November 18, 2019 • 28 mins
In case you ever feel like complaining about logistics, bureaucracy and red tape in China, spare a thought for Emily Madge, who was part of the team in charge of transporting two beluga whales from Shanghai to Iceland. In today’s episode we discuss this amazing story, as well as track Emily’s experience in the conservation and welfare of marine life in China. With plenty of FISH FACTS thrown in, today’s episode is a great mix of the entertaining and the educational. Big thanks to Emily for being such a good sport. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 00:32 - Part 1 16:38 - Part 2 23:39 - Outro 27:23 - Easter Egg Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
[Trailer]EM: She grabs a businessman and
(00:05):
starts dry-humping him, and his face.OF: Oh my word!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
I'm really excited about releasing today'sepisode. It was a lot of fun to record, and
hopefully just as fun to listen to. So let's notwaste any time at all. Here is the conversation.
(00:30):
[Part 1]OF: Thank
you so much for coming, Emily.EM: Thank you for having me.
OF (00:36):
I'm here with Emily Madge. And Emily is the Head of Asia for Conservation,
Welfare and Education at Sea Life.EM: Indeed I am.
And we met, actually in the last year, we were at an event which was being held
by our artist friend, Tom. Isn't that right?EM: Which makes us sound very cultured, yes.
Yes. That's exactly what I was going for. And when you told me what you did,
(00:58):
I thought “Oh you know what, I have to have you onthis podcast.” And we'll find out why in a moment.
But before we do, the first thing I ask everyoneis, what is the object that you've bought which in
some way typifies your life here in China?EM: So I've brought with me a diving mask.
Oh, very good. EM
I work for an aquarium called Sea Life. And I lookafter the Asian aquariums we have, as part of the
(01:27):
Conservation, Welfare and Engagement. So I'm basedhere in Shanghai, and I brought the object because
not only does it represent my career - I’m amarine biologist, I studied it at Aberystwyth
University, but it also represents my love forthe ocean, my hobbies, and how I got into my job.
(01:48):
Great. Well, there’s a lot of details you've already put in there. Maybe the first detail I
should jump in on is ‘Aberystwyth’. For peoplewho don't know where that is, where are you from?
EM (01:57):
So I'm from Cardiff in Wales, and Aberystwyth is a university more north in Wales.
OF (02:04):
Great. So all together, how long have you been in this field?
EM (02:08):
11 years. OF
interested me when we first talked is specificallywhat you're doing here in China. There's been
something which is very special here. So whydon't you explain what has been I guess the bane
of your life, really, for the last few months.EM: So we acquired Shanghai Aquarium a few years
(02:30):
ago, and we acquired it with two beluga whalesthat they were keeping. And as part of Sea Life
policy, we do not keep marine mammals or cetaceansin captivity. So part of the acquisition was a
plan to re-home and retire these whales, so theycan live out the rest of their lives in a better
(02:50):
place. And so a huge amount of work has goneinto finding a retirement home for them, which
has now been confirmed as a semi-wild sanctuaryin Iceland. So the past ooh I'd say a year,
I've been working closely with colleagues to workour way to move these whales from Shanghai over to
(03:12):
Iceland. There's been a lot of work involved.OF: Right. When I first thought about this
situation, I thought about when you're inChina, you come up against a lot of red tape,
and sometimes it can be very Kafka-esque.You don't quite know how things are decided,
it can be almost arbitrary. Where doyou start with transporting a whale?
Good question. So there's been lots of details we've had to cover. We have to prepare the whales
(03:38):
for transport themselves. So we've had to do alot of desensitisation training; we’ve had to
train them new behaviours; we've had to increasetheir body fat, so they've got enough blubber to
keep them warm in the cold Icelandic waters. Wehave engaged a transport company called Cargolux,
(03:58):
who will be flying the whales over.OF: Well, that was one of my questions.
Yes, they will be flying, not swimming. And we've built bespoke transport boxes for
them. So they'll be put in a transport stretcherand then that transport stretcher will sit in a
box filled with water. And then we'llhave vets and trainers on the flight,
(04:20):
taking care of the animals the whole time.OF: Wow. OK. Well, let's dissect that a
little bit. How much of that, that you justdescribed, would have been the case anywhere
in the world? And how much have you hadto deal with specifically for China?
So it has been done, they move marine mammals around the world. Obviously, there's a lot of
(04:41):
beluga whales and killer whales here. So they movethem from Russia. There's quite a few people in
the industry. But it's very unique for us to bemoving whales out of China. And it's taken a lot
of good relationships and a lot of time and energyto secure that agreement, that we can move them.
And it's been a very, very interesting project,because we're going out of China back into Europe.
(05:06):
The details around it, I could bore you for days.OF: What can you think of maybe one thing that has
gone particularly smoothly, and then maybeone thing that's been the most difficult.
So I think that generally the project's gone very smoothly. The whales are in great health,
we've got a great team of peopleworking with them. Logistically,
(05:28):
we've built these boxes from scratch, oneof my colleagues designed them just based on
some information he had from other marine mammaltransports. We've engaged consultants and vets,
everyone's been very engaged in the process. Andso it's been a very smooth process, in that sense.
There have been so many challenges along theway. Fine details. Ice on the plane was an issue.
OF (05:55):
Ice on the plane? EM
We've had various hurdles, small detailsthat you wouldn't imagine would be a problem,
have then been a problem. So it's requireda lot of patience. But we finally got there.
And tell me more about this structure that you built. Do you have a photo that maybe you
(06:15):
can share with me afterwards?EM: Yeah, of course.
Great. EM
structure that's reinforced, obviously, to handlethe weight of lifting the whales. The whales are,
we think about one tonne in weight. Sothe poles have had to be bespoke-made,
as well as the stretcher to fit the whale. Andthen we've had to actually train the whales to
(06:37):
swim into the stretcher as a desensitisationprocess so that they don’t freak out when we
actually put the stretcher in the water. So wedesigned those way back when, and we've been
working with the whales with them ever since.OF: Now let me interject here with… If now and
again, I can just say the words “fishfact” at you, would you be able to say
(06:57):
a fish fact about anything that theaverage listener wouldn't have known?
EM (07:00):
I can indeed. OF
OK, fish fact. So everyone knows Nemo. So all clown fish are actually born as males, but they
live in a hierarchy. So the female fish is at thetop - there’s only one female - and when she dies,
(07:22):
another male will transition into a female.OF: Wow. So hang on, there’s only one
female giving birth to the whole shoal?EM: Only one female laying eggs, yeah.
OF (07:31):
Oh, my word. OK. My mind has gone into something quite dirty right now.
That would be a very different Nemo movie.EM: It's not that dirty. She lays eggs,
and then the male comes in andfertilises them separate, so…
Exactly. Exactly. Sorry, OK. Well I will definitely jump in with another question later.
(07:52):
But going back to the whale, then. So you'veacclimatised the whale to swimming into this
harness, I guess is what it is, a sling.EM: Yes.
But how did you get them acclimatised to being on a plane? Because that's
something which you probably can't predict.EM: Yep. So there's no way of doing that.
The only thing we can do is ensure that we'vegot everything in their environment perfect. So
(08:13):
that when they when they're actually in transit,they're as comfortable as possible. And so that
goes with water temperature, we have a filtrationsystem that's on the flight circulating the water,
we have vets with them the whole time, trainerswith them who they're familiar with to keep
them reassured throughout the journey.There's so much going into it. As you say,
(08:33):
we can't predict what they'll do on the flight.But we know we can keep them as calm as possible.
I've been on some flights where actually I wouldn't mind
having somebody there to give me a massage.EM: I know. I think this is first class treatment.
Absolutely. OK, so this has been pretty much the key part of
your experience in China, I would assume.EM: Yes, this has definitely been a huge
(08:53):
focus for me since I've been here.OF: Apart from dealing with a whale,
how has your experience in China been differentto your other experiences over the last 11 years?
EM (09:02):
Gosh, very different. It's been my first shot in a regional role. So looking after more
than one aquarium, but being based in China, hasbeen eye opening, and a new way of working for me.
OF (09:17):
Hang on, FISH FACT! EM
when you turn a shark upside down, itgoes into a state of trance, it’s called
‘tonic immobility’. And it’ll just lie therecompletely still until you turn it back over.
That's exactly like me with gin and tonic immobility. And have you seen
(09:38):
this, or is it just something you've heard of?EM: Yeah, absolutely. They use it quite a
lot in other aquariums so we can do medicalchecks and stuff. So you turn the shark over,
you can do a full examination withouthaving to sedate or use any medication.
Wow, that’s handy, right? EM
want to try it with a great white, but people haveOF: Wow. OK, well thank you for that. Going back
(09:59):
then, to what we were still talking about withChina, in terms of the people you work with
here then, how have they managed you coming in?EM: They've been so welcoming, it's been very
different for me being in a remote supportrole to all these other aquariums. So not
having a real team was a big shock for me.But the guys in the China office have been
fabulous. I think there's any one otherforeigner in the office, and they do they
(10:25):
take care of us. And they've been wonderful. So…OF: You said in general, it's not a big deal to
have mammals and whales in aquariums in China.What has been your experience of, to what extent
your situation here in Shanghai is similar toelsewhere in China, or in what way it's unique?
EM (10:40):
No, very unique. I think there's a huge aquarium industry in China, and there are so many
opening every year. And marine mammals are partof that, the Chinese do love big marine mammals,
and having that selfie moment, and seeing theshows. So what we're doing is quite the opposite,
(11:01):
it’s very unique in that sense. We’ve had alot of guests in, and we were talking about
what we're doing, and we've had good feedback fromthe guests that have come into the aquarium, when
we've told them about the project. But it's justa new initiative for China, and hopefully, it will
influence and educate some of the Chinese guests- who do like aquariums, and who do visit marine
(11:26):
mammal parks - to just perhaps start thinkingdifferently about marine mammals in captivity.
OF (11:31):
Right. So your point is that it's more an education in ecology and sustainability. And it's
not about the entertainment side,as much as the education side.
EM (11:39):
Of course, yeah. OF
Ach, OK. Fish fact. Um, so when a starfish eats, it expels its stomach out of its mouth,
digests the food externally, and thensucks it up. And sucks its stomach back in,
to take it in.OF: Wow.
(12:01):
You just look amazed by that. OF
a like flypaper, where it sticks to thestomach, And then you can just bring it in?
No, it surrounds the food, and then all the digestive enzymes digest it.
OF (12:14):
Outside the body… EM
it sucks it up when it's all more liquidised.OF: Right. And do you know how often they feed?
EM (12:22):
Not that often. Once a day? OF
doesn't it expend a whole bunch of energy to…EM: Yeah, and they don't really move around a
lot. You know, they don't need that much food.OF: Right. Thank you. These are good, these
facts. Well, we talked about what you're doingnow. So wow on earth did you get to this point?
So I started my career in Weymouth, working for the same department.
OF (12:47):
Where is Weymouth, for those who don't know the UK?
EM (12:49):
Sorry, it’s in the south of England, a lovely little town in the south of England
that I'm very fond of. And I started my careerthere, working for this department. And I just
had the opportunity, really, to travel andsupport the sites. It's been, I guess, a lot
of spontaneous decisions, and sacrifices, butalso wonderful options, that have led me to now
(13:13):
living in China. I certainly don't take the easyroute. I'm up for taking random challenges on,
whether they be in China or wherever. But itleads to a unique and fun life. And I've met
some incredible people along the way.OF: And what was your very first job
(13:34):
in this field? Do you remember that?EM: So I started as a jellyfish aquarist.
OF (13:39):
Oh. EM
were breeding jellyfish to supply to the other SeaLife aquariums in the UK and Europe. Quite random,
as a first job.OF: Right.
EM (13:50):
And then I moved on to doing the same for seahorses. So we breed jellyfish and
seahorses for display in other Sea Lifecentres. So we weren't taking them from
the wild, we were captive breeding them.OF: And I guess there must be quite a few
people who’d studied marine biology, but probablyit's quite rare to land the job, even though it
was just jellyfish. Like, you say it was random,but I bet it was pretty lucky at that point.
(14:12):
Very lucky. OF
I think when I chose to do marine biology, everyone was saying to me, there's no money in
animals or dead people.OF: Oh, what?
This was the advice I was given, yes. OF
I know. But apparently, there's no money in it. As a pathologist.
OF (14:28):
Oh EM
I was just so interested in it, that I went aheadand did the degree. And it was so lucky. I was so
lucky to get the opportunity that I was given.OF: Well then, obviously somebody who was your
senior back then told you that piece of advice.If there was a youngster here in the room,
(14:50):
saying “I want to do this”, what advice wouldyou give them then, admitting that it was lucky?
EM (14:54):
Oh, absolutely follow your heart and your passion. I think you have to want to get up for
work, you have to have a bit of passion and a bitof drive for it. And it's not always easy, and
it’s long hours, but if you care, then you'll doit. And so 100% go with your gut. For anyone who
wants to get into the marine biology industry, Istrongly recommend doing a lot of work experience,
(15:17):
it all falls down to work experience now.OF: It's funny you said that about just
following your heart, because I can obviouslyyour passionate about this is palpable,
even in this small room. And it reminds methat you actually haven't had a very easy time,
especially in the last year, with health issues.EM: So last year was certainly the most
challenging year of my life so far. You know, itwas nothing major, but it was an accumulation of
different stresses (15:42):
settling into China, settling into the new job. It just all
happened in one year. Very, very challenging, butvery grateful to be where I am now. And it just
makes you a stronger person, right? If you gothrough things like that, and you come out the
other end with a smile. It was all worth it.OF: Absolutely. Well, look, thanks so much
(16:05):
for that. It's been a pleasure speakingto you about this. Before we go into the
next section, I have to obviously say FISH FACT!EM: Oh, OK. Fish fact, fish fact. Male angler fish
glue themselves to the female vagina to mate.OF: What?
OF (16:21):
OK, thank you for that. I really didn't know we're going to be going
down this route with these fish facts.I’m starting to reconsider this idea.
EM (16:29):
Sorry, I'll keep it clean from now on. OF
the next section.EM: OK.
[Part 2]OF: So here we go. What
is your favourite China-related fact?EM: Oh, that one in every five
people in the world as Chinese.OF: Is it one in five? Wow. And
(16:52):
presumably they’re not all in China,this is the whole diaspora included?
Yes. OF
have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?EM: This is really obvious. But my favourite
one is 没有 [méiyǒu].OF: 没有 [Méiyǒu].
Because of the amount of times it's been said to me during the beluga project.
OF (17:09):
Right. EM
because of that word. So I wouldn't say itwas my favourite, but it's the most relevant.
Absolutely. And just to any non-Chinese speakers, what does it mean?
EM (17:21):
No. OF
favourite destination within China?EM: I'm a big fan of 三亚 [Sānyà].
Just because it's beachy, and it'smore my kind of thing than a city.
OF (17:33):
It's the closest thing to Weymouth in China. EM
Right. Do you know, I haven't been there yet. EM
Yes. EM
OK. I think it's because whenever I go south, I tend to go to Hong Kong.
And I would get a little bit in trouble if Igo all the way down, and don’t go there. But
maybe next time, I'll just do it on the sly.EM: Yeah, you should pop over, it’s worth it.
Oh, very nice. EM
(17:55):
Oh! EM
Go on. EM
is the most popular hobby in China.OF: Is that right, though?
EM (18:05):
That's what I read. OF
Yeah, that's what it said. OF
I'll see if that's right or not.EM: OK.
OF (18:13):
If you did leave China, what would be the thing you missed the most,
and what would be the thing you missed the least?EM: The thing I've missed the most? Definitely the
people. I've met such wonderful people here. Thething that I wouldn't miss is - I've got to say
it - it’s the spitting.OF: Oh.
EM (18:31):
I still can’t… I still can't get used to it. OF
especially in Shanghai, I find that they didn'treally do it as much as perhaps in other areas.
Maybe we move in different circles. OF
I had my family in town, and we were travelling.And it's the one thing my father - who is very
(18:53):
patient and open-minded and easygoing - it’sthe one thing he will lose his **** over.
Yeah. OF
you know what, it's overblown. People don't reallydo it as much as you think”. And then, of course,
this taxi driver literally, every other trafficlight he would open the window and hock a loogie.
Yeah, it's not good. And my favourite is when I'm on my scooter, and the guy in front decides to
(19:15):
hock one out. That’s lovely, when it sprays on me.OF: OK.
So I won't miss that OF
For sure. OF
where you are, you get a lot more earthy people.EM: Earthy people. Yes, it's in, I think, the
second biggest park in Shanghai. That's where ouraquarium is based. So there's a lot of the older
(19:38):
generation bringing grandchildren there.OF: Right.
It’s wonderful in the mornings when they're doing Tai Chi and everyone's out,
you know, playing sports and stuff, but…OF: How funny. Now, is there anything
that still mystifies you about life in China?EM: Oh, um, everything. Everything mystifies
me. I think every day there's something thatfascinates me. I still can't get my head around
(20:05):
any of it, but it's fabulous.OF: Where's your favourite
place to go eat drink or hang out?EM: Oh, um, where's my favourite
place? I tend to be lazy with it, really. Kindof Funkadeli area, just because it's five minutes
walk from home, there's always people there.I love hotpot. So any good hotpot restaurant.
OF (20:29):
Even the spicy one? EM
I love that. So, yeah, I float around. Iwouldn't say I have one place in particular.
Right. EM
travel quite a lot for work. So I wouldn't sayI'm here that often to be a regular anywhere.
Right. And what is the best or the worst purchase you made in China?
EM (20:50):
So I'm addicted to Taobao. OF
in that chair who’s said that.EM: But the best purchase is
definitely my scooter.OF: Oh, right.
Yeah. I love my scooter. OF
Really? OF
Oh, wow. You can come for ride
on it if you want.OF: Oh, yes please.
Worst purchase? Probably some fake red wine I bought from a shop once. Clearly
(21:15):
in the wrong bottle.OF: Really?
It was awful. OF
interesting. So it does happen, because I heard
that as a kind of apocryphal tale.EM: It definitely happens. Oh right.
OF (21:24):
What's your favourite WeChat sticker? In fact, turn on your phone and send it to me.
EM (21:29):
OK. OF
don't you explain what's going on in that sticker?EM: Um, so it's a woman with attitude, strutting
down the street. And she grabs a businessmanand starts dry-humping him, and his face.
OF (21:49):
Oh my word! EM
how to describe it. How would you describe it?OF: That's how it looks. I'm actually… I'm a
little bit embarrassed, am I going red?EM: That’s why it's my
favourite. You have to post it.OF: OK, I'm posting it. I definitely… I'm
doing it under duress. This is objectifying.I am completely scandalised by this one.
EM (22:09):
OK, I’m sorry to put you in that position. OF
your go-to song to sing at KTV?EM: Um, so I'm not much of a singer
at KTV. I'm usually the one sat down watching,drinking the wine. But I would go ‘Hey, Jude’.
OF (22:25):
Oh. EM
Even with all the long “Laa, laa, laa…” EM
joins in with the “Laa, laa”s.OF: Really?
EM (22:34):
Yeah. OF
Maybe it's an end-of-the-night kind of one. OF
you are at the 10th “Laa, laa, laa…”EM: Yeah. And everyone's too drunk
to remember me singing.OF: That's actually a
very good point, because theneveryone sings on top of you,
and you can just slide away andgo back to the wine in the corner.
Exactly. OF
It’s tactical. OF
media or sources of information do you rely on?EM: Probably SmartShanghai.
(23:00):
SmartShanghai and WeChat are my two. And Taobao.OF: Yep.
These are my three China apps that I go to. OF
last question I asked everyone is, if Iwere to interview someone who you know,
who would that person be?EM: So I'm going to nominate my
friend Oanh who is a flavour chemist. She workshere in Shanghai, I think she's been here three
(23:26):
years now with her company. Very interestingjob, I don't know anybody else who does it. So
she would be my recommendation.OF: Sounds perfect. Well,
thank you so much.EM: Thank you.
[Outro]OF: Well,
what can I say, that was at once one of themost silly, and the most sublime episodes
of the season. A big thanks again toEmily for being such a good sport.
(23:49):
The first thing I wanted to say is the factthat Emily mentioned about stamp collecting.
So I read that there has been a recent boomin the last few years in stamp collecting
as a hobby in China. And an estimated onethird of all global stamp collectors are
now in China. But what I couldn't find wasanything that said that stamp collecting
was the number one hobby in China. I'mgoing to put this question out there on
(24:12):
the WeChat groups and see if anyone knowsmore about that. If you'd like to join the
conversations, please add me on my Wechat ID: mosaicofchina, and I'll add you there myself. (24:16):
undefined
The second thing, of course, is an update aboutthe whales. So I'm happy to report that since this
episode was recorded, the whales have at last beenflown successfully to Iceland. They're doing very
well. They're currently in another holding tankand have been going through further training and
(24:36):
preparation to be released into the bay itselfin Iceland. Emily let me know that some of the
Chinese team has continued to be involved in thislong process, which won't be completed until well
into next year. I've posted lots and lots ofphotos of the whales on social media. Apart from
WeChat, you can also find these on Instagram under@mosaicofchina_ and Facebook under @mosaicofchina.
(24:56):
There's the special transport structure that Emilymentioned. There's the whale going into the plane
itself, and really a gratuitous amount of photosof the whales, who are so full of personality.
Some of these were from Emily, and otherswere from the Instagram account which has
accompanied this whole project. You can findthat on @belugawhalesanctuary, all one word.
(25:17):
The other graphics are of course Emily and herobject, the diving mask; her favourite sticker,
which I take no responsibility for; there’s agraphic for 没有 [méiyǒu], the word that means ‘no’,
which Emily encountered so much during theproject. Actually, this graphic is a strange
panda/human hybrid character that I've seen alot on social media in China, but I have no idea
(25:40):
where it comes from. So that's another thing thatI need an answer for. I'll ask the WeChat groups,
but if you know then, please get in touch.There's also SmartShanghai; there’s Funkadeli;
there's also a photo of 三亚 [Sānyà] in China sideby side with Weymouth in the UK. I haven't been to
either place myself, so I was quite surprisedto see the vague similarity between the two.
(26:02):
And for anyone else keeping tally Emily's answersalso link very nicely to other episodes in Season
01. So her answer to what what she missedthe most if she left China was the people,
which is the same as Sebastien Denes,the diversity advocate from Episode 11.
Her answer to “Is there anything that stillmystifies you about China” was “Everything",
(26:23):
which is exactly the same answer as Eric,the journalist from Episode 03. And finally,
her answer to the question about herbest purchase in China was her scooter,
which is now the fourth mentioned of that answer.The others were Philippe, the Disneyland CEO from
Episode 01; Jorge, the marketer at Coca-Cola fromEpisode 05; and Vy from FitFam in Episode 08.
(26:44):
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extraediting support from Milo de Prieto,
artwork by Denny Newell, and Chinasupport from Alston Gong. And this week,
as a special treat to anyone who has listenedthis far, I'm including some extra audio. I
usually have a bit of silly chitchat witheach guest at the start of their interview,
just to get us both relaxed. And as you canimagine, my chitchat with Emily was sillier
(27:07):
than most, so I thought you mightlike to hear it. See you next time.
[Easter Egg]OF: I was thinking this morning,
I have a friend called Jennifer, and she has areally big thing which she doesn't like about
(27:31):
men in showers.EM: Right?
OF (27:33):
It's when a man - I think it's usually a man, but you can correct me if you know of any women
who do this - when you're in the shower, you blowyour nose. You hold one nostril and all of it goes
out, and then you hold the other one, “bleurgh!”EM: I don't think that's a common thing for
people to do. I've never seen a man dothis, but then I can't say I've watched
many men shower. I can confirm I don't do this.OF: Because the steam from the shower, it loosens
(27:58):
it. And so it's basically running anyway, I think.EM: I mean, I'll look out for it.
Yeah EM
feed back.OF: OK.
[Trailer]EM: She grabs a businessman and
(00:05):
starts dry-humping him, and his face.OF: Oh my word!
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
I'm really excited about releasing today'sepisode. It was a lot of fun to record, and
hopefully just as fun to listen to. So let's notwaste any time at all. Here is the conversation.
(00:30):
[Part 1]OF: Thank
you so much for coming, Emily.EM: Thank you for having me.
OF (00:36):
I'm here with Emily Madge. And Emily is the Head of Asia for Conservation,
Welfare and Education at Sea Life.EM: Indeed I am.
And we met, actually in the last year, we were at an event which was being held
by our artist friend, Tom. Isn't that right?EM: Which makes us sound very cultured, yes.
Yes. That's exactly what I was going for. And when you told me what you did,
(00:58):
I thought “Oh you know what, I have to have you onthis podcast.” And we'll find out why in a moment.
But before we do, the first thing I ask everyoneis, what is the object that you've bought which in
some way typifies your life here in China?EM: So I've brought with me a diving mask.
Oh, very good. EM
I work for an aquarium called Sea Life. And I lookafter the Asian aquariums we have, as part of the
(01:27):
Conservation, Welfare and Engagement. So I'm basedhere in Shanghai, and I brought the object because
not only does it represent my career - I’m amarine biologist, I studied it at Aberystwyth
University, but it also represents my love forthe ocean, my hobbies, and how I got into my job.
(01:48):
Great. Well, there’s a lot of details you've already put in there. Maybe the first detail I
should jump in on is ‘Aberystwyth’. For peoplewho don't know where that is, where are you from?
EM (01:57):
So I'm from Cardiff in Wales, and Aberystwyth is a university more north in Wales.
OF (02:04):
Great. So all together, how long have you been in this field?
EM (02:08):
11 years. OF
interested me when we first talked is specificallywhat you're doing here in China. There's been
something which is very special here. So whydon't you explain what has been I guess the bane
of your life, really, for the last few months.EM: So we acquired Shanghai Aquarium a few years
(02:30):
ago, and we acquired it with two beluga whalesthat they were keeping. And as part of Sea Life
policy, we do not keep marine mammals or cetaceansin captivity. So part of the acquisition was a
plan to re-home and retire these whales, so theycan live out the rest of their lives in a better
(02:50):
place. And so a huge amount of work has goneinto finding a retirement home for them, which
has now been confirmed as a semi-wild sanctuaryin Iceland. So the past ooh I'd say a year,
I've been working closely with colleagues to workour way to move these whales from Shanghai over to
(03:12):
Iceland. There's been a lot of work involved.OF: Right. When I first thought about this
situation, I thought about when you're inChina, you come up against a lot of red tape,
and sometimes it can be very Kafka-esque.You don't quite know how things are decided,
it can be almost arbitrary. Where doyou start with transporting a whale?
Good question. So there's been lots of details we've had to cover. We have to prepare the whales
(03:38):
for transport themselves. So we've had to do alot of desensitisation training; we’ve had to
train them new behaviours; we've had to increasetheir body fat, so they've got enough blubber to
keep them warm in the cold Icelandic waters. Wehave engaged a transport company called Cargolux,
(03:58):
who will be flying the whales over.OF: Well, that was one of my questions.
Yes, they will be flying, not swimming. And we've built bespoke transport boxes for
them. So they'll be put in a transport stretcherand then that transport stretcher will sit in a
box filled with water. And then we'llhave vets and trainers on the flight,
(04:20):
taking care of the animals the whole time.OF: Wow. OK. Well, let's dissect that a
little bit. How much of that, that you justdescribed, would have been the case anywhere
in the world? And how much have you hadto deal with specifically for China?
So it has been done, they move marine mammals around the world. Obviously, there's a lot of
(04:41):
beluga whales and killer whales here. So they movethem from Russia. There's quite a few people in
the industry. But it's very unique for us to bemoving whales out of China. And it's taken a lot
of good relationships and a lot of time and energyto secure that agreement, that we can move them.
And it's been a very, very interesting project,because we're going out of China back into Europe.
(05:06):
The details around it, I could bore you for days.OF: What can you think of maybe one thing that has
gone particularly smoothly, and then maybeone thing that's been the most difficult.
So I think that generally the project's gone very smoothly. The whales are in great health,
we've got a great team of peopleworking with them. Logistically,
(05:28):
we've built these boxes from scratch, oneof my colleagues designed them just based on
some information he had from other marine mammaltransports. We've engaged consultants and vets,
everyone's been very engaged in the process. Andso it's been a very smooth process, in that sense.
There have been so many challenges along theway. Fine details. Ice on the plane was an issue.
OF (05:55):
Ice on the plane? EM
We've had various hurdles, small detailsthat you wouldn't imagine would be a problem,
have then been a problem. So it's requireda lot of patience. But we finally got there.
And tell me more about this structure that you built. Do you have a photo that maybe you
(06:15):
can share with me afterwards?EM: Yeah, of course.
Great. EM
structure that's reinforced, obviously, to handlethe weight of lifting the whales. The whales are,
we think about one tonne in weight. Sothe poles have had to be bespoke-made,
as well as the stretcher to fit the whale. Andthen we've had to actually train the whales to
(06:37):
swim into the stretcher as a desensitisationprocess so that they don’t freak out when we
actually put the stretcher in the water. So wedesigned those way back when, and we've been
working with the whales with them ever since.OF: Now let me interject here with… If now and
again, I can just say the words “fishfact” at you, would you be able to say
(06:57):
a fish fact about anything that theaverage listener wouldn't have known?
EM (07:00):
I can indeed. OF
OK, fish fact. So everyone knows Nemo. So all clown fish are actually born as males, but they
live in a hierarchy. So the female fish is at thetop - there’s only one female - and when she dies,
(07:22):
another male will transition into a female.OF: Wow. So hang on, there’s only one
female giving birth to the whole shoal?EM: Only one female laying eggs, yeah.
OF (07:31):
Oh, my word. OK. My mind has gone into something quite dirty right now.
That would be a very different Nemo movie.EM: It's not that dirty. She lays eggs,
and then the male comes in andfertilises them separate, so…
Exactly. Exactly. Sorry, OK. Well I will definitely jump in with another question later.
(07:52):
But going back to the whale, then. So you'veacclimatised the whale to swimming into this
harness, I guess is what it is, a sling.EM: Yes.
But how did you get them acclimatised to being on a plane? Because that's
something which you probably can't predict.EM: Yep. So there's no way of doing that.
The only thing we can do is ensure that we'vegot everything in their environment perfect. So
(08:13):
that when they when they're actually in transit,they're as comfortable as possible. And so that
goes with water temperature, we have a filtrationsystem that's on the flight circulating the water,
we have vets with them the whole time, trainerswith them who they're familiar with to keep
them reassured throughout the journey.There's so much going into it. As you say,
(08:33):
we can't predict what they'll do on the flight.But we know we can keep them as calm as possible.
I've been on some flights where actually I wouldn't mind
having somebody there to give me a massage.EM: I know. I think this is first class treatment.
Absolutely. OK, so this has been pretty much the key part of
your experience in China, I would assume.EM: Yes, this has definitely been a huge
(08:53):
focus for me since I've been here.OF: Apart from dealing with a whale,
how has your experience in China been differentto your other experiences over the last 11 years?
EM (09:02):
Gosh, very different. It's been my first shot in a regional role. So looking after more
than one aquarium, but being based in China, hasbeen eye opening, and a new way of working for me.
OF (09:17):
Hang on, FISH FACT! EM
when you turn a shark upside down, itgoes into a state of trance, it’s called
‘tonic immobility’. And it’ll just lie therecompletely still until you turn it back over.
That's exactly like me with gin and tonic immobility. And have you seen
(09:38):
this, or is it just something you've heard of?EM: Yeah, absolutely. They use it quite a
lot in other aquariums so we can do medicalchecks and stuff. So you turn the shark over,
you can do a full examination withouthaving to sedate or use any medication.
Wow, that’s handy, right? EM
want to try it with a great white, but people haveOF: Wow. OK, well thank you for that. Going back
(09:59):
then, to what we were still talking about withChina, in terms of the people you work with
here then, how have they managed you coming in?EM: They've been so welcoming, it's been very
different for me being in a remote supportrole to all these other aquariums. So not
having a real team was a big shock for me.But the guys in the China office have been
fabulous. I think there's any one otherforeigner in the office, and they do they
(10:25):
take care of us. And they've been wonderful. So…OF: You said in general, it's not a big deal to
have mammals and whales in aquariums in China.What has been your experience of, to what extent
your situation here in Shanghai is similar toelsewhere in China, or in what way it's unique?
EM (10:40):
No, very unique. I think there's a huge aquarium industry in China, and there are so many
opening every year. And marine mammals are partof that, the Chinese do love big marine mammals,
and having that selfie moment, and seeing theshows. So what we're doing is quite the opposite,
(11:01):
it’s very unique in that sense. We’ve had alot of guests in, and we were talking about
what we're doing, and we've had good feedback fromthe guests that have come into the aquarium, when
we've told them about the project. But it's justa new initiative for China, and hopefully, it will
influence and educate some of the Chinese guests- who do like aquariums, and who do visit marine
(11:26):
mammal parks - to just perhaps start thinkingdifferently about marine mammals in captivity.
OF (11:31):
Right. So your point is that it's more an education in ecology and sustainability. And it's
not about the entertainment side,as much as the education side.
EM (11:39):
Of course, yeah. OF
Ach, OK. Fish fact. Um, so when a starfish eats, it expels its stomach out of its mouth,
digests the food externally, and thensucks it up. And sucks its stomach back in,
to take it in.OF: Wow.
(12:01):
You just look amazed by that. OF
a like flypaper, where it sticks to thestomach, And then you can just bring it in?
No, it surrounds the food, and then all the digestive enzymes digest it.
OF (12:14):
Outside the body… EM
it sucks it up when it's all more liquidised.OF: Right. And do you know how often they feed?
EM (12:22):
Not that often. Once a day? OF
doesn't it expend a whole bunch of energy to…EM: Yeah, and they don't really move around a
lot. You know, they don't need that much food.OF: Right. Thank you. These are good, these
facts. Well, we talked about what you're doingnow. So wow on earth did you get to this point?
So I started my career in Weymouth, working for the same department.
OF (12:47):
Where is Weymouth, for those who don't know the UK?
EM (12:49):
Sorry, it’s in the south of England, a lovely little town in the south of England
that I'm very fond of. And I started my careerthere, working for this department. And I just
had the opportunity, really, to travel andsupport the sites. It's been, I guess, a lot
of spontaneous decisions, and sacrifices, butalso wonderful options, that have led me to now
(13:13):
living in China. I certainly don't take the easyroute. I'm up for taking random challenges on,
whether they be in China or wherever. But itleads to a unique and fun life. And I've met
some incredible people along the way.OF: And what was your very first job
(13:34):
in this field? Do you remember that?EM: So I started as a jellyfish aquarist.
OF (13:39):
Oh. EM
were breeding jellyfish to supply to the other SeaLife aquariums in the UK and Europe. Quite random,
as a first job.OF: Right.
EM (13:50):
And then I moved on to doing the same for seahorses. So we breed jellyfish and
seahorses for display in other Sea Lifecentres. So we weren't taking them from
the wild, we were captive breeding them.OF: And I guess there must be quite a few
people who’d studied marine biology, but probablyit's quite rare to land the job, even though it
was just jellyfish. Like, you say it was random,but I bet it was pretty lucky at that point.
(14:12):
Very lucky. OF
I think when I chose to do marine biology, everyone was saying to me, there's no money in
animals or dead people.OF: Oh, what?
This was the advice I was given, yes. OF
I know. But apparently, there's no money in it. As a pathologist.
OF (14:28):
Oh EM
I was just so interested in it, that I went aheadand did the degree. And it was so lucky. I was so
lucky to get the opportunity that I was given.OF: Well then, obviously somebody who was your
senior back then told you that piece of advice.If there was a youngster here in the room,
(14:50):
saying “I want to do this”, what advice wouldyou give them then, admitting that it was lucky?
EM (14:54):
Oh, absolutely follow your heart and your passion. I think you have to want to get up for
work, you have to have a bit of passion and a bitof drive for it. And it's not always easy, and
it’s long hours, but if you care, then you'll doit. And so 100% go with your gut. For anyone who
wants to get into the marine biology industry, Istrongly recommend doing a lot of work experience,
(15:17):
it all falls down to work experience now.OF: It's funny you said that about just
following your heart, because I can obviouslyyour passionate about this is palpable,
even in this small room. And it reminds methat you actually haven't had a very easy time,
especially in the last year, with health issues.EM: So last year was certainly the most
challenging year of my life so far. You know, itwas nothing major, but it was an accumulation of
different stresses (15:42):
settling into China, settling into the new job. It just all
happened in one year. Very, very challenging, butvery grateful to be where I am now. And it just
makes you a stronger person, right? If you gothrough things like that, and you come out the
other end with a smile. It was all worth it.OF: Absolutely. Well, look, thanks so much
(16:05):
for that. It's been a pleasure speakingto you about this. Before we go into the
next section, I have to obviously say FISH FACT!EM: Oh, OK. Fish fact, fish fact. Male angler fish
glue themselves to the female vagina to mate.OF: What?
OF (16:21):
OK, thank you for that. I really didn't know we're going to be going
down this route with these fish facts.I’m starting to reconsider this idea.
EM (16:29):
Sorry, I'll keep it clean from now on. OF
the next section.EM: OK.
[Part 2]OF: So here we go. What
is your favourite China-related fact?EM: Oh, that one in every five
people in the world as Chinese.OF: Is it one in five? Wow. And
(16:52):
presumably they’re not all in China,this is the whole diaspora included?
Yes. OF
have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?EM: This is really obvious. But my favourite
one is 没有 [méiyǒu].OF: 没有 [Méiyǒu].
Because of the amount of times it's been said to me during the beluga project.
OF (17:09):
Right. EM
because of that word. So I wouldn't say itwas my favourite, but it's the most relevant.
Absolutely. And just to any non-Chinese speakers, what does it mean?
EM (17:21):
No. OF
favourite destination within China?EM: I'm a big fan of 三亚 [Sānyà].
Just because it's beachy, and it'smore my kind of thing than a city.
OF (17:33):
It's the closest thing to Weymouth in China. EM
Right. Do you know, I haven't been there yet. EM
Yes. EM
OK. I think it's because whenever I go south, I tend to go to Hong Kong.
And I would get a little bit in trouble if Igo all the way down, and don’t go there. But
maybe next time, I'll just do it on the sly.EM: Yeah, you should pop over, it’s worth it.
Oh, very nice. EM
(17:55):
Oh! EM
Go on. EM
is the most popular hobby in China.OF: Is that right, though?
EM (18:05):
That's what I read. OF
Yeah, that's what it said. OF
I'll see if that's right or not.EM: OK.
OF (18:13):
If you did leave China, what would be the thing you missed the most,
and what would be the thing you missed the least?EM: The thing I've missed the most? Definitely the
people. I've met such wonderful people here. Thething that I wouldn't miss is - I've got to say
it - it’s the spitting.OF: Oh.
EM (18:31):
I still can’t… I still can't get used to it. OF
especially in Shanghai, I find that they didn'treally do it as much as perhaps in other areas.
Maybe we move in different circles. OF
I had my family in town, and we were travelling.And it's the one thing my father - who is very
(18:53):
patient and open-minded and easygoing - it’sthe one thing he will lose his **** over.
Yeah. OF
you know what, it's overblown. People don't reallydo it as much as you think”. And then, of course,
this taxi driver literally, every other trafficlight he would open the window and hock a loogie.
Yeah, it's not good. And my favourite is when I'm on my scooter, and the guy in front decides to
(19:15):
hock one out. That’s lovely, when it sprays on me.OF: OK.
So I won't miss that OF
For sure. OF
where you are, you get a lot more earthy people.EM: Earthy people. Yes, it's in, I think, the
second biggest park in Shanghai. That's where ouraquarium is based. So there's a lot of the older
(19:38):
generation bringing grandchildren there.OF: Right.
It’s wonderful in the mornings when they're doing Tai Chi and everyone's out,
you know, playing sports and stuff, but…OF: How funny. Now, is there anything
that still mystifies you about life in China?EM: Oh, um, everything. Everything mystifies
me. I think every day there's something thatfascinates me. I still can't get my head around
(20:05):
any of it, but it's fabulous.OF: Where's your favourite
place to go eat drink or hang out?EM: Oh, um, where's my favourite
place? I tend to be lazy with it, really. Kindof Funkadeli area, just because it's five minutes
walk from home, there's always people there.I love hotpot. So any good hotpot restaurant.
OF (20:29):
Even the spicy one? EM
I love that. So, yeah, I float around. Iwouldn't say I have one place in particular.
Right. EM
travel quite a lot for work. So I wouldn't sayI'm here that often to be a regular anywhere.
Right. And what is the best or the worst purchase you made in China?
EM (20:50):
So I'm addicted to Taobao. OF
in that chair who’s said that.EM: But the best purchase is
definitely my scooter.OF: Oh, right.
Yeah. I love my scooter. OF
Really? OF
Oh, wow. You can come for ride
on it if you want.OF: Oh, yes please.
Worst purchase? Probably some fake red wine I bought from a shop once. Clearly
(21:15):
in the wrong bottle.OF: Really?
It was awful. OF
interesting. So it does happen, because I heard
that as a kind of apocryphal tale.EM: It definitely happens. Oh right.
OF (21:24):
What's your favourite WeChat sticker? In fact, turn on your phone and send it to me.
EM (21:29):
OK. OF
don't you explain what's going on in that sticker?EM: Um, so it's a woman with attitude, strutting
down the street. And she grabs a businessmanand starts dry-humping him, and his face.
OF (21:49):
Oh my word! EM
how to describe it. How would you describe it?OF: That's how it looks. I'm actually… I'm a
little bit embarrassed, am I going red?EM: That’s why it's my
favourite. You have to post it.OF: OK, I'm posting it. I definitely… I'm
doing it under duress. This is objectifying.I am completely scandalised by this one.
EM (22:09):
OK, I’m sorry to put you in that position. OF
your go-to song to sing at KTV?EM: Um, so I'm not much of a singer
at KTV. I'm usually the one sat down watching,drinking the wine. But I would go ‘Hey, Jude’.
OF (22:25):
Oh. EM
Even with all the long “Laa, laa, laa…” EM
joins in with the “Laa, laa”s.OF: Really?
EM (22:34):
Yeah. OF
Maybe it's an end-of-the-night kind of one. OF
you are at the 10th “Laa, laa, laa…”EM: Yeah. And everyone's too drunk
to remember me singing.OF: That's actually a
very good point, because theneveryone sings on top of you,
and you can just slide away andgo back to the wine in the corner.
Exactly. OF
It’s tactical. OF
media or sources of information do you rely on?EM: Probably SmartShanghai.
(23:00):
SmartShanghai and WeChat are my two. And Taobao.OF: Yep.
These are my three China apps that I go to. OF
last question I asked everyone is, if Iwere to interview someone who you know,
who would that person be?EM: So I'm going to nominate my
friend Oanh who is a flavour chemist. She workshere in Shanghai, I think she's been here three
(23:26):
years now with her company. Very interestingjob, I don't know anybody else who does it. So
she would be my recommendation.OF: Sounds perfect. Well,
thank you so much.EM: Thank you.
[Outro]OF: Well,
what can I say, that was at once one of themost silly, and the most sublime episodes
of the season. A big thanks again toEmily for being such a good sport.
(23:49):
The first thing I wanted to say is the factthat Emily mentioned about stamp collecting.
So I read that there has been a recent boomin the last few years in stamp collecting
as a hobby in China. And an estimated onethird of all global stamp collectors are
now in China. But what I couldn't find wasanything that said that stamp collecting
was the number one hobby in China. I'mgoing to put this question out there on
(24:12):
the WeChat groups and see if anyone knowsmore about that. If you'd like to join the
conversations, please add me on my Wechat ID: mosaicofchina, and I'll add you there myself. (24:16):
undefined
The second thing, of course, is an update aboutthe whales. So I'm happy to report that since this
episode was recorded, the whales have at last beenflown successfully to Iceland. They're doing very
well. They're currently in another holding tankand have been going through further training and
(24:36):
preparation to be released into the bay itselfin Iceland. Emily let me know that some of the
Chinese team has continued to be involved in thislong process, which won't be completed until well
into next year. I've posted lots and lots ofphotos of the whales on social media. Apart from
WeChat, you can also find these on Instagram under@mosaicofchina_ and Facebook under @mosaicofchina.
(24:56):
There's the special transport structure that Emilymentioned. There's the whale going into the plane
itself, and really a gratuitous amount of photosof the whales, who are so full of personality.
Some of these were from Emily, and otherswere from the Instagram account which has
accompanied this whole project. You can findthat on @belugawhalesanctuary, all one word.
(25:17):
The other graphics are of course Emily and herobject, the diving mask; her favourite sticker,
which I take no responsibility for; there’s agraphic for 没有 [méiyǒu], the word that means ‘no’,
which Emily encountered so much during theproject. Actually, this graphic is a strange
panda/human hybrid character that I've seen alot on social media in China, but I have no idea
(25:40):
where it comes from. So that's another thing thatI need an answer for. I'll ask the WeChat groups,
but if you know then, please get in touch.There's also SmartShanghai; there’s Funkadeli;
there's also a photo of 三亚 [Sānyà] in China sideby side with Weymouth in the UK. I haven't been to
either place myself, so I was quite surprisedto see the vague similarity between the two.
(26:02):
And for anyone else keeping tally Emily's answersalso link very nicely to other episodes in Season
01. So her answer to what what she missedthe most if she left China was the people,
which is the same as Sebastien Denes,the diversity advocate from Episode 11.
Her answer to “Is there anything that stillmystifies you about China” was “Everything",
(26:23):
which is exactly the same answer as Eric,the journalist from Episode 03. And finally,
her answer to the question about herbest purchase in China was her scooter,
which is now the fourth mentioned of that answer.The others were Philippe, the Disneyland CEO from
Episode 01; Jorge, the marketer at Coca-Cola fromEpisode 05; and Vy from FitFam in Episode 08.
(26:44):
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extraediting support from Milo de Prieto,
artwork by Denny Newell, and Chinasupport from Alston Gong. And this week,
as a special treat to anyone who has listenedthis far, I'm including some extra audio. I
usually have a bit of silly chitchat witheach guest at the start of their interview,
just to get us both relaxed. And as you canimagine, my chitchat with Emily was sillier
(27:07):
than most, so I thought you mightlike to hear it. See you next time.
[Easter Egg]OF: I was thinking this morning,
I have a friend called Jennifer, and she has areally big thing which she doesn't like about
(27:31):
men in showers.EM: Right?
OF (27:33):
It's when a man - I think it's usually a man, but you can correct me if you know of any women
who do this - when you're in the shower, you blowyour nose. You hold one nostril and all of it goes
out, and then you hold the other one, “bleurgh!”EM: I don't think that's a common thing for
people to do. I've never seen a man dothis, but then I can't say I've watched
many men shower. I can confirm I don't do this.OF: Because the steam from the shower, it loosens
(27:58):
it. And so it's basically running anyway, I think.EM: I mean, I'll look out for it.
Yeah EM
feed back.OF: OK.
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