December 16, 2019 • 26 mins
It's time to relect on the end of the year, and the end of the decade. So as you’re listening to Simon Manetti reflect on his last 10 years of choices and chances in China, take a moment to think about the forces that brought you to where you are today. Some of you might look back on your decade as a series of rational and linear decisions. Well congratulations to you. Personally I relate more to Simon: some rational decision; a few irrational ones thrown in; and otherwise a combination of luck, fate and opportunism. Thank you to Simon for being so open, eloquent, and... relatable. Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 02:05 - Part 1 19:55 - Part 2 24:22 - Outro Instagram: www.instagram.com/oscology Facebook: www.facebook.com/mosaicofchina WeChat: www.mosaicofchina.com/wechat
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
[Trailer]SM: I couldn't turn left. I've alienated one
of my hands. And, you know, I won't go anyfurther there.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
Thanks for all the comments on last week'sepisode with Nini. Although I did get a little
(00:24):
bit teased for mentioning ‘Linkin Park’and ‘punk’ in the same breath. Yep, that
was dumb. If you were inspired to try yourhand at producing your own screenprint artwork,
then the good news is that we've booked Nini’sstudio in Shanghai for the afternoon of Saturday
February 29th. There'll be a handful of guestsfrom Season 01, and there's room for around
10 listeners to also join. I'll be postingmore details on social media, so if you're
(00:48):
interested, please watch out for that in thenew year. We’re on @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram
and @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or add meon my WeChat ID: mosaicofchina, and I'll add
you to the group there.
And so today's episode will be the last oneof 2019. In fact, it's the last one of the
decade, I guess. So it's quite fitting thatthe episode being released today is the one
(01:08):
with Simon Manetti. As you’re listeningto Simon reflect on his last ten years of
choices and chances in China, take a momentto think about the forces that brought you
to where you are today. You might reflecton your decade as a series of rational, linear
decisions. Well, congratulations to you. Personally,I relate more to someone like Simon: definitely
(01:28):
some rational decision-making, but a few irrationalones thrown in, and otherwise a combination
of luck, fate and sheer opportunism.
A few quick notes about Simon story. At onepoint he uses the phrase ‘QC’, this means
‘Quality Control’. He mentions 炒鸡蛋西红柿[chǎojīdàn xīhóngshì], this is a standard
Chinese dish of eggs and tomatoes. And healso mentions ordering 外卖 [wàimài],
(01:53):
this just means ordering takeout food. Andfinally there was an issue with my mic during
this recording, but Simon's was fine, whichis lucky because he is the one with the great
voice.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you Simon. I'm here with Simon
Manetti. You’re a former lawyer, and nowyou're a guru of China retail tech.
SM (02:13):
Totally. OF
we start straightaway with your object. So,as people who are listening will know, I ask
people to bring in one object that in someway encapsulates your life in China. So talk
me through what you've bought today.SM: Yes, so on most university campuses in
China - at least those that welcomed foreigners- there is a Friendship Store. And when I
(02:35):
first came to China in 2006, I was studyingin BLCU in Beijing, and I bought my first
China lamp, or what turned out to be my onlyChina lamp. So to dispel the myth that everything
in China is poorly made, this little beautyhas been shining light on my endeavours for
(03:01):
13 years.OF: Oh wow.
And it has travelled with me on 4-5 city and international moves, and somehow has been
something that I've just not been able tolet go of.
OF (03:13):
Well, it's a nice link into your story, actually. So why don't you give us a little
summary of where you've moved with this lamp?SM: Yeah, sure. So I first came to China in
2006. This is immediately post-uni, just todate myself. Possibly the best year of my
life, at least until I met my wife.OF: Well said.
SM (03:34):
And it was a very different China, because China wasn't yet a thing…
OF (03:38):
Right. SM
So, much more adventurous..? SM
driven, right? It wasn't at that stage aboutbetter job prospects or anything. It actually
kind of blew up. At least for me, I was probablyjust ignorant, but perhaps they all knew.
They were mostly American, and they seem tobe a little more on point on these sorts of
things. The backwater Ozzy just sort of strolledout with his cork hat, sort of saying “This
(04:01):
place is alright.” But what I think bondedus further was the fact that we were able
to get motorbikes. You bought your licenceupon the purchase of the motorbike. I went
for the biggest motorbike I could see, thinkingthat would be the safest. And I'll never forget
riding straight off the curb, across the road,and into the other curb, and falling over.
(04:25):
And kind of shyly, embarrassed, emasculated,turning around, laughing. Got up, manoeuvred
my bike to run straight down the road, andre-commenced the journey. And tried to take
a left again, at this set of lights - andthis time, there was quite decent traffic
- straight down.OF: Oh man.
SM (04:45):
Straight down. So we took many highway journeys out of Beijing, used it as an escape
to get up around a place called 密云 [Mìyún].And for a good six months, I couldn't turn
left. If we had to take a left turn, I neededto be given a bit of notice, because I was
going to have to do a right turn little loop-de-loopin order to be able to join everybody. I've
(05:09):
alienated one of my hands. And, you know,I won't go any further there. Next question.
OF (05:17):
Have you since gained the use of your left hand, can you now turn left?
SM (05:21):
Um, I can turn left. I haven't ridden a motorbike for a while, I put those days
behind me. But I ride my bicycle a lot. Andyeah, I can turn left, yeah. But yeah, so
that was my memory of Beijing. I then dida bit of a ‘walkabout’ soul-searching
voyage around Europe and Australia, thinkingI needed a gap year after really just having
(05:44):
had a gap year. And then I landed back inChina, in 宁波 [Níngbō]. It was interesting.
It was not by choice, I was following a ladyat the time, who was at the Nottingham University.
So I moved straight into a Western compound.And I think we chose it primarily because
(06:08):
it was directly opposite the Metro. And apartfrom being there - or on my way to the factory
that I ended up working in - I can't say Isaw much of 宁波 [Níngbō], which is, yeah,
it's a shame. It was a manufacturing companythat specialised in ultra high-end silk bedding.
(06:32):
So with my nine months of 普通话 [Pǔtōnghuà],it somehow qualified me to be an intermediary
between the production staff and fieldingall the sales enquiries from the U.S. Sean
Connery and Catherine Zeta Jones were amongstour clients. And then I was responsible for
checking the order, and then most importantly,doing the QC. And I felt like such a ****, because
(06:59):
I would come in and tell these guys who’vebeen doing this all their lives… you know
those little arrows that you put on contracts,to show where someone has to sign?
OF (07:09):
Yeah. SM
and sticking them on this beautiful silk,just because I saw, like, something that I
thought might have been a little thread, ora blemish, and said “Sorry Mr. Wang, we're
gonna have to see to that”. And so I’dwalk out. And I felt as soon as I walked out,
everyone'd be rolling their eyes, and justgoing, like “This **** has no idea what
(07:32):
he's doing”. And it was absolutely true,and totally warranted. But the other aspect
of that experience that was telling, was thatI wasn't forward-thinking enough each day
to pack my own lunch. Everyone else broughttheir own food, and I went to the only ‘restaurant’
- and air quotes don't really work on podcasts,but that's what I'm doing - which was a tin
(07:58):
shed with a gas blower and an open fridgewhere you could choose what food you wanted.
And I just got the 炒鸡蛋西红柿 [chǎojīdànxīhóngshì] every day. And I never got sick
of it, to be honest, I have been able to eatit since. It was 6 RMB, I'll never forget
that, 6 RMB every day. But it was also seen,I was seen as, like, this VIP **** who would
(08:23):
go and eat at the restaurant as opposed tobeing with the people. And if I could go back,
I would. I think I missed out on so many lessonsby not being in the staff canteen, and being
with the people. So that was 宁波 [Níngbō],but I did jump to the the production experience.
(08:43):
But… and I’m basically here just to flushout everything that I regret. It’s kind
of cathartic, I hope that's OK, Oscar, becausethis is a cathartic experience.
Oh yeah. I mean, you’ve said that you've been a **** about three times…
SM (08:53):
Look, it needs to get out of me. I'm not proud of this - and no-one should be - but
when I first got to 宁波 [Níngbō], I actuallydidn't find the production job immediately.
I found a job to teach - to facilitate - akindergarten. Because everyone knows what
it's like, right? You need to get that visalocked in. And they were absolutely lovely,
(09:16):
as you'd imagine people who run a kindergartento be. Though, the principal was this ex-army
dude, chain-smoking, crew-cut, the works.And on my first day, after they've just given
me this wonderful welcoming tour, everyone'ssuper excited to have me there, they sit me
down at a desk much like this one. And I tookabout three minutes to realise that this is
(09:42):
absolutely not for me. So I stood up; I startedwalking down the stairs; I knew I'd have to
get past the guy at the front door, so I didthe classic, picked up my phone, nodded to
him, started talking like I was ordering 外卖[wàimài]; got out the front door; and just
bolted.OF: Oh, wow,
Yeah. And never, ever looked back. I didn't think it through - which may be a common theme
(10:09):
today - but my visa was in processing. I hadn'treceived it yet. So I then stressed for the
next week that the former Army guy would bethere with his buddies, waiting for me at
the doors - or behind the bushes - of thevisa collection point. And when I got there
and got my visa, I was so relieved that Ididn't even think to check any of the details.
(10:35):
Fast forward three weeks, I'm in Shanghaihaving a jolly, thinking I'm the king, and
I'm trying to get into a youth hostel. Andthey're like “No, sorry, your visa expired
three days ago”.OF: Oh.
So that's where I also got my first and only visa warning. Out to the PSB. And always
check, people (10:56):
If you **** over an employer while they are getting your visa, they may
not cancel it, but they may adjust the termof that visa. That is China **** 101.
OF (11:11):
I mean, I'd like to feel sorry for you. But I think that was probably the just desserts,
right? SM (11:17):
Yeah, yeah. OF
experience. And this is part of the reasonI wanted to speak to you on this podcast,
because you've had three or four differentrebirths in China. So what was your next Renaissance?
SM (11:32):
Hmm. So 宁波 [Níngbō] then Shanghai. Right, so this was Shanghai Chapter 1. And
this was prior to the road - or the bridge- that now spans the Bay of 杭州 [Hángzhōu],
but at that time we were spending almost everyweekend on the train - via 杭州 [Hángzhōu]
- to get to Shanghai. I think everyone whowas part of that were like “Yeah, we have
(11:54):
to end up here, as quickly as possible”.So then I started working for a branding agency.
And that was 18 months to two years of mylife. We called ourselves ‘halfpats’ then
- I think even that term was too grandiose- we were locally-hired, entry-level expats
(12:19):
who are coming in and trying to make a career.And what I noticed was that I was going to
have a very hard slog. So that's what ledme to think “OK, I need hard skills”.
So, you know, my interest led me to law, whichis what had me cross paths with the person
that put us in touch.OF: That was how we first met, through Nestor,
right?SM: Yes, exactly. So Nestor was running a
(12:42):
business that was facilitating foreign investorsin China, helping them set up with it, their
WFOEs, and overcome all the different issuesthat arise in that process.
OF (12:51):
And I should just jump in and explain that WFOE, for people who don't know, is a
Wholly Foreign-Owned Enterprise, right?SM: Hmm. So that was a really, really interesting
time. Snd confirmed my interest in going inthat direction, in sort of a commercial corporate
law direction. So that's when I ping-pong’edbetween London, Hong Kong, and London for
(13:14):
the next five years, as I got my trainingcontract. I went to Hong Kong, landed there,
got to the firm, I didn't really think itthrough - again, we're returning to that theme
- but I got to them, I said “Look, I'd liketo transfer my training contract, it's in
the UK at the moment, can I?” And they said“No”. And I said “OK, well I'm already
(13:38):
here and I'm having a great time, can I juststay on and paralegal?” And they let me,
and that was wonderful. Still, a lot of mybest mates in the world are there. But because
I had to return to London to formalise mylegal path, I did so. But even while there,
(13:59):
I think I realised that it's very easy tolose yourself in the rat race. And I did,
I was actually really enjoying it. But thenone day out of the blue, I had a mate of a
mate ask me if I wanted to open up a businessin a field that I had absolutely no interest
(14:20):
or experience in.OF: Was it was it beds and mattresses again?
SM (14:24):
It wasn't beds and mattresses again, it was in shopper marketing.
OF (14:28):
Hmm. SM
that it was going to be in China, and it wasthe chance to open up a business here. And
so within a few months, I was sort of flungin as the sole man on the ground in Shanghai.
And this is the chapter that I'm in now. Sothat was five years ago. For anyone wondering,
(14:53):
I've since run that business into the ground.It turns out that you shouldn't manage a business
you don't understand at all. Yeah.OF: Oh right..! I’m glad that you are able
to share this wisdom with us.SM: Yeah, yeah. And maybe we can just edit
everything before that, because that's allpeople really need to know.
Yeah. There are many people who I think have a similar story. You kept saying that
(15:17):
the through line was not thinking things through.SM: Hmm.
But what I would call it is ‘a sense of adventure’, and a tenacity, and also
a humility to do things where maybe therewasn't a direct progression, it was more of
a sideways move, but something where it opensup your extra options. You know, you've said
that there are things that you do regret,and I can obviously see why. But look at you
(15:41):
now, you know.SM: Hmm.
I would say you're in a place where you can look back and say “Well, it all happened
for a reason”. Do you see any advice thatyou would give, particularly? Or has it all
been just ‘going with the flow'?SM: I would say, follow your heart, follow
your interests, and you will find these disparatepoints will be threaded together somehow.
(16:02):
That's one point. I think the other thingis you need to have some sort of common thread
that’s binding your experiences. And forme, there's a fascination with China, and
being in China, that has to drive you forwardin whatever you do. If you no longer want
to be here, I don't have any advice for you.I'm on the other side. And I don't know why.
(16:23):
A lot of people ask me why. It's kind of likewhen a partner says “Why do you love me?”
And it’s… “I don’t know…. You'rehot…? You make me laugh…?” I don't know
what the equivalent is for China. I thinkthat it’s, I'm always surprised. And I guess
it's kind of like a drug, you just get addictedto the optimism and the growth and the idea
(16:49):
that, you know, things are going to get better.Here, and in your life. It's infectious. But
I've spoken to some mates who are in my positionnow about this, And I’m starting to feel
like a bit of a gambler, you know, and youstart gambling with your time, right? And
(17:11):
the chips that are on the table are your sunkcosts, because you've already put a few years
in, but now you feel that you have to geta return for those years you've already invested
in China. And I think this is a critical pointthat people don't talk about enough. This
idea that “OK, I've been here 10 years,I need to walk away a multi-millionaire and
never have to work again”. Right? Or “Ineed to walk away with a really, really cool
(17:34):
tattoo”. Or, you know, or “I need to knowhow to kung fu people”. So that's definitely,
that's a plaguing thought at the back of mymind, like, am I staying here now only because
I feel like I should have walked away withmore? Because you know, you go back home,
and you’re like “Yeah, I've been in Chinafor 10 years.” They’re like “Oh, you
speak Chinese?”, “Yeah I speak Chinese”,“That’s amazing, you can do anything.
(17:55):
You can do anything”. “Well… OK, giveme some ideas. What should I have done?”
So…OF: Yeah, whenever someone says that to me,
I say “The only thing I can do is displaymy stupidity in a different language.” Of
course, I'm joking, because it opens a windowto the culture, which otherwise you certainly
couldn't get.SM: Yes.
I think what you've done, especially when you left China to come back, I think that
(18:19):
was a good move.SM: But it really depends on what you were
then looking to do. If I wanted to stay anemployee and go in that route, then perhaps
it was a good call. But if I want to comeback and be an entrepreneur, then I would
say it was a complete waste of time, and youshould stay here, and learn to roll with the
punches that China throws, and to adapt tothis incredibly fast moving market, right?
(18:42):
Because if you leave for too long, you'lllose your touch.
Well I think the key take-home is just follow your passion. For me, the most interesting
people, are people who I meet in their 30sand 40s who are still saying “Well, I don't
know what I'm going to do in the future”.Especially now, you know, when careers aren't
as linear as they used to be.SM: Mmm.
You know, I think China is just playing into that global trend as well. And again,
(19:06):
as you say, the Chinese element, yes, it'sa good baseline, but, you know, you have to
have something on top. And I think I've seenthat as well with Chinese people in China,
who used to get away with a lot just by speakingEnglish…
SM (19:17):
It’s true. OF
come here and just be wowed by their Englishand hire them, and then realise actually,
the person who spoke less good English actuallyis a better employee. And that is now also
changing on the other side. So I think whatyou say is a good lesson for people who want
to come to China and make their career, butalso Chinese people who are going overseas
(19:39):
too.SM: And both need to buy a good lamp.
OF (19:42):
Yes, exactly. And the lamp has been on the whole time, making our sound studio all
the more comfortable and cosy. So thanks verymuch, and it's a good throughway to talk about
the 2nd Part of our conversation.
[Part 2]OF: Question Number 1. What is your favourite
China-related fact?SM: There are more English speakers in China
(20:03):
than there are in the United States.OF: Oh wow.
SM (20:05):
Yeah, it's a good reminder of the diligence and the approach to education here. And also
a reflection of China's scale.OF: Very good. Number 2, do you have a favourite
word or phrase in Chinese?SM: Yeah, 可遇而不可求 [Kěyù ér bùkě
qiú]. I think it's because as soon as I learnedit, it came up a lot, I wanted to use it a
(20:26):
lot, and even with expats. So what it meansis, ‘this is something that can be encountered,
but not be sought after, or chased’. Sothis is something you're just gonna have to
encounter in life, and not try to seek it.And when I first learned, I was like “Ah
OK, there’s an English equivalent to this”.But then I realised, when I tried to translate
it, there isn’t. And it's such a beautifulconcept.
OF (20:45):
Does that speak to a certain fatalism that you find here, and not in the West?
SM (20:50):
I don't know. OF
within China?SM: Hong Kong.
OF (20:57):
Oh nice. SM
Simon’s giving me a wry smile. So yeah, I can just visualise the parties you've had
in Hong Kong. Because that’s what Hong Kong’sfamous for.
SM (21:05):
Knowing nods, yeah. OF
miss the most, and what would you miss theleast?
So the most would be the optimism. My wife is French, I've got Italian family, and
I go back expecting to love it immediately,and I look around and everyone is just so
grumpy and negative. And I immediately missthe Chinese optimism. What would I not miss,
(21:32):
oh the internet, man. The Internet I get sofrustrated, yeah. The few grey hairs that
I have are solely because of the internetnot working.
OF (21:43):
Is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
SM (21:47):
Everything should mystify you about life in China. You know, there are guys who are
here after like six months to a year and theyknow everything about China.
OF (21:57):
Oh, yeah. SM
2-3 years onwards, and suddenly things areconfusing. Five years on, you've got no idea
what's going on at any one point in time.OF: Where's your favourite place to eat, drink,
or hang out?SM: Um, Alimentari, yeah.
Nice. Just for anyone who doesn't know Shanghai, this is… Is it Italian? I guess
it’s Italian.SM: Yes, it is.
(22:18):
Right. And it’s like a delicatessen, but it spills out onto the street and you
can eat all kinds of cheese and hams and salamis.SM: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
What has been the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
SM (22:31):
Apart from the lamp? OF
That's the best. My bicycle. Yeah. OF
your favourite WeChat sticker?SM: How does one describe a WeChat sticker?
So it's not creepy, but anything with kidsin it. They're just so real. Right? So kids
(22:52):
doing a dance, kids doing fist pumps. I'mall for it. I go authenticity, unbridled passion.
I've got three in my mind that I'll have tothink about. I might let you choose. I couldn't
choose amongst them.OF: OK good. What is your go-to song to sing
at KTV?SM: Probably The Bee Gees. I can only really
(23:16):
sing falsetto.OF: Brilliant.
So, what is it… “You can tell by the way I use my walk, I’m a woman’s man,
no time…” What is it? What is it?OF: Er… ‘Stayin' Alive’.
‘Stayin' Alive’! Sorry. I just screamed there, I just got so excited. So you can see,
it just comes out.OF: Wow.
Yeah, there you go. OF
(23:36):
end on this question after that answer - whatother China-related media or sources of information
do you rely on?SM: Yeah. China Tech Talk, China Tech Investor.
Those guys are awesome. TechNode, you're awesome.OF: Very nice. Well, thank you so much, Simon.
That's been great. And as you know, the finalpart of this interview is to ask you, if you
(23:56):
had someone who you'd nominate for me as themost interesting person you know in China
at this point, is there one person's namethat springs to mind?
Many, but one person I'd like to see go through this is Alex Duncan.
OF (24:12):
Alex. SM
OK. Well, hopefully we'll have him on the next series. And the meantime, thank you
so much, Simon.SM: Awesome. Thank you.
[Outro]OF: So the first thing to talk about is Friendship
Stores or 友谊商店 [yǒuyì shāngdiàn].Simon mentioned that this is where he bought
his object, the lamp, in Beijing. These arestate-run stores which initially only sold
(24:34):
to foreigners, but as China has opened upover the last 30 years, most of these stores
have closed down. And the ones that do stillexist have no restrictions about who they
can sell to. Simon also mentioned the PSB,in the context of the one time he overstayed
his visa. This is short for the Public SecurityBureau, it's the local government office which
deals with residence registration, and the户口 [hùkǒu]. For more on the 户口 [hùkǒu],
(24:57):
listen to Episode 09 with Noah Sheldon, thefilmmaker who made documentaries on workplaces
in China.
There are photos of all this, that I've postedon social media, including a couple from Simon's
motorbiking days in Beijing, and a very revealingone from his party days in Hong Kong. Simon
is the one in the white outfit, in case youdon't recognise him. You can see what 炒鸡蛋西红柿
(25:17):
[chǎojīdàn xīhóngshì] looks like, it'sthe dish of eggs and tomatoes that Simon lived
off in the factory in Ningbo. And I've alsoposted some details of the 杭州 [Hángzhōu]
Bay Bridge, which nowadays links 宁波 [Níngbō]and Shanghai. And there's a bunch of other
photos too.
And that's it for the decade. If you wantto give me a Christmas present this year,
then please do me a big favour and share thepodcast with your friends. And if you're feeling
(25:39):
especially kind, then please go to Apple Podcastsand leave a comment or a rating. It really
does help the project along.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extra editingsupport from Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny
Newell, and China support from Alston Gong.Thank you truly for all your support since
August, I do really mean that. And if youcelebrate Christmas, then Merry Christmas
to you. And I'll see you back in mid-January.
[Trailer]SM: I couldn't turn left. I've alienated one
of my hands. And, you know, I won't go anyfurther there.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I'm your host Oscar Fuchs.
Thanks for all the comments on last week'sepisode with Nini. Although I did get a little
(00:24):
bit teased for mentioning ‘Linkin Park’and ‘punk’ in the same breath. Yep, that
was dumb. If you were inspired to try yourhand at producing your own screenprint artwork,
then the good news is that we've booked Nini’sstudio in Shanghai for the afternoon of Saturday
February 29th. There'll be a handful of guestsfrom Season 01, and there's room for around
10 listeners to also join. I'll be postingmore details on social media, so if you're
(00:48):
interested, please watch out for that in thenew year. We’re on @mosaicofchina_ on Instagram
and @mosaicofchina on Facebook, or add meon my WeChat ID: mosaicofchina, and I'll add
you to the group there.
And so today's episode will be the last oneof 2019. In fact, it's the last one of the
decade, I guess. So it's quite fitting thatthe episode being released today is the one
(01:08):
with Simon Manetti. As you’re listeningto Simon reflect on his last ten years of
choices and chances in China, take a momentto think about the forces that brought you
to where you are today. You might reflecton your decade as a series of rational, linear
decisions. Well, congratulations to you. Personally,I relate more to someone like Simon: definitely
(01:28):
some rational decision-making, but a few irrationalones thrown in, and otherwise a combination
of luck, fate and sheer opportunism.
A few quick notes about Simon story. At onepoint he uses the phrase ‘QC’, this means
‘Quality Control’. He mentions 炒鸡蛋西红柿[chǎojīdàn xīhóngshì], this is a standard
Chinese dish of eggs and tomatoes. And healso mentions ordering 外卖 [wàimài],
(01:53):
this just means ordering takeout food. Andfinally there was an issue with my mic during
this recording, but Simon's was fine, whichis lucky because he is the one with the great
voice.
[Part 1]OF: Well, thank you Simon. I'm here with Simon
Manetti. You’re a former lawyer, and nowyou're a guru of China retail tech.
SM (02:13):
Totally. OF
we start straightaway with your object. So,as people who are listening will know, I ask
people to bring in one object that in someway encapsulates your life in China. So talk
me through what you've bought today.SM: Yes, so on most university campuses in
China - at least those that welcomed foreigners- there is a Friendship Store. And when I
(02:35):
first came to China in 2006, I was studyingin BLCU in Beijing, and I bought my first
China lamp, or what turned out to be my onlyChina lamp. So to dispel the myth that everything
in China is poorly made, this little beautyhas been shining light on my endeavours for
(03:01):
13 years.OF: Oh wow.
And it has travelled with me on 4-5 city and international moves, and somehow has been
something that I've just not been able tolet go of.
OF (03:13):
Well, it's a nice link into your story, actually. So why don't you give us a little
summary of where you've moved with this lamp?SM: Yeah, sure. So I first came to China in
2006. This is immediately post-uni, just todate myself. Possibly the best year of my
life, at least until I met my wife.OF: Well said.
SM (03:34):
And it was a very different China, because China wasn't yet a thing…
OF (03:38):
Right. SM
So, much more adventurous..? SM
driven, right? It wasn't at that stage aboutbetter job prospects or anything. It actually
kind of blew up. At least for me, I was probablyjust ignorant, but perhaps they all knew.
They were mostly American, and they seem tobe a little more on point on these sorts of
things. The backwater Ozzy just sort of strolledout with his cork hat, sort of saying “This
(04:01):
place is alright.” But what I think bondedus further was the fact that we were able
to get motorbikes. You bought your licenceupon the purchase of the motorbike. I went
for the biggest motorbike I could see, thinkingthat would be the safest. And I'll never forget
riding straight off the curb, across the road,and into the other curb, and falling over.
(04:25):
And kind of shyly, embarrassed, emasculated,turning around, laughing. Got up, manoeuvred
my bike to run straight down the road, andre-commenced the journey. And tried to take
a left again, at this set of lights - andthis time, there was quite decent traffic
- straight down.OF: Oh man.
SM (04:45):
Straight down. So we took many highway journeys out of Beijing, used it as an escape
to get up around a place called 密云 [Mìyún].And for a good six months, I couldn't turn
left. If we had to take a left turn, I neededto be given a bit of notice, because I was
going to have to do a right turn little loop-de-loopin order to be able to join everybody. I've
(05:09):
alienated one of my hands. And, you know,I won't go any further there. Next question.
OF (05:17):
Have you since gained the use of your left hand, can you now turn left?
SM (05:21):
Um, I can turn left. I haven't ridden a motorbike for a while, I put those days
behind me. But I ride my bicycle a lot. Andyeah, I can turn left, yeah. But yeah, so
that was my memory of Beijing. I then dida bit of a ‘walkabout’ soul-searching
voyage around Europe and Australia, thinkingI needed a gap year after really just having
(05:44):
had a gap year. And then I landed back inChina, in 宁波 [Níngbō]. It was interesting.
It was not by choice, I was following a ladyat the time, who was at the Nottingham University.
So I moved straight into a Western compound.And I think we chose it primarily because
(06:08):
it was directly opposite the Metro. And apartfrom being there - or on my way to the factory
that I ended up working in - I can't say Isaw much of 宁波 [Níngbō], which is, yeah,
it's a shame. It was a manufacturing companythat specialised in ultra high-end silk bedding.
(06:32):
So with my nine months of 普通话 [Pǔtōnghuà],it somehow qualified me to be an intermediary
between the production staff and fieldingall the sales enquiries from the U.S. Sean
Connery and Catherine Zeta Jones were amongstour clients. And then I was responsible for
checking the order, and then most importantly,doing the QC. And I felt like such a ****, because
(06:59):
I would come in and tell these guys who’vebeen doing this all their lives… you know
those little arrows that you put on contracts,to show where someone has to sign?
OF (07:09):
Yeah. SM
and sticking them on this beautiful silk,just because I saw, like, something that I
thought might have been a little thread, ora blemish, and said “Sorry Mr. Wang, we're
gonna have to see to that”. And so I’dwalk out. And I felt as soon as I walked out,
everyone'd be rolling their eyes, and justgoing, like “This **** has no idea what
(07:32):
he's doing”. And it was absolutely true,and totally warranted. But the other aspect
of that experience that was telling, was thatI wasn't forward-thinking enough each day
to pack my own lunch. Everyone else broughttheir own food, and I went to the only ‘restaurant’
- and air quotes don't really work on podcasts,but that's what I'm doing - which was a tin
(07:58):
shed with a gas blower and an open fridgewhere you could choose what food you wanted.
And I just got the 炒鸡蛋西红柿 [chǎojīdànxīhóngshì] every day. And I never got sick
of it, to be honest, I have been able to eatit since. It was 6 RMB, I'll never forget
that, 6 RMB every day. But it was also seen,I was seen as, like, this VIP **** who would
(08:23):
go and eat at the restaurant as opposed tobeing with the people. And if I could go back,
I would. I think I missed out on so many lessonsby not being in the staff canteen, and being
with the people. So that was 宁波 [Níngbō],but I did jump to the the production experience.
(08:43):
But… and I’m basically here just to flushout everything that I regret. It’s kind
of cathartic, I hope that's OK, Oscar, becausethis is a cathartic experience.
Oh yeah. I mean, you’ve said that you've been a **** about three times…
SM (08:53):
Look, it needs to get out of me. I'm not proud of this - and no-one should be - but
when I first got to 宁波 [Níngbō], I actuallydidn't find the production job immediately.
I found a job to teach - to facilitate - akindergarten. Because everyone knows what
it's like, right? You need to get that visalocked in. And they were absolutely lovely,
(09:16):
as you'd imagine people who run a kindergartento be. Though, the principal was this ex-army
dude, chain-smoking, crew-cut, the works.And on my first day, after they've just given
me this wonderful welcoming tour, everyone'ssuper excited to have me there, they sit me
down at a desk much like this one. And I tookabout three minutes to realise that this is
(09:42):
absolutely not for me. So I stood up; I startedwalking down the stairs; I knew I'd have to
get past the guy at the front door, so I didthe classic, picked up my phone, nodded to
him, started talking like I was ordering 外卖[wàimài]; got out the front door; and just
bolted.OF: Oh, wow,
Yeah. And never, ever looked back. I didn't think it through - which may be a common theme
(10:09):
today - but my visa was in processing. I hadn'treceived it yet. So I then stressed for the
next week that the former Army guy would bethere with his buddies, waiting for me at
the doors - or behind the bushes - of thevisa collection point. And when I got there
and got my visa, I was so relieved that Ididn't even think to check any of the details.
(10:35):
Fast forward three weeks, I'm in Shanghaihaving a jolly, thinking I'm the king, and
I'm trying to get into a youth hostel. Andthey're like “No, sorry, your visa expired
three days ago”.OF: Oh.
So that's where I also got my first and only visa warning. Out to the PSB. And always
check, people (10:56):
If you **** over an employer while they are getting your visa, they may
not cancel it, but they may adjust the termof that visa. That is China **** 101.
OF (11:11):
I mean, I'd like to feel sorry for you. But I think that was probably the just desserts,
right? SM (11:17):
Yeah, yeah. OF
experience. And this is part of the reasonI wanted to speak to you on this podcast,
because you've had three or four differentrebirths in China. So what was your next Renaissance?
SM (11:32):
Hmm. So 宁波 [Níngbō] then Shanghai. Right, so this was Shanghai Chapter 1. And
this was prior to the road - or the bridge- that now spans the Bay of 杭州 [Hángzhōu],
but at that time we were spending almost everyweekend on the train - via 杭州 [Hángzhōu]
- to get to Shanghai. I think everyone whowas part of that were like “Yeah, we have
(11:54):
to end up here, as quickly as possible”.So then I started working for a branding agency.
And that was 18 months to two years of mylife. We called ourselves ‘halfpats’ then
- I think even that term was too grandiose- we were locally-hired, entry-level expats
(12:19):
who are coming in and trying to make a career.And what I noticed was that I was going to
have a very hard slog. So that's what ledme to think “OK, I need hard skills”.
So, you know, my interest led me to law, whichis what had me cross paths with the person
that put us in touch.OF: That was how we first met, through Nestor,
right?SM: Yes, exactly. So Nestor was running a
(12:42):
business that was facilitating foreign investorsin China, helping them set up with it, their
WFOEs, and overcome all the different issuesthat arise in that process.
OF (12:51):
And I should just jump in and explain that WFOE, for people who don't know, is a
Wholly Foreign-Owned Enterprise, right?SM: Hmm. So that was a really, really interesting
time. Snd confirmed my interest in going inthat direction, in sort of a commercial corporate
law direction. So that's when I ping-pong’edbetween London, Hong Kong, and London for
(13:14):
the next five years, as I got my trainingcontract. I went to Hong Kong, landed there,
got to the firm, I didn't really think itthrough - again, we're returning to that theme
- but I got to them, I said “Look, I'd liketo transfer my training contract, it's in
the UK at the moment, can I?” And they said“No”. And I said “OK, well I'm already
(13:38):
here and I'm having a great time, can I juststay on and paralegal?” And they let me,
and that was wonderful. Still, a lot of mybest mates in the world are there. But because
I had to return to London to formalise mylegal path, I did so. But even while there,
(13:59):
I think I realised that it's very easy tolose yourself in the rat race. And I did,
I was actually really enjoying it. But thenone day out of the blue, I had a mate of a
mate ask me if I wanted to open up a businessin a field that I had absolutely no interest
(14:20):
or experience in.OF: Was it was it beds and mattresses again?
SM (14:24):
It wasn't beds and mattresses again, it was in shopper marketing.
OF (14:28):
Hmm. SM
that it was going to be in China, and it wasthe chance to open up a business here. And
so within a few months, I was sort of flungin as the sole man on the ground in Shanghai.
And this is the chapter that I'm in now. Sothat was five years ago. For anyone wondering,
(14:53):
I've since run that business into the ground.It turns out that you shouldn't manage a business
you don't understand at all. Yeah.OF: Oh right..! I’m glad that you are able
to share this wisdom with us.SM: Yeah, yeah. And maybe we can just edit
everything before that, because that's allpeople really need to know.
Yeah. There are many people who I think have a similar story. You kept saying that
(15:17):
the through line was not thinking things through.SM: Hmm.
But what I would call it is ‘a sense of adventure’, and a tenacity, and also
a humility to do things where maybe therewasn't a direct progression, it was more of
a sideways move, but something where it opensup your extra options. You know, you've said
that there are things that you do regret,and I can obviously see why. But look at you
(15:41):
now, you know.SM: Hmm.
I would say you're in a place where you can look back and say “Well, it all happened
for a reason”. Do you see any advice thatyou would give, particularly? Or has it all
been just ‘going with the flow'?SM: I would say, follow your heart, follow
your interests, and you will find these disparatepoints will be threaded together somehow.
(16:02):
That's one point. I think the other thingis you need to have some sort of common thread
that’s binding your experiences. And forme, there's a fascination with China, and
being in China, that has to drive you forwardin whatever you do. If you no longer want
to be here, I don't have any advice for you.I'm on the other side. And I don't know why.
(16:23):
A lot of people ask me why. It's kind of likewhen a partner says “Why do you love me?”
And it’s… “I don’t know…. You'rehot…? You make me laugh…?” I don't know
what the equivalent is for China. I thinkthat it’s, I'm always surprised. And I guess
it's kind of like a drug, you just get addictedto the optimism and the growth and the idea
(16:49):
that, you know, things are going to get better.Here, and in your life. It's infectious. But
I've spoken to some mates who are in my positionnow about this, And I’m starting to feel
like a bit of a gambler, you know, and youstart gambling with your time, right? And
(17:11):
the chips that are on the table are your sunkcosts, because you've already put a few years
in, but now you feel that you have to geta return for those years you've already invested
in China. And I think this is a critical pointthat people don't talk about enough. This
idea that “OK, I've been here 10 years,I need to walk away a multi-millionaire and
never have to work again”. Right? Or “Ineed to walk away with a really, really cool
(17:34):
tattoo”. Or, you know, or “I need to knowhow to kung fu people”. So that's definitely,
that's a plaguing thought at the back of mymind, like, am I staying here now only because
I feel like I should have walked away withmore? Because you know, you go back home,
and you’re like “Yeah, I've been in Chinafor 10 years.” They’re like “Oh, you
speak Chinese?”, “Yeah I speak Chinese”,“That’s amazing, you can do anything.
(17:55):
You can do anything”. “Well… OK, giveme some ideas. What should I have done?”
So…OF: Yeah, whenever someone says that to me,
I say “The only thing I can do is displaymy stupidity in a different language.” Of
course, I'm joking, because it opens a windowto the culture, which otherwise you certainly
couldn't get.SM: Yes.
I think what you've done, especially when you left China to come back, I think that
(18:19):
was a good move.SM: But it really depends on what you were
then looking to do. If I wanted to stay anemployee and go in that route, then perhaps
it was a good call. But if I want to comeback and be an entrepreneur, then I would
say it was a complete waste of time, and youshould stay here, and learn to roll with the
punches that China throws, and to adapt tothis incredibly fast moving market, right?
(18:42):
Because if you leave for too long, you'lllose your touch.
Well I think the key take-home is just follow your passion. For me, the most interesting
people, are people who I meet in their 30sand 40s who are still saying “Well, I don't
know what I'm going to do in the future”.Especially now, you know, when careers aren't
as linear as they used to be.SM: Mmm.
You know, I think China is just playing into that global trend as well. And again,
(19:06):
as you say, the Chinese element, yes, it'sa good baseline, but, you know, you have to
have something on top. And I think I've seenthat as well with Chinese people in China,
who used to get away with a lot just by speakingEnglish…
SM (19:17):
It’s true. OF
come here and just be wowed by their Englishand hire them, and then realise actually,
the person who spoke less good English actuallyis a better employee. And that is now also
changing on the other side. So I think whatyou say is a good lesson for people who want
to come to China and make their career, butalso Chinese people who are going overseas
(19:39):
too.SM: And both need to buy a good lamp.
OF (19:42):
Yes, exactly. And the lamp has been on the whole time, making our sound studio all
the more comfortable and cosy. So thanks verymuch, and it's a good throughway to talk about
the 2nd Part of our conversation.
[Part 2]OF: Question Number 1. What is your favourite
China-related fact?SM: There are more English speakers in China
(20:03):
than there are in the United States.OF: Oh wow.
SM (20:05):
Yeah, it's a good reminder of the diligence and the approach to education here. And also
a reflection of China's scale.OF: Very good. Number 2, do you have a favourite
word or phrase in Chinese?SM: Yeah, 可遇而不可求 [Kěyù ér bùkě
qiú]. I think it's because as soon as I learnedit, it came up a lot, I wanted to use it a
(20:26):
lot, and even with expats. So what it meansis, ‘this is something that can be encountered,
but not be sought after, or chased’. Sothis is something you're just gonna have to
encounter in life, and not try to seek it.And when I first learned, I was like “Ah
OK, there’s an English equivalent to this”.But then I realised, when I tried to translate
it, there isn’t. And it's such a beautifulconcept.
OF (20:45):
Does that speak to a certain fatalism that you find here, and not in the West?
SM (20:50):
I don't know. OF
within China?SM: Hong Kong.
OF (20:57):
Oh nice. SM
Simon’s giving me a wry smile. So yeah, I can just visualise the parties you've had
in Hong Kong. Because that’s what Hong Kong’sfamous for.
SM (21:05):
Knowing nods, yeah. OF
miss the most, and what would you miss theleast?
So the most would be the optimism. My wife is French, I've got Italian family, and
I go back expecting to love it immediately,and I look around and everyone is just so
grumpy and negative. And I immediately missthe Chinese optimism. What would I not miss,
(21:32):
oh the internet, man. The Internet I get sofrustrated, yeah. The few grey hairs that
I have are solely because of the internetnot working.
OF (21:43):
Is there anything that still mystifies you about life in China?
SM (21:47):
Everything should mystify you about life in China. You know, there are guys who are
here after like six months to a year and theyknow everything about China.
OF (21:57):
Oh, yeah. SM
2-3 years onwards, and suddenly things areconfusing. Five years on, you've got no idea
what's going on at any one point in time.OF: Where's your favourite place to eat, drink,
or hang out?SM: Um, Alimentari, yeah.
Nice. Just for anyone who doesn't know Shanghai, this is… Is it Italian? I guess
it’s Italian.SM: Yes, it is.
(22:18):
Right. And it’s like a delicatessen, but it spills out onto the street and you
can eat all kinds of cheese and hams and salamis.SM: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
What has been the best or worst purchase you've made in China?
SM (22:31):
Apart from the lamp? OF
That's the best. My bicycle. Yeah. OF
your favourite WeChat sticker?SM: How does one describe a WeChat sticker?
So it's not creepy, but anything with kidsin it. They're just so real. Right? So kids
(22:52):
doing a dance, kids doing fist pumps. I'mall for it. I go authenticity, unbridled passion.
I've got three in my mind that I'll have tothink about. I might let you choose. I couldn't
choose amongst them.OF: OK good. What is your go-to song to sing
at KTV?SM: Probably The Bee Gees. I can only really
(23:16):
sing falsetto.OF: Brilliant.
So, what is it… “You can tell by the way I use my walk, I’m a woman’s man,
no time…” What is it? What is it?OF: Er… ‘Stayin' Alive’.
‘Stayin' Alive’! Sorry. I just screamed there, I just got so excited. So you can see,
it just comes out.OF: Wow.
Yeah, there you go. OF
(23:36):
end on this question after that answer - whatother China-related media or sources of information
do you rely on?SM: Yeah. China Tech Talk, China Tech Investor.
Those guys are awesome. TechNode, you're awesome.OF: Very nice. Well, thank you so much, Simon.
That's been great. And as you know, the finalpart of this interview is to ask you, if you
(23:56):
had someone who you'd nominate for me as themost interesting person you know in China
at this point, is there one person's namethat springs to mind?
Many, but one person I'd like to see go through this is Alex Duncan.
OF (24:12):
Alex. SM
OK. Well, hopefully we'll have him on the next series. And the meantime, thank you
so much, Simon.SM: Awesome. Thank you.
[Outro]OF: So the first thing to talk about is Friendship
Stores or 友谊商店 [yǒuyì shāngdiàn].Simon mentioned that this is where he bought
his object, the lamp, in Beijing. These arestate-run stores which initially only sold
(24:34):
to foreigners, but as China has opened upover the last 30 years, most of these stores
have closed down. And the ones that do stillexist have no restrictions about who they
can sell to. Simon also mentioned the PSB,in the context of the one time he overstayed
his visa. This is short for the Public SecurityBureau, it's the local government office which
deals with residence registration, and the户口 [hùkǒu]. For more on the 户口 [hùkǒu],
(24:57):
listen to Episode 09 with Noah Sheldon, thefilmmaker who made documentaries on workplaces
in China.
There are photos of all this, that I've postedon social media, including a couple from Simon's
motorbiking days in Beijing, and a very revealingone from his party days in Hong Kong. Simon
is the one in the white outfit, in case youdon't recognise him. You can see what 炒鸡蛋西红柿
(25:17):
[chǎojīdàn xīhóngshì] looks like, it'sthe dish of eggs and tomatoes that Simon lived
off in the factory in Ningbo. And I've alsoposted some details of the 杭州 [Hángzhōu]
Bay Bridge, which nowadays links 宁波 [Níngbō]and Shanghai. And there's a bunch of other
photos too.
And that's it for the decade. If you wantto give me a Christmas present this year,
then please do me a big favour and share thepodcast with your friends. And if you're feeling
(25:39):
especially kind, then please go to Apple Podcastsand leave a comment or a rating. It really
does help the project along.
Mosaic of China is me Oscar Fuchs, extra editingsupport from Milo de Prieto, artwork by Denny
Newell, and China support from Alston Gong.Thank you truly for all your support since
August, I do really mean that. And if youcelebrate Christmas, then Merry Christmas
to you. And I'll see you back in mid-January.
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