January 11, 2021 • 34 mins
The art of drag, with its emphasis on exaggerated costumes and makeup, has gained mainstream popularity around the world, particularly over the last decade. And China is no exception. While drag in the West can trace its roots from Elizabethan England up to the underground queer scene of New York, drag in East Asia draws its own lineage from the Beijing Opera.
As one of the more prominent members of the drag queen community in Shanghai, Cocosanti joins this week’s episode of Mosaic of China to discuss the meaning of drag, her own personal journey as an artist, and the way in which drag queens can teach us all that… it’s OK to be a little weird.
The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Sebastien Denes from Season 01 Episode 11. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-11-sebastien-denes).
Chapters
00:00 - Trailer & Intro
00:45 - Part 1
19:54 - Part 2
27:26 - Outro
30:42 - Catch-Up Interview
Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-05-cocosanti.
Join the community on Instagram (https://instagram.com/oscology), LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/mosaicofchina), Facebook (https://facebook.com/mosaicofchina) or WeChat (https://mosaicofchina.com/wechat).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]C: OK,
are you ready for this?OF: I am. Oh my God.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today’s episode features another guest whowasn’t introduced through someone in Season 01,
(00:24):
but was someone I was very happy to bring intothe project. It’s the drag artist and performer,
Cocosanti. It’s quite a long episodetoday, so I won’t say anything more,
other than to mention that there’s alsoan update interview with Sebastien Denes,
the Diversity and Inclusion advocate from Episode11 of Season 01, right at the end of today’s show.
(00:45):
[Part 1]OF:
Thank you, Coco.C: Oh, hey, thanks. I'm a huge
fan of your podcast.OF: Ah, beautiful.
Coco, so let me mention your real name justonce at the start. So your real name is
Jiovani del Toro, right?C: That is correct. No
relation to Guillermo del Toro.OF: And ‘Jiovani’ is Italian and ‘del
(01:07):
Toro’ is Spanish. Is that right?C: Er, yes.
OF (01:09):
That’s a weird mix. Come on, explain. C
Like, my brothers are Kenneth, Christopherand Steven. And I am Jiovani with a ‘J’.
Like, I'm not even the last child. Steven’s thelast year. I don't know where this came from.
My mom was like “Oh, this isprobably gonna be my last kid,
let’s go crazy with it. And then Steven came.”OF: Well, before we go into this, let's see your
(01:34):
object. So of course, I asked everyone to bringin one object that in some way depicts their life
in China. So what did you bring?C: OK, are you ready for this?
I am. C
Oh my god. C
actually show this on your WeChat groups. Kevinis one of my first props that I ever bought when I
(01:57):
started drag in 2017. And that was when I lived in无锡 [Wúxī]. Kevin is a 20-centimetre dildo. It's a
decorative piece, that’s what I like to call him.OF: Well you say decorative,
I can see glitter on it.C: Yeah, he’s really hard to clean.
It's just, he’s… This was a piece that was verymuch worth it. I also brought him to my first
(02:18):
drag show here in Shanghai. And ever since then,even though he doesn't always make an appearance
on stage, he always comes with me. He's justinteresting to look at. But more importantly,
I bought Kevin at a random, like, outdoorssale. He was just chilling on a blanket.
It sticks out like a sore thumb.OF: Yes, like a sore 20-centimetre penis. Let's
(02:43):
talk about what this means to you.C: He's become sort of a good luck charm for me.
And I know it's crude. And it's something that isexotic to many individuals. But he does bring me,
like, a lot of comfort and knowing that I have aprop that I can use if necessary. If people aren't
feeling, like, really lively or anything, youbring out Kevin and Kevin just makes people feel
(03:06):
a little bit happier. Mostly because of the shockfactor, and a lot because it's just a strange
thing you don’t see every day.OF: It's the perfect object
that I could have imagined you bringing.C: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a crude person. Most of
my work is very, like, artistically inclined. Forme. Cocosanti is just like an extension of myself.
(03:29):
You know, she's louder. She's more aggressive.She's very much in your face, but in a loving way.
Mmm. Well, we have skirted around Cocosanti and what you do,
but we haven't said that you are a drag queen.C: Oh my god. Yeah, I'm not good at storytelling.
This is why I'm here. So would you own that title? Would
you say you're a drag performer, a drag queen?C: Yeah, I refer to myself as a drag artist. When
(03:52):
I thought about what kind of performance I wantedto do, I wanted to think about referring to myself
as something that wasn't specifically alignedwith just one concept. That's because mainstream
media has taken a lot of the ideas of what itmeans to be a drag queen. And I am referred to,
a lot, as the bearded drag queen. I mean, I'mnot offended when someone calls me a drag queen.
(04:14):
But like, it’s… I'm not suited to create anillusion, like, you're gonna see me and you're
gonna have questions, but you're not gonna like…OF: Like “Wow, is that really a lady?
C (04:24):
Right. OF
Yeah, mostly it's like “What…? How…? How is this holding up? What… What is keeping this
together?” That's how I describe my drag.OF: And you touched upon something that's
interesting. So there has been apopularisation of the drag art.
But you say that has consequences, it hassome impact on what you do and how you think.
(04:47):
Right. I think that drag as an art form has blown up in the past 10 years. I think,
starting in 2009 with a very popular drag show,there was a boom and a sweeping sensation of,
like, people really wanting to get involved withthe artistry scene, and really see what's involved
(05:07):
with becoming a drag artist. But with that, ofcourse, came a fan base that was a little bit more
ready to critique individuals for their art,and ready to bring down individuals no matter
what they wanted to do.OF: You mean, because of
the setting in this reality TV show,which is designed for conflict, right?
Right, exactly. The idea of this popular drag race television show being, kind of like,
(05:32):
the model that people want to see in public becamea little bit jarring for me, because I grew up in
a city where I've always known drag queens.OF: Right, so that predates the TV show,
in that case.C: Right, I've always seen,
like, the weird and the strange and the aspectof art being portrayed in many different ways.
(05:54):
And so, like, when this box was created,it became harder for individuals to really
just allow them to be themselves, andreally show what they're capable of.
Because I've seen some incredible dragperformances, and then when I came to China,
I missed that kind of performance. Because I wasalways seeing one kind of performance, and it was
(06:15):
the moulded concept of what was created by thispopular TV show. There are some phenomenal drag
artists here, who can dance, who can do makeup like I am never gonna accomplish. But I did
miss the aspect of something a little bit weird toit. And so when I started drag here in Shanghai,
(06:37):
I kind of maintained those principles. I reallywanted to be able to have the opportunity to give
the individuals who don't have those opportunities- because they're not an illusion artist, they're
not, you know, female presenting, they're not dragqueens - to really have a moment to shine, because
otherwise they'll be left in the dark. AndI'm still sticking to those principles. I want
(07:02):
everyone who has talent to be able to show it.OF: Right
Not in the confines of, like, one idea. OF
here, sat here on the table, you are purposefullydoing that to get a reaction from your audience.
I'm guessing that's part of your act.C: I don’t… Let's go back for a second.
(07:30):
I am from Boston. Bostonians are very brash, theywill find your weakest point and cut you down for
no reason. I am also.. I refer to myself as a‘Latinx’. It's not very common around the world,
but ‘Latinx’ is a way to non-gender the Spanishlanguage. Romance languages, they love doing that.
OF (07:51):
Just, when you compare with Chinese, which has no gender in many regards,
it’s totally gendered, isn't it?C: Yes. It's ridiculous. But yeah,
I say ‘Latinx’. But like, that aspect ofme growing up - and also being a queer,
little chubby brown boy - I just have a naturalinnate ability to find the flaws in a human being,
(08:15):
and appreciate the flaws. When I find a flaw ina person - like I find flaws in myself all the
time - I poke holes at them, and I laugh atit. Because sometimes it's necessary to just
laugh a little bit at our imperfections.I need you to know your imperfections
(08:35):
are what make you perfect. It is so importantto realise that, because if you do not see that
those little imperfections - or thosebig imperfections - make you stand out,
then you're just gonna kind of swim with thenorm. And it's okay to be a little weird.
Yeah. C
(08:55):
I really want to try and dissect your art. So I have seen you a couple of times - probably three
or four by now, actually - and I love what you do…C: Only three or four? How many performances have
I had?OF:
Uh-oh. Come back, Coco!C: No, I won't be flipping tables today.
What I like to do in my art,is I like to disarm people.
(09:18):
I want you to feel very comfortable when you'rearound me, and when you're around drag artists,
because we are people. And so when peoplecome in, and when they're at a show,
I really want them to feel as comfortable asthey possibly can be, to get them into a place
where they know that they're in a safe space.OF: Absolutely. No, I have to tell you, when I
(09:40):
saw you for the first time, that's exactlywhat you did. You gave me the weirdness.
And you gave me the warmth. And I felt like “Oh,wow. I don't know what that is, but I like it.”
C (09:50):
Yeah, that's alcohol. That’s what that is. OF
immediately impressed. Because I don't know manypeople who can cause that range of emotion at the
same time. Like usually, it's one or the other.Usually for me it's like “What is that?” And I
(10:11):
just allow that question mark to linger, and thatdefines what that is. That was why, ultimately,
I wanted to have you on this show.C: Oh. Well, thank you for having me.
Yeah, no, I really want people to be verycomfortable with just enjoying themselves.
(10:31):
The reality is, is like, those expectations areset first when a lot of people are showing up.
And when you break those expectations,people find a way to kind of adapt. And
when people are coming into a space,and they're adapting to that space,
you want to help them move through those feelings…and, like, how they can find a way to stay in that
(10:55):
space, if that makes sense.OF: It does.
Yeah, like, it's like a potted plant. When a plant starts to grow, you have to be able to move
it into a new pot, and really let it flourish intosomething that it wants to be. So when you enter
the space that I'm hosting, I really want youto be, like “Alright, I'm coming in. I'm coming
to see this show. This show is gonna be great. Iknow what to expect. Maybe I don't know what to
(11:16):
expect. What's that? Is that a drag queen? Is thata drag king? Is that a person? What is this? Oh,
I'm really excited. Oh, now I'm really nervous.Oh my god, they’re asking me to come on stage. Oh
my god, why am I on stage? I'm sweating andshaking”. It's OK. I got you. I'm not just
creating art, you are part of the art as well.OF: Let’s move on. Let’s go to drag in Asia,
(11:41):
because actually it has a completelydifferent cultural background, right?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Drag in East Asia is something that is thousands of years old.
OF (11:52):
Right. C
England - you know, you weren't allowed on stageif you were a woman, because you'd be considered
a prostitute - the same kind of aspect workedin East Asia for hundreds of years. In China, in
particular, we can date back to Beijing Opera. Iwant to say for the record, I hate Beijing Opera,
never in my life have I just hated something so…And I get it, I get it, all right? But my god,
(12:22):
there are sounds in there that my head couldnot fathom. But in the same concept as Western
theatre, women weren't allowed to perform.And so men would dress in as characters for
the female roles. So when we look at modern drag,which was influenced by Western culture - popular
culture, specifically - we can see that in makeupartists who make their money using social media.
(12:48):
Well, tell me about the community of drag performers in Shanghai. Is there
one? Or are you all basically individuals?C: There is a community. There are, like 20,
I think. And it's a good mix of internationalartists and local artists. And it's
wonderful to see them. Like, theyall have their own personalities
(13:09):
and their own concepts. They're my family.OF: Yeah. Are there any that you would name,
like in terms of the style that they bring, whichcan still surprise you. Like, who would you name?
C (13:19):
Oh, there’s so many. OK, I'm gonna name just a few. And these are people that I've worked with,
and people that are really great to seelive, so if you've ever had the opportunity
to see them, please go see them. One individual- is also my roommate - Momeaux The Monarch, she
is from San Diego, California. I'm going to giveyou a read for all of them. Momeaux does solos,
(13:42):
she does not do group work, so don't ever ask herto do a group number. There is Fantasia Valentina,
who is a phenomenal makeup artist, who is fromChina. She is a non-binary artist, but also
was one of the first male-presenting makeupartists in China, and started on social media
(14:06):
platforms, and really grew her platform. And -she’s gonna hate when I say this like this - but
she's like the grandmother of makeup artistsfor, like, especially drag artists. But she has a
massive following in China. People come to see herin a show. She scares me every time she dances,
because I think she's gonna fall. She just hasthis movement that makes it look like she's gonna
(14:27):
tumble at any point, and I’m just like “****,someone's got to catch her.” She also has a new
line of makeup brushes, which I did not get.Fantasia, if you ever listen to this, I would
like to get a free set of makeup brushes. (Also,I'll pay for one to support). Um Miss UniVers!
Miss UniVers is from Russia, very well known inShanghai as a dancer. Does not speak English.
(14:52):
I'm kidding, she speaks English, you just have tolike… When you tell her a joke, you have to know
that her response does not mean she doesn'tfind it funny. It's mostly just her like “Mmm,
I understand”. And it’s like. “OK? Oh,OK!”. Actually when I first met her,
I thought she hated me, and then I just found outit's her face. She's very nice. She's so sweet.
(15:15):
She's one of the performers that Iwork with the most actually, we're
both contracted to work at the same club. Yeah.OF: Well, I have to cut you for time. I'm sure
you would have given me many more names.C: Oh, just one more, just one more.
Just one more name.OF: Go on.
Dorian T. Fisk, one of the reigning drag kings from Shanghai. Dorian does drag king like
I've never seen before. They are a really greatperformer. They use props like there's no one's
(15:40):
business. But also they just look stunning.It's incredible. Yeah. Okay. That's all.
OF (15:45):
Wow. Thank you. I want to go back to your culture. You've mentioned your background in
Boston, you’ve mentioned your Latinx background…So what was this, tell me about your family?
C (15:55):
My mother is born and raised in Boston, she is Cuban and Colombian. My grandfather, mother's
father, is Afro-Latino. And my grandmother is fromColombia. My father is Taíno and Puerto Rican.
Taíno is a Native American.OF: Right.
It’s very much not known. OF
(16:18):
Because if you… Here's the thing. If you know Christopher Columbus, and you think of the
“Indians” - I’m doing quotes - that he firstmet, the Taínos were what history talks about.
OF (16:32):
Uh huh. C
is because the majority of us were wiped out.OF: Right. And then we've touched upon your
artistic background. What can you say abouthow that developed when you were growing up?
C (16:46):
Oh, er, tee-ball is a sport in the USA, where it's a precursor to baseball, where young children
go up to a stick with the ball on it, and youhit the ball, and then you run around the bases.
I **** loathe tee ball. I thought it was the mostuseless… I’m like “What is this teaching you?
Just to hit something on a stick? Like, it'sridiculous”. So while I was in the outfield,
(17:12):
I used to just draw on the field.OF: How funny. C:
Yeah, I just used to draw, like, little designsand things like that. And my mom's like “Well,
he's not liking this, maybe we should just puthim in an art class.” And then I did an art class,
and I was like “OK I like this.” And then fromthere - in schools and after-school programmes and
things like that - I started really just exploringdifferent mediums of art, which was great.
OF (17:33):
So really, it was a synthesis of art and sport right there.
C (17:36):
Oh, it's so funny you should say that. I have something called synaesthesia.
OF (17:41):
Oh right. C
like, a cross between your senses. So for me,I have lexical synaesthesia, which means that
I see colours when I'm looking at some kindof text. So if I'm reading, or if I'm writing,
there's a lot of jarring colours that can popout from the text. Which is why it was a little
(18:04):
bit of an issue for me growing up, because Iwas a very slow reader. I still hate reading.
I could get the work done, it wasn't an issuefor me. But it was kind of a handicap when I was
in school. You know, when the teacher callson you, and they're like “Can you read this
passage for me?” And I was like “I don't want to.”OF: Because when you did so, it would have bright
(18:26):
colours coming out of the text.C: Yeah. Right now, I still have
it. A lot of people grow out of it. But forme it still can be a nuisance because, like,
you'll look at something really quickly, and thenit'll just flash in your face, and that's how
I see it for me. However, I learned growing uphow to use it to my advantage. So I was able to
(18:47):
memorise lines quicker for, like, shows. Math,I could see the way the colours would, kind of,
direct me to the things that I needed to do.So I could remember formulas really easily.
It translates a little bit when I'm readingChinese, because I started learning Chinese when
I was 11. So I use that to, kind of like, balancebetween the pictures of the 汉子 [hànzi] and, like,
(19:11):
the 拼音 [pīnyīn]. And I was like “Oh, I canremember these together, if I just remember
the colour coordination”. It still is annoying.And that's why I, kind of, listen to podcasts…
Thank you! C
I still love reading, and I love research. Butsynaesthesia has always been there to bother me.
How bizarre! C
(19:31):
Well, maybe that's a good place to end this first section, because you talked about how you
should embrace the things that are perhaps notperfect about you, whatever ‘perfect’ means.
Apologies to everyone who knows thatI've missed out 15 chapters of your life…
C (19:46):
No don’t… You always say “Let's move on to Round 2,” and then people are just like “OK.”
But cue the music for round two! A-ha!OF: Dammit!
[Part 2]OF:
What's your favourite China-related fact?C: Um, I don't have one. Only because,
here's the thing, the facts that I knew aboutChina keep changing. So like, sometimes I'll come
(20:09):
here and I'll be like “Oh, that's an interestingfact". And then I find out a new piece of
information, and I’m like “What the hell?”OF: Yes.
“I learned it a different way. That's not… That doesn't work out at all for me,” So I don't
really have a China-related fact.OF: Oh that's a good one.
Yeah. OF
have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?C: Oh my god. I do. OK, are you ready for
this? 说曹操曹操就到 [Shuō Cáocāo, Cáocāo jiù dào]or 说曹操曹操到 [Shuō Cáocāo, Cáocāo dào], which
(20:33):
means like…OF: Hang on, 曹操 [Cáocāo] is the
famous guy from history.C: Yes.
OF (20:41):
OK. So hang on, 说曹操曹操知道 [Shuō Cáocāo Cáocāo zhīdào]?
C (20:42):
就到 [Jiù dào]. So it's like the Chinese version of saying “Speak of the devil,
the devil will come”.OF: Right.
Right. All right, so it's really great because it's like, it just kind of rolls off the tongue
really fun. And you could always just say like“Oh, 说曹操 [shuō Cáocāo],” like when someone
enters a room and you're like, "Oh, this **** ishere.” That's what you can use. I had a teacher
in Beijing who used it very often. And I was like“Oh, OK, you’re a sassy teacher!” So it was really
(21:05):
bad. But I love that phrase, I don't know why.OF: That's great, thank you. What is
your favourite destination within China?C: My favourite place in China is any place
with a very large window and a coffee shop.Now, the reason being is because, I like going
on a train and going to a random city, finding acoffee shop, and just sitting by the window, doing
(21:31):
my work, and people-watching. That's just what Ienjoy doing. I love doing it in the U.S. as well.
OF (21:37):
I like that. C
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
C (21:43):
Same answer for both. It's a combination of three things Taobao, 美团 [Měituán], and 嘀嘀[Dídí].
Once I go back home to the US, I'm going tobe so sad that I have to start using Amazon,
or I can't order food randomly in the middle ofthe night, without paying a surcharge of like
(22:03):
500元 [Yuán], you know, or getting a taxi forthe price of a cup of coffee. And I get it,
I understand why. But my God, it's soconvenient. And I hate that I've adapted to it
so well.OF: Oh,
this is why it's also the thing you won't miss.C: Oh, it makes me a monster. I’m gonna have to,
(22:23):
like, learn how to be a stable human beingwithout the aid of things that can come to
my doorstep whenever I need it. Yeah.OF: Is there something that still
surprises you about life in China?C: China has grown so fast and so quickly,
and so many cities have developed. But one thingthat will always surprise me is the obstacles
that China puts in the way, that I think it'sjust for like people to get a kick out of.
(22:48):
Like, the only entrance into the Metro is,you have to walk all the way down here.
And we could open this stall up, but we'renot going to do that. They're just minute,
little things that just don’t… it's not necessary.OF: I think it's all the more pronounced because
99% of the things are quite streamlined, arequite organised. And then, why? Why have this
(23:12):
one thing which does not make sense?C: Yes, it's just the little things.
OF (23:16):
Where is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?
C (23:20):
Oh, I am a huge foodie. And I say this with pride, I'm foodie, and I'm fat, and I love it.
That being said, I thoroughly wantto give a shout-out to Charlie’s…
OF (23:30):
Charlie's Burgers, is it? C
times really, really late at night, where I'm justlike "Alright, I need to eat something, because
I'm coming home from work at 4am.” And I don'tmind eating something like 兰州拉面 [Lánzhōu lāmiàn],
but, like, I don't want something heavy and oilyand greasy. And I'm like “Oh, Charlie's is open.
(23:52):
I can just have like a chicken nugget.”OF: What is the best or worst
purchase you've made in China?C: The worst purchase I ever made was
these shoes. And being like a 47/48 in Chinasize, I'm thinking “Oh OK, maybe I can,
you know, find something that will fit,” becauseeveryone has all these really nice shoes.
(24:14):
And I have like, three, from the U.S.Because it’s the only thing I have.
And I bought these shoes, and theywere just… I don't know what they were.
They weren't designed for a human foot. They'relike “Oh, a goat is gonna be wearing this,
it'll be fine.” It was just shaped so off, and itpinched in ways that, like, never pinched before.
And stupid me was like “I'm gonna wear thesefor a show. They’re supposed to hurt like this.
(24:38):
It's fine.” Those things were so,so poorly made, the heel snapped.
Oh, God. C
so angry. I was like “Who is this made for?”OF: What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
C (24:51):
Oh, there's so many. Um… OF
I sent you. Do you see it? So my favourite Corona WeChat sticker is that meme of the dog
on fire. He's just, like, sitting in aburning room being like, “Oh, it's fine.”
Another one is from one of my favourite TV shows,it’s like a little cartoon show, and it's just
(25:13):
like this lumpy space princess. And she'sjust like “You're bad. And I like it.”
OF (25:18):
Oh that’s great. C
use the most is a flipping-the-hair-backkind of sticker. I use that too often,
and it's mostly because I know when I was younger,I used to do that all the time. I'd be like, yep.
And it's the tongue placement too. C
that I make all the time.OF: Oh that’s great.
C (25:39):
That is the sticker that I use the most. OF
I am not a singer. I have no musical bone in my body. I really don't. I don't.
I like musicals, I like Broadway musicals. But Imostly just kind of like, chill at KTV, while my
friends - who are all performance people - sing.But I'm pretty good at Superbase, by Nicki Minaj.
OF (26:03):
OK. C
And finally, what other China-related sources of information do you rely on?
C (26:10):
Oh my god, get ready for this. There is a website called 蛋蛋赞 [Dàndànzàn].
OF (26:14):
Oh right. C
especially if you don't have access to a lot offilm and television online. This website gives you
the access to watch a variety of television showsOF: Oh it’s got a good library, has it?
C (26:29):
Oh it has the best. You'll never have a problem finding
something you want to watch on. 蛋蛋赞 [Dàndànzàn].OF: Wow. OK, you've opened a new door for me.
Oh, please, you have to use it. OF
Oh, thank you, Mr. Fuchs. OF
don't you? If there was anyone in China who yourecommend that I should interview for the next
(26:50):
season of Mosaic of China, who would you refer?C: Yes, there is an individual named Xie Xiao.
He is one of the heads for CinemaQ, whichis a queer film initiative in Shanghai.
I think it would be really fun to havea conversation with him, because he has
great stories. Because he also does work withanother programme called Queer Talks as well.
OF (27:12):
Well, thank you. I look forward to meeting Xie Xiao. And thank you again, Coco.
C (27:16):
Thank you for having me. And please, please, please don't tell anyone about this interview.
[Outro]OF:
So, first things first, if you havebeen questioning whether or not to
subscribe to the premium version of the show,
I hope today’s episode will push you thatmuch closer to making the investment.
(27:39):
It’s just 2 dollars a month, and it gives youa lot more content in each weekly episode.
And just to prove it, here are some excerptsfrom the longer version of today’s interview:
[Clip 1]C: But that's just me being judgy. Like,
I'm gonna always be judgy.OF: That’s your brand.
I know, it's so hard. [Clip 2]
The individuals who started the whole thing were slowly pushed to the back.
(28:02):
[Clip 3]C: I’m smart, China, I am. I have degrees.
[Clip 4]C: To me from my American mind,
I think this is a huge political statement.[Clip 5]
C:“You look like a troll doll.” Well,OK. I guess we're not doing that anymore!
[Clip 6]C: “Hey,
(28:22):
can you send this tomorrow, because Ireally need it”. But I don’t. I never
need it. I just want it.[End of Audio Clips]
One quick correction, Coco and I both misspokewhen saying the name of his referral for Season 3,
which should be pronounced Xie Xiaorather than “Xue” Xiao. Coco also wanted
me to clarify his comment on the BeijingOpera. He’s a fan of its rich tradition,
(28:45):
it’s just that his body simply can’t cope withthe frequency of the sounds that come out of it.
Just search online for any video of BeijingOpera, and you’ll see what he means.
Speaking of online, there are a lot ofphotos to accompany this week’s episode,
I went a bit crazy today,especially with images of Coco,
some of which she gave me herself and othersthat I took from her social media channels.
(29:08):
Many of those were taken at the venue where she- and other drag queens - perform regularly,
which is The Pearl in Shanghai, so go seeher there if you can. And unfortunately,
no, you won’t be able to laugh at her shoes fromnow on. Since recording this episode she told me
that she has found a trusted Taobao seller forbuying heels in her size. Congratulations Coco.
(29:32):
OK, I can hear that I’m switching from ‘he’ to‘she’, whenever my mind switches between Jiovani
and Coco. Whatever! You can see all these imageson Instagram, Facebook and WeChat, just search
for mosaicofchina - all one word - and you’ll getto us. I’ve censored the photo of the object Coco
brought, you’ll have to be a Patreon subscriber tosee Kevin in his full glory. But you can see all
the rest (29:57):
there are the WeChat stickers; there’s an old family photo of Coco with the whole del
Toro family back in Boston; some photos of theother Shanghai Drag Queens that Coco mentioned;
an image that depicts how words look for peoplewith synaesthesia; and so many more, I just don’t
have the time to go through them all here, soplease check them out, I promise it’s worth it.
(30:20):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. Stick around for the shortened
version of my catch-up chat with Sebastien Denesfrom SAP, and I’ll see you again next week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
(30:44):
Sebastien, lovely to see you.Sebastien DENES: Same here.
OF (30:47):
What has been your Coronavirus story? SD
because we are here living ourlife. But on the other side,
with all of our families back in Europe,in Italy, in France, we are struggling
with them as well a little bit, right.OF: Yeah, schizophrenic is the right word.
And also, you're guilty becauseyou're having quite a normal
(31:07):
life compared to your family back in Europe.SD: Yeah. I think we talked a lot about privilege,
last time we talked.OF: Yeah
SD (31:12):
You realise how privileged you are to have this key to travel, which is your passport,
where we could navigate COVID fairly easily.OF: Yes, you had choices.
Exactly. OF
Is your job the same? Is your situation the same?SD: Well, I'm actually in a transition. This is
(31:33):
something we planned for years. And I'm movingout from Sales & Services to Engineering.
OF (31:39):
OK. SD
… Oh, which is where Steve is? SD
Let’s talk about then, Steve, as the example you gave as somebody on the autism spectrum that
you hired here in China?SD: Yep.
Have you noticed that the people like Steve - and other people on the
spectrum - managed this situation differently?SD: Again, it's an opinion, right. So I think they
(31:59):
have this capability to adapt to a less socialenvironment. Nevertheless, the challenge for
us is, how do we keep the link?OF: Mmm.
SD (32:09):
Right? And how do we keep them engaged? Because being in the office
is also helping them engaging, socialising withcolleagues, and eventually customers as well.
And this has been a little bit taken awayfrom them. For example, Steve had a buddy
that was sitting very close to him, and beingthere to help him, and eventually support him,
(32:33):
and vice versa. And, of course, with not beingphysically together, then you need to look for
different communication methods, right. And bythe way, Steve is not alone. We hired a couple
of other employees on the spectrum. We are in theprocess to hire one right now, because we didn't
want COVID to be our excuse not to continue.OF: That’s great. Because it's like a muscle that,
(32:56):
if you don't exercise it,it will start to atrophy.
That’s interesting, because that's the conversation I had yesterday with a few
other people. We were talking about a completelydifferent subject, LGBTQ. It's very easy to be
LGBTQ-friendly during the month of June,because it's the month of LGBTQ. Nevertheless,
it's all those other months that are tough.Because this is where you need to be consistent.
(33:19):
This is where you need to be really inclusive,when nobody's looking, when nobody's watching.
When we met 15 months ago, we were establishinga lot of foundations that we see, today,
holding our entire building of Diversity andInclusion within the company. Many of the actions
(33:39):
that we started, that I started personally,I am very lightly involved, which means…
OF (33:45):
…That it’s been embedded in the culture. SD
of. Not so much of what I've done, but muchmore of the seeds that have been planted,
and the trees that have grown.OF: Well, that's great. And you know,
it's nice to hear that a year on, it'snot just a story, but it's a legacy.
(34:06):
Sebastien, thank you so much. It's been great tocatch up with you again. You actually referred
somebody who, for certain reasons, could notbe part of the next season of the podcast.
But we have a very nice person who could stepin. And so I will include parts of this interview
in that episode. It's still been agreat excuse to catch up with you,
(34:27):
so good luck with the future.SD: Thank you, Oscar.
[Trailer]C: OK,
are you ready for this?OF: I am. Oh my God.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China,
a podcast about people who are making theirmark in China. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
Today’s episode features another guest whowasn’t introduced through someone in Season 01,
(00:24):
but was someone I was very happy to bring intothe project. It’s the drag artist and performer,
Cocosanti. It’s quite a long episodetoday, so I won’t say anything more,
other than to mention that there’s alsoan update interview with Sebastien Denes,
the Diversity and Inclusion advocate from Episode11 of Season 01, right at the end of today’s show.
(00:45):
[Part 1]OF:
Thank you, Coco.C: Oh, hey, thanks. I'm a huge
fan of your podcast.OF: Ah, beautiful.
Coco, so let me mention your real name justonce at the start. So your real name is
Jiovani del Toro, right?C: That is correct. No
relation to Guillermo del Toro.OF: And ‘Jiovani’ is Italian and ‘del
(01:07):
Toro’ is Spanish. Is that right?C: Er, yes.
OF (01:09):
That’s a weird mix. Come on, explain. C
Like, my brothers are Kenneth, Christopherand Steven. And I am Jiovani with a ‘J’.
Like, I'm not even the last child. Steven’s thelast year. I don't know where this came from.
My mom was like “Oh, this isprobably gonna be my last kid,
let’s go crazy with it. And then Steven came.”OF: Well, before we go into this, let's see your
(01:34):
object. So of course, I asked everyone to bringin one object that in some way depicts their life
in China. So what did you bring?C: OK, are you ready for this?
I am. C
Oh my god. C
actually show this on your WeChat groups. Kevinis one of my first props that I ever bought when I
(01:57):
started drag in 2017. And that was when I lived in无锡 [Wúxī]. Kevin is a 20-centimetre dildo. It's a
decorative piece, that’s what I like to call him.OF: Well you say decorative,
I can see glitter on it.C: Yeah, he’s really hard to clean.
It's just, he’s… This was a piece that was verymuch worth it. I also brought him to my first
(02:18):
drag show here in Shanghai. And ever since then,even though he doesn't always make an appearance
on stage, he always comes with me. He's justinteresting to look at. But more importantly,
I bought Kevin at a random, like, outdoorssale. He was just chilling on a blanket.
It sticks out like a sore thumb.OF: Yes, like a sore 20-centimetre penis. Let's
(02:43):
talk about what this means to you.C: He's become sort of a good luck charm for me.
And I know it's crude. And it's something that isexotic to many individuals. But he does bring me,
like, a lot of comfort and knowing that I have aprop that I can use if necessary. If people aren't
feeling, like, really lively or anything, youbring out Kevin and Kevin just makes people feel
(03:06):
a little bit happier. Mostly because of the shockfactor, and a lot because it's just a strange
thing you don’t see every day.OF: It's the perfect object
that I could have imagined you bringing.C: Yeah, I mean, I'm not a crude person. Most of
my work is very, like, artistically inclined. Forme. Cocosanti is just like an extension of myself.
(03:29):
You know, she's louder. She's more aggressive.She's very much in your face, but in a loving way.
Mmm. Well, we have skirted around Cocosanti and what you do,
but we haven't said that you are a drag queen.C: Oh my god. Yeah, I'm not good at storytelling.
This is why I'm here. So would you own that title? Would
you say you're a drag performer, a drag queen?C: Yeah, I refer to myself as a drag artist. When
(03:52):
I thought about what kind of performance I wantedto do, I wanted to think about referring to myself
as something that wasn't specifically alignedwith just one concept. That's because mainstream
media has taken a lot of the ideas of what itmeans to be a drag queen. And I am referred to,
a lot, as the bearded drag queen. I mean, I'mnot offended when someone calls me a drag queen.
(04:14):
But like, it’s… I'm not suited to create anillusion, like, you're gonna see me and you're
gonna have questions, but you're not gonna like…OF: Like “Wow, is that really a lady?
C (04:24):
Right. OF
Yeah, mostly it's like “What…? How…? How is this holding up? What… What is keeping this
together?” That's how I describe my drag.OF: And you touched upon something that's
interesting. So there has been apopularisation of the drag art.
But you say that has consequences, it hassome impact on what you do and how you think.
(04:47):
Right. I think that drag as an art form has blown up in the past 10 years. I think,
starting in 2009 with a very popular drag show,there was a boom and a sweeping sensation of,
like, people really wanting to get involved withthe artistry scene, and really see what's involved
(05:07):
with becoming a drag artist. But with that, ofcourse, came a fan base that was a little bit more
ready to critique individuals for their art,and ready to bring down individuals no matter
what they wanted to do.OF: You mean, because of
the setting in this reality TV show,which is designed for conflict, right?
Right, exactly. The idea of this popular drag race television show being, kind of like,
(05:32):
the model that people want to see in public becamea little bit jarring for me, because I grew up in
a city where I've always known drag queens.OF: Right, so that predates the TV show,
in that case.C: Right, I've always seen,
like, the weird and the strange and the aspectof art being portrayed in many different ways.
(05:54):
And so, like, when this box was created,it became harder for individuals to really
just allow them to be themselves, andreally show what they're capable of.
Because I've seen some incredible dragperformances, and then when I came to China,
I missed that kind of performance. Because I wasalways seeing one kind of performance, and it was
(06:15):
the moulded concept of what was created by thispopular TV show. There are some phenomenal drag
artists here, who can dance, who can do makeup like I am never gonna accomplish. But I did
miss the aspect of something a little bit weird toit. And so when I started drag here in Shanghai,
(06:37):
I kind of maintained those principles. I reallywanted to be able to have the opportunity to give
the individuals who don't have those opportunities- because they're not an illusion artist, they're
not, you know, female presenting, they're not dragqueens - to really have a moment to shine, because
otherwise they'll be left in the dark. AndI'm still sticking to those principles. I want
(07:02):
everyone who has talent to be able to show it.OF: Right
Not in the confines of, like, one idea. OF
here, sat here on the table, you are purposefullydoing that to get a reaction from your audience.
I'm guessing that's part of your act.C: I don’t… Let's go back for a second.
(07:30):
I am from Boston. Bostonians are very brash, theywill find your weakest point and cut you down for
no reason. I am also.. I refer to myself as a‘Latinx’. It's not very common around the world,
but ‘Latinx’ is a way to non-gender the Spanishlanguage. Romance languages, they love doing that.
OF (07:51):
Just, when you compare with Chinese, which has no gender in many regards,
it’s totally gendered, isn't it?C: Yes. It's ridiculous. But yeah,
I say ‘Latinx’. But like, that aspect ofme growing up - and also being a queer,
little chubby brown boy - I just have a naturalinnate ability to find the flaws in a human being,
(08:15):
and appreciate the flaws. When I find a flaw ina person - like I find flaws in myself all the
time - I poke holes at them, and I laugh atit. Because sometimes it's necessary to just
laugh a little bit at our imperfections.I need you to know your imperfections
(08:35):
are what make you perfect. It is so importantto realise that, because if you do not see that
those little imperfections - or thosebig imperfections - make you stand out,
then you're just gonna kind of swim with thenorm. And it's okay to be a little weird.
Yeah. C
(08:55):
I really want to try and dissect your art. So I have seen you a couple of times - probably three
or four by now, actually - and I love what you do…C: Only three or four? How many performances have
I had?OF:
Uh-oh. Come back, Coco!C: No, I won't be flipping tables today.
What I like to do in my art,is I like to disarm people.
(09:18):
I want you to feel very comfortable when you'rearound me, and when you're around drag artists,
because we are people. And so when peoplecome in, and when they're at a show,
I really want them to feel as comfortable asthey possibly can be, to get them into a place
where they know that they're in a safe space.OF: Absolutely. No, I have to tell you, when I
(09:40):
saw you for the first time, that's exactlywhat you did. You gave me the weirdness.
And you gave me the warmth. And I felt like “Oh,wow. I don't know what that is, but I like it.”
C (09:50):
Yeah, that's alcohol. That’s what that is. OF
immediately impressed. Because I don't know manypeople who can cause that range of emotion at the
same time. Like usually, it's one or the other.Usually for me it's like “What is that?” And I
(10:11):
just allow that question mark to linger, and thatdefines what that is. That was why, ultimately,
I wanted to have you on this show.C: Oh. Well, thank you for having me.
Yeah, no, I really want people to be verycomfortable with just enjoying themselves.
(10:31):
The reality is, is like, those expectations areset first when a lot of people are showing up.
And when you break those expectations,people find a way to kind of adapt. And
when people are coming into a space,and they're adapting to that space,
you want to help them move through those feelings…and, like, how they can find a way to stay in that
(10:55):
space, if that makes sense.OF: It does.
Yeah, like, it's like a potted plant. When a plant starts to grow, you have to be able to move
it into a new pot, and really let it flourish intosomething that it wants to be. So when you enter
the space that I'm hosting, I really want youto be, like “Alright, I'm coming in. I'm coming
to see this show. This show is gonna be great. Iknow what to expect. Maybe I don't know what to
(11:16):
expect. What's that? Is that a drag queen? Is thata drag king? Is that a person? What is this? Oh,
I'm really excited. Oh, now I'm really nervous.Oh my god, they’re asking me to come on stage. Oh
my god, why am I on stage? I'm sweating andshaking”. It's OK. I got you. I'm not just
creating art, you are part of the art as well.OF: Let’s move on. Let’s go to drag in Asia,
(11:41):
because actually it has a completelydifferent cultural background, right?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Drag in East Asia is something that is thousands of years old.
OF (11:52):
Right. C
England - you know, you weren't allowed on stageif you were a woman, because you'd be considered
a prostitute - the same kind of aspect workedin East Asia for hundreds of years. In China, in
particular, we can date back to Beijing Opera. Iwant to say for the record, I hate Beijing Opera,
never in my life have I just hated something so…And I get it, I get it, all right? But my god,
(12:22):
there are sounds in there that my head couldnot fathom. But in the same concept as Western
theatre, women weren't allowed to perform.And so men would dress in as characters for
the female roles. So when we look at modern drag,which was influenced by Western culture - popular
culture, specifically - we can see that in makeupartists who make their money using social media.
(12:48):
Well, tell me about the community of drag performers in Shanghai. Is there
one? Or are you all basically individuals?C: There is a community. There are, like 20,
I think. And it's a good mix of internationalartists and local artists. And it's
wonderful to see them. Like, theyall have their own personalities
(13:09):
and their own concepts. They're my family.OF: Yeah. Are there any that you would name,
like in terms of the style that they bring, whichcan still surprise you. Like, who would you name?
C (13:19):
Oh, there’s so many. OK, I'm gonna name just a few. And these are people that I've worked with,
and people that are really great to seelive, so if you've ever had the opportunity
to see them, please go see them. One individual- is also my roommate - Momeaux The Monarch, she
is from San Diego, California. I'm going to giveyou a read for all of them. Momeaux does solos,
(13:42):
she does not do group work, so don't ever ask herto do a group number. There is Fantasia Valentina,
who is a phenomenal makeup artist, who is fromChina. She is a non-binary artist, but also
was one of the first male-presenting makeupartists in China, and started on social media
(14:06):
platforms, and really grew her platform. And -she’s gonna hate when I say this like this - but
she's like the grandmother of makeup artistsfor, like, especially drag artists. But she has a
massive following in China. People come to see herin a show. She scares me every time she dances,
because I think she's gonna fall. She just hasthis movement that makes it look like she's gonna
(14:27):
tumble at any point, and I’m just like “****,someone's got to catch her.” She also has a new
line of makeup brushes, which I did not get.Fantasia, if you ever listen to this, I would
like to get a free set of makeup brushes. (Also,I'll pay for one to support). Um Miss UniVers!
Miss UniVers is from Russia, very well known inShanghai as a dancer. Does not speak English.
(14:52):
I'm kidding, she speaks English, you just have tolike… When you tell her a joke, you have to know
that her response does not mean she doesn'tfind it funny. It's mostly just her like “Mmm,
I understand”. And it’s like. “OK? Oh,OK!”. Actually when I first met her,
I thought she hated me, and then I just found outit's her face. She's very nice. She's so sweet.
(15:15):
She's one of the performers that Iwork with the most actually, we're
both contracted to work at the same club. Yeah.OF: Well, I have to cut you for time. I'm sure
you would have given me many more names.C: Oh, just one more, just one more.
Just one more name.OF: Go on.
Dorian T. Fisk, one of the reigning drag kings from Shanghai. Dorian does drag king like
I've never seen before. They are a really greatperformer. They use props like there's no one's
(15:40):
business. But also they just look stunning.It's incredible. Yeah. Okay. That's all.
OF (15:45):
Wow. Thank you. I want to go back to your culture. You've mentioned your background in
Boston, you’ve mentioned your Latinx background…So what was this, tell me about your family?
C (15:55):
My mother is born and raised in Boston, she is Cuban and Colombian. My grandfather, mother's
father, is Afro-Latino. And my grandmother is fromColombia. My father is Taíno and Puerto Rican.
Taíno is a Native American.OF: Right.
It’s very much not known. OF
(16:18):
Because if you… Here's the thing. If you know Christopher Columbus, and you think of the
“Indians” - I’m doing quotes - that he firstmet, the Taínos were what history talks about.
OF (16:32):
Uh huh. C
is because the majority of us were wiped out.OF: Right. And then we've touched upon your
artistic background. What can you say abouthow that developed when you were growing up?
C (16:46):
Oh, er, tee-ball is a sport in the USA, where it's a precursor to baseball, where young children
go up to a stick with the ball on it, and youhit the ball, and then you run around the bases.
I **** loathe tee ball. I thought it was the mostuseless… I’m like “What is this teaching you?
Just to hit something on a stick? Like, it'sridiculous”. So while I was in the outfield,
(17:12):
I used to just draw on the field.OF: How funny. C:
Yeah, I just used to draw, like, little designsand things like that. And my mom's like “Well,
he's not liking this, maybe we should just puthim in an art class.” And then I did an art class,
and I was like “OK I like this.” And then fromthere - in schools and after-school programmes and
things like that - I started really just exploringdifferent mediums of art, which was great.
OF (17:33):
So really, it was a synthesis of art and sport right there.
C (17:36):
Oh, it's so funny you should say that. I have something called synaesthesia.
OF (17:41):
Oh right. C
like, a cross between your senses. So for me,I have lexical synaesthesia, which means that
I see colours when I'm looking at some kindof text. So if I'm reading, or if I'm writing,
there's a lot of jarring colours that can popout from the text. Which is why it was a little
(18:04):
bit of an issue for me growing up, because Iwas a very slow reader. I still hate reading.
I could get the work done, it wasn't an issuefor me. But it was kind of a handicap when I was
in school. You know, when the teacher callson you, and they're like “Can you read this
passage for me?” And I was like “I don't want to.”OF: Because when you did so, it would have bright
(18:26):
colours coming out of the text.C: Yeah. Right now, I still have
it. A lot of people grow out of it. But forme it still can be a nuisance because, like,
you'll look at something really quickly, and thenit'll just flash in your face, and that's how
I see it for me. However, I learned growing uphow to use it to my advantage. So I was able to
(18:47):
memorise lines quicker for, like, shows. Math,I could see the way the colours would, kind of,
direct me to the things that I needed to do.So I could remember formulas really easily.
It translates a little bit when I'm readingChinese, because I started learning Chinese when
I was 11. So I use that to, kind of like, balancebetween the pictures of the 汉子 [hànzi] and, like,
(19:11):
the 拼音 [pīnyīn]. And I was like “Oh, I canremember these together, if I just remember
the colour coordination”. It still is annoying.And that's why I, kind of, listen to podcasts…
Thank you! C
I still love reading, and I love research. Butsynaesthesia has always been there to bother me.
How bizarre! C
(19:31):
Well, maybe that's a good place to end this first section, because you talked about how you
should embrace the things that are perhaps notperfect about you, whatever ‘perfect’ means.
Apologies to everyone who knows thatI've missed out 15 chapters of your life…
C (19:46):
No don’t… You always say “Let's move on to Round 2,” and then people are just like “OK.”
But cue the music for round two! A-ha!OF: Dammit!
[Part 2]OF:
What's your favourite China-related fact?C: Um, I don't have one. Only because,
here's the thing, the facts that I knew aboutChina keep changing. So like, sometimes I'll come
(20:09):
here and I'll be like “Oh, that's an interestingfact". And then I find out a new piece of
information, and I’m like “What the hell?”OF: Yes.
“I learned it a different way. That's not… That doesn't work out at all for me,” So I don't
really have a China-related fact.OF: Oh that's a good one.
Yeah. OF
have a favourite word or phrase in Chinese?C: Oh my god. I do. OK, are you ready for
this? 说曹操曹操就到 [Shuō Cáocāo, Cáocāo jiù dào]or 说曹操曹操到 [Shuō Cáocāo, Cáocāo dào], which
(20:33):
means like…OF: Hang on, 曹操 [Cáocāo] is the
famous guy from history.C: Yes.
OF (20:41):
OK. So hang on, 说曹操曹操知道 [Shuō Cáocāo Cáocāo zhīdào]?
C (20:42):
就到 [Jiù dào]. So it's like the Chinese version of saying “Speak of the devil,
the devil will come”.OF: Right.
Right. All right, so it's really great because it's like, it just kind of rolls off the tongue
really fun. And you could always just say like“Oh, 说曹操 [shuō Cáocāo],” like when someone
enters a room and you're like, "Oh, this **** ishere.” That's what you can use. I had a teacher
in Beijing who used it very often. And I was like“Oh, OK, you’re a sassy teacher!” So it was really
(21:05):
bad. But I love that phrase, I don't know why.OF: That's great, thank you. What is
your favourite destination within China?C: My favourite place in China is any place
with a very large window and a coffee shop.Now, the reason being is because, I like going
on a train and going to a random city, finding acoffee shop, and just sitting by the window, doing
(21:31):
my work, and people-watching. That's just what Ienjoy doing. I love doing it in the U.S. as well.
OF (21:37):
I like that. C
If you left China, what would you miss the most, and what would you miss the least?
C (21:43):
Same answer for both. It's a combination of three things Taobao, 美团 [Měituán], and 嘀嘀[Dídí].
Once I go back home to the US, I'm going tobe so sad that I have to start using Amazon,
or I can't order food randomly in the middle ofthe night, without paying a surcharge of like
(22:03):
500元 [Yuán], you know, or getting a taxi forthe price of a cup of coffee. And I get it,
I understand why. But my God, it's soconvenient. And I hate that I've adapted to it
so well.OF: Oh,
this is why it's also the thing you won't miss.C: Oh, it makes me a monster. I’m gonna have to,
(22:23):
like, learn how to be a stable human beingwithout the aid of things that can come to
my doorstep whenever I need it. Yeah.OF: Is there something that still
surprises you about life in China?C: China has grown so fast and so quickly,
and so many cities have developed. But one thingthat will always surprise me is the obstacles
that China puts in the way, that I think it'sjust for like people to get a kick out of.
(22:48):
Like, the only entrance into the Metro is,you have to walk all the way down here.
And we could open this stall up, but we'renot going to do that. They're just minute,
little things that just don’t… it's not necessary.OF: I think it's all the more pronounced because
99% of the things are quite streamlined, arequite organised. And then, why? Why have this
(23:12):
one thing which does not make sense?C: Yes, it's just the little things.
OF (23:16):
Where is your favourite place to go out, to eat or drink or hang out?
C (23:20):
Oh, I am a huge foodie. And I say this with pride, I'm foodie, and I'm fat, and I love it.
That being said, I thoroughly wantto give a shout-out to Charlie’s…
OF (23:30):
Charlie's Burgers, is it? C
times really, really late at night, where I'm justlike "Alright, I need to eat something, because
I'm coming home from work at 4am.” And I don'tmind eating something like 兰州拉面 [Lánzhōu lāmiàn],
but, like, I don't want something heavy and oilyand greasy. And I'm like “Oh, Charlie's is open.
(23:52):
I can just have like a chicken nugget.”OF: What is the best or worst
purchase you've made in China?C: The worst purchase I ever made was
these shoes. And being like a 47/48 in Chinasize, I'm thinking “Oh OK, maybe I can,
you know, find something that will fit,” becauseeveryone has all these really nice shoes.
(24:14):
And I have like, three, from the U.S.Because it’s the only thing I have.
And I bought these shoes, and theywere just… I don't know what they were.
They weren't designed for a human foot. They'relike “Oh, a goat is gonna be wearing this,
it'll be fine.” It was just shaped so off, and itpinched in ways that, like, never pinched before.
And stupid me was like “I'm gonna wear thesefor a show. They’re supposed to hurt like this.
(24:38):
It's fine.” Those things were so,so poorly made, the heel snapped.
Oh, God. C
so angry. I was like “Who is this made for?”OF: What is your favourite WeChat sticker?
C (24:51):
Oh, there's so many. Um… OF
I sent you. Do you see it? So my favourite Corona WeChat sticker is that meme of the dog
on fire. He's just, like, sitting in aburning room being like, “Oh, it's fine.”
Another one is from one of my favourite TV shows,it’s like a little cartoon show, and it's just
(25:13):
like this lumpy space princess. And she'sjust like “You're bad. And I like it.”
OF (25:18):
Oh that’s great. C
use the most is a flipping-the-hair-backkind of sticker. I use that too often,
and it's mostly because I know when I was younger,I used to do that all the time. I'd be like, yep.
And it's the tongue placement too. C
that I make all the time.OF: Oh that’s great.
C (25:39):
That is the sticker that I use the most. OF
I am not a singer. I have no musical bone in my body. I really don't. I don't.
I like musicals, I like Broadway musicals. But Imostly just kind of like, chill at KTV, while my
friends - who are all performance people - sing.But I'm pretty good at Superbase, by Nicki Minaj.
OF (26:03):
OK. C
And finally, what other China-related sources of information do you rely on?
C (26:10):
Oh my god, get ready for this. There is a website called 蛋蛋赞 [Dàndànzàn].
OF (26:14):
Oh right. C
especially if you don't have access to a lot offilm and television online. This website gives you
the access to watch a variety of television showsOF: Oh it’s got a good library, has it?
C (26:29):
Oh it has the best. You'll never have a problem finding
something you want to watch on. 蛋蛋赞 [Dàndànzàn].OF: Wow. OK, you've opened a new door for me.
Oh, please, you have to use it. OF
Oh, thank you, Mr. Fuchs. OF
don't you? If there was anyone in China who yourecommend that I should interview for the next
(26:50):
season of Mosaic of China, who would you refer?C: Yes, there is an individual named Xie Xiao.
He is one of the heads for CinemaQ, whichis a queer film initiative in Shanghai.
I think it would be really fun to havea conversation with him, because he has
great stories. Because he also does work withanother programme called Queer Talks as well.
OF (27:12):
Well, thank you. I look forward to meeting Xie Xiao. And thank you again, Coco.
C (27:16):
Thank you for having me. And please, please, please don't tell anyone about this interview.
[Outro]OF:
So, first things first, if you havebeen questioning whether or not to
subscribe to the premium version of the show,
I hope today’s episode will push you thatmuch closer to making the investment.
(27:39):
It’s just 2 dollars a month, and it gives youa lot more content in each weekly episode.
And just to prove it, here are some excerptsfrom the longer version of today’s interview:
[Clip 1]C: But that's just me being judgy. Like,
I'm gonna always be judgy.OF: That’s your brand.
I know, it's so hard. [Clip 2]
The individuals who started the whole thing were slowly pushed to the back.
(28:02):
[Clip 3]C: I’m smart, China, I am. I have degrees.
[Clip 4]C: To me from my American mind,
I think this is a huge political statement.[Clip 5]
C:“You look like a troll doll.” Well,OK. I guess we're not doing that anymore!
[Clip 6]C: “Hey,
(28:22):
can you send this tomorrow, because Ireally need it”. But I don’t. I never
need it. I just want it.[End of Audio Clips]
One quick correction, Coco and I both misspokewhen saying the name of his referral for Season 3,
which should be pronounced Xie Xiaorather than “Xue” Xiao. Coco also wanted
me to clarify his comment on the BeijingOpera. He’s a fan of its rich tradition,
(28:45):
it’s just that his body simply can’t cope withthe frequency of the sounds that come out of it.
Just search online for any video of BeijingOpera, and you’ll see what he means.
Speaking of online, there are a lot ofphotos to accompany this week’s episode,
I went a bit crazy today,especially with images of Coco,
some of which she gave me herself and othersthat I took from her social media channels.
(29:08):
Many of those were taken at the venue where she- and other drag queens - perform regularly,
which is The Pearl in Shanghai, so go seeher there if you can. And unfortunately,
no, you won’t be able to laugh at her shoes fromnow on. Since recording this episode she told me
that she has found a trusted Taobao seller forbuying heels in her size. Congratulations Coco.
(29:32):
OK, I can hear that I’m switching from ‘he’ to‘she’, whenever my mind switches between Jiovani
and Coco. Whatever! You can see all these imageson Instagram, Facebook and WeChat, just search
for mosaicofchina - all one word - and you’ll getto us. I’ve censored the photo of the object Coco
brought, you’ll have to be a Patreon subscriber tosee Kevin in his full glory. But you can see all
the rest (29:57):
there are the WeChat stickers; there’s an old family photo of Coco with the whole del
Toro family back in Boston; some photos of theother Shanghai Drag Queens that Coco mentioned;
an image that depicts how words look for peoplewith synaesthesia; and so many more, I just don’t
have the time to go through them all here, soplease check them out, I promise it’s worth it.
(30:20):
Mosaic of China is me, Oscar Fuchs, with artworkby Denny Newell. Stick around for the shortened
version of my catch-up chat with Sebastien Denesfrom SAP, and I’ll see you again next week.
[Catch-Up Interview]OF:
(30:44):
Sebastien, lovely to see you.Sebastien DENES: Same here.
OF (30:47):
What has been your Coronavirus story? SD
because we are here living ourlife. But on the other side,
with all of our families back in Europe,in Italy, in France, we are struggling
with them as well a little bit, right.OF: Yeah, schizophrenic is the right word.
And also, you're guilty becauseyou're having quite a normal
(31:07):
life compared to your family back in Europe.SD: Yeah. I think we talked a lot about privilege,
last time we talked.OF: Yeah
SD (31:12):
You realise how privileged you are to have this key to travel, which is your passport,
where we could navigate COVID fairly easily.OF: Yes, you had choices.
Exactly. OF
Is your job the same? Is your situation the same?SD: Well, I'm actually in a transition. This is
(31:33):
something we planned for years. And I'm movingout from Sales & Services to Engineering.
OF (31:39):
OK. SD
… Oh, which is where Steve is? SD
Let’s talk about then, Steve, as the example you gave as somebody on the autism spectrum that
you hired here in China?SD: Yep.
Have you noticed that the people like Steve - and other people on the
spectrum - managed this situation differently?SD: Again, it's an opinion, right. So I think they
(31:59):
have this capability to adapt to a less socialenvironment. Nevertheless, the challenge for
us is, how do we keep the link?OF: Mmm.
SD (32:09):
Right? And how do we keep them engaged? Because being in the office
is also helping them engaging, socialising withcolleagues, and eventually customers as well.
And this has been a little bit taken awayfrom them. For example, Steve had a buddy
that was sitting very close to him, and beingthere to help him, and eventually support him,
(32:33):
and vice versa. And, of course, with not beingphysically together, then you need to look for
different communication methods, right. And bythe way, Steve is not alone. We hired a couple
of other employees on the spectrum. We are in theprocess to hire one right now, because we didn't
want COVID to be our excuse not to continue.OF: That’s great. Because it's like a muscle that,
(32:56):
if you don't exercise it,it will start to atrophy.
That’s interesting, because that's the conversation I had yesterday with a few
other people. We were talking about a completelydifferent subject, LGBTQ. It's very easy to be
LGBTQ-friendly during the month of June,because it's the month of LGBTQ. Nevertheless,
it's all those other months that are tough.Because this is where you need to be consistent.
(33:19):
This is where you need to be really inclusive,when nobody's looking, when nobody's watching.
When we met 15 months ago, we were establishinga lot of foundations that we see, today,
holding our entire building of Diversity andInclusion within the company. Many of the actions
(33:39):
that we started, that I started personally,I am very lightly involved, which means…
OF (33:45):
…That it’s been embedded in the culture. SD
of. Not so much of what I've done, but muchmore of the seeds that have been planted,
and the trees that have grown.OF: Well, that's great. And you know,
it's nice to hear that a year on, it'snot just a story, but it's a legacy.
(34:06):
Sebastien, thank you so much. It's been great tocatch up with you again. You actually referred
somebody who, for certain reasons, could notbe part of the next season of the podcast.
But we have a very nice person who could stepin. And so I will include parts of this interview
in that episode. It's still been agreat excuse to catch up with you,
(34:27):
so good luck with the future.SD: Thank you, Oscar.
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