July 12, 2021 • 38 mins
What can anyone learn from a DJ? It turns out… a helluva lot, especially when the DJ in question is DJ BO. Based in China for the last decade, DJ BO has led a peripatetic life which has taken him on countless adventures in the pursuit of sharing his love of eclectic music, most famously becoming the first international DJ to ever play a set in North Korea. DJ BO's roots in Asia stem from his early years living in Mongolia, and he now also devotes energy into advancing the knowledge and appreciation of Mongolian culture in China. And while obsessively curating and showcasing music from this and other overlooked corners of the world, his story also teaches us the importance of respecting the art and culture on your own doorstep. The episode also includes a catch-up interview with Abe Deyo from Season 01 Episode 27. (https://mosaicofchina.com/season-01-episode-27-abe-deyo). Chapters 00:00 - Trailer & Intro 01:26 - Part 1 24:05 - Part 2 31:07 - Outro 34:09 - Catch-Up Interview Subscribe to the PREMIUM version, see the visuals, and/or follow the full transcript for this episode at https://mosaicofchina.com/season-02-episode-23-dj-bo.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
[Trailer]BO: If you're only doing things that are safe,
what the hell are you doing? You know whatI'm saying?
OF (00:09):
Yep.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
If there's one word that I'd use to describetoday's guest DJ BO, it's 'eclectic'. So hold
on to your red hats, because this conversationgoes all over the place. As his name would
(00:30):
suggest, my guest today is a DJ, so the through-lineof our conversation is the topic of music,
and music appreciation, and the lifestyleof a peripatetic DJ based in China. But since
DJ BO has so many stories to tell, everythinghe says becomes a temptation to use him as
a proxy to talk about any manner of topics,and to go down any number of tangents. And
(00:55):
you'll hear that we do explore quite a fewof these tangents. But what I wanted to achieve
in this conversation was not to define thisperson just as the sum of his stories. I wanted
to get to a place where we can discuss somethingthat is relatable to many of us. And at the
end of Part 1, I think we get there.
DJ BO is a fast talker, so let me remind youthat you can follow the transcript of today's
(01:19):
show on https://mosaicofchina.com, or headto YouTube where you can follow the subtitles
in real time.
[Part 1]OF: So you go by the DJ stage name ‘DJ BO’,
correct?BO: ‘DJ BO: No stops, all caps; no brags,
just facts’.OF: Aye. I have the audio of the previous
person who nominated you. So why don't welisten quickly to that part.
BO (01:42):
I heard this, yeah. [Start of Audio Clip]
Abe DEYO (01:43):
I'd like to recommend a friend of mine, DJ BO. He's been here for about 10 years.
He's DJ’ed all over, like the first timeI really got to know him is when he asked
me if I wanted to go with him to North Koreato be his photographer. He was the first DJ
to perform there. So he has a lot of interestingstories.
(02:05):
[End of Audio Clip]OF: So tell me a little bit about your relationship
with Abe, that was Abe Deyo from Season 01.BO: He’s a scoundrel. Don't be fooled by
him, he’s a sweet guy, but he's a scoundreland a vagabond. And a great guy, though. It
was great having him as a kind of pseudo tourmanager for the North Korea project.
OF (02:22):
Well, that's one of the things I really want to talk about today.
BO (02:25):
Absolutely. OF
the first thing I ask you is, what objectdid you bring that in some way describes your
life here in China?BO: Well, I did come prepared. And I brought
a record by Esther Chan. It’s a vinyl record,12 inches, it's an LP. Esther Chan was an
artist in Hong Kong, and she put out thisLP, and it's amazing. One song I play all
(02:50):
the time is her cover of ‘Hit The Road Jack’,and also her cover of The Lord's Prayer.
OF (02:56):
Whoa. BO
Huh. BO
playing music - that I go out and find inthe places that I'm at - that's a big part
of my philosophy and what I do, so I broughta record of Esther Chan. And I call the the
sets that I do ‘border-breaks internationalfunky sounds’. And it's important to me
(03:17):
to reflect who I am and where I'm at, andI spend a lot of time in Hong Kong, and that's
a Hong Kong record. You know, as a DJ, whereyou are someone who is taking snidbits and
snatches from audio and music, putting itout in a new way - you're re-contextualising
things, I should say - to me, it's ridiculousthat right now, in Los Angeles and in London
(03:42):
and in Shanghai and Sri Lanka and Tokyo, youmight have a hip hop night, and all the DJ
sets are the same. To me, if you're in a differentplace, you should reflect where you're at.
I'm here in Shanghai, and I spend a lot oftime on the road, so I want to reflect that.
I see myself as an old school entertainer.I've always been into vintage gear. And, you
(04:05):
know, I consider myself an urbane vagrant.And this is a 宝安 [bǎo'ān] jacket that
I picked up in Shanghai at a supply store.OF: And can you explain what 宝安 [bǎo’ān]
means, to those who don’t know.BO: Oh the 宝安 [bǎo’ān] are the security
guys who work in different complexes, andyou can find them mostly sleeping in their
boxes.OF: Right.
BO (04:24):
That’s my jacket with the buttons. I got my bandanna here. Oh, the T-shirt is 武汉
[Wǔhàn] Prison, a legendary bar. I thinkI was the first DJ to perform there. And I
think it's the best bar in China.OF: Wow.
Then they opened 武汉 [Wǔhàn] Prison Tattoo. And right next to it, they opened
(04:44):
up one other store. I'm going to ask you,Oscar, what do you think it is? We have 武汉
[Wǔhàn] Prison Bar, 武汉 [Wǔhàn] PrisonTattoo, and…
OF (04:52):
Oh gosh. Mine’s such a mainstream guess, is it a restaurant?
BO (04:57):
武汉 [Wǔhàn] Prison Bagel, of course. OF
dammit.BO: I love that whole thing. So especially
in these times, I want to give a shout outto 武汉 [Wǔhàn]. And I got my hat, which
is kind of a signature thing for me, it’sthis red hat I picked up in Дархан [Darkhan],
which is a city I lived in for a few yearsin Mongolia. The mayor of Дархан [Darkhan]
(05:18):
gave me the highest Citizenship Award youcan give someone, for some of the charity
and other arts in contributions that I'vedone with Дархан [Darkhan]. It's got
the symbol of Дархан [Darkhan] on it.And I… people like when I wear the red hat,
it gets requested. I wish it was somethingthat was easier to get around, you know, it's
a big thick hat. Like, I wish I had a signaturething of like, you know, a ring. Because that,
(05:40):
I can stick in my pocket, and I can bringthat around. But if you're going to get DJBO,
you want to get the red hat.OF: Oh dear. Look, I think you've exemplified
what I am excited and scared about with ourentire interview. Because I've just asked
you one question, and you were able to talkfor five minutes. And you talked in a manner
which went through the city of 武汉 [Wǔhàn],the clothes that you're wearing, your experience
(06:04):
in Mongolia, and perhaps five other thingsthat I could jump off from, which is making
my head spin slightly.BO: Sorry.
OF (06:11):
So how the hell are we going to make this work for a 25-minute podcast? I guess the
thing that I wanted to latch on to mostlywith what you said was, the world is becoming
more globalised. And in that way, it's slightlydiluting different cultures, because as you
said, we're playing the same music in everybar.
BO (06:26):
Sure. OF
you - which I think is a really modern skillset- is the curatorial skillset. Like, to have
access to so much in terms of media, in termsof information, but the ability of one person
to actually curate that into something, whichis special; which says something about not
just the venue but you as a person; whichcreates an experience. Is that part of your
(06:50):
ethos?BO: Absolutely. It's that I love that when
you look at something with context - whichrequires some time and space - you’re able
to examine its place, and its effect, andreally what it is. So for example, right now
we can go to a movie at the movie theatre,and we can see the brand new movie. Or you
(07:13):
can choose the best movie of 1950 - whichhappens to be Sunset Blvd. - and you can look
at the careers of the people before and after;you can look at its place in culture, and
examine it. And I really see my interest inmusic being kind of concentric circles where
I would find an artist, and just kind of surroundthat artist, looking at his contemporaries
(07:34):
and looking at his influences.OF: Right.
Chuck Berry played shows with Jerry Lee Lewis. OK, well now we need to learn about
Jerry Lee Lewis. Chuck Berry's guitar wasinfluenced by Carl Hogan, who was the guitarist
in Louis Jordan And His Tympany Five. OK wellnow I need to look up Louis Jordan, I love
Louis Jordan, and Chuck Berry influenced otherpeople after him. So I love being able to
(07:55):
examine those things. And contextualisingthings, and understanding where they come
from, allows you to curate it better.OF: Yeah, because it's all of the texture,
the colour, the history, the connections,the influences. I'm always impressed with
people who have that kind of catalogue ofreferences. How do you catalogue it? How do
(08:16):
you know when to use a certain piece, fromwhich era, mixed with what modern piece of
music?BO: It's really hard to verbalise, you know.
It’s “Am I trying to get people to dance?”And then you need to look at the energy of
the song. And the beats per minute tends tobe something that DJs look too much at. But
it's an important thing in terms of smoothtransitions. If you play things that are completely
(08:39):
without context, people get lost. But also,if you play things that just people know,
and they're already familiar with, what'sthe purpose of you doing what you're doing
at all anyway? I'm not here to punish an audience,but I hope they pick up things from it. You
know, nothing makes me happier than when someonegoes up to a DJ booth, or wherever I'm at,
and says “Hey, what was that?” And thenI can connect them with the people.
OF (09:02):
Yeah. BO
wins in that situation.OF: Nice. And is that something which you
do, actually, intentionally. So let's say,you have one track that you know is going
to be popular, and then you place it nextto one where you know that it might not be
as popular, but you can try and get some leveragefrom that feeling?
BO (09:19):
Yeah, you know, you always have to balance. It's, you know, it's ‘the sugar and the
medicine' thing. Like, you know, you givethem something that they can go away with.
And I want someone to be able to listen towhat I do for two minutes and be able to say
“Oh, that's DJ BO”.OF: Yeah. Well, you have talked about where
you've lived, where you've been, where you'vetravelled. So this harks back to the introduction
(09:42):
that I got from Abe, which was when he saidthat you and he went to North Korea together.
Sure. OF
Oh, it's got to be, like seven years now, about.
OF (09:52):
Right. BO
but it's also just a very sexy topic becauseit's such an extreme situation. When I think
about North Korea, I think about - you know,because I was able to get away from the tour
group, because I was doing the DJ thing - wewent to the burger joint In North Korea, and
people were singing karaoke songs, which wasan amazing experience. And it was really just
(10:12):
a beautiful thing.OF: Wow. Well, let's just talk about North
Korea in terms of the DJ’ing experiencethen.
BO (10:17):
Yeah. OF
Very briefly, Simon who is the head honcho at Koryo Tours, had a friend who wanted to
do a tour in China, a musician. And I helpedhim out, and he said “How much do I need
to pay you?” I was like “I don't wantany money. I want to DJ in North Korea.”
He said “No, forget it.” I said “I wantto DJ in North Korea.” He said “No.”
I said “I want to DJ in North Korea.”He said “OK wait, let's think about this”.
(10:40):
And it went through a couple of differentiterations, but in the end they found a hotel
next to the one where other foreigners stayat, and a basement, a big karaoke area. We
were able to set it up, Abe made a beautifulposter for the event, actually. And I DJ’ed.
They said “Don't play any South Korean music.”I did. You know, the power went out a couple
times. You know, things started off slow.But then I would play something like ‘The
(11:03):
Twist’. And it was something were the expatsthere, they can grab North Koreans and show
them how to dance. Because the North Koreanpeople had never danced in an un-choreographed
way before.OF: Oh right, of course.
They were super sceptical about what to do, it was very much like, you know, a Kevin
Bacon movie from the 80s.OF: Right. And we have skirted around one
part of your background, which we haven'treally gone into.
(11:25):
Oh. OF
actually that you first came into Mongolia,correct?
So I went to the University of Florida, my home state, and less than a week after
I graduated, I was shipped off to Mongoliawith the Peace Corps.
OF (11:42):
OK. BO
I am, yeah. BO
Impossible’ style, because they don't tellyou the exact country until you receive it
in letter form. I opened it up, it said Mongolia.I had really no knowledge of Mongolia at all.
I was like “Sure, whatever”. They shippedme out to Mongolia. I did two years three
months, the full Peace Corps service. Onlyabout half the people make it through Peace
(12:05):
Corps Mongolia completely. And then I stayedfor a little less than another year working
at a nightclub, managing a place called ‘TheCross-Eyed Gypsy’. But at the end of it,
I was sick of getting beaten up by the ‘DayarMongol’, the Mongolian neo-Nazis. I was
sick of -40 degree winters. So I moved backto South Florida.
(12:25):
So how long had you been in Mongolia at that point?
BO (12:27):
About three years. OF
So I was back in South Florida. I worked as a dancer and an MC for Platinum Gold Entertainment,
danced at the halftime show at the Super Bowl,had a lot of fun. But I was sick of being
in South Florida with my family, Florida wasjust boring for me at that point. And so I
applied for jobs all around the world. Butthe first place to accept me was Disney English
in China.OF: Oh.
(12:48):
It was in Shanghai. OF
Mongolia down to China?BO: No, I had about six months in South Florida.
OF (12:54):
And it wasn't even on your radar to go to China?
BO (12:57):
It was not. So I ended up in Shanghai. And now I have more people living in my neighbourhood
in Shanghai than in the entire country ofMongolia.
OF (13:03):
Yeah, exactly. BO
is something called ARTGER, which I run witha friend named Javkhaa Ara. We show Mongolian
culture - some traditional thing, some modernthings, some fusion things - and we’ve got
200,000 subscribers on YouTube, and it's abig project that I do. And we're starting
ARTGER China now, where we're putting thingson 哔哩哔哩 [Bìlībìlī]. Because honestly
(13:24):
a big influence on that was, a lot of peoplein China were just stealing the content and
posting it down here anyway.OF: Oh is that right?
BO (13:30):
Yeah, so now we are trying to put a footprint here in China, stronger. But we're also filming
content here, and really just promoting Mongoliathings. You know, I've known other people
who have been all around the world, and I'vebeen told by multiple people that Mongolia
is just a place that has a deeper impact ina lot of ways. I know you've been to Mongolia,
I think you've expressed similar sentiments.OF: Yeah, it was like nowhere I've been before.
(13:54):
And then what is your take on the relationshipbetween China and Mongolia?
Well, that's a very sticky topic. Чингис хаан [Chinggis Khaan], 800 years ago,
starts the biggest land empire. Not ‘GenghisKhan’ like white boy Westerners say, Чингис
хаан [Chinggis Khaan]. His grandson isХубилай хаан [Kublai Khan], and
he comes down to China. And he makes Beijingthe capital of the empire.
OF (14:17):
Yep, 大都 [Dàdū]. BO
family kind of falls apart, very classic style.And you have China kind of reigning over Mongolia
then, essentially. Until in the early 1920s,you had Сүхбаатар [Sükhbaatar] bring
in the White Russians. Then from the 1920sto the very early 90s, you had the Russians
(14:38):
taking over. But during that period, whenthe Russians took over, they basically told
the Chinese “Hey look, lay off of Mongolia,but we're gonna cede the area now known as
Inner Mongolia to the Chinese”. So it waspart of Mongolia, and now it's China. And
it puts Mongolia in a difficult situation.Because, you know, for example, there's always
(14:58):
a new controversy every year, where there'sa new heritage instrument, and China will
claim a Mongolian instrument, for example.But Mongolians will say “Hey look, that's
our stuff, lay off”. And so Mongolia tryingto keep its own identity - while still relying
very heavily on the Chinese economy - makesthings very difficult. This is a very big,
(15:24):
intense topic that I'm only just scratchingthe surface of.
Yeah, absolutely. No, but as you're describing it, I can certainly see the tension there.
Because of course, the Mongolians of InnerMongolia, which is inside of China, they are
a protected minority group. And so that isa Chinese minority, they would say in China.
BO (15:43):
Yes. You know, I've talked with Mongolians who are visiting Inner Mongolia and they said
they faced racism. But I've also had popularrap songs by Mongolian artists that specifically
use derogatory terms for Chinese people intheir lyrics. In some ways, they kind of take
that on a nationalistic spirit as well.OF: Which you did touch on earlier. That was
(16:04):
one of the reasons that you were like “Oh,forget this. Let's go back to Florida”.
Yeah, and let's be clear, like, I refuse to romanticise things, I like to take things
as they are. So I'm not going to say thingsabout Mongolia that are just universally positive.
But I can say that because I love Mongolia.You just have to look at things truthfully,
you know, I want to still maintain my compassof what's good and right about the world,
(16:29):
while still respecting other perspectives.You know, it's like when you go to a show
that you're not invested in, it's very easyjust to sit back and clap because you don't
care. But if you really care about something,you're more engaged with it, and you're willing
to be angry or upset when it doesn't meetsome standards that you might have.
OF (16:47):
Do you prefer a ‘boo’ to a polite clap?
BO (16:50):
Oh, let's put it this way, I'll say I would rather have a reaction in some way than
no reaction at all. So a ‘boo’ to a politeclap… maybe. Every once in a while, you
need to clear the dance floor to make sureyou know you're still pushing things a bit.
You know what I'm saying?OF: Yep.
You know, it's the same thing with stand up comedy, or any other art, you know. If
(17:14):
you're only doing things that are safe, whatthe hell are you doing? If people go out and
they're their real selves, and they're representingwho they are, they can really do anything.
OF (17:23):
I want to get back to something you said earlier about your experience DJ’ing in
武汉 [Wǔhàn], and how you like the punkscene there, which I've heard is quite unique,
right?BO: Uh-huh.
Tell me a little bit about the scene in China. I'm most interested in perhaps what
the differences are between the differentregions that you've experienced.
BO (17:41):
Sure, well, you have different scenes that have developed in different cities. With
武汉 [Wǔhàn], it’s a punk city. In 成都[Chéngdū] you have hip hop, a couple of
really interesting clubs were built there,and it being a little bit more isolated, they
could get away with getting into a music andan art-form that in other places might have
(18:02):
been pushed to the side. Shanghai has alwaysbeen seen as less of an important city from
an artistic standpoint. It's always been seenas kind of a commercial city. There's been
some interesting things in the electronicmusic scene - some of the experimental music
scene - in Shanghai. Beijing, they have asound. It's the most developed in that way.
(18:25):
A lot of atypical chaotic sounds that aresustained, if that makes sense.
OF (18:30):
Yeah. BO
the Beijing scene. And when you're in Beijing,and it's smoggy, and there's the cars everywhere,
and it's just noisy, you can feel it in thecity.
And do they cross pollinate? So do you play Beijing music in 武汉 [Wǔhàn]? Do
you play Shanghai music in 成都 [Chéngdū]?BO: Of course, I think that's so important
(18:50):
to do, because again, it's reflecting my journey.One thing that I find super fascinating is,
places not taking pride in their local musicscene, and wanting to promote what they see
as being ‘international’ or ‘cool’.If I'm in Mongolia, there will be a Mongolian
promoter who will say to me specifically “Don'tplay Mongolian music”. Because they see
(19:13):
it almost as not as good as the internationalside. There's something beautiful about the
local music scenes. And to me, I want to reflectthat, that’s why I go digging in these specific
cities. I will go to a place like Dhaka, Bangladesh,and I'll say “Let's go music digging, let
me discover music”. And I'll be like "Thisis so great. I'm gonna play this around the
world”. And no one ever believes me, tillI send them a video of me doing it. There's
(19:37):
such great music that can be discovered, anda lot of it just doesn't make it into the
commercial space.OF: When you talk about going to Mongolia,
and they say “No, don't play Mongolian records”,I think that could be just “If I wanted
to have a Mongolian record, I would have gota Mongolian DJ. I’ve got you.”
BO (19:52):
Incorrect. OF
What you're saying seems logical. But the people in the local scenes won't play
the music. I was in Kuala Lumpur, and I playeda song by Too Phat called ‘KL’. And the
DJs who were in the city were like “Yeah,why don't we play this song more?” To me,
it's preposterous that people aren't playingthe music from their communities.
OF (20:13):
I think that you're at a stage where you've done it the right way around. Because there
are people who have a very linear career,and they experience one certain thing very
deeply in their 20s; and then by the timethey're in their 30s they have reached a certain
level in that career, which you might sayis ‘middle management’; and they're all
set for senior management in their 40s and50s. But then, someone like you, I think you're
(20:38):
still in the expanding phase, you are stillin the experiencing phase, you’re still
collecting experiences, you're still collectingideas. And then you’re gonna have a choice
at some point - which you haven't reachedyet - but something is going to coalesce.
Or you might just carry on being this person,chasing the next experience.
BO (20:57):
Well let's get deep here, Oscar, let's get it from the heart. So I worry that in
some way - this is something I reflect abouta lot, and I go back and forth on it - doing
what I do is a manifestation of being afraidof the settling down thing. It scares me,
in a way. And also - here's the tricky part- I've been in some situations where I couldn't
(21:21):
do things, because of mental illness periodswhere I've had to disengage with things. Now,
as someone who doesn't have a boss - wherepeople are not necessarily expecting me at
a certain time, unless I specifically makethe engagement - it's very easy to get lost
(21:41):
in my bedroom, and not come out. And no onewould know. There’s been times in my life
where I probably could have died alone inmy room, and no one would have known for quite
a long period of time. Because I'm engagedwith so many things, people might just be
used to not hearing from me for a while. I'velost some opportunities because of that. So
(22:04):
that's something that I've started to learn,how it manifests and what to do with it. And
I thought that as I got into my 30s, basedon things that I've read in literature, that
it would not be as difficult in some ways.But I found that not to be true. I find that
(22:26):
mental health issues don't necessarily goaway. So this past winter was one of the toughest
that I've had. And I did a ‘mini apologytour’ with some people, and there's some
people that I still need to talk to. And it'sa difficult subject, because I also know that
when I've talked with people about mentalhealth, a lot of people who don't experience
(22:47):
it really don't understand it. I find thatwhen I get really depressed, I find it very
difficult to talk with people at all. AndI really let people down who put faith in
me. Part of the manifestation of me havinga diversity of interests means that I can
always kind of shift my weight on the otherfoot a bit. It's a good and a bad thing. I
(23:10):
love DJ’ing and stuff. But it's also somethingthat makes it difficult to maintain relationships.
Friday nights and Saturday nights, those arethe times when I work.
OF (23:20):
Obviously, in that equation, you want someone who probably has similar hours.
BO (23:23):
Yeah, if you're that person hit me up on WeChat. I don’t know.
OF (23:27):
Thank you so much, I really appreciated that. I think we've only scratched the surface,
but from what you've shared, I personallycan understand your eclecticism, your intensity,
but actually just the love of what you do.BO: People can sense that I'm enthusiastic
(23:47):
about what I'm doing. And it's not somethingthat I fake in any sort of way. I really just
put myself out there, and they can tell. Andthat makes them happy, and it makes me happy,
so it's a great circle.OF: Agreed. Let's go on to Part 2.
BO (24:02):
Oh boy. Let's do it.
[Part 2]OF: So, Part 2.
Yes, the questions. OF
your favourite China-related fact.BO: In the 1930s, Shanghai was the fifth biggest
city in the world. And if you were a foreignperson in the concessions, the rules of China
(24:26):
did not apply to you. Shanghai has a greathistory of jazz, opium and whores. And I hope
to be keeping up that tradition, if not specifically,at least in spirit. It was built on the opium
trade, in large part. You know, in Americayou have what's called ‘the old weird America’,
but Shanghai has an ‘old weird’ past aswell. And I hope to manifest that in what
(24:49):
I do.OF: Do you have a favourite word or phrase
in Chinese?BO: Sure. My favourite one is related to a
big passion of mine. And it is the Chinesename of Elvis Presley. Are you familiar with
what it is?OF: I can't wait.
It’s 猫王 [Māo Wáng], the Cat King. OF
And I just love that sort of characterisation of Elvis.
OF (25:11):
Yeah. BO
person, 猫王 [Māo Wáng]. I mean, it'svery 50s slang, ‘cat’. You know, he was
that Memphis cat, and he's the king of rockand roll.
Exactly. BO
What's your favourite destination within China?
BO (25:25):
My favourite destination in China - we've touched upon this - is 武汉 [Wǔhàn]. It
was a city that I've been to more than anyother. I love Inferno in Shanghai, Temple
in Beijing. But 武汉 [Wǔhàn] Prison isthe coolest bar there. And every good bar
- every great bar, I should say - becomesthe personality of the manager. Her name is
(25:46):
Dong Dong, and she is an explosive characterthat can't really be characterised. Is she
20, is she 40? She wears these layers of clothing,she’s got these big dreadlocks, and she
cackles when she laughs, and 武汉 [Wǔhàn]Prison bar is almost a manifestation of who
she is.OF: I've never been, I've heard about the
(26:08):
river…BO: Yes. Because 武汉 [Wǔhàn], I mean,
you really have two cities there. It's a littlebit like Budapest.
OF (26:14):
Yeah. BO
All right, it’s on my list. I don't know when I'm going to go.
BO (26:19):
Do it. OF
the most, and what would you miss the least?BO: OK. Shanghai is such an international
city. And it's a place where I've met Dutchpeople, and Belgian people, and Italian people,
and Japanese people. I'm able to engage withso many different cultures and people here.
You can find some of that in New York andin London, but in Shanghai it just manifests
(26:43):
itself so much into the legacy and the historyof what Shanghai is.
OF (26:47):
Yeah. BO
that sort of policy of not engaging with thingsthat you find in China. The idea that when
there's a conflict, everyone stands back andwatches. When there's a problem, you just
kind of move away from things and you don'tengage with things. That’s one of the things
(27:11):
I don't like about China.OF: That's so interesting. Is that just a
function of this system of government? Isit a function of history? Is it a function
of culture? Like, what is that?BO: I would say that's what it is.
Uh-huh. I know which part you nodded the hardest at.
BO (27:26):
Yes, yes. OF
you about life in China?BO: Recently, I just got an offer to go DJ
in a city in 江苏 [Jiāngsū] province thatI never heard of called ‘Zhenjiang’…
‘Zhanjing’… I don't even know. But like,I thought I was at the end of going to new
cities in China. And out of nowhere, I gota hit up from someone who had seen me at a
(27:50):
party in 南京 [Nánjīng]. And they said“We want you to come to our city” and
I said “Sure”. So maybe sometimes I getcomplacent, and I forget about things like
that. But I love that. That's great.OF: Where's your favourite place to eat or
drink or hang out?BO: Well, on 定西路 [Dìngxī Lù] by 新华路
[Xīnhuá Lù] there's a cafe on the secondfloor there. And I consider that my office,
(28:13):
because you have food there, there’s goodinternet, it's a good people-watching spot,
so I generally have meetings at that spot.My friends know it as my office.
OF (28:22):
Oh nice. BO
my thing there.OF: What’s it called?
BO (28:28):
It’s the City Shop, which is like the international market there.
OF (28:32):
Yeah. BO
floor that no-one knows about or goes to.OF: No.
BO (28:36):
And you can order sandwiches there. They have food ready to eat there. They don't promote
it. And it's close to my apartment.OF: And you look on to the supermarket, or…
Yes. OF
you've made in China?BO: I mean, so much music and records that
I've bought while here. And I love my 宝安[bǎo'ān] jacket as well.
OF (28:58):
What is it, is there one supplier that supplies all of the 宝安 [bǎo'ān] jackets?
BO (29:01):
You know, I always try to keep this mysterious, but I'm going to engage with this. So they
have like, army surplus stores where you canpick up a hat, and jacket, and I've got a
whole collection of things there.OF: Don't worry, I think you're safe. I think
most people won't go out of their way to dothat.
Cool. Good. OF
OK, now let's talk about this Oscar. OF
(29:25):
Got it? OF
Well, let's talk about this. I invented something called ‘poetremes’.
OF (29:31):
Oh. BO
in the public domain., and I'll take snapshotsand I'll cut it up into clips that I can then
use to make my own WeChat stickers. And nowI have a huge collection of them.
Very cool. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
BO (29:50):
Chuck Berry and ‘Johnny B. Goode’ is such a great song, which has a great spirit
to it; There's a story; people know it fromBack to the Future; It’s got a very very
easy chorus for people to sing along to; andit's great.
OF (30:04):
That's true. Very nice. And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information
do you rely on?BO: I'm really interested in the history of
Shanghai nightlife. There's the Andrew Fieldbook, ‘Shanghai Nightscapes’. Super useful.
Very cool. Well, thank you so much, DJ BO. And the last thing that I would ask anyone
(30:26):
sitting in that chair is, for the next seasonof Mosaic of China, who do you recommend that
I interview?BO: I really love the Mongolian community.
And I find that in China, especially there'sa lot of confusion about who they are. They're
not Chinese, they have their own culture andstuff. And there's a very great designer named
Ruby, who's done some very interesting work.And I think it's important for that expat
(30:51):
community to be recognised as part of theMosaic of China. So I would recommend Ruby.
Oh, great. Then I can really talk about Mongolia for the whole episode.
BO (30:59):
She's a very interesting person, otherwise. But if you wanted to, you can.
OF (31:03):
Of course she is. Thank you so much. BO
[Outro]OF: So I double checked with DJ BO, and the
city in 江苏 [Jiāngsū] Province wherehe was invited to DJ was 镇江 [Zhènjiāng],
which it turns out is most famous for itsvinegar. It's right next to 南京 [Nánjīng],
and it was actually the capital of 江苏[Jiāngsū] Province from 1928 to 1949 while
(31:27):
南京 [Nánjīng] served as the capital ofthe whole Republic of China. Also on the subject
of cities, when DJ BO mentioned that Shanghaiis seen as less of an artistic city in China
and more of a commercial city, that was anecho from a similar comment made by the fashion
journalist Casey Hall in last week's episode.But there's also another hidden connection
(31:50):
to last week's episode, because DJ BO updatedme that - in a development from what he said
in our recording - in the past few monthsthe Chinese DJs he comes across are now starting
to take more pride in music from China, especiallyChinese hip hop. So this mirrors the growing
trend that Casey had been seeing with Chinesepeople taking more pride in Chinese fashion
(32:11):
brands too. And there was one final connectionI wanted to mention, DJ BO is the second Floridian
in Season 2, can you remember who the otherperson from Florida was? 5-4-3-2-1, it was
Sean Harmon, the CEO of the Belgian beer companyDuvel Moortgat from Episode 09.
(32:33):
As always, you can check out all the accompanyinggraphics to today's episode on social media.
Just type in mosaicofchina on Instagram orFacebook, and the right page will appear.
Otherwise add me on WeChat using my ID (32:43):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group there myself.
And there's also plenty more from our conversationin the PREMIUM version of today's show, either
on Patreon internationally or on 爱发电[Àifādiàn] in China. Here are some clips
from what you can find there...
[Clip 1]BO: Thankfully I was able to teach the history
(33:04):
of Rock and Roll in a course I developed calledAmerican Pop for Duke Kunshan University online.
[Clip 2]BO: The greatest show I've ever seen on Earth
is the ‘Mass Games’, a performance with100,000 performers.
OF (33:14):
You actually saw one? BO
[Clip 3]BO: You know, life is short, man. And I just
really want to engage and be involved. I wantto be at the proverbial party.
[Clip 4]BO: They're trying to be clever, but they're
actually not even being clever, because it'snot their own words or ideas. You're not engaging
with the person, you're obfuscating.[Clip 5]
BO (33:35):
But some people say “Writing about music is like dancing about architecture”. I love
the idea of dancing about architecture.OF: Yeah.
[End of Audio Clips]
And that's all for this week. Mosaic of Chinais me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny
Newell. Coming up is a catch-up with the tourmanager who accompanied DJ BO to North Korea,
Abe Deyo from Season 01 Episode 27. And I'llsee you again next week.
(34:02):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: It is really good to see you. I am calling
from a place which would be very familiarto you because you lived literally underneath
me for countless years. But you are one ofthose people who actually left Shanghai before
(34:25):
the weird turn of events in 2020. So tellme about where I find you today.
AD (34:31):
Lamma Island in Hong Kong. It's a smallish island off of the main Hong Kong Island, used
to be like a hippie colony back in like the70s and 80s. It's a nice place. A lot of beaches,
no roads, so there's no cars allowed.OF: Yeah, this is what people who don't know
Hong Kong might be surprised to hear, thatsuch a place exists, when they normally think
(34:53):
about the big bright lights and the harbour.But that's a really special little part of
Hong Kong, isn't it?AD: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, none of the
buildings can be over three storeys. Everything’slike little village houses, and a lot of green.
Actually, I have a bird that knocks on mywindow, like every day.
OF (35:11):
Well, that's the thing about Hong Kong, where you can be downtown, and then you can
be in that kind of nature so quickly. It'sone of the things that I miss about Hong Kong.
AD (35:19):
Oh, yeah. That's one of the reasons we chose to move down to Hong Kong.
OF (35:24):
Yeah. AD
far as work goes. You still have access toall of Southeast Asia. Pre-pandemic, let's
say. Right now, no.OF: Yes.
AD (35:35):
Yeah. OF
that, for people who didn't listen to ouroriginal episode, you were a tour leader for
the emerging artists arm of Live Nation. Tellme about your work.
Like most people, I was laid off last August.
OF (35:53):
Yeah. AD
too much money. And it's just not sustainable,as we saw as soon as something like this happens.
Totally. I mean, there are some industries that could weather the storm somewhat. But
you know, live music is not one of those industries.AD: Yeah, no. It could be another year before
they do large scale shows. But, it is whatit is.
(36:16):
Yeah, totally. And when things do return to whatever normal becomes, do you imagine
that you'll go back to the same business?Like, what's your plan?
AD (36:25):
Oh, yeah. So I've already been talking with a couple of companies who do tours and
shows here. So once things open, it'll probablybe doing what I was doing before. Otherwise,
we'll just be hanging out on Lamma.OF: Well, there are worse places. Come on.
There aren't many places where the littlebirds peck on the window and say “Good morning”.
(36:45):
Yeah. And now it's getting hot enough that we can go swimming again.
OF (36:49):
Oh, wow. AD
the same down here. We miss the creative atmosphere.And being able to travel around…
Interesting. AD
Well, I mean… Yeah, but listen, most people aren't doing that much travel. I think
it's just the idea of it that you miss. Imean, I remember when you were saying things
(37:10):
in your podcast, you were talking about 洛阳[Luòyáng] a lot, you were talking about
西宁 [Xīníng], talking about 武当 [Wǔdāng]mountain, I've been to none of those places,
since you said them in the podcast. So I don'tthink you need to be too jealous. Most people
are just stuck where they are in China too.AD: Yeah.
Well finally, we'll be releasing this catch-up interview, at the same time as I
(37:33):
released the interview with your referralfor Season 02, who was DJ BO.
AD (37:37):
Oh yeah. OF
DJ BO over the past months?AD: A little bit, but I also follow his group
chat on WeChat. He's always got somethingnew going on.
OF (37:48):
Well, Abe, it is really great to see you again. As soon as that border between Hong
Kong and the mainland opens up, you can expecta knock on your door on Lamma Island.
AD (37:57):
Oh, yeah. We'll go on a junk. OF
Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure.
[Trailer]BO: If you're only doing things that are safe,
what the hell are you doing? You know whatI'm saying?
OF (00:09):
Yep.
[Intro]OF: Welcome to Mosaic of China, a podcast
about people who are making their mark inChina. I’m your host, Oscar Fuchs.
If there's one word that I'd use to describetoday's guest DJ BO, it's 'eclectic'. So hold
on to your red hats, because this conversationgoes all over the place. As his name would
(00:30):
suggest, my guest today is a DJ, so the through-lineof our conversation is the topic of music,
and music appreciation, and the lifestyleof a peripatetic DJ based in China. But since
DJ BO has so many stories to tell, everythinghe says becomes a temptation to use him as
a proxy to talk about any manner of topics,and to go down any number of tangents. And
(00:55):
you'll hear that we do explore quite a fewof these tangents. But what I wanted to achieve
in this conversation was not to define thisperson just as the sum of his stories. I wanted
to get to a place where we can discuss somethingthat is relatable to many of us. And at the
end of Part 1, I think we get there.
DJ BO is a fast talker, so let me remind youthat you can follow the transcript of today's
(01:19):
show on https://mosaicofchina.com, or headto YouTube where you can follow the subtitles
in real time.
[Part 1]OF: So you go by the DJ stage name ‘DJ BO’,
correct?BO: ‘DJ BO: No stops, all caps; no brags,
just facts’.OF: Aye. I have the audio of the previous
person who nominated you. So why don't welisten quickly to that part.
BO (01:42):
I heard this, yeah. [Start of Audio Clip]
Abe DEYO (01:43):
I'd like to recommend a friend of mine, DJ BO. He's been here for about 10 years.
He's DJ’ed all over, like the first timeI really got to know him is when he asked
me if I wanted to go with him to North Koreato be his photographer. He was the first DJ
to perform there. So he has a lot of interestingstories.
(02:05):
[End of Audio Clip]OF: So tell me a little bit about your relationship
with Abe, that was Abe Deyo from Season 01.BO: He’s a scoundrel. Don't be fooled by
him, he’s a sweet guy, but he's a scoundreland a vagabond. And a great guy, though. It
was great having him as a kind of pseudo tourmanager for the North Korea project.
OF (02:22):
Well, that's one of the things I really want to talk about today.
BO (02:25):
Absolutely. OF
the first thing I ask you is, what objectdid you bring that in some way describes your
life here in China?BO: Well, I did come prepared. And I brought
a record by Esther Chan. It’s a vinyl record,12 inches, it's an LP. Esther Chan was an
artist in Hong Kong, and she put out thisLP, and it's amazing. One song I play all
(02:50):
the time is her cover of ‘Hit The Road Jack’,and also her cover of The Lord's Prayer.
OF (02:56):
Whoa. BO
Huh. BO
playing music - that I go out and find inthe places that I'm at - that's a big part
of my philosophy and what I do, so I broughta record of Esther Chan. And I call the the
sets that I do ‘border-breaks internationalfunky sounds’. And it's important to me
(03:17):
to reflect who I am and where I'm at, andI spend a lot of time in Hong Kong, and that's
a Hong Kong record. You know, as a DJ, whereyou are someone who is taking snidbits and
snatches from audio and music, putting itout in a new way - you're re-contextualising
things, I should say - to me, it's ridiculousthat right now, in Los Angeles and in London
(03:42):
and in Shanghai and Sri Lanka and Tokyo, youmight have a hip hop night, and all the DJ
sets are the same. To me, if you're in a differentplace, you should reflect where you're at.
I'm here in Shanghai, and I spend a lot oftime on the road, so I want to reflect that.
I see myself as an old school entertainer.I've always been into vintage gear. And, you
(04:05):
know, I consider myself an urbane vagrant.And this is a 宝安 [bǎo'ān] jacket that
I picked up in Shanghai at a supply store.OF: And can you explain what 宝安 [bǎo’ān]
means, to those who don’t know.BO: Oh the 宝安 [bǎo’ān] are the security
guys who work in different complexes, andyou can find them mostly sleeping in their
boxes.OF: Right.
BO (04:24):
That’s my jacket with the buttons. I got my bandanna here. Oh, the T-shirt is 武汉
[Wǔhàn] Prison, a legendary bar. I thinkI was the first DJ to perform there. And I
think it's the best bar in China.OF: Wow.
Then they opened 武汉 [Wǔhàn] Prison Tattoo. And right next to it, they opened
(04:44):
up one other store. I'm going to ask you,Oscar, what do you think it is? We have 武汉
[Wǔhàn] Prison Bar, 武汉 [Wǔhàn] PrisonTattoo, and…
OF (04:52):
Oh gosh. Mine’s such a mainstream guess, is it a restaurant?
BO (04:57):
武汉 [Wǔhàn] Prison Bagel, of course. OF
dammit.BO: I love that whole thing. So especially
in these times, I want to give a shout outto 武汉 [Wǔhàn]. And I got my hat, which
is kind of a signature thing for me, it’sthis red hat I picked up in Дархан [Darkhan],
which is a city I lived in for a few yearsin Mongolia. The mayor of Дархан [Darkhan]
(05:18):
gave me the highest Citizenship Award youcan give someone, for some of the charity
and other arts in contributions that I'vedone with Дархан [Darkhan]. It's got
the symbol of Дархан [Darkhan] on it.And I… people like when I wear the red hat,
it gets requested. I wish it was somethingthat was easier to get around, you know, it's
a big thick hat. Like, I wish I had a signaturething of like, you know, a ring. Because that,
(05:40):
I can stick in my pocket, and I can bringthat around. But if you're going to get DJBO,
you want to get the red hat.OF: Oh dear. Look, I think you've exemplified
what I am excited and scared about with ourentire interview. Because I've just asked
you one question, and you were able to talkfor five minutes. And you talked in a manner
which went through the city of 武汉 [Wǔhàn],the clothes that you're wearing, your experience
(06:04):
in Mongolia, and perhaps five other thingsthat I could jump off from, which is making
my head spin slightly.BO: Sorry.
OF (06:11):
So how the hell are we going to make this work for a 25-minute podcast? I guess the
thing that I wanted to latch on to mostlywith what you said was, the world is becoming
more globalised. And in that way, it's slightlydiluting different cultures, because as you
said, we're playing the same music in everybar.
BO (06:26):
Sure. OF
you - which I think is a really modern skillset- is the curatorial skillset. Like, to have
access to so much in terms of media, in termsof information, but the ability of one person
to actually curate that into something, whichis special; which says something about not
just the venue but you as a person; whichcreates an experience. Is that part of your
(06:50):
ethos?BO: Absolutely. It's that I love that when
you look at something with context - whichrequires some time and space - you’re able
to examine its place, and its effect, andreally what it is. So for example, right now
we can go to a movie at the movie theatre,and we can see the brand new movie. Or you
(07:13):
can choose the best movie of 1950 - whichhappens to be Sunset Blvd. - and you can look
at the careers of the people before and after;you can look at its place in culture, and
examine it. And I really see my interest inmusic being kind of concentric circles where
I would find an artist, and just kind of surroundthat artist, looking at his contemporaries
(07:34):
and looking at his influences.OF: Right.
Chuck Berry played shows with Jerry Lee Lewis. OK, well now we need to learn about
Jerry Lee Lewis. Chuck Berry's guitar wasinfluenced by Carl Hogan, who was the guitarist
in Louis Jordan And His Tympany Five. OK wellnow I need to look up Louis Jordan, I love
Louis Jordan, and Chuck Berry influenced otherpeople after him. So I love being able to
(07:55):
examine those things. And contextualisingthings, and understanding where they come
from, allows you to curate it better.OF: Yeah, because it's all of the texture,
the colour, the history, the connections,the influences. I'm always impressed with
people who have that kind of catalogue ofreferences. How do you catalogue it? How do
(08:16):
you know when to use a certain piece, fromwhich era, mixed with what modern piece of
music?BO: It's really hard to verbalise, you know.
It’s “Am I trying to get people to dance?”And then you need to look at the energy of
the song. And the beats per minute tends tobe something that DJs look too much at. But
it's an important thing in terms of smoothtransitions. If you play things that are completely
(08:39):
without context, people get lost. But also,if you play things that just people know,
and they're already familiar with, what'sthe purpose of you doing what you're doing
at all anyway? I'm not here to punish an audience,but I hope they pick up things from it. You
know, nothing makes me happier than when someonegoes up to a DJ booth, or wherever I'm at,
and says “Hey, what was that?” And thenI can connect them with the people.
OF (09:02):
Yeah. BO
wins in that situation.OF: Nice. And is that something which you
do, actually, intentionally. So let's say,you have one track that you know is going
to be popular, and then you place it nextto one where you know that it might not be
as popular, but you can try and get some leveragefrom that feeling?
BO (09:19):
Yeah, you know, you always have to balance. It's, you know, it's ‘the sugar and the
medicine' thing. Like, you know, you givethem something that they can go away with.
And I want someone to be able to listen towhat I do for two minutes and be able to say
“Oh, that's DJ BO”.OF: Yeah. Well, you have talked about where
you've lived, where you've been, where you'vetravelled. So this harks back to the introduction
(09:42):
that I got from Abe, which was when he saidthat you and he went to North Korea together.
Sure. OF
Oh, it's got to be, like seven years now, about.
OF (09:52):
Right. BO
but it's also just a very sexy topic becauseit's such an extreme situation. When I think
about North Korea, I think about - you know,because I was able to get away from the tour
group, because I was doing the DJ thing - wewent to the burger joint In North Korea, and
people were singing karaoke songs, which wasan amazing experience. And it was really just
(10:12):
a beautiful thing.OF: Wow. Well, let's just talk about North
Korea in terms of the DJ’ing experiencethen.
BO (10:17):
Yeah. OF
Very briefly, Simon who is the head honcho at Koryo Tours, had a friend who wanted to
do a tour in China, a musician. And I helpedhim out, and he said “How much do I need
to pay you?” I was like “I don't wantany money. I want to DJ in North Korea.”
He said “No, forget it.” I said “I wantto DJ in North Korea.” He said “No.”
I said “I want to DJ in North Korea.”He said “OK wait, let's think about this”.
(10:40):
And it went through a couple of differentiterations, but in the end they found a hotel
next to the one where other foreigners stayat, and a basement, a big karaoke area. We
were able to set it up, Abe made a beautifulposter for the event, actually. And I DJ’ed.
They said “Don't play any South Korean music.”I did. You know, the power went out a couple
times. You know, things started off slow.But then I would play something like ‘The
(11:03):
Twist’. And it was something were the expatsthere, they can grab North Koreans and show
them how to dance. Because the North Koreanpeople had never danced in an un-choreographed
way before.OF: Oh right, of course.
They were super sceptical about what to do, it was very much like, you know, a Kevin
Bacon movie from the 80s.OF: Right. And we have skirted around one
part of your background, which we haven'treally gone into.
(11:25):
Oh. OF
actually that you first came into Mongolia,correct?
So I went to the University of Florida, my home state, and less than a week after
I graduated, I was shipped off to Mongoliawith the Peace Corps.
OF (11:42):
OK. BO
I am, yeah. BO
Impossible’ style, because they don't tellyou the exact country until you receive it
in letter form. I opened it up, it said Mongolia.I had really no knowledge of Mongolia at all.
I was like “Sure, whatever”. They shippedme out to Mongolia. I did two years three
months, the full Peace Corps service. Onlyabout half the people make it through Peace
(12:05):
Corps Mongolia completely. And then I stayedfor a little less than another year working
at a nightclub, managing a place called ‘TheCross-Eyed Gypsy’. But at the end of it,
I was sick of getting beaten up by the ‘DayarMongol’, the Mongolian neo-Nazis. I was
sick of -40 degree winters. So I moved backto South Florida.
(12:25):
So how long had you been in Mongolia at that point?
BO (12:27):
About three years. OF
So I was back in South Florida. I worked as a dancer and an MC for Platinum Gold Entertainment,
danced at the halftime show at the Super Bowl,had a lot of fun. But I was sick of being
in South Florida with my family, Florida wasjust boring for me at that point. And so I
applied for jobs all around the world. Butthe first place to accept me was Disney English
in China.OF: Oh.
(12:48):
It was in Shanghai. OF
Mongolia down to China?BO: No, I had about six months in South Florida.
OF (12:54):
And it wasn't even on your radar to go to China?
BO (12:57):
It was not. So I ended up in Shanghai. And now I have more people living in my neighbourhood
in Shanghai than in the entire country ofMongolia.
OF (13:03):
Yeah, exactly. BO
is something called ARTGER, which I run witha friend named Javkhaa Ara. We show Mongolian
culture - some traditional thing, some modernthings, some fusion things - and we’ve got
200,000 subscribers on YouTube, and it's abig project that I do. And we're starting
ARTGER China now, where we're putting thingson 哔哩哔哩 [Bìlībìlī]. Because honestly
(13:24):
a big influence on that was, a lot of peoplein China were just stealing the content and
posting it down here anyway.OF: Oh is that right?
BO (13:30):
Yeah, so now we are trying to put a footprint here in China, stronger. But we're also filming
content here, and really just promoting Mongoliathings. You know, I've known other people
who have been all around the world, and I'vebeen told by multiple people that Mongolia
is just a place that has a deeper impact ina lot of ways. I know you've been to Mongolia,
I think you've expressed similar sentiments.OF: Yeah, it was like nowhere I've been before.
(13:54):
And then what is your take on the relationshipbetween China and Mongolia?
Well, that's a very sticky topic. Чингис хаан [Chinggis Khaan], 800 years ago,
starts the biggest land empire. Not ‘GenghisKhan’ like white boy Westerners say, Чингис
хаан [Chinggis Khaan]. His grandson isХубилай хаан [Kublai Khan], and
he comes down to China. And he makes Beijingthe capital of the empire.
OF (14:17):
Yep, 大都 [Dàdū]. BO
family kind of falls apart, very classic style.And you have China kind of reigning over Mongolia
then, essentially. Until in the early 1920s,you had Сүхбаатар [Sükhbaatar] bring
in the White Russians. Then from the 1920sto the very early 90s, you had the Russians
(14:38):
taking over. But during that period, whenthe Russians took over, they basically told
the Chinese “Hey look, lay off of Mongolia,but we're gonna cede the area now known as
Inner Mongolia to the Chinese”. So it waspart of Mongolia, and now it's China. And
it puts Mongolia in a difficult situation.Because, you know, for example, there's always
(14:58):
a new controversy every year, where there'sa new heritage instrument, and China will
claim a Mongolian instrument, for example.But Mongolians will say “Hey look, that's
our stuff, lay off”. And so Mongolia tryingto keep its own identity - while still relying
very heavily on the Chinese economy - makesthings very difficult. This is a very big,
(15:24):
intense topic that I'm only just scratchingthe surface of.
Yeah, absolutely. No, but as you're describing it, I can certainly see the tension there.
Because of course, the Mongolians of InnerMongolia, which is inside of China, they are
a protected minority group. And so that isa Chinese minority, they would say in China.
BO (15:43):
Yes. You know, I've talked with Mongolians who are visiting Inner Mongolia and they said
they faced racism. But I've also had popularrap songs by Mongolian artists that specifically
use derogatory terms for Chinese people intheir lyrics. In some ways, they kind of take
that on a nationalistic spirit as well.OF: Which you did touch on earlier. That was
(16:04):
one of the reasons that you were like “Oh,forget this. Let's go back to Florida”.
Yeah, and let's be clear, like, I refuse to romanticise things, I like to take things
as they are. So I'm not going to say thingsabout Mongolia that are just universally positive.
But I can say that because I love Mongolia.You just have to look at things truthfully,
you know, I want to still maintain my compassof what's good and right about the world,
(16:29):
while still respecting other perspectives.You know, it's like when you go to a show
that you're not invested in, it's very easyjust to sit back and clap because you don't
care. But if you really care about something,you're more engaged with it, and you're willing
to be angry or upset when it doesn't meetsome standards that you might have.
OF (16:47):
Do you prefer a ‘boo’ to a polite clap?
BO (16:50):
Oh, let's put it this way, I'll say I would rather have a reaction in some way than
no reaction at all. So a ‘boo’ to a politeclap… maybe. Every once in a while, you
need to clear the dance floor to make sureyou know you're still pushing things a bit.
You know what I'm saying?OF: Yep.
You know, it's the same thing with stand up comedy, or any other art, you know. If
(17:14):
you're only doing things that are safe, whatthe hell are you doing? If people go out and
they're their real selves, and they're representingwho they are, they can really do anything.
OF (17:23):
I want to get back to something you said earlier about your experience DJ’ing in
武汉 [Wǔhàn], and how you like the punkscene there, which I've heard is quite unique,
right?BO: Uh-huh.
Tell me a little bit about the scene in China. I'm most interested in perhaps what
the differences are between the differentregions that you've experienced.
BO (17:41):
Sure, well, you have different scenes that have developed in different cities. With
武汉 [Wǔhàn], it’s a punk city. In 成都[Chéngdū] you have hip hop, a couple of
really interesting clubs were built there,and it being a little bit more isolated, they
could get away with getting into a music andan art-form that in other places might have
(18:02):
been pushed to the side. Shanghai has alwaysbeen seen as less of an important city from
an artistic standpoint. It's always been seenas kind of a commercial city. There's been
some interesting things in the electronicmusic scene - some of the experimental music
scene - in Shanghai. Beijing, they have asound. It's the most developed in that way.
(18:25):
A lot of atypical chaotic sounds that aresustained, if that makes sense.
OF (18:30):
Yeah. BO
the Beijing scene. And when you're in Beijing,and it's smoggy, and there's the cars everywhere,
and it's just noisy, you can feel it in thecity.
And do they cross pollinate? So do you play Beijing music in 武汉 [Wǔhàn]? Do
you play Shanghai music in 成都 [Chéngdū]?BO: Of course, I think that's so important
(18:50):
to do, because again, it's reflecting my journey.One thing that I find super fascinating is,
places not taking pride in their local musicscene, and wanting to promote what they see
as being ‘international’ or ‘cool’.If I'm in Mongolia, there will be a Mongolian
promoter who will say to me specifically “Don'tplay Mongolian music”. Because they see
(19:13):
it almost as not as good as the internationalside. There's something beautiful about the
local music scenes. And to me, I want to reflectthat, that’s why I go digging in these specific
cities. I will go to a place like Dhaka, Bangladesh,and I'll say “Let's go music digging, let
me discover music”. And I'll be like "Thisis so great. I'm gonna play this around the
world”. And no one ever believes me, tillI send them a video of me doing it. There's
(19:37):
such great music that can be discovered, anda lot of it just doesn't make it into the
commercial space.OF: When you talk about going to Mongolia,
and they say “No, don't play Mongolian records”,I think that could be just “If I wanted
to have a Mongolian record, I would have gota Mongolian DJ. I’ve got you.”
BO (19:52):
Incorrect. OF
What you're saying seems logical. But the people in the local scenes won't play
the music. I was in Kuala Lumpur, and I playeda song by Too Phat called ‘KL’. And the
DJs who were in the city were like “Yeah,why don't we play this song more?” To me,
it's preposterous that people aren't playingthe music from their communities.
OF (20:13):
I think that you're at a stage where you've done it the right way around. Because there
are people who have a very linear career,and they experience one certain thing very
deeply in their 20s; and then by the timethey're in their 30s they have reached a certain
level in that career, which you might sayis ‘middle management’; and they're all
set for senior management in their 40s and50s. But then, someone like you, I think you're
(20:38):
still in the expanding phase, you are stillin the experiencing phase, you’re still
collecting experiences, you're still collectingideas. And then you’re gonna have a choice
at some point - which you haven't reachedyet - but something is going to coalesce.
Or you might just carry on being this person,chasing the next experience.
BO (20:57):
Well let's get deep here, Oscar, let's get it from the heart. So I worry that in
some way - this is something I reflect abouta lot, and I go back and forth on it - doing
what I do is a manifestation of being afraidof the settling down thing. It scares me,
in a way. And also - here's the tricky part- I've been in some situations where I couldn't
(21:21):
do things, because of mental illness periodswhere I've had to disengage with things. Now,
as someone who doesn't have a boss - wherepeople are not necessarily expecting me at
a certain time, unless I specifically makethe engagement - it's very easy to get lost
(21:41):
in my bedroom, and not come out. And no onewould know. There’s been times in my life
where I probably could have died alone inmy room, and no one would have known for quite
a long period of time. Because I'm engagedwith so many things, people might just be
used to not hearing from me for a while. I'velost some opportunities because of that. So
(22:04):
that's something that I've started to learn,how it manifests and what to do with it. And
I thought that as I got into my 30s, basedon things that I've read in literature, that
it would not be as difficult in some ways.But I found that not to be true. I find that
(22:26):
mental health issues don't necessarily goaway. So this past winter was one of the toughest
that I've had. And I did a ‘mini apologytour’ with some people, and there's some
people that I still need to talk to. And it'sa difficult subject, because I also know that
when I've talked with people about mentalhealth, a lot of people who don't experience
(22:47):
it really don't understand it. I find thatwhen I get really depressed, I find it very
difficult to talk with people at all. AndI really let people down who put faith in
me. Part of the manifestation of me havinga diversity of interests means that I can
always kind of shift my weight on the otherfoot a bit. It's a good and a bad thing. I
(23:10):
love DJ’ing and stuff. But it's also somethingthat makes it difficult to maintain relationships.
Friday nights and Saturday nights, those arethe times when I work.
OF (23:20):
Obviously, in that equation, you want someone who probably has similar hours.
BO (23:23):
Yeah, if you're that person hit me up on WeChat. I don’t know.
OF (23:27):
Thank you so much, I really appreciated that. I think we've only scratched the surface,
but from what you've shared, I personallycan understand your eclecticism, your intensity,
but actually just the love of what you do.BO: People can sense that I'm enthusiastic
(23:47):
about what I'm doing. And it's not somethingthat I fake in any sort of way. I really just
put myself out there, and they can tell. Andthat makes them happy, and it makes me happy,
so it's a great circle.OF: Agreed. Let's go on to Part 2.
BO (24:02):
Oh boy. Let's do it.
[Part 2]OF: So, Part 2.
Yes, the questions. OF
your favourite China-related fact.BO: In the 1930s, Shanghai was the fifth biggest
city in the world. And if you were a foreignperson in the concessions, the rules of China
(24:26):
did not apply to you. Shanghai has a greathistory of jazz, opium and whores. And I hope
to be keeping up that tradition, if not specifically,at least in spirit. It was built on the opium
trade, in large part. You know, in Americayou have what's called ‘the old weird America’,
but Shanghai has an ‘old weird’ past aswell. And I hope to manifest that in what
(24:49):
I do.OF: Do you have a favourite word or phrase
in Chinese?BO: Sure. My favourite one is related to a
big passion of mine. And it is the Chinesename of Elvis Presley. Are you familiar with
what it is?OF: I can't wait.
It’s 猫王 [Māo Wáng], the Cat King. OF
And I just love that sort of characterisation of Elvis.
OF (25:11):
Yeah. BO
person, 猫王 [Māo Wáng]. I mean, it'svery 50s slang, ‘cat’. You know, he was
that Memphis cat, and he's the king of rockand roll.
Exactly. BO
What's your favourite destination within China?
BO (25:25):
My favourite destination in China - we've touched upon this - is 武汉 [Wǔhàn]. It
was a city that I've been to more than anyother. I love Inferno in Shanghai, Temple
in Beijing. But 武汉 [Wǔhàn] Prison isthe coolest bar there. And every good bar
- every great bar, I should say - becomesthe personality of the manager. Her name is
(25:46):
Dong Dong, and she is an explosive characterthat can't really be characterised. Is she
20, is she 40? She wears these layers of clothing,she’s got these big dreadlocks, and she
cackles when she laughs, and 武汉 [Wǔhàn]Prison bar is almost a manifestation of who
she is.OF: I've never been, I've heard about the
(26:08):
river…BO: Yes. Because 武汉 [Wǔhàn], I mean,
you really have two cities there. It's a littlebit like Budapest.
OF (26:14):
Yeah. BO
All right, it’s on my list. I don't know when I'm going to go.
BO (26:19):
Do it. OF
the most, and what would you miss the least?BO: OK. Shanghai is such an international
city. And it's a place where I've met Dutchpeople, and Belgian people, and Italian people,
and Japanese people. I'm able to engage withso many different cultures and people here.
You can find some of that in New York andin London, but in Shanghai it just manifests
(26:43):
itself so much into the legacy and the historyof what Shanghai is.
OF (26:47):
Yeah. BO
that sort of policy of not engaging with thingsthat you find in China. The idea that when
there's a conflict, everyone stands back andwatches. When there's a problem, you just
kind of move away from things and you don'tengage with things. That’s one of the things
(27:11):
I don't like about China.OF: That's so interesting. Is that just a
function of this system of government? Isit a function of history? Is it a function
of culture? Like, what is that?BO: I would say that's what it is.
Uh-huh. I know which part you nodded the hardest at.
BO (27:26):
Yes, yes. OF
you about life in China?BO: Recently, I just got an offer to go DJ
in a city in 江苏 [Jiāngsū] province thatI never heard of called ‘Zhenjiang’…
‘Zhanjing’… I don't even know. But like,I thought I was at the end of going to new
cities in China. And out of nowhere, I gota hit up from someone who had seen me at a
(27:50):
party in 南京 [Nánjīng]. And they said“We want you to come to our city” and
I said “Sure”. So maybe sometimes I getcomplacent, and I forget about things like
that. But I love that. That's great.OF: Where's your favourite place to eat or
drink or hang out?BO: Well, on 定西路 [Dìngxī Lù] by 新华路
[Xīnhuá Lù] there's a cafe on the secondfloor there. And I consider that my office,
(28:13):
because you have food there, there’s goodinternet, it's a good people-watching spot,
so I generally have meetings at that spot.My friends know it as my office.
OF (28:22):
Oh nice. BO
my thing there.OF: What’s it called?
BO (28:28):
It’s the City Shop, which is like the international market there.
OF (28:32):
Yeah. BO
floor that no-one knows about or goes to.OF: No.
BO (28:36):
And you can order sandwiches there. They have food ready to eat there. They don't promote
it. And it's close to my apartment.OF: And you look on to the supermarket, or…
Yes. OF
you've made in China?BO: I mean, so much music and records that
I've bought while here. And I love my 宝安[bǎo'ān] jacket as well.
OF (28:58):
What is it, is there one supplier that supplies all of the 宝安 [bǎo'ān] jackets?
BO (29:01):
You know, I always try to keep this mysterious, but I'm going to engage with this. So they
have like, army surplus stores where you canpick up a hat, and jacket, and I've got a
whole collection of things there.OF: Don't worry, I think you're safe. I think
most people won't go out of their way to dothat.
Cool. Good. OF
OK, now let's talk about this Oscar. OF
(29:25):
Got it? OF
Well, let's talk about this. I invented something called ‘poetremes’.
OF (29:31):
Oh. BO
in the public domain., and I'll take snapshotsand I'll cut it up into clips that I can then
use to make my own WeChat stickers. And nowI have a huge collection of them.
Very cool. What is your go-to song to sing at KTV?
BO (29:50):
Chuck Berry and ‘Johnny B. Goode’ is such a great song, which has a great spirit
to it; There's a story; people know it fromBack to the Future; It’s got a very very
easy chorus for people to sing along to; andit's great.
OF (30:04):
That's true. Very nice. And finally, what other China-related media or sources of information
do you rely on?BO: I'm really interested in the history of
Shanghai nightlife. There's the Andrew Fieldbook, ‘Shanghai Nightscapes’. Super useful.
Very cool. Well, thank you so much, DJ BO. And the last thing that I would ask anyone
(30:26):
sitting in that chair is, for the next seasonof Mosaic of China, who do you recommend that
I interview?BO: I really love the Mongolian community.
And I find that in China, especially there'sa lot of confusion about who they are. They're
not Chinese, they have their own culture andstuff. And there's a very great designer named
Ruby, who's done some very interesting work.And I think it's important for that expat
(30:51):
community to be recognised as part of theMosaic of China. So I would recommend Ruby.
Oh, great. Then I can really talk about Mongolia for the whole episode.
BO (30:59):
She's a very interesting person, otherwise. But if you wanted to, you can.
OF (31:03):
Of course she is. Thank you so much. BO
[Outro]OF: So I double checked with DJ BO, and the
city in 江苏 [Jiāngsū] Province wherehe was invited to DJ was 镇江 [Zhènjiāng],
which it turns out is most famous for itsvinegar. It's right next to 南京 [Nánjīng],
and it was actually the capital of 江苏[Jiāngsū] Province from 1928 to 1949 while
(31:27):
南京 [Nánjīng] served as the capital ofthe whole Republic of China. Also on the subject
of cities, when DJ BO mentioned that Shanghaiis seen as less of an artistic city in China
and more of a commercial city, that was anecho from a similar comment made by the fashion
journalist Casey Hall in last week's episode.But there's also another hidden connection
(31:50):
to last week's episode, because DJ BO updatedme that - in a development from what he said
in our recording - in the past few monthsthe Chinese DJs he comes across are now starting
to take more pride in music from China, especiallyChinese hip hop. So this mirrors the growing
trend that Casey had been seeing with Chinesepeople taking more pride in Chinese fashion
(32:11):
brands too. And there was one final connectionI wanted to mention, DJ BO is the second Floridian
in Season 2, can you remember who the otherperson from Florida was? 5-4-3-2-1, it was
Sean Harmon, the CEO of the Belgian beer companyDuvel Moortgat from Episode 09.
(32:33):
As always, you can check out all the accompanyinggraphics to today's episode on social media.
Just type in mosaicofchina on Instagram orFacebook, and the right page will appear.
Otherwise add me on WeChat using my ID (32:43):
mosaicofchina, and I'll add you to the group there myself.
And there's also plenty more from our conversationin the PREMIUM version of today's show, either
on Patreon internationally or on 爱发电[Àifādiàn] in China. Here are some clips
from what you can find there...
[Clip 1]BO: Thankfully I was able to teach the history
(33:04):
of Rock and Roll in a course I developed calledAmerican Pop for Duke Kunshan University online.
[Clip 2]BO: The greatest show I've ever seen on Earth
is the ‘Mass Games’, a performance with100,000 performers.
OF (33:14):
You actually saw one? BO
[Clip 3]BO: You know, life is short, man. And I just
really want to engage and be involved. I wantto be at the proverbial party.
[Clip 4]BO: They're trying to be clever, but they're
actually not even being clever, because it'snot their own words or ideas. You're not engaging
with the person, you're obfuscating.[Clip 5]
BO (33:35):
But some people say “Writing about music is like dancing about architecture”. I love
the idea of dancing about architecture.OF: Yeah.
[End of Audio Clips]
And that's all for this week. Mosaic of Chinais me, Oscar Fuchs, with artwork by Denny
Newell. Coming up is a catch-up with the tourmanager who accompanied DJ BO to North Korea,
Abe Deyo from Season 01 Episode 27. And I'llsee you again next week.
(34:02):
[Catch-Up Interview]OF: It is really good to see you. I am calling
from a place which would be very familiarto you because you lived literally underneath
me for countless years. But you are one ofthose people who actually left Shanghai before
(34:25):
the weird turn of events in 2020. So tellme about where I find you today.
AD (34:31):
Lamma Island in Hong Kong. It's a smallish island off of the main Hong Kong Island, used
to be like a hippie colony back in like the70s and 80s. It's a nice place. A lot of beaches,
no roads, so there's no cars allowed.OF: Yeah, this is what people who don't know
Hong Kong might be surprised to hear, thatsuch a place exists, when they normally think
(34:53):
about the big bright lights and the harbour.But that's a really special little part of
Hong Kong, isn't it?AD: Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, none of the
buildings can be over three storeys. Everything’slike little village houses, and a lot of green.
Actually, I have a bird that knocks on mywindow, like every day.
OF (35:11):
Well, that's the thing about Hong Kong, where you can be downtown, and then you can
be in that kind of nature so quickly. It'sone of the things that I miss about Hong Kong.
AD (35:19):
Oh, yeah. That's one of the reasons we chose to move down to Hong Kong.
OF (35:24):
Yeah. AD
far as work goes. You still have access toall of Southeast Asia. Pre-pandemic, let's
say. Right now, no.OF: Yes.
AD (35:35):
Yeah. OF
that, for people who didn't listen to ouroriginal episode, you were a tour leader for
the emerging artists arm of Live Nation. Tellme about your work.
Like most people, I was laid off last August.
OF (35:53):
Yeah. AD
too much money. And it's just not sustainable,as we saw as soon as something like this happens.
Totally. I mean, there are some industries that could weather the storm somewhat. But
you know, live music is not one of those industries.AD: Yeah, no. It could be another year before
they do large scale shows. But, it is whatit is.
(36:16):
Yeah, totally. And when things do return to whatever normal becomes, do you imagine
that you'll go back to the same business?Like, what's your plan?
AD (36:25):
Oh, yeah. So I've already been talking with a couple of companies who do tours and
shows here. So once things open, it'll probablybe doing what I was doing before. Otherwise,
we'll just be hanging out on Lamma.OF: Well, there are worse places. Come on.
There aren't many places where the littlebirds peck on the window and say “Good morning”.
(36:45):
Yeah. And now it's getting hot enough that we can go swimming again.
OF (36:49):
Oh, wow. AD
the same down here. We miss the creative atmosphere.And being able to travel around…
Interesting. AD
Well, I mean… Yeah, but listen, most people aren't doing that much travel. I think
it's just the idea of it that you miss. Imean, I remember when you were saying things
(37:10):
in your podcast, you were talking about 洛阳[Luòyáng] a lot, you were talking about
西宁 [Xīníng], talking about 武当 [Wǔdāng]mountain, I've been to none of those places,
since you said them in the podcast. So I don'tthink you need to be too jealous. Most people
are just stuck where they are in China too.AD: Yeah.
Well finally, we'll be releasing this catch-up interview, at the same time as I
(37:33):
released the interview with your referralfor Season 02, who was DJ BO.
AD (37:37):
Oh yeah. OF
DJ BO over the past months?AD: A little bit, but I also follow his group
chat on WeChat. He's always got somethingnew going on.
OF (37:48):
Well, Abe, it is really great to see you again. As soon as that border between Hong
Kong and the mainland opens up, you can expecta knock on your door on Lamma Island.
AD (37:57):
Oh, yeah. We'll go on a junk. OF
Yeah. Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure.
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