March 22, 2021 • 34 mins
Buildings, buildings, buildings. There has been a decades-long construction boom in China, and behind every building is an architect. Wendy Saunders has witnessed this boom, and as Co-Owner and Principal Architect of AIM Architecture, has created a niche in boutique design projects. In today's episode, we hear how Wendy has teamed up with Chinese clients such as the cosmetics brand HARMAY to bring a modern European design sensibility to the consumer-centric world of retail and hospitality in China. And as you'll hear from our conversation, she has done so with a healthy dose of pragmatism and good humour. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 00:57 - Part 1 22:34 - Part 2 31:36 - Outro Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-12-wendy-saunders. Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]WS: I need
to tell them what colour theyneed to paint the wall? I mean,
just paint it the colour that you want it to be. Imean, if you like pink, paint it pink, who cares?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We’re already well into the second season ofthis project, and in almost every episode we’ve
(00:26):
mentioned the pace of construction, and thedevelopment of the built environment in China
over the last decade. So it’s about time we hadan architect represented in the Mosaic. My guest
today grew up in Belgium, is half Flemish and halfEnglish, and works alongside her Dutch husband,
and you’ll hear how she integrates a Europeanperspective into the story of her life and work
(00:50):
in China. We cover the rest of her intro veryearly on in our chat, so let’s get on with it.
[Part 1]OF:
Let's just introduce you properly. So youare the chief architect? What's your title?
WS (01:05):
Yeah, you could say that. I’m the owner, kind of I’m the owner, kind of Co-Owner and
Chief Architect of AIM Architecture.OF: How do you spell that, aim? A.I.M?
A.I.M. OF
coming in, Wendy. Oh, I should probably say yourfull name as well. So you're ‘Wendy Saunders’.
Yes. OF
in some way describes your life in China?WS: This one, this object.
OF (01:32):
I'm intrigued, I have no idea what I'm looking at. So tell me what's going on.
WS (01:35):
This is a sample of an object that we wanted to make for a project. And we never made it in
the end, because it became too complicated, andstuff like that. But it's a rubber mould. And
we wanted to use it for a seat of a chair. So wedid a lot of testing with that. And in the end, we
(01:55):
did the full rubber one, which of course is thentoo hard to sit. But it was kind of also a funny
thing, maybe you don't need to sit, it's just kindof an object to have in the house. And I kind of,
in my head I called it ‘The King Seat’ because ofthe crown-y spikes. But it's very uncomfortable.
So it has this kind of duality to it, right?OF: Oh, I see. So it's about being high profile,
(02:18):
being high status, but also inflicting pain.WS: Exactly. Why I brought it here,
is because it really shows what was interestingin the beginning, what always fascinated me
to be in China. When I first arrived as anarchitect, it was just, everywhere on the street,
people were making things. You used to have a lotof these small stores and small little workshops,
(02:40):
and you had no clue what they're reallymaking. But you could just feel it everywhere,
they were doing things and making things.And that was really exciting, everywhere
people were producing stuff. And now we're part ofthat community, of course, because we make a lot
of furniture, or pieces, or things, and interiors,or buildings. So it's a big part of what is China
(03:03):
for us. And I remember also, kind of, our firstoffice tables that we made, we made on the street.
This guy, they used to make window frames, and wejust thought “How cool is that?” To kind of just
design a table that is made specifically with thestuff that he has. And it was it was really fun,
to make something like that, which otherwise youwould never do. Because he just did it with the
(03:26):
pieces that he had in the shack, kind of thing.OF: Yes. That is a great jumping-off point,
because I think you've just described oneof the conflicting things that you have
to do as an architect (03:35):
to balance the style, with the practical use, right?
WS (03:40):
Yes. OF
buildings and you think “Oh, no expense spared,look at this amazing shiny building”. And then
you realise “Oh, wait a minute, the qualitywasn't quite what you first expected”, right?
Yes, that is, I think, the constant dilemma here. But to be on the positive side,
now it is changing a lot, I think that the qualityis improving immensely. And also the knowledge
(04:02):
of technology, and the knowledge of how things aremade, is also really changing a lot. Because in
the beginning, I think a lot of these workers- these construction workers - they come from
the countryside, they have no formal educationwhatsoever. And they used to come to work for part
of the year when the farm was not doing well. Andthey used to work in construction. And that was…
(04:27):
Some people in the team, of course, wereknowledgeable, but actually a lot of people,
who actually were making the things, did not haveany construction background, or… There's not a
school that you go to learn construction,or masonry, or anything like that. So
if you start thinking about it, it's very normalthat they had to go through that whole process.
OF (04:49):
Well, we're touching upon this subject, but let me ask you outright then. So
what is the state of architecture right now?WS: Well it's doing extremely well.
There's so much going on. And again, the evolutionthat we've gone through, or that I've seen…
When we arrived, and we wanted to start a smallpractice, it was really very difficult to find a
(05:11):
client, and to actually have a few staff toactually support you. Because nobody wanted
to work in a small company, it was totallynot interesting for them, everybody would
want to work in a 500-people company, becauseit was secure, and that's what China at that
time was. And if you see now, there are so manyindependent smaller designers, architects, and
they've travelled, they're better educated, orthey're educated abroad or wherever, but they're
(05:36):
really very interested in what's going on.OF: Let’s go back to when you first came. So
explain what the world was like in China then.WS: There were just a lot of changes going on.
And I think everybody was quite surprisedand astonished about the tabula rasa that
was going through, with little respect- at that time - of the old, maybe.
(05:57):
Which again, now is totally changed, whichis great. I don't think at that moment
I dared to judge it, because you also don't reallyunderstand it. I mean, the conditions that a
lot of these buildings were in, were also notgreat. As a tourist, you pass by and think “Oh,
how cute”, but actually the conditions for thepeople who live there are not really… I mean,
(06:20):
you would not want to live there.OF: Yeah.
WS (06:21):
So maybe many things got destroyed that shouldn't have, but it is also kind of like
an evolution of learning. And I think we - inEurope, anyway - it took hundreds of years to
go through that. Well, here they did insuch a short time. It's kind of normal,
it’s kind of learning through doing, basically.OF: Mmm. Which is something you can say about
(06:44):
China writ large, across everything.WS: Yes.
OF (06:46):
It’s this trying, iterating, failing, making mistakes, trying again, making new mistakes…
WS (06:51):
Yeah. OF
these are building-sized mistakes, right?WS: Yes. But it makes it also kind of a bold…
It has a boldness to it, and it’s also… Architectsin Europe - I can only speak for European
architects, but - they're very serious. Youknow, they think they can change the world. And
(07:15):
in the back of my mind, I also still think I cando that. But it makes everything very serious,
and you don't take things lightly, because it hasthis huge responsibility to it. It is. But on the
other hand, you know, not everything has to beliked by everybody, not everything has to be…
(07:37):
Things can just sometimes be a little bit off,or a little bit weird, or a little bit funny. And
it is also OK, it kind of also makes a city, acity. It makes the urban fabric a lot richer.
In the beginning, when I came to Shanghai,the neon was amazing. I loved it, you know,
it makes everything so happy and so vibrant. Andit was, for me truly, like this cliché of Asia.
(08:01):
And then when I went to Europe, it's so boring.OF: Right.
You know, everything is so quaint, and so perfect. Or they try at least to be,
you know. And if it's not perfect, it’sderelict. There's not really a lot in the middle.
And I think this kind of freedom, a little bit,in a city is very refreshing. And I think that
(08:22):
that liveliness, when I came to China, gave mea huge sense of freedom as a designer, actually.
OF (08:28):
Right, how interesting. And I guess it's also a consequence of,
as you've already mentioned, the fast pace ofchange. Where you see it happening before you, so
it's much more obvious to talk about, right?WS: Yeah, in Europe, I remember when… Before
coming to China, I lived in Amsterdam.And when we left Amsterdam to come here,
they were redoing the Amsterdamstation, and it was like a huge building
(08:53):
pit. And they were doing the second metroline, or something. And I think 12 years later,
they were still doing exactly that. And theywere still building the second metro line. Well,
when I arrived in Shanghai, there was a Number 1and a Number 2 line. And now how many do you have?
Fifteen? Yeah. WS
(09:14):
looking, going back and forthand thinking “Wow, you know,
what are we doing?” Of course there's a darkside to that, especially in interiors - which
is also what I also do - the speed, andthings that get built and knocked down,
is sometimes shocking in the sense of how muchwaste it creates, and how much energy it wastes.
(09:40):
And I think that is something thatnot a lot of people think about.
But I think it also does change when it's aboutmaking a clear business plan, or… It used to be
“I'm just going to do this”. And “I'm just goingto take a chance and make a little store”. But
they had no real idea what they were going todo with it. Or didn't really do the numbers
(10:01):
properly. So they failed. And I think now becausethings have gotten a lot more expensive - also
construction has gotten a lot more expensive- which is a good thing, because people think
maybe a little bit harder about “What do I reallywant to do?” And “What effect will it have?” And
“How will my business be sustainable, at least fora few years?” All these factors will bring change,
(10:24):
and I think, in the right direction.OF: Yes, you could build anything before,
and it would somehow still make money, right?
WS (10:30):
Yeah, exactly. OF
to be more conscious of, well, “What is it?”WS: Yeah exactly. You need a more of a plan,
an idea. And it's not like thatanymore, that you can just make money…
OF (10:40):
… by default. WS
Yeah. So how did you start your business? WS
really nice. And I got really well paid. But Iwas a bit bored, because I just didn't really
feel that I could bring so much to the table.And so we thought “Oh, why don't we just do
(11:01):
some freelancing competitions, and try to get somesmall work?” Which was really hard at the time
because nobody knew us, nobody wanted to work withus, we didn't have any 关系 [guānxì] or anything.
Right. WS
stop doing these competitions, and try andget some small work, so that we can build our
portfolio, and have some fun building somethingat least”. And we met our first client, it was a
(11:25):
friend of a friend who was a gallery owner.And he didn't really have a lot of money,
and we didn't have any work. So we said“OK, you don't need to pay us, we'll do
it for free. But you have nothing to say”.OF: Oh, so you had total creative control?
WS (11:38):
Yes. OF
Yeah. OF
Well, the thing was that design at that time, everything was very glamorous and…
OF (11:46):
Gold-plated… WS
Chandeliers… WS
what was seen as ‘Western’ at the time. And hedidn't have a lot of money to build anything. “So
let’s just only build a few things, but then buildthem well”. So we left the space very, very raw,
and just built a beautiful mountain, to have theoffice inside and kind of have a stage. And then…
(12:10):
Now it would look very, very normal,because everybody's doing that.
But then at the time, it took a lot of convincing.And luckily, he was quite relaxed with it,
and and he was OK with it. But it wouldhave been hard to do that for anybody
else at that time, nobody would have done it.OF: Right. And the aesthetic you're talking about,
is where you have exposed materials, you have…WS: Yeah, we left a lot of the space ‘as found’.
(12:35):
Yes. WS
Also, for budget reasons, but also because wejust thought it was a lot more interesting to
show what was there, instead of hiding it.OF: With marble.
WS (12:46):
Yeah, exactly. OF
do you have a specific design aesthetic? Or areyou really at the mercy of what your clients
tell you to do? Like, what is that process?WS: We, I try to always find the essence of
what they're trying to do, it has a lot to dowith the context of the space that you have. But
(13:09):
it also has to do with the client's vision, andthe client's dream. And trying to really translate
that, as strongly as possible within that space.For example, then HARMAY, this is the cosmetic
brand that we work with. And the interesting thingwith them, was that they came and said “We're an
online company, we want to make an offline store.And we really want it to be not too different from
(13:35):
each other”. But how do you do that? So wetried to create something that was a place
where things got sent out from, to the peoplethat were buying online as well. So it became
a hub where online and offline came together.Basically, they just asked us to do one store,
and then we got on quite well together. And…OF: Who are they? They are Chinese?
(13:58):
Yeah, two Chinese men. And they're very good at what they do. And they're very fast in reacting
to the market. They’re fast in how they developtheir product, their branding, their marketing,
they just interact a lot with their community.And that's what made it very interesting to work
with them, because they always push you a littlebit further, or they ask difficult questions.
OF (14:23):
So with that as a starting point then, how did you translate that
into the finished product that you made?WS: You try and understand the brand or the client
And there's also a little bit of gut feeling,of course. One, you have organising the space,
which is just like how can people experiencethe whole area? But then you also have the whole
(14:44):
look and feel. And experiences,everybody's talking about experiences,
in interior or in retail. But experience is verypersonal, what I think is a good experience is
probably not the same as you consider a goodexperience. So it is also a very vague concept.
Also, like with this client, the firstproposal we did for them - because
they were not clear, and maybe we didn't askthe right questions at the time - we kind of did
(15:07):
the proposal that was, they said “Yes, yes, yes,yes”, but by the time we were ready to build it,
they said “It's not us. We're not going to do it”.And we totally re-did everything. And it was so
much more interesting, because then we really… Andthey were totally right. And then you start asking
the real questions, and then you can try and makesomething real. It has a lot more layers than just
(15:32):
a simple kind of quirky fact…OF: Yes.
WS (15:34):
… is maybe what I'm trying to say. OF
makes me think about the designs that look verygood - especially if you think about social media,
it looks like perfection, right? - andthen when you actually try and use it,
it doesn't work, right? That's obviouslywhat you tried desperately to avoid.
The thing is, you as a designer, you're human, you can make mistakes. You have the builder,
(15:58):
who’s human, who also might make a few mistakes.Things, especially here, can go quite fast.
OF (16:04):
Yes. WS
things that are just overlooked.OF: And and then those mistakes can
aggregate very quickly.WS: Yes. For example,
in a hotel room or something, you dohave sometimes drawers that don't open.
Yes. WS
only go open five centimetres, because there'ssomething else sticking out, there’s a wall
sticking out too far. And nobody actually lookedat that corner, and things go too fast, or because
(16:28):
they just didn't make the drawing properly,or didn't think things through. But all these,
if you can imagine, all these little detailsneed to be thought through, need to be designed,
need to be drawn out, and then built.So there's a lot of these things like…
Chairs not being able to sit at the table, becausethe leg is there. Or they didn't think of that,
(16:49):
or they didn't decide what chair to buybefore they made the table. For example,
you know, and so you have a lot of these.OF: Yeah. Because I've been to hotels like that,
where it looks pristine, and then you go “Oops!”WS: Yeah.
And then, as the customer, that's kind of what sticks in your head, right?
WS (17:03):
Yes, exactly. OF
sometimes it’s something beyond your control, andyet you have to own that mistake sometimes too.
Yeah. So there’s a fine line between over-designing, not designing, not caring enough,
yeah. There's a lot of grey there.OF: Interesting. And like,
I sense that we're talking about interiordesign a lot. Like, what is the difference
between interior design versus architecture?WS: I think there's a big difference. I studied to
(17:28):
be an architect, I didn't do any interior designbefore I came to China. And I was not interested
at all. In the beginning, I found it very trivial.I remember being in Holland and we built a house.
And then the couple that were moving in, theysaid “We've tried many interior architects,
but they all make it so different. And we reallylike the architecture, why don't you be the
(17:48):
interior designer for it?”OF: Ah.
And I was like “What? Why? I need to tell them what colour they need to paint the wall? I mean,
just paint it the colour that you want it to be. Imean, if you like pink, paint it pink, who cares?
That was kind of my thought about it. But then ofcourse, I realised It's not like that. So I don’t…
And it's extremely difficult, interior design, aswell. I mean, if you do it well, it is extremely…
(18:11):
There’s so many details on it, there's so manythoughts and processes. And so I've really learned
to appreciate it. But the bigness and the boldnessof an architecture project is really also very fun
to work on. And to be able to orchestrate howpeople use a building is really very satisfying,
as an architect. And to really kind of make animpact on how society can use a building, or
(18:38):
also the surroundings of it. The building has -or should have - an impact on its surroundings,
how you stand or use the space aroundit. And I think that is very interesting.
Now, for example, we're working on a 25,000square metre medical resort in 温州 [Wēnzhōu].
OF (18:53):
Oh. WS
it's this beautiful landscape, a really amazingvalley, and you stand there and you think “Wow”,
you know. First of all, you think “Why dowe build anything here, it’s so beautiful”.
But then you think “OK, you know, peoplecan come and enjoy this. And I want to do
a good job to respect what is there”.So you have this image in your mind,
(19:14):
you do something small and kind of light, butthen you look at the programme, and it's so big,
I want the building to actually hover over theland. So, kind of, land and nature can just live
underneath this building. So we ended up withthis huge, huge building, it looks so big. But
the choice of how we did it comes from that idea,that we wanted to have the mountain that it's on,
(19:39):
to actually still be the mountain. And we didn'twant to kind of stick a big building right on the
mountain. So just by starting that idea has a verybig consequence on how you design the building.
This is the kind of thing that I think of, when I think of architecture,
it's this conversation between thebuilding and its surroundings, right?
WS (20:00):
Yes. OF
the built environment, in general now, beinga little bit more aware of that conversation?
Yes, I think now a lot more people are conscious of where they build,
what they build. I think sometimes as a youngarchitect, it's very tempting to… You know,
you have a great idea, and you're so proudof the idea, and “I just want to build it”.
And it doesn't really matter where it is. Andthat… You need to kind of stop yourself. Because
(20:24):
there are many ideas. And sometimes they'relike, you know “Great idea, but we’re not doing
it here”. You know, just save it for another time.OF: Yes. And you're talking about your projects.
And I'm talking to you as an individual.But of course, you have a team. So tell
me about how you work in your team?WS: Well yeah, we have a team. So we
have like 35-40 people, and every project willhave a project architect and small team. And we
(20:48):
have about 70% or 65% local, and the rest would beInternational. It's not always easy in that way,
because the different cultures, and differentnationalities - and already personalities - can be
quite challenging. But for us, it's very importantto have that. To have like, a conversation about
(21:11):
a concept or design, it's a very differentconversation than the one that I would have
with friends that I went to school with,for example. One is maybe also generational,
but two it’s also background and everything.But it doesn't mean that it's less, it's just
very different. And you need to… Sometimes when,you know, you need to get something done, and
(21:32):
you’re a little bit under stress, you needto force yourself to be open at that moment,
to kind of have that give-and-take a little bit.OF: Yes, even as you're talking about it,
I can see you have this determination inyour look. But then, you have to at some
point step back and say “Wait, you know, maybe Ishould listen to a different viewpoint”, right?
Yeah. Because I'm also you know… I think designers, in any way, are quite passionate
(21:55):
people, and can kind of get emotional. Sowe tend to fight for our idea, or want to
explain what you do. So there's also quite a lotof talking involved. And sometimes you just need
to kind of… I also kind of jump in sometimes,and say “Ach, we should do like this”, and then
I need to… Then I go quiet. I’m like “OK.OK, you go ahead. What did you want to say?”
OF (22:18):
Yes. WS
I like that. That's the kind of creative tension that I think would exist in many different
environments, architecture included.WS: Yes.
Thank you so much, Wendy. WS
Let’s move on to Part 2. WS
[Part 2]OF:
OK. Part 2, Wendy, are you ready?WS: Yeah.
(22:38):
What is your favourite China-related fact? WS
beginning, I was here with some Dutch friends thatcame to visit us. And I was convinced that Chinese
people, their hair never goes grey. After a while,I realised that actually everybody dyes their
(22:58):
hair. And even the men. And all the politiciansand everybody, they all dye their hair black.
Especially the men. WS
their hair already for ages, everybody does it.But the men. And this kind of fear of looking old,
it was something that really surprisedme so much. Because on the other hand,
(23:19):
in China they respect the old so much more than wedo in the West. So I really can't understand that
duality of it, I still don't understand it.OF: It's absolutely true. And it reminds me
of an interview we did last season with theHead of Research and Development for L'Oréal
here in China. And yeah, he saidthe same thing. It was about
how the market for hair dye has now moved fromthose men to women. But it started off with men.
WS (23:44):
Yeah. OF
do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?WS: I think everybody has the same,
no? 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ].OF: 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ], interesting. That's
the first time in two seasons it's been said.WS: Ah OK, no I find that it used
to be said all the time to me.OF: Can you first explain what it means?
Oh, it's like, you know “You can't do anything about it”. It's like “It's how the
(24:06):
cookie crumbles”, right? 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ]. So,any question that you ask somebody, like “Can
you do this?” “No, no, it's out of my hands. No,I can't do it, 没办法 [méi bànfǎ], I can’t". And I’ve
realised that I don't hear it that often any more,and then I thought “Why is that?” And I think it's
also because I've learned to ask the questionsdifferently. Or maybe it's also changed… Society
(24:27):
has changed a little bit. Because for example, Iremember buying a train ticket, years ago in the
train station, you would say “I want a secondclass train ticket to Nanjing” or something.
And they would say “No, sorry, sold out”. Andyou would be “OK. So is there another train?” And
then you would start, you know, rearranging yourwhole trip. And then you just realise that they
(24:48):
don't say “No, the tickets are sold out, but youcould get a first class, or a third class ticket,
or a standing ticket, if you really want togo to Nanjing”. Nobody said that. So now I've
learnt to ask my questions differently.I would say “I want a ticket to Nanjing”,
and then they will ask me when, or what class ithas to be, and then they will get me a ticket.
OF (25:11):
Yes. WS
but I've learned to ask, you know,“But maybe you can do it like this?
Or like this?” And you kind of give themoptions, how to answer things. And then
you get a lot more done.OF: Yes. I can't explain that.
But you are right. And I've been in Asia now for16 years, not just in China. And I've experienced
that same thing where you ask a closed question,they'll give you a closed answer, yes or no.
WS (25:35):
Yes. OF
but how about that?”WA: Yes. Exactly.
OF (25:39):
I find like, how do I describe that? How do I attribute that to something? But yeah,
it’s a curious one. Excellent. What'syour favourite destination within China?
WS (25:49):
I have to go back… Like, before I had kids, I used to travel a lot more, I think. For me,
the most surprising, then, trips that we made wasgo to 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], to Kashgar. Just because,
the landscape is just amazing, so beautiful.But it's also such a different China. It's a
totally different people. I still remembervery clearly the feelings that I had,
(26:13):
when I was there. It's just so surprising.OF: Yeah.
Very different. OF
miss the most, and what would you miss the least?WS: I have to say the spontaneity of living in
China, and the way things go so fast. OK,on the one hand it makes you very tired,
and it has a lot of other things to it. But Iwill miss that. It can accommodate so many things,
(26:38):
it’s so lively, and it's so flexible.And I remember when I first arrived,
I thought that was so amazing, that you don't haveto make appointments weeks ahead with people. You
don't have to… It's not so planned out. Andnow it gives me another type of stress. But
that, I think, is something quite special.OF: Mmm. What about anything you'd miss the least?
(27:00):
Yeah, the fact of being misunderstood, and the frustration of it, I think.
OF (27:07):
Even now, how many years later. WS
the foreigner, right? You're always a littlebit, the one on the outside. That also gives
a certain freedom, and a pleasure to it. I'm notgonna lie about that. But there's also sometimes
something alienating about it.OF: Mmm. Is there anything that
still surprises you about life in China?WS: Oh many. Yeah, I think it never gets
(27:31):
really boring. You can't say life in China is everboring. You walk around the neighbourhood where
you go every day, and you'll just see somethingtotally new, and something new popping up. Or
you’ll notice something, people doing somethingdifferent than they did five years ago. I was
going for lunch, and I just passed by this, thissmall little hole-in-the-wall. And you look in,
(27:52):
and it's this super cool little store. And it'slike very trendy young people it it, in the middle
of nowhere. And you think “Wow, you can't imaginethat happening even five years ago”, and it's just
always this, kind of, never boring place.OF: Yeah. OK, next question.
Where is your favourite place to goout, to eat or drink or just hang out?
WS (28:15):
Locally, I think for 15 years, nearly every week I go to a local dumpling place
on 延庆路 [Yánqìng Lù]. And I think if you've beenhere long, you tend to kind of keep your - well
I do anyway - you tend to keep your life a littlebit simple. You go to some places that you know
what you're going to get. And I find, like inwork, everything is quite busy and stressful.
(28:38):
So I tried to keep my family life quite simple.OF: Mmm. What is the best or worst purchase
that you've made in China?WS: Because I'm a little bit
bigger than the average Chinese person.And my feet are a little bit bigger. So
I used to kind of try and squeeze my feet insmall Chinese shoes. And I think “You know, I
(28:59):
can just do it, I can just do it”. And I'll fitit in, and I'll buy them, and then I would be like
walking, even just out the door, and I couldn't.You know… So many things that I gave to 阿姨 [Āyí]…
OF (29:12):
That's the thing, it’s… We're here in this amazing fashionable city. But yeah,
the sizes are not for us.WS: No.
You can look, but you can't taste. WS
being the foreigner. The shoe is like… Itkind of fits, but it doesn't really fit.
No. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? WS
(29:35):
super funny, I think. And it alwaysmakes me laugh because it's just these
two women, fighting but not really fighting. Butit's kind of this very… If you've lived here…
Yeah. WS
imagine that being your neighbour, right?OF: Yes. Next question,
what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?WS: Maybe something from Wham!, or something.
(30:00):
Bring me back to my childhood.OF: Which is your favourite Wham! song?
WS (30:04):
Oh, Club Tropicana or something like, you know? Or like a good
Blondie one would also be good.OF: Oh, well that would suit you
especially. You've got a littlebit of ‘Deborah Harry’ about you.
Yeah, a good Blondie would do, I think. Always does the trick.
OF (30:21):
And finally, what about China related media or sources of information do you rely on?
WS (30:27):
Well, for China news, I would just do like… WeChat is actually a very good source of news - or
is it gossip? I don't really know - but yourealise, everything you know goes through WeChat.
OF (30:41):
Yeah. OF
It's the way that the question is worded. But increasingly, it's just WeChat. It just
shows how everyone just uses WeChat.WS: Yeah. And you sometimes forget
that people outside of China don't.OF: Wendy, thank you so much for that.
WS (30:56):
My pleasure, it was fun. OF
is the same thing I ask everyone. Whichis, out of everyone you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China?
My friend, YoungAh Kim. She's been involved in a lot of, like the youth culture and branding and…
OF (31:16):
Right. What does she do? WS
she's doing all the training wear in adidas, butshe did other big companies coming into China
before. so I think it’s quite interesting.OF: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much,
I look forward to meetingYoung-Ah. And once again,
thank you, Wendy.WS: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
(31:38):
I loved that analogy Wendy made betweenhow a shoes fits, and how a foreigner fits
in China. To me that just describes the life ofprivileged immigrants anywhere: we like to fit in,
and we like not fitting in, and somehowboth of these states exist at the same time.
Maybe this is the same duality thatWendy was describing with her object:
(32:01):
we’re kings sitting on uncomfortable chairs.
Before I forget, if you’re in Shanghai betweennow and March 28th, you can visit the AIM
Architecture pop-up exhibition in the space aboveMarienbad Cafe on the corner of 安福路 [Ānfú Lù]
and 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù]. I went there myselfthe other day, and I’ve posted a couple
of photos online from it, please check Facebook,WeChat or https://mosaicofchina.com to see them.
(32:28):
You can also see a bunch of other photosthere too, there’s Wendy’s object,
her favourite WeChat sticker, lots ofarchitectural projects, and plenty more
besides… Including a map that shows the 17lines (and counting) of the Shanghai Metro.
And finally, please subscribe tothe PREMIUM version of the podcast
(32:48):
on https://patreon.com/mosaicofchina for anaverage of 10-15 minutes extra per episode.
Here are some clips from today’s show…
[Clip 1]WS: Pretty is also a little bit boring.
[Clip 2]WS:
I convinced Vincent to take the train to China.OF: Oh, all the way from Europe?
WS (33:04):
Yes. OF
Yes. [Clip 3]
When we called, they said “Come back in March.” And we were like “What?”
[Clip 4]WS: You know,
you demolish something and there's a pipe there.Nobody told you, or nobody knew that it was there.
[Clip 5]OF: You’ve seen it.
You’ve seen this. [End of Audio Clips]
And that’s all for this week.Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,
with artwork by Denny Newell.And we’ll be back next week.
[Trailer]WS: I need
to tell them what colour theyneed to paint the wall? I mean,
just paint it the colour that you want it to be. Imean, if you like pink, paint it pink, who cares?
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
We’re already well into the second season ofthis project, and in almost every episode we’ve
(00:26):
mentioned the pace of construction, and thedevelopment of the built environment in China
over the last decade. So it’s about time we hadan architect represented in the Mosaic. My guest
today grew up in Belgium, is half Flemish and halfEnglish, and works alongside her Dutch husband,
and you’ll hear how she integrates a Europeanperspective into the story of her life and work
(00:50):
in China. We cover the rest of her intro veryearly on in our chat, so let’s get on with it.
[Part 1]OF:
Let's just introduce you properly. So youare the chief architect? What's your title?
WS (01:05):
Yeah, you could say that. I’m the owner, kind of I’m the owner, kind of Co-Owner and
Chief Architect of AIM Architecture.OF: How do you spell that, aim? A.I.M?
A.I.M. OF
coming in, Wendy. Oh, I should probably say yourfull name as well. So you're ‘Wendy Saunders’.
Yes. OF
in some way describes your life in China?WS: This one, this object.
OF (01:32):
I'm intrigued, I have no idea what I'm looking at. So tell me what's going on.
WS (01:35):
This is a sample of an object that we wanted to make for a project. And we never made it in
the end, because it became too complicated, andstuff like that. But it's a rubber mould. And
we wanted to use it for a seat of a chair. So wedid a lot of testing with that. And in the end, we
(01:55):
did the full rubber one, which of course is thentoo hard to sit. But it was kind of also a funny
thing, maybe you don't need to sit, it's just kindof an object to have in the house. And I kind of,
in my head I called it ‘The King Seat’ because ofthe crown-y spikes. But it's very uncomfortable.
So it has this kind of duality to it, right?OF: Oh, I see. So it's about being high profile,
(02:18):
being high status, but also inflicting pain.WS: Exactly. Why I brought it here,
is because it really shows what was interestingin the beginning, what always fascinated me
to be in China. When I first arrived as anarchitect, it was just, everywhere on the street,
people were making things. You used to have a lotof these small stores and small little workshops,
(02:40):
and you had no clue what they're reallymaking. But you could just feel it everywhere,
they were doing things and making things.And that was really exciting, everywhere
people were producing stuff. And now we're part ofthat community, of course, because we make a lot
of furniture, or pieces, or things, and interiors,or buildings. So it's a big part of what is China
(03:03):
for us. And I remember also, kind of, our firstoffice tables that we made, we made on the street.
This guy, they used to make window frames, and wejust thought “How cool is that?” To kind of just
design a table that is made specifically with thestuff that he has. And it was it was really fun,
to make something like that, which otherwise youwould never do. Because he just did it with the
(03:26):
pieces that he had in the shack, kind of thing.OF: Yes. That is a great jumping-off point,
because I think you've just described oneof the conflicting things that you have
to do as an architect (03:35):
to balance the style, with the practical use, right?
WS (03:40):
Yes. OF
buildings and you think “Oh, no expense spared,look at this amazing shiny building”. And then
you realise “Oh, wait a minute, the qualitywasn't quite what you first expected”, right?
Yes, that is, I think, the constant dilemma here. But to be on the positive side,
now it is changing a lot, I think that the qualityis improving immensely. And also the knowledge
(04:02):
of technology, and the knowledge of how things aremade, is also really changing a lot. Because in
the beginning, I think a lot of these workers- these construction workers - they come from
the countryside, they have no formal educationwhatsoever. And they used to come to work for part
of the year when the farm was not doing well. Andthey used to work in construction. And that was…
(04:27):
Some people in the team, of course, wereknowledgeable, but actually a lot of people,
who actually were making the things, did not haveany construction background, or… There's not a
school that you go to learn construction,or masonry, or anything like that. So
if you start thinking about it, it's very normalthat they had to go through that whole process.
OF (04:49):
Well, we're touching upon this subject, but let me ask you outright then. So
what is the state of architecture right now?WS: Well it's doing extremely well.
There's so much going on. And again, the evolutionthat we've gone through, or that I've seen…
When we arrived, and we wanted to start a smallpractice, it was really very difficult to find a
(05:11):
client, and to actually have a few staff toactually support you. Because nobody wanted
to work in a small company, it was totallynot interesting for them, everybody would
want to work in a 500-people company, becauseit was secure, and that's what China at that
time was. And if you see now, there are so manyindependent smaller designers, architects, and
they've travelled, they're better educated, orthey're educated abroad or wherever, but they're
(05:36):
really very interested in what's going on.OF: Let’s go back to when you first came. So
explain what the world was like in China then.WS: There were just a lot of changes going on.
And I think everybody was quite surprisedand astonished about the tabula rasa that
was going through, with little respect- at that time - of the old, maybe.
(05:57):
Which again, now is totally changed, whichis great. I don't think at that moment
I dared to judge it, because you also don't reallyunderstand it. I mean, the conditions that a
lot of these buildings were in, were also notgreat. As a tourist, you pass by and think “Oh,
how cute”, but actually the conditions for thepeople who live there are not really… I mean,
(06:20):
you would not want to live there.OF: Yeah.
WS (06:21):
So maybe many things got destroyed that shouldn't have, but it is also kind of like
an evolution of learning. And I think we - inEurope, anyway - it took hundreds of years to
go through that. Well, here they did insuch a short time. It's kind of normal,
it’s kind of learning through doing, basically.OF: Mmm. Which is something you can say about
(06:44):
China writ large, across everything.WS: Yes.
OF (06:46):
It’s this trying, iterating, failing, making mistakes, trying again, making new mistakes…
WS (06:51):
Yeah. OF
these are building-sized mistakes, right?WS: Yes. But it makes it also kind of a bold…
It has a boldness to it, and it’s also… Architectsin Europe - I can only speak for European
architects, but - they're very serious. Youknow, they think they can change the world. And
(07:15):
in the back of my mind, I also still think I cando that. But it makes everything very serious,
and you don't take things lightly, because it hasthis huge responsibility to it. It is. But on the
other hand, you know, not everything has to beliked by everybody, not everything has to be…
(07:37):
Things can just sometimes be a little bit off,or a little bit weird, or a little bit funny. And
it is also OK, it kind of also makes a city, acity. It makes the urban fabric a lot richer.
In the beginning, when I came to Shanghai,the neon was amazing. I loved it, you know,
it makes everything so happy and so vibrant. Andit was, for me truly, like this cliché of Asia.
(08:01):
And then when I went to Europe, it's so boring.OF: Right.
You know, everything is so quaint, and so perfect. Or they try at least to be,
you know. And if it's not perfect, it’sderelict. There's not really a lot in the middle.
And I think this kind of freedom, a little bit,in a city is very refreshing. And I think that
(08:22):
that liveliness, when I came to China, gave mea huge sense of freedom as a designer, actually.
OF (08:28):
Right, how interesting. And I guess it's also a consequence of,
as you've already mentioned, the fast pace ofchange. Where you see it happening before you, so
it's much more obvious to talk about, right?WS: Yeah, in Europe, I remember when… Before
coming to China, I lived in Amsterdam.And when we left Amsterdam to come here,
they were redoing the Amsterdamstation, and it was like a huge building
(08:53):
pit. And they were doing the second metroline, or something. And I think 12 years later,
they were still doing exactly that. And theywere still building the second metro line. Well,
when I arrived in Shanghai, there was a Number 1and a Number 2 line. And now how many do you have?
Fifteen? Yeah. WS
(09:14):
looking, going back and forthand thinking “Wow, you know,
what are we doing?” Of course there's a darkside to that, especially in interiors - which
is also what I also do - the speed, andthings that get built and knocked down,
is sometimes shocking in the sense of how muchwaste it creates, and how much energy it wastes.
(09:40):
And I think that is something thatnot a lot of people think about.
But I think it also does change when it's aboutmaking a clear business plan, or… It used to be
“I'm just going to do this”. And “I'm just goingto take a chance and make a little store”. But
they had no real idea what they were going todo with it. Or didn't really do the numbers
(10:01):
properly. So they failed. And I think now becausethings have gotten a lot more expensive - also
construction has gotten a lot more expensive- which is a good thing, because people think
maybe a little bit harder about “What do I reallywant to do?” And “What effect will it have?” And
“How will my business be sustainable, at least fora few years?” All these factors will bring change,
(10:24):
and I think, in the right direction.OF: Yes, you could build anything before,
and it would somehow still make money, right?
WS (10:30):
Yeah, exactly. OF
to be more conscious of, well, “What is it?”WS: Yeah exactly. You need a more of a plan,
an idea. And it's not like thatanymore, that you can just make money…
OF (10:40):
… by default. WS
Yeah. So how did you start your business? WS
really nice. And I got really well paid. But Iwas a bit bored, because I just didn't really
feel that I could bring so much to the table.And so we thought “Oh, why don't we just do
(11:01):
some freelancing competitions, and try to get somesmall work?” Which was really hard at the time
because nobody knew us, nobody wanted to work withus, we didn't have any 关系 [guānxì] or anything.
Right. WS
stop doing these competitions, and try andget some small work, so that we can build our
portfolio, and have some fun building somethingat least”. And we met our first client, it was a
(11:25):
friend of a friend who was a gallery owner.And he didn't really have a lot of money,
and we didn't have any work. So we said“OK, you don't need to pay us, we'll do
it for free. But you have nothing to say”.OF: Oh, so you had total creative control?
WS (11:38):
Yes. OF
Yeah. OF
Well, the thing was that design at that time, everything was very glamorous and…
OF (11:46):
Gold-plated… WS
Chandeliers… WS
what was seen as ‘Western’ at the time. And hedidn't have a lot of money to build anything. “So
let’s just only build a few things, but then buildthem well”. So we left the space very, very raw,
and just built a beautiful mountain, to have theoffice inside and kind of have a stage. And then…
(12:10):
Now it would look very, very normal,because everybody's doing that.
But then at the time, it took a lot of convincing.And luckily, he was quite relaxed with it,
and and he was OK with it. But it wouldhave been hard to do that for anybody
else at that time, nobody would have done it.OF: Right. And the aesthetic you're talking about,
is where you have exposed materials, you have…WS: Yeah, we left a lot of the space ‘as found’.
(12:35):
Yes. WS
Also, for budget reasons, but also because wejust thought it was a lot more interesting to
show what was there, instead of hiding it.OF: With marble.
WS (12:46):
Yeah, exactly. OF
do you have a specific design aesthetic? Or areyou really at the mercy of what your clients
tell you to do? Like, what is that process?WS: We, I try to always find the essence of
what they're trying to do, it has a lot to dowith the context of the space that you have. But
(13:09):
it also has to do with the client's vision, andthe client's dream. And trying to really translate
that, as strongly as possible within that space.For example, then HARMAY, this is the cosmetic
brand that we work with. And the interesting thingwith them, was that they came and said “We're an
online company, we want to make an offline store.And we really want it to be not too different from
(13:35):
each other”. But how do you do that? So wetried to create something that was a place
where things got sent out from, to the peoplethat were buying online as well. So it became
a hub where online and offline came together.Basically, they just asked us to do one store,
and then we got on quite well together. And…OF: Who are they? They are Chinese?
(13:58):
Yeah, two Chinese men. And they're very good at what they do. And they're very fast in reacting
to the market. They’re fast in how they developtheir product, their branding, their marketing,
they just interact a lot with their community.And that's what made it very interesting to work
with them, because they always push you a littlebit further, or they ask difficult questions.
OF (14:23):
So with that as a starting point then, how did you translate that
into the finished product that you made?WS: You try and understand the brand or the client
And there's also a little bit of gut feeling,of course. One, you have organising the space,
which is just like how can people experiencethe whole area? But then you also have the whole
(14:44):
look and feel. And experiences,everybody's talking about experiences,
in interior or in retail. But experience is verypersonal, what I think is a good experience is
probably not the same as you consider a goodexperience. So it is also a very vague concept.
Also, like with this client, the firstproposal we did for them - because
they were not clear, and maybe we didn't askthe right questions at the time - we kind of did
(15:07):
the proposal that was, they said “Yes, yes, yes,yes”, but by the time we were ready to build it,
they said “It's not us. We're not going to do it”.And we totally re-did everything. And it was so
much more interesting, because then we really… Andthey were totally right. And then you start asking
the real questions, and then you can try and makesomething real. It has a lot more layers than just
(15:32):
a simple kind of quirky fact…OF: Yes.
WS (15:34):
… is maybe what I'm trying to say. OF
makes me think about the designs that look verygood - especially if you think about social media,
it looks like perfection, right? - andthen when you actually try and use it,
it doesn't work, right? That's obviouslywhat you tried desperately to avoid.
The thing is, you as a designer, you're human, you can make mistakes. You have the builder,
(15:58):
who’s human, who also might make a few mistakes.Things, especially here, can go quite fast.
OF (16:04):
Yes. WS
things that are just overlooked.OF: And and then those mistakes can
aggregate very quickly.WS: Yes. For example,
in a hotel room or something, you dohave sometimes drawers that don't open.
Yes. WS
only go open five centimetres, because there'ssomething else sticking out, there’s a wall
sticking out too far. And nobody actually lookedat that corner, and things go too fast, or because
(16:28):
they just didn't make the drawing properly,or didn't think things through. But all these,
if you can imagine, all these little detailsneed to be thought through, need to be designed,
need to be drawn out, and then built.So there's a lot of these things like…
Chairs not being able to sit at the table, becausethe leg is there. Or they didn't think of that,
(16:49):
or they didn't decide what chair to buybefore they made the table. For example,
you know, and so you have a lot of these.OF: Yeah. Because I've been to hotels like that,
where it looks pristine, and then you go “Oops!”WS: Yeah.
And then, as the customer, that's kind of what sticks in your head, right?
WS (17:03):
Yes, exactly. OF
sometimes it’s something beyond your control, andyet you have to own that mistake sometimes too.
Yeah. So there’s a fine line between over-designing, not designing, not caring enough,
yeah. There's a lot of grey there.OF: Interesting. And like,
I sense that we're talking about interiordesign a lot. Like, what is the difference
between interior design versus architecture?WS: I think there's a big difference. I studied to
(17:28):
be an architect, I didn't do any interior designbefore I came to China. And I was not interested
at all. In the beginning, I found it very trivial.I remember being in Holland and we built a house.
And then the couple that were moving in, theysaid “We've tried many interior architects,
but they all make it so different. And we reallylike the architecture, why don't you be the
(17:48):
interior designer for it?”OF: Ah.
And I was like “What? Why? I need to tell them what colour they need to paint the wall? I mean,
just paint it the colour that you want it to be. Imean, if you like pink, paint it pink, who cares?
That was kind of my thought about it. But then ofcourse, I realised It's not like that. So I don’t…
And it's extremely difficult, interior design, aswell. I mean, if you do it well, it is extremely…
(18:11):
There’s so many details on it, there's so manythoughts and processes. And so I've really learned
to appreciate it. But the bigness and the boldnessof an architecture project is really also very fun
to work on. And to be able to orchestrate howpeople use a building is really very satisfying,
as an architect. And to really kind of make animpact on how society can use a building, or
(18:38):
also the surroundings of it. The building has -or should have - an impact on its surroundings,
how you stand or use the space aroundit. And I think that is very interesting.
Now, for example, we're working on a 25,000square metre medical resort in 温州 [Wēnzhōu].
OF (18:53):
Oh. WS
it's this beautiful landscape, a really amazingvalley, and you stand there and you think “Wow”,
you know. First of all, you think “Why dowe build anything here, it’s so beautiful”.
But then you think “OK, you know, peoplecan come and enjoy this. And I want to do
a good job to respect what is there”.So you have this image in your mind,
(19:14):
you do something small and kind of light, butthen you look at the programme, and it's so big,
I want the building to actually hover over theland. So, kind of, land and nature can just live
underneath this building. So we ended up withthis huge, huge building, it looks so big. But
the choice of how we did it comes from that idea,that we wanted to have the mountain that it's on,
(19:39):
to actually still be the mountain. And we didn'twant to kind of stick a big building right on the
mountain. So just by starting that idea has a verybig consequence on how you design the building.
This is the kind of thing that I think of, when I think of architecture,
it's this conversation between thebuilding and its surroundings, right?
WS (20:00):
Yes. OF
the built environment, in general now, beinga little bit more aware of that conversation?
Yes, I think now a lot more people are conscious of where they build,
what they build. I think sometimes as a youngarchitect, it's very tempting to… You know,
you have a great idea, and you're so proudof the idea, and “I just want to build it”.
And it doesn't really matter where it is. Andthat… You need to kind of stop yourself. Because
(20:24):
there are many ideas. And sometimes they'relike, you know “Great idea, but we’re not doing
it here”. You know, just save it for another time.OF: Yes. And you're talking about your projects.
And I'm talking to you as an individual.But of course, you have a team. So tell
me about how you work in your team?WS: Well yeah, we have a team. So we
have like 35-40 people, and every project willhave a project architect and small team. And we
(20:48):
have about 70% or 65% local, and the rest would beInternational. It's not always easy in that way,
because the different cultures, and differentnationalities - and already personalities - can be
quite challenging. But for us, it's very importantto have that. To have like, a conversation about
(21:11):
a concept or design, it's a very differentconversation than the one that I would have
with friends that I went to school with,for example. One is maybe also generational,
but two it’s also background and everything.But it doesn't mean that it's less, it's just
very different. And you need to… Sometimes when,you know, you need to get something done, and
(21:32):
you’re a little bit under stress, you needto force yourself to be open at that moment,
to kind of have that give-and-take a little bit.OF: Yes, even as you're talking about it,
I can see you have this determination inyour look. But then, you have to at some
point step back and say “Wait, you know, maybe Ishould listen to a different viewpoint”, right?
Yeah. Because I'm also you know… I think designers, in any way, are quite passionate
(21:55):
people, and can kind of get emotional. Sowe tend to fight for our idea, or want to
explain what you do. So there's also quite a lotof talking involved. And sometimes you just need
to kind of… I also kind of jump in sometimes,and say “Ach, we should do like this”, and then
I need to… Then I go quiet. I’m like “OK.OK, you go ahead. What did you want to say?”
OF (22:18):
Yes. WS
I like that. That's the kind of creative tension that I think would exist in many different
environments, architecture included.WS: Yes.
Thank you so much, Wendy. WS
Let’s move on to Part 2. WS
[Part 2]OF:
OK. Part 2, Wendy, are you ready?WS: Yeah.
(22:38):
What is your favourite China-related fact? WS
beginning, I was here with some Dutch friends thatcame to visit us. And I was convinced that Chinese
people, their hair never goes grey. After a while,I realised that actually everybody dyes their
(22:58):
hair. And even the men. And all the politiciansand everybody, they all dye their hair black.
Especially the men. WS
their hair already for ages, everybody does it.But the men. And this kind of fear of looking old,
it was something that really surprisedme so much. Because on the other hand,
(23:19):
in China they respect the old so much more than wedo in the West. So I really can't understand that
duality of it, I still don't understand it.OF: It's absolutely true. And it reminds me
of an interview we did last season with theHead of Research and Development for L'Oréal
here in China. And yeah, he saidthe same thing. It was about
how the market for hair dye has now moved fromthose men to women. But it started off with men.
WS (23:44):
Yeah. OF
do you have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?WS: I think everybody has the same,
no? 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ].OF: 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ], interesting. That's
the first time in two seasons it's been said.WS: Ah OK, no I find that it used
to be said all the time to me.OF: Can you first explain what it means?
Oh, it's like, you know “You can't do anything about it”. It's like “It's how the
(24:06):
cookie crumbles”, right? 没办法 [Méi bànfǎ]. So,any question that you ask somebody, like “Can
you do this?” “No, no, it's out of my hands. No,I can't do it, 没办法 [méi bànfǎ], I can’t". And I’ve
realised that I don't hear it that often any more,and then I thought “Why is that?” And I think it's
also because I've learned to ask the questionsdifferently. Or maybe it's also changed… Society
(24:27):
has changed a little bit. Because for example, Iremember buying a train ticket, years ago in the
train station, you would say “I want a secondclass train ticket to Nanjing” or something.
And they would say “No, sorry, sold out”. Andyou would be “OK. So is there another train?” And
then you would start, you know, rearranging yourwhole trip. And then you just realise that they
(24:48):
don't say “No, the tickets are sold out, but youcould get a first class, or a third class ticket,
or a standing ticket, if you really want togo to Nanjing”. Nobody said that. So now I've
learnt to ask my questions differently.I would say “I want a ticket to Nanjing”,
and then they will ask me when, or what class ithas to be, and then they will get me a ticket.
OF (25:11):
Yes. WS
but I've learned to ask, you know,“But maybe you can do it like this?
Or like this?” And you kind of give themoptions, how to answer things. And then
you get a lot more done.OF: Yes. I can't explain that.
But you are right. And I've been in Asia now for16 years, not just in China. And I've experienced
that same thing where you ask a closed question,they'll give you a closed answer, yes or no.
WS (25:35):
Yes. OF
but how about that?”WA: Yes. Exactly.
OF (25:39):
I find like, how do I describe that? How do I attribute that to something? But yeah,
it’s a curious one. Excellent. What'syour favourite destination within China?
WS (25:49):
I have to go back… Like, before I had kids, I used to travel a lot more, I think. For me,
the most surprising, then, trips that we made wasgo to 新疆 [Xīnjiāng], to Kashgar. Just because,
the landscape is just amazing, so beautiful.But it's also such a different China. It's a
totally different people. I still remembervery clearly the feelings that I had,
(26:13):
when I was there. It's just so surprising.OF: Yeah.
Very different. OF
miss the most, and what would you miss the least?WS: I have to say the spontaneity of living in
China, and the way things go so fast. OK,on the one hand it makes you very tired,
and it has a lot of other things to it. But Iwill miss that. It can accommodate so many things,
(26:38):
it’s so lively, and it's so flexible.And I remember when I first arrived,
I thought that was so amazing, that you don't haveto make appointments weeks ahead with people. You
don't have to… It's not so planned out. Andnow it gives me another type of stress. But
that, I think, is something quite special.OF: Mmm. What about anything you'd miss the least?
(27:00):
Yeah, the fact of being misunderstood, and the frustration of it, I think.
OF (27:07):
Even now, how many years later. WS
the foreigner, right? You're always a littlebit, the one on the outside. That also gives
a certain freedom, and a pleasure to it. I'm notgonna lie about that. But there's also sometimes
something alienating about it.OF: Mmm. Is there anything that
still surprises you about life in China?WS: Oh many. Yeah, I think it never gets
(27:31):
really boring. You can't say life in China is everboring. You walk around the neighbourhood where
you go every day, and you'll just see somethingtotally new, and something new popping up. Or
you’ll notice something, people doing somethingdifferent than they did five years ago. I was
going for lunch, and I just passed by this, thissmall little hole-in-the-wall. And you look in,
(27:52):
and it's this super cool little store. And it'slike very trendy young people it it, in the middle
of nowhere. And you think “Wow, you can't imaginethat happening even five years ago”, and it's just
always this, kind of, never boring place.OF: Yeah. OK, next question.
Where is your favourite place to goout, to eat or drink or just hang out?
WS (28:15):
Locally, I think for 15 years, nearly every week I go to a local dumpling place
on 延庆路 [Yánqìng Lù]. And I think if you've beenhere long, you tend to kind of keep your - well
I do anyway - you tend to keep your life a littlebit simple. You go to some places that you know
what you're going to get. And I find, like inwork, everything is quite busy and stressful.
(28:38):
So I tried to keep my family life quite simple.OF: Mmm. What is the best or worst purchase
that you've made in China?WS: Because I'm a little bit
bigger than the average Chinese person.And my feet are a little bit bigger. So
I used to kind of try and squeeze my feet insmall Chinese shoes. And I think “You know, I
(28:59):
can just do it, I can just do it”. And I'll fitit in, and I'll buy them, and then I would be like
walking, even just out the door, and I couldn't.You know… So many things that I gave to 阿姨 [Āyí]…
OF (29:12):
That's the thing, it’s… We're here in this amazing fashionable city. But yeah,
the sizes are not for us.WS: No.
You can look, but you can't taste. WS
being the foreigner. The shoe is like… Itkind of fits, but it doesn't really fit.
No. What is your favourite WeChat sticker? WS
(29:35):
super funny, I think. And it alwaysmakes me laugh because it's just these
two women, fighting but not really fighting. Butit's kind of this very… If you've lived here…
Yeah. WS
imagine that being your neighbour, right?OF: Yes. Next question,
what is your go-to song to sing at KTV?WS: Maybe something from Wham!, or something.
(30:00):
Bring me back to my childhood.OF: Which is your favourite Wham! song?
WS (30:04):
Oh, Club Tropicana or something like, you know? Or like a good
Blondie one would also be good.OF: Oh, well that would suit you
especially. You've got a littlebit of ‘Deborah Harry’ about you.
Yeah, a good Blondie would do, I think. Always does the trick.
OF (30:21):
And finally, what about China related media or sources of information do you rely on?
WS (30:27):
Well, for China news, I would just do like… WeChat is actually a very good source of news - or
is it gossip? I don't really know - but yourealise, everything you know goes through WeChat.
OF (30:41):
Yeah. OF
It's the way that the question is worded. But increasingly, it's just WeChat. It just
shows how everyone just uses WeChat.WS: Yeah. And you sometimes forget
that people outside of China don't.OF: Wendy, thank you so much for that.
WS (30:56):
My pleasure, it was fun. OF
is the same thing I ask everyone. Whichis, out of everyone you know in China,
who would you recommend that I interviewfor the next season of Mosaic of China?
My friend, YoungAh Kim. She's been involved in a lot of, like the youth culture and branding and…
OF (31:16):
Right. What does she do? WS
she's doing all the training wear in adidas, butshe did other big companies coming into China
before. so I think it’s quite interesting.OF: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much,
I look forward to meetingYoung-Ah. And once again,
thank you, Wendy.WS: Thank you.
[Outro]OF:
(31:38):
I loved that analogy Wendy made betweenhow a shoes fits, and how a foreigner fits
in China. To me that just describes the life ofprivileged immigrants anywhere: we like to fit in,
and we like not fitting in, and somehowboth of these states exist at the same time.
Maybe this is the same duality thatWendy was describing with her object:
(32:01):
we’re kings sitting on uncomfortable chairs.
Before I forget, if you’re in Shanghai betweennow and March 28th, you can visit the AIM
Architecture pop-up exhibition in the space aboveMarienbad Cafe on the corner of 安福路 [Ānfú Lù]
and 武康路 [Wǔkāng Lù]. I went there myselfthe other day, and I’ve posted a couple
of photos online from it, please check Facebook,WeChat or https://mosaicofchina.com to see them.
(32:28):
You can also see a bunch of other photosthere too, there’s Wendy’s object,
her favourite WeChat sticker, lots ofarchitectural projects, and plenty more
besides… Including a map that shows the 17lines (and counting) of the Shanghai Metro.
And finally, please subscribe tothe PREMIUM version of the podcast
(32:48):
on https://patreon.com/mosaicofchina for anaverage of 10-15 minutes extra per episode.
Here are some clips from today’s show…
[Clip 1]WS: Pretty is also a little bit boring.
[Clip 2]WS:
I convinced Vincent to take the train to China.OF: Oh, all the way from Europe?
WS (33:04):
Yes. OF
Yes. [Clip 3]
When we called, they said “Come back in March.” And we were like “What?”
[Clip 4]WS: You know,
you demolish something and there's a pipe there.Nobody told you, or nobody knew that it was there.
[Clip 5]OF: You’ve seen it.
You’ve seen this. [End of Audio Clips]
And that’s all for this week.Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs,
with artwork by Denny Newell.And we’ll be back next week.
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