.
EO (38:35):
Did you really? OF
Wow. Your finder's fee is the next time I come to Shanghai, I'll take you out for
a frozen yoghurt. There you go.OF: That is more than I expected.
That’s you finder’s fee. So yeah, so we joined the Sinica network. Last year,
we saw our podcast audience grow by 26%. AndI think that is all because of the SupChina
affiliation. And it's been a great partnership.And the work that those guys do is just rockstar
(39:01):
in my view.OF: Great. Well, I'm going to be releasing
this update at the same time as the episodewith Zhao Huiling, who was the person who
you recommended for Season 02.EO: Oh. Zhao Huiling represents that really
exciting part of the China/Africa relationshipthat needs to be celebrated more. People making
connections on the individual level. Whenshe travels throughout Africa, she's been
(39:23):
there for a long time, she knows people, theyknow her. And it's amazing how quickly people
can transcend the cultural and language divides,with the right attitude. These perceptions
that we create about each other - throughthe news, and through geopolitics - break
down quite quickly when you're on the ground.And Zhao Huiling is really just living proof
of that. And I encourage everybody to go ontoYouTube, to see the videos that she's made.
(39:48):
And the way she is in those videos is literallythe way she is in real life.
OF (39:53):
Nice. Well, thank you for the referral. And thank you for being part of this project,
Eric, I feel like I can fake being seriouswith you, and you can fake being fatuous with
me.EO: No, it’s… No. And it's wonderful,
because I remember you and I had lunch in静安 [Jìng'ān], and you were saying “I'm
gonna start this podcast.” And I was like“Oh, OK.” You know, everybody says they're
(40:13):
gonna start a podcast. And then what theydo is they start the podcast. And three, four,
five episodes into it, all of a sudden theyget busy, it just kind of falls off. That
is 99% of the people who start either blogs,social media, or podcasts. And I'm just so
proud of what you've done with this show.90% of the people on the internet are consumers
(40:34):
of content. Only 9% of people on the internetare editors. Editors are the people who actually
get in, and comment, and actually just modifysomebody else's content. Only 1% of the people
on the internet are creators. And the factis that you've been able to do this for more
than a year puts you in an even more elitegroup, because I think that's the 1/10 of
(40:55):
1%. And that's really neat. And so you shouldbe proud of it, I should be proud of it. Anybody
who has stuck with this - for as long as wehave - should really celebrate that, because
it is it's not easy to do. It's not easy.OF: Well thank you, man. I am going to obviously
edit all of that out, because I can't acceptpraise from you.
EO (41:14):
No, you must keep it in. I'll be very disappointed. And if you don't, I'm recording
here and I will publish it myself.OF: Eric, I hope it's not too long before
we are sharing beers either on a beach inVietnam, or here in 静安 [Jìng'ān] again.
Well, hopefully if I have a Chinese vaccine thrust into me, then I'll be up there in Shanghai.
Hopefully sooner than later.OF: Alright man, great to see you.
(41:37):
OK, cheers. OF
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